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Ear to the Ground

Saudis Defend Decision to Lash Rape Victims

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Posted on Nov 21, 2007

The Saudi Arabian justice ministry has defended the high court’s decision to lash and imprison a 19-year-old girl and her male friend, both of whom were gang-raped last year. The two are being punished for “illegal mingling” of the sexes and, unofficially, taking their story to the media. The leading Democratic candidates have all signaled their outrage, but the Bush administration has adopted a mind-your-own-business approach.


BBC:

The 19-year-old, who has not been named, was travelling in a car with a male friend last year, when the car was attacked by a gang of seven men who raped both of them.

She has become known as the “Qatif girl”, a reference to the largely Shia town which she comes from.

Four of the men were convicted of kidnapping - but the court also sentenced the woman and her friend to receive 90 lashes each for the crime of “illegal mingling”.

Last week the court increased the woman’s sentence to 200 lashes and six months in prison.

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By 1drees, November 30, 2007 at 5:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Douglas Chalmers :

True that maybe TRUTHDIG should not focus on the GWB/Cheney/etc getting the world into wars all the times. it is kind of stressing.

Ok the SAUDI rape case & the verdict may seem like a lighter news and make a change in the mood of the people.

But keeping on the same lighter side could we have some news about the very notorious RAPES within the US military or by the US military that are being covered up by everyone(including the superior officers of the women soldiers raped while on military duty at various places in the world recently including IRAQ & guantanamo) Seems everyone wants to believe that those never happenned. How about a news report on all those which the TD never covered yet they bring this weird one from far far away.

How about adding to all these facts the TESTIMONY of Jessica Lynch who was ordered to say that SHE WAS RAPED and a year later she had the guts to come out and tell the truth that that RAPE never happenned but that she was ordered to say it, Dont you see a pattern of trying to splashing mud on others while being not so holy.

one of the world problems is that America had never really attained the perfection that was required to be able to guide other younger nations,i mean its like the pot calling the kettle “black”.
Had USA been an expert at everything maybe its problems would never have arisen but they are there and then not being able to find the way out of them , maybe the US people like to focus on telling others what to do,when they are perfectly lost themselves.

there are various women soldiers that have been raped and denied justice in the US military, in case you didnt know it before , now you know that too and if you want you can find their testimonies and names easily, if you want to look. I have had the misfortunate of discovering all that a long while back maybe you should look it up too.
Like charity, improvements also begin at home.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 28, 2007 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

#116492 by A Khokar on 11/28: “All women; suffer from an unending bane, commonly prevalent in the house of their in laws; and outside even the Courts and the culture; when put to test; prove to be their worst adversaries….”

Being “put to test”   is originally the characteristic obsession of South Asian society, not Arab cultures, AK. That is a religious/culural fundamentalism but it is not in any way exclusive to Arab society. Such are the obscene ravings of impotent men, uhh.

It reminds me of the Indian movie “Fire”   directed by Deepa Mehta 1996. “... brave women surrounded by cardboard men…” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116308/  If you can’t swallow the truth….burn it!

Hindu fundamentalists ...attacked theatres showing the film in New Delhi, Bombay and other cities, causing it to be sent back to India’s censor board for review. “...the film brings into the public domain the hypocrisy and tyranny of the patriarchal family, the issue of women’s sexuality and makes a strong statement about women-women relationships,” Mehta had said….....

A radical Hindu leader whose party has vandalised cinema halls showing a lesbian love story has said the attacks would cease if the two women were shown to be Moslem instead of Hindu…..  “Why does the story revolve around a Hindu family?” he said.  “Why has the filmmaker named the main characters Sita and Radha?” (named after Hindu goddesses).

The female characters’ names are related to the ancient Hindu epic, the Ramayana. Rama the prince, is held up as a moral model for men. But being the ideal guy is never easy, and in ``The Ramayana’’ the hero is “put to the test” when his bride, the ravishing Sita, is abducted by an evil demon king, Rawana.  Rama’s wife, Sita, is the ideal female and Radha is the wife of Krishna, the god.

Video clip Deepa Mehta’s Fire - Shabana Azmi & Nandita Das http://www.bollywoodsargam.com/video_todayfeaturedvideo.php?blockbustermovieclip=243wjJ_Z8yI—-latest-Deepa_Mehta’s_Fire_-_Shabana_Azmi_&_Nandita_Das_featured_hollywood_blockbuster_video.html

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By John Hanks, November 28, 2007 at 8:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

During the 1880’s one of our more disgusting rich crooks said that “He would just hire one half of the population to kill the other half.”  Isn’t this what we have with the sexes?  One half keeps an eye on the other half.  Men enjoy the pleasures of lying and bullying, while women enjoy the pleasures of moralizing.  (It’s called “divide and conquer”)  The same principle exists in Saudi Arabia and the U.S.  Only the means are different.

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By A Khokar, November 28, 2007 at 2:57 am Link to this comment

#116001 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/26 at 3:11 pm

I know little bit of Arabian culture. All most, all the marriages in that culture are the ‘arranged marriages’. After wedding; girls are expected to adopt and adjust themselves in the new house at the wishes of their husbands and their families, to whom they might have not even seen before. At the same time, girls are supposed to be chaste, virgin and persons of unblemished character before their marriages. These virtues and moral excellence set upon the Arab girls in today’s changing world are seen as their biggest predicament.

Even a small blip surfacing at later stage; pointing at her or blemishing her character in the past can tarnish her future life. All women; suffer from an unending bane, commonly prevalent in the house of their in laws; and outside even the Courts and the culture; when put to test; prove to be their worst adversaries. 

Qatif girl story is just a little glimpse of the miseries being faced by women in that part of the world that in effort to scrap her past (fearing that it may tarnish her future life); she had to put up with such an ordeal. Middle Eastern women are but; subservient to their men.

East or west; women only know; to suffer and stay in peonage and servitude of men and their dominance.
—————————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By John Hanks, November 26, 2007 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As long as we believe in cultural relativism, I would like to suggest that we accept the fact that a Saudi, Israel, and Republican cartel combined to pull off 911 as the beginning of a protection racket.  I believe sedition, subversion and treason are unique to the criminal way of life and it is up to them to deal with it.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 26, 2007 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

#115972 by A Khokar on 11/26 at 12:30 pm: “The hate full discrimination of women is not only common in the East or in the land of Arab only…...see the fact sheet of USA…”

You are excusing yourself again, AK, for justifying the atack on the “Girl from Qatif”. First, you said she was a “newlywed” , and then that “the woman and her lover met in his car for a tryst” . That is not convincing behaviour for a NEWLYWED!

You then say “the woman was in an indecent condition as she had tossed away her clothes, then the assault occurred on her and the man” . What really happened was that this was the way she appeared AFTER the attack.

Stories have been made up by the Saudis to justify this miscarriage of what they pathetically call justice. But you have also avoided responding to EVERYTHING I mentioned in my previous posts, too, AK.


#“I would only say:-  Don’t stretch the ‘robe of your piety’ too far to impress others! Look at the attires of yours; it’s all blackened and full of holes. Love for all, Hatred for none”

That is your garbage translation from your holy book? It sounds just like the fundamentalist Christians as they seek to justify their own ignorance and wrong actions. As you said in another topic you are also trying to justify yourself in, you now sound like you are playing “saxophone tunes to a buffalo” !!! http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071118_truthdigger_of_the_week_desmond_tutu/

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By hippy pam, November 26, 2007 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

I DO NOT think you are an IDIOT…I think you are an intelligent individual with the right AND RESPONSIBILITY to have AND VOICE your opinion[I cap to highlight certain words/ideas]I AGREE that AMERICA SUCKS UP to certain people/countries as long as it suits the P.T.Bs…OUR POWER PEOPLE show THE WORLD who/how/what AMERICA is and who/how/what AMERICA stands for….in other words….IF YOU[other countries] DON’T PLAY THE GAME WHEN/HOW his imperial HIGHA** BUSH*T wants it played…you are in DEEP DOODOO….BUSH*T WILL INVADE YOU AND BOMB YOU INTO SUBMISSION…..after all-it is HIS SANDBOX.[we allow him to keep THE POWER…...

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By The Village Idiot, November 26, 2007 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

(Sorry about the double post, I hit ‘preview’ then submit by accident while adding more babbling to my rant… I’m an idiot after all)...

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By The Village Idiot, November 26, 2007 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

Wow, Pam, if you turn down the volume I’ll read what you wrote.

Anyway, so she’s suddenly an “Adultresssssss?” (It’s sexier when you draw out the “s” sound). From what I hear, anyone will confess to anything after hanging out in a Saudi jail for awhile, which also makes it a great rendition destination this time of year. And like that changes anything? I wouldn’t care if she’d been married to 5 different men, having an affair with 10 others, and stealing all their money; that would be a matter of property and moral perceptions. Being raped is an act of brutal violence that nothing can justify.

The posting of that new information without any commentary to the contrary (in AK’s comment #115866) tended to imply that adultery is a mitigating condition in how AK perceives this woman’s innocence. Where she might be ‘guilty’ of violating arbitrary cultural standards, that fact is completely irrelevant to to the literal violation of her physical body that took place, and the idea that anyone ‘incites’ or otherwise causes their own rape is reprehensible Dark Ages thinking, which also sums up the Saudi government and increasingly, our own. That violence happens against women here as well is also irrelevant, or maybe it is relevant but due to the fact that it’s not institutionally supported here as in officially Muslim countries (it would be the case in officially Christian countries as well, and historically was). No one said that ignorant, apelike humans don’t exist in all cultures, but there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between a context where beating a woman will get you imprisoned for assault/domestic violence charges and one where the State orders the beating to enforce purely arbitrary notions of morality. Islam must have unusually weak-willed men as its founders since they seem so incapable of any semblance of self-control or discipline in the presence of female epidermis. 

This is why separating church and state is such a good idea. Or should I say “was” since we seem to be slipping?

I hear and have read comments about how irrelevant this is when so much else is happening in the world. Well, I think this story is very relevant, since it comes from a country that our government has such close ties to. Why no push to spread “freedom and democracy” to Saudi Arabia? Why no sanctions for “human rights abuses?” I think I know why. I also think the Saudi rulers are smart enough to recognize who brought them to where they are and how quickly things would change should they get too uppity with the U.S.. This also means that whatever does go on there, goes on with our implied ble$$ing. This is a handy piece of information for someone trying to get their bearings in world politics, seems to me. Even though it is about a few individuals who will all be forgotten soon enough, it’s like a fractal image that reveals the bigger picture it’s a part of.

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By The Village Idiot, November 26, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

Wow, Pam, if you turn down the volume I’ll read what you wrote.

Anyway, so she’s suddenly an “Adultresssssss?” (It’s sexier when you draw out the “s” sound). From what I hear, anyone will confess to anything after hanging out in a Saudi jail for awhile, which also makes it a great rendition destination this time of year. And like that changes anything? I wouldn’t care if she’d been married to 5 different men, having an affair with 10 others, and stealing all their money; that would be a matter of property and moral perceptions. Being raped is an act of brutal violence that nothing can justify. The posting of that new information without any commentary to the contrary (in comment #115866) tended to imply that adultery is a mitigating condition in how AK perceives this woman’s innocence. Where she might be ‘guilty’ of violating arbitrary cultural standards, that fact is completely irrelevant to to the literal violation of her physical body that took place, and the idea that anyone ‘incites’ or otherwise causes their own rape is reprehensible Dark Ages thinking, which also sums up the Saudi government and increasingly, our own.

This is why separating church and state is such a good idea. Or should I say “was” since we seem to be slipping?

I hear and have read comments about how irrelevant this is when so much else is happening in the world. Well, I think this story is very relevant, since it comes from a country that our government has such close ties to. Why no push to spread “freedom and democracy” to Saudi Arabia? Why no sanctions for “human rights abuses?” I think I know why. I also think the Saudi rulers are smart enough to recognize who brought them to where they are and how quickly things would change should they get too uppity with the U.S.. This also means that whatever does go on there, goes on with our implied ble$$ing. This is a handy piece of information for someone trying to get their bearings in world politics, seems to me. Even though it is about a few individuals who will all be forgotten soon enough, it’s like a fractal image that reveals the bigger picture it’s a part of.

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By A Khokar, November 26, 2007 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

#115762 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/25 at 12:38 pm
“Well, there you go, AK - Cleric says beating women is good (Memri TV, S.Arabia) - “Wife-beating is associated with the cultural status of women…... women in some cultures are not averse to beatings….. as a kind of control which she herself desires…”

The hate full discrimination of women is not only common in the East or in the land of Arab only.
Please see the fact sheet of USA. I have only two in hand; (bit old ones).

See it for your self:-Domestic Violence Fact Sheet

Excerpts:
“It is estimated that approximately 3 million incidents of domestic violence are reported each year in the United States. Tragically, domestic violence remains a pervasive threat to the fabric of America’s families and the well-being of America’s future.” 
Link: http://feinstein.senate.gov/04Speeches/domestic.htm 
And….
“Domestic violence during the last 20 years has been acknowledged as being a rapidly growing health concern in America’s communities, and as a result, communities around the country are working to develop strategies to stop the violence and provide more protective mechanisms for women and children who are battered”
Link: http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/Disorders/DomViolFacts.html

I would only say:-
Don’t stretch the ‘robe of your piety’ too far to impress others!
Look at the attires of yours; it’s all blackened and full of holes.(Translation)
———————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By hippy pam, November 26, 2007 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

THEIR COUNTRY-THEIR LAWS-IF THEY DO NOT LIKE IT-THEY NEED TO CHANGE THE LAWS/RELIGIONS…...In America we have MANY FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY[and ALL contradict each other on what is and is not CORRECT DOCTRINE- and ALL are ALLOWED TO EXIST BECAUSE ENOUGE OF THE FOLLOWERS INSIST ON HAVING THEIR SAY about what is considered to be “THE TRUE WAY”——WHO/WHAT GAVE AMERICA THE “RIGHT” TO JUDGE????LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE TO MAKE AND ENFORCE THE LAWS OF THEIR LANDS/RELIGIONS-I MAY THINK IT IS INHUMANE AND BARBARIC BUT….IT IS UP TO THEM TO LIVE WITH IT..IF THEY DO NOT LIKE IT-CHANGE IT…..

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By John Hanks, November 26, 2007 at 7:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I wouldn’t say that repressing women is stupid.  It has been giving men a free ride since we climbed out of the trees.  The problem is that women are more adaptable to modern society than men are, since men have testosterone issues.  One should never forget that male and female are basically crooks, suckers, and lazy cowards regardless.  It is folly to love mankind, especially Republicans.

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By Conservative Yankee, November 26, 2007 at 7:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

115713 by John Hanks on 11/25 at 8:57 am

“Most laws (that are actually enforced)protect the strong from the weak, not the other way around.”


NOW you are preaching to the Choir!  I agree!

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By A Khokar, November 26, 2007 at 3:51 am Link to this comment

Saudi Says Rape Victim Was Adulteress

115866 by A Khokar on 11/26 at 2:43 am

Correction in first paragraph: 

For…      “Associated Press” dated 28 November 2007.”
Please read “Associated Press” dated 26 November 2007.”

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By A Khokar, November 26, 2007 at 3:43 am Link to this comment

Saudi Says Rape Victim Was Adulteress

An excerpt from world news section of “Associated Press” dated 28 November 2007. Writer: ABDULLAH SHIHRI Nov 25, 6:39 PM EST
Excerpt:
“The charged girl is a married woman who confessed to having an affair with the man she was caught with.”
Known only as the “Girl from Qatif,” the 19-year-old rape victim said she was a newlywed who was meeting a high school friend in his car to retrieve a picture of herself from him when the attack occurred in the eastern city of Qatif. While in a car with him, two men got into the vehicle and drove them to a secluded area where others waited, and then she and her companion were both raped.
The ministry’s latest account of the incident alleges that the woman and her lover met in his car for a tryst “in a dark place where they stayed for a while.”
“Then they were spotted by the other defendants as the woman was in an indecent condition as she had tossed away her clothes, then the assault occurred on her and the man,” the statement added.
———————————————
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 25, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

#115668 by A Khokar on 11/25 at 12:55 am: “In western society; we may be free and very promiscuous….. Special religious police force also operates to preserve virtue…”

Well, there you go, AK - Cleric says beating women is good (Memri TV, S.Arabia) - “Wife-beating is associated with the cultural status of women…... women in some cultures are not averse to beatings….. as a kind of control which she herself desires… http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9567788895

I don’t understand what the link to LiveLeak.com you posted referred to or what you were trying to prove. There are some news media videos and news stories posted there (search Saudi Arabia) but not at the address you gave - or is there a specific page number - or something we are supposed to be looking for???

But, if you search something like “religious police”, you get something like this - Girls being sexually harrassed in downtown Cairo in full view of the police. Is this what they call a conservative religious society…?” http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=902_1173330749

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 25, 2007 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

#115674 by 1drees on 11/25 at 3:24 am: “...that is the LAW OF THE LAND and it is formulated from the local customs, local culture and other local facts and these concepts do reinforce it, it might be stupid to us non-Saudis but that’s the way it is there…”

That “people might have difficulty understanding” this so-called law designed to repress women as well as all unauthorized sexual activity is rather naive, 1drees.

And it is rather disingenuous of you to use the possibility of Bush/Cheney/Israel setting off WW3 (presumably with Russian approval) as an excuse for yet another sexist line about not having such news items on Truthdig.

It is not apparent whether you were addressing the topic or the last post (or both) by the perfidious A Khokar who now merely uses the term “very disgusting and awful” to convey his prejudices instead of raving about “Almighty God” when discussing sex or women, uhh.

He is South Asian, not a Saudi or even an Arab. Lets just get that clear. But “uncovered meat” was the term (in Arabic) used by an Egyptian migrant Islamic cleric not long back in Sydney, Australia. Sheikh Hilali lost his job over that as even Moslem women there were outraged by his ways of describing women. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6086374.stm

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks - Richard Kerbaj, October 26, 2006: “THE nation’s most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don’t wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned “meat” that attracts voracious animals ......

In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who “sway suggestively” and wore make-up and immodest dress ... “and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years”. “But the problem, but the problem all began with who?” he asked…....

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney’s southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years’ jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal….” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

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By John Hanks, November 25, 2007 at 9:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is no such thing as a “law of the land”.  Laws are written by small groups of elites to keep other small groups or the general population under control.  Let’s not give the power of force and fraud any moral authority as well.  In so-called religious states, this is what is really going on.  Most laws (that are actually enforced)protect the strong from the weak, not the other way around.

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By Conservative Yankee, November 25, 2007 at 6:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

115506 by John Hanks on 11/24 at 10:43 am

“(... Always look for the little man who isn’t there.)”


“Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there.
He wasn’t there again today
I wish that man would go away.

” Hugh Means (1875 – 1965)

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By 1drees, November 25, 2007 at 4:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well I’d just like to remind you all that although it might seem extremely odd or stupid to you but that is the LAW OF THE LAND and it is formulated from the local customs, local culture and other local facts and these concepts do reinforce it, it might be stupid to us non-Saudis but that’s the way it is there and most probably the locals of that place do know the norms and how to get around doing their business.
Just as you have certain laws in USA or Canada which others do not understand similarly maybe this is one law of SaudiArabia that people might have difficulty understanding.
This is kind of like the dark hole that the Priests   made by molesting church going kids and now they are selling off churches to pay off the Abused years later.
Each land and people have their weaknesses which are evidently shown in some stupid laws they formulate, i guess if there was an international lawyer in the audience maybe he could throw another couple of weird examples in for the sake of knowledge and entertainment.
Also in the state of affairs of the World that is about to go Nuclear towards WW3 and about to attack another NATION UNDER FALSE PRETENSE I HARDLY THINK THAT THIS WAS A NEWS WORTH PUBLISHING HERE but then Rags are rags!

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By A Khokar, November 25, 2007 at 1:55 am Link to this comment

115340 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/23 at 2:48 pm and 115452 by Paracelsus on 11/24 at 7:03 am

In western society; we may be free and very promiscuous but people are certainly not seen strolling in the streets with out clothing. After all; Janet Jackson was also taken to the task…when her accidental show of bosom in a stage play was; some what… seen as very disgusting and awful.

Any how under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man’s permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.

Special religious police force also operates to preserve virtue, combat vice and to ensure that people attend prayers in mosques and close their businesses during prayer times.

The religious police are entrusted with enforcing morals in markets and other public places. Practices such as the free association of men and women, indecent dress and effeminate behaviour are not tolerated at all. The religious police adopt a stricter approach to their duties because the local community is zealously religious. 
I think the role of the religious police should be confined to religious guidance and orientation, with mild powers of enforcement.

This girl called ”Qatif girl” was allegedly having an affair with a man who kept on black mailing her for last about one year and had some photographs of her in a compromising positions. Reports say that she was also beaten up by her brother for her conduct. The Girl was maintaining a forced relation with the man till they were caught in a market. More recent details of her ordeal can be found in following link:-

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=43d_1176961223

———————————————
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By cyrena, November 25, 2007 at 1:12 am Link to this comment

#115040 by thomas Billis on 11/21 at 6:40 pm

•  My mind cannot get around an evangelical Christian which our President purports to be has not come out strongly condemning this travesty.Where is the sainted Laura Bush?

Thomas Billis,
You know as well as I do that your prez isn’t likely to come out against ANY travesty, seeing as he spends all of his time committing them. As for the sainted Laura, SHE’S the one who told the Saudi women to start driving themselves around, instead of depending on those male drivers. Needless to say, SHE doesn’t drive HERSELF around, (which is just as well I suppose).

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By thomas Billis, November 24, 2007 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I just read what the Saudi Government released as justification for the sentence given that women.I am all for it and think we should have it here.But for both sexes that have affairs.The lasher in this country would have a full time job in Washington.Some of the freaks on the Republican side would probably think they have to pay for the lashing they would enjoy it so much.“Okay Larry get into to that wide stance.”

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By hippy pam, November 24, 2007 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment

Am I the only one that wishes HIS IMPERIAL HIGHASS EMPEROR BUSH*T would have adopted the “minding of own business” attitude WAY BEFORE THIS???

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By John Hanks, November 24, 2007 at 11:43 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think a lot of these outrages are put in the news because they appeal to our sense of moral superiority.  At least we aren’t that bad, etc.  Of course there is also the pornographic effect of vicarious sex, fear, and anger.  (All in the mind of course).

Meanwhile the boring fact that 25% of America goes hungry so the filth can stay rich keeps going on and on. 

We should always ask, why is the gatekeeper crook media telling me this?  What are they not telling me?
(I think most of you know this anyway.  Always look for the little man who isn’t there.)

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By Paracelsus, November 24, 2007 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

#115324 by A Khokar on 11/23 at 1:41 pm

“poor girl for her titillate indulgence in salacity which may be just natural and common at this age, of a 19 year old juvenile.”

1. I see nothing wrong in a young woman enjoying sex.

2. What evidence do you have that she was having sex with the young man, who gave her a ride? Though I ask this with (1.) firmly in mind.

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By John Hanks, November 24, 2007 at 7:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think most of our problems come from crooks, suckers, and lazy cowards.  All of these do the wrong thing for the “right” reasons.  Commingling is just a venue for the great human mistake.  Saudi Arabia is just a particular form of the general stupidity and viciousness.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, November 24, 2007 at 7:26 am Link to this comment

When you think about all the problems that arise out of the mingling of the sexes, overpopulation, poverty, crime, corporate greed, war mongering, terrorism, and global warming to mention only a few, maybe banning mingling is not such a bad idea. 
    Oh, I forgot, and there is less likelihood of the propagation of gems like George Bush, uhh.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 23, 2007 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

#115324 by A Khokar on 11/23 at 1:41 pm: “...a verdict of such a harsh punishment against that poor girl for her titillate indulgence in salacity…”

You seem to agree with the Saudis that she is “guilty” of being raped, A Khokar, despite your dutifully tut-tutting about the severity of the sentence. Such a sexist hypocrite!

Just as with the Anglican Christians, the British monarchy pretends to be the founders and protectors of the faith whilst usurping their “subjects’” rights as human beings as also do the Saudi regime.

But you really do need to find a more approprite term than “God Almighty” for this day and age, AK. Whatever it is that you are trying to translate from the Arabic, that term does not do justice in modern English terminology except to the most obtuse of Christian fundamentalists.

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By A Khokar, November 23, 2007 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

It is a very cruel and pathetic to give a verdict of such a harsh punishment against that poor girl for her titillate indulgence in salacity which may be just natural and common at this age, of a 19 year old juvenile.  It only reflects the savagery of the present oppressing regime of Saudi Arabia and the miserable life of poor people living there. This regime happens to be the custodian of Islamic shrines but that does not mean by any measures that the grandeur of shrines, their huge minarets and opulence seen all around build up so lavishly by this regime reflects the true Islamic scheme of the things. Neither Saudi present regime can claim that they constitute the seat of knowledge of Islamic teachings bestowed by God for the mankind; nor, it presents in any way the true picture of scheme of God Almighty that it should be found in Islam at its summit.
——————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By John Hanks, November 23, 2007 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

These raping events are common to every war.  That includes the whippings and banishings.

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By troublesum, November 23, 2007 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

I did not suppose that anyone would take seriously my joking that Bush and The Prince Who Charmed Him were romanticly involved anymore than the rest of the civilized world believes that “the mingling of the sexes” ought to be punished by rape and torture.

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By troublesum, November 23, 2007 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

I didn’t suppose that anyone would take seriously my joking that Bush and the Prince who Charmed Him were romanticly involved anymore than I take seriously the notion of the Saudi government that the “mingling of the sexes” demands punishment by rape and torture.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 23, 2007 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

#115277 by oregoncharles on 11/23 at 9:39 am: “Just to clarify that picture of Bush holding hands with the Saudi prince: In Arabia, holding hands signifies friendship, not romance. ........On the other hand, he is indicating an INTIMATE friendship, precisely the political point we need to take away.  That “friendship” with the Saudis is dictating US policy….”

Thanks for pointing that out, ‘oregoncharles’. I was trying to say something about Bush without admitting to the cultural custom of men holding hands. But how strange is Bush anyway (with Blair in “the gay bar” video)???

So there it is. The main game has shifted from Israel to S.Arabia since Israel was caught selling US military secrets to China a couple of years ago.

In the meantime, S.Arabia has been propping up Blair’s Britain with military-industrial complex employment funded by their huge purchases of armaments and especially fighter aircraft (search BAE).

The balance of power has been shifting in the M.East for some time - and it has not only to do with Iran or Turkey. It is now more oil-based than it was in the past with Israel and fundamentalist Christian ideologies in the USA.

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By LibertyWatch, November 23, 2007 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

Bush will not bite the hand that owns him and his band of outlaws. Oil rules humanity and humanity does not exist while oil rules the world.

The Saudi people are sick and despotic if they believe that these two young adults should be whipped and jailed! Any bets they won’t survive their torturers? We should abandon all ties with the house of Saud and all others that live in medieval kingdoms of stupid leadership and backward laws that punish the victims of hateful abusive crimes.

No wonder Bush feels he has the right to destroy America and everything our Constitution once stood for. His hero and money lenders are locked in time without a thought for contemporary freedoms of the rights of individual.

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By oregoncharles, November 23, 2007 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

Just to clarify that picture of Bush holding hands with the Saudi prince:

In Arabia, holding hands signifies friendship, not romance.  So Bush is being multicultural there (big surprise - who knew he was that sophisticated?).  On the other hand, he is indicating an INTIMATE friendship, precisely the political point we need to take away.  That “friendship” with the Saudis is dictating US policy.

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By John Hanks, November 22, 2007 at 9:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Divide and control.  Keeping women and men apart is just another example of the same old con.  Raping and whipping is just as effective a “social example” as a firing squad.

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By rodney, November 22, 2007 at 11:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bush has no credibility on human rights because he has violated so many of them. There is nothing he can say. Neither can Condi Rice. Gauntanimo Bay,secret prisons,                    Abu Graib,torture,taking away habeas corpus. At least the muslin woman got a trial and knows her release date from prison. Can’t say that about any of the Bush detainees who are being held on suspicion and not charged or tried for anything. Seems to me as unfairly as the saudi woman was treated,it was much better than the German the CIA kidnapped.held for months in secret prisons and tortured,and released only when we discovered we had the wrong guy. He can’t sue because of so called national security. So it’s hard for the pot to call the kettle black.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 22, 2007 at 10:46 am Link to this comment

Better just search/Google this for the pic - “bush gay saudi prince”

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 22, 2007 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

#115150 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/22 at 9:18 am: “...seems to be an agenda about criticizing IRAN but not criticizing S.Arabia…”

Oh, I get it - in Iran, gays are (supposedly) strung up - but its OK for Bush to be openly “gay” with a Saudi prince, uhh, ha ha!

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 22, 2007 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

#115148 by Marshall K on 11/22 at 9:10 am: “
W is a sadist…. By the way, HAPPY THANKSGIVING, Y’ALL!”

Just repeating #115103 by troublesum’s link - of Bush and his prince - and what do we get?

Action Denied: Blacklisted Item Found
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/21/

- so just add <saudi-rape-victim> to the URL, uhh! There seems to be an agenda about criticizing IRAN but not criticizing S.Arabia!!!

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By Marshall K, November 22, 2007 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

W is a sadist who has had blood on his hands since he was governor of Texas.  I don’t think he will criticize his torture buddies in Saudi Arabia.
As long as we keep driving and guzzling oil, we are aiding and abetting these savages.  We must take personal responsibility to reduce our oil consumption, walk more, take public transport, ride bikes, buy a smaller vehicle, etc.
We can also consume less in general.
By the way, HAPPY THANKSGIVING, Y’ALL!

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By don knutsen, November 22, 2007 at 9:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In Bizzaro land, we have a president who advocates torture of anyone he has labeled an ” Evil-Doer”, in Bizzaro land we imprison hundreds in a far away country from their own on the say so of tribesman in Afghanistan who were payed by the head to deliver “evil doers” to our military having done nothing but be within site of these newly embraced capitalists, in bizzaro land we back dictators as long as they go along with our buisness wishes and walk holding hands with despots who feel its right to punish a young women who is gang raped because they are friends of the bush family and because they have oil.The same despots who were pressured to remove our military from their sands making the invasion of Iraq a neccesity in the eyes of our neo-con led conspiracy called an administration. The bush dynasty romance with the Saudi royalty has been at the heart of our fiasco in Iraq, and is at the heart also of this administration not funding any renewable energy source if it cuts into the profits of the oil industry. This administration is so totally devoid of any morality that they fail to see the hypocracy in their actions each and every day.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 22, 2007 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

#115102 by troublesum on 11/22 at 3:54 am: “...a photo of Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia…..  100 lashes for acting gay in public again.  Now if this happened to a woman in Iran….”

No, they don’t do such things to women in Eye-Ran. So what was the adminisitration “astonished” about???

Double it to 200 lashes - and six months in a renditioning jail in Egypt, troublesum, uhh!!!

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By Conservative Yankee, November 22, 2007 at 7:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As reprehensible as I find this action (personally) our country has NO moral standing to criticize the policies, regarding internal affairs, of another sovereign nation.

I didn’t hear one word about what the world thought about Abner Louima, Charlie Howard, James Byrd,Alan Berg, and Matthew Shepard. This country still has KKK cells, a “White power” movement, and a large group of folks who believe it is OK to bump off a Gay now and them.

How is the world to take seriously a criticism of a punishment which leaves the woman alive by a government who assisted the genocide in East Timur?

One of the reasons we (as a nation) need to get back on a moral footing is to insure that there is a place, of moral fortitude where the oppressed can come where their voice will be heard.

We are surely not that now!

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By jatihoon, November 22, 2007 at 6:19 am Link to this comment

What do you expect from camel drivers, there head is buried in sand covered by oil. Only sound you hear ALLAH ALLAH and ALLAH or MULLHA MULLHA and MULLHA

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By troublesum, November 22, 2007 at 5:06 am Link to this comment

Actually, the photo of Bush and his prince is at thinkprogress.org/2007/11/21/saudi-rape-victim/

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By troublesum, November 22, 2007 at 4:54 am Link to this comment

The Wonkette has a photo of Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia on her website’s post on this issue.  100 lashes for acting gay in public again.  Now if this happened to a woman in Iran it would be used as another excuse to attack.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 21, 2007 at 11:55 pm Link to this comment

Hillary Clinton has spoken out against the Saudi princes just as the Philippines’ Gloria Arroyo has also spoken out against the generals in Burma this week.

It seems that only women in authority are standing up for the rights of oppressed women in other countries these days. That’s really weak, uhh!

So much kow-towing to oil and trade interests. Singapore’s president Lee was cringing like a dog at the recent ASEAN meeting and so apologetic about Burma’s military. No wonder since they (and the Saudi king) can walk openly in Singapore.

Strange that Bush is also kow-towing to the Saudis then. They certainly could crack the whip over the former British prime minister Tony Blair’s head when their parliament said anything about corrupt arms deals (BAE). Maybe there is more to shut up about with the USA too?!?!

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 21, 2007 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment

#115032 by Don Stivers on 11/21 at 5:34 pm: “...And where did the suicide pilots of 9-11 come from?  .....And does our Congress care to do anything? .....Our government lashes out at the President of Iran…”

Strange that the USA “decided” to bomb and to invade Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, isn’t it? This latest protective statement by Bush adds to the complicity…...!!!

Bush’s friends at Chevron don’t want him to say too much about Burma, either!

“Is this the birth pangs of women’s freedoms in Saudi Arabia?” I hope so - but sadly they are as blinded by their religion as the men - and thus fail to see clearly what is happening to them!?!?

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By THE YOUNG ARE HERE, November 21, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

The more I here about this story the sicker I get.  And you are all right Bush could give 2 shits there no money in it for him or his friends…..

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By Novista, November 21, 2007 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

I suppose Osama bin Forgotten passed the word that Bush should not muck about in more cultural norms he doesn’t understand.

Not that I support Wahabiism, but I did live in Saudi Arabia in 1969-70. It was certainly better then. King Faisal was liberal and kept the fundamentalists in their box. Still, we all knew the official law of the land and the possibility we could be caught up in it for transgressions ...

Funny how the U.S. has congresscritters that leap up in high dudgeon and yet various administrations did support tyrants, dictators, and the most extreme version of Islam is part and parcel of a country called ‘friendly’.

Maybe it is. If Ahmadinejad and Chavez had ruled the OPEC meeting, the US dollar would already be burnt toast.

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By Lee, November 21, 2007 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

I just wanted to share this tribute to women.

http://glumbert.com/wii/view.php?name=womenfilm

Happy Thanksgiving ...

Lee

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By thomas Billis, November 21, 2007 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My mind cannot get around an evangelical Christian which our President purports to be has not come out strongly condemning this travesty.Where is the sainted Laura Bush?I cannot imagine how many lashes his two daughters would get for drinking moonshine in Saudi Arabia.I guess if you hand hold at the ranch in Crawford with the dictator of Saudi Arabia they are exempt from the moron’s self righteous campaigns.

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By Margaret from Portland, Or., November 21, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Of course Bush will not comment about any Dictator government because secretaly or not so this president would like to keep the Republicians in office and the way to do that is the elections, if people do not come out in mass and I mean in mass there will be a tackover of the elections in 08, they did it in Fla, they did it in Ohio, they did it in New Mexico this government is not spreading democracy especially in the voting area because some people do not vote Republician and those are the ones that wait in line in the rain.  Usually the cities were there is a lot of population the voting booths are in short supply, the polls open late, close early, etc.  In the rurual areas the people there do not wait in the rain, voting takes minutes not hours.

So consider Bush not for democracy or even telling the truth, if he does tell the truth it is very distorted I do not believe what comes out of his mouth.

An example is when he was debating with Kerry he made the statement he owns no forest land, well that was not exactly a lie he kind of gushed “me own forest land”, well it comes under mineral rights, so that was a distortion, he just put this unbelieable look on his face and repeats the question, I wonder what life would have been if Gore or Kerry were elected would the DOJ have fired people that were working on sensative cases?

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By RAE, November 21, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

It’s difficult to imagine the twisted minds… the MILLIONS of twisted minds… that accept that the “mingling” of the sexes can or should be “illegal.”

There’s something so profoundly perverted about such an attitude that it makes it impossible for me to get past it to look for the “good” in that society.

Ridiculous.

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By Don Stivers, November 21, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

And where did the suicide pilots of 9-11 come from?  Has our State Department said anything officially?  Is this the birth pangs of women’s freedoms in Saudi Arabia?

And does our Congress care to do anything?

Our government lashes out at the President of Iran about his opinions about the Holocaust but we don’t recognize the genocide in Turkey at the beginning of the 20th Century.  Any difference?  People were slaughtered in both cases.  And cruelly at that.

Victims rights..Ha!

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By Stanley, November 21, 2007 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Think about what our decider-in-chief’s reaction would be were we not beholden to Saudi Arabia for oil.  Our addiction to oil corrupts everything we do, and empowers such unsavory folks as Putin, Chavez and the Saudi princes. 
We must break this dependency - for our own sake and for the sake of the woe begone folks in those countries.
Don’t believe Bush when he speaks of the desire of the United States to help all people achieve freedom.  He doen’t mean it.

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By P. T., November 21, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

George “Guantanamo” Bush loves to lecture Iran on human rights, not Saudi Arabia.

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