Re:#110994 by Robert Giacobbe on 11/01

Robert, you made both these comments:
“This debate invites a lack of facts & logic from many folks.” 

“And folks are missing the bottom line point: for the offender, capital punishment is a 100% determent.”

*If capital punishment was 100% determent, there would not have been an offender.  Your comment IS “a lack of facts & logic”.

You also said, “the issue of incorrect convictions is very real and very troubling.  I’m disappointed that administrators have not put a more accurate and consistent system in place.  So I can support a temporary repeal in some very specific cases that warrant that, but the overall concept of capital punishment remains legitimate and effective enough to keep.”

*You claim, “the issue of incorrect convictions is very real and very troubling” but the “concept of capital punishment is legitimate. That is illogical assuming you are speaking of these issues within the same system. 

From wikipedia: “67% of capital convictions are eventually overturned, mainly on procedural grounds of incompetent legal counsel, police or prosecutors who suppressed evidence and judges who gave jurors the wrong instructions.[5][6] Seven percent of those whose sentences were overturned between 1973 and 1995 have been acquitted. Ten percent were retried and re-sentenced to death.[6] The remainder typically end up with lesser sentences, up to and including life imprisonment.”

*A whopping “67% of capital convictions are eventually overturned” according to the above article. Only 10% were resentenced to death after retrial with 7% being completely acquitted and you call this “very troubling” and then say “So I can support a temporary repeal in some very specific cases”?

Rodney,
Ok, assuming I was to agree with you just for the sake of argument.  What would you suggest we do?  It is easy to say abolish the death penalty, but quite another thing to suggest a “fair” punishment for such horrible crimes.

Assuming a really bad guy raped, tortured and murdered an unsuspecting coed in a college dorm just for kicks.  No self defense, nothing to cloud your judgment on the guilt of the perpetrator.  What is a “fair” punishment for the taking of a life?  Life in prison? 50 years behind bars?  Forced labor? Ankle bracelet and home restriction??  We all know prisons do not re-habilitate the hard core murderous criminal, in fact just the opposite, most who go to prison come out even worse than when they went in?

I do agree with you that the death penalty is not a deterrent for “society”, but it is a pretty good deterrent for the guilty criminal.  All I want is the murder to be removed from society.  Prison is part of our society.  Inmates kill other inmates all the time so prison is not the way to remove them from Society.

In every society there are those that will kill, steal and generally be up to no good.  It is not that difficult to “devise” a “fair” payment punishment for theft, or other more typical crimes but how do you put a value on taking ones life?

Curious to hear your thoughts

Rowdy, comment #110945

Well, said.

Many who do not agree with capital punishment do so from a “religious” perspective.  But, in all religions, (Christianity is at the top of the heap) people are historically put to death for adultery, blasphemy, being a witch, Idolatry and yes even not observing the Sabbath.

We are a strange species

let’s do like the jews and moslems and early KKKristians. let’s just stone people to death. or maybe we could use the example set out by the middle age KKKristians and burn people at the stake. we could assure their innocence or guilt by techniques used in the inquisition.  you know, the ones used by bush to get vital info from islamo-fascist terrorists. bring back gonzales,he knows how to get the job done. the bible condones extreme punishment so there is nothing cruel or unusual about any of this. hell, the bible recommends stoning for failing to observe the “sabbath”.

Marjorie, Post #110883

“I wasn’t aware that we did “allow” criminals to rape, pillage, plunder and murder. That’s where the punishment part comes in.”

*Well if you compare the “death sentence” a victim gets with a 30 or 40 year sentence (and possibly parole) or a second chance the perpetrator gets, this is tantamount to “allowing”!  If I steal a million dollars and found guilty and forced to pay back $10 is this punishment?  Is this a deterrent?

“And the reason we seek to be differentiate our actions from their action is that supposedly we are better than they are.”

*Yes, we are better than they are but the reason we use the death penalty is not to make ourselves feel superior but to get rid of someone who is capable of killing and will probably kill again if given the chance. 

“It’s about justice, not revenge. And killing someone to punish them for killing makes no sense.”

*No it is not “just” about justice, it is about getting rid of mortal threat to other law abiding citizens.  And if it is about justice tell me, what is justice for the rape and torture and killing of an innocent young man or woman or child?  10 yr. 50 yr. 51 yr.??? 

When a criminal is allowed to carry out death sentence on whoever “they” choose and however “they” choose to carry it out, why should he or she not be subject to the same form of treatment?

We as a civilization are trying to be “too” civilized.  We are trying to be “too” politically correct, we are trying so hard we are going to extremes and that is as dangerous as not trying at all. 

For extreme crimes there should be extreme punishments otherwise we would all trade 1 million dollars for $10 dollars regularly!

It’s obvious state sactioned killing isn’t reducing the violence in this country.  I’m always concerned about executing someone who is innocent, and since we have more people in jails then any other country, we probably need a serious review of our system….

“How come criminals are allowed to rape, pillage, plunder and murder in the most painful and creative ways possible, but the punishment needs to be painless, clean and serene?”

I wasn’t aware the we did “allow” criminals to rape, pillage, plunder and murder. That’s where the punishment part comes in. And the reason we seek to be differentiate our actions from their action is that supposedly we are better than they are. It’s about justice, not revenge. And killing someone to punish them for killing makes no sense.

It also makes no sense to allow a government that gets so many things wrong to “kill” anyone legally. We see innocent people being released from prison after many years when it is proved that they didn’t do the crime. Incompetents in charge of a death penalty should scare the hell out of every citizen.

Re: #110801 by Unapologetic Liberal on 10/31

Thank you so much for being a candid, caring and reasonable human being.  Your post eclipses it all.  Good for you.  Your post, one more time: 

One of the principles of the justice system - the principle that makes it a JUSTICE system and not a vengeance system - is that, when passing judgment, we don’t succumb to the same human weaknesses and passions as the people we are judging.  I imagine how I would feel if the person closest to me were killed, even tortured too…and that is not the me I would want in charge of someone else’s life.  I HOPE I would remember my values - not to mention theirs - but I would probably feel nothing but hatred, rage, grief and a lust for vengeance.  Which is why I should have A say…not THE say.

Furthermore, the justice system is run by people, not supremely intelligent, objective beings.  Even DNA evidence - which people too often accept as the be-all, end-all incontestable truth - is handled and processed by HUMANS, and consequently can be tampered with, mishandled or misinterpreted.  As long as a person’s fate rests in the hands of the occasionally biased, lazy, ignorant or just plain inept, a one-way ticket like execution has no business being on the table.

Sorry, I don’t buy it.
I am not a vengeful sort of guy most of the time, but what is fair about a guy murdering and raping a 20 year old girl, and he goes to prison for 40 years.  She gets a life sentance and he gets 40 years?? She looses her life in a tortured sort of way and he gets 3 square meals, computer time and books to read and is out in 20 years if he finds Jesus and does not make waves in prison.

I agree killing is killing and it does not bring back or anyone or undue the situation but I do not want people capable of murder and torture walking the earth until they snap again.

As I stated, we send boys off to war, yes even ill conceived and fake wars to die, what is the difference between that and killing a “guilty” criminal?  It both situations, people die so if have no death penalty then we can never go to war again either?????  America is built on wars?

It is the bible thumping conservatives that say killing during a time of war is ok, but killing a serial killer or convicted repeat rapist/murder is bad.  Go figure.

To deliberately kill another human being is MURDER.

And it doesn’t matter a damn who is doing the killing. State “approved” executions are MURDERS IN THE FIRST DEGREE. Nothing is gained by executions. Nothing. The wrong that has been committed cannot be undone or “righted.”

Any society that supports the death penalty loses it’s right to hold the right and sanctity of life as a founding principle. Any society that supports the death penalty is collectively guilty of MURDER.

Society thinks that executing someone is making them pay the “maximum” penalty for their crime. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are LOTS of things worse than death, including HOLDING SOMEONE ON DEATH ROW FOR 19 YEARS AND WAITING UNTIL 15 MINUTES BEFORE KILLING THEM TO STAY THE EXECUTION. That is TORTURE, plain and simple. America should be ashamed of itself.

One of the principles of the justice system - the principle that makes it a JUSTICE system and not a vengeance system - is that, when passing judgment, we don’t succumb to the same human weaknesses and passions as the people we are judging.  I imagine how I would feel if the person closest to me were killed, even tortured too…and that is not the me I would want in charge of someone else’s life.  I HOPE I would remember my values - not to mention theirs - but I would probably feel nothing but hatred, rage, grief and a lust for vengeance.  Which is why I should have A say…not THE say.

Furthermore, the justice system is run by people, not supremely intelligent, objective beings.  Even DNA evidence - which people too often accept as the be-all, end-all incontestable truth - is handled and processed by HUMANS, and consequently can be tampered with, mishandled or misinterpreted.  As long as a person’s fate rests in the hands of the occasionally biased, lazy, ignorant or just plain inept, a one-way ticket like execution has no business being on the table.

How come criminals are allowed to rape, pillage, plunder and murder in the most painful and creative ways possible, but the punishment needs to be painless, clean and serene?

How come the right to lifers who oppose the killing of guilty murderous rapists are willing to let young men and women die in Iraq as well as all the civilians casualties involved?

It is the bible thumpers of our country that are the core of this “political correctness.”

We in the USA are so politically correct that it makes me sick.

If you kill another human being and it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, then who cares how they die.  I say let the victim’s family decide the final punishment!