Oh dear, and Michael showed such promise too:

#84061 by Michael Shaw on 7/04 at 5:15 pm
(170 comments total)

84021 Well ardee all I can say is you are showing your true colors, that you prefer republicans to democrats. No small wonder as to why you want a third party candidate. It makes sense since it’s obvious they are going to have a whole lot of trouble getting in there themselves. You want a republican victory even though that may very well mean a complete end to what little elements in our democracy still survive.

This is intellectual laziness of the highest order,and you should be very ashamed of it.
Michael I thought you were a better man than this, but Ive been disappointed before. As it happens, and for the record, I am a socialist, or rather see the ideal government as being an amalgam of socialism and capitalism, not unlike our Scandanavian brethren. Thus I certainly do not qualify as a GOP sympathiser, though you now seem to qualify as easily frustrated and not as clever as I once considered you to be, so sad.

My posts have carefully deliniated my reasons for leaning third party as well as my thoughts on Nader and the election. Yet you , unable to win a convert, resort to childishness rather than expounding anything more. Insult those with whom you disagree, whitewash the reasons given for third party sympathies, refuse to defend your loyalty to your Party with logic, yeah, thats the ticket....So sad.

84021 Well ardee all I can say is you are showing your true colors, that you prefer republicans to democrats. No small wonder as to why you want a third party candidate. It makes sense since it’s obvious they are going to have a whole lot of trouble getting in there themselves. You want a republican victory even though that may very well mean a complete end to what little elements in our democracy still survive.

I’d like to add to Ernest, I didn’t blame Nader entirely for the loss. I did say however Nader’s votes could have made a difference. He took a whole lot of progressive and liberal votes. I also said the election was stolen. I even said I liked Nader(and I do) and the idea of a strong third party.

In retrospect we could include Gore for losing some votes, but not the election. It took a corrupt Florida(and Ohio) State government and a right wing Supreme court to appoint Bush. My argument stands that now is not the time to be voting for a third party candidate for president. Not Bloomberg, not Nader or whoever else. And frankly I won’t until the neocons have their teeth pulled.

Regardless of our not agreeing, have a happy 4th. Here’s a little something to read about it.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/070407A.shtml

While I am usually am in agreement with most of Ardee’s and Michael Shaw’s comments, I must respectfully dissent from the view that Nader cost Gore the election.  It is a view that Gore actually lost the elections at the polls. 

Consider President Carter’s explanation why the Carter Center would not think of monitoring American elections, as it does in Third World nations around the globe.  “The American political system wouldn’t measure up to any sort of international standards....” Those standards require a “nonpartisan electoral commission or a trusted and nonpartisan official who will be responsible for organizaing and conducting the electoral process before, during and after the actual voting takes place..., uniformity in voting procedures, so that all citizens, regardless of their social or financial status, have equal assurance that their votes are cast in the same way and will be tabulated with equal accuracy....” To this I would add the essential need for transparancy and a means for independent observers to verify not only the equal opportunity for democratic participation but that every vote lawfully cast is duly counted.

Turning back to Florida 2000, the Voter News Service exit-poll proclaimed Gore the winner by a whopping 7.3% margin--some 435,000 votes. Instead of a nonpartisan electoral commission, the electoral process before, during, and after the vote was in the hands of a governor who just happened to be the President’s brother and a Secretary of State who served as a co-chair of the Bush/Cheney campaign, a dual role which Ohio Sec. of State Ken Blackwell would take on four years later.  Where the Carter Center international standards call for a uniformity of voting and vote counting procedures, Florida was a crazy patchwork quilt of disparate voting systems, where people of color living in impoverished countes voted on obsolete and poorly designed equipment that ensured a significant reduction in the number of votes cast that would be counted.

Both affluent and mostly white Tallahassee County and impoverished and mostly black Gadsden County voted on optical scanners.  In Gadsen one in every twelve votes were “spoiled"--discarded without being counted either because of an “undervote” where no vote was recorded for President, or an overvote, where the scanner reads more than one vote for President.  Tallahassee did not lose a single vote.  As explained by Greg Palast, “Gadsen used optial scanners to read the paper ballots.  Any stray mark...and zap!--the vote was trashed....In upscale Tallahassee, they used paper ballots....The difference is as simple as Black and white.  Make a stray mark on a Tallahassee ballot and zap!--the ballot returns to the voter.”

To this, Steven Freeman & Joel Bleifuss add in “Was the 2004 Election Stolen?” “Counties and precincts more likely to support Bush disproportionately had technologies where errors would be brought to voters’ attention so they could be corrected.  Counties and precincts with large African American populations...had technologies where ballots would predictably go uncounted.  The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights...study concludes that although blacks made up 11% of Florida’s voting population, they cast 54% of the uncounted ballots.”

Freeman & Bleifuss reveal that in all the presidential primaries & general elections between 1964 and 2004 there were only six marked by massive discrepancies between the official count and exit-polls.  Each of the six involved discrepancies that favored the mainstream Republican candidate, and in five of the six, the candidate was named Bush.

“The people who cast the votes decide nothing.  The people who count the votes decide everything."--Joseph Stalin.

“God bless America.  (You just keep praying, and leave the vote counting to us)."--Diebold ad.

#83958 by Michael Shaw on 7/04 at 10:14 am
(167 comments total)

83856 ardee my argument to that would be why place republicans back in power where they can further decimate the constitution and give themselves more draconian authority? I’ll grant you the democrats have failed in their first 100 days but most of that was because of republicans blocking them.

I responded in great length and with great erudition ( hee) and was 169 characters too long so it was all lost....damn! Heres the brief sumup.....

Firstly, when democrats were in the minority for six years they could do nothing, now in the majority and they still can do nothing...except continue the oil subsidies they swore to eliminate. That they could do.

At least when the GOP is in power it pisses people off, this is a good thing. With the Dems you get the same crap but folks feel better because it is not so blatantly obvious..not good enough for me, you betcha!

The Libby investigation was ongoing long before the Dems came to power and they had nothing whatsoever to do with Fitzgeralds case. Besides, he still goes free so what good are they to me? Bush commuted his sentence and he will be pardoned on Bushs’ way out.

You like Nader but wish he hadnt run. I detest him as an egotistical and selfish son of a bitch and voted for him twice. He and anyone else born here and over 35 can run, my vote belongs to me and I cast it for the best qualified candidate, period. As to Florida, well I blame Gore and Donna Brazile and if Albert had just won his own damn state Florida wouldnt have mattered.

If Gore had pursued every legal avenue available to one who should be President but was cheated of the office how very different might the ‘04 election process have been? He failed abysmally in that duty as well.

Mr. Shaw, you are an intelligent and concerned citizen and I thank you for that. But you are, in fact, wedded to a Party that has deserted you and what is left is a myth. This nation needs, and desperately, a third force in our politics, one that shuns the power of corporate money with its long thick strings. What we have now is a Duopoly, a sham of a two pary system.

83856 ardee my argument to that would be why place republicans back in power where they can further decimate the constitution and give themselves more draconian authority? I’ll grant you the democrats have failed in their first 100 days but most of that was because of republicans blocking them. I’ll grant you they really pissed me off when they stated they would not impeach. But even if they tried to, the republicans have enough votes to stop them and they realize that. I think they should try to impeach anyway and let the American people see exactly who is preventing it. Look at the timetable for withdrawl. That came right from Baker, not Pelosi. Funny how it got twisted by the right to make it look like democrats were fatalists. The whole idea of the timetable came from the Iraq Study Group! Bush vetoed the bill and republicans in the house blocked the overturn. You can’t blame democrats for that. They nailed Libby, Bush commuted the sentence, they went after Rove and Bush blocked investigations, they went after Gonzales and even though everyone on the planet knows he’s an incompetent scumbag Bush won’t fire him, they are still going after the firing of prosecutors and Cheney says he’s a new branch of government.

Actually part of the 100 day plan involved bi-partisanship and the dems in going that route in my view was a waste of time. I think they know this now. The neocons will never play a bipartsan role. It’s their way or the highway. I would like to point out the dems are acting responsibly when they at least attempt oversight. That’s comething president Bush hasn’t had to deal with up till recently. Investigations are in full swing, supoenas are being issued and will continue to be issued. Do you honestly believe any of this will continue if we allow the republicans to regain control? I don’t! We’d be cutting off our nose to spite our face! That is all a third party presidential candidate would do. Steal liberal votes and recrown the neocons.

Frankly I like Ralph Nader. But anyone who believes he didn’t hurt Gore is not looking at this realistically. I don’t place the entire blame of Gore’s loss on him either. But he didn’t help and now look what we’ve got! Lets not forget that the 2000 election was stolen and Gore should have been the president. Even with the ripoff and the third party vote he still won more popular votes than Bush and Florida was stolen right out from under him. Had the third party at least thrown it’s vote to him instead of sitting on them he would have won hands down. Naders plan to make things so bad in government that people would jump at the opportunity in voting Green backfired. As a result all it would take to make Bush dictator is virtually any event, natural or otherwise. He can declare Marshall law over an earthquake. If there is another terrorist attack he can suspend elections. What good would a third party be to us then?

Frankly I’m not pinning my hopes on anyone, especially a third party that has no realistic chance in winning. I am no fan of the two party system but what you’re talking about amounts to political suicide and capitulation to the neocons. I’d rather take my chances with the democrats instead of playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded pistol. Let’s get rid of the neocons first. Then we can start working on the democrats.

#83789 by Michael Shaw on 7/03 at 9:49 pm
(166 comments total)

Ardee 83750 I agree with much of what you’re saying, even about a third party since right now I prefer the Greens to any of them. However, traditionally and beyond perhaps its only exception in the Bull Moose Party, the third party has only acted in a spoiler category. At this point there is nothing the republicans would like better in the coming presidential elections. That said, I would love to see a good third party candidate emerge out here in California and challenge Diane Feinstein.

Firstly, thank you for your considered response.

You may still choose to pin your hopes upon a party that lied to you, as Pelosi lied about killing the massive oil subsidies if given a majority and then left them practically untouched, but I choose to turn from them and seek a new path.

#83487 by cyrena on 7/03 at 8:58 am
(227 comments total)

#83408 by Verne Arnold on 7/03 at 4:02 am

• The last few questions I have are a very disturbing: Regardless of what you think of the Republicans…why don’t they see what’s going on?  Aren’t they Americans?  Don’t they have families and kids?  Aren’t we American really a decent people?  Is George Orwell the prophet of our future?

Cyrena, thanks!  You really took some time to answer me in your usual, thoughtful, calm way.  Thank you for the time you spent considering my “thoughts” put to questions.

I would add...simply, that time is a luxury many of us (especially the Iraqis) don’t have and maybe, we don’t have that luxury either...I don’t know.

Ardee 83750 I agree with much of what you’re saying, even about a third party since right now I prefer the Greens to any of them. However, traditionally and beyond perhaps its only exception in the Bull Moose Party, the third party has only acted in a spoiler category. At this point there is nothing the republicans would like better in the coming presidential elections. That said, I would love to see a good third party candidate emerge out here in California and challenge Diane Feinstein. But ironically, no one seems willing to oppose her. Not even Ariana Huffington who I think would have a good shot.

The biggest thing you point out.....there are no Roosevelt’s out there. The closest candidate that comes to one is Dennis Kucinich and he’s already been made to look cartoonish and wimpish by the press. Sadly for these shallow, dubious reasons, he doesn’t stand a chance, especially from the DNC.

As much as I grow tired over the two party circus, I believe it is imperative to elect a democrat as president. Not because I favor democrats or see them as saviors, but because they are in fact the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile we slowly but surely whittle down the republicrats and their republican counterparts, replacing them with independents until we are strong enough and they realize that if they don’t play ball, there might be a bigger and better team out there on the field. A strong third party could broker fairness in both parties and make them once again become the servants of we the people, rather than the servants of corporate CEO’s, but alas now is not the time. We aren’t strong enough yet.

A million people rattling the halls of the congress and senate and as you point out, is not a bad thing either. The key is putting the pressure on them and keeping it on them in every possible and constitutionally sound aspect.

Unfortunately we are not doing that. Some of us are but most of us aren’t. The one’s who aren’t will vote for a traditional party candidate because either they like this robber baron situation, have no idea about it or are too damn lazy to check it out for themselves and seek better alternatives.

The American people are enscathed by the two party ideology and this personified manifestation was no accident. The fear of a third column persists to this day from the 1950’s. Third column-third party is all they see. Meanwhile the real third column, the neocons are having a filed day just as they would if Ralph Nader chose to again run for president.

#83430 by Gold Star Father on 7/03 at 6:19 am
(Unregistered commenter)

#83416 by ardee stated:

What I do not read, sadly, are any concrete and viable methods for the restoration of the rule of law to our country.  I do dismiss, out of hand, all talk of revolution and violence as just sophomoric solution from those either too young to understand reality or unable to think long and hard about difficult solutions to complex problems.

Ardee, I am neither young nor without ability to understand “reality” nor to “think long and hard”.
How long do you propose to think? What is “sophomoric” is the many year whine about the abuses of the bush administration without any reaction other than apathy by the general population of America and the caving in to the president by Congress.

I do not advocate violent revolution, but action by the people as a whole to stop this administration. Stop the Iraq War, stop the abuse of basic liberty, stop the corruption in the White House (including cheney’s office) and the Dept of Justice.  Maybe its time for the people of this country to flood the streets and halls of Washington and not leave until we are satisfied that our Constitution is intact.

Ardee:

Firstly allow me to extend my deepest condolences for your loss of a child and to note that his giving of his life in service to his nation in no way is diminished by the horrific policies that led him there. I visit, every two or three years, a certain wall in our capital and pay my respects to some of my dearest friends, so , while I have not given a child in service to this nation I do understand loss and the ensuing emotion.

I am glad that you agree with me that violence and revolution are not the answers and my reference to sophomoric was to posters in another thread who childishly prattled gleefully about such actions. There is really only one way to retake our government and that is by the will of the people.

You mention taking to the streets in demonstration and I would remind you that, while I agree wholeheartedly with that method of voicing opinion, millions marched world wide in protest of the impending invasion of Iraq, and to no avail. The way, as I see it, and I am certainly no great or perceptive political analyst, to proceed is to try to reengage the public, to overcome the ennui and disinterest, the feeling of powerlessness that has overcome the American people.All power resides with the people ultimately and all solutions must come through them (us).

“ The reasonable man adapts to his surroundings, the unreasonable man attempts to change his surroundings to suit himself; and all progress depends upon the unreasonable man.” George Bernard Shaw

We live in a time in which the voice of the people has taken a back seat to the voice of the CEO, when the government moves on wheels greased with the money given by corporations and thus responds only to the power of that money. We as a antion have lived in such times before, remember income taxes and inheritance taxes were brought into being to end the amassing of all the money by the “robber barons”. Previously, government income came chiefly from tariffs. Even as late as the Civil War about 60% of government revenue still came from such a source.

This current cycle of the new robber barons must be thwarted in the same way that Teddy Roosevelt, and later, his cousin Franklin thwarted those of their eras. our problem is of course that we have no Roosevelt this time around. It is up to us to either take back the Democratic Party from the DLC and the inept leadership in both Houses, yes Reid and Pelosi must go as well, or to move in another direction and support a third party pledged to refrain from corporate funding. This is th eway I have chosen.

82689 Well Will, I take my hat off to you and the great state of Tennessee. California feels the same way!

83651 I’m sorry Goldstar Father. I must have read a pasted copy of your statement in his post!

As for a violent, militant revolution, that is something I hope we never see. I do however see the possibilities in that happening if things continue as they are. It is a frightening prospect. That said, I am in full(100%) agreement with you, I stand corrected and if anyone wishes to go to Washington enmass, they can count me in.

I actually went there and lobbied congress over the USA Patriot Act a few years back, but we were only in the hundreds, perhaps a thousand. If a million went there to address our grievences that would make a far greater impact, literally rattle the halls. No doubt a Kent state type massacre might ensue. But that did Nixon little good and it wouldn’t help George W. Bush much either.

83658 Bravo!

Gold Star Father, as a vet who lost more than a few friends in Vietnam, I share your pain--and your anger.  What is important is that your grief and anger be channeled into accomplishing fundamental change.

There is only one member of Congress currently running for president who has steadfastly opposed this war from the outset and opposed every war funding bill.  The idea that you somehow “support our troops” by providing the funds that permit the Bush regime to leave them in harm’s way is an Orwellian canard.  I urge you to go to

http://www.kucinich.us

The July 3, 2007 article by Paul Craig Roberts, a former assistant secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration and an associate editor of the Wall Street Journal should be read by all.  While the article can be read in its entirety at

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/jul/03/worl d-can-now-kiss-city-on-the-hill-goodbye/

especially for its economic analysis. I will simply quote from its shorter political analysis.

“America is being destroyed.  Many Americans are unaware, others are indifferent, and some intend it.

“The destruction is across the board; the political and constitutional system, the economy, social institutions, including the family itself, citizenship and the character and morality of the American people.

“Those who rely on the Internet for information are aware that the Bush regime has successfully assaulted the separation of powers and civil liberty.  Both President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney claim that they are not bound by laws that impinge on their freedom of action or interfere with their ideas of the power of their offices.  Bush has issued presidential directives to make himself a dictator by declaring a national emergency.  Cheney asserts that his handling of secret documents is not subject to oversight or investigation or bound by a presidential order governing the protection of classified information.”

We have, of course, received recent reports, ominously reminiscent of those that surfaced in the Summer of 2001, warning of an imminent terrorist attack.  Whether 9/11 was an inside job or the work of al Qaeda, there can be little question that the cabal now occupying the White House would seize on a new attack as an excuse to declare marshall law.

In “The Great Unraveling” (2004) Paul Krugman presciently warned that America’s hard-right was a “revolutionary power,” as defined by Henry Kissinger in his 1957 doctoral thesis, “A World Restored.”

“Lulled by a period of stability which had seemed permanent, they find it nearly impossible to take at face value the assertions of the revolutionary power that it means to smash the existing framework.  The defenders of the status quo...begin by treating the revolutionary power as if its protestations were merely tactical....Those who warn against the danger in time are considered alarmists; those who counsel adaptation to circumstance are considered balanced and sane....But it is in the essence of a revolutionary power that it possesses the courage of its convictions, that it is willing, indeed eager, to push its principles to their ultimate conclusion.”

Congress must awake to the danger, and right soon.  If they do not immediately fulfill their duty as guardians of the Constitution and the rule of law by bringing and prosecuting articles of impeachment, they may find themselves in the same position as the deputies of the German Reichstag at the outset of a national nightmare that began with the 1933 Enabling Act which ceded all legislative power to Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler.

Skruff, I’d also like to add this little detail about commuting as opposed to pardoning goes:

AMY GOODMAN: And how does President Bush wiping out his jail time protect Bush and Cheney?

MARCY WHEELER: Well, in some ways, the commutation is actually worse than a pardon, because with a commutation, Scooter Libby still retains his Fifth Amendment privileges. So if John Conyers tomorrow called up Scooter Libby and said, “We’ve got to talk. I’d like to know exactly what happened when Dick Cheney ordered you to leak something classified to Judy Miller. I want to know whether President Bush actually did declassify it or whether Vice President Cheney was just making that up”—he does that, and Scooter Libby just says, “I plead the Fifth,” and we still don’t get—“we” as American citizens don’t get to understand what our president and what our vice president did to retaliate against somebody who was just exercising his First Amendment speech rights.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/03/1433207

RE: #83258 by bob on 7/02 at 4:33 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

bob, you are out of your mind, and likely as deluded as this administration.

“Plame was never undercover.  The CIA isn’t even allowed to have undercover opperatives within the united states.”

If you do some research you will find Plame WAS an undercover agent.  Do you think agents just walk around wearing a sign “UNDERCOVER”?

As for your comment about the CIA not being ‘allowed’ operatives in the US, you’ve got to be kidding! Nixon used both FBI & CIA undercover people against anti-Viet protest groups in his time in office, and the Bush regime traces back to that illegal mis-use of power (even with some of the exact same players).

With the neo-Con belief they are above the law what makes you think they wouldn’t disobey the laws about CIA operatives?

RE: #83281 by jbart on 7/02 at 5:15 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

While I agree with you some people need to be gleaned from the gene pool I take exception to your slam of WASPs. I am one, but if you have seen the philosophy in my previous posts you will also see your negative ‘profiling’ of WASPs inappropriate, offensive, and inaccurate.

Gold Star Father...I truly grieve with you at your great loss and although I agree with 99% of what you are saying, I would like to add I do not beleive in violent revolution but moreso like Gandhi’s approach in peaceful civil disobedience. His nonviolent ideology defeated the greatest oppressor in world history up till now. Men like him, Martin Luther King and others had true courage and conviction. It cost them their lives but their ideology is still with us and that shall never die as long as “We the People” never lose sight of it.

83412 Skruff the entire justice system is a sham. If anything, those who serve in office and commit blatant crimes should get twice the sentence as an average citizen would. Politicians have our entire nation in their hands, petty criminals do not. Although I agree to an extent that violent criminals belong in jail moreso than nonviolent criminals, Libby’s actions have enabled the overthrow of constitutional law, hiding acts of treason in the process and enabling an illegal war that has killed hundreds of thousands(or perhaps a million) and permanantly injured even more. That is a hell of a cry more serious than writing bad checks or smoking marijuana.

That said, I believe non violent criminals should be locked up separately from violent criminals.

The truth is there are thousands of people in jail who do not belong there and one of the guys who truly does just walked.

83430 Gold Star Father you are absolutely correct. If a million of us flooded DC and demanded an end to this war, it would be over by now. Meanwhile most folks sit at home, bitch and complain to their spouses, drink beer and watch televion. Same goes for gas prices. If enough of us decided to have a sit down strike and refuse to drive, the whole nation would be left at a temporary standstill, forcing those idiots to do something. When we just sit back on our arses we are doing exactly what the powers that be want us to do. It will take action by us in great numbers to get back our country. It will take risk and courage and it will take selflessness, all aimed at the common goal in restoring democracy.

We supposedly have a two party system. The truth is we do not. Every politician from both sides of the aisle sit in the same corporately controlled church. I see it as no more than a good cop-bad cop system where the bad cop robs steals and beats our liberty and wellbeing to near death then the good cop steps in, throws us a few scraps from the table making us believe we still have a system. But we still lose and what we gain back comes nowhere near to what we lose. Then the process continues again. As this goes on it is quite clear where we’re all headed. First to corporate feudalism, then to out and out slavery. Right now we’re at the corporate feudal level. How long will it take before we wake up? The next great slave rebellion since Sparticus?

I, for one, am glad to hear of the commutation.  This outcome fits my preconceived notion of George W. Bush’s and perhaps more appropriately, Dick Cheney’s political gamesmanship with our country and the world.  So much the better for a hastened political melt-down of this Unitary-Executive-War-President-administration.

83524 James Claire.....You must be joking!!!

Lord Acton words come to haunt us again, “Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely”

Is there any doubt the silent bullet has been fired already or is it just us tiny people that see this?

Se Hablar Espanol.

Part 2 - (con’t from Part 1 - jamesclare)
The great irony in this situation is that a majority of the Republicans, after some ‘Democrat’ bashing, will leap at the chance to remove this millstone from their party’s neck and will complete the super majority. They will see their redemption and rehabilitation in this action and actually become the more eager actor. The courage, however, must come from the Democrats in the knowledge that in removing this Executive, they will surely be helping the Republicans. They will be helping the nation more and that should be the only calculus. This will require a determination and strength that the country has not witnessed in Congress for many years. If the strength is found to rein in the Democratic presidential aspirants, who benefit so much from this weakened Presidency and will surely fight this action, the earth will shake underneath the White House. The march up to the White House by Congressional leaders of both parties will be a day for the history books. The weakened Executive will give in to all demands and step down because power will give them no choice, and that they understand. As part of the process, Cheney must be made to step down first and a new VP selected to address the fears of a Cheney or Pelosi presidency. The new VP/President would have to be a Republican and it must be someone like Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who is familiar with Iraq, diplomacy and who, ostensibly, has the experience to guide the country. It would be nice to have a promise from him or her not to run, but that is probably not enforceable. Democrats will just have to take their chances, but again, their charge is not re-election but to construct an effective government now. The new cabinet should be bi-partisan so that a unity government is assured and justified public suspicion further ameliorated. The possibilities for this executive branch are breathtaking if it employs the most experienced and pragmatic negotiators, peace makers and war fighters from all parties. Most importantly, America can renew herself before a startled, yet immensely relieved world. No longer will our allies and much of this nation withhold their valuable resources in a desire to see this strange and destructive administration fail. The delight of watching the hated American executive branch twist into oblivion will no longer affect decision-making across the globe. The only logical benefit to our allies and even many of our foes will be to aid rather than abet the situation in Iraq and the entire Middle East, whatever course that takes. Congress will move ahead with a level of respect and support that it will hardly know what to do with and with a common cause in Iraq, rather than half of the government benefiting from failure. As for as the next president; campaigning can resume after the nation’s business is taken care of. How the new government can change the Iraq dynamic is a further item of discussion.

Part 1 - I agree with Cyrena’s post with the following additions. The Democratic Congress is drawing the wrath and contempt of many who voted them into office because they are not taking the courageous path and changing this government. People sense that they can do more, but cannot formulate the exact action required. I can. What is required is a revolutionary, but thoroughly constitutional action, the removal of this executive and its replacement by a functional government. I believe that we do not have another twenty gut-churning months to ignore this issue. It seems that neither party can step outside of the standard mode of operation and conceive of a different way of doing things because of the fear of taking responsibility or losing power. They cannot and will not see that the problem of this war and our dysfunctional executive branch cannot be solved by tinkering around the edges with endless nattering about benchmarks, deadlines, war funding and who will be our next president. The issue is not $0, $50 or $100 billion of funding. It is the fact that we have lost our standing in the world and a great measure of our strength and, because of this, our ability to deal with the issues we face. Our military is strained beyond reason, yet we still have an obligation to try and fix the mess we have made. There is a solution and it is the only one that will make a difference. It has surely been considered and cast aside many times by my timid party. The fact that the unraveling of Iraq and the disintegration of the Bush administration is actually advantageous to Democrats makes a rational unified way forward nearly impossible. This dynamic must be changed. Democratic campaigns are well served by this crippled administration; the nation is not. The Congress must assume the mantle of responsibility given to them by the Founders and stand up to this dysfunctional Executive, not for themselves but for the country, her soldiers and a responsibility that rightly or wrongly has been assumed by all of us. This president and his cabinet should and must be removed. It can be done swiftly as soon as the Democrats make up their minds to do so. It is the only way to salvage something out of the war they, however unwittingly, helped launch. First, to gain any kind of credibility after their weak efforts on addressing this issue, the Democrats must create their own version of ‘shock and awe’. They must demand the Democratic presidential candidates suspend any participation in the presidential race immediately and start focusing on what is best for this country instead of who will be the next president. However improbable this sounds, it is what should be done even though it threatens dreams of future power. The problem is now, not 20 months from now and all the congress should act now. The suspension of the race will suck the wind out of the irrelevant political yammering and focus the talking heads, press and hopefully the nation on the very serious moves that must take place. It will empower the Democrats to move forward as nothing else could. As the congressional Democrats refocus their energy and efforts to that of salvaging our wrecked government and foreign policy, they will be able to enlist more Republicans in their rescue work than any conventional wisdom would allow. It is absolutely possible to attain the resignation of the President and his enablers if it is done ruthlessly and swiftly. The absolute inevitably of impeachment, trial and conviction will be enough. There are several iron-clad impeachable offenses that almost everyone can now recite. Only the absolute certainty that impeachment will be used will ensure that it will not be needed.

For now, the only real solution is to actually work within the system, to the degree that we can, (and keep reading and blogging) because the only reason that bush continues to get away with this stuff is (in part), because even Congress has been in the dark, and even once they began to figure things out, the obstacles have been overwhelming, from cheney locking up all the documents, to the literal PURGE of 47 million professional and semi-professional bureaucrats or other workers within the corporate structure.

Still, as broken as the system is, I don’t see it poisoned completely. The most dangerous part of it has all been at the top, and just getting rid of them, would be a major breakthrough. So, while I agree with Ardee that any sort of “armed revolution” is not the answer, (and I don’t think that many people have that as a serious thought) we also cannot afford to ignore what Barack Obama referred to as a “quiet rage” among ordinary citizens. At the time, he was referring to many of the black communities in our nation, but the fact of the matter is that it can apply pretty much everywhere now. So, while my juvenile and arrogantly nerdish critics can patronize me condescendingly with things like, “well, there have been other large groups of people who have been oppressed, and never resorted to violence”, I would certainly beg to squash THAT naïve assumption, because history has provided too many examples that totally disprove that. And when those events have occurred in this country, they have rarely been “organized” acts of violence, but rather “reactions” to conditions that have long been smoldering, and the slightest thing can set it off. That’s what I see being a larger concern, than any organized “armed” revolution.

But, I also don’t think it can wait another 500 days. So for right this moment, I honestly believe that things are in fact sort of working themselves out, with a lot of help from those few “decent” people still left in the system, that can help bring it about. Politicians are in fact beginning to do a little more, if only because of the self-destructive vindictiveness that cheney always indulges in. These latest antics of him deciding that he’s not part of the Executive branch, has been another shot in his own foot, and I want to believe, (from what I’m seeing) that their days are numbered. More and more have embraced the impeachment resolution, including McDermott most recently, who called on cheney to either resign or be impeached. And, while that might sound like only so much rhetoric, it means that soon enough, the rest of these political scaredy-cats, will in fact be forced to do something themselves.
Recent polls, (for whatever they’re worth, and they do have some use when used with other tools) have continued to show what is nearly universal disapproval of the Mob, on a whole host of issues.

So for now, the best thing might be to just keep on preaching to the choir, and sharing information, as more and more people begin to figure these things out for themselves. There are far more resources to share now, then there were for the first 5 years of this nightmare.

#83408 by Verne Arnold on 7/03 at 4:02 am

• The last few questions I have are a very disturbing: Regardless of what you think of the Republicans…why don’t they see what’s going on?  Aren’t they Americans?  Don’t they have families and kids?  Aren’t we American really a decent people?  Is George Orwell the prophet of our future?

Lots of good questions here Verne, (and yeah, in my opinion, we should ALL be worried) but I have to say that I believe the postings to be important, even if they sometimes don’t seem to do much more than express an outrage that has unfortunately been suppressed for so long, by so many of us just trying to figure all of this out. Because, it hasn’t been an easy thing for most of us TO figure out.

Which brings me to your questions that are in fact disturbing, beginning with, “why don’t they see this going on? (meaning anyone who still appears to support these policies-like Republicans) and that’s the first major problem, that is only just beginning to correct itself. So many people really DO NOT see what’s going on, for a number of reasons, and lots of them really are “decent people” with kids, (consider all of the ones that have already lost kids and families) but yet for many of these people, the truth of things still hasn’t come. My personal analysis blames a large portion of it on this propaganda that is far more prevalent than many people realize, and I know that because I receive so much of it from people that I have always considered to be decent and rational people.

But the Orwellian atmosphere has continued to dominate us now, (collectively) for at least 6 years, with all of the fear-mongering, and the creation of all of these “existential threats” and all the rest of the stuff, that it really has not only prevented many people from figuring out that something is “wrong”, but allowed for all of these fantasy type explanations for what they must obviously “sense” is very wrong, but are unable to put the dots together, to understand why. I’ve come to the conclusion that a lot of people are in what is now a permanent sort of post-traumatic shock, and have been for so long, that to really accept the truth of it all, is simply far too painful.
And, I’m not trying to sound like a “Dr. Phil” or some semblance of any, but from a social science, or even an historical context, as a society, we’ve experienced such an unprecedented assault as multiple acts of treason, and there are still too many who cannot wrap their minds around that. So, I don’t think that for ALL, it’s a matter of not caring, but just the ignorance based on the propaganda that is so ruthlessly imposed, giving many of these perfectly decent people, some sort of escape or opportunity for denial. This seems really prevalent among military families, who are brainwashed into a blind patriotic belief, based on this whole made up theme of a “war on terror”.
And then, there are those who are in fact still totally oblivious to it all. They’re the ones who are in fact still complicit in it, even if they’re only just realizing it. So, better to just watch Oprah, and not be “depressed” with all of that bad news, or play a video game. These too, are “decent” people, who certainly don’t like the consequences of these things, but if it’s not THEIR family member dying or coming back as a broken person, and if they’ve never had a reason to wonder what people are like on the other side of the world, (or even across town) they pretty much don’t know or care.

So, I said that to say that while we might all be preaching to the choir, that choir has in fact been relatively small until recently, and the fact that it IS finally growing larger, despite the on-going attempts to keep everybody stupid, is hope in itself.

To be continued.

I can’t wait to listen to the apologists on Bush letting Libby out of jail. I bet they all wanted Clinton impeached, thrown to the wolves, but not Libby. Oh, no… so now the message to my kid is if you are a conservative (supposedly who Bush is pandering to by deciding to let Libby off), you are for two different justices. If you are not a member of the GOP and you are guilty you must be punished, if you are a Republican you can cheat, lie, and get pardoned. Remember when Clinton pardoned his buddies what the conservatives said? Right, I figured so much… And the Media is always so upset that this country is split in two… oh, poor members of the intelligentsia. By God, that is a good thing. My solution to the problem is send all children of Republicans (who LOVE war) to Iraq and keep them busy, make sure all Republicans get no government healthcare, thus letting the rest of us get insured for free, and do what India did with Muslims when they created Pakistan. Break this country into two sovereign nations. One that is good to its citizens and communities and the other a Darwinian state where all the right wing nuts can go and live in their own hell.

I take no pleasure in having predicted this obvious act of commutation by a pResident who neither respects the law or the office he did not earn.

I read the anger, the outrage, the shame that our nation has fallen under the aegis of such disreputable and lawless people.

What I do not read, sadly, are any concrete and viable methods for the restoration of the rule of law to our country.  I do dismiss, out of hand, all talk of revolution and violence as just sophomoric solution from those either too young to understand reality or unable to think long and hard about difficult solutions to complex problems.

Some remain confident that, in about 500 days or so, all our problems will go away as Bush returns to the anonimity he so richly deserves.  I reject this as wishful and pollyannish thinking. Until and unless we come to understand that it is not people but a system gone rancid that is the root cause of our problems we will remain enmired and enslaved under a corporatocracy that actively seeks to destroy all the freedoms that our founders fought so hard to install.

There are a lot of posters here I have never seen before…this should be a good thing, but is it?  Most of us are saying the same thing…which is; we don’t like the present situation in America (an admitted understatement).  After much of my own ranting I have some questions.  I’m really worried.  Should I be? 

So…what is the reason we aren’t getting what we want?  We elected a Democrat majority…yes?  What is the reason Bush continues to forge ahead with his plans as though there is nothing in the way to block him?  Outrage aside, do we really understand this dilemma?  Do we see clearly?  Do we need another galvanizing event to push us over the top so that we finally act?  How far can words take us?  Is it worthwhile to preach to the choir?  We can find sympathetic “friends” at these sites but, are we really doing anything?  Or are we striving for ego gratification and a false sense of actually accomplishing something?  The last few questions I have are a very disturbing: Regardless of what you think of the Republicans…why don’t they see what’s going on?  Aren’t they Americans?  Don’t they have families and kids?  Aren’t we American really a decent people?  Is George Orwell the prophet of our future?

When good is made to look bad and bad is choreographed to look good, you’re near the tipping point.

Improve America’s self-esteem:
Drop-ship Libby into the sands of Iraq w/his Israeli passport and a note from the NYTimes on how easy it is to lie in broad daylight.

Well, so much for “Rule of Law.” Scooter Libby deserves prison.  He is no scapegoat, and his “years of excellent public service” consist of plotting undemocratic, world-domineering policies.

Is there no one is Washington with any historical perspective? 

Sure, Libby didn’t act alone with the Plame leak and thwarting its investigation, but he also didn’t go against his better nature and just follow orders.

I. Scooter Libby has always been at the forefront of aggressive neoconservative policy.

In 1992, Libby, along with former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, and the current U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, wrote a “Defense Planning Guidance” report, commissioned by then Defense Secretary Dick Cheney.

This DPG called for the U.S. to claim its authority as the world superpower, to intimidate rivals for power, to bypass the United Nations as needed, to build more weapons to ensure global military dominance, and to strike pre-emptively against those who threaten U.S. interests anywhere in the world.

It was shockingly unethical, bullying and began the end of Americans-as-good-guys. It was supposedly shelved after its embarrassingly heartless approach to the world was leaked.

But in 1997 it resurfaced, only slightly edited, as the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century, signed by Libby, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, Elliot Abrams, Zalmay Khalilzad and more. Though PNAC officially closed in 2006, its personnel and policies still thrive at the American Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation, the Weekly Standard and, yes, the White House.

“The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath .... “

(Unregistered commenter)#83353 by kevin99999 on 7/02 at 10:15 pm

..."I wonder if this GOP moron in the white house has any idea what he is doing to this country… “

Kevin, I’ve been asking myself this question everyday for the past 7 years. And, for a while, it was hard to know. Too easy to assume that he was just too stupid to have any clue to what was actually going on around him. We know that he has no intellect to speak of, so he doesn’t have any reason to know or understand the consequences of any of this unprecedented stuff that he’s done with the Constitution.

So, other people have worked out all of the details of that. Still, he’s not entirely stupid, because this is obviously the agenda that he supports. So in that respect, it doesn’t really come into question whether he knows how much destruction he’s caused, simply because he doesn’t CARE. It only matters they he further his agenda, and cheney takes care of the rest.

That’s the hubris.

NEXT IN-LINE TO BE PARDONED BY BUSH..."JONATHAN POLLARD” ...PERHAPS 12/2008 OR 01/2009.

I wonder what this “Bush” feels about Israel spying on the U.S., such as, the zionist Jewish anti-American monster, Jonathan Pollard.

Jonathan Pollard is a convicted Israeli spy and a former United States Naval civilian intelligence analyst. Pollard pleaded guilty and was convicted on one count of spying for Israel, receiving a life sentence in 1986 with a recommendation against parole. Israel publicly denied that Pollard was an Israeli spy until 1998, when he was granted Israeli citizenship.

According to Eric Margolis in the Toronto Sun, Pollard provided Israel with the names of Amerivan agents in the Soviet Union. Margolis also alleges that the names were later traded to the Soviet Union by Israel and a number of key CIA agents were executed as a result. Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker claims that “a number of officials strongly suspect that the Israelis repackaged much of Pollard’s material and provided it to the Soviet Union in exchange for continued Soviet permission for Jews to emigrate to Israel."and that” a significant percentage of Pollard’s documents, including some that described the techniques the American Navy used to track Soviet submarines around the world, was of practical importance only to the Soviet Union”

Pollard’s superiors at the Navy Field Operational Office in Washington, D.C. grew suspicious of Pollard’s conduct. Stacks of classified documents unrelated to his work were repeatedly found in his office. The FBI was soon called in to investigate, and they arrested Pollard in November 1985. Any hopes of keeping the scandal under wraps were dashed when Pollard attempted to avoid arrest by requesting asylum at the Israeli embassy, as originally ordered by his Israeli handlers from Lekem (his controller was Rafi Eitan, former head of Lekem.) The Israeli embassy nevertheless refused to grant Pollard and his wife asylum, and Pollard was subsequently apprehended by the FBI. At the time, Israel publicly denied any connection to Pollard.

There were press reports at the time of the Camp David 2000 Summit that Clinton had offered to pardon and release Pollard as an inducement to then-Prime minister Ehud Barak to enter into an agreement with the Palestinians, but nothing ever came of it. There were also rumors that Pollard was among the many whom Clinton considered for Presidential pardon on his last day in office, January 20,2001.

The lates Israeli request for pollard’s release made in new York on September 14, 2005 was again declined by President Bush. A request on pollard’s behalf that he be designated a Prisoner of Zion was rejected by the High Court of Justice of Israel on january 16, 2006. Another appeal for intervention on Pollard’s behalf was rejected by the High Court on June 8, 2006.

Pollard & Israel’s spying has caused the deaths of many Americans! This zionist monster loyalty was not to America, but to a foreign country...Israel. He needs to pay for his damn spying and the deaths of our fellow Americans; He belongs in prison til he rots. This is only one of many spying affairs by Israel on the U.S.

The people on this forum can watch “Spy Jonathan Pollard” caught on tape. Surveillance video from 1985 shows American stealing secrets for Israel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15222134/

83336 by 911truthdotorg on 7/02 at 8:27 pm

911truthdog, Thanks for this on the latest distraction. I hadn’t seen it, but it’s all standard fare at this point, because this has been the same song and dance over and over.

They don’t even re-writethe scripts on these things, or change one single iota of the theme or MO.

But, I don’t think it can work this time, and certainly not as it did in the lead-up to Iraq, when there were few of us wh