• #113470 by Conservative Yankee on 11/14 at 5:18 am
Does anyone believe that people really read a post so long it comes in five segments?
What incredible arrogance!

Thanks CY. I appreciate being so ‘incredible’ in your eyes, even though it doesn’t seem the least bit out of the ordinary to me. But then, I guess ‘arrogance’ is like everything else; in the eyes of the beholder.

It’s odd though, since it seems I remember that it was YOU who suggested that I ‘write a book’. So, I post what is the equivalent of about 3 and ½ ‘book pages’ and you call it incredible arrogance, even though there sure wasn’t anybody forcing you to read even a word of it. Sounds kind of fickle to me. Can’t you make up your mind?

So, which one of the kids pissed in your cherrios today? Or was it yesterday? Or, since they’re all the same for you, I guess it doesn’t matter. You know the old bland and phony cliché about the glass being half-empty of half-full? Well, not to worry..it will never apply to your mentality. The bottom of your glass is totally busted out!!

Maybe you could switch cereals, and stay away from reading anything written by arrogant posters on public forums. You might actually learn something, (or at least filter some new information) and that would REALLY jack things up for you.

I Just remembered something. A few years ago I watched a documentary on the discovery channel about what goes on behind the scenes of cruise ships. One part showed the ship being fueled in port. The ship’s engineer who was overseeing this said a cruise ship’s fuel millage was about 6 inches per gallon. I don’t know how fuel use of a cruise ship compared to a cargo ship but lets use the above data of 6 inches/gallon for the following discussion. If the spill was 58,000 gallons that would take the ship less that 6 miles. News reports said the ship was outbound to S. Korea.  The environmentalist may hate to here this but SF should thank their lucky stars the spill was not worse than it was.

Gomer and all…Part 1

I realize this is an internet web site that covers politics. So, it’s perfectly understandable that political issues will arise, even if we’re looking at an article such as the current disaster in the San Francisco Bay, which is a disaster for…well, just about everybody that thinks in terms of a larger world view. And…I do.

Consequently, the stuff on Gray Davis, and the constant inference to liberal left or me (or anyone) being challenged, just doesn’t have a whole lot (or anything) to do with the price of tea in China, though it may have something to do with all of that shit spilled into the Bay. It is going to affect anything or anyone that is in anyway connected to the business conducted on the Bay, in/out of the Bay. That would include people that buy/use gas or other petroleum products, not to mention those who depend on it as a form of transportation, (to get all of the stuff from China to stock Wal-Mart) not to mention those who may rely on the surrounding Oceans and other bodies of water for food or their livelihoods. The wildlife of course is not just there for people to look at and enjoy. Wildlife actually serves as an integral part of the overall landscape, even if we don’t all know exactly how that fits in. So, overall, the disaster in the SF Bay isn’t a political issue – or, at least it shouldn’t be. The fact that it now contains 58,000 of who knows what, mixed with a bunch of crude oil, is a problem.

The ‘discussion’ on the language capabilities of the crew/captain began when you and Margaret Curry decided that the accident “probably had something to do with” all of these foreigners coming into our bay who probably didn’t speak English, and didn’t know ‘our’ waters, etc. Or, to further paraphrase her, “maybe it was the instruments, because…after all, they are not ‘human’.

Now, if you look back at that, I think you’ll realize that it was a stupid statement. Of course the instruments aren’t human, but HUMANS make the instruments, and humans interpret them. And, 99% of accidents of this nature, are caused by…HUMANS. 9 times out of 10, (or maybe more) it’s because HUMANS failed to use good judgment, OR, MADE INCORRECT –ASSUMPTIONS-. It is something that appears to be severely lacking in some people…more and more I’ve noticed in the past couple of decades.

My own point about the language, is that while it is not ‘required’ to operate any vessel on the land or sea, at least if one is a professional, most people operating these vessels DO in fact speak English. Louise pointed this out as well, if for no other reason than the fact that they are generally conducting business of some nature, WITH Americans, who don’t speak anything else!! In my own career, as well as my own travels over the past 4 decades, I’ve discovered this. Many people from nations and countries OTHER than America, generally speak two or more languages, one of them of course being English. This is not always the case of course. But, most ‘foreigners’ doing business with the US, can in fact speak their own native tongues, as well as English. And, it stands to reason that there WOULD BE ‘foreign ships’ as Margaret calls them, operating in any port, anywhere on the face of the globe. For the purposes of conversation on this particular board, ‘foreign’ seems to mean –at least to you and the Margarets of the world- any ship or vessel that is not own and operated by Americans. Now when the same ship and or crew is anywhere else, (say for instance China or points in-between) it’s not ‘foreign’. Are you with me so far?

TBC

Part 2 of 5

I also don’t believe it to have anything to do with the fact that as of now, the accident in the Bay has already been determined to be a result of conducting an operation in dense fog, in the harbor, with the tanker colliding with the Bay Bridge. That would be, in my estimation, a human error, and it would be an error whether the crew spoke English or not. It would be an error even if all of the instruments were inoperative, since the bridge has been there a long time, and fog doesn’t need a language. It pretty much speaks for itself, as long as the persons operating the vessel are not blind. And so far, I still can’t connect “liberal-left” to that, or “radical conservative right” for that matter.

As for me thinking that I know everything, or everybody should accept what I say or think…nope. There again, that would be YOUR assumption, (incorrect) and not mine. I’m educated to a certain degree, (in life experience and via multiple forms of media, superb teachers, and ‘hands on’ training/apprenticeships) and since the truly educated never graduate, I hope to continue my ‘education’ for at least another few decades. If I can hold out even longer, all the better. (well, maybe – that’s to be determined by forces beyond my control). Consequently, anything that I post to this blog, would be a combination of all of that, mixed and sorted with basics like logic and common sense, frequently resulting in an opinion. Opinions and facts of course are not the same. We use the facts, (with a measure of common sense and logic) to come up with the opinion. Most people can tell the difference. I didn’t create logic or common sense. I use the former to the extent that I can, to connect things together in a useful manner. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Common sense was simply something that I’ve always been ‘encouraged’ to use, (sometimes rather forcefully I must admit) by those who were older and wiser than I. (at least at the time – though certainly age is not always connected to wisdom).

That said, if there’s something I want to know, because it’s useful information for me or anyone else, I’ll ask someone who does. If I know something that would be useful information for somebody/anybody else, I’ll offer it. That has been my interpretation of the usefulness of this and any other internet publication that allows for public commentary. Clearly, and at the end of the day, it’s generally no skin off my own nose, if any one or all reject whatever it is that I might be offering, in the form of fact or opinion. I’d be very bored, and find something else to do with my time, if everyone on this board ‘agreed’ with my OPINIONS. I would learn/gain nothing from that, and neither would anyone else. The ‘purpose’ (for all) is simply to be aware of the FACTS, as well as the opinions of others, and hopefully to utilize both to the expansion of our own, individually and collectively. And yes, we should ALL recognize the difference.

TBC

Part 3
Example…we’re mostly all ‘aware’ of the fact that there is a solar system in the universe that we know. Let’s take the Sun. Now, we can both agree that the sun does indeed exist. I might suggest that the sun is yellow, and you might think that it’s green. Somebody else might suggest that it doesn’t have any color, and it’s just ‘light’. Or, that it’s just colorless ‘energy’. At the end of the day, I suspect that it doesn’t much matter what color it is, since neither of us can do anything about that, and there’s probably not much harm in you believing that it’s green, or in me believing that it’s yellow. Who cares? I probably wouldn’t argue that point with you, because it is what it is in that regard. (and probably doesn’t have any ‘color’ at all).

The ‘light’ and ‘energy’ descriptions though, have more substance, since both are useful to most living things. So, we could have endless discussions on that, like how to utilize the light and energy that it produces. And, we’ll come up with all sorts of things. But, at the end of the day, (wherever on the globe one might be located) the sun is still the sun, and the water is still the water, and the air is still the air. Those are facts, and the rest is gonna be opinion….some more useful than others. You (or anyone else) should feel free to challenge me on any of that ‘opinion’, just as I will, and just as I encourage others to do. But, we still aren’t gonna argue about the sun, for the same reasons that I’ve already stated. It is what it is, and it does what it does, and practically speaking, none of us can change that. We can certainly adapt its properties for use in our own lives, but that doesn’t change IT.

As for my personal and professional background, since you’re so interested. I’m a career public servant, with most of that career devoted to the commercial transportation industry. My ‘specialty’ is in aviation transportation, but transportation is transportation. In short, it’s getting from point A to points B and beyond. I utilize all forms of modern and ancient transportation. I don’t own an SUV, (or any other automobile). I have owned small to med-sized cars in the past, and I may one day buy another. Then again, maybe not. But, I’ve been without one for several years now, since I can’t afford to operate them on my quasi-retired income. So, I’m sorry to burst your bubble on THAT assumption. No SUV’s and no boats, and I don’t even live in the SF Bay area. (though I have). For my own transportation needs, I generally walk, or take whatever non-motorized vehicle might be lying around here; A bike, a scooter, a skateboard, (though that makes the kids sort of nervous) or I take the bus or an airplane if I have to go further than I want to walk or cycle. Occasionally I even rent a car. I just don’t ‘own’ any of that stuff.

I also don’t belong to an ‘established’ political persuasion. None of the old ‘labels’ suit me…liberal, conservative, blah blah. Those things have taken on new and different meanings, or maybe they’ve always meant different things to different people. So, if you need to ‘peg’ me, it would be better to ‘peg’ me as an independent progressive. I’m highly enamored with the idea of a constitutional democracy, and while I would never suggest that our own has been 100% perfect, I do believe it to be one of the best systems that I am aware of, (and I’ve studied several). So, you could call me a ‘constitutionalist’ if you just need to call me something.
TBC

Part 4 of 5 for Gomerspile

I’m also an advocate for ALL human rights, so that means that I’m actually serious about that part of the Pledge, which claims a belief in liberty and justice for – ALL. (I’m also inclined to believe that I’m part of a dwindling crowd on that issue). I’m equally committed to the rights of individuals, as long as the individual isn’t claiming the ‘right’ to do harm to another. For those individuals, I think they should be locked away in a place where they can only do the harm to themselves, if in fact that’s the right they’ve chosen to exercise.

So, there you have it Gomerspile. I know this doesn’t cover everything fully, but hopefully you get a general picture. I really am far more inclined to lean in the direction of logic rather than emotion, though I certainly respect the emotional part as well. I just go a little nuts when folks make assumptions that aren’t based on any verifiable truths. And, that’s pretty much how this all kicked off, with you assuming that everyone here, (or at least I) was anti-military, (not true at all, since the majority of my family has served in the military at some point in time and over generations) or that I’m liberal left, and can’t tell the difference between a racist/xenophobic type, and one who has legitimate concerns about whether or not any person or group of people is qualified to perform whatever job it is that they happen to be performing.

On the language thing: The only language I speak or write fluently is English. I consider this a failing of sorts, because I was born, raised and educated in California, and I’ve lived a considerable of years in Texas and other places that are ‘border states’ and have large Hispanic populations. (that have been here far longer than I have). So, it would have been to my advantage to learn that language, but I basically only know enough to get by, and to converse at the most rudimentary level. I do better with French, since at least I’ve studied that, and I can do slightly more with it than Spanish, (at least I can read it) but otherwise, the languages that I’m familiar with are more dialects than anything else, and useful only to the few people who still speak them. (not that many).

BUT, I said that to say that I’ve done a lot of traveling in many places where English is NOT the ‘main’ language, and I’ve even done a considerable amount of driving in those places. (like back and forth across Europe a few times). And, because I’m a good driver, I really didn’t have many troubles, (even with Atlas’s in German, Italian, Spanish) because for the most part, one can pretty much figure out what STOP, GO, and EXIT mean. And then there are sort of like the ‘universal’ signs that work for people who can’t even read. So, in the end, it generally works out. Still, it does help to know the basics. So, maybe we can agree that if a person knows basically what a ship is, and has at least some experience in operating one –on the open seas or in the smaller bodies of water- then probably they’ll manage well enough, regardless of where they happen to be. Fortunately for those of us who ONLY speak one language fluently, English is the one that is pretty much universal. Now that isn’t everywhere of course, and so if any of us were to choose to go some place where it WASN’T the spoken language, then I guess it should be up to us to LEARN it. (preferably before we go – and that would apply to our own imperialist ventures to places like Iraq, where the majority of the population speaks Arabic).

Part 5 of 5 for Gomerspile

Meantime, I can almost always figure out when somebody is cussing me out, no matter what language they’re speaking. And, I’m perfectly OK with your misspellings, as long as you aren’t in the process of ‘correcting’ somebody else at the same time. I abhor hypocrisy by the way. And you’re right; It did go over my head about the ‘engrish’, if only because it was included with all of the other misspellings. But, I would agree that many Asians have difficulty with the ‘L’ sound in English. Some would say that they have trouble driving as well. (I have a friend who routinely swears at them every time she tries to navigate her way around San Jose, CA, which has a large Asian population). But hey, what can ya do? I’m sure lots of English speaking folks feel the same way about me when I’m in close proximity to them on a skateboard. They just don’t expect that a 50- some-odd year old women should be hauling ass around on a skateboard, nor is it necessarily my own preference. Sometimes we just do what we gotta do.

And NOW, I’ve gotta look for a bike, so I can get to the ferry. (yep, I use those too, when I’m heading to a place that needs that mode of transportation to reach it). I noticed earlier though, that the ‘police’ are supposedly investigating the disaster in the Bay. And, since I stopped trusting the main stream media many years ago, I haven’t read the details yet, but when I do, it will be with that in mind – that it’s the main stream media, which must always be supplemented or otherwise corroborated by others sources, if we really want to believe what is being written. So, that will leave us something to discuss.

Oh, by the way…if you lived in SF long ago, (back when it was a ‘decent’ place to be) then you would probably be very disappointed now. I find it to be mostly that, at least in comparison. It’s either very run down, or very ‘gentrified’. Not much place for the average citizen these days. Times are either very hard, (for most) or extremely ‘elite’ (for the few others) So, that’s kind of sad. But, it’s not just there…much of our society has become that way. Very polarized between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have nots’.

#113212 by Gomerspile
• Your Shallow lack of knowledge of ocean going vessels has just leaked out like some bad oil.Driving Bear was correct Large craft are turned over to harbor masters.Maybe this one was also,no one knows except the people involved,but you liberal conspericy nuts always see the plot to bring down your little peice of Paradise was on one of the largest warships in the world, and we turned it over to an Egyptian harbor pilot to bring it thru the Suez Canal.Trying to convince you otherwise would be my mistake. the media is supposed to be on your side, they want to upset the apple cart also.
GomerP,

There would appear to be a very MAJOR disconnect in your brain. You’re calling MY knowledge shallow? HELLO? WHERE exactly do you live? I know that Driving Bear is a US resident, and just assumed that you were as well, since you’ve made all of these disparaging remarks about the ‘liberals’ of SF, and have written as if you were somehow joined at the hip to our former Gov, Gray Davis.

So, just exactly WHO do you mean, when you say ‘WE” turned over WHAT to take through the Suez Canal? The Suez Canal isn’t a US possession. So, is there something missing in your post here? I mean, in addition to all of these misspellings, is there some connection to a warship being guided navigated through the Suez Canal by an Egyptian, that somehow pertains to the Harbor operations in our own San Francisco Bay? I mean, the Suez Canal doesn’t belong to us. It was financed by the Egyptians and the French, and they built it as well. Are you drunk? On drugs? Were YOU somehow the person responsible for whatever warship it is that you’re talking about? If so, I guess the Egyptians WOULD demand that you turn it over to them, to navigate through THEIR canal. They probably didn’t want a whole bunch of oil or hazardous waste dumped into it by a drunken ship captain.

As for the Harbor operations in the San Francisco Bay, the Harbor crew does NOT ‘take over’ from the assigned crew of the ship, at least not until that ship is docked where it’s supposed to be docked. No VALET PARKING in the harbor asshole!!

So, STFU and just go back to whatever it is that you’re imbibing, or tend to your lobotomy. And, stay off the computer without adult supervisor, or the attendant personnel there to look over your shoulder, and make sure that you aren’t making a complete ass of yourself.

We’re talking 21st Century here, and we’re talking about the San Francisco Bay. NOT the Suez Canal in the Middle East, however many years ago you’re talking about. (do you even KNOW?)

#113139 by driving bear on 11/12 at 11:04 am

DB,

I don’t know if it’s necessarily a stupid question, but it’s irrelevant. Are you of the impression that an inbound or outbound ship/tanker somehow ‘changes hands’ once inside/outside the actual harbor? Like valet parking or something? Because, that WOULD be stupid. I’m sure there are in fact harbor crews that do move the ships around for various reasons, when there are ships/tankers docked that have to be moved to other spots.(kind of like a maintenance crew might taxi an aircraft from a hangar to a gate or the reverse, but only after it’s been completely relieved of all of it’s payload - people/cargo/ect).

But no, that wasn’t the case here. Vessel captains (ships/planes/trains/etc) are supposed to stay with their vessels. They don’t just get to a certain point and then turn it over to somebody else.

As for the ‘chicken little’ example that you’re using to describe 58,000 gallons of ‘who knows what’ spilled into a major harbor/port/bay it would again appear that you have zero knowledge about how the ocean and other bodies of water on the globe, affect the rest of the globe. This is a very sad thing, this inability to connect major components of common sense type knowledge. So, if you think this is a ‘chicken little’ reaction, maybe you’d be more impressed if this was 58,000 gallons of nuclear stuff?

Then again, maybe not. Yours is obviously a very, very, very tiny world DB. Your world view certainly reflects that.

So, just for the record, it IS a major environmental disaster to have 58,000 gallons of just about ANY substance, spilling into a major waterway or body of water. That would be the case even if it could be immediately contained, before it could be taken up by the natural currents, and carried to god only knows where.

And yes, it’s also a major disaster to kill off all of the local wildlife that is in fact an integral part of the environment. Humans do actually depend on various parts of the environment for their OWN survival.

What do bears eat?

#113173 by Louise

• “The spill is far worse than is being reported in the national news… and it’s not an oil spill… it’s a hazardous chemical spill. Diane Feinstein was warning people who want to rescue the birds to not get near the stuff… it’s dangerous...”
Just saw that on a blog. Is that true, or rumor?
The fog was a big factor. It’s way past time to stop allowing these tankers in the bay in the fog.

Louise,
Thanks so much for posting this link, as I’d not seen it yet. (nor have I been to the site myself). However, a nephew who has just returned a few hours ago, and will be going back up later this evening, has confirmed that things are indeed far worse than the media is claiming. So, are we looking at yet another major cover-up to a gigantic screw-up? I don’t know. He probably wouldn’t know himself, about the hazardous nature of the spill, (in other words, anything outside of the oil that has been acknowledged as the substance, but even that is major enough).

‘Coast Guard officers initially said 140 gallons of the viscous fuel had oozed out, and then failed to update local officials or the public for more than 12 hours as the extent of the disaster grew.’

Yes of course fog would have been THE major factor. That’s why (at least prior to 2001) common safety practices were generally adhered to. That’s why the entire transportation industry has such strict standards. That’s why professionals are expected to exercise common sense in addition to following the regulations. That’s why we HAVE these regulations, INCLUDING the ones that prohibit the transportation of hazardous materials. That’s why a controller, dispatcher will keep an aircraft grounded, or divert it, if there is fog in the area, or any other field or in-flight conditions that would jeopardize the safety of any operation, even if the respective crews might be stupid enough to ‘try it’ anyway. That’s why such decisions are never left to just ‘one’ person, even if it’s the assigned Captain of the vessel.

Thanks for pointing this out as well:

• Has nothing to do with language. I’m still surprised when I hear someone complain about this. In the sky, on the land or on the sea, universally the vast majority of pilots, conductors, engineers, flight directors, tug boat captains and ship captains speak English. Absolutely essential since few Americans know any other language.

I guess I would have been surprised to hear such stupidity myself, (about the language) if I hadn’t been reading so many comments for so long on TD. (and other blogs). The sad and simple fact is that so many Americans are simply stupid now. I don’t know how it happened, that we’ve got these entire generations of folks who are so totally dumbed down, but…you see the proof. It’s all right here. So, now I’m not even surprised anymore.

Matter of fact, after reading some of this stuff, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see somebody ‘blame’ whoever built the Bay Bridge. (it was in their way) Or, maybe somebody would blame Al Gore for attempting to ‘control’ the environment, which they equate with the ‘weather’. I don’t suppose they’d go so far as to blame God for putting the fog there, so it’s far easier to simply ‘guess’ that it’s the fault of someone who couldn’t understand English, even though that would only come into play if the entire crew was blind, and unable to detect that they were in the midst of fog.

OK, I’m gonna see what else I can find out. It’s bad enough that the stuff has smothered and killed so much wildlife, not to mention the disaster to the local residents. But, if the hazardous stuff is true, more than just those residents will be affected, and maybe the kids need bio-suits before they go back up.

Meantime, I’m wondering what they’ve done with all of the other traffic that routinely uses the bay/harbor. Gotta get that stuff to Wal-Mart, and the people need their oil.

I’m sure if Halliburton, Custer and Battle or Blackwater had people in the clean up service they would have been on site by now.

The only clean up service they employ is clean up of the taxpayers money.

“No good deed goes unpunished”

http://www.marinij.com/ci_7430910?source=most_emailed

“At least that’s how Muir Beach resident Sigward Moser felt Friday after he says he was threatened with a Taser gun, forced to the ground and handcuffed by a National Park Service ranger for refusing to stop cleaning up the oily beach beneath his home.

“They were upset, but we tried to reassure them why trained professionals are needed to do this work,” said National Park Service publicist Rich Weideman, citing health hazards and unintended injuries to wildlife by untrained volunteers.”

Sounds good, but is that the real reason?

“The spill is far worse than is being reported in the national news… and it’s not an oil spill… it’s a hazardous chemical spill. Diane Feinstein was warning people who want to rescue the birds to not get near the stuff… it’s dangerous...”

Just saw that on a blog. Is that true, or rumor?

The fog was a big factor. It’s way past time to stop allowing these tankers in the bay in the fog.

[Oh, that will never do, we need our oil NOW!]

Has nothing to do with language. I’m still surprised when I hear someone complain about this. In the sky, on the land or on the sea, universally the vast majority of pilots, conductors, engineers, flight directors, tug boat captains and ship captains speak English. Absolutely essential since few Americans know any other language.

Marine Spill Response Corp., or MSRC, is a private company that provides oil cleanup equipment to Hanjin, the South Korean shipping company that operates the vessel. MSRC was created for catastrophic disaster.

So why the delay? MSRC has a response center in Concord California.

Was the delay to determine whether or not the spill was “catastrophic”? Was the delay caused by the necessity of going round about through Hanjin? Was the delay deliberate allowing time for the fuel or “a hazardous chemical” to be moved to another tanker, was that when the biggest spill occurred? According to some sources it is.

“In an effort to improve the safety and environmental protections in connection with bringing such products {petroleum] to market, Congress enacted the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 (OPA-90). The Act has numerous provisions ... including specific requirements for those engaged in the handling, storage, and transport of oil and petroleum products to “ensure by contract . . . private personnel and equipment necessary to remove to the maximum extent practicable a worst-case discharge.”

So going back to private citizen, Sigward Moser. Is this just one more example of the horrible unintended consequence that often accompanies congressional action?

... to “ensure by contract . . . private personnel and equipment ...”

Was that the real reason why the Coast guard appeared to be moving slowly?

Nobody can do nothin’ till the “official, by contract, private personnel” clean-up guys arrive. Then you can stand and watch ... maybe.

MSRC is supposed to be a non-profit, and was created as the direct result of congressional action. A republican controlled congress, so you can bet somebody somewhere is making profit off of this disaster. How to turn someone’s tragedy into an opportunity for profit. It’s the republican way.

Long way of saying, congress may be too blame for the delay ... duh

But, California needs to stand on their States rights if a federal ruling impedes their recovery. And they certainly have the right to determine when the fog is too dangerous to allow these tankers under the bridge.

At least I think so.

Dumb question

At the time of the accident was the Ship’s captain in control or was it a harbor pilot?

Also news reports said the ship spilled 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. This is not chicken little “the sky is falling” type of environmental damage.

#112983 by driving bear

You’re right about the dates for Hong Kong reverting back to it’s own ownership DB. I realized that after sending post, only after trying to remember where I was when I watched the ceremonies taking place. Indeed, it’s been 10 long years, but I’ve visited since, and not much has changed, nor would I have really expected it to.

As for this….
• 4th remember that a ship captain answers to the ship owners. If a ship misses arriving in port on time it
can cost the shipping company alot of money so the captain was most likely under pressure to continue into port.

Well, DUH. Isn’t that the whole reason why the captain was obviously rushing through the fog in the bay? Anyone who’s spent any time at all in the commercial transportation racket knows that it’s all about TIME. Every minute counts – about the money. Oh yes. We all know THAT.

And, it’s always been so stupid to risk safety for that extra dime, because of what it costs in the end, like here. In case you weren’t away, the shipping company IMMEIDATELY promised to pay for the clean up. (not unlike the airlines that declare ‘pilot error’ IMMEDIATELY after an air incident, before anyone has even had a chance to investigate. WHY? Well, they wanna hurry up and settle any claims, (real cheap) before they can grow. (and of course this is always the case when the pilots have been killed in the disaster, so they sure can’t speak for themselves to say otherwise.)
As for this incident, I mentioned before, it’s already been determined to be HUMAN ERROR. Now, if you can think of some other “humans” to blame it on, besides this captain, go for it. And, if you’re interested in the details of the 3 other incidents for which he was cited, you can go for that as well. Common sense tells me that the second one should have been it. But then, that’s just the way it is when you’ve got a job that has the lives of others at risk.

So, as you see, that rush to save that company that money, has in fact cost that company quite a bit. But, it’s cost far more in the damage done to the environment. Now of course we know you don’t care about any of that, because you’ve yet to figure out the connection between the environment and the rest of the world (including your own little cave), since I guess they haven’t interpreted that part of the bible for you yet.

However, even the few tiny sparks that make it through your brain should tell you that it’s really NOT a good thing, to have a major harbor – ANYWHERE, full of crude oil that is destroying all of the wildlife, just because the guy was in a hurry to make his on-time arrival.

And, for professionals by the way, (such as ship captains) they’re supposed to answer to safety, not the ship’s owners, who will simply write this off, as I’m sure they’ve already done.

But, rethuglicans never answer to anything other than the almighty dollar, which is rapidly losing its value by the way. Sure hope you’ve converted yours.

reply to
#112961 by cyrena on 11/11 at 5:11 pm

First off Hong Kong reverted back to China in 1997 , ten years ago.

Second the SF paper said the captain had 4 incidents since 1990 but only mentioned the one where the ship went aground. What where the other 3. Where they minor or major. Also how does that record compare to other captains. Also how many “trips” in and out of SF bay did this captain make.

3rd Just apply your knowledge of basic physics. An object the size of ship does not change course or stop on a dime due to its large mass.

4th remember that a ship captain answers to the ship owners. If a ship misses arriving in port on time it
can cost the shipping company alot of money so the captain was most likely under pressure to continue into port.

So in essence I say wait for all the facts before you condemn the captain

Fine them out of existence and revoke their U.S. operating license.

Hopefully other shippers will get the message.

#112888 by Gomerspile

Gomer,

The only thing you’ve said in this post, is what I’ve already stated. Besides, I already know this stuff.

Meantime, I’ve seen two headers pop up on my reader since my last comment here. BOTH have noted that HUMAN ERROR was the cause of this incident. DUH! That’s what I already said. HUMAN ERROR is the cause 99% of the time, in any of these incidents.

As of two or more days ago, the crew had been tested for alcohol, (which is probably indicated in the article) and the results were negative. They were waiting for drug test results (of the crew) to come back. I think it’s all a waste of time, because the bottom line is that they were operating in dense fog, and ran into the flippin’ bridge, which caused the disaster. This is not rocket or medical science.

It has less than nothing to do with language, and again, there’s no reason to believe that the crew didn’t speak English anyway. The ship was registered to a Hong Kong company, Hong Kong as in the same one that was ‘owned and operated’ by the British until what, 4 or 5 years ago, maybe less?

Have you ever been to Hong Kong Gpile? It’s still very ‘British” and cosmopolitan. They speak English there, (among other languages) at least the ship owners damn sure do. Regardless of all of that, even a deaf mute would have been able to recognize that there was fog in the area, and if they had even an inkling of anything to do with operating a ship –anywhere- they would have, and should have known not to be cruising through the bay is the fog. Fog isn’t new. Fog and water isn’t new. Bridges across waterways aren’t new. The captain of this vessel has supposedly been doing this for over a quarter of a Century. He’s screwed up before.

What else is there to know?

I read one of the posters talk about double hulls on ships. I can’t swear to it but I remember watching a doc about the Exxon Valdez spill and the report said double hull would not be required until 2012 or 2015.

Also with as much ship traffic going in and out of the west coast accidents like this will happen.

• #112798 by Margaret Currey
You have foreign companies coming into the Bay these people do not know the waters and sometime instruments make mistakes after all they are not human and maybe even weather can cause instruments go be off or maybe the navigators were off, one wonders how was their English?
Margaret,

This is a curious sort of a statement here, at least if I’m reading it correctly…

You say that “sometimes instruments make mistakes – after all, they are not human”

Umm, would that mean that HUMANS DON’T make mistakes? Let’s break this down a little, and we might even use the help of some broad sorts of statistics…

First, nearly ALL disasters of this sort can be (and are) attributed to HUMAN ERROR. HUMANS make the instruments. Humans read and interpret the instruments. The only time that we might be able to attribute such things to non-humans, is in weather related incidents, (as you’ve mentioned). But, even then, it means a mistake in human judgment, since weather is always to be assessed, to the degree possible. So, aside from the freak storm, or even just the standard pattern of Mother Nature that cannot always be predicted, (no matter how sophisticated the instruments or the ‘prediction tools’) these are matters of human error. 

To suggest that this might be the ‘fault’ of the instruments, is like saying ‘the computer did it”. Who programs the computers? I would suggest humans. How about the dog eating homework? Dogs DO eat homework, (and other things) but whose fault is it for leaving the homework in a place where the dog can get to it?

And so it would appear to be with this disaster as well. According to this article, it WAS a weather related accident, (the ship rammed into the Bay Bridge in dense fog) But, since there is almost ALWAYS dense fog in the SF Bay, I’d put it on the humans doing the navigating. And, it would have little to do with the language of the crew. Ships are ships, they don’t speak a ‘language’. Fog is fog, whatever ‘language’ you want to use to describe it. If one needs an instrument to see fog, than one should probably not be navigating anything, regardless of what language they speak.

And, the same oxymoron applies to your suggestion of all these ‘foreign shipping companies’ coming into our ports/bays, since very BASIC common sense would say that ships coming into major ports would be…FOREIGN!! How do we get a US shipping company to bring all that shit over from China, that you buy up at the local Walmart? And, what US ships would be bringing OIL from wherever? (unless it was maybe Alaska). From the beginning of time, PORTS have ALWAYS accommodated vessels from all over the globe. FOREIGN vessels traded slaves, sugar, tea, rice, etc, etc. And now, they bring tons and tons of OIL, (along with the shit from China). That’s what ports are for. How else are you gonna get the oil that we steal back over here, if not on FOREIGN vessels? So, while this is indeed a ‘foreign vessel” (registered to a company out of Hong Kong) that’s not the least bit “odd’, and there’s no indication at all, that the crew didn’t speak English, since most Hong Kong business people DO.

That said, it still isn’t a ‘requirement’ for navigation on the high seas seeing as how the language of navigation is quite universal. For AVIATION navigation, English is designated as the universal language in communicating with the people on the ground. I don’t know that the same applies in navigating the high seas or not. I’m not sure it matters. A compass is a compass, and a ship is a ship. The ‘water’ doesn’t speak English over any other language, and like I mentioned, fog is fog in any language, and that bridge has been there for a real long time. One needn’t know English to know that ships should avoid colliding with bridges or anything else.

I’m sure this Capt spoke English, but he still crashed the ship into the bridge in the fog, and he’s been cited several times before, for other serious incidents.

If this was a cocaine or marijuana spill the government would have exaggerated the potential damage by 10000 times, blown the story all out of proportion and responded with an aircraft-carrier battle group.

#112723 by Conservative Yankee

CY,

I think you’re right. Of course, folks like to call me paranoid. Still, what else are we supposed to think. These SOB’s have been after us for 7 years. That’s how former Governor got recalled. For trying to stand up to the Thugs in DC.

Did I mention I hate these bastards?

Nope, there’s nothing that private contractors won’t do, at least not as long as they can suck up all of the money when these emergency services are required. They were out in force for the fires, (private contractors with individual contracts to protect individual residences) If you have the money, you hire your own emergency response team. If you’re just an ordinary tax payer, you burn up or get sucked up by spilled oil. A spill “first reported” as 140 gallons that has somehow become 58,000.

And how did this happen anyway?

..."Capt. John Cota, 59, has been a master mariner for more than a quarter century. But since the early 1990s he has been investigated for four separate incidents, and last year was reprimanded for running a ship aground, the San Francisco Chronicle reported today...”

Four separate incidents, same dude. What the hell is going on here? Why is he still on ANYBODY’S payroll? (same reason the Dick Bush Cabal is I guess).

Why did it take 90 minutes for the Coast Guard to repond? It’s the flippin’ SAN FRANCISCO BAY!! Their supposed to LIVE there!! Where’s our Coast Guard? Oh yeah, I forgot. The Persian Gulf? Maybe Guantanamo Bay, Cuba? Wherever they were when they WERE NOT on our own Gulf Coast for the hurricanes Katrina ad Rita response? Is that how we got blackwater instead? Does Capt. Cota work for blackwater too?

How’s Nancy Pelosi holding up? It’s spilling right into her backyard.

Tell me again HOW this happened…

Oil spill? Contractors? That really does sound like Blackwater.

Seriously though, is there anything private contractors don’t do?