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Bush:  If We Withdraw Now, the Terrorists Win

Posted on Jul 5, 2007

President Bush was referring to U.S. troops when he made a comparison to Revolutionary War fighters who resisted a foreign occupation, but he could just as easily have been referring to the Iraqi insurgents.  He made the remark during a July 4th address to National Guard members and their families.

Washington Post:

“If we were to quit Iraq before the job is done, the terrorists we are fighting would not declare victory and lay down their arms. They would follow us here, home,” Bush told a crowd of about 1,000 gathered at a West Virginia Air National Guard maintenance hangar.

Bush’s two-hour trip to West Virginia came as he faces growing pressure, including from some senior Republicans on Capitol Hill, to draw down U.S. forces in Iraq.

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By farmertx, July 10, 2007 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

It seems that most parents are too busy keeping up with the Joneses to pay that much attention to the education and training of their kids.
Look at the troubles in schools across the country. Not just the shootings, but the assaults on teacher’s and fellow students.
It is too easy for a young person to lose themselves in video games and other escapes from reality.
We could pass a law that a parent has to do more in teaching a child manners and a sense of responsibility. But who will draft such a law? Imagine if the Shrub assigned someone to do that. And who will enforce that law? Again,imagine a Shrub appointee doing so.
The few who are able to understand what life is all about, besides getting richer and having more toys at the expense of others, have to hang tough and try to lead by example.
The urge to say to hell with it hits me daily, it seems. At my age (62), I’m not so worried that I will see the worst that could happen.
My old stand by is that those who forget or don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.
We didn’t get to this point in just a few years. It will be a long and difficult struggle to get beyond this and back to where our country should be.
But with enough people striving towards that end, it can and will happen.
The Shrub has helped a lot in a way. There are many intelligent folks that swallowed his promises and truly believed in him. They neglected to see that he had never accomplished anything. Many of his supporter’s are now asking themselves, how could I have been so dumb? Hopefully, they won’t make that same mistake again.
Getting younger folks who ignore politics into voting wisely won’t be easy, but we need to try.
Getting Congress to change the politics as usual system won’t be easy. Hell, that will be damn nigh impossible. But we have to keep trying.
It’s that or move to an island. And with global warming, will there be any islands left?

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By Zena, July 9, 2007 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Farmertex, you sound like a very,very, intelligent man. How would you suggest fast and hard education beside the obvious letting them experience the hard facts of life in their own lifetimes which would affect the rest of us as well? Sounds like a parent’s job, doesn’t it? I have to wonder if kids have been so brainwashed and ‘dumbed down’ to be able to come to the conclusions the rest of us have. I know they could come up with some fantastic solutions we would never think of if they could just see the facts…I guess it’s obvious that I’m angry and I’m worried. I really do feel like giving up and go sleep under a bridge.

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By farmertx, July 9, 2007 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment

Zena,yes there is much that needs changing. Back in the 60’s I just knew that it would be legal in 20-30 years at most. Still waiting.
As to the Supremes, a lifetime appointment is hard to get around. Although, we do need to think about changing that.
It is only in the last decade or so that politics has trumped what is best for the country.
Judging by the various blogs, there is a lot of discontent with the status quo, as well there should be.
Biggest job ahead is removing big money from politics thus negating the influence of special interests. Then maybe we can get some candidates that are truly interested in doing what is best for our country and not just making themselves richer.
That and convincing folks that they have to pay attention to the candidates so that a clueless individual will never again be elevated beyond his/her abilities.

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By Zena, July 9, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

LOL! That has to be changed along with all the other hypocricies! Like all the other dirty dog politicians NEVER hAVE????  Anybody who believes that still believes in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, and we all know that it was business people who made that up!If they aren’t hooked on drugs and/or alcohol, it’s money. They act like kids in a candy store, with nobody looking. But the people make a BIG mistake to treat them like children, we will get killed like that!  BTW; did ya hear about the Mexican super-highway? Supposedly the supreme court ruled it ok. Time to get rid of them too, heh?

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By farmertx, July 9, 2007 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

Thank you ma’am, but I can’t run. Not only did I inhale, I still do from time to time :>)

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By Zena, July 9, 2007 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The more I find out what Americans have been doing in Iraq, the more I realize they are doing the EXACT same things to our citizens, by way of religious party. And I can’t find anyone except the shills for Bush to say any different. The Bathists are the Democrats, and the Sunni’s are the Republicans. Or it is the other way ‘round?

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By farmertx, July 8, 2007 at 10:12 am Link to this comment

Thanks. Always interested in alternative viewpoints, unlike some folks who can’t conceive that there is another way of looking at things.

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By cyrena, July 7, 2007 at 11:45 pm Link to this comment

Ya know Farmertx,

In all honesty, the bin Laden types have only been SUPPORTED by this “war on terror”. The Mob propaganda has elevated them from a rag-tag “cult” to this now overwhelming “presence” in the mentality. There’s no denying that he and Zawahiri, (his co-founder) could NEVER have achieved such notoriety, if the manufactured events and propaganda of the Mob had not propelled them to such a state.

In short, the cheney team has satisfied their hearts’ desires, and fulfilled all of their distorted dreams of martyrdom.

An excellent book, (if you have time, because it’s lengthy) is

“The Looming Tower:Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11”
The author is Lawrence Wright- 2006

It is one of the very best and most well researched books I’ve read on the subject.

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By farmertx, July 7, 2007 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

Yes, I agree that the two of them are much worse than I feared they could be. I knew it wouldn’t be good, but…
Too many American’s, constantly hearing about other countries envying our freedom’s and lifestyle, assume that all other countries want the same exact thing.
They do, but too many of their countrymen are dead set against it.
We have to remember that civilization supposedly started in the Mideast. At one time Muslims were the smartest folks around.
Now, they look around and see that their countries have been left behind, except for the ‘aid’ from America. And the consumer goods that America produces, or used to produce, I should say. Most technology was centered in the West, among non believers. To have anything of a modern nature, they had to bring in outsider’s to set it up and then maintain it.
That right there was a source of resentment to many Muslim’s, especially the radical elements.
All it took was someone like bin Laden, with access to lots of money, to show them that they could ‘strike’ back at the Great Satan.
They weren’t interested in developing their technology, teaching their people how to understand and use this new tool. No, the tools and technology that they taught involved death and destruction.
And along comes Duhbya, dumber than your average stump, to compound error upon error. One misjudgment after another. And he will, hopefully, ride off into the sunset to his new ranch in South America, where there are no extradition treaties, to enjoy his new found riches.
I say hopefully, because there is a chance that he will use his self granted authority to impose martial law and declare himself President for life. He has the ego to do just that.

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By cyrena, July 7, 2007 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Farmertx, this post is as true as it gets. I wish only that more people would realize it:

....“The Arab/Israeli situation will never be solved by an American. Just as America will not force democracy on any country.”....

This is the part that “our leaders” still forget. (or ignore). It’s the hubris. It’s the mentality that America can go anywhere, and do anything, to anybody, and that other populations will have no problems with that. The situation in Israel/Palestine is a direct result of American interference, and the international community’s failure to curtail the illegal behaviors of Israel, (as supported by the West) for the past half century or better.

When the U.S. accepts the fact that we cannot just FORCE ourselves and our “values” (which are horribly warped at this point in time)on another part of the population, and expect no repercussions.

I remember in the run-up to The Coup of 2000, when I still lived in Texas, one of the many political “chain mails” that I received, made the stark point, that brings us to where we are now….

The message was this:

The Dick Bush team is DANGEROUS…george is dangerous because he’s so stupid, and dick is dangerous because he is NOT.

And, here we all are, 7 years later, the proof of that is horribly displayed before us..

Even I never expected they could do this much damage.

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By farmertx, July 7, 2007 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Yes, the Muslim religion in its pure form is a religion of peace. I have been around some Muslims in this community as well as Dallas. Very outgoing and friendly people.
We can’t lose sight of the fact that all groups have some bad apples.
Just as the Arab/Israeli situation; there are some level headed folks on both sides that want an end to the violence. But there are some hot heads on each side that won’t hear of it.
How many peace accords have there been. And all were broken.
The Arab/Israeli situation will never be solved by an American. Just as America will not force democracy on any country.
In Iraq, democracy means that they can do anything to anyone. Not quite the spirit that we understand democracy to hold.
And, therein lies the problem. A Westerner, with no understanding of the culture and history of a people, tries to instill Western practices…and can’t understand why they don’t work.
Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat history. Seems like there is some real truth to that old saw.
A lot of folks forget that Shrubs’ daddy had to send learned people to Austin, to teach Shrub what he should have learned in college. This was while Shrub was Governor of Texas. Which explains why Texas has so many problems now.
And that tutoring wasn’t that extensive. Just enough so that he would have some idea which country was on what continent; which leader was sorta friendly to the US, et cetera. No in depth studies. As it was, this was all above Shrubs’ comprehension. Which is why he has made such a mess of everything. That, and refusing to listen to any views that didn’t match his own warped ones.

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By cyrena, July 6, 2007 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

#84642 by farmertx on 7/06 at 5:34 pm

......“And yet, look at our country. Very literate, yet how many believe all they hear on Faux News? I know several here in Van Zandt County, Texas (60 miles east of Dallas)”.....

I know many of the same folks in neighboring Dallas and Tarrant Counties. I escaped 6 years ago, and found my way back home. BUT, my contacts with former friends and colleagues in the area, are still very firmly wedded to Faux Fox, and the various Biblical interpretations of things.

.....“Thankfully, even some of those have come to question all they were being told”....

So, this IS good news. That some of them have in fact begun to question things. Still, I’m hoping we can continue to rescue more of our citizens from that rabbit hole.

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By lilmamzer, July 6, 2007 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

#84642 by farmertx:

Obviously, one who can read the Quran and put his own spin on the teachings isn’t illiterate.

Yes, of course.

My point was to counter the conventional interpretation of the extremist Islamic motivation, which is to say they are motivated by lack of economic opportunities, lack of education - in short, the the kinds of motivations we tend to think they should be angry about.

But it’s not about those things at all. If that were the case, you’d see suicide bombers coming out of every religion and ethnic group all the time, and we just don’t see that. There are millions of poor Buddhists in the world but they don’t run around decapitating Infidels and blowing up pizza parlors full of teenagers because their “spiritual leaders” (read: Imams) tell them to.

It’s all about The Religion Of Peace©

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By farmertx, July 6, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

I was speaking of those who carry out the attacks when I wrote about the illiterates. Obviously, one who can read the Quran and put his own spin on the teachings isn’t illiterate.
And yet, look at our country. Very literate, yet how many believe all they hear on Faux News? I know several here in Van Zandt County, Texas (60 miles east of Dallas).
Thankfully, even some of those have come to question all they were being told. And are now wondering how they could have been so dumb as to vote for Duhbya twice.
There is light at the end of the tunnel. Whether it is sunlight or the headlight of the southbound fast freight remains to be seen.

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By lilmamzer, July 6, 2007 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

Nahida, do you actually think most people (who do not take the articles they read on <strike>Truthcrap</strike> Truthdig seriously) actually believe that Muslim extremists like Hamas and Fatah’s “Al Aksa Martyr’s Brigades” are tolerant and accepting of other faiths and traditions?


That is why public opinion polls show support for Israel rising in the US consistently. Because they see now that Hamas and Fatah are the spiritual and Jihad brothers of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Iraq, and stand in stark opposition to American values of freedom and liberty.

Hamas + Fatah = “Palestinian” Arab Terrorists

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By lilmamzer, July 6, 2007 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

#84612 by nahida:

Muslim-Christian Relations in Palestine

by Archimandrite Dr. Atallah Hanna - Greek Orthodox Patriarchate

You are living in denial, Nahida.

The area run by the Muslim Arabs of Gaza and out of Ramallah do, indeed, persecute the Christians, and have done so for years. There is a culture of intimidation and fear which we now see the Muslims visit upon each other vis a vis Fatah and Hamas.

The history is being written and it is not favorable to the Muslim Arabs.

You might want to read some of Ray Hanania’s latest articles. He will skewer you like shawarma. He is no friend of the Jews or Israel, but he knows when his fellow Christians are done wrong by the Muslims.

Here’s a recent one:,7340,L-3378925,00.html

“Although the “religiousization” of the Palestinian people began more than a decade ago, it only found its strength in the last few years and reared its ugly head publicly after Hamas took control of the Palestinian government.

No secular establishment is safe. An Internet cafe in the Gaza Strip was firebombed. A cultural center was forced to cancel a program deemed unacceptable to the principles of Islam, and other cultural organizations have been carefully screening programs so as not to “offend” the religious police.

Three Palestinian women, believed to be prostitutes, were murdered, each killed with a bullet to the head and chest, and dumped in a public location.

Clandestine Islamic groups with names like the Swords of Islamic Righteousness, suspected to be associated with Hamas or the Hamas security services, have claimed responsibility.

The threat of the religious fanatics has been on the secular horizon for years. Increasingly during Ramadan, secular and Christian-owned restaurants in “Christian” towns like Bethlehem and Beit Jala have been forced to close their outdoor patios so as not to “offend” Muslims who are forbidden to eat during the daylong fasting.”

Your world is a fantasy world, Nahida, where you are the perpetual squeaky-clean victim and never responsible for the causing harm to anyone else. It’s dangerously naive to be that way, but it’s your loss eventually.

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

Living in an Islamic Environment

by Pierre Shantz

Contrary to what I thought and was told, Islam is much like Christianity in that there are different streams and understandings. There are pacifists such as Ferial Abu Haikal, a headmistress at a local school who teaches her children to resist in nonviolent ways. There are extremists, and images of what they do are portrayed all over the news. There are some conservatives who follow the law very strictly; some women will cover their heads (we also have this in Christianity); some men do not shake hands with women. There are also some more liberal people who will have a little wine if they go to Bethlehem, and once in a while I even find someone who tries to convert me.

One characteristic that does not seem to differ from one Muslim to another is their acceptance and respect for me as a Christian. Everywhere I go I will find a cup of tea or coffee to drink. People will cook their meals with enough extra to feed someone who drops in for a visit. One day another member of the team, our translator and myself were visiting a family. After several hours we were ready to leave. The father pulled back a curtain and presented to us a spread of fried potatoes, eggs, hummus, bread and other delicious food. This was the first time we met the family. There was no reason for them to prepare a meal, it was not during regular mealtime hours. This was simply a gesture of hospitality that is common here. When visiting someone it is impolite not to serve something and it is just as impolite to refuse. This family extended the welcome with that little extra touch. On other occasions too we have received a full meal; and with tea and coffee, some fruit or cookies are almost always offered. The culture here is very unselfish. It makes us, back home, look like the Scrooge. Even after being here for seven months I still find myself hiding what I am eating if someone drops by and being upset that my lunch is being interrupted. We westerners are much more inclined to be individualistic.

Pierre Shantz is a member of Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT).

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

Muslim-Christian Relations in Palestine

by Archimandrite Dr. Atallah Hanna - Greek Orthodox Patriarchate

“Various reports have been publicized recently, charging that the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) is persecuting Christians. In this article we would like to affirm in all honesty that these reports are untrue, and express our indignation at these fabricated claims.

Christian Palestinians have not, and I believe will not, suffer at the hands of the PNA, but this is only part of the story. Christians here are indeed suffering, but this is as a result of the harsh conditions undergone due to the faltering peace process, and the ongoing denial of legitimate rights to Palestinians. In this, Muslims and Christians suffer equally.

The publicity given to these false rumors at this particular time causes mistrust and confusion. But worse, it could adversely affect the good relations that have historically bound Muslims and Christians together into a single Palestinian family.

We cannot allow these allegations to go unchallenged at a time when the PNA desperately needs help and support. To slander the PNA is to do damage to the Palestinian people in general, for we are a united people - having a shared culture and history. Arab Christians and Muslims are bound together by a common set of social, behavioral and moral norms. We do not need interpreters to relate to each other; our one language helps to shape our close mutual relationships, whether social or civic.

Today both religions are in favor of dialogue and encounter. Quality dialogue does not distance believers from their faith, but rather dignifies us as human beings created in the image of God. It is said that we are enemies of what we are ignorant of, and so dialogue has traditionally been used as a gateway to enlightenment and the elimination of causes of possible conflict.

In our journey through history, we sons and daughters of Palestine have been bound by love and a mutual destiny. For instance, Christian Palestinians are proud of their national allegiance, and have always worked alongside their Muslim brothers for the national cause. To list all the areas of agreement between Muslims and Christians would be to belabor the point. Rather than recording the bonds that exist, we do better to demonstrate them, and continue to uphold the dignity of all members of this one people.

Education is of the utmost importance in reinforcing our national unity, and combating any attempt to break this down. It is the role of education to foster tolerance and love within the Palestinian family, and it is our duty to raise awareness and pride in our common heritage and sound Arab values. This same message needs to be further emphasized from the pulpits of our churches and mosques. Religious leaders from both communities need to meet on a regular basis, to ensure that they are doing all they can to promote mutual harmony.

The Palestinian people, of whom we Christians are an integral part, should look toward a better future - by learning from past mistakes we can avoid being a target of those who do not wish us well. Our history has proved that these attempts to create conflict between us are bound to fail in the end.

We call on all peace-loving peoples to support the firm resolve and steadfastness of the Palestinian people, as we work toward the realization of a peace that is based on the principles of justice, equality and human rights. At this crucial time of nation-building: laying the foundations and infrastructure of a healthy local economy, the need to defend the Palestinian Authority against this charge is clear. There is no policy of persecution - let us therefore stand together, for in unity there is strength.”

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

LAW Report - The Myth of Christian Persecution by the PA

“The recent reports of persecution of Palestine’s Christian population gained currency after the ‘leaking’ of an Israeli Prime Minister’s office report about the persecution of Christians in areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority.”

“This superficial example fails to examine the catastrophic [effects] of thirty years of Israeli occupation over the Palestinian Territories. ... Bernard Sabella, Professor of Sociology at Bethlehem University and demographic expert, gives a very different interpretation of the causes of this emigration. The massive outmigration resulted from the exodus of 726,000 Palestinian refugees during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Fifty to sixty thousand Palestinian Christians, comprising 35% of all Christians in pre-1948 Mandatory Palestine, were among the refugees. ... The catastrophic condition of the Palestinian economy, particularly after redeployment and as a result of stifled trade and ongoing embargoes, has encouraged ongoing emigration among the generally better-educated Christian minority.”

The damage that can be done by paying heed to false and exaggerated reports is highlighted by local Christian leaders:

“Local evangelical Christian pastors sent a letter to Jerry Falwell urging him to recognize the injustices done to the Palestinian people as a whole (Moslems as well as Christians) and that ‘by lobbying against any further Israeli troop withdrawals from the West Bank, you are endorsing the theft of Palestinian lands and adopting the dangerous position of Israeli extremists.’ ... The heads of the Christian communities in Palestine, several mayors and the heads of prominent institutions in the Bethlehem, Beit Jala and Beit Sahour area denounced the Israeli propaganda and declared that the allegations were false and intended ‘only to encourage ethnic strife’. ... The Latin-rite Catholic Patriarchate reacted similarly. ...”

From the Conclusion to the report:

“It became clear through the research, and through the overwhelming response of the local Christian communities, that allegations of a general policy of persecution by the Palestinian Authority against the ancient Christian community were based on misconstrued and often false information. Local Christian responses were also entirely disregarded. The origins of these allegations are racist and are forwarded with a specific political intent. Hostility to Islam and to the Palestinian Authority fueled the allegations put forward by the Prime Ministers office, in a report seen as ‘bread and butter’ for the Israeli administration’s propaganda war against the Palestinian Authority.

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By lilmamzer, July 6, 2007 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

#84563 by farmertx:

I would suggest you look to Afghanistan where thet held two American missionaries (female) for daring to offer an alternative religion. Indonesia has had many church bombings/burnings. And I am sure that there are other places as well.

Good luck trying to find a church in Saudi Arabia, or even trying to bring a personal copy of the New Testament into the country with you. The guards at the airport will confiscate it and possibly deny you entry simply for possessing it.

And then there’s this recent event in Gaza:

Christian Monastery Attacked in Gaza

During the recent fighting in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah, the Christian community in Gaza was also targeted. The Palestinian paper Al-Ayyam reported that “Armed masked men… stole, destroyed and burned down a monastery and a church school in Gaza, after they bombed the main gate with RPG shells… they destroyed the main gate of the monastery with an RPG shell, and then entered the church and destroyed everything in the monastery: The crosses, the holy books, computers and photocopy machines.” They appeared to be members of Hamas’ Al-Qassam Brigades, however, the Hamas has directed the blame at the Palestinian Authority police.

Palestinian writer Khaled Abu Toameh recently reported in The Jerusalem Post on the ruin of the Christian community of Bethlehem:

“The conditions of Christians in Bethlehem and its surroundings had deteriorated ever since the area was handed over [from Israel] to the PA in 1995…. ‘Every day we hear of another Christian family that has immigrated to the US, Canada or Latin America… The Christians today make up less than 15 percent of the population’… “Samir Qumsiyeh [said]: “I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem.”
The Jerusalem Post
Bethlehem Christians Claim Persecution
Jan. 25, 2007

A number of Christian families have finally decided to break their silence and talk openly about what they describe as Muslim persecution of the Christian minority in this city. The move comes as a result of increased attacks on Christians by Muslims over the past few months. The families said they wrote letters to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, the Vatican, Church leaders and European governments complaining about the attacks, but their appeals have fallen on deaf ears. According to the families, many Christians have long been afraid to complain in public about the campaign of “intimidation” for fear of retaliation by their Muslim neighbors and being branded “collaborators” with Israel. But following an increase in attacks on Christian-owned property in the city over the past few months, some Christians are no longer afraid to talk about the ultra-sensitive issue. And they are talking openly about leaving the city.

“The situation is very dangerous,” said Samir Qumsiyeh, owner of the Beit Sahur-based private Al-Mahd (Nativity) TV station. “I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem. Then you will need a torch to find a Christian here. This is a very sad situation.” Qumsiyeh, one of the few Christians willing to speak about the harsh conditions of their community, has been the subject of numerous death threats. His house was recently attacked with fire-bombs, but no one was hurt.

Qumsiyeh said he has documented more than 160 incidents of attacks on Christians in the area in recent years. He said a monk was recently roughed up for trying to prevent a group of Muslim men from seizing lands owned by Christians in Beit Sahur.

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By lilmamzer, July 6, 2007 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

#84475 by farmertx:

Yet, because most Muslim’s can’t read, they take the word of their Imam as to what the Koran says. All it takes is one or two Imam’s telling their follower’s a pack of lies and the Jihad is on.

Illiteracy (call it lack of education) as the primary cause of Jihad is a myth. A very dangerous myth.

This week in the UK there were five Muslim physicians arrested for the terrorist attacks at the airport and the car bomb in London. Bin Laden is filthy rich, and his deputy Zawahiri is a physician. Mohammed Atta, the Egyptian leader of the 9-11 terrorists was an engineer by training. The leaders of Hamas are highly educated yet relentlessly promote their genocidal Jihad against Jews.

The Jihad is driven by an ideology of distilled hatred that is so pure it values death above life, even for the Jihadi committing the terrorist acts. It is not driven by economics or poverty or lack of education.

And it’s all brought to you by The Religion Of Peace©

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By farmertx, July 6, 2007 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

I would suggest you look to Afghanistan where thet held two American missionaries (female) for daring to offer an alternative religion. Indonesia has had many church bombings/burnings. And I am sure that there are other places as well.
Ignorence does work both ways. You only have to look at the American leadership since 2000 to see that.
Yes, there are many supposedly educated people here in the US that believe that all Muslims follow bin Laden.
I cannot imagine the loss you feel for Palestine. The fact that the Jews needed a country of their own after War II does little to salve that wound.
My apologies for my lack of knowledge about the Quran, including the spelling. I do appreciate your taking the time to furnish the quotes.
But, I hope that we can agree that bin Ladens’ version of the Quran is a tad skewed.

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By lilmamzer, July 6, 2007 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

#84477 by nahida:

There is no Palestine, do you understand
No more Palestine

No more Palestine?

There never was a Palestine, ever.

Only Israel, which was renamed Palestine by the Romans after the Romans conquered and occupied the Jewish homeland. They renamed it in a failed attempt to remove the Jewish identity from the land and the land from its people.

There never was any sovereign Arab entity in Israel or so-called Palestine.

There never was an Arab country called Palestine. Ever.

You are writing bad poetry about a country that never existed, doesn’t exist today, and, the way the Gazan and Ramallah-based Arabs are conducting themselves, there won’t be one in the future.

Nurse your mythical grievances for a lost nation that never was. All you want, until your dying days.

It won’t make the myth reality, and it won’t advance the cause of peace and freedom for all peoples of the region.

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By Zena, July 6, 2007 at 11:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Isn’t the fact of the matter is; all these wicked world dictators have gotten together and schemed on how to use religion as a means to keep people confused and disunited and bought them some preachers to spread disinformation and chaos into every country to keep their evil dictatorships going? It’s a deliberate attack on faith and a perverted view of the object of faith people worship. And the people who still yet refuse to read the bible or Koran or any other religious missive pertinent to their religion are helping them make war on people. I’m sure there are various reasons for their NOT reading it, but none of them justify their lazinessness or cowardness. Isn’t it time to look at the people who still support such a dishonest regime in America? It’s time there was an accounting…

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 9:14 am Link to this comment

Dear Farmertx;

I totally agree with you that ignorance is a problem in many parts of the Muslim world, ignorance and illiteracy lead to bad practices,  poor judgements, and regrettable actions; however ignorance works both ways, and swallowing the official propaganda without thorough research is also a truth killer.

This kind of ignorance can only lead to more bloodshed and further injustices. Furthermore, it’s a worse kind of ignorance because people are able to READ.

One only needs to study the teaching of Islam to see that all the accusations against the faith are baseless and unjustifiable.

To do a proper search of truth, one must take it from its original authentic sources and from those who follow the faith, not from propagandists or Hollywood movies.

A glaring example of the above is what you’ve said repeating the propaganda:

1) “There have been no mosques shut down here in the US. Can the same be said of a Christian Church in a Muslim country?”

Give me examples of shut down churches in Muslim countries, please.

In my stolen homeland, Palestine, Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived for millennia with peace and harmony (before the current colonization and ethnic cleansing of the native Palestinians by the American and European Zionist invaders).

The keys of the Church of Resurrection are still entrusted with a Muslim family because of the existence of many Christian sects who couldn’t agree to give it to one of them.

You also said:

2) “The Muslims’ are supposed to go after the total non-believer’s.”

The Quran gives the Muslims the right to defend themselves, NEVER TO BE AGGRESSORS against anyone:

For the sake of the truth I lay out the Quranic teaching that relates to fighting:

Quranic quotation:

“To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight back), because they are wronged; and verily, God is most powerful for their aid; (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,-(for no cause) except that they say, our Lord is God”. (22:39-40)

‘Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not initiate aggression. God does not love transgressors.’ (2.190)

“God commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and antagonism: He advices you, that ye may be reminded.” (16-90)

“O believers, be you guardians of justice, witness for God. Let not your dislike for a people move you away from being equitable; be equitable - that is nearer to being God-conscious.” (5:8)

“No soul shall be made to bear the burden (liability) of another.” (35:18)

“But show them forgiveness, and say “Peace!” and soon shall they know!” (43; 89)

“The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God; for (God) loveth not those who are wrong-doers”. (42:40)

‘If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things.’ (8.61)

“But God does call to the Home of Peace” (10-25)

“Ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the desires (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Thus, have We made of you a nation justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves” (2-143)

“Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” (7:199)

“It may well be that God will bring about love (and friendship) between you and those with whom you are now at odds.” (60:7)

“Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel evil with what is best: if you do so, he who is your enemy will become a close friend.” (41.34)

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

Rising above

Soaked in humiliation
Standing in the corner
Of the -security check- cubical
All alone
No mum to hold my hand
Or calm down my fear
No dad to hide my shame
And wipe my tears away
No shoes, no socks, no clothes
Not even underwear
After being stripped
By her…

The stern face
Of this woman soldier
Was looking down at me
In fury and contempt

She started her interrogation:
Where are you going to?
Palestine, my little shaky voice replied
Where are you going to? louder and firmer
Palestine, swiftly this time
There is no Palestine, do you understand
No more Palestine
Where are you going? shouting with rage
Palestine, assertively
Determined to deny her the pleasure
Of hearing the word
She wanted to hear

A refugee, visiting my stolen Palestine
For the first time
Since the occupation
A little girl of nine
Defiant, full of dignity, I leave
Holding in my heart
My very own victory ♥

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By farmertx, July 6, 2007 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

nahida, this isn’t solely about religion. There have been no mosques shut down here in the US. Can the same be said of a Christian Church in a Muslim country?
The Koran, as I understand it, says that Muslims have no problems with people of the book. In other words, if ones’ religion is codified into a bible, it is ok. The Muslims’ are supposed to go after the total non-believer’s.
Yet, because most Muslim’s can’t read, they take the word of their Imam as to what the Koran says. All it takes is one or two Imam’s telling their follower’s a pack of lies and the Jihad is on.
There are wheels within wheels that we ordinary folks can’t see. And America has been poorly served by this sitting President. Just as the prople in Iran aren’t totally behind their President, neither are the folks in America behind their “leader”.

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 8:25 am Link to this comment

The Easiest Targets

{13-minute video: Five women – Palestinian, American, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish – tell stories of humiliation and harassment by Israeli border guards and airport security officials.

Israeli officials have been regularly strip-searching children for decades, some of them American citizens.

While organizations that focus on Israel-Palestine have long been aware that Israeli border officials regularly strip-search men and women, If Americans Knew appears to be the first organization that has specifically investigated the situation. In the course of its investigation on searches of women, If Americans Knew was astonished to learn that Israeli officials have also been strip-searching girls as young as seven and below.

According to interviews with women in the United States, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli border officials periodically force Christian and Muslim females of all ages to remove their clothing and submit to searches. In some cases the children are then “felt” by Israeli officials.

Sometimes mothers and children are strip-searched together, at other times little girls are taken from their parents and strip-searched alone. Women are required to remove sanitary napkins, sometimes with small daughters at their side. Sometimes women are strip searched in the presence of their young sons.

All report deep feelings of humiliation. Many describe weeping at the degradation they felt.

“I remember crying and pleading with my mother,” Gaza journalist Laila El-Haddad recalls of an experience when she was 12-years-old, hoping that her mother could convince the Israeli official to allow her to keep her undershirt on. But parents are unable to shield their children, El-Haddad and others report.

Jewish Holocaust Survivor Hedy Epstein,who was 79 at the time, describes being forced to bend over for an Israeli official to search her internally.} quoted from Sabbah’s blog

For how long can a human being take this kind of humiliation?

Would any one like this to happen to their mothers, wives or daughters?

Why would USA support such sadistic occupiers?

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

The Iron Wall

Please watch this documentary and get some sense of the great injustice experienced by Palestinians.

Try to understand why Palestinians cannot comprehend the American support of the apartheid state of israel.

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By nahida, July 6, 2007 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

People in USA must come to understand that there is so much anger in the Muslim world and elsewhere, anger because of the constant injustice, imperialism, humiliation, occupation, invasion, ruin, and aggression and because of the unconditional support of the USA to the pariah racist state of Israel.

America’s self indulgence by putting itself on higher moral grounds as the ethical model of the world and by proclaiming the right to be the police state of the globe; yet committing the most vile crimes against humanity and the unleashed frantic destruction of other nations is a major factor in this repugnance.

To propagate otherwise (putting the blame solely on Muslims and blaming their faith and religion) is nothing less than racism, fascism and a call for mass murder.
It is a drive towards justifying crimes against humanity, as by classifying people as inherently evil only because they chose to believe in a Creator and to have faith is nothing less than calling for the annihilating of entire nations only for their beliefs.

Tarnishing an entire group of people with accusation of wickedness is merely an attempt to make genocide looks acceptable and passes unchallenged.

Muslims are not intrinsically or inherently evil nor does Islam teaches violence, as many are led to believe in order for their government to justify their ongoing genocide and yet to prepare the grounds of the holocaust to come.

The truth is out there for all those who seek.

What we see now written and said about Muslims mirrors the climate of the thirties in Nazi Germany and what was said then against the Jews.

If we don’t categorically, courageously, and sincerely face the facts, we will find ourselves heading towards a new catastrophe, a new holocaust, dragging our world into unprecedented upheaval and devastation, and we would’ve learned nothing from the mistakes of the past.

American policy makers must face themselves and look into the mirror, if we are to save our world from this insanity and bloodshed.

They must take a good look in the mirror and see the monsters they’ve became, before pointing fingers at anyone else who are fed up with their international policies, invasions and aggression.

The makers of these abhorrent policies need to ask themselves what they are doing wrong to accumulate so much loathing from people all over the globe

{ Poll finds mistrust of Bush abroad

37 of 47 countries express doubts

Favorable views of America touched modern lows in Britain, where just 51 percent of those queried expressed a favorable view of this country, and Germany, where the figure was 30 percent.

Of those surveyed, those who said they have a favorable view of the United States fell to 9 percent in Turkey, 21 percent in Egypt and 15 percent in Pakistan, all key players in US anti-terrorism strategy.}

How many countries did they invade?
How many brutal and unelected dictatorships s did they support?
How many millions did they massacre around the world?

Remember Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now the threat to Iran and the unconditional support of the apartheid racist state of Israel to name but a few.

Every action has a reaction; this simple fact must be understood, people reap what they sow, and karma is always paid in full.

But hope is not all lost, as the very existence of just and peace loving people in America, people like Cyrena, Robert, QuyTran,  Zena, Mike Mid-City, Allan Wheeler, 911truthdotorg,  in this thread is evidence of that.

Hope is not all lost

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By farmertx, July 6, 2007 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

Squidfink, if you really believe that the Shrub is all that religious, you have refused to see what he has done.
Der Karl told the Shrub to talk about God to get the born again types to vote for him. He did and they did, twice. Now, most are regretting those votes.
All we can do now is hope that he doesn’t declare martial law.
And next time, look beyond the sound bites and photo-ops at the person. Shrubs’ biggest accomplishment in life was fathering a set of twins. He failed at everything else until Der Karl told him which lies would get him elected.
And, at that, if the out moded Electoral College hadn’t been in place, he would have lost in 2000; to Al Gore of all people.
You really need to get out and see what is going on.

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By Trigger finger, July 6, 2007 at 5:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s his sixty first birthday!

“Another day older and deeper in debt”

Or is it?

“Another year older and stupider yet”

No question, He is the dumbest man ever put in power by our beloved Supreme Court.  With all their wisdom you would think they would have seen these results, especially when so many common folks were able to see them.

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By cyrena, July 5, 2007 at 11:25 pm Link to this comment

#84323 by squidfink on 7/05 at 4:09 pm

•  I just hope all of you people making fun of our President will be saved by baby Jesus someday.
We’re over there, so we don’t have to be over here. It’s so simple. Or I am.

Squidfink, I fear that you have answered your own question….YOU are the simple one.
And, while that’s certainly not a crime, (ignorance can be bliss for many) in the long run, it’s probably not beneficial to you.

Way back some 35 or 40 years ago, when the war in Vietnam was raging, I remember asking one of my teachers, (a nun, I was in the 5th or 6th grade) WHY we were way over there fighting. I asked because while nobody from my own family was involved in that particular war, I had so many friends and neighbors, and siblings of classmates who were there and dying. It really got to be so horrific, because they (our troops) were dying by the thousands, and/or returning home completely broken.

The answer, (from my teachers) was that we (our troops) were fighting, (dying) over there in far away Vietnam, so that we wouldn’t have to fight those communists over here.
Needless-to-say, most of my own classmates, neighbors, etc, etc, accepted this reasoning without much thought. I simply couldn’t. It made no sense to me then, just as it makes no sense to me now. It was a lie then, (because the communists didn’t “follow us home”) and it’s a lie now. The problem now, is that this war on Iraq (and the Greater Middle East) was a PLANNED destruction, just like the collapse of the WTC. And the only reason for our continued presence in Iraq or elsewhere is about greed. It’s about the greed of conquering for the sake of appropriating the natural resources of that region, and for the sake if total hegemony (American hegemony) throughout the world.

The bottom line is that there is no religion anywhere that can possibly endorse the killing of innocents for the accomplishment of money and power.

And, I don’t know if anyone is actually “making fun” of george bush. I know it may sound like it, since we can easily vent our frustration by pointing out how intellectually incompetent he is. But, that does not mean that he shouldn’t be taken seriously, because he is the one with the “technical” control, to create all of this destruction, which makes him a very dangerous person indeed.

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By 911truthdotorg, July 5, 2007 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

The bush crime family ARE the only terrorists we have to worry about.

Did the “terrorists” do 9/11? No
Did the “terrorists” invade Iraq? No
Did the “terrorists” systematically destroy the Constitution, our rights, freedoms, Habeus Corpus? No
Did the “terrorists” give themselves the ability to declare martial law for any reason and keep themselves in power indefinitely? No
Did the “terrorists” build secret detention centers around the country to hold “dissenters” after martial law is declared? No
Did the “terrorists” wiretap our phones? No
Did the “terrorists” fire Federal US Attorneys for purely political reasons? No
Did the “terrorists” disclose an undercover CIA Agent to discredit her husband’s stand against Iraq? No
Did the “terrorists” make one their own lie to a Grand Jury and obstruct justice only to be pardoned by the criminal-in-chief? No

I cannot describe the level of disgust I hold for these criminals in the White House.

Google videos: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition, America: Freedom to Fascism

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By kevin99999, July 5, 2007 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This man is too unprincipled to be taken seriously on any subject.

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By Zena, July 5, 2007 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Besides, Jesus would never defend Bush’s murder for money. Anyone who could believe that does NOT know Christ. Bush is an evil man who works for Satan. If you don’t believe me, read the bible once in your life. And only Satan lies. Jesus NEVER did! In fact, he whipped all the moneychangers like Bush OUT of the temple for turning it into a den of thieves! Don’t you dare say Bush is doing it for Jesus!@!! What he is does is in contempt of Jesus and his contempt for goodness and the law and order is proof! Something bad will happen to you, oh you evil serpents, who hath warned ye of the wrath of GOD?

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By DMK, July 5, 2007 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

To Squidfink,
This must be a joke as no one except Bush could be this dense.
If you are this dense, I feel sorry for you because you have bought a very damaged bill of goods in the propaganda that has spewed from the White House.

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By DMK, July 5, 2007 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

To Squidfink,
This must be a joke as no one except Bush could be this dense.
If you are, I feel sorry for you.

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By Zena, July 5, 2007 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

How can you stop terrorists from coming into America, when Bush and Co. is actively recruiting them and paying them to come here? They have made fools of us all, and the only 2 things holding the remaining supporters back are 1. The money and power they can’t bear to give up…2. Those not in the loop can’t bear to lose face and admit they were duped and made fools of. The only other choice is: they are brain-dead.
Perhaps it’s time for the states to secede…

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By squidfink, July 5, 2007 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I just hope all of you people making fun of our President will be saved by baby Jesus someday.

We’re over there, so we don’t have to be over here. It’s so simple. Or I am.

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By Allan Wheeler, July 5, 2007 at 4:58 pm Link to this comment

When is the American public going to wake up to the fact that WE ARE THE INVADERS. WE ARE THE OCCUPIERS. Under other conditions, under another government, those fighting against the US would be called FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Let us never forget that we are the aggressors. And let us all be ashamed of our government’s duplicity and corruption.

So what can we do when the front-runner for the Dem. nomination voted to be the invading nation and does not have the courage or leadership potential to just admit to having made a mistake. If that person wasn’t smart enough to understand what she was voting for, how can we trust her to lead this nation out of the swamp? How can we believe ANYTHING she says?

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By Robert, July 5, 2007 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If they want to attack us here in the US, they certainly don’t have to wait until we leave Iraq, and then “follow us home”. As demonstrated on 9/11/2001, they already know where we live.

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By DMK, July 5, 2007 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

I think Zena has hit the nail on the head. We had special forces going in and out of Iraq under cover of darkness long before Bush/Cheney got the bright idea to invade Iraq. I can not believe that special forces could not have taken out Saddam very easily. But no, Bush had to look like the great liberator. You can not reason with the stupid or the evil so we are cooked until we can get rid of them or get the American people to come to their senses and demand they both be impeached.

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By Zena, July 5, 2007 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When a man takes over the most Democratic country in the world and starts dismantling the democracy piece by piece by violating and dishonoring his oaths and promises, and flaunts and thumbs his nose at the laws and constitution, he is a PeRFECT example of a domestic TERRORIST.

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By vet240, July 5, 2007 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“If we were to quit Iraq before the job is done, the terrorists we are fighting would not declare victory and lay down their arms. They would follow us here, home,” Bush told a crowd.

Are you saying that you believe that they won’t come here as long as we’re in Iraq? 

Are you stupid? Regardless of the situation in Iraq our enemies in the form of non-government terrorists will attack us where-ever they can. Whether we fight them there or somewhere else isn’t going to matter.

What we have been trying to tell you and chainey and your idiot self-serving friends is that Iraq is not a final battlefield, unless we insist on staying until we destroy our country with the most massive debt in our history by throwing all our wealth into Iraq. In the mean time your friends at Haliburton and in the oil industry will always be rich.

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By vet240, July 5, 2007 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

bu$h and his cohorts have always talked like the “Terrorists” are a cohesive recognizable group that can be defeated in a final battle.

NOT! Terrorists have no known identifiable marks. They come from all walks of life and life styles. Granted almost all are Muslim.

We will not win in Iraq. We must win by becoming more resilient. We have to fight with much smaller more agile units. We cannot afford to face this type of enemy with a classic military strategy. The financial burden will break us! We have to learn how to kill the terrorist with a one dollar round, not with a one thousand dollar round.

bu$h has never had to live a day without funds, usually someone elses, but never-the-less he has no conception of the bank roll being finite!

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By Zena, July 5, 2007 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bush is a terrorist. An American terrorist. He has always coluded with criminals because he IS a criminal. I have to wonder; Did Bush have him murdered because he knew too much? That he might spill the beans to the American people?

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By QuyTran, July 5, 2007 at 1:51 pm Link to this comment

If we withdraw now lots of our troops and innocent Iraqis will surely be saved ! Who’re hell the terrorists ? They’re hiding in the Whore House !

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