“And neither you nor anyone else has so far gotten to the point of my previous comments about class differences being exacerbated.”

You just don’t like or understand the answer.  And you are a moron, but not for your lack of understanding of economics. You are a moron for arguing about a subject you know nothing about.  It would be like me getting into an argument about quantum mechanics.

#114334 by P. T. on 11/18 at 1:14 pm: “You can continue being a moron, though you would not be able to define it….”

Your computer, Internet, etc. won’t save you. You still don’t seem to understand that there is actually an issue we are blogging about, though.

#114207 by P. T.: “The decline in the dollar is a good thing for most Americans because it means more jobs at better wages.  It is a bad thing for rich Americans who hold financial assets because it means an increase in inflation….”

You do not seem to understand that “better wages” for US workers are not a likely outcome of a falling US$. Neither do you seem to understand that inflation will not necessarily harm rich Americans.

And neither you nor anyone else has so far gotten to the point of my previous comments about class differences being exacerbated…...... though, at least, we now understand that you would not be able to define an answer never mind the question, uhh.

“Super! Now you can go back to being what you really are - as you seem well able to define it….....”

You can continue being a moron, though you would not be able to define it.

#114331 by P. T. on 11/18 at 12:55 pm: “You just proved my point, moron….”

Super! Now you can go back to being what you really are - as you seem well able to define it….....

“It’s just a matter of time before DISASTER BIG TIME blows the economy out of the water. Let’s see where your iPods, Blackberrys, designer jeans and the thousands of other unnecessary excesses of urban living gets you then. Try eating, drinking and breathing that crap!”

Near where I live, the people in rural areas just got through begging the urban fire departments to come save the rural houses.  Your computer, Internet, etc. won’t save you.

“Well, you’ve certainly earned it, you twit (er, uhh, PT…)!”

You just proved my point, moron.

““We’ve moved to self-sustaining rural homes with gardens, fresh air and water, and peace.”

We know.  You’re always all over the highways commuting. “

Sorry to dispute your assumptions, P.T., but we (rural types) plan our lives to minimize travel. We shop twice a month in the nearest town (80 miles each round trip) and pick up milk and mail once a week in our nearest village (20 miles round trip) for a total “commute” of about 240 miles PER MONTH. I’ll compare our “commute” with almost any in urban centers. And ours is highway driving - far less polluting than negotiating the stop-and-go urban “parking lots.”

As it see it, those in large urban centers will be in BIG TROUBLE when ANYTHING interrupts the flow of goods and services for very long. Just look at the chaos caused by Katrina and the panic produced whenever the power goes out for more than a day or two anywhere else. Just imagine what it’s going to be like in big cities when outages and shortages go for weeks or months… or permanently!

There’s just NO WAY this planet can continue to support the inequity of our unbalanced, unethical, and wasteful ways. It’s just a matter of time before DISASTER BIG TIME blows the economy out of the water. Let’s see where your iPods, Blackberrys,  designer jeans and the thousands of other unnecessary excesses of urban living gets you then. Try eating, drinking and breathing that crap!

#114303 by P. T. on 11/18 at 9:09 am: “I guess I can call you a moron if you can call me a twit….”

Well, you’ve certainly earned it, you twit (er, uhh, PT…)!

I guess I can call you a moron if you can call me a twit.  One thing I’ve learned about the Internet:  Just respond in kind.  Being polite won’t work.

#114260 by P. T. on 11/18 at 1:18 am: “Moron, rich Americans have far more in domestic assets than poor Americans…”

Would you kindly explain how I earned your “moron” epithet, PT???

By the way, I forgot to mention that U.S. exports of goods rose by a 23 percent annual rate in the third quarter of this year.  The effects of the lower dollar on exports seem to be taking place already.

“What they have both failed to see is that imports INTO the USA will be immediately more expensive.”

That’s the idea.  That’s how imbalances are corrected, along with less expensive exports (which means more jobs at better wages).

“As ‘rich Americans’ tend to hold a larger proportion of their assets overseas, it will affect them less and thus the class divisions will become accentuated as a larger gap appears between rich and poor.”

Moron, rich Americans have far more in domestic assets than poor Americans, and the rich have far more in domestic assets than foreign assets.  The poor have nothing to speak of in assets:  Most are renters and making payments on a car (if they even have one).  They don’t have financial assets.  In fact some of them even have negative net worths.

#114190 by crowhurst on 11/17 at 12:41 pm: “...opinions are like assholes - everyone has one…”

Certainly, asshole - I mean, er, uhh, crowhurst. And twits like PT and Frank can only see one side of their arguments on economics. So much for the blindness of denial and refusal.

What they have both failed to see is that imports INTO the USA will be immediately more expensive. As most manufactured essentials now come from overseas, the impact will be far-reaching and unavoidable.

As “rich Americans” tend to hold a larger proportion of their assets overseas, it will affect them less and thus the class divisions will become accentuated as a larger gap appears between rich and poor.

Conversely, countries like China will be affected somewhat less because they are exporting manufactured essentials and not mainly luxury produxcts like the USA or even the EU. Everyone has to still buy from them even if it hurts.

China and India are real growth economies and can last through the USA’s recession on the strength of their own domestic growth. Additionally, they are still building new industries like aviation and will eventually not require anything from the USA - unless it is cheaper than they can make it for, of course!

So, to paraphrase Frank but in the opposite, “in the short term it’s good for almost everybody else but its bad for the US. In the long term it’s good for the US and everybody if the USA can survive”. That is, manufacturing will slowly return to the USA and employment will increase.

But the cost of oil and commodities will hurt everybody until wars come to an end. As witht he cold war USSR, the USA will have to significantly reduce its military expenditure and the size of its standing army. There will be more unemployment as a result in the short to medium term.

As RAE said, “It must have occurred to all sentient beings that continuous GROWTH is not sustainable….”. The USA has stuck it to other countries around the world for too long. Now the shoe is on the other foot…... but “other western-type nations that ape our lifestyle and values” are going to get exactly what they deserve, too!!!

The decline in the dollar is a good thing for most Americans because it means more jobs at better wages.  It is a bad thing for rich Americans who hold financial assets because it means an increase in inflation.

Anyway, the decline in the dollar is inevitable because of the trade deficits year after year.  They are not sustainable indefinately.  The sooner the correction the better.  The only other way of correcting the imbalance is with a severe recession that decreases imports.  That would be a bad thing.  It is one of the reasons the gold standard was abandoned.

Europe, China, and Japan have more to lose from a weak US dollar than the US. It is bad for them both in the short term and bad for them in the long term. A weaker dollar makes it more difficult for U.S. consumers to afford products imported from those regions, which rely heavily on exports as engines of economic growth. A weak US dollar in the long run could economically damage it’s trade partners to the point that they are no longer able to afford US imports, which will come back to bite us.

For Americans, the short-term advantages to a weak US dollar is a boost in US exports and creation of manufacturing jobs in the US.  As U.S.-made goods and services become cheaper compared to those of rivals in other countries, demand will increase. That will boost domestic production of machine tools, cars, even the troubled textile industry. It may reduces the trade deficit significantly.  But reviving US exports and manufacturing at the expense of our trade partners economies is not sustainable in the long term. So, in the short term it’s good for the US. In the long term it’s bad for everybody.

opinions are like assholes - everyone has one

Rae If it gets as bad as you say the last of the gasoline, power, potable water, and edible food will be co-opted by marauding warlord/generals and remnant factions of their armies. They will use these in turn to co-opt all the self-sustaining rural homes with gardens, fresh air and water.

Perhaps places like Iceland, New Zealand and hopefully Vancouver Island will emerge as the next superpowers in a more distant future.

With any luck they’ll be a little wiser with the world they inherit. It probably goes without saying they’ll have to be a little more frugal. In the long run it’ll probably be a good be a thing that there’s less resources around like oil. It’ll make it that much harder for future super-powers and empire building to occur.

“We’ve moved to self-sustaining rural homes with gardens, fresh air and water, and peace.”

We know.  You’re always all over the highways commuting.

It must have occurred to all sentient beings that continuous GROWTH is not sustainable.

The US economy is BASED on a philosophy of grow, grow, grow. Everything must become bigger, faster, cheaper. ROI must be substantial (eg >8%) year upon year upon year.

Only greed-driven, myopic imbeciles believe this can go on forever. The rest of us understand that there’s a GREAT ECONOMIC CRASH coming. We’ll be lucky if the US dollar is worth ONE CENT when the dust clears.

The wise amongst us are doing everything we can to reduce our dependency on “the capitalist system” as the greedy bastards have developed it. We’ve moved to self-sustaining rural homes with gardens, fresh air and water, and peace. We live as humans are supposed to. When the crash comes we’ll suffer too… but nothing like the millions of rat-like “consumers” crammed into tiny, sky-high boxes in our cities are going to suffer.

The big, fat US population (and other western-type nations that ape our lifestyle and values) are going to get exactly what they deserve for building castles in the air… and then moving in! Should be fun watching them trying to function without gasoline, power and potable water, let alone edible food.

There is an old Chinese story about a village which was in fear of prowling tigers. One day, a wandering writer (scribe/calligrapher) appeared and, on hearing of the villagers’ plight, he posted signs around the village saying “Tigers not wanted!”

After that, the village was at peace. Today the prowling hegemonic power is that of the USA - a ferocious rogue state. The signs now read “US$$ not wanted”, uhh! Since the 1970’s, America has had its chance to solve these problems…......

RE: #114054 by cyrena on 11/16

Great post.

It seems this is just another of the “Oil Barons” or maybe “the Neocons” (hard to tell) way of undermining the sovereignty of the United States.  I do sense that that is their ULTIMATE goal.  You know, the constitution is so…well…Restricting.

Thankfully there are those willing to defend it. (the Constitution)

Have a good weekend….enjoy.

personally,i have spent the past 30+ years investing everything i could afford in gold and silver. i might still be able to afford to eat after bush has finished destroying our economy.

Republicrats, behold the final results of your bipartisan dismantling of the US economy!

What an individual family cannot do, so can the US economy not do.

You can’t spend yourself rich.

You can’t keep piling up debt forever. Eventually, you have to pay—or declare bankruptcy.

The Indians are the first to dump the dollar. Others will follow, inevitably. Why hold dollars that are continually declining in value?

The response of the Republicrats? They will demonize those evil foreigners for “destroying” the dollar—something the republicrats did over the past fifty years!

The Republicrat solution to the crisis? Declare another war, of course!

When will you guys ever wake up?

The U.S. exports a lot of things but not enough of them.  Medical equipment is a big and very lucrative U.S. export.  Also, a falling dollar means fewer imports as import prices rise.  The adjustment is inevitable, due to the trade deficit.  It will mean lower living standards and higher inflation.  But it will also mean more jobs and economic growth.

What currency oil is sold in doesn’t much matter.  The major currencies are readily convertible.

#114044 by P. T.

...“Actually, the dollar needs to fall further to reduce the trade deficit.  It is unsustainable.  That will help make U.S. exports more competitive.”...

P.T.

I’m curious here, about WHAT U.S. EXPORTS you might have in mind, that could become more ‘competitive’.

What exactly does the U.S. actually ‘export’ any more? I honestly can’t think of much other than weapons. And, we’re way ahead of the competition on that, since we are the world’s number one, by far, exporter of weapons systems large and small.

Other than that though, I can’t think of any other exports where we are even still in competition.

Meantime, India is only one of many joining the race to reject the dollar. Nobody else has much to do with it these days either.

This was the fear a decade or more ago, regarding Saddam. He had threatened to begin trading/selling their oil in the Euro, rather than the dollar. Well, we know what would have happened there. But, it appears to have only delayed the crash. Now, even Iran is demanding payment for the oil it sells to Japan, in YEN.

So, it would appear that the board game, (World Domination) that so fascinated george back in his days at Yale, played with the monopoly money, and the ever changing ‘rules’ when he wasn’t winning, has finally come to a real ending, and it ain’t looking too good for us over here. (at least not if the only money we have is in US currency.)

Yes, it would be nice to call customer service or tech support and actually be able to understand whoever answers the phone.
India is likely to be the first among many countries that will snub the weakening dollar, thanks to Shrubs’ clueless policies of printing money that loses its value before the ink is dry.
‘Course, I am sure that he and his cabal have their money safely out of the country, leaving the rest of us to suffer for his follies.

It is not that the dollar has fallen too low.  India could adjust the U.S. currency prices that it charges, to fix that.  The concern for India is that the dollar will fall still further making it difficult to know in advance what prices to charge in dollars.

Actually, the dollar needs to fall further to reduce the trade deficit.  It is unsustainable.  That will help make U.S. exports more competitive.

I guess our only recourse is to start bringing those jobs we offshored to India back to the U.S.