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 Schumer and Feinstein Hand Torture a VictoryPosted on Nov 6, 2007Do we really need another attorney general who doesn’t know what torture is? The Senate Judiciary Committee just barely approved the nomination of Michael Mukasey on Tuesday. He is expected to breeze through the rest of the process. Remember some weeks from now, when the head of the Justice Department is a man who, despite fact and testimony and common sense, can’t call torture by its name, Sens. Dianne Feinstein and Charles Schumer are responsible.
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By msgmi, November 8, 2007 at 10:15 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Feinstein and Schumer were probably swayed by Senator Lieberman to support Mukasey’s nomination for AG. Both Feinstein and Schumer’s argument of better he (Mukasey) than another Beto holds no ‘water’. What difference would it make if Mukasey were not nominated. Beto’s term as AG is proof that it is not an independent government arm, but a ‘yes-man’ to anything the administration favors.
Report thisBy Leefeller, November 8, 2007 at 7:39 am #
Feinstein and Polisi both come from the Bay Area, they are a running neck and neck on the race to become neocons if not already past the finish line. Principals in politics is money and good old boy towel snapping horseplay in the locker room.
Report thisBy ocjim, November 8, 2007 at 7:16 am #
Feinstein is the epitome of equivocation and “go-along” with what is absolutely wrong. She also demonstrated this tendency in voting for the Medicare prescription drug bill that gives our money to HMOs and drug companies. There should be some principles in politics. The issue of torture goes against basic rights. The issue of giving taxpayer money to drug companies and HMOs while many seniors do without necessities is also wrong. Feinstein is becoming a good Republican.
Report thisBy purplewolf, November 8, 2007 at 1:22 am #
Cyrena,let them use jumper cables for the electrodes, they have those nice little grippie teeth on some one them to dig in so they don’t accidently come use during use. Ball-gag is included for the one being tortured (it’s not torture unless we say so)and ear plugs so drown out the screams so as not to bother others.
Report thisBy cyrena, November 8, 2007 at 1:08 am #
#112179 by Don Stivers on 11/07 at 2:11 pm
re: roman
• Suppose YOU are collared by someone in our government who starts to squeeze your testicles or slap you around. Think about that! What would YOU do under those circumstances? What would YOU say to make them let go?
Don, it’s been determined that talking to rowman is a waste of time, although I DO like your suggestion here. Don’t ask him to think about it though. Let’s just DO it to him, and see what’ll happen. And, don’t squeeze his testicles, because you don’t know what you might catch. Better to just rig them up with the electrical shock devices, (using those sandpaper type protective gloves) and just keep pressing the controls until they’re on the highest notch. Doesn’t matter what he says to make it stop, since we don’t really care what he says anyway.
They’ve done similar experiments in the past, but I don’t think we got to find out what would happen if the electrodes were placed directly on the testicles. So, this would give us more complete data. And, we could have a few hungry canines in attendance as well. Just as an extra input for the variables.
We’ll arrange it as a ‘ticking bomb scenario” experiment, since that’s the one that rowman is most enamored with. I think he dreams about this stuff.
Report thisBy Louise, November 7, 2007 at 9:10 pm #
Source: BRAD BLOG, AFTERDOWNINGSTREET
BREAKING: Wexler Will Urge House Judiciary Committee to ‘Schedule Impeachment Hearings Immediately’
Letter Calling for Action Sent to Constituents After Kucinich Resolution to Impeach Cheney is Referred to Committee
Says ‘Vice President Cheney must answer for his deceptive actions in office’
As reported in full by David Swanson, in the wake of yesterday’s wild ride (and game of chicken) on the House floor concerning the privileged resolution filed by Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), calling for the Impeachment of Dick Cheney.
The following is from a letter sent to constituents today by Rep. Robert Wexler (D-FL), a member of the House Judiciary Committee, where the matter has been sent again.
Wexler is now calling for the committee “to schedule impeachment hearings immediately and not let this issue languish as it has over the last six months."…
FULL STORY: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5263
Read more: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5263
“Okay folks, now is the time to start glaring at the congresscritters. Go to Congress.org and get the contact info for your representatives. Don’t waste time with email; it is scanned for buzzwords to trigger automated replies and otherwise ignored. Phone or FAX or visit the office of your congresscritters and make the message simple and clear; you will NOT vote for any congresscritter who does not vote for impeachment. If they reply with the usual “well it may not come up for a vote”, look them straight in the eye and say “Too bad, because if you can’t vote for impeachment, then I cannot vote for you.” If they whine that it isn’t up to them just keep saying, “Too bad. Make it happen. If you can’t make it happen, you are not qualified for the job.” If they say, “That’s not fair”, just say, “Life isn’t fair. Deal with it!”
Remind them that the name on their office door is written in dry-erase marker, and WE THE PEOPLE hold the eraser!
If need be, we’ll impeach the entire Congress.
If need be, we’ll impeach the entire #$%^ing government!”
Whatreallyhappened
Report thisBy Leefeller, November 7, 2007 at 7:55 pm #
lawlessone,
Great post, love it worth the read.
Thanks
Report thisBy Jeff, November 7, 2007 at 7:10 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Lawlessone has revealed the major flaw in the arguments of many of the people on this site. He says, “If it’s okay to abandon the Constitution for an Al-Qaeda operative...” THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT APPLY TO AL-QAEDA OPERATIVES! For that matter, it does not apply to any non-U.S. citizen. Now there are, of course, other laws that may apply, and hopefully basic human rights would prevail, but stop citing the Constitution - it makes you sound stupid.
The speculation on this site is amazing. I say speculation, because I doubt any of you has actually been to Iraq or Afghanistan. In your little fantasy world, you see U.S. military and other personnel randomly rounding up foreigners and torturing them for information that they don’t have. Here is reality: An Afghan citizen reports to a group of U.S. soldiers that there are members of a terrorist group in a nearby village. The U.S. soldiers, with the help of Afghan soldiers, apprehend these terrorists and take them to a nearby Afghan military base. The terrorists are questioned and reveal the location of a huge weapons cache that was intended for use against both military and civilian targets. The weapons are confiscated and the terrorists are imprissoned (by and Afghan court). Or how about this: You are awakened in the middle of the night to a rocket attack on a joint Afghan/U.S. base. A partol of Afghan and U.S. soldiers is dispatched to track down the perpetrators. They are caught and through interrogation reveal many of the tactics used in attacking U.S. and Afghan forces. Isn’t that amazing? The terrorists actually had information that helped save the lives of U.S. and Afghan citizens, and we didn’t even have to resort to waterboarding.
I also just want to point out that no one has answered the “what would you do” question posed earlier. Of course, this isn’t the first time it has been asked (and avoided) on this site
Finally, you can’t use Timothy McVeigh as an example; everyone on this site “knows” he was a CIA Operative.
Report thisBy homovivens, November 7, 2007 at 3:07 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
DI-FI FO FUM, I smell the blood of a tortured son.
Schumer to later the duplicity of our our two-party charade would show its faces in the Specter of turncoat Lieberman that hovers over this Congress like a pall—and most appallingly. Is this the 13th Tribe or what?
Report thisBy Conservative Yankee, November 7, 2007 at 2:58 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Scum Republicrats. Guilointon and Othompsna
Vote Kucinich 2008!
Report thisBy Don Stivers, November 7, 2007 at 2:11 pm #
re: roman
It would be nice if we could take murders, rapists and terrorists out and torture the hell out of them until they die.
The problem is, innocent people have been mistaken for murders, rapists and terrorists. That is the point. How do YOU know or anybody else know who a real terrorist is? The United States went to war over words from a tortured person who gave false information.
Suppose YOU are collared by someone in our government who starts to squeeze your testicles or slap you around. Think about that! What would YOU do under those circumstances? What would YOU say to make them let go?
Even our worst criminals get their day in court to hopefully find the truth. Barry Scheck and the innocence program has proven terrible travesties of justice with their DNA analysis. Innocent people have been exonerated after serving many years on death row because of screw ups by those in the know.
Report thisBy robert baruch, November 7, 2007 at 1:58 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Dear Senator Feinstein,
Congratulations on your support of Michael “Torture Is Whatever George W. Bush Says It Is” Mukasey for U.S. Attorney General. I’ve always thought that you were a disgrace to your state, your country, and to humanity. Thank you for validating my opinion.
The rationale for your support (that he’s not Alberto Gonzales) is such a blatant assault on human decency it would make the despotic generals of Myanmar blink in disbelief. Only George W. Bush and his “Inquisitors” could set the bar of justice so low. Yet, true to form, you have managed to slither under it.
If you had any principles or integrity you would be ashamed of yourself. You don’t and you’re not. How sad for you; how devastating for our country.
Report thisBy John Borowski, November 7, 2007 at 1:41 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
In a right wing dictatorship there ain’t no Democratic Party.
Report thisBy lawlessone, November 7, 2007 at 12:48 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
The Neocons’ favorite justification for legalizing torture is the now infamous “we’ve captured a terrorist who won’t tell us where the bomb is hidden.” That rationalization is popular and persuasive to some probably because it contains an unstated false premise - that we actually have captured a terrorist who has useful information. This scenario also presupposes guilt, a determination our founding fathers insisted should be determined in a more methodical process.
The likelihood of them really catching a competent terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere rather than just setting it off immediately is probably less than you being eaten by a shark in Kansas. Moreover, both studies and anecdotal information from professional interrogators indicate that physical torture seldom produces reliable information. It’s not that torturees won’t talk, it’s that they’ll say anything to stop the pain or drowning. In addition, other techniques, including drugs, have proven more productive.
Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, let’s grant the Neocons their fantasy scenario, but change one aspect of it. Let’s suppose there’s a genuine terrorist and he personally hid a bomb under a convent. Let’s assume we got lucky and traced the unknown evildoer to a residential complex with a 1000 people in it.
What do you do now Neocons? Torture everyone in the building? If it’s okay to abandon the Constitution for an Al-Qaeda operative, is it okay to abandon it for a 1000 ordinary citizens? Or, should we torture just the men? (Yeah right, no one under 21 ever was recruited to cause harm and no woman ever had a grievance against our society.) Torture just those who with a darker skin or foreigners with an accent on the assumption that only they would bomb a building? (Oops, forgot about Timothy McVeigh, didn’t you?) Torture only the non-Christians? (I don’t think any of our abortion clinic bombers claimed they were Muslim.) Torture just those wearing turbans? (That’s going to irritate pretty badly Hindus and all Siekhs.) Torture only those who have guns in their homes? (Wow, that would be a tough one for the Neocons who also tend to be almost pathological when it comes to defending the portion of the Constitution regarding freedom to have guns.) So, what about torturing only those who have a two days growth of beard and non-blond hair? In other words, Central Casting’s concept of villains?
Remember, this scenario leaves 999 maimed and scarred on their bodies and/or their minds trying to find the one terrorist hidden among them. That is an unproven conclusion, but okay, suppose we know the bomber is somewhere in a city of a 100,000 and we know the bomb is a nuclear one which might kill 100,001? Still a good idea? The cost/benefit ratio is still greater on the side of benefits by one.
Heck, let’s say the bomber is in Portland and the nuclear bomb is a hydrogen one shipped into the port of New York or LA. Now the saving ratio is perhaps ten to one. As to Portland, should we say . . . too bad? That’s the risk you take of living in a “war zone?” Collateral damage so to speak?
Ultimately, when backed against the wall by being confronted with all the fallacies of the Jack Bauer scenario, the Neocons stubbornly fall back to their usual assertion that if there is even a 1% chance that we can prevent a nuclear detonation, we must take it no matter what it costs. The way to combat such nonsense is to counter with something Scott Adams suggested in his blog as a possible way to negotiate a settlement with Iran to prevent them from getting the bomb. He suggested we offer Iran the testicles of Bush and Cheney in exchange for a permanent inspection right to insure no bombs are being made. IF THERE IS EVEN A 1% CHANCE THAT IT WOULD WORK, WE MUST TAKE IT!
Report thisBy dsmith, November 7, 2007 at 11:09 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
RdV, you hit the nail on the head. Schumer and company don’t care that 600,000 Iraqis are dead and two million Iraqis are living in tents in Jordan as a direct result of the US invasion. Kill 600,000 Jews and then count the seconds before Speilberg begins production of a sympathetic Jews are victims movie. A shoe in for an Oscar!
I’m not sure how two Jewish senators can in good conscience support torture. How can they ever cry about tortured Jews during the holocaust when they themselves appove of holding suspects in jail, without trial, while being tortured? Answer...Its happening to Muslims.
Don
Report thisBy jay arr, November 7, 2007 at 11:01 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
What do Schummer, Feinstein and Mukasey have in common? Or better still, what lobby moved Schummer and Feintein to vote for Mukasey’s confirmation?
Report thisBy RdV, November 7, 2007 at 10:57 am #
And if the “terrorists” were viewed as American soldiers, rowman? My guess is you wouldn’t have as much trouble heeing or hawing about what exactly defines torture. Considering the Americans are responsible for the greatest number of deaths over all… and we all know, as the Zionists would have us believe, that all Arabs\Muslims are terrorist vermin, yes? Confine them in ghettos, rob their heritage and wealth, make them the scapegoat, steal their land. No holocaust there, huh?
Report thisBy rowman, November 7, 2007 at 10:04 am #
Is it in fact torture? I’m not sure but it sure is a persuasive technique. It’s not a big deal to me anyway. We want terrorist to consider the options before they commit a heinous act so I say keep the uncertainty.
I say to you that if this is something you want to take off the table what is your alternative?
“Please Mr. Terrorist, Please tell me where you put the bomb. We will not hurt you. We just want to know so you don’t blow up 1k people. Please, pretty please”.
If this situation were real, what would you do? It is a real scenario to consider and if were to rule it out, I want to know the alternative you propose.
And don’t say prison. In this country we know that is not a deterrent. Full medical benefits, three daily balanced meals, gym membership, and cable TV – all free. And we wonder why prisons are overcrowded…..
What persuasive techniques are we left with?
Report thisBy Kevin James, November 7, 2007 at 9:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Robert Sheer in his interview with Ralph Nader apologizes for the Democrats disagreeing with Nader’s assertion that “Similarities [between the Democrats and the Republicans] tower over the dwindling real differences”.
Report thisBy jkoch, November 7, 2007 at 9:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Schumer needs to back off anything that smacks of being critcial of the GWOT. Most of his constituents care little about the extraordinary rendition or interrogation of Muslims, even if there is only an outside chance of retrieving useful information. A few of his constituents, including a few key campaign donors, probably solidly approve of the policies, since they serve as a vicarious punishment and deterrent. Most people who back executions or torture don’t really care a great deal about the degree of evidence against a detainee. The important thing is to make the majority feel good by inflicting violence and pain which, even if metted against an innocent, still satisfies the collective craving for retribution. As in ancient or medieval times, the morale of the crowd rises if the king beheads or ties and quarters a “traitor” or “heretic” every now and then.
Report thisBy hazmaq, November 7, 2007 at 9:29 am #
Schumer and Emanuel/Van Hollen, as the keeper of the DSCC and DCCC committee funds, have long demoralized and weakened the Democratic party -and the pre-Dean 6 election losses prove the point.
In their world, it’s the contributors who dictate their talking points and in fact most of their activity.
But HALLELUJAH! The public at large finally sees through their bullshit, and they’re speaking out!
Ron Paul is the new Republican hero rising out of the ashes of the Texas Bush. And Kucinich of the Left is willing to be the guy blocking the tank on behalf of the Constitution the.
All things political across the country, are not what
the corporatists and insiders hope you’ll believe.
While the Schumers and the Leibermans and the Hoyers are too embedded in their seats to stop them from destroying the Democratic party all together, they better be prepared to pay for what they’ve done to America.
The first large scale poll of who ‘we the people’ want for 2008, is NOT Clinton.
Nationally, Kucinich is #1, and Gore is #2. Clinton barely placed.
http://democracyforamerica.com/pulsepoll/results
But the bestest bad news for Schumer, Lieberman and the other party insiders, is that Al Gore WON New York and Florida and Virginia and several other states!
Report thisBy mark, November 7, 2007 at 8:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Specter and Schumer are saying the Congress needs to pass a law against waterboarding. This is a smoke screen for their votes on torture. U.S. attorneys have already prosecuted torturers for waterboarding. Enforcement is needed not new legislation.
Report thisBy P. T., November 7, 2007 at 8:15 am #
The Democratic Party is not so much a political party as it is a collection of cynical, freelance opportunists. That is why Congress’s approval rating is even lower than Bush’s.
Report thisBy RdV, November 7, 2007 at 7:50 am #
Feinstein and Schumer...what do they care about the torture of the vermin Muslim-Arabs?
Now if it was the Jews, they would be the first in line voicing their outrage.
Report thisBy Louise, November 7, 2007 at 7:43 am #
Are the committee seats by accident or by design?
“As a member of the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee, Sen. Feinstein voted for appropriations worth billions to her husband’s firms.”
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feins tein-0704.html
Feinstein’s conflict of interest pushed her out of that subcommittee. But it appears a standard had been set.
Politicians can never see the unintended consequence that comes from motives driven by greed and power. But they always see their personal gains well in advance of carrying out a plan. The drive for more money and more power blinds people to any outcome beyond their own desire.
Then they find themselves trapped, owing their allegiance and their soul to the money and power brokers.
Left with two choices ... admit how easily they were corrupted, or lie with impunity ... which choice will they make?
We all know the answer.
Corruption does that. The corrupted develop a defense mechanism that says what they do is OK, because they believe “we the people” are too stupid to take care of ourselves. If they profit along the way while “taking care of us” that was never the intention, just the unintended consequence.
But maybe it’s not that simple. Maybe there’s a level of confusion, or ignorance, about what their oath means. About who and what they owe their allegiance to.
Maybe they believe they have to make a choice between supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States, and supporting a concept derived for the satisfaction and protection of a specific ethnic group. Choosing to elevate the perceived needs of that group above the needs of their own fellow citizens, and their own nation.
Are they really that dumb?
Are they really that corrupt?
“By their fruits ye shall know them.”
Brings an unpleasant scenario to mind ...
“I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the nation state of Israel ... “
Schumer and Feinstein are not my senators. I’m powerless to express my disappointment in them with my vote. But I hope those who can, will. Feinstein can retire and take up serious drinking, and Schumer can retire and write his memoirs.
Another “I didn’t do it!” Book.
Cant wait ...
Meanwhile, yet another shill has been elevated [by the torturer in chief] to a position where he can pretend to have more sense than God gave a Cumquat. While elevating the mediocrity and corruption and cruelty said “torturer in chief” works so hard to exemplify.
By the way:
“Also voting for Mukasey was Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), the committee’s only Republican Jew. Jewish Democrats voting against included Sens. Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold of Wisconsin and Benjamin Cardin of Maryland.”
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/105137.html
Proving not all Senators are confused about their allegiance.
Every citizen in THIS country has a right to expect our Senators will place allegiance to us, the Constitution and the United States ...
FIRST!
ALWAYS!
And if they cant understand that simple concept ... fire them!
Report thisBy Verne Arnold, November 7, 2007 at 6:27 am #
Two prominent Democrats, Sens. Dianne Feinstein (Calif.) and Charles E. Schumer (N.Y.), joined nine Republicans in voting for Mukasey, arguing that the former federal judge was the best candidate they could expect as the Bush administration’s replacement for Alberto R. Gonzales, who resigned as attorney general in September under a cloud of scandal.
Feinstein and Schumer; may they both go to the place of eternal fire and suffering for their total lack of ethical and selfless dedication to their constituents, their fellow humans and us honest Americans who detest torture by anybody...especially the U.S.
God help us, for surely nobody else will: Mukasey is the devil. Admit water boarding is torture and Bush and his whole administration are international criminals, which in fact they are! Get a spine you freaking democratic bastards! If you don’t save yourselves now, we will grind you to shit and hand you over to the Hague later.
Be afraid, be very afraid; justice is coming!
Report thisBy Marjorie L. Swanson, November 7, 2007 at 4:59 am #
Schumer and Feinstein plus Blue Dog Democrats means that a man who hasn’t the courage or the integrity to state without equivication that waterboarding is torture and that it is against our laws and our morals will be America’s Top Cop. Shame on them and shame on us for allowing such people to represent us in Washington D.C. Time for all these folks to retire. After all it isn’t as if they are representing the people now is it?
Report thisBy anonymous, November 7, 2007 at 4:55 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
birds of a feather flock together
Report thisBy thomas billis, November 7, 2007 at 2:06 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Once upon a time we had some statesmen in the government who when it was a choice between caving to a dictator and standing up for the American people they could make a hard choice and stand up for the people,Feinatein and Schumer just epitomize what is wrong with our politicians.In some calculation that even Einstein could not understand they caved to a President with a 25
p;proval rating.It is not just that waterboarding is repugnant it is what do we stand for as a country.If Bush made a recess appointment and destroyed the Attorney’s General office for a year so what.The Congress would have said in a loud voice we have an out of control president but the people do not support this policy.I knew that the democrats would cave in but as usual I had hope.They say that hope dies last.Mine is on life support.
Report thisBy Douglas Chalmers, November 7, 2007 at 1:35 am #
There MUST BE some Democrats who are in on the 9/11 TRUTH and who have thus been co-opted into supporting the Bush neocons!?!? They could already have connections to or be known supporters of the military-industrial complex in their own states.....
Just add (or delete) suspected names......
Feinstein
Report thisSchumer
Pelosi
By Douglas Chalmers, November 6, 2007 at 11:17 pm #
Pakistani chief justice to the Pakistani people: Rebel and overthrow Musharraf.....
Democrats on torture by the USA: Cave in to Bush, uhh
Report thisBy G.Anderson, November 6, 2007 at 10:38 pm #
American’s have gotten comfortable with the idea of water boarding, because it’s not being done to American citizens. But to people in far away places with strange names, and funny cultures, that have already been dehumanized by constant propaganda.
Once Water boarding is accepted, can we really be sure that it won’t begin to happen, in secret prisons, here in the United States?
Report thisBy Outraged, November 6, 2007 at 9:03 pm #
I smell a rat, two actually. I think Kennedy put it well:
“Enforcing the law is the job of the attorney general. It’s a prerequisite, not a virtue.”
Good for you, Sen. Kennedy, keep it up.
Report thisBy 911truthdotorg, November 6, 2007 at 8:41 pm #
When is this nightmare going to end with the bush crime family? The pussocrats truly disgust me.
Please watch this:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701 /?campaign=pbshomefeatures_1_frontlineworldbrextraordinaryr endition_2007-11-06
Google videos: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition, 9/11 Mysteries, Terror Storm, America: Freedom to Fascism
Report thisBy mark, November 6, 2007 at 7:45 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Schumer and Feinstein along with Arlen Specter are trying to glass over their torture votes by saying Congress needs to pass a law against waterboarding. This is false, a smokescreen, a hatch for WH criminals to escape from. U.S. prosecutors have already convicted torturers for waterboarding. These three are dangerous to our democracy.
Report thisBy vet240, November 6, 2007 at 7:05 pm #
Dianne Feinstein is a fascist who supports big Brother governments. In my book she’s just another closet Republican pro-corporate shill.
Report thisBy QuyTran, November 6, 2007 at 7:04 pm #
Their approved votes are for sale with shame !
Report this