#84732 by cyrena:

It’s not like this is a “novel” idea. It’s pretty much what we expect our Congress and other officials to do as a matter of course.

So take it up with your congressman.
If you’re not happy with his or her reasons for supporting Israel (and foreign aid in general), do what you think you need to do. You won’t get anywhere being argumentative with me.
==========================

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006235785

Israeli Scientists Develop Heart Muscle With Embryonic Stem Cells

January 24, 2007

Haifa, Israel (AHN) - In a breakthrough development, Israeli researchers have successfully created new heart muscle with a built-in blood supply by using human embryonic stem cells.

Lead researchers professors Shulamit Levenberg and Lior Gepstein say they have developed the heart muscle “by seeding a sponge-like, three-dimensional plastic scaffold with heart muscle cells and blood vessel cells produced by human embryonic stem cells, along with cells called embryonic fibroblasts.”
-----------------
It doesn’t take a genius to understand that in today’s globally interconnected economies, American access to technologies such as described above is beneficial for this country in multiple ways. Along the lines of “the good you do comes back to you” - the Pentium chip in your PC was designed in Israel. Try and calculate the economic and cultural dynamism generated by that one contribution to the US (and global) economy.

#84196 by lilmamzer on 7/05 at 7:49 am

Ah...lilmamzer, what a cruel paradox that you would point me in the direction of the Big Pharma connection to Israel, as being some sort of “contribution” on behalf of Israel.

Sorry, no offense intended, but I’m just really speaking from a totally pragmatic side of things. In reality, what do we the taxpayers get from Israel, that we are not capable of coming up with ourselves?

I mean, I think that’s a fair enough question, that should be considered separately from all the rhetoric.

Why would you interpret such a question from me as some “know it all response”, when in fact it was a very simplistic observation. What, do we really get for our money? Because, it’s a LOT of money. And, we obviously need that money ourselves. So, if one were looking around at a way to re-assess the budget, and try to prevent what is a rapidly approaching flat-line to our economy, wouldn’t it make sense to at least “consider” what the American people actually get in return for those billions that are wired over to Israel? (or however they get there)

It’s not like this is a “novel” idea. It’s pretty much what we expect our Congress and other officials to do as a matter of course. But for some reason, if anyone brings this up in respect to Israel, then we all of a sudden become “anti-semite” when that doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the money.

I’m not any happier about the money pouring into Iraq, or many of the other regimes that the Mob operates. But, you have to admit, we’ve been handing it over to Israel for decades now.

And, it really is an insult to point to the Pharmies as anything more than the ripoff of the American people that it is, whether they are doing it in Israel or doing it here.

colonist (n.)—member of a group of foreign settlers (as in Zionist colonist)

“P.T., your clumsy use of language is mirrored in your poor grasp of history.”

lol.  That from a swinish illiterate

Because you’re a coward.  Like the Israelis me.
There. Fixed it.

As I said, Anytime!

“If you are going to speak your own language, why bother to communicate with other’s?”

lol.  This from someone who cannot distinguish between the Palestinians and the British Mandate.

By the way, the Palestinians (Canaanites) were in Palestine long before the Khazar Turks (that is Zionists) and Jews.

#84647 by P. T.:

Because you’re a coward.  Like the Israelis.  I’m available now !!!  Anytime !!!

Just call this toll-free number. Operators standing by.
=====================

Because you’re a coward.  Like the Israelis me.

There. Fixed it.

=====================

P.T., your clumsy use of language is mirrored in your poor grasp of history. You will never be able to delegitimize the self-determination of the indigenous, native Jews of Israel, formerly Palestine, and, preceding that, Israel (and Judah).

#84660 by P. T.:

They’re colonists.  Try to pay attention.  And don’t make me repeat myself !!!

“You’ve got an overdeveloped sense of vengeance. It’s going to get you into trouble someday” - Count Rugen

By the Way, speaking of words. The use of the term Palestinian to refer to the Arabs of West bank and Gaza is a less than skillful semantic. Palestinian is the Latin form of “Philistine.”
Not only does Philistine refer to the “heathen” slaughtered by the Hebrews in the Bible, but translates as “invader.”

P.T.
Well you are alone there, I think.
If you are going to speak your own language, why bother to communicate with other’s? Just talk to your imaginary friends, they probably speak your language.
Link a dictionary definition of colonist that fits the Israelis or Zionists or whatever.
A colony is an annex to an existing state. The vaguest definition of colonist is a settler of a new land.
Maybe you are referring to Abraham?
When Chaldea conquered Israel, they let the Israelites stay and the nation was an autonomous region under their empire. They had an autonomous state under the umbrella of the Persian Empire. They got in a war witht he Romans and were given sold into slavery under the Roman Empire.
Jews returned under the rule of the Caliphate and remained at least in part through the ottoman empire, but without any hope of an autonomous state.
The League of Nations stated that the British Mandate was to cultivate a Jewish homeland in 1922.  The Brits deferred to the Arabs because of business interest with the Saudis.

#84683 by P. T. on 7/06 at 7:38 pm
(66 comments total)

You don’t need to be sure.  I am sure.

We speak English, not Hamasish or Hezbollahish or whatever terror-apoligist dialect comes out of your mouth.
----------------

native - adjective - Being such by birth or origin:
a native Israeli

native - adjective - of indigenous origin, growth, or production

native - noun - a person born in a particular place or country: a native of Israel

“I am not sure you know what it means.”

You don’t need to be sure.  I am sure.

#84660 by P. T. on 7/06 at 6:33 pm
“They’re colonists.  Try to pay attention.  And don’t make me repeat myself !!!”

“You keep using that word. I am not sure you know what it means."-Inigo Montoya

They’re colonists.  Try to pay attention.  And don’t make me repeat myself !!!

#84648 by P. T.:

By the Poles, Russians, etc. aren’t Palestinians.

AND, their kids, born in Israel, are native to the land - they ARE the indigenous people.

#84648 by P. T.:

By the Poles, Russians, etc. aren’t Palestinians.

They are now.

The Poles, Russians, etc. are immigrants to Palestines.  Try to pay attention.

By the Poles, Russians, etc. aren’t Palestinians.

“What makes you think I won’t be there waiting for you to prove your theory of non-sovereignty?”

Because you’re a coward.  Like the Israelis.  I’m available now !!!  Anytime !!!

Hizbollah = 2.
Israel = 0.

#84568 by P. T.:

It wasn’t sympathy that led them to give away the Palestinian people’s land.

The Jews are the Palestinians. The “Palestinian” Arabs are just local holdover Egyptian and Jordanian Arabs.

“Palestine” was the name the Romans forced on Israel after they conquered and occupied it in a failed attempt to separate the Jewish nation from its land and the land from its people.

The only sovereign nation in Israel was Jewish. Never Arab, and never called “Palestine”.
Ever.

The Brits never gave away anyone’s land but the Jews’. You don’t know your history.

#84572 by P. T.:

The Israelis are afraid to let me in.

Sure they are. You’d brown your pants before you even got off the plane.
----------------------

You’ll have to stand in for them, lilmamzer.

What makes you think I won’t be there waiting for you to prove your theory of non-sovereignty?
----------------------

But Hizbollah is doing a fine job.

1500 Hezbollah terrorists dead and $1.5 billion damage to Lebanon’s infrastructure.
Yeah, they’re doing just great.

ZIONIST COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS

Great article !!!

Click http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

The Israelis are afraid to let me in.  You’ll have to stand in for them, lilmamzer.  lol.  But Hizbollah is doing a fine job.

I said the Zionists are colonists.  The Zionist entity is a client.

“The treatment of the Jews by the British, under the influence of the Arabs created the sympathy in the UN which was instrumental in generating the outcome of the vote.”

It wasn’t sympathy that led them to give away the Palestinian people’s land.  The world doesn’t work that way.  If it were sympathy, Britain, the U.S., etc. would have put their own land on offer.

#84359 by P. T.:

It’s a colonist, client entity in Palestine and dependent on handouts.

If you believe this, shouldn’t your argument be with posters such as Cyrena, Ernest Canning, Robert, and so many others who assert that it is the United States which is the colony of the Zionists in Israel. You know, the tail-wagging-the-dog bullshit.

Which is it?

P.T.:
You keep referring to Israel as a colony. A colony is an annex to a state or mother country. Exactly what is Israel’s mother country. Who is doing the colonizing? The Ottoman Empire?

#84134 by great_satan:

That’s sort of how the mess all started. The UN was particularly sympathetic to the Zionist movement in 1947 because the Palestinians sent thousands of Jewish refugees back into Nazi occupied Europe during the war.

You really should go further back to the anti-Jewish pogroms in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929 when the local Arabs slaughtered hundreds of members of the Jewish communities in those cities who had lived there for generations (certainly longer than the relatively recent Arab arrivals from Egypt and Arabia).

The leader of these massacres was the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Al Amin Husseini, who became an ally of Hitler during the war and had his picture taken with the Nazi leader - it’s a famous image for a number of reasons, obviously, symbolically and historically.

Husseini’s grand-nephew was none other than Yasser Arafat, the Egyptian terrorist who carried on his uncle’s tradition of killing Jews wherever he could find them - Israel, Munich, Europe......

#84359 by P. T.:

Sovereign?  lol.  It’s a colonist, client entity in Palestine and dependent on handouts.

======================================
Sovereign: adjective - Self-governing; independent: a sovereign state.
======================================

You are free to challenge the sovereignty of the Jews in their homeland as much as you like.

I would just like to see you try and do it in Israel by any means other than flapping your gums. Shooting your mouth off would, of course, be tolerated.

Please do challenge Israeli sovereignty in a forceful and demonstrative manner. Try using guns or bombs or just rasslin’ some of them evil Zionists to the ground. That would be a good test of Jewish sovereignty.

#84228 by P. T.

my first statement was vague, the second clarifies it. The British blockade was responding to the Arab interests. The people we now call Palestinians never had the authority to deny the Jewish immigration themselves.
The Blockade created the Ha’apala and the Ha’apala is the conflict that gave way to the UN recognition of Israel as a sovereign state. The treatment of the Jews by the British, under the influence of the Arabs created the sympathy in the UN which was instrumental in generating the outcome of the vote.

Sovereign?  lol.  It’s a colonist, client entity in Palestine and dependent on handouts.

#84092 by P. T.:

THE ZIONISTS THEN AND NOW DID NOT ACCEPT THEIR BORDERS.  WHETHER ONE THINKS ISRAEL IS SOVEREIGN OR RATHER A ZIONIST ENTITY, IT HAS ALWAYS PURSUED MORE LAND AND WATER.  IT (ESPECIALLY BEN GURION) ALSO WANTED ALL THE LAND TO THE LITANI RIVER.  THANKFULLY, HIZBOLLAH HAS DEFEATED THEM SO FAR.  THE PALESTINIANS MUST CONTINUE TO RESIST OCCUPATION AS IS THEIR RIGHT UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.  WE MUST WORK TO INTERNATIONALLY ISOLATE THE ZIONISTS (AN EFFORT THAT HAS BEEN GAINING GROUND).  THE STRUGGLE CONTINUES!

zionist racist fascist occupier whatever ( Y A W N )
--------------------------

WHETHER ONE THINKS ISRAEL IS SOVEREIGN OR RATHER A ZIONIST ENTITY

Israel is both sovereign and Zionist (by definition) as it is the national homeland of the Jewish people.

And rightfully and proudly so.

dialecticks, your latest post and the one that preceeded it say two different things.

#84111 by cyrena:

So, what does the US, in particular, need Israel for? What’s my money for? What do we “buy” from Israel, since all of her “exports” are guns and other “defense security” things.

You sound so sure of yourself. But you know nothing about what you write.

Just FYI, regarding this from you: “all of her “exports” are guns and other “defense security” things”:

One example of a major industry player based in Israel.....
http://www.tevapharm.com/about/
http://www.tevapharm.com/research/
http://www.tevapharm.com/pr/

AND.....

http://www.export.gov.il/Eng/_Lexicon/Articles.asp?Cat egoryID=346

A clearinghouse with links to Israeli exporters in the following industries:

Advertising and Promotion Products
Agricultural Inputs
Agricultural Projects
Air Conditioners
Arts and Crafts
Automotive Equipment
Aviation
Biotechnology
Books and Printed Materials
Business Development
Chemicals
Communication
Construction Inputs
Consumer Goods
Cosmetics
Defense
Dental Equipment
DIY
Educational Products
Electronics
Electro-Optics
Energy Equipment
Environmental Technology
Food
Food Processing Equipment
Healthcare/Medical Equipment
Household Cleaning Products
Household Items
Industrial and Consumer Goods
Jewelry
Logistics Services
Metals and Machinery
Military Equipment
Optics
Packaging
Pet Care
Pharmaceuticals
Plastics and Rubber
Produce
Professional Services
R&D;Projects
Religious Articles
Safety Equipment
Security
Seeds
Shoes
Software
Start-ups
Stationery
Telecommunications
Textiles
Toiletries
Toys and Games
Turnkey Projects
Veterinary

#84111 by cyrena:

Lilmam....I accept your claim that Palestine was never a “soverign” entity. So, since that term “give back” sort of set you off, I’m willing to re-word it.

You need to read what I actually wrote.

I said there was never Arab sovereignty in Israel, or, as the occupying Romans re-named her, “Palestine”, in a failed attempt to remove the Jewish identity of the land and its people.

Palestine is Israel, and was only a Jewish sovereign territory when it wasn’t occupied by foreign imperial powers. That is not a claim. It is fact.
------------------------

Israel should cease the Apartheid, and allow for her neighbors to live in peace.

You have it precisely backwards.
The Arabs should let Israel live in peace and end the Apartheid campaign against the Jews in all spheres - economic, political, cultural.
-------------------------

What do we “buy” from Israel, since all of her “exports” are guns and other “defense security” things.

Pharmaceuticals (ever hear of Teva? Real big in the industry), leading-edge data processing chips (including the Israeli-designed Intel Pentium processors and competing products from Motorola’s Israel labs)), electro-optical imaging equipment used in medical diagnostics, agricultural products and technologies, voice and data communications technology including software and hardware standards and protocols, among other products and services. Outside of the US, Israel has more start-ups listed on Nasdaq than any other country. We buy lots of valuable products and services from Israel. And Israel wouldn’t need to have a large defense-products industry if the Arabs decided to end their perpetual war against the Jews.
----------------------

Do you honestly believe that a now informed US population couldn’t vote to cut the handouts that Israel depends on?

I believe the major public opinion polls which show increasing support for Israel in the US. And yes, it is because the people are, in fact, informed. They just don’t agree with your Arab/Muslim Apartheid and bigoted anti-Israel positions.

#84153 by P.T.
Aliya Beth, or Ha’apala, was the beginning of the mass immigration to Palestine/Israel. The British Mandate prohibited all but a little immigration which was a fleeing of Nazi persecution. However the original terms for the mandate under the League of Nations did emphasize that the Jewish people should erect a Zionist state.
Once the holocaust was under way, the Brits had the authority to let them in or not and chose to not do so because they valued their relationship with the Saudis more than with the Jews. Why? One guess. Anyway, the Arabs in Palestine didn’t want the refugee/immigrants and the Saudis stuck up for them.
Many Palestinian Arabs had sympathy for the Jews.  Many sided with he Axis powers.
100,000 Jews made the trip from the beginning of the War until a couple of years thereafter. 50,000 wound up in British interment camps, a few thousand were drown, a few thousand made it not British Mandate Palestine. 40,000 just turned back. The British went so far as to escort at least one ship (The Exodus) back to Germany.
It should be noted that, in the late thirties, Hitler himself saw the immigration as a viable means of getting the Jews out of Europe and took to internment and killing them subsequently. Some Jews even sided with Hitler over the matter and sought his allegiance in fighting the British.

“The UN was particularly sympathetic to the Zionist movement in 1947 because the Palestinians sent thousands of Jewish refugees back into Nazi occupied Europe during the war.”

Nonsense.

#83986 by P. T.
“Yes, because the Zionist colonists must leave Palestine and return home to Poland or wherever.”

That’s sort of how the mess all started. The UN was particularly sympathetic to the Zionist movement in 1947 because the Palestinians sent thousands of Jewish refugees back into Nazi occupied Europe during the war.

“Back” to the local Arabs? They were never sovereign in all of recorded history in Israel. Not ever.

Israel should have given Gaza back to Egypt, from whence it came, but in 2005 gave up Gaza to the local Gaza Arabs. And what a mess they have made of it.

So much for your claim.

*******************************88
Lilmam....I accept your claim that Palestine was never a “soverign” entity. So, since that term “give back” sort of set you off, I’m willing to re-word it.

Israel should cease the Apartheid, and allow for her neighbors to live in peace. This would involve dealing with facts as they exist today, because it doesn’t much matter at this point, (does it) what the Arabs would or would not “agree to” in 1948.

Israel has backed itself into a corner, and created all of her own misery. And, that’s the way it will remain, until Israel has been totally isolated by the rest of the world, and finds that they need to “deal” from a position where all the guns, tanks, and bombs don’t really help them.

Maybe some mass boycotts, (of everything Israeli)or maybe the elimination of all the billions that flow into Israel from US, (the taypayers of the US)can finally level the playing field a bit.

Eliminating the billions of US funds that flow into Israel isn’t such a difficult thing to accomplish, once we eliminate the Israel Lobby from our own government. No more money for Israel, and we don’t need the “modern technology’ (we have our own) As a matter of fact, I can’t think of a single thing that Israel has to offer any of the world population, aside from the 1% of the Zionist population that reap the benefits.

So, what does the US, in particular, need Israel for? What’s my money for? What do we “buy” from Israel, since all of her “exports” are guns and other “defense security” things. Israel is the 4th largest exporter of weapons, but we’re the FIRST. So here again, what is Israel actually providing to us, as taypayers, for all of the billions that we shell out?

Maybe these are things that Israel should consider, in current realities. How many other nations is Israel pimping? Who else provides these billions? Where would their welfare checks come from, if not from US, or the US controlled UN?

Do you honestly believe that a now informed US population couldn’t vote to cut the handouts that Israel depends on? We could, and we can.

That’s the reality.

You seemed to want to make an argument not based on morality. It was your idea.

SEEMED?  YOUR’RE ASSUMING YOUR CONCLUSION.

You’re wrong. The Zionists then and now agreed in principle, and accepted in practice a two-state solution. The Arabs rejected it and launched the war to annihilate Israel in 1948. And the Arabs lost.

THE ZIONISTS THEN AND NOW DID NOT ACCEPT THEIR BORDERS.  WHETHER ONE THINKS ISRAEL IS SOVEREIGN OR RATHER A ZIONIST ENTITY, IT HAS ALWAYS PURSUED MORE LAND AND WATER.  IT (ESPECIALLY BEN GURION) ALSO WANTED ALL THE LAND TO THE LITANI RIVER.  THANKFULLY, HIZBOLLAH HAS DEFEATED THEM SO FAR.  THE PALESTINIANS MUST CONTINUE TO RESIST OCCUPATION AS IS THEIR RIGHT UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.  WE MUST WORK TO INTERNATIONALLY ISOLATE THE ZIONISTS (AN EFFORT THAT HAS BEEN GAINING GROUND).  THE STRUGGLE CONTINUES!

#84043 by P. T.:

WHY?

Because you seemed to want to make an argument not based on morality. It was your idea.

Quoting you: “ But for Zionists to claim morally superior rights than those of the indigenous Palestinian people is preposterous.”

You’re wrong. The Zionists then and now agreed in principle, and accepted in practice a two-state solution. The Arabs rejected it and launched the war to annihilate Israel in 1948. And the Arabs lost.
------------------------

Israel is sovereign.

REALLY?  WHAT ARE ITS BORDERS?

You don’t need to shout your rhetorical questions. Most of Israel’s borders are defined and mutually agreed upon by its neighbors - Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt. You know the map. The other territories are subject to negotiations, as set out in UN 242 and 338. I believe Israel should never allow the Golan to fall into Syrian hands again, but it seems the Israeli government has other ideas.
-----------------

THE NATIVE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO RESIST ZIONIST EXPANSIONISM LIKE THE PEOPLE OF SOUTHERN LEBANON DID, OR FACE MORE LAND GRABS.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews are natives, too. Born and raised in Israel. The ex-Jordanian non-Israeli Arabs legal claim to the land is tenuous at best. They ought to start behaving or risk losing their chance for sovereignty on as much as they can now. In the future there will likely be less available, and I for one will not blame the Israelis for doing what they need during wartime to protect themselves.

The “people of southern Lebanon” were hosting the terrorists of Arafat’s PLO in the 70’s and 80’s, and now they host Hezbollah. Both terror groups have attacked and killed thousands of Israeli civilians. Israel has no territorial ambitions for Lebanon but they do have legitimate security concerns, to put it lightly.

So keep morality out of it.

WHY?

Israel is sovereign.

REALLY?  WHAT ARE ITS BORDERS?

The local ex-Egyptian and ex-Jordanian Arabs are not.

They can choose to be sovereign next to Israel and coexist peacefully, or they can choose their current course of incessant violence aimed at genocide of the Jewish nation, in which case they will remain as they are.

It doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game.

THE NATIVE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO RESIST ZIONIST EXPANSIONISM LIKE THE PEOPLE OF SOUTHERN LEBANON DID, OR FACE MORE LAND GRABS.

#83994 by P. T.:

But for Zionists to claim morally superior rights than those of the indigenous Palestinian people is preposterous.

So keep morality out of it.

Israel is sovereign.

The local ex-Egyptian and ex-Jordanian Arabs are not.

They can choose to be sovereign next to Israel and coexist peacefully, or they can choose their current course of incessant violence aimed at genocide of the Jewish nation, in which case they will remain as they are.

It doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game.

#83984 by bud:

I still have the titles of my dad’s land (real estate), in what so called Israel,and we want that land back. We hve never sold it to anyone.IT IS OURS TO TAKE BACK.

So what’s it gonna be, “bud” - a bomb-belt or an AK47 for you? How many Jews do you think you’ll have to take out before you can find “your” property?

I was being tongue-in-cheek.  Obviously, everybody cannot be made to go back to wherever their ancestors are from.  That would be chaos.

But for Zionists to claim morally superior rights than those of the indigenous Palestinian people is preposterous.

“No, because Israel is a sovereign nation. It’s not going anywhere. Gaza and the other territories are not, and never have been.

Yes, because the Zionist colonists must leave Palestine and return home to Poland or wherever.

#83980 by P. T.:

In that case, the Zionist entity (a mess living on U.S. handouts) should be returned from the Zionist colonists back to Turkey, from whence it came.

No, because Israel is a sovereign nation. It’s not going anywhere. “Gaza” and the other territories are not, and never have been. The Israelis want the local Arabs to take responsibility for their own affairs and eventually assume sovereignty as good neighbors.

“Israel should have given Gaza back to Egypt, from whence it came, but in 2005 gave up Gaza to the local Gaza Arabs. And what a mess they have made of it.”

In that case, the Zionist entity (a mess living on U.S. handouts) should be returned from the Zionist colonists back to Turkey, from whence it came.

Even Hitler wanted peace.  The issue always is, peace on what terms.  Everybody wants peace.  More than peace though, the Zionist ruling class wants as much of the indigenous Palestinian people’s land and water as it thinks it can make off with.