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A Question of Values

A Question of Values

By Morris Berman
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Ear to the Ground

Baghdad Raid Kills 32, Sparks Protests

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Posted on Aug 8, 2007
sadr city
AP Photo / Karim Kadim

Mourners march in Baghdad’s Sadr City with coffins Wednesday following the U.S.-led ground attack and airstrike aimed at a suspected militant cell.

An overnight attack carried out by American and Iraqi forces against an alleged militant cell killed 32 people in Sadr City, U.S. military sources reported Wednesday.  The raid targeted members of the Mahdi Army militia believed to be smuggling weapons and working in tandem with Iranian militants against U.S. forces, but other sources claimed that women and children numbered among the dead.


BBC:

A military spokesman said there had been women and children in the area during the raid, but denied any had died.

Later, men and young boys were seen weeping over coffins outside a nearby hospital and hundreds of residents marched through Sadr City in protest against the raid.

It came on the eve of a major Shia religious festival in the capital which is expected to draw hundreds of thousands of pilgrims.

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By Elder Earl, August 10, 2007 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

cyrena

ROTFL…...I see you have been educated beyond your intelligence.  The ONLY TWO RULEs in war are One, people are going to die and two, do what you can to stay alive.  And that sums it up from all us’en rennecks…LOL!

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By cyrena, August 10, 2007 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

VERY Elder Earl,

I don’t speak or writein “presumptions”, and something tells me that I know a whole lot more than you do about the REALITIES of war.

I’m DEFINITELY more informed than you are on the LAWS of war, because there is quite an extensive list of them being broken as we writeback and forth, while you try to chase flies from the cobb webs of your rusty mind.

So, open that screen door, go out and breath in some of that good redneck air, and come back after you’ve had a chance to get those morning tremors under control.

See ya then.

Report this

By Elder Earl, August 10, 2007 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

#93235 by cyrena on 8/08 at 6:12 pm
(733 comments total)

So this is now a daily thing, to just bomb civilians from the air. Routine. They always claim to be getting “militants” and the “militants” always turn out to be civilians, including women and children. And, since the U.S. has carried out SO MANY of these strikes since the “surge” WE know, that THEY know, (the commanders on the ground) that they are targeting civilians. If they can’t wall them in, they bomb them from the air.

And, on the eve of a major pilgrimage, they just get that many more. Could that be intentional? I used to think it was just the ignorance and stupidity of it all…attempting to take over a nation where they knew NOTHING about the culture/traditions, and cared even less. So, why would they bother to try to acknowledge such occasions, in determining their “operations”.  But now, it sounds like they were doing exactly that. The pilgrimage just gives them a chance to kill even larger numbers with the same strikes.
_____________________________________________________

I think you need to check for flies based on your presumations of war.

Report this

By cyrena, August 10, 2007 at 7:50 am Link to this comment

#93658 by Elder Earl on 8/10 at 6:06 am

Like I said Elder,

I hope it never happens to me. So far, I manage to keep my filters well maintained.

I agree with the Teddy Roosevely quote though.

At the same time, I doubt your definition of “liberal” is the same as mine, so I won’t argue what they tend to do, or how they tend to think.

I know how I think. And so far, I’ve avoided the damage from those pesky flies that you’ve had to contend with.

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By Elder Earl, August 10, 2007 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

cyrena,

Yes, and it took some time to clean them all out.  Now I just open the door and leave the screen door closed.

Liberals have the tendencies to think without moral restraint.

Teddy Roosevelt said, “To educate a man in mind and not morals is to educate a menace to society.”

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By cyrena, August 10, 2007 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

#93652 by Elder Earl on 8/10 at 5:24 am
cyrena, here is a bit of wisdom to those who have left the door open to long in their open-mindness.

They forgot to close the screen door thus allowing the flys to come in.

=========================

Well Elder,

Sounds like you know this from personal experience. That’s where most “wisdom” comes from.

Thanks for the warning. I won’t let it happen to me.

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By Elder Earl, August 10, 2007 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

cyrena statement
Not only that, my middle name should be “open-minded” just because it’s my nature as well as my professional training/experience to be. I have been trained to be “open-minded”, as it is the foundation of any academic worldview. We are “trained” to see the world through the eyes of others. And, I see yours as a very retarded view, but you’re certainly not the only one.

_____________________________________________________
cyrena, here is a bit of wisdom to those who have left the door open to long in their open-mindness.

They forgot to close the screen door thus allowing the flys to come in.

Report this

By cyrena, August 9, 2007 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

#93509 by dantinak on 8/09 at 1:36 pm

Come on and be more open minded, don’t let hate for Bush cloud everything.  When you do, no one listens to you.

Dantinak,

Your posts are very revealing, in and of themselves. Excellent fodder for an observant person with a bit of wisdom.

First, like all other propagandists, you keep repeating yourself, and saying the same stuff over and over again. And, it never has any connection to the context or substance of the article that we’re even talking about. i.e., this piece has to do with yet another raid/attack on innocent civilians in Iraq. It has nothing to do with the Mob’s regime, at least not on it’s fact, so all of your complaints about me allegedly hating the Mob, don’t have place on this thread.

Then, oddly enough, you single ME out, even though this web site, (which is the only one I even make comments to on a regular basis) is FULL of hate mongers who direct hate at anything they can pervert in their own demented minds.

So, all of this is very “revealing”, in explaining who YOU are, and what your OWN agenda is. Curious that you would tell me, (twice now) that “no one listens to me”. Apparently, that is your overwhelming concern; the fact that there ARE in fact those out there, (many) who DO in fact take notice of my comments, as well as the comments of others who are seeking to separate the truth from the propaganda that has been planted in your brain by those who would have us ALL continue to remain stupid, and in the dark.


Not only that, my middle name should be “open-minded” just because it’s my nature as well as my professional training/experience to be. I have been trained to be “open-minded”, as it is the foundation of any academic worldview. We are “trained” to see the world through the eyes of others. And, I see yours as a very retarded view, but you’re certainly not the only one.

Still, it seems to concern you greatly, that there are others out there, who might finally be coming to their senses, (despite over 7 years of Cabal controlled media) thanks to web sites like truthdig, and the many others that have come about, as a result of the failure of our Fourth Estate.

Keep in mind Dinantak, that contrary to what you wish to believe in your own desperation to continue to justify the destruction of humanity, and the disregard for ALL rule of law, domestic and international, the TRUTH is still –WHAT IT IS - and these are things that you cannot deny, nor can your favorite pundits. (by the way, I had already read the Pollock article when he first printed it) .

Reasonable people who come to this site (because it IS an independent and alternative source of news that we all need) will read what they read, and will form their own conclusions, and will benefit from what there is here. And, that’s the beauty of it. REASONABLE people with “open minds” will take from these posts, whatever information is available, and make their own “discoveries” after evaluating the worth of them – on their own. I am ONE person, and what I writehere, will not “influence” anyone who doesn’t wish to be “influenced”.

That does however, appear to be your overwhelming fear…that our fellow citizens will in fact follow the leads to the truth, (which is finally happening) and that pretty much upends this long standing experiment of the Big Lies that have been perpetrated against us for all of these years now. Yes, America is finally waking up, and nothing can stop that. Not even your pathetic jabs at me on an internet board.

So, if nobody is listening to me, (as you continually point out) then you have no worries, eh? All are free to ignore anything I post, just as I will certainly do with anything that you post in the future.

EDUCATE yourself. You will need this education for your own future survival.

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By Frosted Flake, August 9, 2007 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

Elder Earl did not engage my point. He merely pretended to. And is now pretending to be smart, too. We need not feel left out of this game, we can all pretend I was stung by his insult.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, ==> “Ouch.”

I trust the example Earl presents makes my point clearer to the larger audience.
Frosted Flake

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By Elder Earl, August 9, 2007 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

Frosted Flake,

Your presumption is readily apparent.  It inhibits impartial judgment on your part due to limited understanding.  Men, woman, and children will always die in an armed conflict.  Duh! 

The way a conflict ends is in compromise or death.  Ethier way the conflict ends.

Report this

By dantinak, August 9, 2007 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena,

You are so full of hate for anything Bush you just don’t get it.  Here follow this link to the NY Times and you will see an editorial that came out just a couple weeks ago from Pollack who said the surge is working.  Don’t just read you hate websites, educate yourself and read all websites. What this shows is that you only read what you want to agree with and not the whole story, or you would have included this website with all the others you sent.  Come on and be more open minded, don’t let hate for Bush cloud everything.  When you do, no one listens to you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html?ex=1186804800&en=497b60ad7c2a412f&ei=5070

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By Frosted Flake, August 9, 2007 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

Elder Earl :
“At any given moment, civilians could have simple gave up Mahdi Army militia by telling the proper authorities…”

The presumption implicit is… that the dead deserved it. It is clear Elder Earl already believes what the story above doubts, specificly, that the dead deserved it. Elder Earl believes the dead terrorists. He has no reason to believe that. Yet does. This shows his desire to do so. In another context, this might be called bias. Here it is mistaken for patriotism. The truth is considerably more insidious.

Elder Earl is a victim of a “PsyOp”. The essence is, that in order to ensure loyalty to a cause without merit, the Initiate, in this a case Earl, is lead to perform a reprehensible act. It is tough to say from here just what his act was, and the specifics are not as important as the effect. Having been psycologically conditioned, Earl is now in no position to think critcally about current events. This is because should he question the cause, its’ leaders or thier orders, Earl will come squarely to face the reality of his own guilt. Guilt sufficiently strong to dissuade him.

Therefor, for Earl, it is enough to call the dead terrorists for Earl to fear them. And, moreover, for Earl to expect that you will fear them as well. That you do not, and go so far as to actually fear those who killed, rather than those who died, marks you out for Earl as “the Enemy”.

You must be the enemy. You fear who Earl loves, slavishly. And you love who Earl fears, irrationally. You ARE Earls’ Enemy, because Earl is psycologally damaged, in a particular, specific and intentional way. And for this there is a specic “Cure”.

In order for Earl to step out of the trap he is in, he need only recognize it for the trap it actually is. He need only notice that the bars around him are not intended to protect, but rather, contain him. Need only note that the prison he has constructed around himself is not a castle. This change in perspective is so unsubtle as to seem to some…magical…and to some others as fantastical and is for this reason often doubted by those in need of seeing, for that is the nature of thier injury. It is not always convienient to offer the opporunaty, but the most direct route to recovery of personal autonomy is to testify. On the stand, under oath. To rat on the rats. The price of absolution is a solution.

Clear example : suppose Scooter Libby broke down and spilled his guts. We would forgive him, wouldn’t we? We would even thank him, wouldn’t we?  In solving problems, even those he himself created, Libby would both rehabilitate himself and regain the confidence in him the public now lacks.

The price of absolution is a solution. And you will never get a better deal, anywhere.
Frosted Flake

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By Elder Earl, August 9, 2007 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

cyrena,


A Confident Bush
—Hugh Hewitt

On the first day of August, President Bush invited a group of radio talk show hosts into the Oval Office for a conversation primarily on the war. It was an off-the-record meeting, but my colleagues Bill Bennett, Michael Medved and Laura Ingraham all participated as did I in the far-reaching conversation. Pointed questions were asked and answered. The president gave a detailed assessment of the war, and if any of the hosts left unimpressed with the president’s determination and his grasp of the strategic situation they did not say so.

Many of us urged the president to take his case more often and directly to the American people. His ability to connect with the public seems to many of us to be best when he is engaged in long one-on-one interviews—and not just with center-right radio talk show hosts. Provided he is not edited, the president’s passion and understanding of the war in which we are engaged is the best chance for persuading the public that the increasingly successful surge be given time to succeed.

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By cyrena, August 9, 2007 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

#93418 by dantinak on 8/09 at 7:58 am
•  Cyrena,
Your hate for anything Bush Cheney is clouding your thoughts.  Set that aside, realize that our soldiers are going after the guys who bomb them and bomb Iraqi civilians.  This is a good thing.  The surge is working, at least on the military side.  The mainstream media is agreeing that this surge is working.

When every comment you make is clouded by your hatred for Bush/Cheney you end up with no one listening.  You need to step back and view things without your vision being clouded by hate.
Thanks for the unsolicited consultation, but your off-base, out of line, and probably even ignorant, but I’ll say naive because it sounds better.
For starters, the ESCALATION, (not “surge”) is NOT working, and to tell me (or anyone) that the MAINSTREAM MEDIA is “agreeing” that it’s working, is supposed to be proof that it is? No. And, you’ve been drinking the kool-aide way too long if you actually try to pass something like this off on a person that has so far avoided the coma that people like you have fallen into…right down the rabbit hole.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080807L.shtml

You should educate yourself. Here is another excellent piece.

http://select.nytimes.com/preview/2007/08/05/magazine/1154683896827.html

And when you’re done with that, have a look at this one:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080507D.shtml

There are others that give a much bloodier reality, but these should get you started.

Meantime, stay out of the psycho-babble field, and save the propaganda for your main-stream blogs. That is not what we have here. Any suggestion that we have done anything more than miserably fail in Iraq, on ALL fronts, militarily first. It was a war lost before it was begun, because it was begun for all of the WRONG reasons. And, that’s why we’ve already lost. And, if you don’t believe that nearly over 3,600 US troops have died, and 1001 of the private contractors have died, and lets not forget that we have also created the LARGE HUMANITARIAN and REFUGEE CRISES of modern times, or the 2 million Iraqis that have been slaughtered, or the 2 million that have been displaced.

The recent escalation that you call a “surge” is not successful from a military standpoint, unless you are counting the number of Iraqis that you can destroy in one air raid, as opposed to doing it on the ground. Those have been the primary “new” techniques of the surge, along with walling up the population, and making services totally inaccessible to the people.

Last but not least, we haven’t got the oil, and that’s the only reason we went there to begin with.
And guess what? All of this would be true whether I hated Dick Bush and his mob or not. And by the way, I wouldn’t even go so far as to say that I hate them. I definitely don’t hate the Shrub. I think he should be locked up someplace, and given the therapy he needs. Cheney of course should be locked up as well, but I’m willing to let the international criminal courts deal with him.

Now, read this as well, and then you’ll know the TRUTH about your “surge”.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080107I.shtml

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By dantinak, August 9, 2007 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

Cyrena,

Your hate for anything Bush Cheney is clouding your thoughts.  Set that aside, realize that our soldiers are going after the guys who bomb them and bomb Iraqi civilians.  This is a good thing.  The surge is working, at least on the military side.  The mainstream media is agreeing that this surge is working. 

When every comment you make is clouded by your hatred for Bush/Cheney you end up with no one listening.  You need to step back and view things without your vision being clouded by hate.

Report this

By cyrena, August 9, 2007 at 6:08 am Link to this comment

#93343 by Elder Earl on 8/09 at 2:36 am

Elder,

Bombing civillians has never been an acceptable option to anything, and it’s a major violation of all sorts of international laws.

WE are THERE, and it is NOT our place to be there.

Consequently, the Iraqis don’t have to “give up” anything or anybody. We just need to LEAVE.

Total authority is certainly what this war is all about…total US hegemony of the entire region. Nothing says you can shove that down their throats with bombs, just to steal their oil.

It hasn’t worked yet.

(by the way, this isn’t about religious zealots. It’s about dick cheney stealing oil…or at least trying to.)

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By Elder Earl, August 9, 2007 at 3:36 am Link to this comment

At any given moment, civilians could have simple gave up Mahdi Army militia by telling the proper authorities.  Then, stay away until the military goes in to arrest them.

Besides the only negotiation that a religious zealot understands is obsolete authority.

Report this

By cyrena, August 8, 2007 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

So this is now a daily thing, to just bomb civilians from the air. Routine. They always claim to be getting “militants” and the “militants” always turn out to be civilians, including women and children. And, since the U.S. has carried out SO MANY of these strikes since the “surge” WE know, that THEY know, (the commanders on the ground) that they are targeting civilians. If they can’t wall them in, they bomb them from the air.

And, on the eve of a major pilgrimage, they just get that many more. Could that be intentional? I used to think it was just the ignorance and stupidity of it all…attempting to take over a nation where they knew NOTHING about the culture/traditions, and cared even less. So, why would they bother to try to acknowledge such occasions, in determining their “operations”.  But now, it sounds like they were doing exactly that. The pilgrimage just gives them a chance to kill even larger numbers with the same strikes.

Report this

By QuyTran, August 8, 2007 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment

Big victory ! Congratulation to Bush/Cheney !

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