#84325 by Paolo
    I’m not even going to go into the “In a free society, in which the state has no role in education,” argument. Homeschooling, collective home schooling and private schools are an option. Otherwise, look at Europe.
    It is utterly cut and dried. There is education and there is religious indoctrination. The duty of education is to inform kids of the facts, to treat sexuality as a clinical and psychological issue. The educators should then address the various views surrounding sex, even handedly and objectively.
  The kids parents and maybe church should then hammer in whatever sort of morality they see fit.

Dear Frikken Kids (comment #84259)

I hesitate to write, since the article has been moved off the home page, but what the heck ... a good chuckle a day has to be acknowledged.

Your right, independent scientific studies backed up by peer review give credibility to any issue. Well, any issue that doesn’t challenge the status quo.

You might find this interesting:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Richards/byron36.htm
“The FDA, emboldened by its transformation into a drug company, has embarked upon an anti-American plan of interfering with business and intentionally eliminating various dietary supplement companies from the market.”

The various dietary supplements they’re talking about are vitamins. Not chemicals, or chemical additives, but vitamins.

No peer review science here ...
Just ... uh, money?

“Given time, I could probably find hundreds (if not thousands) of web sites detailing alien abductions, ghost orbs, and miracles.  Given that this material is out there in such abundance doesn’t lend it even the slightest bit of credibility.”

This one made me chuckle.
I have never been abducted by an alien, seen a ghost orb, or experienced a miracle. But that doesn’t mean I have the right to tell someone who believes they have ... they haven’t.

How the heck do I know?

Suppose a young man comes to his parents and says “I’m gay.”
But the parents don’t want him to be, so they say “No your not.”
To which he might respond, “How the heck do you know?”

This one made me laugh out loud!
“Peer-reviewed double-blinded repeatable results matter more than
all the ... personal experience ... in the world.”
[Thanks ... I needed that]

Of course I have to completely disagree, as would any thinking person. I’m sure you’ve had “personal experience” I have not had. Wouldn’t I be the most arrogant person in the world if I said to you ...
No you haven’t!

Regarding my challenge, it’s still out there, if you’re not afraid to try it.

However, recommending someone cut the salt out of their diet could prove fatal ... the body needs salt. And, living with the results of omitting a chemical additive from the diet of a pre-schooler, who doesn’t know the difference argues the placebo effect. But that falls back into that personal experience thing.

In any case, when the independent scientific studies backed up by peer reviewed double blinded repeatable results giving credibility to the dangers of ingesting aspartame, finally force the FDA to take it off the market, I know you will be one of the first to demand we listen to the science!

Thanks again.

As a libertarian, I have to point out the inherent conflict involved in any system of mandatory, state-sponsored indoctrination/education.

Personally, I don’t have any problem with children being taught about homosexuality, STDs, or contraception. But I understand the perspective of other parents who want these issues addressed in a different forum or a different context. Whose personal point of view, whose opinion, will become the government schools’ officially sanctioned truth? Whose opinion will be rammed down the throats of those who disagree?

In a free society, in which the state has no role in education, individuals would be free to teach controversial subjects in a manner they see fit. Schools could cater to specific groups in society, whether they be Catholics, Jews, Mormons, or atheists.

In sex education, as in ALMOST ALL areas of knowledge, there is no such thing as a single, “right” way of thinking. Yet, by its very nature, a state-sponsored institution inevitably makes such choices. In the past, these institutions openly endorsed the Protestant Christian viewpoint, ruthlessly suppressing Catholics, Jews, and (especially) Native Americans.

What we tend to get nowadays is a bland and confusing mixture of views of various pressure groups. We have pressure-group sponsored instruction in condom usage, but we also have “abstinence first” mixed in, because both viewpoints have enough political muscle to get their viewpoints heard. Small minority viewpoints need not apply. 

In our system of mandatory youth indoctrination camps (aka Public Schools), such conflicts are unavoidable and unsolvable. It’s just a matter of whose pressure group is most effective at any given moment.

Louise, thanks for the thoughtful reply - all to often the slightest criticisms on this site are met with ridiculous ad hominem attacks.  Just last week I was called a bigot for linking to a joke site.

I do stand by my comment and here’s why.  I specified that the the anti-aspartame crowd hasn’t swayed the scientific community and when declaring a food additive dangerous, that’s all that really matters.  It doesn’t matter how much anecdotal evidence somebody might have, if the food additive cannot be proven to have adverse effects in properly designed and controlled experiments meeting the requirements of peer-reviewed science, then the additive isn’t dangerous.  (I know there is some controversy regarding some aspartame studies but they are blown out of proportion most of the time).

Regarding your challenge, instead of eliminating aspartame, one could challenge people to eliminate salty foods, or to eliminate sugar, or any other additive on the contention that it will make them feel better.  Without question, some people will feel better just because they think they have made a change that will have that effect.  The placebo effect is very strong. 

Given time, I could probably find hundreds (if not thousands) of web sites detailing alien abductions, ghost orbs, and miracles.  Given that this material is out there in such abundance doesn’t lend it even the slightest bit of credibility. 

While a small portion of the population does have an adverse reaction to aspartame (the same way a small portion of the population has adverse reactions to almost any food additive), aspartame is perfectly safe for almost everybody.

Don’t rely on a government agency…rely on science.  Peer-reviewed double-blinded repeatable results matter more than all the anecdotes, personal experience and conspiracy theories in the world.

Dear Frikken Kids (comment #84182)

I’ve read your comments enough to know you are a thoughtful, intelligent person. Perhaps one of those lucky few who never reacts adversely to the chemicals in your diet.

I have no wish to turn this into a discussion of the virtues of aspartame, because I frankly don’t believe the stuff has any!

As far as our food being safer now than it has ever been in the history of the world, I wouldn’t know ... I’m not THAT old.

Years ago, one of my children developed serious hyperactivity. [that was before it became fashionable to label kids ADD and drug them] His pediatrician, being one of those old fashioned types who felt determining the cause was more important than treating the symptoms, suggested we start monitoring his diet.

Reactions were noted following every meal and snack. Eventually we were able to target the cause, Red Dye 40.

That led to a life-time habit of reading labels. ANYTHING with RD 40 was eliminated, and the kid went through his child-hood happy and normal, except we discovered he had severe reactions to bee-stings. Point being kids [or adults] who react to anything are more likely to react to other things.

Someone asked me once why I read every label. I responded with ... to see what’s in this stuff. To which she responded ... The government would never allow anything dangerous in our food.

Right. The same government that favors abstinence over sex-education. The same government that would never neglect our wounded troops, the epidemic of AIDS, or allow a war to be fought based on a lie. The same government that delights in reminding us we don’t want big government while they explode the size of government ... and, well you get the picture.

It really is up to us you know.

Anyway, next time you get tired of listening to someone complain about their aches and pains, or dizziness, fatigue, ear-ringing, swelling, weakness, or weight gain, ask them if they consume diet products with aspartame. If they do challenge them to eliminate them from their diet for one month and see what happens. It’s also in most kids vitamins and liquid medicine.

Maybe I should have said, “That was back before “frankenfood” when you could eat fast food without worrying about a potential reaction, or damaging your health.”

Irregardless, I stand behind what I said. I’ve seen to much personal proof to simply rely on what a government agency tells me.

Michael Rivero http://www.whatreallyhappened.com has had some excellent posts on the subject of aspartame, Monsanto and frankenfood in general.

And there are hundreds of links on the web!

Sorry, I ment to say: the actions of groups and people opposed to honest and accurate sex educations, and candid discussions of human sexuality will ensure continued misery for those who do not conform to silly concepts of “normal”.

Louise, good post except for one thing - that little aspartame jab.  I know this is off topic, but for more than thirty years aspartame conspiracy theorists have been claiming that it causes everything from athlete’s foot to brain tumors.  In those thirty years, they haven’t produced evidence to convince the scientific community that it is dangerous.  Food has never - in the history of the world - been safer to eat than it is for the generations now living.

Louise thatyou for your comment.  I too celebrate gay, and in general human rights.  My brother who was 13 months younger than I, died of AIDS about 12 years ago.  He was exposed to HIV around 1984 or 85.  He was exposed because of a lack of understanding etc.  I was the first of my family to go to University (we live in a very small remote rural community in Canada), my brother followed the year after I entered the University of Manitoba.  No one knew he was gay. Not I, not my mom, not my other brother (who it turns out was also gay), no one.  After finally leaving the sexually repressed back woods where we grew up, my brother experiencing for the first time sexual liberation and was foolish and ignorant.  He tested positive for HIV about one year after movin to the big city.

Had my brother been free to express himself he might still be alive today.  I blame intolerance and failure to acceptance the “other” for my brothers death.  I lay this blame squarely on the shoulders of religion, and in particular christianity.

The actions of this school board merely ensures that more kids will die like my brother - in misery and pain, disfigured, and dead.

Good for that school board; they are in for a fight.

  It is a shame that Wilhelm Reich lost credibility with the general scientific community, (whether his later work is valid or not.)His book “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” is so absolutely pertinent to the current Christian Right movement.
  For those unfamiliar, his basic thesis was that the Nationalists could transmute ordinary individuals into sadists, without any contriton over their actions, on a grand scale through sexual repression. He tied sexual repression with obedience complexes and called the result of this mass scale repression “emotional plague.”
  The publication of this book led to him fleeing Nazi Germany. His works were burned by the Nazis and by the FDA. Yes, the FDA burned his books publicly in the 1950s, including “the Mass Psychology of Fascism.”.

Years back, when I still had teens and pre-teens running in and out of the house, AIDS entered the world.

Of course it was a “gay” disease, so the more righteous among us were dragged kicking and screaming to the subject of condoms.

But I guess I’m not particularly righteous, because I felt the kids needed to know. Lots of funny stuff happened.

Like the day we made a trip to the Drugstore to see what condoms were. The kids giggled, or asked serious and stupid questions, some of which I could answer, and made their selections. My son was uncomfortable [he was fourteen] but not near so much as the poor clerk who helped us.

That was back in the days when an adult who wanted to inform their kids was not automatically labeled pervert.
Sometimes I miss the good old days.

Later, after the kids had opened their selections and we had a sorta serious discussion on safe sex.
[I say sorta, cause kids get bored easily]
They filled their condoms with water and we had a great water fight.

A couple of days later, I took the kids to Mickey D’s.
[That was back when the food was still aspartame free and safe to eat]
Posted on the drive-through window, a sign said, “Condiments on request”
The twelve year-old squealed in delight, “You were right mom, it is important!”
“What?”
“Look, they’re giving out free condoms if you ask. I’ll bet they save a lot of lives! Isn’t that just great?”

We all had a good laugh, then went and had her eyes checked.

That very fun summer ended sadly when we found out someone we knew had died of AIDS. We didn’t know he was gay. Nobody did. He was afraid to tell anyone. Perhaps had he believed society would accept him he might have found a true companion, instead of settling for one night stands cloaked in anonymity, and be alive today.

I celebrate gay rights. Speak up and come out!
It may save your life.

Interestingly enough, when Bush left Texas to fuck up the rest of the nation he left a state that had the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the country…well done Georgie, you moron.

Felicity posted: “The poor young teacher who got stuck teaching the class walked into the faculty room one day and blurted out, “What’s a dildo?””

What kind of education system engages/allows instructors who know little or nothing about the subject they’re “teaching?” Oh yes, the kind of system that is controlled by a “board” of politically correct, narrow-minded, holier-than-thou do-gooders whose competence to actually sit on a “board” likely matches the competence of an ignorant teacher to teach.

The ONLY responsible, sensible, honest approach to teaching human sexuality is described by Frikken Kids (#83938).

I suspect many parents are so terrified of being accused of incest or sexual interference that they’d rather their children learn about sex in the back seat of some sedan. I wonder how many more decades/centuries it will take for ADULTS to act like ADULTS about human sexuality.

Any kid of mine - male or female - gay or straight - active or inactive - will, by the age of puberty, have been exposed to the birds & bees biology of sex, the psycho-social aspects of sex, and how to ENJOY his/her sexuality SAFELY and with RESPECT for their partners (no matter what their sexual orientation or preferences). My child & I, when the time is appropriate, will watch “porno” together. We will discuss what turns us “on” and “off.” The use of condoms and other birth control and safer-sex methods will be discussed, and both boys and girls will KNOW how to use them. Get a damned dildo or carrot and TEACH both sexes how to put a condom on and what to do with it when they’re finished!

Masturbation, if desired, will be encouraged and privacy will be assured. ALL QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY. Of course, there will NEVER be any actual sex between us but there will be none of this nonsense about never seeing one another naked or being, in any way, ashamed of our bodies and sexual functioning.

In my opinion, any parent who does NOT commit to such an education for their child is NOT competent to parent that child in areas of human sexuality. And they should bloody well not have the right to prevent or interfere with properly trained educators from doing so.

That’s the way it will be in my house. Any kids in my care will NOT be IGNORANT and UNSAFE while I’m alive.

I remember the ‘opponents’ of Sex Ed. when I was teaching. Even though they had no intention of allowing their 5th graders to take the class, they had plenty of imput in setting up the guidelines for the program.

The class could only be taught by single women - no married women and absolutely no men, married or single.  Explain it to me and we’ll both know.

At the end of each class period students were allowed to turn in ‘sex’ questions on little pieces of carefully folded paper - so no one else could ‘see’.  The poor young teacher who got stuck teaching the class walked into the faculty room one day and blurted out, “What’s a dildo?”  We told her to ask the people who set up the guidelines for the program.

I couldn’t have said it better than Rae:

“Doesn’t it even dawn on these dunces in charge that the majority of KIDS at 15 years and younger know more about gender identity, human sexuality and condoms than do the members of the board, and certainly more than those venerable meatheads did when they were 15!!!”

My first child was born just a few months ago. Whether she turns out gay or straight, vanilla or kink, I truly wish her the best and most satisfying sex life imaginable.  I will tell her no lies regarding sex/sexual identity. I would kill myself before trying to make her feel guilty about sex or allowing her to venture into the world without knowing how to protect herself from STDs.  By the time she’s 15, if she is interested and wants to know, then she will probably have gotten enough information from me that she could teach sex ed.

Truthdig readers, what I’m most curious about is the No Child Left Behind Act and how Montgomery county will deal with the loss of federal funding.  Montgomery county Maryland is one of the more wealthy in the country so maybe they don’t need federal dollars….What am I talking about?  See the following provision of the NCLBA that I did not know was in there until recently..anyone else out there aware of this provision and its operations?

(and more including provisions governing school prayer http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/pg112.html)

SEC. 9526. GENERAL PROHIBITIONS.

(a) PROHIBITION- None of the funds authorized under this Act shall be used —

(1) to develop or distribute materials, or operate programs or courses of instruction directed at youth, that are designed to promote or encourage sexual activity, whether homosexual or heterosexual;

(2) to distribute or to aid in the distribution by any organization of legally obscene materials to minors on school grounds;

(3) to provide sex education or HIV-prevention education in schools unless that instruction is age appropriate and includes the health benefits of abstinence; or

(4) to operate a program of contraceptive distribution in schools.
______

Yes, this is in there…read it for yourself.  This is what our federal government has become…Uncle Sam has become Father Sam…

Who should govern what the schools teach anyway…the federal government?  or should local school boards comprised of those elected by the children’s parents who actually attend make the decisions…I lean toward the latter…and they should have the ability to determine curricula without being essentially blackmailed by the federal government….

The modern day GOP may claim to be the party of small and limited government, but this is clearly not the case…they want to control everything including bedroom acts…if they truly believe that god will execute a Sodom and Gamora on the US…then their worry about teaching the acceptance of homosexuality makes sense….though I find it deplorable that modern day policies are driven by fear…the fear of the unseen and the fear of a story that is clearly mythological (anyone who brings up this story to you…make sure to ask them what Lott did with his two daughters after the city was destroyed due to the wickedness of its inhabitants and see how they react….if you don’t know the story…incest…that is clearly better than homosexuality…or so it would seem in the eyes of Yahwe…)

ichtus - why not simply have a little honesty about human sexuality, human behaviour, and human phsycololgy?

Oh I know why not, because the truth shows the bible to be a lie, and judeo-christian-islamism to be crap.

Honesty will bring freedom.  Freedom will destroy the cash cow of religion, and send that horde of freeloaders: priests, ministers, popes, imams, rabbis, muhlas, and the other self proclaimed prophets to the trash heap of history.

I suppose we can’t actually expect anything more from these people who see, that if kids know about sex, they might not be such willing and easy prey.  I always suspect that behind the facade of religious and sexual piety hides a potential pedophile.

Hell when I was 13 I knew what I wanted stick where in whom.  Condoms? You’ve got to be kidding me!  No one ever talked about them, and when they did it was in hushed tonen.  It almost seemed like sex was bad, but my god if you used a condom you were some kind of sexual deviant/pervert/queer.

Let’s face it, the fact is, this is only a debate because we might teach girls about sex.  We wouldn’t want our little virginal daughters to actually enjoy guilt free orgasms.  If they enjoyed sex they will surely become cock hungry cum sucking whores, sluts, and worse. As for boys, well they will just be boys.  Boys who will become easy prey for girls who know about the joys of sex.

Even talking about homosexuality in inclusive nonjudgmental terms means you are gay.  I mean if the idea of two men having sex (two women however is a great turnon, we need more of that!) doesn’t turn your stomach, you really want a hard cock up your ass.

Why not throw in a dildo and a pocket pussy?  Why not allow that masturbation is basic to humaness?  Why not acknowledge that sex is natural?

I suppose toy guns, atvs, monster trucks, and violent video games are OK for the kid’s toy box?

The “kids” must just be killing themselves laughing at the neanderthals in charge of their “education.”

Doesn’t it even dawn on these dunces in charge that the majority of KIDS at 15 years and younger know more about gender identity, human sexuality and condoms than do the members of the board, and certainly more than those venerable meatheads did when they were 15!!!

ALL surveys of high school kids reveal CONCLUSIVELY that not only do most kids know all about the “birds and the bees” BUT ARE ACTUALLY HAVING SEX that suits them - hetero, homo, bi and everything inbetween - whether home, school and church are teaching “abstinence” or not. (Abstinence: the only TRUE PERVERSION).

It’s hard to believe that those set in authority over us are so naive, so gutless, so dim-witted, so politically correct, so myopically short sighted as to put their children’s very lives at risk by playing footsie with these issues.

The only valid education about human sexualities is one that tells the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and nothing BUT THE TRUTH. Everything else is fraud and should be prosecuted as such.

Clearly the education is more critically required at BOARD level than in the classroom.