#118479 by rowman on 12/06 at 12:55 pm
(94 comments total)

RE: #118472 by Tony Wicher on 12/06 at 12:10 pm

“Oh Tony. I had high hopes that you would be able to exhibit some sort of intellectual capacity and dialog on a sensible, logical level. Clearly I was wrong.

The best you can do is throw around wild and irresponsible assertions born from conspiracy theorist.”

What “conspiracy theorist”? You mean Ilan Pappe? That’s just a typical smear. Again I ask you, find me one sentence in that book which is false, and at least present a coherent argument for its falsity, and I will respect you. I challenge you. I say Pappe’s work is the latest in historical scholarship. The Zionist myths have been exploded, haven’t you heard? Zionism is glimmering before your eyes.

#118500 by rowman on 12/06: “Israel has made multiple concessions towards peace. They have all been rejected and in return, the Arabs send nothing but violence and war. How can you blame Israel...”

All of your “proofs” are meaningless if you (and Israel) do not now seek a real peace, rowman.

Whatever the reasons, living in peace is not achieved by “settlements” on other peoples’ land or by the use or threat with guns and tanks and bombs.

Israel must find a way and it is easily found if it genuinely wants peace. The solution is not “the final solution” learned from the German Nazis.

#118500 by rowman

No, I attempt to find objective media.  It’s very hard in America.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/01/isrlpa16310.htm

RE: #118490 by PatrickHenry on 12/06 at 2:09 pm
“The statistics point out that Israelis kill alot more innocent Palistinians than Palestinians kill innocent Israelis”
That’s funny, there was a source referenced here earlier that showed the complete opposite. But you must be referencing Muslim sources where every Muslim is a victim and every Jew killed is an “enemy combatant”. Or do you just make stuff up?

RE: #118497 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/06 at 2:41 pm
It is the Arab policy that prevents peace. Israel has made multiple concessions towards peace. They have all been rejected and in return, the Arabs send nothing but violence and war. How can you blame Israel?

1dree5:
Not one breathe of truth from your lips. I have proven too many of your lies and don’t read your nonsense.

#118490 by PatrickHenry on 12/06: “...rowman - As with a select lot of posters here at truthdig you have added “Jewish” to my criticism of Israel...”

Something in this repetitive dialogue of mutual criticism and old hatreds suggests that everybody here would be better reading some Buddhist literature for a while - at least until they understand the meaning of “loving kindness” and “compassionate heart” and “peace and harmony”, uhh.

Rowman’s “don’t blame the Jewish people for the lack of peace” is a weak and pathetic excuse, indeed.......

#118438 by rowman

As with a select lot of posters here at truthdig you have added “Jewish” to my criticism of Israel, inferring that my criticism against Israel is against jews or the jewish people, moreover, if Israel was truely democratic the fact that an Israeli citizen is or is not a jew would not be an issue.

The statistics point out that Israelis kill alot more innocent Palistinians than Palestinians kill innocent Israelis.  It is easy to see why this injustice angers Israels neighbors and has a growing negative affect with Americans here at home, after all the cluster bombs killing Lebanese civilians today were made in America and given to Israel.

My beef is with the American media, who for the most part are owned and controlled by jewish americans, devoutly religious or atheist, they clearly put a spin on the news when it involves Israel, either by embellishing, misreporting or simply not reporting events.

http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/

RE: #118472 by Tony Wicher on 12/06 at 12:10 pm

Oh Tony. I had high hopes that you would be able to exhibit some sort of intellectual capacity and dialog on a sensible, logical level. Clearly I was wrong.

The best you can do is throw around wild and irresponsible assertions born from conspiracy theorist. Given your choice or reading, I think it is fair to conclude that you have never looked at both sides of the argument nor have you ever performed any fact checking or research on your own. A little research would reveal the fake quotes by Ben-Gurion in your book. A sensible person would have to question the credibility of the book overall thus revealing the historical errors and fabrications.

David ben Gurion is quoted as saying lots of things. Most of things attributed to him are misquotes and lies made up by pseudo-historians trying to sell books by means of saying things that are contentious. Validate the Quotes!

It is to be noted that the dispute involving the creation of Israel involved substantial violence by the Arab side. Jews also were involved in violence. People were displaced on both sides, not just the Arab side.

Not much noted is that 100,000 Jews who were displaced during the 1948 war from Jerusalem and 20 other towns and villages in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Moreover, another 756,000 Jews were displaced from the surrounding Arab countries over the course of years during and immediately following the war.

The Jews did not expel all of the Arabs. Instead, there was a war and some Arabs were expelled. Many Arabs stayed. Many participated in the Arab war to annihilate the Jews. Many fled to avoid fighting. Wealthy people mostly left before the civil war that began after UN 181 was passed. Many were moved out (e.g. in Haifa) by the British. Many left on the suggestion of Muslim leaders who claimed that Muslims should not live under “Jewish” rule (e.g. Joffa), etc.

The only ethnic cleansing going on here is the admitted purpose of the Muslim nations to annihilate the Jews! Prove to me one fact that shows Israel having this same position.

The Arab position is clearly ethnic cleansing but you do not criticize them! Instead, you devise conspiracy theories to accuse the Jews where no such crime exists.

Re #118437 by rowman on 12/06 at 8:01 am

“The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, is no different from his others. It invents new “facts” and fake quotes by Ben-Gurion and others that were never said.”

I am sure you never read the book, but are just repeating what somebody told you about it. You have not offered one word of substantiation for any of of your assertions. If you can find even one sentence of that book which you can prove is false, I will bow before you. But you actually have to prove it, not just say it’s false.

The fact is, you are a fundamentalist religious fanatic.

RE: #118320 by PatrickHenry on 12/05 at 3:44 pm

My selections from the Qur’an were specifically indented to prove a point.

Israel’s neighbors have no intention of peace. They will not permit it as their law prevents it. They cite these verses specifically as the justification of their continued war against the Jewish people (and anyone else who does not follow Islamic law).

Don’t blame the Jewish people for the lack of peace. Nothing in their doctrine tells them to create war with Muslims, to kill them or murder them for not believing as they do. They are and have been in a defensive posture because of the Arab policy towards Israel.

When you imply that the bipartisan support of Israel in Congress is a result of Jewish influence, you function as classic conspiracy theorist that attributes decisions to nefarious alliances rather than to the choices of a democratic electorate. Moreover, you portray U.S. politicians as being either too incompetent to understand America’s national interest, or so undutiful that they would sell it to any pressure group inferring a profound corruption within the U.S. democratic institution. If this were true, the vast wealth of the oil rich nations would certainly have the upper hand and we would see policy that is anti Israel.

There is something quite convenient and discomfortingly familiar about the tendency to blame a group of Jews for the overall direction of an increasingly controversial U.S. policy. Indeed, like exaggerated claims of Jewish power at other times in history, such an explanation absolves the real powerbrokers and assigns blame to convenient scapegoats.

RE: #118322 by Tony Wicher on 12/05 at 3:45 pm
Just to be clear, It was you who inferred “millions” of residents during 1890 not 1947…

I am not biased towards a Zionist position. My position is held firm on fact and 15 years of research as a prior atheist.

To accept the Hamas position you have to dispose of tangible archeological evidence that substantiates the biblical accounts and proves that the Jews held possession of this land as so stated. Many experts on both sides agree with this.

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, is no different from his others. It invents new “facts” and fake quotes by Ben-Gurion and others that were never said. Pappe’s work should be ignored not because he is a communist or an anti-Zionist, but because he is a bad historian and what he writes is not history, but historical fiction. His work is proven to be full of error and historically inaccurate. To accept his work without having done your homework to substantiate his claims and reconcile with factual evidence is not rational.

There are mountains of archeological data and evidence to substantiate the biblical accounts. It cannot be ignored simply because you choose to be ignorant and lazy about it. To claim it is mythology is profoundly ignorant.

#118326 by Tony Wicher on 12/05: “...the idea that “Israel” is the original homeland of the Jews is based on the Bible..... justify taking over and expelling the people who have been living there ever since (and for that before...”

This is the fantasy that so-called Christians have fooled themselves into believing, TW. They might as well have chosen Sikh or Japanese Shinto as a religion and history to base their old testament on if they were so hard up. All of these users have one thing in common - they are all “chosen by God” and see themselves as the “one and only” just as the Jews.

But the biblical story was that the Jews “emigrated” from Egypt. That puts the Palestinian Arabs as the first occupiers of the land that we know of - and it was never originally called “Israel”! Its all so much biased garbage, really, to suit their own precious point of view.

#118300 by 1dree5 on 12/05: “OLMERT WARNS OF END OF ISRAEL : OLMERT WARNS OF IRAN : GOES ON & ON...”

Oh, I wish you would STOP using upper case capitals so that we could actually READ what you are posting, 1dree5 (and why the change from “1drees”?).......

Also the idea that “Israel” is the original homeland of the Jews is based on the Bible, which rational, 21st century educated people understand is mythology of uncertain provanance and no definite relation to historical fact. There is no proof outside this mythology which you and others believe that there was ever a “Solomon” or a “David”, not one shard of pottery. No doubt there were Jewish tribes living in the area 2500 years ago, but the idea that this could justify taking over and expelling the people who have been living there ever since (and for that before) is just too ridiculous to comtemplate.

Tr #118143 by rowman on 12/05 at 7:46 am

rowman,

All I hear from you is Zionist talking points. I feel like I might as well talk to the Israeli security fence. This idea that Palestine was a sparsely populated country with 250,000 people as of 1947 is just false. If you happen to have any sources to justify this statement (other than the unspported statements of some other Zionists, or impressions of Mark Twan circa 1900) please produce them. I bet you havent read Ilan Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. I accept it as historically accurate. It is a book of great scholarly merit. What do you have to offer?

#118306 by rowman

Propaganda leaflets are nothing new, the zionist controlled media in this country had its period proclaiming everything was “Islamofacist” I glad to say it was a flash in the pan in that I haven’t heard it for over a week.

Your select interpetation of Quran passages can be countered by passages of the old testament where everyone was put to the “ban”.  Killing of men, women and children was commonplace by simply being from another tribe and belief.  Israel is a theocracy, as the arabs in that country are underrepresented and church and state are one.

Israel has a right to exist but so does Palistine, I’m tired as a U.S. taxpayer funding an “ally” who brings ill will upon the U.S. by their unilateral actions, defing U.N. resolutions and as a foreign state has undo influence in our mainstream media and congress, the latter which I hope to remedy on election day with the removal of Steny Hoyer, the Israel firster that he is.

RE: #118300 by 1dree5 on 12/05 at 2:35 pm

You cry so many lies I do not even know where to start with you. The order by the UN to change a textbook is a complete and utter fabrication!

A new textbook is teaching Palestinian kids to hate Israel and think of fighting Israelis as a holy Islamic duty..
The textbooks, published in December and distributed in the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian students, deny Israel’s existence and teach kids — many as young as 11 — that Palestinians are in the midst of a holy war between Muslims and their enemies, according to a Palestinian Media Watch report entitled “From nationalist battle to religious conflict.”

Why does this text book not allow for a Palestinian child to accept Israel as a neighbor?  Because your religion does not permit it! You do not want peace. You want blood, murder and rape!

Everything you say is a lie!

RE: #117939 by 1drees on 12/04 at 11:08 am

Do you really expect me to take you seriously? I have proven you lie. You continue to lie and spread false propaganda. You lack any credibility -as proven- and type as though you’re fueled by an unquenchable hate. Don’t you think your behavior (and that of your Hamas brethren) is a little demonic? Being that your false prophet often confused Satan for G-d, I must assume that your sponsor of hate and murder is demonically influenced.

Want the TRUTH? Here it is. The only hindrance to peace in the Middle East is Islam:

The Qur’an commands Muslims to fight Jews and Christians.
“Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Surah At-Taubah 9:29)
“Jihad (holy fighting in allah’s cause) is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not.” (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:216)

The evidence shows that Muhammad couldn’t always tell the difference between revelations from God and revelations from Satan. The most famous example of Muhammad’s inability to distinguish the true from the false is the embarrassing account of the notorious “Satanic Verses”:

This passage shows:
1. Muhammad’s reception of revelations was influenced by his personal desires;
2. He received a revelation from Satan;
3. He proclaimed the revelation as a message from Allah; (WOW!!!!)
4. He and his followers bowed down in honor of receiving the revelation; and
5. God’s response was, in effect, “Don’t worry about it Muhammad. All prophets proclaim Satanic messages from time to time.” (Proves he was a false prophet!)

dat yo tudth cuz.

RE: #118014 by Tony Wicher on 12/04 at 7:01 pm

There are many “traditional” arguments on this subject but I find yours to be a new one for me. I am glad to hear that you are not one of those who believes that Israel controls the United States. This position is just complete nonsense.

“The reality is that the Zionist project since 1890 has to create an artificial state with a supermajority of Jews. In order to create this state millions of the original residents were expelled from the land where they had their roots.”

Your summation is simply not correct and I think you are confusing your time frames. The land at that time was fairly desolate and held a very small population (less than 250k – not “millions”). Ironically, a significant number of the population at that time was Jewish. It is not artificial, Israel is the original homeland.
Those that you refer to as being “expelled”… Are you referring to those who fled after their failed attack on the Jewish residents? Or perhaps you’re referring to the Jews who were expelled from other countries such as Spain? Or are you referring to the Jews that were forced to leave Israel originally? Please expound.

“No state that is not a democracy has a “right to exist”…”

Israel operates under a parliamentary system as a democratic country So your issue is not with Israel but rather her Arab neighbors Theocracy. Sounds like you are also ready to challenge China, Cuba, etc. but I am glad that Israel is not the issue.

“…unless it ends Zionism”

I think you are confused about what Zionism is. There is much propaganda about it but let’s clarify. Zionism is simply a desire for the Jewish people return to their homeland. If you really want to learn more about it, I would recommend http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm
mbs-026 Zionism: What It Is and What It Is Not

RE: #117974 by cyrena on 12/04 at 3:47 pm

Hello cyrena. I was specifically addressing the Alison Weir platform as so mentioned earlier and cited as a resource. Her platform is based on Israel not having a right to exist…

Nonetheless, I am glad that you recognize the truth in the matter.

Best regards

#117709 by 1drees on 12/03 at 11:03 am: “...the Israeli flag which is a statement of its plans...... The flag has two colors blue & white, it has two blue stripes running horizontally, one each on the top side and the bottom side and in the middle the blue star of David Against a white base........ Ok now understand this, the blue star of david is the Isreali people and two blue stripes are two RIVERS, the top stripe being the RIVER TIGRIS in IRAQ and the bottom stripe is the RIVER NILE IN EGYPT and the enclosing area is the state of Israel , the land of ZIONISTIC JEWS and that they will try to work their wy to te land as designated by their FLAG .....ie extending from IRAQ TO EGYPT in their madness and who knows whether they will survive this folly of a dream but they are bent on gambling at all COSTs........... so Expansionism is a very basic Isreali dream for which they have always been preparing militarily, ever noticed the amounts of weapons Israelis import every year...”

Such is nationalism, 1drees, but in reality, Israel is getting oil and water piped through Lebanon from Turkey. There is nothing they will stop at to protect those vital lifelines.

But the “star of David”, like the swastika, is a far more ancient symbol than people realize and is not “owned” by the Jews even though they use it as a national and religious symbol.

The “hexagram” can be traced back to ancient Hindu Tantric religious texts and the Anahata chakra inparticular as well as a basis for yantras http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Anahata.htm

Re #117919 by rowman on 12/04 at 10:04 am

I like to think I am reasonable and objective. You don’t sound that way to me. What you sound like is some brochure put out by the Israeli government, or maybe a George W. Bush press conference. I’m sure you really believe this stuff, but it is a totally false picture of reality. The reality is that the Zionist project since 1890 has to create an artificial state with a supermajority of Jews. In order to create this state millions of the original residents were expelled from the land where they had their roots. This project is fundamentally racist and colonialist. Racism and colonialism were normal in 1890, but in 2007 it is an anachronism. The state of Israel was born in blood and in injustice.

No state that is not a democracy has a “right to exist”, whether Israel or any other country. That is, no state has a right to be undemocratic and to violate human rights. That not does mean that everybody in such a state should be killed or expelled; what it means is that democratic countries, such as the United States, should put pressure on all such states, including Israel, to become democracies. Israel will never be a democracy as long as the requirement for a Jewish supermajority is more important than democracy and human rights. It is time for the United States to stop enabling Israeli militarism and oppression of Palestinians.

I am not one of those who believes that Israel controls the United States. Israel is a client of the United States. It has been faithfully doing as the U.S. has told it to do for the last 60 years. If the U.S. instead adopts a peace-oriented, non-imperialist foreign policy and tells Israel that it will not support it diplomatically, militarily or economically unless it ends Zionism and institutes democracy, Israel will also comply, no matter how loud it screams. If it agrees to do so, the United States should offer its full support in making the transition.

#117906 by rowman
• Much of the debate is centered on one common issue. Does Israel have a sovereign right to the land or as some frame it, a right to exist?

Rowman,
I fear you do the very same thing of which you have accused others, is misstating the real issue here, on what the debate has been ‘created’ to allegedly ‘center’ on. This is an intentional misrepresentation on issues of sovereignty, as well as the framing of it as “Israel’s right to exist”.
So, while non of us can dispute that it’s turned ‘complicated’, this suggestion of yours should be debunked (as we’ve had to do countless times) for the misrepresentation that it is.
There is NO ‘debate’ about Israel’s ‘right to exist’ on the territory, and within the borders that were defined the International body in 1948. And, they didn’t give the land to Israel based on any previous title to it, based on any biblical interpretations. Still, in terms of the actual land, and what holds then, and today, the property was ‘given’ to Israel. So, nobody, (including the Palestinians, whether they like it or not) is debating that issue at this point. We can all read, (including the Palestinians) and so the issue is academic. An international body assigned a certain portion of land that had been previously occupied by a combination population of Arabs, Jews and Christians. (though we know that the Jews and the Christians were in the minorities until sometime around 1940, give or take)

The debate now, centers around two issues. The first is that they should leave any occupied territories that were NOT part of the original gift in 1948. If the first part of that is accomplished, the second part of the issue: did they have a right to kick out every single non-Jew living in the area at the time, and do any of them have a right to return, is the more complicated, but not really as much a ‘sovereignty’ issue as you’d like to claim, since nobody is trying to take any of that original land away from them, or tell them how to operate politically, within that space. Consequently, if the first part of the issue were solved, (and long ago) there probably would not BE a second issue, though I’m certain that there will always be some Palestinians who will want to return to the space that they occupied for thousands of years before they were forcibly removed by the creation of a Jewish state.

STILL, if the Israelis would simply go back to what was originally designated to them, (the first part of the problem) that would clearly set a way toward reducing the ongoing destruction and misery that is wiping out so much of humanity in the area, because….based on very basic human rights, they ALL deserve that.

Israel’s ‘right to exist’ was already codified in 1948, and the borders designating that space for them to ‘exist’ were built into that same law. If they ever decide to simply follow those laws that gave them the ‘right to exist’, they’d be all the better off for it.

RE: #117842 by 1drees on 12/03 at 11:33 pm

You submit false information… again. I will not waste my time correcting all of your errors so lets address just one.

The “Mossad Motto” is derived from Proverbs.

Former:
“For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war.” - Proverbs 24 6. It is commonly misquoted “By way of deception thou shalt make war”, which is the title of a book by Victor Ostrovsky critical of the organization.

New:
The motto was recently changed to Proverbs XI, 14:
“Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.”

I would say “go read the verses yourself” but we already know where your credibility lies….Cuz

RE: #117745 by Robert on 12/03 at 1:47 pm
Will not waste my time disputing her statistics. Doing so would give them some sort of credibility. They are based on a faulty premise thus invalidating them as a whole.
Nothing in your posts cause me to believe you really understand the issues or have fist hand knowledge. You draw from anti Semitic sources and attempt to submit propaganda as fact.

You want to discuss truth? Well let’s look at the data behind your last source…

Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers.
Killed when participating in hostilities.
Killed while standing next to rocket launchers that had fired Qassams at Israel.
Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers who came to arrest him.
Killed during an operation to arrest wanted men in Ras al-’Ein neighborhood.
Killed when he was about to fire Qassam rockets at Israel.
Killed during an exchange of gunfire with soldiers near the the Gaza perimeter fence.
Killed while passed near armed people during incursion into the area.
Killed while infiltrating a settlement.
Killed in an exchange of gunfire after she tried to infiltrate the Rafah Yam settlement.
Killed during an attempt to plant explosives near the settlement.

It goes on and on… In most cases, those that were killed were not innocent.  This must be the truth you reference.

I will not dispute that there are innocent casualties; it’s a very difficult environment to secure for the safety of Israel and well as “Palestinians”.  You also ignore their humanitarian efforts in the region.  And what about the “Palestinians” who live in Israel and do not agree with the extremists? Ever talk to them? Do you even understand the drivers behind the extremist you so support?

Tony,
You seem like a reasonable person and I appreciate that. It takes an objective mind to be able to filter through much of the non sense posted by those so mentioned.  I do not want to turn this into a debate about Alison Weir. She is biased towards one side of the argument and like most activists, uses statistics and interprets data to further her agenda. Let’s at least be honest about it.

Much of the debate is centered on one common issue. Does Israel have a sovereign right to the land or as some frame it, a right to exist?

Alison, and many here, hold the thought that “Israel is occupying land that does not belong to it”. This is the platform that all her data is filtered through. There are no facts to support this.

Others are of the opinion that they do have a sovereign right to the land. This is based on historical facts and archeological evidence as well as international agreements in more recent years.

For those opposed to Israel’s right to exist, I challenge you to map the standards and document the logic this is based on from generally accepted arguments supporting this position. Then apply this to every other nation in existence and hold them to the same standards. Then ask yourself if the United States has a right to exist? How about Slovakia? Turkmenistan? Namibia? etc. etc. etc.

In fact, Israel boasts a far stronger “right to exist” than does its American counterpart (or many other nations) because of its ancient claim to the disputed land, and long-standing endorsement by international organizations.
In order to place these realities in proper perspective, it’s first necessary to reject some thirty years of wildly irresponsible anti-Israel propaganda. First of all, it’s not true in any sense that the modern Jewish State ever supplanted or destroyed an existing nation of “Palestine.” From the time of definitive destruction of the ancient Jewish commonwealth in 70 A.D., the land that comprises the current State of Israel never enjoyed independent existence but, rather, passed back and forth among competing world empires—Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader, Mamaluke, Ottoman and British. Over the course of more than 1,800 years, no nation with the name “Palestine” appeared on any maps, anywhere. The distinguished Arab-American historian Philip Hitti, professor at Princeton University, testified to the Anglo American Committee in 1946: ‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in 1867, shortly before the commencement of modern Jewish resettlement, and described it as “a desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds—a silent, mournful expanse… A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.” According to the careful population figures of the Ottoman Empire, in 1882 (at the very beginning of the modern, organized Jewish immigration back to the ancestral home), the total population of land between the Jordan and the Sea was less than 250,000 – in an area that today supports ten million people, Israelis and Palestinians.

Cont:

The resettlement of the sparsely populated Holy Land by the descendants of its ancient inhabitants, however, did not take place solely in the modern era. Throughout Jewish history, waves of returnees came back to the sacred soil of their ancestors. In the 8th and 9th centuries, A.D., Jewish immigrants re-established major communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias; by the 11th Century, they had built new communities in Jaffa, Ashkelon, Caesarea and Rafah. In the 16th Century, more Jewish immigrants developed the famous center of mysticism in Safed and beginning in the 1700’s religious scholars and pilgrims intensely repopulated Jerusalem.

Moreover, the Jewish title to the land of Israel received long-standing recognition from international organizations that didn’t even exist at the time of American independence. On July 24, 1922, the 52 governments of the League of Nations formally recognized and endorsed the British Balfour Declaration calling for “reconstituting….a national home for the Jewish people” in the land with which that people enjoyed “historical connections.” Twenty-five years later, the United Nations (successor body to the League of Nations) validated this title with the partition plan, dividing the British Mandate in the area into two states—one Jewish, one Arab. The Arab leadership violently rejected that solution, but after Israel’s bloody war for Independence the UN recognized Israel as a full member state in 1949.

Mission statement, continued from below)

There are a variety of organizations and individuals in Israel who are protesting their government’s policies, and who are working strenuously and courageously on behalf of human rights and justice. It is their intent to create a just and fair nation with equal rights for all its citizens. They are refusing to serve in the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and are actively trying to prevent Palestinian homes from being bulldozed. These actions are also not covered in the American media.

American support of the Israeli government is against our national interest on every level: It places us at war with populations whose desperate plight we are helping to create, and who, quite correctly, place the responsibility for their sufferings on us. It makes us an accomplice to war crimes and an accessory to oppression. This also is not reported.

In analyzing the American media, we are increasingly discovering a cover-up of appalling proportions. Israel is being protected, the news about Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general is being distorted, and the American public is being manipulated.

We believe strongly that if Americans knew the truth about Israel and Palestine—about the massive amount of our tax money that is being given away to Israel, and about the human costs of Israel’s American-financed militarism—they would demand an immediate re-thinking of our policies in this region.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to inform the American public accurately about this area. Most of all, it is to inform Americans about our enormous, and too often invisible, personal connection to it.

Americans, through our blank check to Israel, are empowering the worst elements of Israeli society, and undermining those working for a just, peaceful, and nondiscriminatory nation.

We are driving the violence in this region.
We can stop it.

Re #117735 by rowman on 12/03 at 12:56 pm

rowman,

Refuting 1drees is like shooting fish in a barrel. He obviously doesn’t know anything and says any nonsense he has picked up. Robert is different. He has really done his homework. His sources are generally quite solid.

I just took a look at that “ifamericaknew” site and so far I agree with everything I read there and believe the statistics on the front page to be accurate. In fact, I liked it so much I am going to post their mission statement.

MISSION STATEMENT

In a democracy, the ultimate responsibility for a nation’s actions rests with its citizens. The top rung of government – the entity with the ultimate power of governance – is the asserted will of the people. Therefore, in any democracy, it is essential that its citizens be fully and accurately informed.

In the United States, currently the most powerful nation on earth, it is even more essential that its citizens receive complete and undistorted information on topics of importance, so that they may wield their extraordinary power with wisdom and intelligence.

Unfortunately, such information is not always forthcoming.

The mission of If Americans Knew is to inform and educate the American public on issues of major significance that are unreported, underreported, or misreported in the American media.

It is our belief that when Americans know the facts on a subject, they will, in the final analysis, act in accordance with morality, justice, and the best interests of their nation, and of the world. With insufficient information, or distorted information, they may do the precise opposite.

It is the mission of If Americans Knew to ensure that this does not happen – that the information on which Americans base their actions is complete, accurate, and undistorted by conscious or unconscious bias, by lies of either commission or omission, or by pressures exerted by powerful special interest groups. It is our goal to supply the information essential to those responsible for the actions of the strongest nation on earth – the American people.

Action Focus #1
Israel is the largest recipient of US. aid in the entire world. It receives more aid than that given to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean, put together.

Israel receives over $10 million dollars per day from the United States, and there is evidence that the total figure is closer to $15 million a day. Yet this information is almost never printed in American newspapers. Coverage of the Middle East in general, and of Israel in particular, virtually never reports this enormous American connection with this region.

Empowered by American money, Israel is occupying land that does not belong to it, is breaking numerous international laws and conventions of which it is a signatory, and is promulgating policies of brutality that have been condemned by the United Nations, the European Union, the National Council of Churches, Amnesty International, the International Red Cross, and numerous other international bodies. This truth is also rarely reported.

Through the money and weaponry provided by the United States, Israel is imposing an ethnically discriminatory nation on land that was previously multicultural. There is ethnic and religious discrimination inherent in its national identity, and a doctrine of the supremacy of one group over all others permeates its political, financial, and military policies. This also is virtually never reported. (continued above)

#117735 by rowman

Thanks for the lesson, I found your history info interesting.

#117653 by rowman on 12/03 at 5:31 am
(78 comments total)

RE: #117568 by Robert on 12/02 at 3:20 pm
Hmmm, Alison Weir runs ifanericansknew web site.

“Robert, you quote and source from a leading ANTI SEMITE PROPOGANDIST! Using sources such as this only proves to me your bias and bigotry. Your drunk on the propaganda machine and it has blocked your ability to reason from truth and facts. I hope you do wake up. You’re deep into anti Semitism and I don’t think you realize it.”
====================================

rowman...Well well...nice going there with your zionist garbage and ranting.

Your attacks on Alison Weir and your anti-semetic labels are nothing new on truthdig. Your zionist/ADL tactics to silence anyone who posts the facts/truth about your Israeli IDF “killers” are NOT going to work on me and other Americans who are NOT afraid to tell and post the “TRUTH”!

Instead of trying to smear Alison Weir, one wonders why you did NOT dispute the statistics from http://www.ifamericansknew.com ? Are the numbers lies? Are the deaths NOT real? What is so anti-semetic regarding deaths/killings of Palestinians, Israelis and the rest of numbers?

Just to back-up the statistics from the above website… here is one WEBSITE STATISTICS that is from the “horse’s mouth” so to speak:

B’TSELEM...THE ISRAELI INFORMATION CENTER FOR “HUMAN RIGHTS” IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

Fatalities Statistics:

Click on the numbers for a list of individual names and details about the circumstances of their death.

29.9.2000-30.11.2007 Occupied Territories Israel

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4240 64

Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians 41

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 233 471

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 236 87

Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians 17 36

Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces 10

Additional data (included in previous table)

Occupied Territories Israel

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 860 3

Israeli minors killed by Palestinians 39 80
Palestinians killed during the course of a targeted killing 367

Palestinians who were the object of a targeted killing 218

Palestinians killed by Palestinians for suspected collaboration with Israel 120

Palestinians who took part in the hostilities and were killed by Israeli security forces 1378 55

Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings).  2038 5

Palestinians who were killed by Israeli security forces and it is not known if they were taking part in the hostilities 605 3

Cilck on link/URL for data and statistics/numbers:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp

RE: #117709 by 1drees on 12/03 at 11:03 am

More propagandist lies. Your assessment of the Israel flag is a complete fabrication.

The Blue Stripes:
The blue stripes on the Zionist flag were inspired by the stripes on the tallit (prayer shawl). The tallit has two separate symbolic aspects: the light blue hue and the stripes. Some say that the stripes are meant to recall the one dyed strand of the ritual fringes (tzitzit). This leads to the significance of the hue itself. According to the Torah, one strand in the tzitzit should be light blue. To judge from references in the Talmud, it was a shade between green and blue. Many symbolic meanings were attributed to it. Rabbi Meir said that it recalls the color of the sky; Rabbi Judah ben Illai maintained that the color of Aaron’s staff was light blue, as were the Tablets of the Law, and this is why God commanded the Jews to include it on their prayer shawls: “As long as the people of Israel are looking at this tehelet, they are reminded of {the words} written on the tablets and observe them.” In other words, the sight of the color tehelet leads to observance of the commandments. White and tehelet, along with gold and purple, were the colors of the High Priest’s raiment (Exodus 28: 4,43) and of the curtains of the Tabernacle (Exodus 26). They were considered to be the colors of purity symbolizing the spirituality of the Jewish people.

The Star of David:
Unlike the menora (candelabrum), the Lion of Judah, the shofar (ram’s horn) and the lulav (palm frond), the Star of David was never a uniquely Jewish symbol. The standard name for the geometric shape is a hexagram or six-pointed star, composed of two interlocking equilateral triangles. In a classic article, Gershom Sholem shed light on the history of the “Star of David” and its connection with Judaism and tried to answer the question whether it was appropriate to include it in the national flag or state emblem.*
One of the first Jewish uses of the Star of David was as part of a colophon, the special emblem printed on the title page of a book. Sometimes the printer included his family name in the colophon; or chose an illustration that alluded to his name, ancestry, or the local prince, or a symbol of success and blessing. The idea was to differentiate this printer’s books from those of his competitors and to embellish the title page. Colophons are as old as the printing press itself.
According to Sholem, the motive for the widespread use of the Star of David was a wish to imitate Christianity. During the Emancipation, Jews needed a symbol of Judaism parallel to the cross, the universal symbol of Christianity. In particular, they wanted something to adorn the walls of the modern Jewish house of worship that would be symbolic like the cross. This is why the Star of David became prominent in the nineteenth century and why it was later used on ritual objects and in synagogues and eventually reached Poland and Russia. The pursuit of imitation, in Sholem’s opinion, led to the dissemination of an emblem that was not really Jewish and conveyed no Jewish message. In his opinion, it was also the reason why the Star of David satisfied Zionism: it was a symbol which had already attained wide circulation among the Jewish communities but at the same time evoked no clear-cut religious associations. The Star of David became the emblem of Zionist Jews everywhere. Non-Jews regarded it as representing not only the Zionist current in Judaism, but Jewry as a whole.

Your credibility shot!

RE: #117568 by Robert on 12/02 at 3:20 pm
Hmmm, Alison Weir runs ifanericansknew web site.

Robert, you quote and source from a leading ANTI SEMITE PROPOGANDIST! Using sources such as this only proves to me your bias and bigotry. Your drunk on the propaganda machine and it has blocked your ability to reason from truth and facts. I hope you do wake up. You’re deep into anti Semitism and I don’t think you realize it.

To help, here is a small critique on Ms. Weir from a real journalist:
http://www.chron.org/tools/viewart.php?artid=225

Weir delivers bias, bigotry in anti-Israel talk
Journalist’s biased claims go unchallenged
Posted 11-15-2001, 11:07
by Richard Goldberg
Meet Alison Weir, self-proclaimed journalist, savior of the Palestinian people and anti-Semite extraordinaire…

#117644 by PatrickHenry on 12/03 at 4:20 am

Patrick,

If there was no instigation by Hamas there would be no response by the Israelis.

Instead after leaving Gaza....look what happens with the rockets being sent into Israel every day.  Why should Israel leave the West Bank if the same thing is certain to happen.

Does Hamas who is in charge start up the beginnings of responsible government? A normal run citizenry? Something of that order. A semblance. So businesses and factory-startups can reopen and develop. Markets regained.  Employment tackled and reduced.  Investments made by other countries who are waiting in the wing. The ball is in their court and its been downhill since they took over.

#117609 by Howard

You post failed to mention the colleral damage the Israeli response usually provides.

If you know anything about this area of the world you know revenge killing is a real problem.  The Israelis moved righteous property owners off their land for many of the kibbutz being built there, mostly by U.S. jews.  Many members in Palistinian families have been killed by Israelis in reprisals, all listed as terrorists.

The Palistinians will keep comming back until they feel they have regained their property or avenged their family, if it takes generations.

#117615 by Tony Wicher

Tony, Thanks so much for this link. It’s helpful. I’m thinking that you may already be aware of the upcoming event in LA, where Barack Obama will speak again. If not, it’s Dec. 10th, at the Gibson Amphitheater. At least I think she said Gibson. It was an older lady that called me, and it was difficult to make out what she was saying. I’ve also been away for so long that I’m unfamiliar with any Amphitheater by that name in LA. Maybe it’s an older place re-named?

Anyway, it may be worth checking out. I’m planning to attend. I’m sure other details are available on his web site or there in the area.

And, I just read the below piece posted in the NY Times today. I thought it was good, but then I always appreciate journalism from Frank Rich.

Who’s Afraid of Barack Obama?
By Frank Rich
The New York Times
Sunday 02 December 2007

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120207D.shtml

Re #117616 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/02 at 9:09 pm

I think Obama is a “work in progress” and I hope his position will evolve. Currently the international consensus, supported by virtually every ountry in the U.N. is for a two-state solution with Israel withdrawing completely from the OPT. So far Obama is staying within those parameters.

Israel was only one issue discussed at the foreign policy forum at the link I gave cyrena. It’s worth watching.

#117314 by Non Credo on 12/01 at 5:53 am
(699 comments total)

“No matter what Howard says, I know I do not hate “the Jews”.”

Rabid Zionists can sure be detestable, but I guess no more so than other kinds of fanatics. I grew up around lots of Jews, most of whom were atheists, socialists and internationalists. The subject of Israel never came between us. These rich Republican Zionists Jews are not my idea of Jews at all.

#117614 by Tony Wicher on 12/02 at 8:43 pm - Re #117472 by cyrena on 12/02 at 12:49 am - “IS this in fact what Obama is suggesting?” - “ Unfortunately, I heard him say just the opposite today...”

“I spoke with Prime Minister Olmert today, and assured him of my strong support for this effort and my unshakeable commitment to Israel’s security as a core principle as negotiations move forward.

“The Administration deserves credit for finally trying to use presidential diplomacy to bring the parties together. It’s a big change from the last six and a half years, when President Bush badly neglected this conflict.....

Recognizing the complexity of the issues under discussion and the importance of the conflict, it is my hope that this conference is just the start of a sustained push by the United States, the Israelis and the Palestinians to achieve the goal of two states living side-by-side in peace and security.” http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/11/27/4835 08.aspx

Well, “two states living side by side” where there was once ONE state for both is whose fantasy???

I guess that the “complexity of the issues under discussion” relates to shoving the issue of demographics under the rug to please - whoever.

The “importance of the conflict” is an absurdity as there is NO conflict any more than there is a “war” in Eye-Rak. They are both invasions and one-sided military occupations!

“The Administration deserves credit” means that Obama is once agin co-iopertaing with ‘forces in Washington’ (AIPAC and the White House, uhh) as he did with Pakistan and the Taleban/Al Qaeada!

cyrena,

Obama just participated in an important foreign policy forum with Anthony Lake and others which took questions from the audience, including one on Israel. In spite of the fact that I thought he got it wrong on the Israel question, he made a strong impression on me. Here is the link:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/Ob amaHQ/Cx7J

Re #117472 by cyrena on 12/02 at 12:49 am
(1688 comments total)

“Tony, I’m curious, (and maybe catching up as well). IS this in fact what Obama is suggesting? Is he willing to go on the record as suggesting that America, (or at least the Democratic Party) does believe in, and will support a one-state solution? Or, a plan B democracy for Israel/Palestine?”
--------------------------------------------------
Not so far, cyrena. Unfortunately, I heard him say just the opposite today, which is that the Annapolis conference is about a two-state solution, and those who are against a two-state solution in any way, shape or form, such as Hamas, should not be invited.
He must be aware of the One Democratic State solution that has been proposed by Palestinian negotiators, but so far he has not said anything about it.

#117582 by Patrick Henry on 12/02 at 5:11 pm
(366 comments total)

Re: #117568 by Robert

“And you wonder why some disgruntled palistinians continue to shoot those oversize pop bottle rockets at Israel. “
=====================================

You must be a little boy of 14 or 13 years of age to make the above statement.  Understandably, too, because otherwise you would understand that random rockets and mortars fired at civilians do kill and maim.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lmOl4alnV0c

Four civilians have died in the Israeli town of Sderot, which sits close to Gaza’s northeast border. But the lack of bloodshed has not been from a lack of trying. Terrorists have launched some 1,500 Qassam rockets into Israel over the last two years. They simply cannot yet aim their rockets with accuracy or consistency.

Sderot has suffered greatly. Qassam rockets fired randomly from behind the Gaza border often strike Sderot’s schools and houses, and constantly threaten the lives of its citizens. Thousands of residents, no longer willing to live under these conditions, have abandoned the town.

With Hamas in control of Gaza, re-occupation may be the only card left for Israel to play. As long as Gaza is under Hamas control, comprehensive peace will never be achieved. In the meantime, Gazans will not stop firing rockets into Israel. Moreover, they are expected to improve the accuracy and lethality of their weapons.

Some rockets have come close to the power plant in the Israeli town of Ashkelon. It is only a matter of time before the Palestinians acquire more advanced rockets that can reach Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.

#117583 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/02 at 5:14 pm

Well,
Thank goodness those 2 guys did. And for our side. Imagine. Nazis were working on it also.  We did not know how far along they were on finishing it.

And Japan would have gone down tuff if we did not have it. Would have lost my dad and 4 uncles if we had to invade Japan.

I never said anything about “chosen people’; you did and have more than once.  Get hold of yourelf.

You can’t blame Israel for the high cost of oil.  I think the Arabs have all almost all of it.  Ever hear of that? You know, the cartel and all. OPEC. The Arabs don’t export anything else except terrorists hitting everyone.

and what does your comment “ The other thing that both you Zionist apologisers and the rest of the conceited fools in the world like to overlook..”
really say about your rational writing. Didn’t your mother ever teach you if you can’t say anything nice keep quiet?

And if everyone else is a ‘ conceited fool ‘, why then...why the that makes you one smart cookie. congratulatons, man.

#117578 by Howard on 12/02 at 4:44 pm: Yes, and here are some more statistics...... Of 100 million refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel...”

Whatever you think about Israel and its garbage about being “chosen by God”, there are two things which came out of the WW2 era which we are all forced to live with, Howard.

One is the ongoing mess in the M.East which is being endlessly manipulated for perceived interests by opposing factions but is causing the price of oil to skyrocket from US$30 per barrel a mere few years ago to US$100 and perhaps even double that before long.

The other thing that both you Zionist apologisers and the rest of the conceited fools in the world like to overlook is that nuclear WMD’s are mankind’s greatesk threat to future survival on this planet. Both the A-bomb and the H-bomb were developed by Jews in the USA.

It was American German-Jew, Robert (I have no regrets) Oppenheimer who developed the A-bomb (1944) and an insane Hungarian migrant Jew, Edward Teller who developed the H-bomb (1950), the world’s first nuclear WMD’s, and the world has never been the same since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

Re: #117568 by Robert

And you wonder why some disgruntled palistinians continue to shoot those oversize pop bottle rockets at Israel.

Yes, and here are some more statistics

In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence—some 70% of them fled without ever being ordered by Israel to leave, most of those without ever having seen an Israeli soldier.

Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

Some 650,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while about 850,000 Jews were forced to leave Muslim countries.

In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees from Palestine were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of 100 million refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

There are 22 Arab countries (with 800 times the land mass of Israel), not counting the Palestinian territories. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel has agreed under several proposals to cede most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even supported the arming of its police force after the Oslo Accords in 1993.

During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths and maintained in good order at Israel’s expense.