I didn’t hurt your feelings only your vanity.  Funny how you would forcefully sterilize anyone “deemed” an unfit parent, NO MATTER WHAT and at the same time try to portray me as mean-spirited.

Re:#110870 by Conservative Yankee on 11/01

“Anyone (man or woman, since you tend to read into what I have not written) who can bare (or father) children IS an adult. Our politically correct society tends to forget that elsewhere in our world people do things a bit different.”

*Sorry, you keep accusing me of something but maybe I’m not the one who needs to rethink the issue.  You say that I “tend to read into what you have not written”.  Hardly.  Good try.  As I said, I didn’t have a problem with you clarifing your position, but you NEVER did.  NOW you have, but CY, MEN do not BEAR children.

Then you go on to say that a 13-14 yr old is an adult?!....since they can either father or bear children.  And you were a foster parent!!!  My God I think you just qualified my position on foster parents in that statement alone.  But NO, that’s not enough for you.  You think people should be FORCEABLY STERILIZED if they unable to parent, NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON OR CIRCUMSTANCE!  You, the person who thinks that a 13-14 yr old is an ADULT! Maybe you better find out where that enforced sterilization line is forming because you belong in it.

On top of that you try to qualify that position with “Our politically correct society tends to forget that elsewhere in our world people do things a bit different.” Do you really THINK that “political correctness” is the reason 13-14 yr olds shouldn’t have children! 

“SO that you don’t have qualms about my previous post I’ll go back to writing for the “outraged” among us. I believe that anyone (It takes a male and a female) who brings a child into this world, and demonstrates an inability to raise it should be forcibly sterilized. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.  I’ve seen far too many unwanted children savaged by a non-caring system to countenance without remedy, more of the same.”

*Actually then, of course if I’m not reading into your words, you endorse forced sterilization for anyone deemed unable to raise their children.  No matter what the age, circumstance or reasons.  No Cy, that doesn’t make you a bigot.  It makes you a complete and utterly vicious, malicious ASSHOLE.

“And it might surprise you, BUT I find the MAN generally more irresponsible in this matter than the woman.  In my travels I’ve seen MANY MANY more than adequate single mothers raising children.  I’ve seen only a few fathers in this role (although since the states are cracking down on paying child support I expect to see more)

My tip to you (take it or leave it) is that through “outraged eyes” we tend to see more outrage, even when it isn’t there.”

* The reason for outrage is there.  It’s inexplicably THERE!  NO, it doesn’t surprise me that you find the man generally more irresponsible in this matter, in our society that’s a given.

I could understand if you took your position more selectively.  I wouldn’t agree, but I’d understand.  Incorporating All the issues and circumstances.  However, according to you that’s not what your saying.  For the record, the records kept on the parents and children in this system are fraught with inaccuracies, they’re worse than reports made by the CIA concerning war protestors.  Fifty percent of it is absolute fiction.

Re: voice of truth

I know the truth hurts, but try to a big boy.  Maybe you’ll even begin to associate with that title you’ve bestowed upon yourself.

“As for your attacks on poor Conservative Yankee, I would say that YOU are the bigot, based on your stereotype of men, you have still not explained how he is a racist, and you should probably go back to your women’s studies class...”

Conservative Yankee, by his own admission in other posts is NOT poor, nor is he/she unable to stand up for himself as evidenced by his other posts.  So you need’t fret.  As per your part in CHOOSING to agree with Conservative Yankee, deems you a bigot also.  I never said he was racist, HE ATTEMPTED TO ADD THAT TO THE EQUATION, not me (reread my original post).  A typical political tactic.  I did say he, as well as you, were bigots.  I stand by that.

Your quote:
“Now, to your other mommy-first crap.  I have never, nor would ever, “require” anyone to have a baby, and I never said as such.  Not sure where you gathered that thought from.”

I gathered it from the comments you made in the other posts, such as:

““women’s right to their body” is probably the most selfish, irresponsible chant that I have ever heard in my life.”

“Again, my point is that a purposeful abortion is probably the most selfish act possible.”

“I have been called selfish (among the nicer things) on this site because I want to keep more of the money I earn, but a woman who kills a growing human child because it will be an adverse consequence to her lifestyle is applauded.”

BTW, voice of truth when you posted this comment, “I know that I do as much to raise my 4 children as their mother.  We share the responsibility and the burden.” Is this what SHE would say, “off camera” so to speak, or just how YOU see yourself.  I also find it curious that you speak of your children as a “responsibility and a BURDEN”.  Shame on you.

In reference to this comment; “Outraged - You are nuts.” The fact that you are not logically or truthfully able to address facts, does not make ME nuts.  You spew rhetoric, not facts.

Outraged - You are nuts.  You imagine that I have no idea of conception, etc., because I made the statement of “ I do not know at what stage an embryo should be considered a life.” Exactly where does that comment elicit the ridiculous statements on your part?  Especially after you wrote this - -

“You are making the assumption that a pregnant woman is caring a CHILD from the moment that an egg is fertilized.  Investigate it.  This is not true.  At some point it does become a child, we don’t know when that is, scientifically.  However, it is NOT the moment the egg is fertilized.  At that point it is a POSSIBLE pregnancy.  That is all.”

I think you will see, if you have any functioning brain cells, that what you said is pretty much what I said.

Now, to your other mommy-first crap.  I have never, nor would ever, “require” anyone to have a baby, and I never said as such.  Not sure where you gathered that thought from.

Maybe you “hear” in your “woman-to-woman” chats that “He struts around like a rooster, talking about HIS kids, but who does ALL THE WORK.” Maybe the people you chat with should so something about their pathetic situation instead of sitting around and bitching to other women about their lot in life.  They probably sit around all day, eat bon-bons and watch Oprah and the Lifetime network!

I know that I do as much to raise my 4 children as their mother.  We share the responsibility and the burden.  That is what I refer to as help.  I should have enunciated it much more clearly for you earlier.  I can tell from your writing taht you do not have a good grasp of spelling or grammar, so I will try to be as clear as possible from here on out.  While I obviously could not actually birth the child, I’ve pretty much been an equal part in all other aspects (since my wife did not breast feed).  I did try to breast feed once, but I kept burning my nipples when I tried to boil them.

Finally, I will quantify, again since you obviously don’t have much reading comprehension, how I can state that abortion is an exceptionally selfish act.  When one makes any choice in life, that choice has a consequence.  Some are minor, some are much greater.  In most cases, sexual activity is about personal satisfaction (not to say in many cases it is not).  A distinct choice is made (again, in most cases) to engage in intercourse.  That action may lead to conception.  Left unmolested, there is a very good chance that a fertilized egg will grow into a child, and that child will be born into this world.  Are you following me here?  A newborn child brings with it a complete life-change and an immense amount of responsibility, a responsibility that many people do not want or can not shoulder.  An abortion is an easy way to absolve one of that life-changing event and responsibility.

Therefore, my thesis rests on the fact that a person made a conscious decision for self-gratification, did not like the unexpected outcome, so simply made a choice to evade it.  Unfortunately, that is at the expense of the potential child.

So you see, the person gets self-gratification in the form of sex, and neatly avoids any untidy consequences like responsibility, but at the expense of ending a potential life.  Now, I don’t know about you, but that sure sounds life a pretty selfish act to me.

As for your attacks on poor Conservative Yankee, I would say that YOU are the bigot, based on your stereotype of men, you have still not explained how he is a racist, and you should probably go back to your women’s studies class so you can all sit around and complain about men.

Re: #110638 by voice of truth on 10/31

“Now, to your posting.  I do not know at what stage an embryo should be considered a life.  I know that many embryos do not become viable.  I also know that direct intervention (be it the morning after pill, surgical procedure, etc.) does not allow nature to decide that or not.  Again, my point is that a purposeful abortion is probably the most selfish act possible.”

Since you are unaware of the workings of conception and pregnancy you shouldn’t make broad statements.  Especially those claiming a supposed morality, as in “the most selfish act possible”.  Qualify that.

There are a myriad of reasons to have a child and to NOT have a child. Maybe she (the girl you referred to in you original post) had reasons NOT to have a child she had not intended to have.  You also said it was your “responsibility” to “help” raise that child had she proceeded with the pregnancy.  If she chose NOT to have the child and you “required” her to do it to satisfy YOUR morality, then it would have been TOTALLY your responsibility to raise that child.  Not “help” her to do it.

Funny.... but I’ve never heard this comment or anything to this effect from a woman IN MY LIFE: “The dad does so much for our child that I just “help” him to raise it.” I CAN qualify the opposite in terms of “woman to woman” conversations. I can also elaborate.  What you tend to hear is, “He struts around like a rooster, talking about HIS kids, but who does ALL THE WORK.  Personally, I include pregnancy and childbirth in this, irregardless of the fact that men can’t get pregnant or give birth.  Because so often men take this adventure for granted too.

I found it disheartening to say the least, that you have 4 children and don’t appear to know much, by your own admission, about early pregnancy, conception or abortion.  They do have books on the topic......really.

I realize there MUST be men out there who DON’T have this attitude, but just the same, I for one haven’t witnessed it.

You also said, “Take your friend.  Her birth mother probably thought she was doing what was best for the child.  Clearly it didn’t work out that way, but would you rather she never got a chance to live?  Just a thought.”

I can agree with the first sentence but the rest is illogical.  It is not for me to say whether her mother should or shouldn’t have had this child.  Or that her (my friend) life was “worth it” or not.  What propensity of self righteousness would give me that?  That’s like saying, you should have another child so it has the “chance to live”.  Because what if you don’t give that child that you COULD HAVE a “chance to live”.  That is nonsensical.  (for the record the catholic religious leaders did ENDORSE that logic back when, claiming it was against God to prevent pregnancy. ie. birth control) Which also relates to your “let nature take it’s course” ideology.

You are making the assumption that a pregnant woman is caring a CHILD from the moment that an egg is fertilized.  Investigate it.  This is not true.  At some point it does become a child, we don’t know when that is, scientifically.  However, it is NOT the moment the egg is fertilized.  At that point it is a POSSIBLE pregnancy.  That is all.  The “morning after pill” does not kill a child, it does prevent a POSSIBLE pregnancy from occurring.  If it’s easier....think of it as abstinence after the fact.  You are only stopping a PREGNANCY which may or MAY NOT occur.

Re: #110669 by Conservative Yankee on 10/31

“Finally please cut and past some passage I wrote from which you get the idea I am bigoted or racist?”

This is one from your post; #110467 by Conservative Yankee on 10/30

“It is my belief that once a adult (anyone of child baring age) has demonstrated an inability to parent children, they should be forcibly sterilized.”

Your comment “(anyone of child bearing age)” automatically refers to women since men do not bear children.  In this same sentence you say that “they” should be forcibly sterilized, without any regard for circumstance.  I would call that a “self righteous bigot” as I did.  Your silence regarding MEN in the equation CAME IN LOUD AND CLEAR.

Also, when responding to my post, where I had accused you of putting the blame on those “horrible women”....you DIDN’T refute or clarify it.  In fact, from what I could ascertain you had NO ISSUE with the fact that men were not included.  Why not?

Webster’s New World Dictionary;
BIGOT: a person who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc.

Hopefully the above will fulfill this request.
“If you are going to have a person change their evil ways, that person must know (at minimum) what they are doing wrong.”

You also said,
“Hope you’re seeing someone about that anger issue.”

Finally, I don’t possess “that anger issue” you claim I have.  When someone makes bigoted comments, it makes me angry.  That’s a good thing.  Yes, it’s obvious you’re trying to make the implication it’s bad, however I feel most would side with me, and acknowledge that comments such as yours SHOULD make a person angry.  To be more specific, I’m Outraged.

BTW, what really flipped me out was when you called “anyone of child bearing age” an ADULT.  It’s possible that girls as young as 10 COULD bear children.  While the majority become able to bear children somewhere around 13-14 yrs. of age, I still wouldn’t consider them an ADULT.  Hence the reason I accused you of being ill-informed.

outraged, you really need to calm down.  Yes, I am a man, and the father of 4 children.  I was almost the father of a 5th, much earlier in life, but the woman chose an abortion.  I certainly would have helped raise that child just as well as I have helped raise the four I currently have.  It was my responsibility, though I didn’t have a choice.

Now, to your posting.  I do not know at what stage an embryo should be considered a life.  I know that many embryos do not become viable.  I also know that direct intervention (be it the morning after pill, surgical procedure, etc.) does not allow nature to decide that or not.  Again, my point is that a purposeful abortion is probably the most selfish act possible.

Take your friend.  Her birth mother probably thought she was doing what was best for the child.  Clearly it didn’t work out that way, but would you rather she never got a chance to live?  Just a thought.

Re: #110467 by Conservative Yankee on 10/30

Re: #110513 by voice of truth on 10/30

Let me guess...you’re both men or you can’t bear children.  These are the only people I’ve ever encountered who are as pious regarding their own supposed superiority over “those” women.

ALL, in fact every single foster child I knew growing up detested their foster parents.  A close family friend grew up in foster homes.  She never had a kind word about any of them, NOT ONE. She was only a child and had to deal with unfairness/meaness so profound it still is emotionally draining to hear.  I have heard the story over and over again from others also, the good, caring, wonderful foster parents caring for the “unwanted” child.

All to often foster parents embellish their “good works”.  They parade around accepting undeserved praise and recognition.  My friend is now an adult, has raised two children of her own and has found her birth mother.  This “horrible” birth mother which the two of you speak so obnoxiously about, was overjoyed to be reunited with her and her brother.

It’s possible Conservative Yankee, that you could have been better than others but I personally won’t hold my breath.  From things you’ve said while commenting on this article as well as others on TD, I certainly would not have wanted to grow up in your household.  You are bigoted on many topics and ill informed on so many more that I shutter to think what life would have been like.  The mere fact that you bring up “your foster parent status” and qualify it with the 100 you “helped” and the 6 you adopted just makes my skin crawl.  Of course, you also “qualified” it with “how much more they have given you”.  It’s classic foster parent rhetoric.
When am I supposed to give you the ooohs and ahhh’s?

This next line is FROM ME for every adult who’s ever had to endure foster care as a child and for every child who’s in it.

GO TO HELL.

-------
Voice of truth,

As to your “growing child” at what point do these cells become a child?  Is it at fertilization?  Are you aware that a FERTILIZED EGG in the human animal has to travel through the fallopian tube to the uterus and then implant itself there, many don’t make it.  Are these abortions?  What about the “morning after pill”?  Is that abortion in your mind?

In your post you said, “I have been called selfish (among the nicer things) on this site” Really… I guess I “have to agree” with the majority on this one.

You are both self righteous bigots.

GO TO HELL.

Again, I have to agree with C.Y. (even if he is a Yankee Fan).

The whole “women’s right to their body” is probably the most selfish, irresponsible chant that I have ever heard in my life.  For every action we make, there is a responsibility that goes along with it.  Abortion has got to be the most anti-personal responsibility action ever created.

I am not going to argue about abortion per se, I am not a religious nut, I don’t care if you have sex.  In fact, I don’t care what you do, so long as it is legal and you take responsibility for its consequences.

I find if extremely ironic that I have been called selfish (among the nicer things) on this site because I want to keep more of the money I earn, but a woman who kills a growing human child because it will be an adverse consequence to her lifestyle is applauded.

What a friggin joke the left is.

I would say this study is very flawed as it compares Europe with the USA. Inpart if a young women becomes pregnant in Europe her medical,childcare.education through college is paid for as is her housing and a monthly stipend.
If it were not for abortion in the USA that 14,000 would go up at least 600% you take the abortion out of the equation and there would be far more babies put up for adoption because it’s a cold hard fact that American couples want a white newborn over a child who might have problems with regard to drugs or fetal alcohol syndrome.I know this first hand as I worked with abused children.Oh I am very pro choice but it’s not an easy one.

i would like to say if anyone notice how many woman who are apart of the pro0life movement have had numerous abortions. Did any of them decided to give up their babies no instead they aborted. Which goes to show you the hypocracy that they have. It is true all they want you to do is not to have sex.

Farmertx, I agree with you,but it’s those idiots in politics and their church crazies who feel it is THEIR right to decide for the woman what she is allowed to do with her body.
Back in the 70’s there was a political cartoon on the editorial page of the newspaper-when we still got real news-of a womans body and across the reproductive area of the body was a banner stating"property of the United States Goverment”. So it still hasn’t changed that much.Only more vocal and violent now.Yet where are all these people to adopt the babies out there right now?
After all if those in power feel that women are not smart enough to decide for themselves what is right for them, how can they even think that those same women they deem to stupid to decide whether to have an abortion or not are smart enough to raise that child.

It’s time to return a persons right to choose what is right for them when it comes to their own personal life.No more letting everyone else have more powers over another persons life than the one living it.

It is a grown woman’s choice, assuming she is unmarried. If underage, the parent’s have the say.

In no way should the Federal Government get into this. It would be the same as a law requiring every married couple to produce 3 children and no more.

Look at the girls who have babies...and then dump them out of fear. Even in Texas, where, by law, a newborn can be dropped off at a fire station or a hospital with no questions asked, we still read of newborn’s being left to die.

In a perfect world, things like this wouldn’t happen. But we have to deal with the real world. There are many more pressing problems that politician’s need to be addressing. What a grown woman does with her body isn’t the Government’s business.