#118479 by rowman on 12/06 at 12:55 pm
(94 comments total)

RE: #118472 by Tony Wicher on 12/06 at 12:10 pm

“Oh Tony. I had high hopes that you would be able to exhibit some sort of intellectual capacity and dialog on a sensible, logical level. Clearly I was wrong.

The best you can do is throw around wild and irresponsible assertions born from conspiracy theorist.”

What “conspiracy theorist”? You mean Ilan Pappe? That’s just a typical smear. Again I ask you, find me one sentence in that book which is false, and at least present a coherent argument for its falsity, and I will respect you. I challenge you. I say Pappe’s work is the latest in historical scholarship. The Zionist myths have been exploded, haven’t you heard? Zionism is glimmering before your eyes.

#118500 by rowman on 12/06: “Israel has made multiple concessions towards peace. They have all been rejected and in return, the Arabs send nothing but violence and war. How can you blame Israel…”

All of your “proofs” are meaningless if you (and Israel) do not now seek a real peace, rowman.

Whatever the reasons, living in peace is not achieved by “settlements” on other peoples’ land or by the use or threat with guns and tanks and bombs.

Israel must find a way and it is easily found if it genuinely wants peace. The solution is not “the final solution” learned from the German Nazis.

#118500 by rowman

No, I attempt to find objective media.  It’s very hard in America.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/01/isrlpa16310.htm

RE: #118490 by PatrickHenry on 12/06 at 2:09 pm
“The statistics point out that Israelis kill alot more innocent Palistinians than Palestinians kill innocent Israelis”
That’s funny, there was a source referenced here earlier that showed the complete opposite. But you must be referencing Muslim sources where every Muslim is a victim and every Jew killed is an “enemy combatant”. Or do you just make stuff up?

RE: #118497 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/06 at 2:41 pm
It is the Arab policy that prevents peace. Israel has made multiple concessions towards peace. They have all been rejected and in return, the Arabs send nothing but violence and war. How can you blame Israel?

1dree5:
Not one breathe of truth from your lips. I have proven too many of your lies and don’t read your nonsense.

#118490 by PatrickHenry on 12/06: “...rowman - As with a select lot of posters here at truthdig you have added “Jewish” to my criticism of Israel…”

Something in this repetitive dialogue of mutual criticism and old hatreds suggests that everybody here would be better reading some Buddhist literature for a while - at least until they understand the meaning of “loving kindness” and “compassionate heart” and “peace and harmony”, uhh.

Rowman’s “don’t blame the Jewish people for the lack of peace”  is a weak and pathetic excuse, indeed…....

#118438 by rowman

As with a select lot of posters here at truthdig you have added “Jewish” to my criticism of Israel, inferring that my criticism against Israel is against jews or the jewish people, moreover, if Israel was truely democratic the fact that an Israeli citizen is or is not a jew would not be an issue.

The statistics point out that Israelis kill alot more innocent Palistinians than Palestinians kill innocent Israelis.  It is easy to see why this injustice angers Israels neighbors and has a growing negative affect with Americans here at home, after all the cluster bombs killing Lebanese civilians today were made in America and given to Israel.

My beef is with the American media, who for the most part are owned and controlled by jewish americans, devoutly religious or atheist, they clearly put a spin on the news when it involves Israel, either by embellishing, misreporting or simply not reporting events.

http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/

RE: #118472 by Tony Wicher on 12/06 at 12:10 pm

Oh Tony. I had high hopes that you would be able to exhibit some sort of intellectual capacity and dialog on a sensible, logical level. Clearly I was wrong.

The best you can do is throw around wild and irresponsible assertions born from conspiracy theorist. Given your choice or reading, I think it is fair to conclude that you have never looked at both sides of the argument nor have you ever performed any fact checking or research on your own. A little research would reveal the fake quotes by Ben-Gurion in your book. A sensible person would have to question the credibility of the book overall thus revealing the historical errors and fabrications.

David ben Gurion is quoted as saying lots of things. Most of things attributed to him are misquotes and lies made up by pseudo-historians trying to sell books by means of saying things that are contentious. Validate the Quotes!

It is to be noted that the dispute involving the creation of Israel involved substantial violence by the Arab side. Jews also were involved in violence. People were displaced on both sides, not just the Arab side.

Not much noted is that 100,000 Jews who were displaced during the 1948 war from Jerusalem and 20 other towns and villages in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Moreover, another 756,000 Jews were displaced from the surrounding Arab countries over the course of years during and immediately following the war.

The Jews did not expel all of the Arabs. Instead, there was a war and some Arabs were expelled. Many Arabs stayed. Many participated in the Arab war to annihilate the Jews. Many fled to avoid fighting. Wealthy people mostly left before the civil war that began after UN 181 was passed. Many were moved out (e.g. in Haifa) by the British. Many left on the suggestion of Muslim leaders who claimed that Muslims should not live under “Jewish” rule (e.g. Joffa), etc.

The only ethnic cleansing going on here is the admitted purpose of the Muslim nations to annihilate the Jews! Prove to me one fact that shows Israel having this same position.

The Arab position is clearly ethnic cleansing but you do not criticize them! Instead, you devise conspiracy theories to accuse the Jews where no such crime exists.

Re #118437 by rowman on 12/06 at 8:01 am

“The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, is no different from his others. It invents new “facts” and fake quotes by Ben-Gurion and others that were never said.”

I am sure you never read the book, but are just repeating what somebody told you about it. You have not offered one word of substantiation for any of of your assertions. If you can find even one sentence of that book which you can prove is false, I will bow before you. But you actually have to prove it, not just say it’s false.

The fact is, you are a fundamentalist religious fanatic.

RE: #118320 by PatrickHenry on 12/05 at 3:44 pm

My selections from the Qur’an were specifically indented to prove a point.

Israel’s neighbors have no intention of peace. They will not permit it as their law prevents it. They cite these verses specifically as the justification of their continued war against the Jewish people (and anyone else who does not follow Islamic law).

Don’t blame the Jewish people for the lack of peace. Nothing in their doctrine tells them to create war with Muslims, to kill them or murder them for not believing as they do. They are and have been in a defensive posture because of the Arab policy towards Israel.

When you imply that the bipartisan support of Israel in Congress is a result of Jewish influence, you function as classic conspiracy theorist that attributes decisions to nefarious alliances rather than to the choices of a democratic electorate. Moreover, you portray U.S. politicians as being either too incompetent to understand America’s national interest, or so undutiful that they would sell it to any pressure group inferring a profound corruption within the U.S. democratic institution. If this were true, the vast wealth of the oil rich nations would certainly have the upper hand and we would see policy that is anti Israel.

There is something quite convenient and discomfortingly familiar about the tendency to blame a group of Jews for the overall direction of an increasingly controversial U.S. policy. Indeed, like exaggerated claims of Jewish power at other times in history, such an explanation absolves the real powerbrokers and assigns blame to convenient scapegoats.

RE: #118322 by Tony Wicher on 12/05 at 3:45 pm
Just to be clear, It was you who inferred “millions” of residents during 1890 not 1947…

I am not biased towards a Zionist position. My position is held firm on fact and 15 years of research as a prior atheist.

To accept the Hamas position you have to dispose of tangible archeological evidence that substantiates the biblical accounts and proves that the Jews held possession of this land as so stated. Many experts on both sides agree with this.

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, is no different from his others. It invents new “facts” and fake quotes by Ben-Gurion and others that were never said. Pappe’s work should be ignored not because he is a communist or an anti-Zionist, but because he is a bad historian and what he writes is not history, but historical fiction. His work is proven to be full of error and historically inaccurate. To accept his work without having done your homework to substantiate his claims and reconcile with factual evidence is not rational.

There are mountains of archeological data and evidence to substantiate the biblical accounts. It cannot be ignored simply because you choose to be ignorant and lazy about it. To claim it is mythology is profoundly ignorant.

#118326 by Tony Wicher on 12/05: “...the idea that “Israel” is the original homeland of the Jews is based on the Bible….. justify taking over and expelling the people who have been living there ever since (and for that before…”

This is the fantasy that so-called Christians have fooled themselves into believing, TW. They might as well have chosen Sikh or Japanese Shinto as a religion and history to base their old testament on if they were so hard up. All of these users have one thing in common - they are all “chosen by God” and see themselves as the “one and only” just as the Jews.

But the biblical story was that the Jews “emigrated” from Egypt. That puts the Palestinian Arabs as the first occupiers of the land that we know of - and it was never originally called “Israel”! Its all so much biased garbage, really, to suit their own precious point of view.

#118300 by 1dree5 on 12/05: “OLMERT WARNS OF END OF ISRAEL : OLMERT WARNS OF IRAN : GOES ON & ON…”

Oh, I wish you would STOP using upper case capitals so that we could actually READ what you are posting, 1dree5 (and why the change from “1drees”?).......

Also the idea that “Israel” is the original homeland of the Jews is based on the Bible, which rational, 21st century educated people understand is mythology of uncertain provanance and no definite relation to historical fact. There is no proof outside this mythology which you and others believe that there was ever a “Solomon” or a “David”, not one shard of pottery. No doubt there were Jewish tribes living in the area 2500 years ago, but the idea that this could justify taking over and expelling the people who have been living there ever since (and for that before) is just too ridiculous to comtemplate.

Tr #118143 by rowman on 12/05 at 7:46 am

rowman,

All I hear from you is Zionist talking points. I feel like I might as well talk to the Israeli security fence. This idea that Palestine was a sparsely populated country with 250,000 people as of 1947 is just false. If you happen to have any sources to justify this statement (other than the unspported statements of some other Zionists, or impressions of Mark Twan circa 1900) please produce them. I bet you havent read Ilan Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. I accept it as historically accurate. It is a book of great scholarly merit. What do you have to offer?

#118306 by rowman

Propaganda leaflets are nothing new, the zionist controlled media in this country had its period proclaiming everything was “Islamofacist” I glad to say it was a flash in the pan in that I haven’t heard it for over a week.

Your select interpetation of Quran passages can be countered by passages of the old testament where everyone was put to the “ban”.  Killing of men, women and children was commonplace by simply being from another tribe and belief.  Israel is a theocracy, as the arabs in that country are underrepresented and church and state are one.

Israel has a right to exist but so does Palistine, I’m tired as a U.S. taxpayer funding an “ally” who brings ill will upon the U.S. by their unilateral actions, defing U.N. resolutions and as a foreign state has undo influence in our mainstream media and congress, the latter which I hope to remedy on election day with the removal of Steny Hoyer, the Israel firster that he is.

RE: #118300 by 1dree5 on 12/05 at 2:35 pm

You cry so many lies I do not even know where to start with you. The order by the UN to change a textbook is a complete and utter fabrication!

A new textbook is teaching Palestinian kids to hate Israel and think of fighting Israelis as a holy Islamic duty..
The textbooks, published in December and distributed in the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian students, deny Israel’s existence and teach kids — many as young as 11 — that Palestinians are in the midst of a holy war between Muslims and their enemies, according to a Palestinian Media Watch report entitled “From nationalist battle to religious conflict.”

Why does this text book not allow for a Palestinian child to accept Israel as a neighbor?  Because your religion does not permit it! You do not want peace. You want blood, murder and rape!

Everything you say is a lie!

RE: #117939 by 1drees on 12/04 at 11:08 am

Do you really expect me to take you seriously? I have proven you lie. You continue to lie and spread false propaganda. You lack any credibility -as proven- and type as though you’re fueled by an unquenchable hate. Don’t you think your behavior (and that of your Hamas brethren) is a little demonic? Being that your false prophet often confused Satan for G-d, I must assume that your sponsor of hate and murder is demonically influenced.

Want the TRUTH? Here it is. The only hindrance to peace in the Middle East is Islam:

The Qur’an commands Muslims to fight Jews and Christians.
“Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Surah At-Taubah 9:29)
“Jihad (holy fighting in allah’s cause) is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not.” (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:216)

The evidence shows that Muhammad couldn’t always tell the difference between revelations from God and revelations from Satan. The most famous example of Muhammad’s inability to distinguish the true from the false is the embarrassing account of the notorious “Satanic Verses”:

This passage shows:
1. Muhammad’s reception of revelations was influenced by his personal desires;
2. He received a revelation from Satan;
3. He proclaimed the revelation as a message from Allah; (WOW!!!!)
4. He and his followers bowed down in honor of receiving the revelation; and
5. God’s response was, in effect, “Don’t worry about it Muhammad. All prophets proclaim Satanic messages from time to time.” (Proves he was a false prophet!)

dat yo tudth cuz.

RE: #118014 by Tony Wicher on 12/04 at 7:01 pm

There are many “traditional” arguments on this subject but I find yours to be a new one for me. I am glad to hear that you are not one of those who believes that Israel controls the United States. This position is just complete nonsense.

“The reality is that the Zionist project since 1890 has to create an artificial state with a supermajority of Jews. In order to create this state millions of the original residents were expelled from the land where they had their roots.”

Your summation is simply not correct and I think you are confusing your time frames. The land at that time was fairly desolate and held a very small population (less than 250k – not “millions”). Ironically, a significant number of the population at that time was Jewish. It is not artificial, Israel is the original homeland.
Those that you refer to as being “expelled”… Are you referring to those who fled after their failed attack on the Jewish residents? Or perhaps you’re referring to the Jews who were expelled from other countries such as Spain? Or are you referring to the Jews that were forced to leave Israel originally? Please expound.

“No state that is not a democracy has a “right to exist”…”

Israel operates under a parliamentary system as a democratic country So your issue is not with Israel but rather her Arab neighbors Theocracy. Sounds like you are also ready to challenge China, Cuba, etc. but I am glad that Israel is not the issue.

“…unless it ends Zionism”

I think you are confused about what Zionism is. There is much propaganda about it but let’s clarify. Zionism is simply a desire for the Jewish people return to their homeland. If you really want to learn more about it, I would recommend http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm
mbs-026 Zionism: What It Is and What It Is Not

RE: #117974 by cyrena on 12/04 at 3:47 pm

Hello cyrena. I was specifically addressing the Alison Weir platform as so mentioned earlier and cited as a resource. Her platform is based on Israel not having a right to exist…

Nonetheless, I am glad that you recognize the truth in the matter.

Best regards

#117709 by 1drees on 12/03 at 11:03 am: “...the Israeli flag which is a statement of its plans…... The flag has two colors blue & white, it has two blue stripes running horizontally, one each on the top side and the bottom side and in the middle the blue star of David Against a white base…..... Ok now understand this, the blue star of david is the Isreali people and two blue stripes are two RIVERS, the top stripe being the RIVER TIGRIS in IRAQ and the bottom stripe is the RIVER NILE IN EGYPT and the enclosing area is the state of Israel , the land of ZIONISTIC JEWS and that they will try to work their wy to te land as designated by their FLAG .....ie extending from IRAQ TO EGYPT in their madness and who knows whether they will survive this folly of a dream but they are bent on gambling at all COSTs…........ so Expansionism is a very basic Isreali dream for which they have always been preparing militarily, ever noticed the amounts of weapons Israelis import every year…”

Such is nationalism, 1drees, but in reality, Israel is getting oil and water piped through Lebanon from Turkey. There is nothing they will stop at to protect those vital lifelines.

But the “star of David”, like the swastika, is a far more ancient symbol than people realize and is not “owned” by the Jews even though they use it as a national and religious symbol.

The “hexagram” can be traced back to ancient Hindu Tantric religious texts and the Anahata chakra inparticular as well as a basis for yantras http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Anahata.htm

Re #117919 by rowman on 12/04 at 10:04 am

I like to think I am reasonable and objective. You don’t sound that way to me. What you sound like is some brochure put out by the Israeli government, or maybe a George W. Bush press conference. I’m sure you really believe this stuff, but it is a totally false picture of reality. The reality is that the Zionist project since 1890 has to create an artificial state with a supermajority of Jews. In order to create this state millions of the original residents were expelled from the land where they had their roots. This project is fundamentally racist and colonialist. Racism and colonialism were normal in 1890, but in 2007 it is an anachronism. The state of Israel was born in blood and in injustice.

No state that is not a democracy has a “right to exist”, whether Israel or any other country. That is, no state has a right to be undemocratic and to violate human rights. That not does mean that everybody in such a state should be killed or expelled; what it means is that democratic countries, such as the United States, should put pressure on all such states, including Israel, to become democracies. Israel will never be a democracy as long as the requirement for a Jewish supermajority is more important than democracy and human rights. It is time for the United States to stop enabling Israeli militarism and oppression of Palestinians.

I am not one of those who believes that Israel controls the United States. Israel is a client of the United States. It has been faithfully doing as the U.S. has told it to do for the last 60 years. If the U.S. instead adopts a peace-oriented, non-imperialist foreign policy and tells Israel that it will not support it diplomatically, militarily or economically unless it ends Zionism and institutes democracy, Israel will also comply, no matter how loud it screams. If it agrees to do so, the United States should offer its full support in making the transition.

#117906 by rowman
•  Much of the debate is centered on one common issue. Does Israel have a sovereign right to the land or as some frame it, a right to exist?

Rowman,
I fear you do the very same thing of which you have accused others, is misstating the real issue here, on what the debate has been ‘created’ to allegedly ‘center’ on. This is an intentional misrepresentation on issues of sovereignty, as well as the framing of it as “Israel’s right to exist”.
So, while non of us can dispute that it’s turned ‘complicated’, this suggestion of yours should be debunked (as we’ve had to do countless times) for the misrepresentation that it is.
There is NO ‘debate’ about Israel’s ‘right to exist’ on the territory, and within the borders that were defined the International body in 1948. And, they didn’t give the land to Israel based on any previous title to it, based on any biblical interpretations. Still, in terms of the actual land, and what holds then, and today, the property was ‘given’ to Israel. So, nobody, (including the Palestinians, whether they like it or not) is debating that issue at this point. We can all read, (including the Palestinians) and so the issue is academic. An international body assigned a certain portion of land that had been previously occupied by a combination population of Arabs, Jews and Christians. (though we know that the Jews and the Christians were in the minorities until sometime around 1940, give or take)

The debate now, centers around two issues. The first is that they should leave any occupied territories that were NOT part of the original gift in 1948. If the first part of that is accomplished, the second part of the issue: did they have a right to kick out every single non-Jew living in the area at the time, and do any of them have a right to return, is the more complicated, but not really as much a ‘sovereignty’ issue as you’d like to claim, since nobody is trying to take any of that original land away from them, or tell them how to operate politically, within that space. Consequently, if the first part of the issue were solved, (and long ago) there probably would not BE a second issue, though I’m certain that there will always be some Palestinians who will want to return to the space that they occupied for thousands of years before they were forcibly removed by the creation of a Jewish state.

STILL, if the Israelis would simply go back to what was originally designated to them, (the first part of the problem) that would clearly set a way toward reducing the ongoing destruction and misery that is wiping out so much of humanity in the area, because….based on very basic human rights, they ALL deserve that.

Israel’s ‘right to exist’ was already codified in 1948, and the borders designating that space for them to ‘exist’ were built into that same law. If they ever decide to simply follow those laws that gave them the ‘right to exist’, they’d be all the better off for it.

RE: #117842 by 1drees on 12/03 at 11:33 pm

You submit false information… again. I will not waste my time correcting all of your errors so lets address just one.

The “Mossad Motto” is derived from Proverbs.

Former:
“For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war.” - Proverbs 24 6. It is commonly misquoted “By way of deception thou shalt make war”, which is the title of a book by Victor Ostrovsky critical of the organization.

New:
The motto was recently changed to Proverbs XI, 14:
“Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.”

I would say “go read the verses yourself” but we already know where your credibility lies….Cuz

RE: #117745 by Robert on 12/03 at 1:47 pm
Will not waste my time disputing her statistics. Doing so would give them some sort of credibility. They are based on a faulty premise thus invalidating them as a whole.
Nothing in your posts cause me to believe you really understand the issues or have fist hand knowledge. You draw from anti Semitic sources and attempt to submit propaganda as fact.

You want to discuss truth? Well let’s look at the data behind your last source…

Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers.
Killed when participating in hostilities.
Killed while standing next to rocket launchers that had fired Qassams at Israel.
Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers who came to arrest him.
Killed during an operation to arrest wanted men in Ras al-‘Ein neighborhood.
Killed when he was about to fire Qassam rockets at Israel.
Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers near the the Gaza perimeter fence.
Killed while passed near armed people during incursion into the area.
Killed while infiltrating a settlement.
Killed in an exchange of gunfire after she tried to infiltrate the Rafah Yam settlement.
Killed during an attempt to plant explosives near the settlement.

It goes on and on… In most cases, those that were killed were not innocent.  This must be the truth you reference.

I will not dispute that there are innocent casualties; it’s a very difficult environment to secure for the safety of Israel and well as “Palestinians”.  You also ignore their humanitarian efforts in the region.  And what about the “Palestinians” who live in Israel and do not agree with the extremists? Ever talk to them? Do you even understand the drivers behind the extremist you so support?

Tony,
You seem like a reasonable person and I appreciate that. It takes an objective mind to be able to filter through much of the non sense posted by those so mentioned.  I do not want to turn this into a debate about Alison Weir. She is biased towards one side of the argument and like most activists, uses statistics and interprets data to further her agenda. Let’s at least be honest about it.

Much of the debate is centered on one common issue. Does Israel have a sovereign right to the land or as some frame it, a right to exist?

Alison, and many here, hold the thought that “Israel is occupying land that does not belong to it”. This is the platform that all her data is filtered through. There are no facts to support this.

Others are of the opinion that they do have a sovereign right to the land. This is based on historical facts and archeological evidence as well as international agreements in more recent years.

For those opposed to Israel’s right to exist, I challenge you to map the standards and document the logic this is based on from generally accepted arguments supporting this position. Then apply this to every other nation in existence and hold them to the same standards. Then ask yourself if the United States has a right to exist? How about Slovakia? Turkmenistan? Namibia? etc. etc. etc.

In fact, Israel boasts a far stronger “right to exist” than does its American counterpart (or many other nations) because of its ancient claim to the disputed land, and long-standing endorsement by international organizations.
In order to place these realities in proper perspective, it’s first necessary to reject some thirty years of wildly irresponsible anti-Israel propaganda. First of all, it’s not true in any sense that the modern Jewish State ever supplanted or destroyed an existing nation of “Palestine.” From the time of definitive destruction of the ancient Jewish commonwealth in 70 A.D., the land that comprises the current State of Israel never enjoyed independent existence but, rather, passed back and forth among competing world empires—Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader, Mamaluke, Ottoman and British. Over the course of more than 1,800 years, no nation with the name “Palestine” appeared on any maps, anywhere. The distinguished Arab-American historian Philip Hitti, professor at Princeton University, testified to the Anglo American Committee in 1946: ‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in 1867, shortly before the commencement of modern Jewish resettlement, and described it as “a desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds—a silent, mournful expanse… A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.” According to the careful population figures of the Ottoman Empire, in 1882 (at the very beginning of the modern, organized Jewish immigration back to the ancestral home), the total population of land between the Jordan and the Sea was less than 250,000 – in an area that today supports ten million people, Israelis and Palestinians.

Cont:

The resettlement of the sparsely populated Holy Land by the descendants of its ancient inhabitants, however, did not take place solely in the modern era. Throughout Jewish history, waves of returnees came back to the sacred soil of their ancestors. In the 8th and 9th centuries, A.D., Jewish immigrants re-established major communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias; by the 11th Century, they had built new communities in Jaffa, Ashkelon, Caesarea and Rafah. In the 16th Century, more Jewish immigrants developed the famous center of mysticism in Safed and beginning in the 1700’s religious scholars and pilgrims intensely repopulated Jerusalem.

Moreover, the Jewish title to the land of Israel received long-standing recognition from international organizations that didn’t even exist at the time of American independence. On July 24, 1922, the 52 governments of the League of Nations formally recognized and endorsed the British Balfour Declaration calling for “reconstituting….a national home for the Jewish people” in the land with which that people enjoyed “historical connections.” Twenty-five years later, the United Nations (successor body to the League of Nations) validated this title with the partition plan, dividing the British Mandate in the area into two states—one Jewish, one Arab. The Arab leadership violently rejected that solution, but after Israel’s bloody war for Independence the UN recognized Israel as a full member state in 1949.

Mission statement, continued from below)

There are a variety of organizations and individuals in Israel who are protesting their government’s policies, and who are working strenuously and courageously on behalf of human rights and justice. It is their intent to create a just and fair nation with equal rights for all its citizens. They are refusing to serve in the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and are actively trying to prevent Palestinian homes from being bulldozed. These actions are also not covered in the American media.

American support of the Israeli government is against our national interest on every level: It places us at war with populations whose desperate plight we are helping to create, and who, quite correctly, place the responsibility for their sufferings on us. It makes us an accomplice to war crimes and an accessory to oppression. This also is not reported.

In analyzing the American media, we are increasingly discovering a cover-up of appalling proportions. Israel is being protected, the news about Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general is being distorted, and the American public is being manipulated.

We believe strongly that if Americans knew the truth about Israel and Palestine—about the massive amount of our tax money that is being given away to Israel, and about the human costs of Israel’s American-financed militarism—they would demand an immediate re-thinking of our policies in this region.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to inform the American public accurately about this area. Most of all, it is to inform Americans about our enormous, and too often invisible, personal connection to it.

Americans, through our blank check to Israel, are empowering the worst elements of Israeli society, and undermining those working for a just, peaceful, and nondiscriminatory nation.

We are driving the violence in this region.
We can stop it.

Re #117735 by rowman on 12/03 at 12:56 pm

rowman,

Refuting 1drees is like shooting fish in a barrel. He obviously doesn’t know anything and says any nonsense he has picked up. Robert is different. He has really done his homework. His sources are generally quite solid.

I just took a look at that “ifamericaknew” site and so far I agree with everything I read there and believe the statistics on the front page to be accurate. In fact, I liked it so much I am going to post their mission statement.
              MISSION STATEMENT

In a democracy, the ultimate responsibility for a nation’s actions rests with its citizens. The top rung of government – the entity with the ultimate power of governance – is the asserted will of the people. Therefore, in any democracy, it is essential that its citizens be fully and accurately informed.

In the United States, currently the most powerful nation on earth, it is even more essential that its citizens receive complete and undistorted information on topics of importance, so that they may wield their extraordinary power with wisdom and intelligence.

Unfortunately, such information is not always forthcoming.

The mission of If Americans Knew is to inform and educate the American public on issues of major significance that are unreported, underreported, or misreported in the American media.

It is our belief that when Americans know the facts on a subject, they will, in the final analysis, act in accordance with morality, justice, and the best interests of their nation, and of the world. With insufficient information, or distorted information, they may do the precise opposite.

It is the mission of If Americans Knew to ensure that this does not happen – that the information on which Americans base their actions is complete, accurate, and undistorted by conscious or unconscious bias, by lies of either commission or omission, or by pressures exerted by powerful special interest groups. It is our goal to supply the information essential to those responsible for the actions of the strongest nation on earth – the American people.

Action Focus #1
Israel is the largest recipient of US. aid in the entire world. It receives more aid than that given to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean, put together.

Israel receives over $10 million dollars per day from the United States, and there is evidence that the total figure is closer to $15 million a day. Yet this information is almost never printed in American newspapers. Coverage of the Middle East in general, and of Israel in particular, virtually never reports this enormous American connection with this region.

Empowered by American money, Israel is occupying land that does not belong to it, is breaking numerous international laws and conventions of which it is a signatory, and is promulgating policies of brutality that have been condemned by the United Nations, the European Union, the National Council of Churches, Amnesty International, the International Red Cross, and numerous other international bodies. This truth is also rarely reported.

Through the money and weaponry provided by the United States, Israel is imposing an ethnically discriminatory nation on land that was previously multicultural. There is ethnic and religious discrimination inherent in its national identity, and a doctrine of the supremacy of one group over all others permeates its political, financial, and military policies. This also is virtually never reported. (continued above)

#117735 by rowman

Thanks for the lesson, I found your history info interesting.

#117653 by rowman on 12/03 at 5:31 am
(78 comments total)

RE: #117568 by Robert on 12/02 at 3:20 pm
Hmmm, Alison Weir runs ifanericansknew web site.

“Robert, you quote and source from a leading ANTI SEMITE PROPOGANDIST! Using sources such as this only proves to me your bias and bigotry. Your drunk on the propaganda machine and it has blocked your ability to reason from truth and facts. I hope you do wake up. You’re deep into anti Semitism and I don’t think you realize it.”
====================================

rowman…Well well…nice going there with your zionist garbage and ranting.

Your attacks on Alison Weir and your anti-semetic labels are nothing new on truthdig. Your zionist/ADL tactics to silence anyone who posts the facts/truth about your Israeli IDF “killers” are NOT going to work on me and other Americans who are NOT afraid to tell and post the “TRUTH”!

Instead of trying to smear Alison Weir, one wonders why you did NOT dispute the statistics from http://www.ifamericansknew.com ? Are the numbers lies? Are the deaths NOT real? What is so anti-semetic regarding deaths/killings of Palestinians, Israelis and the rest of numbers?

Just to back-up the statistics from the above website… here is one WEBSITE STATISTICS that is from the “horse’s mouth” so to speak:

B’TSELEM…THE ISRAELI INFORMATION CENTER FOR “HUMAN RIGHTS” IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

Fatalities Statistics:

Click on the numbers for a list of individual names and details about the circumstances of their death.

29.9.2000-30.11.2007 Occupied Territories Israel

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4240 64

Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians 41

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 233 471

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 236 87

Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians 17 36

Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces 10

Additional data (included in previous table)

Occupied Territories Israel

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 860 3

Israeli minors killed by Palestinians 39 80
Palestinians killed during the course of a targeted killing 367

Palestinians who were the object of a targeted killing 218

Palestinians killed by Palestinians for suspected collaboration with Israel 120

Palestinians who took part in the hostilities and were killed by Israeli security forces 1378 55

Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings).  2038 5

Palestinians who were killed by Israeli security forces and it is not known if they were taking part in the hostilities 605 3

Cilck on link/URL for data and statistics/numbers:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp

RE: #117709 by 1drees on 12/03 at 11:03 am

More propagandist lies. Your assessment of the Israel flag is a complete fabrication.

The Blue Stripes:
The blue stripes on the Zionist flag were inspired by the stripes on the tallit (prayer shawl). The tallit has two separate symbolic aspects: the light blue hue and the stripes. Some say that the stripes are meant to recall the one dyed strand of the ritual fringes (tzitzit). This leads to the significance of the hue itself. According to the Torah, one strand in the tzitzit should be light blue. To judge from references in the Talmud, it was a shade between green and blue. Many symbolic meanings were attributed to it. Rabbi Meir said that it recalls the color of the sky; Rabbi Judah ben Illai maintained that the color of Aaron’s staff was light blue, as were the Tablets of the Law, and this is why God commanded the Jews to include it on their prayer shawls: “As long as the people of Israel are looking at this tehelet, they are reminded of {the words} written on the tablets and observe them.” In other words, the sight of the color tehelet leads to observance of the commandments. White and tehelet, along with gold and purple, were the colors of the High Priest’s raiment (Exodus 28: 4,43) and of the curtains of the Tabernacle (Exodus 26). They were considered to be the colors of purity symbolizing the spirituality of the Jewish people.

The Star of David:
Unlike the menora (candelabrum), the Lion of Judah, the shofar (ram’s horn) and the lulav (palm frond), the Star of David was never a uniquely Jewish symbol. The standard name for the geometric shape is a hexagram or six-pointed star, composed of two interlocking equilateral triangles. In a classic article, Gershom Sholem shed light on the history of the “Star of David” and its connection with Judaism and tried to answer the question whether it was appropriate to include it in the national flag or state emblem.*
One of the first Jewish uses of the Star of David was as part of a colophon, the special emblem printed on the title page of a book. Sometimes the printer included his family name in the colophon; or chose an illustration that alluded to his name, ancestry, or the local prince, or a symbol of success and blessing. The idea was to differentiate this printer’s books from those of his competitors and to embellish the title page. Colophons are as old as the printing press itself.
According to Sholem, the motive for the widespread use of the Star of David was a wish to imitate Christianity. During the Emancipation, Jews needed a symbol of Judaism parallel to the cross, the universal symbol of Christianity. In particular, they wanted something to adorn the walls of the modern Jewish house of worship that would be symbolic like the cross. This is why the Star of David became prominent in the nineteenth century and why it was later used on ritual objects and in synagogues and eventually reached Poland and Russia. The pursuit of imitation, in Sholem’s opinion, led to the dissemination of an emblem that was not really Jewish and conveyed no Jewish message. In his opinion, it was also the reason why the Star of David satisfied Zionism: it was a symbol which had already attained wide circulation among the Jewish communities but at the same time evoked no clear-cut religious associations. The Star of David became the emblem of Zionist Jews everywhere. Non-Jews regarded it as representing not only the Zionist current in Judaism, but Jewry as a whole.

Your credibility shot!

RE: #117568 by Robert on 12/02 at 3:20 pm
Hmmm, Alison Weir runs ifanericansknew web site.

Robert, you quote and source from a leading ANTI SEMITE PROPOGANDIST! Using sources such as this only proves to me your bias and bigotry. Your drunk on the propaganda machine and it has blocked your ability to reason from truth and facts. I hope you do wake up. You’re deep into anti Semitism and I don’t think you realize it.

To help, here is a small critique on Ms. Weir from a real journalist:
http://www.chron.org/tools/viewart.php?artid=225

Weir delivers bias, bigotry in anti-Israel talk
Journalist’s biased claims go unchallenged
Posted 11-15-2001, 11:07
by Richard Goldberg
Meet Alison Weir, self-proclaimed journalist, savior of the Palestinian people and anti-Semite extraordinaire…

#117644 by PatrickHenry on 12/03 at 4:20 am

Patrick,

  If there was no instigation by Hamas there would be no response by the Israelis.

Instead after leaving Gaza….look what happens with the rockets being sent into Israel every day.  Why should Israel leave the West Bank if the same thing is certain to happen.

Does Hamas who is in charge start up the beginnings of responsible government? A normal run citizenry? Something of that order. A semblance. So businesses and factory-startups can reopen and develop. Markets regained.  Employment tackled and reduced.  Investments made by other countries who are waiting in the wing. The ball is in their court and its been downhill since they took over.

#117609 by Howard

You post failed to mention the colleral damage the Israeli response usually provides.

If you know anything about this area of the world you know revenge killing is a real problem.  The Israelis moved righteous property owners off their land for many of the kibbutz being built there, mostly by U.S. jews.  Many members in Palistinian families have been killed by Israelis in reprisals, all listed as terrorists.

The Palistinians will keep comming back until they feel they have regained their property or avenged their family, if it takes generations.

#117615 by Tony Wicher

Tony, Thanks so much for this link. It’s helpful. I’m thinking that you may already be aware of the upcoming event in LA, where Barack Obama will speak again. If not, it’s Dec. 10th, at the Gibson Amphitheater. At least I think she said Gibson. It was an older lady that called me, and it was difficult to make out what she was saying. I’ve also been away for so long that I’m unfamiliar with any Amphitheater by that name in LA. Maybe it’s an older place re-named?

Anyway, it may be worth checking out. I’m planning to attend. I’m sure other details are available on his web site or there in the area.

And, I just read the below piece posted in the NY Times today. I thought it was good, but then I always appreciate journalism from Frank Rich.

Who’s Afraid of Barack Obama?
  By Frank Rich
  The New York Times
  Sunday 02 December 2007

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120207D.shtml

Re #117616 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/02 at 9:09 pm

I think Obama is a “work in progress” and I hope his position will evolve. Currently the international consensus, supported by virtually every ountry in the U.N. is for a two-state solution with Israel withdrawing completely from the OPT. So far Obama is staying within those parameters.

Israel was only one issue discussed at the foreign policy forum at the link I gave cyrena. It’s worth watching.

#117314 by Non Credo on 12/01 at 5:53 am
(699 comments total)

“No matter what Howard says, I know I do not hate “the Jews”.”

Rabid Zionists can sure be detestable, but I guess no more so than other kinds of fanatics. I grew up around lots of Jews, most of whom were atheists, socialists and internationalists. The subject of Israel never came between us. These rich Republican Zionists Jews are not my idea of Jews at all.

#117614 by Tony Wicher on 12/02 at 8:43 pm - Re #117472 by cyrena on 12/02 at 12:49 am - “IS this in fact what Obama is suggesting?” - ” Unfortunately, I heard him say just the opposite today…”

“I spoke with Prime Minister Olmert today, and assured him of my strong support for this effort and my unshakeable commitment to Israel’s security as a core principle as negotiations move forward.

“The Administration deserves credit for finally trying to use presidential diplomacy to bring the parties together. It’s a big change from the last six and a half years, when President Bush badly neglected this conflict…..

Recognizing the complexity of the issues under discussion and the importance of the conflict, it is my hope that this conference is just the start of a sustained push by the United States, the Israelis and the Palestinians to achieve the goal of two states living side-by-side in peace and security.” http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/11/27/483508.aspx

Well, “two states living side by side” where there was once ONE state for both is whose fantasy???

I guess that the “complexity of the issues under discussion” relates to shoving the issue of demographics under the rug to please - whoever.

The “importance of the conflict” is an absurdity as there is NO conflict any more than there is a “war” in Eye-Rak. They are both invasions and one-sided military occupations!

“The Administration deserves credit” means that Obama is once agin co-iopertaing with ‘forces in Washington’ (AIPAC and the White House, uhh) as he did with Pakistan and the Taleban/Al Qaeada!

cyrena,

Obama just participated in an important foreign policy forum with Anthony Lake and others which took questions from the audience, including one on Israel. In spite of the fact that I thought he got it wrong on the Israel question, he made a strong impression on me. Here is the link:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/Cx7J

Re #117472 by cyrena on 12/02 at 12:49 am
(1688 comments total)

“Tony, I’m curious, (and maybe catching up as well). IS this in fact what Obama is suggesting? Is he willing to go on the record as suggesting that America, (or at least the Democratic Party) does believe in, and will support a one-state solution? Or, a plan B democracy for Israel/Palestine?”
—————————————————————————
Not so far, cyrena. Unfortunately, I heard him say just the opposite today, which is that the Annapolis conference is about a two-state solution, and those who are against a two-state solution in any way, shape or form, such as Hamas, should not be invited.
He must be aware of the One Democratic State solution that has been proposed by Palestinian negotiators, but so far he has not said anything about it.

#117582 by Patrick Henry on 12/02 at 5:11 pm
(366 comments total)

Re: #117568 by Robert

  “And you wonder why some disgruntled palistinians continue to shoot those oversize pop bottle rockets at Israel. “
=====================================

You must be a little boy of 14 or 13 years of age to make the above statement.  Understandably, too, because otherwise you would understand that random rockets and mortars fired at civilians do kill and maim.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lmOl4alnV0c

Four civilians have died in the Israeli town of Sderot, which sits close to Gaza’s northeast border. But the lack of bloodshed has not been from a lack of trying. Terrorists have launched some 1,500 Qassam rockets into Israel over the last two years. They simply cannot yet aim their rockets with accuracy or consistency.

Sderot has suffered greatly. Qassam rockets fired randomly from behind the Gaza border often strike Sderot’s schools and houses, and constantly threaten the lives of its citizens. Thousands of residents, no longer willing to live under these conditions, have abandoned the town.

With Hamas in control of Gaza, re-occupation may be the only card left for Israel to play. As long as Gaza is under Hamas control, comprehensive peace will never be achieved. In the meantime, Gazans will not stop firing rockets into Israel. Moreover, they are expected to improve the accuracy and lethality of their weapons.

Some rockets have come close to the power plant in the Israeli town of Ashkelon. It is only a matter of time before the Palestinians acquire more advanced rockets that can reach Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.

#117583 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/02 at 5:14 pm

Well,
  Thank goodness those 2 guys did. And for our side. Imagine. Nazis were working on it also.  We did not know how far along they were on finishing it.

And Japan would have gone down tuff if we did not have it. Would have lost my dad and 4 uncles if we had to invade Japan.

I never said anything about “chosen people’; you did and have more than once.  Get hold of yourelf.

You can’t blame Israel for the high cost of oil.  I think the Arabs have all almost all of it.  Ever hear of that? You know, the cartel and all. OPEC. The Arabs don’t export anything else except terrorists hitting everyone.

and what does your comment ” The other thing that both you Zionist apologisers and the rest of the conceited fools in the world like to overlook..”
really say about your rational writing. Didn’t your mother ever teach you if you can’t say anything nice keep quiet?

And if everyone else is a ’ conceited fool ‘, why then…why the that makes you one smart cookie. congratulatons, man.

#117578 by Howard on 12/02 at 4:44 pm: Yes, and here are some more statistics…... Of 100 million refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel…”

Whatever you think about Israel and its garbage about being “chosen by God”, there are two things which came out of the WW2 era which we are all forced to live with, Howard.

One is the ongoing mess in the M.East which is being endlessly manipulated for perceived interests by opposing factions but is causing the price of oil to skyrocket from US$30 per barrel a mere few years ago to US$100 and perhaps even double that before long.

The other thing that both you Zionist apologisers and the rest of the conceited fools in the world like to overlook is that nuclear WMD’s are mankind’s greatesk threat to future survival on this planet. Both the A-bomb and the H-bomb were developed by Jews in the USA.

It was American German-Jew, Robert (I have no regrets) Oppenheimer who developed the A-bomb (1944) and an insane Hungarian migrant Jew, Edward Teller who developed the H-bomb (1950), the world’s first nuclear WMD’s, and the world has never been the same since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

Re: #117568 by Robert

And you wonder why some disgruntled palistinians continue to shoot those oversize pop bottle rockets at Israel.

Yes,  and here are some more statistics

In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence—some 70% of them fled without ever being ordered by Israel to leave, most of those without ever having seen an Israeli soldier.

Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

Some 650,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while about 850,000 Jews were forced to leave Muslim countries.

In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees from Palestine were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of 100 million refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

  There are 22 Arab countries (with 800 times the land mass of Israel), not counting the Palestinian territories. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel has agreed under several proposals to cede most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even supported the arming of its police force after the Oslo Accords in 1993.

During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths and maintained in good order at Israel’s expense.

#117500 by Non Credo

•  ….she discovered that she had been called in for what seemed an unusual assignment: to help test-market language that could be used to sell military action against Iran to the American public. “The whole basis of the whole thing was, ‘we’re going to go into Iran and what do we have to do to get you guys to along with it?” says Sonnenmark, 49…

•  ….Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi, the founder and president of the Israel Project, contacted Mother Jones and said that her group had commissioned the focus group…
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2007/11 /freedoms-watch-iran.html

Non Credo,

Thanks for posting this.

I’m not even surprised. Is there ANY level to which they will not stoop in trickery and deceit?

NO!!

Statistics

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.
Below are charts of nine little-known statistics.
Please click on any statistic for the source and more information.
Statistics Last Updated: November 6, 2007
——————————————

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000

119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 971 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Chart showing that approximately 5 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children

Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000

Chart showing that 3 to 4 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.   

1,027 Israelis and at least 4,345 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Political Prisoners and Detainees

Chart showing that Israel is holding over 8000 Palestinians prisoner.   

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Chart showing that 2202 Palestinian homes have been destroyed, compared to one Israeli home.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

The Israeli-Palestinian situation will not be resolved anytime in the near future because neither side is really hurting and both believe that “time” is their friend.  After the 1948 war the Arabs claimed to have a secret weapon and that weapon was “time.”  Time to recover, time to rearm, and time to let the Palestinian question fester all the while waiting for an American administration to come to power that would be more sympathetic to the Arab point of view as well as world opinion.

The Israelis because of their military advantage didn’t mind the wait and after 1967 there was no rush to resolve the Palestinian problem at all.  Today Israel’s economy is booming thanks to their military and security industries spurred on by a siege mentality——why reach an accord when it will cost much in compromises and the current situation actually helps the economy!

The Palestinians in the West Bank are also doing fairly well economically, though its not publicized very much, and there is no love lost between the West Bank Palestinians and those in Gaza especially with Hamas in charge.  Any accord, at this time, will require an understanding between Fatah and Hamas and is something that will reduce Abbas’s overall authority.

So when you put the present situation in perspective there is little impetus for a peace accord at this time——its a lose-lose situation for both sides. Better to wait for the next big war when one side may actually achieve the ultimate victory!

RE: #117489 by cyrena on 12/02 at 5:23 am
  RE:  #117501 by Non Credo on 12/02 at 7:52 am

http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=37035

During the past week, Palestinians fired over 70 mortar shells and over 25 Kassam rockets at Israeli communities in the western Negev and at IDF forces. Of these, approximately 35 mortar shells and 20 rockets landed in Israel. The terror organizations, in particular Hamas, have made continuous attempts to kill or injure Israeli civilians and IDF forces, especially in the area adjacent to the Gaza security fence. Israeli forces are operating against the terror infrastructure in Gaza in order to distance the terror organizations from the security fence and to prevent rocket and mortar shell fire into Israel.
———————————————————
Palestinians in the Gaza Strip fired 20 mortars at southern Israel on Wednesday, Israel Radio reported.
No wounded or damage were reported as a result of the attacks.

Two Kassam rockets, also fired from Gaza, hit the western Negev on Wednesday. No one was wounded but property was damaged.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1195546753084&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
————————————————

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/930285.html

Also Monday, Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired eight mortar shells at the western Negev. One of the shells struck inside the Nahal Oz Kibbutz, causing no injuries. Another shell hit the security fence between Israel and Gaza, and the others slammed into open fields in the region.

Earlier, militants fired two Qassam rockets from the northern Gaza Strip. The rockets struck open fields, causing no damages.

An armed Palestinian militant opened fire on Israel Defense Forces troops on Monday at the Qalandiyah checkpoint near Jerusalem. The troops seized control of the gunman, who managed to fire two shots before running out of ammunition.

A civilian bystander was lightly wounded by flying shrapnel. None of the soldiers suffered any injuries.

#117485 by Howard

•  #117469 by Tony Wicher on 12/02 at 12:26 am
Now, Tony, some truce !  Hamas still sends rockets into Israel every day.  I know it doesn’t make the front pages, and its below the horizon in thoughts. But when one hits a school, or maims a few people, you can see that the reaction will be front page news as to how cruel the Israelis are.
Howard,
I know you addressed this to Tony, but I’m the one that’s still trying to reconcile YOUR reports of these daily rockets from Palestine into Israel, with…well, REALITY. So, it may not make the front pages, (of course it doesn’t…at least not in the US media, but I can’t find it in any other media either) but what I’m wondering is if ANYBODY actually THERE, (in Israel or anywhere else in the Palestinian territories) actually sees or hears, or otherwise witnesses these daily attacks.

Because you see Howard, so far, NOBODY except you, seem to be aware of these incidents, and well…aren’t YOU here in the US? So, do you have like a baby monitor or something, that allows you to listen in on, (as well as view) the activities of all of this stuff? Why don’t the people who actually LIVE there report these daily things?

Now I’m not suggesting that these things NEVER occur, (rockets and mortars from some place in Gaza to Israel, or the territories that Israel illegally occupies in the West Bank and elsewhere) because of course I know that this has happened. I mean, how long has it been now?

So, I guess it’s just the daily stuff that I’m questioning, that NOBODY else knows about, including the people that live there. And, believe me, if any of these rockets or mortars ever HIT anything in Israel, or anything ‘Israeli’, the whole world would know about it.

So, that’s why I’m still so curious. I guess I’m hoping to have your word corroborated, by somebody other than you.

Seems to me like Hamas should have run out of rockets a long time ago, based on your tales of how frequently they supposedly do this. You talk like they’re pulling them out of their asses or something, but even though these rockets are clearly not known for their ‘efficiency’, they aren’t exactly small, tiny, or easily produced.

#117469 by Tony Wicher on 12/02 at 12:26 am

Now, Tony, some truce !  Hamas still sends rockets into Israel every day.  I know it doesn’t make the front pages, and its below the horizon in thoughts. But when one hits a school, or maims a few people, you can see that the reaction will be front page news as to how cruel the Israelis are.

That is why Hamas who has made their official policy one of eradicating Israel. And now are struggling to provoke a reaction instead of building a country. How do you negotiate with them?

Would we in the U.S. tolerate rockets coming into our country DAILY ??

During the past week, Palestinians fired over 70 mortar shells and over 25 Kassam rockets at Israeli communities in the western Negev and at IDF forces. Of these, approximately 35 mortar shells and 20 rockets landed in Israel.

#117461 by Tony Wicher

•  So why shouldn’t Obama say yes, this is what America believes in, what the Democratic Party believes in?

Tony, I’m curious, (and maybe catching up as well). IS this in fact what Obama is suggesting? Is he willing to go on the record as suggesting that America, (or at least the Democratic Party) does believe in, and will support a one-state solution? Or, a plan B democracy for Israel/Palestine?

I’m just curious, and not because I don’t believe in it myself, nor do I believe that the Palestinians would have any trouble accepting that. (as you’ve said of the Palestinian negotiators that you’ve heard from).

I even suspect that the majority of Israelis would go along with this. But, the MAJORITY of ANYBODY hasn’t been heard from in years. Not here, and not in the Middle East, but most specifically not in Israel/Palestine.

Surely that doesn’t make things hopeless, (because the MAJORITY is civilized and mostly reasoned). Still, this would make me fear for him even more. The crazies are simply not going away, and they’ve been able to get away with a whole lot of bad stuff, for a really long time, despite the fact that they are technically in the minority.

So, I guess I’m just wondering if in fact Obama has plans to speak on this option, on behalf of the American public.

As for the firing of the rockets, yes…I suppose that Palestinian leaders could and should tell them to knock it off. I can only suggest that they probably have, and that I really don’t believe this ‘practice’ is as widespread as the Zionists would have us believe.

They complain about kids throwing rocks at those IDF tanks as well. Come on.

#117467 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/02 at 12:07 am

The Palestinians had a democratic election and elected Hamas. A senior aide to Ismael Haniya proposed a 10-year hudna or truce in an op-ed piece in the New York Times. He offered as a Muslim to swear by God that there would be no violence during this time. Israel totally ignored this and never evinced the slightest interest in negotiations.

#117461 by Tony Wicher on 12/01 at 11:41 pm: “...have read statements by other Palestinian negotiators proposing a one democratic state solution that sounded so eminently reasonable…. it means giving up their fundamental demographic objective. This objective is not realizable….”

Agreed, TW, it IS time to go to “plan B - democracy”. Expansionism is no longer an option unless the Israelis are completely insane. I hope their government doesn’t try…....

The journalist Rober Fisk might have whined about Saeb Erekat in the past but he is not the one under the Israeli occupation. Hearing Erekat speak, he is knowledgable and intelligent and, more importantly, honest and brave.

Don’t forget, though, that the remaining “islands” of Palestine are places where people live in desperation under varying levels of fear and duress. The European Jewish holocaust only lasted a few years (1938-44, from Krystallnacht) but the Palestinian oppression has been over 60 years!

Not only has “democracy” proved to be impossible under those conditions but Hezbollah could be considered a third force apart from the PLO and Hamas. Palestine/Israel is an area where many agendas are simultaneuosly being played out and represents all of the frustrations of the Arab peoples in the M.East to some degree.

The elections which were held made Hamas the legitimate authority. The USA and Israel didn’t like that and have done everything in their power to derail Hamas and any peace that did exist since. When will there be a single election which includes all of the Israelis as well as all of the Arab Palestinians???

Re #117457 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/01 at 11:16 pm

I think the problem is, why can’t these Palestinian democrats who are negotiating tell the idiots firing the rockets to knock it off? They must clearly and credibly be seen as leaders of the Palestinians. Have they run for election on a peace and civil rights platoform and won? Not so far.

Re #117457 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/01 at 11:16 pm

“That person is most probably Saeb Erekat, TW. But he is/was the long-time leader of the Palestinian Authority negotiating team, not in jail.”

I will check him out. I have read statements by other Palestinian negotiators proposing a one democratic state solution that sounded so eminently reasonable to an American democrat like me. So why shouldn’t Obama say yes, this is what America believes in, what the Democratic Party believes in? “Demographics” is what makes this unthinkable to Zionists, because it means giving up their fundamental demographic objective. This objective is not realizable. Time to go to plan B - democracy.

#117430 by Robert

•  What was Said and Not Said in Annapolis
The “Never-Never” Peace Talks

By SONJA KARKAR

Robert, thanks for posting this. It’s actually all I needed to read about this, knowing the ‘never-never’ properties to the stage production were a given, just like always. Buys time for Israel to continue the robbery, and well, how much money was spent on that little venture?

#117441 by Howard

•  During the past week, Palestinians fired over 70 mortar shells and over 25 Kassam rockets at Israeli communities in the western Negev and at IDF forces. Of these, approximately 35 mortar shells and 20 rockets landed in Israel.

Howard, who makes up these numbers? It’s SUCH a broken record. Seriously. 70, mortar shells, over 25 rockets, 35 mortal shells, and 20 rockets. Can’t somebody at least use a little imagination and change up from time to time?

How about 73 motar shells, (39 landing in Israel, and maybe you could tell us exactly which spots they landed, like on CSI) And could we switch the rockets to say, maybe 17, with 13 landing in Israel? I mean really, after a while, it just all gets to be really BORING. It’s like watching clowns climbing out of a Volkswagen. (the little Bugs) remember those? They could make like 12 or so Clowns appear from out of these little tiny cars. At some point, even a kid starts to wonder.

Such as, where is the never-ending supply COMING from? Why don’t any of the IDF or any other people actually get hit by any of these alleged attacks? And, how come none of this stuff ever jives with REALITY on the ground? I mean, we only get to read about it here, but NOBODY over there, has seen any of it? What’s up with that.

I mean seriously, if ‘just last week” all of this stuff happened, WHY doesn’t anybody OVER THERE actually KNOW about it? Can we do a little ‘eye witness’ stuff here for a change? Maybe actually SEE one of these mortar shells or rockets? All we ever get to do is read about them, like our favorite fairy tales, and even the numbers don’t even change. (at least not to anything believable). These are some really well worn pages by now.

Kind of makes a rational person wonder how any of it could be true…ESPECIALLY if they actually happen to be there, and never see or hear any of it.

#117445 by Howard on 12/0: “...if we don’t get a handle on our borders it will change our country to ‘sumpin else, too. Like Ca. is now almost Mexifornia….”

You must be almost brain dead, Howard. Giving up on continuously and compulsively ranting about how wonderful Israel is and how much it has done for the world has affected you, eh?

California (and Texas) was once “Mexican”. It will go back to that once the WASP’s fail in their climate-change denial lifestlyle, uhh.

#117455 by Tony Wicher on 12/01: “... What the Palestinians need is a Nelson Mandela, a leader committed to non-violent struggle and democracy. Then they will clearly have the moral high ground…”

That person is most probably Saeb Erekat, TW. But he is/was the long-time leader of the Palestinian Authority negotiating team, not in jail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeb_Erekat

Re #117442 by Non Credo on 12/01 at 8:34 pm

NC,

I also thought it was amazing that Olmert would say this. That is exactly what is needed: a South African-style struggle for Palestinian civil rights. Under an Obama administration, the United States should announce support for such a struggle as part of a serious human rights policy. Israel is trying to impose a “two-state solution” consisting of one state, Israel, and some Indian reservations collectively termed “Palestine”. The same thing was tried in South Africa. What the Palestinians need is a Nelson Mandela, a leader committed to non-violent struggle and democracy. Then they will clearly have the moral high ground in the eyes of America and the world. The Palestinians are only shooting themselves in the foot with those stupid rockets. Their only real weapon is U.S. and world opinion.

Re #117445 by Howard on 12/01 at 9:10 pm
(257 comments total)

“He was talking demographics. Nothing more.”

Demographics is everything, Howard. The whole idea of Israel, the whole Zionist project is to have a country with a supermajority of Jews. This project is as racist as it can possibly be.

He was talking demographics. Nothing more.
His way of dismissing the inane talk of a one-state solution being aired by naive well-wishers in academia.

Just like if we don’t get a handle on our borders it will change our country to ‘sumpin else, too.
  Like Ca. is now almost Mexifornia.  So duck.

Pretty tough to have peace with the leaders of Gaza are sending rockets into Israel. How much more land can Israel give up in the West bank and then have the same scenario happen ?

During the past week, Palestinians fired over 70 mortar shells and over 25 Kassam rockets at Israeli communities in the western Negev and at IDF forces. Of these, approximately 35 mortar shells and 20 rockets landed in Israel. The terror organizations, in particular Hamas, have made continuous attempts to kill or injure Israeli civilians and IDF forces, especially in the area adjacent to the Gaza security fence. Israeli forces are operating against the terror infrastructure in Gaza in order to distance the terror organizations from the security fence and to prevent rocket and mortar shell fire into Israel

Re #117427 by Howard on 12/01 at 5:45 pm

This is a good post, Howard. Indeed, what have Egypt or Jordan or Saudi Arabia or the oil emirates done to help their so-called brother Arabs in Palestine? Not much, as far as I know. It might seem that with but a fraction of what these people spend on booze, whores and gambling, they could easily supply every Palestinian with everthing needed for a decent life. If this is a misconception, perhaps someone out there will correct me.

December 1, 2007

What was Said and Not Said in Annapolis
The “Never-Never” Peace Talks

By SONJA KARKAR

“Although “never-never” has long been used to describe the remote outback of Australia, the term is also known as fantasyland, especially when someone dreams about a utopian future - an apt description of what has been going on in Annapolis. The staged seriousness of the moment was well illustrated when an unusually be-spectacled US President George Bush read the joint understanding that said nothing more than what has been said so many times before. Yet, Israel’s Prime Minister Olmert was determined not to lose the photo opportunity and insisted that it capture the President shaking hands with him and Palestinian President Abbas. For Israel, nothing was lost and time gained. For the Palestinians, peace was left hanging in the “never-never”.

The essence of that joint understanding requires Israel and the Palestinians to commit to ongoing talks and to implement immediately their obligations under the more than 5-year-old performance-based Road Map, until a peace treaty is reached, as judged by the US. This Road Map to a permanent two-state solution was supposed to reach “a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005.” It did not, and two years later, the parties are still only committing to a process that the US hopes will see a permanent status agreement by the end of 2008.

For the Palestinians, this is just more of the same, but with evermore dire consequences. They have already met their obligations: Israel has not. The Roadmap explicitly states that “the parties are expected to perform their obligations in parallel”. But, while the Palestinians reiterated Israel’s right to exist in peace and security, called for a ceasefire, called for the ending of armed activities against Israelis, and conducted institutional and economic reforms, Israel continued its military assaults on the occupied territories, continued to build illegal settlements and expropriate Palestinian land, and did nothing but pay lip service to removing the draconian grid of checkpoints that suffocate the Palestinian population.

As recently as 19 November, Olmert said that Israel would not “build new settlements” or “expropriate lands” and that it was committed to “dismantling the illegal outposts.” [1] Yet, Israel has already expropriated more than 40 per cent of West Bank land and has reserved it for settlements and their expansion: it is on that very land that Olmert will allow the building of settlement “neighbourhoods” to continue. According to the Road Map, there is no distinction between legal or illegal outposts because all Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and so the freeze on building applies to all Palestinian territory occupied by Israel in 1967, including East Jerusalem. However, there is no freeze and never has been.

There is nothing the Palestinians can do to stop Israel going full steam ahead with the whole settlement enterprise and there is no international body prepared or game enough to stop Israel as long as the US gives it the green light. For all the talk of peace and expectations that the Palestinians must comply with their obligations, Israel continues to give subsidies and economic incentives for settlers and authorises the urban planning of settlements. If Palestinian homes or agricultural land are in the way, they are demolished, destroyed and confiscated. Israel has the military might to enforce whatever it wants without fear of any damaging retribution or being reined in. There is absolutely no bona fide intention on Israel’s part to adhere to any of its obligations which makes the whole Annapolis charade and its timetable of negotiations, an exercise in futility.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/karkar12012007.html

RE:#117350 by Tony Wicher on 12/01 at 8:42 am

During the fighting in 1947-1948, about
three-fourths of a million Arabs fled or were driven (both are true in
different places) from Israel and found refuge in the neighboring Arab
countries. In the same period and after, a slightly greater number of Jews
fled or were driven from Arab countries, first from the Arab-controlled
part of mandatory Palestine (where not a single Jew was permitted to
remain), then from the Arab countries where they and their ancestors had
lived for centuries, or in some places for millennia. Most Jewish refugees
found their way to Israel.

What happened was thus, in effect, an exchange of populations not unlike
that which took place in the Indian subcontinent in the previous year,
when British India was split into India and Pakistan. Millions of refugees
fled or were driven both ways—Hindus and others from Pakistan to India,
Muslims from India to Pakistan. Another example was Eastern Europe at the
end of World War II, when the Soviets annexed a large piece of eastern
Poland and compensated the Poles with a slice of eastern Germany. This too
led to a massive refugee movement—Poles fled or were driven from the
Soviet Union into Poland, Germans fled or were driven from Poland into
Germany.

The Poles and the Germans, the Hindus and the Muslims, the Jewish refugees
from Arab lands, all were resettled in their new homes and accorded the
normal rights of citizenship. More remarkably, this was done without
international aid. The one exception was the Palestinian Arabs in
neighboring Arab countries.
—————————-

Bernard Lewis   Wall st Journal 11.27 2007

#117365 by rowman

So rowman, it would appear that we’re back to the real live issue that the conflict is about, and has always been about…the taking of land. And surely, oh surely, if we do a ‘title’ search on the property, we can of course come up with something, oh yes, yes, there must be SOMETHING, somewhere, (even if we have to go back 10,000 years or so) that will allows us to claim it. (so say the Jews).

So, what does that say for the Indigenous Peoples of other lands, who have had far, far, far, far, more of THEIR land stolen, than what Israel is claiming to have belonged to the Jews 10,000 plus years ago? Does this mean that the Native Americans can finally have their land back? Oopps. I think if you live anywhere in the US, you might just have to sign over those deeds now. And, the claims of the Native Americans only have to go back 300 years, not 10,000.

Actually, though it’s been 25 years in the making, there is finally a piece of Universal Legislation that would do exactly that…The United Nations Declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples. It was signed and adapted into International Law on September 13, 2007.

Here’s a piece from the great moment,

“Today, by adopting the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples we are making further progress to improve the situation of indigenous peoples around the world,” stated General Assembly President Haya Al Khalifa. “We are also taking another major step forward towards the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all.”

Here’s more:

“Today’s happy moment did not come easily. The declaration underwent a longer period of debate and negotiation – 25 years all told – than any other international agreement in United Nations history. During those years, hundreds of thousands of indigenous peoples were ROUTED FROM THE HOMES, MASSACRED IN THEIR VILLAGES, AND HAD THEIR SACRED SITES DEFILED, AND THE LANDS AND RESOURCES APPROPRIATED. (the caps are mine). Even with the declaration now adopted, many of these problems will continue, UNLESS NATIONS LIVE UP TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCUMENT.”

Then there’s THIS, (which of course we expected),

“Unfortunately, the US, stands to be one of these problem states. It was one of the four countries (along with Canada, New Zealand and Australia) that voted AGAINST the declaration.” (Here again, no surprises to us). “It’s vote sends a message to Native Americans and to the world that once again the United States is not prepared to take action to support human rights, even when those rights benefit American citizens.”

Needless to say, Israel doesn’t even come up, since they’ve yet to recognize the humanity of the peoples who occupied that land, for 10,000 years before the Jews returned to claim it as theirs, and theirs alone.

And so it is. It’s all about a land grab, and the hell with anybody that gets in the way.

#117387 by Blackspeare on 12/01 at 2:00 pm: “Christians are waiting for the second coming the Christ; the Jews are waiting for the first coming of the Messiah; and the Muslims are waiting for the return of the Mahdi or the 12th Imam….”

What annoys me is this precious idea that they all can afford to wait, uhh. The time for doing is NOW - the time for getting it right is NOW!

The Budhists also have a second coming they are foolishly waiting for - the Maitreya. What they all don’t understand is that, by then, it will be TOO LATE!!!

Blackspeare said

“Wait a minute——Christians are waiting for the second coming the Christ; the Jews are waiting for the first coming of the Messiah; and the Muslims are waiting for the return of the Mahdi or the 12th Imam.  What bothers me is what happens if all three arrive at the same time??!!

To which I say instead of playing fun and games with confusion you had better come to know the truth

Because God will demand knowledge in these last day,s and the time is at hand

Do a Google search of the May 15th Prophecy to help you understand what really going on in the Middle East

Wait a minute——Christians are waiting for the second coming the Christ; the Jews are waiting for the first coming of the Messiah; and the Muslims are waiting for the return of the Mahdi or the 12th Imam.  What bothers me is what happens if all three arrive at the same time??!!

“The change is simply to relinquish the idea of a Jewish state for the universal human idea of democracy” by Tony Wicher on 12/01 at 8:42 am

That is just so absurd.

Why should they relinquish it? How about you relinquish your right to own property to your neighbors. Go now and sign your deed over to the neighbor next door to you for democracy sake. Once you have done this, then come back and let’s talk.

Israel does belong to the Jews. They have a right to far more land currently in their possession. If you disagree you are ignoring facts in favor of propaganda.

The earliest writings on Israel, three Egyptian archeological findings confirm this. The first is from Pharaoh Merneptah (1234 B.C.). Second, Papyrus Anastasia I and the third is from the Journey of Wen Amon. All non Jews and all confirm their possession of the land many, many moons before the first muslim set foot on it. The book of Judges clearly outlines the land boundaries in their possession. Again, many moons before the first muslim was on the scene. They have no right to demand ownership. None whatsoever. They have tried to rewrite history to justify their position!

Israel has conceded far more land possession that any of her neighbors in the name of peace. What have the muslims done? Attack, kill, send homicide bombers…

Face it, folks—the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not solvable. The best course of action for the USA is Ron Paul’s policy of non-interventionism. We have nothing to gain by taking sides in a conflict in which both sides are culpable and irrational. Our trying to referee this grudge match makes matters worse.

We should withdraw all our troops from the Middle East (as well as the rest of the world), end all foreign aid, and let the Israelis and Palestinians figure things out for themselves. We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by continuing our meddling in things that don’t concern us.

#117350 by Tony Wicher on 12/01 at 8:42 am

Lewis is one of the best writers and historians.  Revered by both sides. Like it that you put his thoughts up here. Nice going.

Israel is not going to commit suicide going the route you suggest.  Israel is not South Africa.  Horrible analagy. I don’t know any country that has to debate its existence.

Start that nonsense and we can debate, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq concerning their existence.
Pal’s are Syrians descent (and they considered themselves that) and until 1967 there was never a word describing them as otherwise or as a people with nationalistic feelins or hisory. Else while Jordan had the West Bank for 19 years it could have been given a state easily.  There never was a Palestinian state. 

But, ok,  they can have one now. Let them and Israel negotiate it happening. They had it in hand in 1948. That’s whey the Partition at that time was adopted that way. Hope they get one started. Don’t know, myself, if we need a 23rd Arab state. And its lip service that the other 22 want them to have it. How else could they divert attention from their populace from themselves.

Re #117298 by Howard on 12/01 at 4:00 am
The problem is evident for the seeable future. If “Israel were to be accepted into the region as a normal and legitimate neighbour, then the discussion would only be about where to draw the borders, and a happy conclusion would be reached soon enough. But so long as the propaganda of the entire Arab and Muslim world is turned to demonizing “Zionism” (Jews and Israel), and the public fantasy continues of driving Israel into the sea, what is the point of discussing borders?”
—————————————————————————
Howard,

I recently received an article from one of your Zionist brethren in the “Israel Matters” group inside the Obama campaign. I will quote the beginning of the article (which it sounds like you have read) along with my response.
—————————————————————————
On the Jewish Question
By BERNARD LEWIS
November 26, 2007; Page A21

Herewith some thoughts about tomorrow’s Annapolis peace conference, and the larger problem of how to approach the Israel-Palestine conflict. The first question (one might think it is obvious but apparently not) is, “What is the conflict about?” There are basically two possibilities: that it is about the size of Israel, or about its existence.

If the issue is about the size of Israel, then we have a straightforward border problem, like Alsace-Lorraine or Texas. That is to say, not easy, but possible to solve in the long run, and to live with in the meantime.

If, on the other hand, the issue is the existence of Israel, then clearly it is insoluble by negotiation. There is no compromise position between existing and not existing, and no conceivable government of Israel is going to negotiate on whether that country should or should not exist.”
——————————————————————————

My reply:
Here’s my view: the issue is indeed the existence of Israel, not its size, and that is why every peace confidence since the state of Israel was declared failed, and why this one will also fail. The huge, gigantic, monumental error of this article is contained in the third paragraph:  “If, on the other hand, the issue is the existence of Israel, then clearly it is insoluble by negotiation. There is no compromise position between existing and not existing, and no conceivable government of Israel is going to negotiate on whether that country should or should not exist.” This is such a monumental fallacy! There is most assuredly a compromise between existing and not existing. It is called transformation. It is called becoming. It is called change. Change can happen immediately, because the change required is only a change of mind. The rest is a matter of negotiation. The change is simply to relinquish the idea of a Jewish state for the universal human idea of democracy. If South Africa could do it, so can Israel. Long live Archbishop Desmond Tutu! As the Afrikaners and the Blacks negotiated their way from a white supremacy state to a democracy, so can Israel. For me this is mathematics. I see no other road to peace.

The Saudi plan is not something signed by anyone yet.
its been floated by the Saudis who are not even neighbors, and who would not shake hands with the Olmert last week; let alone recognize Israel. Maybe some parts of it will be something to negotiated with Israel. Let them decide.

  As per Saudi Arabia…with all their mountains of monies, they have yet to help the Pal’s instead of helping them remain in dismal camps.  Have they absorbed any of them? None.

  Let alone put a lid on the inflammatory hateful sermons that are preached steadily in their kingdom.

The problem is evident for the seeable future. If Israel were to be accepted into the region as a normal and legitimate neighbour, then the discussion would only be about where to draw the borders, and a happy conclusion would be reached soon enough. But so long as the propaganda of the entire Arab and Muslim world is turned to demonizing “Zionism” (Jews and Israel), and the public fantasy continues of driving Israel into the sea, what is the point of discussing borders?

As long as the conditions for even a temporary peace agreement—a “hudna” in the Arabic lexicon, or cessation of open hostilities until the Arab side has had a chance to regroup—must include Israel’s recognition of the “right of return” for some millions of the descendants of Palestinians who were displaced in the late 1940s (and no reciprocal recognition of the Jews who were displaced across the Arab world at the same time)—where can we get? The demand that a nation commit suicide can be no legitimate part of a peace conference.

#117137 by G on 11/30 at 1:03 pm
(3 comments total)

Wow!  Well said, because in the end, Gia will have her due!

117266 Tony Wicher
•  Children were told this by their parents and grew up believing it. But the whole thing is collapsing now. More and more Jews, especially young ones, do not identify with Israel. Traditionally progressive Jews are speaking up ever louder against reactionary Israeli militarism and violations human rights and international law.
 
#117270 Douglas Chalmers
•  “yes, life does go on and it will bypass both Judaism and Christianity as they are now known. Islam too will change once it is no longer a weapon of obstinacy against repression and exploitation from the West. Then, if any have survived, there will indeed be progress at last. As we know, Israel will be wiped off the map even if in name alone”

Can I say how privileged I feel to be able to read the comments of such gifted individuals, who know how to connect the dots of history and humanity? I do. These are such excellent comments, that I can’t reproduce them all, nor is there a need.

Still, I think there’s some importance to considering this whole issue of what is ‘passed down’ in reference to what the children have been told, (in this case both Jewish and Arab children of the region in conflict) because it’s important to consider those things, in understanding the nature of the conflict that has continued longer than any other in recent decades.

AND, it’s also important to understand that what is passed down, and what creates our own concepts/existence, isn’t just an Israeli, or Palestinian, or Arab, or Middle Eastern, or any other specific category of ‘thing’. It happens everywhere, and throughout our human history.

Why do people here in the US consistently claim that the Indians or the Hispanics don’t pay taxes? Because, they’re ignorant, and somebody else said it, and so they believe it, even though it’s not true. Why did an entire family of ‘regular’ folks, (in this case women) believe that it was necessary to ALWAYS cut off both ends of a rump roast before cooking it? Well, because that’s what their mothers told them, and their sisters did it, and their aunts did it, and nobody ever bothered to question WHY the practice came about. Once they finally managed to track it down, (to a remaining elder) it was discovered that they had originally done this so that the thing would fit into the pan/pot that it was to be prepared in, and NOT because there was anything ‘wrong’ with the ends of the roast, or because there was some ‘enhancement’ to the cooking process, to cut off both ends of it.

How different is this, from what the immigrating Israeli children were told by their elders back in the 50’s or 60’s that their new homes (in Israel) had been ‘abandoned’ by the people that had previously lived in them? How different is this from the Texas college student today, who corrects the professor by saying that the U.S Civil War was a “NORTHERN War of Aggression” perpetrated against the South?

And, Douglas is correct in saying that so much of what is considered to be traditional Islam, has grown from an obstinacy to reject repression and exploitation from the West. How different is that from the Israeli obsession with ‘safety’ that Non Credo mentioned? Could it be that Israel feels threatened because they intuitively KNOW that they’ve literally stolen the land and space of others, and that the human reaction, would be to want to get it back? Might they be aware, (if only subconsciously) that when people are repressed and caged up, and denied the basics of survival, that they are likely to resist and reject that?

Some will suggest that I’m posing an overly simplistic ideology to complex issues. I would say that these are fundamentally human processes, and that we’ve only MADE them complicated, and that we need to at least consider the origins of these things, if any solutions are to come about. And, I say it in the same breath as my own agreement that we CANNOT GO BACK. We only need to consider these basics so that we can move forward.

#117261 by Tony Wicher: “...each one of these people, as individuals, had their roots in the land and in the culture, and the crime of Zionism in uprooting them and destroying their way of life is not a whit less for that. ......life goes on. We cannot go back, either 2000 years as the Zionists wish to do, or a hundred years as Palestinian nationalists wish to do. We can only go forward, to democracy, to something that has never existed before….”

We in the West only really know the Western side of history, TW. Whatever happened that involved the flow of trade and people and culture (including religious and philosophical concepts) from the East is hardly understood - I mean India and China as well as Iran (Persia) - because we didn’t really want to know.

The entire history of the Eastern end of the Mediterranean region (Lebanon, Palestine) has been subsumed by the plethora of garbage written compulsively about the Jews and the illusory ancient state of Israel. History has been colored to suit them - or the believers of the biblical/Torah old testament.

As the entire coast there was a trading region, what was so special about so-called Israel? It was a Roman puppet state and that is all. Just as with the destruction of Palestinian civic records in Israeli bombing in the past several years, the non-Jewish inhabitants of the region have historically had their past trashed for the benefit of an illusion to suit both Israel and the Catholic church!

But, yes, life does go on and it will bypass both Judaism and Christianity as they are now known. Islam too will change once it is no longer a weapon of obstinacy against repression and exploitation from the West. Then, if any have survived, there will indeed be progress at last. As we know, Israel will be wiped off the map even if in name alone….....

Perhaps most of the Zionist Jews/Israelis will migrate to San Antonio, Texas. Who cares, uhh?!?!

Re #117142 by NC

I would say there is a strong identification on the part of many American Jews, such as our Howard,  with the state of Israel. The Israel party line is that Israel represents the national will of the Jewish people, not the national will of persons residing in Israel. That is what makes it unique. This party line has been enforced on Jews more than any one else by the Zionist commissars, just as the party line that all was wonderful in the Soviet Union was once enforced by Communist commisars. 
Children were told this by their parents and grew up believing it. But the whole thing is collapsing now. More and more Jews, especially young ones, do not identify with Israel. Traditionally progressive Jews are speaking up ever louder against reactionary Israeli militarism and violations human rights and international law.

Re #117161 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/30 at 2:45 pm

“There is no “holy land” and there never was. Just a confluence of archaic religions and cultural mores - and opposing political imperatives. It was the “Christains” from outside who bought into it and it was the Jews from outside who perpetrated it. It is still a pan-Arab region and always will be.”
—————————————————————————
I don’t know, DC. Nothing is forever. Israel has only been there since 1948, and before that it was “pan-Arab” only since somewhere around the 8th century. The Romans who were the previous conquerors named it Palestine. Then after Constantine was converted it became Christian for a few centuries. Actually, I think the Zionists are right about one thing: in a way there is no such thing as Palestine or a Palestinian. “Palestine” was a province of the Ottoman Empire. What was there before the Zionist immigration was a motley of Arabs tribes, with quite a few Christians and some Jews. There was never a nation-state of Palestine. People identified with their religion or their tribe, but not with a Palestinian nation. Identification with a Palestinian nation, a flag, etc. came only as a reaction to the Zionist immigration. But each one of these people, as individuals, had their roots in the land and in the culture, and the crime of Zionism in uprooting them and destroying their way of life is not a whit less for that.

What I am suggesting is that life goes on. We cannot go back, either 2000 years as the Zionists wish to do, or a hundred years as Palestinian nationalists wish to do. We can only go forward, to democracy, to something that has never existed before. That is what must be negotiated between all the residents of the area.

“#117184 by lastdaywatchers on 11/30 at 3:46 pm
(8 comments total)

What do you mean “You take Jesus, I’ll take God”

Jesus is God”
—————————————————————————-

Wow, Jesus v. God in a steel cage match! Can we sell tickets?

What do you mean “You take Jesus, I’ll take God”

Jesus is God

#117161 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/30 at 2:45 pm
  says:

Such are the insane delusions of the Christian Zionists and the fundamentalist Judeo-Christians that they can not only NOT understand the mission of JESUS but that they think that they have the right to support murderers and landgrabbers with guns and missiles and political manipulation at home and abroad.

============================================

You take Jesus, I’ll take God.

#117042 by Non Credo on 11/30: “Maybe the Israelis plan to do this only after the US has already bankrupted and exhausted itself in destroying the rest of the Arab and Muslim Middle East for Israel…?”

So ironic that it will soon all be for naught. As with countries like China which have virtually repopulated themselves after famines and wars of attrition, it is the Arab WOMEN who will at last be victorious.

That is ‘pussy power’ at its most basically significant and that will finally put the Jews where they belong - back in a state called PALESTINE, uhh!!! Islam should remember their women and be grateful…....

Such are the insane delusions of the Christian Zionists and the fundamentalist Judeo-Christians that they can not only NOT understand the mission of JESUS but that they think that they have the right to support murderers and landgrabbers with guns and missiles and political manipulation at home and abroad.

There is no “holy land” and there never was. Just a confluence of archaic religions and cultural mores - and opposing political imperatives. It was the “Christains” from outside who bought into it and it was the Jews from outside who perpetrated it. It is still a pan-Arab region and always will be.

#117142 by Non Credo on 11/30 at 1:32 pm

Non C.  says:

“Well, because of Zionism, we now have not just an abstract, spiritual “Jewish nation”, but an actual, physical country that styles itself not only “a Jewish state”, but “the state of all the Jewish people”. And the leaders of US Jewish organizations are passionately devoted to that foreign state as being supposedly central to Jewish identity. It has a lobby that’s perhaps the most powerful in Washington, foreign or domestic. Many American Jewish families send their kids to summer camps where they dress up like soldiers of this foreign country’s army, salute its flag, and sing its national anthem. Mammoth financial gifts to Israel, pushed by the mercilessly persistent and disproportionately wealthy pro-Israel community, pass in Congress by Stalinist majorities with little or no debate, even though Israel is wealthy “.
Does having this state make Jewish Americans more or less safe from hostility and suspicion as citizens of supposedly questionable loyalty? “
==================================================

Yeah, right on baby,;  let us also check the Catholics and their obedience to the Pope.  Some of their priests wear what the Pope wears.  And I know you will check out the Irish Americans for their utter devotion to Ireland.  Let’s not forget the Mexicans who are flooding in, either.

man, you so intelligent.  Especially about the kiddy camps. Imagine.  So how did you find out all this material?  man , you is so brilliant. 

But you’re a little too fixated. And paranoid.  On Zionism is one thing no matter how wacky your thoughts. But to cast aspersions and doubts about Jewish Americans is a new Low for you. I mean L -O -W.

No one would think of calling you disloyal now, would they?

Nah,  why would they.

I don’t even think you’re an American.  None of them would ever say what you have.

So leave the Americans alone, man.  All of them.

#116986 by Jaded Prole on 11/30: “...by “Israel” Olmert means an ethnically pure Jewish state. It seems his plan would be to assign an area that can be called Palestine in which all Palestinians ...will have to live…. A one state solution is far better that apartheid and a bantustan….”

So, what would that “area in which all Palestinians will have to live” be called? Soweto??? (the name means South-West Township, uhh).

#116983 by 13 Martyrs on 11/30: “...it looks like Israel and Syria are finally going to sit down and talk about the Golan Heights next year…”

Its hardly relevant, regardless of how many “martyrs” you think you are after a few drinks, ha ha. The Golan Heights was only significant in the days of artillery. Now, with mach3 stealth fighter aircraft and WMD missiles, it no longer matters.

#116995 by Non Credo on 11/30: “The real problem is the Israeli people themselves. It’s their ideology that make peace impossible. Israelis who want real change are hopelessly outnumbered. That’s Israel’s real “demographic problem.”...”

Oh, yes, Non Credo, they are on record as having said it clearly themselves many times. As a typical colonialist-invader settler society (just like the American wild west), their attitude towards their Palestinian brothers and sisters is “Its either them or us!”  They never did have any intention of mutual existence........

Re #117120 by dick on 11/30 at 12:19 pm

“All posturing and hypocrisy. Israel will tell Bush what to do, which will result in no progress. The fact is: some Jews want to kill all Muslims, and some Muslims want to kill all Jews, and they are neighbors. More killing, no peace.”
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Dick, you’re a dick. I’m really getting tired of “Israel will tell Bush what to do”. That’s anti-Semitic bullshit. Israel does not tell the U.S. what to do. Israel is a client of the United States, not the other way around. Israel cannot exist without the U.S. Israel will end Zionism and become a democracy when the United States tells it to do so, which will be when the United States gives up imperialism for a peaceful and democratic foreign policy. The U.S. empire is crumbling, and I expect this to happen under the next president of the United States, Barack Hussein Obama.

You know, Palestinians don’t “deserve” a land, nor do Israeli’s, Americans, Chinese, Jews, Catholics, Sunnis, Buddhists, or whatever vain category of separation we can conjure up in our silly, generationally immature, collectively fearful mindsets. Not even the so-called indigenous of any lands (who are basically just longer-term residents) “deserve” anything.  The Earth is as it is…The world is a human concept and to speak metaphorically,  Earth has been recording a devastatingly large bill towards the human race that is about to be served up to us alll….and the funny thing is, we’ll still be thinking in terms of separate identities up until the very last bottle of water is drank by George W’s grand kid who now owns half of antartica, and hunts polar animals alongside his socio-economically inclined friends…most likely a saudi prince, and a bunch of Oil staffers. The day we mature to this fact, is the day that the historical cycle of violence over land and borders, and Judeo-christian-islamic propaganda will become obsolete.

Annapolis, Camp David, blah blah, what a joke all this is! Trying to resolve a problem by building on the false assumption of separation! The funny thing is, Israel and the US are probably well aware of this folly, and so repeat for reasons of personal, political benefit.

I’d say the only thing that “deserves” something is the Earth, and by something I don’t mean the poison we’ve be stuffing it with in this industrial era…Perhaps just some recognition that it is a more important factor to the survival of man than any holy man or holy text, or name we’ve applied to a geographic space. Aint that a B.

RE: #117121 by P. T. on 11/30 at 12:25 pm

  Apartheid? 
In Israel itself, while Jews are a majority, the Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights and are represented in ALL the branches of government. Under apartheid, black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in whch they formed the overwhelming majority of the population.  Laws dictated where they could live, work and travel. And, in South Africa,, the government killed blacks who protested it policies.  By contrast, Israel allows freedom of movement, assembly and speech..  Some of the governments harshest critics are Israeli Arabs who are members of the Knesset. I repeat, members of the Knesset !
The situation of the Palestinians in the territories is different.  But that is due to the security requirements of the nation. And certainly there it even does not come close to apartheid..

So to label Israel an apartheid state or undemocratic is erroneous !

Yet all this is beside the point. The refusal of the Palestinian Authority to acknowledge Israel as a legitimate Jewish state isn’t a denial of reality; it is a sign of their determination to change that reality. Like Arab leaders going back a century, they seek not to live in peace with the Jewish state, but in place of the Jewish state. Olmert can show up at Annapolis bearing Palestinian sovereignty on a silver platter, with half of Jerusalem thrown in for good measure. He will not walk away with peace. On the contrary: He will intensify the Arab determination to replace the world’s one Jewish state with its 23rd Arab state.

The key to Arab-Israeli peace is not Palestinian statehood. It is to compel the Arab world to abandon its dream of liquidating Israel. As a matter of national self-respect, Olmert should repeat his demand that the Palestinians acknowledge Israel’s Jewish identity - and make it nonnegotiable. If Israel cannot insist even on so fundamental a point of honor, it has already lost more than it knows.

Previously, the Zionists have complained about anybody who called Israel an apartheid state. Now, they demand that the Palestinians recognize it as such.

To wit: Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has made claims that he would not negotiate with anyone, including Mahmoud Abbas, who did not agree to accept as a precondition, in Israel’s words, “Israel’s existence as a Jewish state and as a state of all the Jewish people.”

It is surreal.