I don’t see how not supporting a business is an “aggressive” action, nor is it “sensational”.  Will they care?  Not until many people do the same.  Members equal dollars and that, in my opinion, is what most churches care most about.  Educate them by all means, but do not continue to support them financially until they change their behavior.

To suggest people continue to support organizations that discriminate against others is to perpetuate, participate in and encourage the continuation of that discrimination.

It’s not the Fred Phelps’ of this world I worry about.  His own extremism has made him a laughing-stock to most rational people.  It’s those groups that make a big noise about love and inclusion but whisper “but not if you’re a fag” that really disturb me.  To many people ignore those whispers.  For me that negates any claim of love and inclusion.

But, Flaming Lib… “We need to shun organizations that practice discrimination and stop supporting them financially.”...

Do you think they’d care? Would you care if someone you didn’t like decided to not have anything to do with you?

Besides… shunning them is exactly what they’re doing to gays and lesbians. The reasons really don’t matter, it’s the actions that count.

I know exactly how you feel… sometimes I’d like to take “sensational” action against groups like that led by one of the world’s most odious morons - the “Rev” Phelphs, BUT how is using aggression against them going to solve anything?

Somehow the “discriminated against” have to educate the “discriminators” as to all the reasons why their attitudes are not helpful on this planet. I sure wish the schools, if they did nothing else, would drum into every child’s head that if he/she wants their rights respected they MUST respect those of others.

Even the religious schools should understand the “Golden Rule” don’t you think?

What baffles me a bit is why one would want to have the funeral in a church that condemns the deceased person to an eternity in Hell.

Like it or not, churches have the right to discriminate against people, and this one obviously exercizes that right.  So why give them business?  Choose a church which is inclusive (read: gay friendly).  We need to shun organizations that practice discrimination and stop supporting them financially.

#94715 by Cathy on 8/13 at 7:25 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Is my gaydar off, or does the pastor of that church look ...oh, nevermind

Nope (my apologies to RAE) it’s working

Michael, in all fairness, I do have to give Texas a break.  There’s a lot to love about Texas, and Ohio is definitely no bastion of progressive thought these days, if it ever was.  Can’t look down on Texas when The World Harvest Church and PASTOR ROD are in your own backyard….ech.

Point taken.

When some “Christians” say to you , “We love you”.
You better grab your backside and run because you are about to get screwed.

Too many use the word like a knife.

What I find exceedingly hillarious about this is that those “Christians” professing to believe 100% in the words of God as layed down by man in the “Holy” bible must someday admit they ignored much of Gods words and they will suffer the consequences spelled out in that Holy Script.

#94510 by RAE on 8/13 at 7:58 am
•  “….above all, they do whatever they can to prejudice everyone else in society against me.”…

It’s ALL sickening, but this is the worst. And, more than anything else, we can count on the “Church” to instill this prejudice as early and as thoroughly as they possibly can, without ever giving the sheeple a chance to figure anything out for themselves. It’s called the program for creating ignorance, and… “Ignorance is the most violent element of society”. Emma Goldman.

That’s what we can generally count on the Church for. (I’ve been slightly more fortunate in my dealings with them, but that doesn’t seem to be the case in most parts of the Christian world).

•  “….It’s all a fantasy - an illusion, of course - but then, that’s what Churches do BEST - they are STEEP(LED) in FANTASY.”…

And, this is far more a problem now, than it ever used to be. Seriously. It’s become this way in the past decade, because I swear, it has not always been this bad. But the Church, is now the Corporations, and so this FANTASY has been so thoroughly saturated through our society in these years. It’s like the people who were moderately and sanely “religious”, just got totally nuts with this stuff. And, the media has helped, and of course the politics of the past decade or more have added to it as well.

In other words, I have been around devoutly religious people all of my life, but they didn’t start turning crazy until they got caught up in this CULT, and the cult started using this crazy fantasy, or manufactured alternative realities, to dictate government policy. Or, when the Church and the Government became the same. THAT is the danger that has become relatively new.

•  …”My best guess is that since Christ isn’t around to act as “party whip” these self-appointed “followers” are free to make up their own “rules of the game” and get to stray as far from the “teachings” as they wish. Since they’ve tampered with the “rule book” for two millennia no one even knows what the original “rules” were!”..

Therein lies the problem. Nobody ever knew what the original “rules” were to begin with, because we don’t even know who wrote them. I know I wasn’t there, and so I had no input in the decision.
Great post. I’m sending it to the Church Corporations in Texas. I doubt they’ll be willing to discuss these issues, (like the FANTASY of the whole enterprise) at their next Bible study, but they should at least be able to give this some thought on their own.

.

In #94368, desertdude asked, in part “If the Church is nothing to you why writea note at all?”

Here’s my answer, dude:

Because the church is not only writing notes about ME that are not true or reasonably justified, many of them are actively campaigning to ensure my civil rights are nullified, my choices in my society are limited to as few as possible, and, above all, they do whatever they can to prejudice everyone else in society against me.

Now why, you might ask, would organizations based on a philosophy of love and inclusion and community and growth, whose leader (Christ if you’ve forgotten) NEVER, EVER either condoned, participated in or even mentioned such NASTY, UNFAIR, and UNTRUE attitudes and activities?

No. I don’t know either. My best guess is that since Christ isn’t around to act as “party whip” these self-appointed “followers” are free to make up their own “rules of the game” and get to stray as far from the “teachings” as they wish. Since they’ve tampered with the “rule book” for two millennia no one even knows what the original “rules” were!

The further these “believers” become separated from their foundations, the more internally frightened they become - the less certain they are that what they believe has any basis in fact. And as everyone knows, a frightened human being is likely THE most irrational and dangerous animal on the planet.

From there, it’s a short hop for them to strike out at minorities and others they perceive as easy targets. This, as it does with any bully, makes them feel better, stronger, in control. It’s all a fantasy - an illusion, of course - but then, that’s what Churches do BEST - they are STEEP(LED) in FANTASY.

Just get yourself a big barn of a building to ensure the occupants feel small and powerless, have the sunshine stream through kalaidescopic windows, play beautiful music and read guilt-generating but spiritually uplifting pap, and PRESTO! you’ve got yourself a MONEY-MAKING CULT. Keep at it for centures, ensnaring vulnerable young children and other mentally and emotionally immature creatures in your web of deceit, and like magic you have a base of MILLIONS you can play any political way you wish. What a trip!

#94319 by RAE on 8/12 at 3:18 pm

•  That’s why it’s such RIDICULOUS NONSENSE when some fatuous ignoramus announces that “homosexuality is a CHOICE.” The moment you hear that, folks, you KNOW that person hasn’t a clue what they’re talking about. You can safely ignore everything that follows.

RAE,

Great post, (the entire thing) but I especially appreciated this part. I like having these “shortcut” ways to figure things out, that I might otherwise waste even a moment of time considering.

It reminds me though, of a conversation I had with a gay co-worker many years ago, as he tried to explain to me that being gay was the same as being black, and gay folks suffered all of the same discriminations that African Americans did, and that gays didn’t “choose” to be gay anymore than black folks “chose” to be black.

Well!! The face of it didn’t sit well with me, (I admit) if only because I don’t find it to be “different” or “abnormal” to be black, and it’s not like black folks can be in the closet, (well, some maybe) or otherwise choose to be white instead.

Still, I got his point. It wasn’t something he “decided”, like oh, I think I’ll be gay or lesbian. That should piss everybody off.

Anyway, thanks for the tip. If I ever hear anybody say something like this again, I’ll know they’re full of shit. Meantime though, I DO like his idea of just LEAVING Iraq, even if it means leaving all of the equipment behind.

Re: #94374 by Unapologetic Liberal on 8/12

My sentiments exactly!  Good Post!

Oh, sure this church was within its rights to cancel the funeral, but the cheesy way it was accomplished is a shameful testament, never mind the foolish dogma they hide behind.  Their throwing money at the family merely adds insult to injury.

As an almost life-long atheist this may sound strange, but I believe the church, in its own warped way, was right.  It is, regardless of how hypocritical it sounds, a ‘private’ organization and as such is entitled to enforce its laws on its members.  If they believe homosexuality is wrong and that holding a funeral service would somehow “condone” homosexuality then it stands to reason (their reason) that they shouldn’t hold the funeral service there.

That said, when Jesus hung out at the tax collector Matthew’s house (along with all the other ‘gentile’ reprobate that would have been there - and don’t get all worked up about this statement - its accurate in a historical context) does this mean he condoned the behaviour of Matthew and his crew? 

I would imagine he didn’t, but it didn’t stop Jesus from doing the right thing.  And THAT my dear commentators is where this church went wrong.  They simply failed to do the right thing.

But as others have said; jeez, it’s Texas.  Go freakin’ figure.  Anyplace that could give us Bush Jr. must be a shithole.

DesertDude - If the church would confine its ignorance, oppression and violence to its own subscribers (for lack of a better word), I would be glad to leave them alone, in the spirit of “live and let live.”

However, since they insist on forcing their views on me via their political behavior, they’d better be prepared to get it back in spades.  Sorry, bigots…step outside the moron circle, and you’re fair game.

I think you are all protesting to much. You are slamming the Church for being hypocrites, but that is exactly what you all are. You hate the Church and you call it fake, but you sure get rilled up. I can only think you are mad that the Curch condems you for your sin. If the Church is nothing to you why writea note at all? You are doing what the illegals are doing in this country. They tell Amaerica this is the way your Immigration policy should be run. All of you are telling the Church what to do and you don’t even attend Church. Lot’s of Gall is All.

Aw, damn, purplewolf, you were doing fine until you dropped off the deep end with “...I believe they are born that way and if you lined up 100 men I could pick out with accuracy 95% of those who were gay,some men go both ways and are harder to tell.”

That is a complete crock.

I’ve been gay all my life and known thousands of gay men and I CAN’T IDENTIFY A GAY MAN with any more than a statistical 50% accuracy UNLESS… he wants me to know, or, he has (deliberately or unconsciously) developed into one of the exaggerated stereotypes stage comics use to get a laugh.

Most gay men and women learn very early how to blend in with the going “norms” (too many to list here) to AVOID being ID’d by potential gay-bashers or others in a position to negatively affect their housing, employment or social standing.

To be forced to live your life constantly on the defensive, on the alert, puts great stress on a person both physically and psychologically. That’s why it’s such RIDICULOUS NONSENSE when some fatuous ignoramus announces that “homosexuality is a CHOICE.” The moment you hear that, folks, you KNOW that person hasn’t a clue what they’re talking about. You can safely ignore everything that follows.

To all gay readers still in the closet: COME OUT. You’ll drop the greatest load of stress from your life and UNLOAD all your false friends - the ones who can only love you the way THEY want you to be. Even some parents or siblings can’t “handle the truth.” Let that be THEIR LOSS because it is. You have nothing to be ashamed of - nothing to hide from. You didn’t choose to be who you are any more than they did. If they’re ashamed, LET THEM BE. It says a lot more about them than it does about you.

As the guy said… just on the other side of FEAR is FREEDOM. Find a way to get to it. The truth will SET YOU FREE (but first it may hurt a bit!)

How narrowminded the church is.If God hated homosexuals so much,and He all knowing of everything past,present,and future,had knowledge(something he didn’t want man and woman to have, having forbid them to eat from the tree of knowledge, keep them ignorant and dumbed down)that this person was born to be gay, why did He allow this person to be born? Over 80 different species of animals(yes, humans are animals)practice homosexual behaviour.Should we destroy all those species of animals that practice homosexuality?

Did Jesus ever hug another man or show love toward his fellow male mortals? If so,did that make him a homosexual.According to the bible He spent most of his time in the company of men now didn’t He.That would be a sure sign he was gay in today’s narrowminded “Christians” minds and would say that there was more than enough evidence for them to banish him,or worse.Didn’t he also say “to love one another”?

These same people who believe that this book is the word of God and it’s true because God so and God doesn’t lie,even though it that has been: translated, altered,deleted many passage,changed due to the fact a word doesn’t exist in another cultures language when translated, or changed due to personal reasons of the translator,has often been found teaching the opposite teaching of an older version due to translation changes and continues to teach lies when it knows it is a lie,takes many of it’s stories from far older cultures and used them as their own,encourages violence against anyone who is “different” from you or from another town or whatever illogical reason God deems important to destroy people at the time,also God must believe in incest a lot as after the flood there were only 4 sets of adults to repopulate the earth and five of the eight people were related to each other be it brother or parent. A lot of inbreeding going on there.To blindly follow a religion based on hatred toward your fellow man in so many instances in the Old Testament is not something one should be proud of. And to those who follow the New Testament, are you really practicing what you preach?
Most of the men I have known in my lifetime(not in the biblical sense)are of the gay persuasion. I believe they are born that way and if you lined up 100 men I could pick out with accuracy 95% of those who were gay,some men go both ways and are harder to tell. Many of these men who are condemned by the church and Christians,were born into this and their mothers knew by the time the child was 2-3 and were well aware of it.And no they were not raised in the wimpy father figure,dominating mother scenerio that is often portrayed.Why if God is so loving and knows everything before hand would he allow these people to be born into a life of hatred by their fellow man,is this some kind of sick sadistic joke on Gods part? And no I am not male nor gay, women of my age group have something I have heard called “gaydar”. We know by looking, even when others haven’t a clue.

It is a shame that in this day and age that the church is so busy trying to breed hatred of other people and control over another group of people instead of bring people together for the good of all they have further divided each other into little subgroups.The Christian motto I have seen in practice most of my life is “If they are different than you it is okay to lie about them,hurt them,or even kill them,as long as you do it in the name of God,it will be justified”. So no matter what you do, you can be guilt free, the Bible tells you so. Not.

The church is in Texas,where they grow more and dumber bigots.It is no surprise. May their God forgive them in their misguided hatred.

Apparently, Cecil Sinclair didn’t include the megachurch in his will.  And you can’t extort money from a dead man.

Cecil Wright risked his life to protect the liberty of those back home…and those back home have now exercised their liberty to shun him, and pronounce his life unfit to commemorate in their precious (sin-FREE, I’m SURE) church.

Days like this, I wish I DID believe in hell, because we need a place for people like this.

To mn54 (an unregistered anonymous contributor)...

If you say so then I acknowledge that you, as a “believer” feel “insulted” by my comments. I didn’t intend to insult you although I admit my profound contempt for the mindless attitudes held by Bible-thumping believers sometimes gets the better of me. Your feelings are your business and under your control. I take no responsibility for your feelings nor do I apologize for eliciting them. You generate them - you own them. Enjoy.

Your bible is NOT accepted as “authority” by any reasonable legal system or thinking person on the planet. It’s a great collection of stories - some complete nonsense - some with a point. Yes, I’ve read it. I wonder how many other little points from Leviticus you cherry pick to use for your little discriminations? Better check your shirt and hope to hell it doesn’t contain more than ONE material otherwise you’ll be stoned to death! That kind of crap is believed by MORONS.

I have learned over the decades that to try to reason with a “believer” is a complete waste of time. The churches are private clubs (collections of these “believers” who can’t even agree amongst themselves what to believe) and as private organizations they have every right to discriminate and parade their ignorance and bigotry and fantasies for all the world to “despise.”

And we, who do value reason and logic and evidence as the basis for formulating opinion and beliefs certainly have an equal right to point at your “emperors” and declare them to be without clothes. FANTASY is FANTASY no matter how many churches you build, bells you ring, organs you grind or hours you spend on your knees wishing it to be true will not make it so.

The tragedy is that there are enough of you to actually coerce, recruit, brainwash and convince vulnerable children that what you believe is actually true. There should be a law against that kind of child abuse.

never fear, ted haggard is here! to the rescue Ted! go and straighten up that nonsense, for your own edification. ted can empathize. Ted knows all humans have value.  ted can champion this one if he had a inkling of courage.

#94092 by John on 8/11 at 6:13 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

And what sin would that be?
You are part of the problem if you are going to say crap like “hate the sin” farmertx.

John
Get someone to explain rhetorical question to you. This was about the Church, not my beliefs.

God must hated texas because he so damn many baptists there—Dan Jenkins, author of semi-tough.

The old testament, the bastion of a genocidal psycopathic god, also command death more those that mix fabrics, eat shellfish, unruly children, etc. But Jesus, who brought a new convenant, never said a word about homosexuality, family planning or feminism. The religious rightwing nuts are not Christians, but rather are christianist, those who use religion for their own nefarious purposes.  The religious right is not Christian because their message is one of hate, not the love, compassion and forgivness of Jesus.  The religious right are redneck bigots spawned from the ignorant and hateful dixiecrats who a generation ago concentrated their hatred on blacks, Catholics, and Jews.  The redneck bigotted dixiecrats, followers of scum like falwell, dobson, robertson, haggard, swaggart, bakker, and osteen are vermin. Does this convey how I really think?
God bless this poor fallen veteran, and condemn these evil haters who mock the teachings of Jesus.

Cecil Sinclair: That church, they didn’t let me in.
Jesus: Funny, they didn’t let me in either.

“The church’s pastor, the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men “engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing.””

Isn’t that AWFUL… men “engaging in clear affection…”

But the church sure would have put on a good send off for Cecil Sinclair if that video had footage of him in full combat regalia throwing a grenade to make mincemeat of a half dozen other troops. It’s quite acceptable (to the church) for a man to MURDER and MAIM, but an unforgivable sin to get caught KISSING.

Have you ever read such utter nonsense! What IDIOTS these churches are. What insufferably screwed up IDIOTS.

Bigotry of religion needs to be consistent, to maintain its investment in ignorance, thank you Christopher Hitchens

My condolences to this family.

As for the church and the State of Texas ... I wish them the karma they deserve. They’ll get it.

I’ll point out that this is a typical Texas attitude these days, and has been for awhile. (I recall when it was not!) Home of the Twig and others of his administration, and supported by those who support them. Nuts don’t far fall.

I noted this comment in the story:

“We did decline to host the service — not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle,” Simons told The Associated Press. “Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it — yes, we would have declined then. It’s not that we didn’t love the family.”

This reflects a principle all right. It’s the PRINCIPLE of HATRED and DISCRIMINATION.

How unfortunate that the so-called Christians have made up so much as they went along, and are so far from the teachings.

Disgusting.

My condolences to the Wrights on their loss.

This is so depressing.

Instead of absorbing knowledge and enlightenment these ignorant, frightened, hypocritical, churchy Luddites have all “shields up” to PREVENT any learning or changes to enter their tiny little lives.

What power of microscope would you need to even FIND a mind so small that is afraid of a DEAD gay man? Can you even imagine Jesus’s reaction if He had encountered such profoundly objectionable attitudes towards a fellow human being?

These church cretins should be banned from the human gene pool… they’re PURE BIGOTTED POLLUTION.

Remember when Churches used to love the sinner while hating the sin? Guess that has gone the way of common sense in politicians.
Wonder if the brother was fired as a precaution also?
It would be a real hoot if the family found some pics of Cecil and the Pastor.
It’s happened before. Many times.