The only clear consensus I know of is to get out now.

I think the past election had something to do with it.  Wait till the next one in 2008 and I’ll show you clear consensus.

Another “clear consensus” developing is to impeach Cheney.

#80868 by PatrickHenry on 6/24 at 5:11 am

<<I am aware of polls in Iraq in which 80 percent of the people want the U.S. out, however, the heavily U.S. subsidized governments want us.>>

There is a clear concensus within our government, military, and intelligence communities (even among those that opposed the Iraq war to begin with) that withdrawl from Iraq would be disasterous - for Iraq, for the ME, and for the west.

I am aware of polls in Iraq in which 80 percent of the people want the U.S. out, however, the heavily U.S. subsidized governments want us.

I’m with the people not the government.

#80720 by PatrickHenry on 6/23 at 11:51 am

<<We have been in Germany, Japan, Okinawa, Turkey, Spain etc, etc. for far too long much against the wishes of many of the people living there.>>

But according to the wishes of the MAJORITY of people living there and, more importantly, their government.

<<I know first hand of U.S. Military Jets going down in neighborhoods in these countries killing many and of crimes committed by our soldiers against the populace there.  I have seen significant demonstrations against our presence in these countries.>>

We’re in these places by invitation.  They’re free to revoke that invitation anytime they please.

My bad, I wasn’t aware of the (2) Yemenis, (1)  Egyptian and (1) Palistinian.  The important fact is there were no Afgani’s.

Read the article to which you are posting. The airstrike was on a compound containing a religious school and mosque. 

We have been in Germany, Japan, Okinawa, Turkey, Spain etc, etc. for far too long much against the wishes of many of the people living there.  Don’t forget we the taxpayers are paying for this empire and I for one want us to get out of these places, just like the Russians did Eastern Europe.

I know first hand of U.S. Military Jets going down in neighborhoods in these countries killing many and of crimes committed by our soldiers against the populace there.  I have seen significant demonstrations against our presence in these countries.

It is truly time to cutail the military industrial complex of this country.

I do believe the Israeli’s were implict in 9/11 with elements of our own government and alot of people agree with me.  I have seen very little proof from our own goverment supporting the official story.

The truth will eventually reveal itself, meanwhile we have to get these neocons, deadweight democrats and AIPAC supported polititians out of office next election and start some serious investigations.

#80181 by PatrickHenry on 6/21 at 3:35 pm

“Its been six years since America invaded Afganistan, we are still there with no end in sight.”

It’s been 61 years since we invaded Germany and toppled its govt. and we’re still there, no end in sight.  Does that make us occupiers?

You seem to forget that it was Afghanistan’s AQ that hit us first.  Can you show me any evidence of mosques and schools being hit by the US in Afghanistan?  I know of none.

“Remember the (19) supposed Al Qaeda operatives on 9/11 were all Saudis.  The mossad has long shadowed these rich arab cells.  They are all semites and could easily pass off for each other.”

I’m sorry… so you’re saying the Jews committed 9/11 on the US?  Now I’m really confused.  Please tell me that’s not what you mean so we can continue this discussion on the plane of reality.  I have a sneaking feeling that won’t happen though.

Its been six years since America invaded Afganistan, we are still there with no end in sight.

Maybe these “militants” are angry from random U.S. airstrikes in their country on their mosques and schools. 

Remember the (19) supposed Al Qaeda operatives on 9/11 were all Saudis.  The mossad has long shadowed these rich arab cells.  They are all semites and could easily pass off for each other.

There was alot of coincidental happenstance reported prior to and after the 9/11 event regarding Israeli agents in the wrong places at the wrong time.

I don’t believe the U.S. occupying Iraq and to a lesser extent Afganistan makes me any safer, protecting me from the insurgents in the mud huts.

#79914 by PatrickHenry on 6/21 at 2:56 am

“I never said they were a harmless scapegoat, you did.”

Well it’s hard for me to get another point beside that from your post, which said that we’re more of a threat to AQ than they are to us and that they’ve long been infiltrated by the CIA… then justifying their actions by saying we do the same thing.  You make them sound pretty harmless.

FYI: we’re not occupying Afghanistan.  NATO has about 20K troops there, as does the US - but the govt. was fully elected and has a standing army, police, etc… The country is certainly in a transition after having switched goverments within the last few years, but I know of no intent to “occupy” Afghanistan.  I’d expect no different a presence there than we’ve had in Europe since WWII, for example.

What do you mean by “occupy”?

I never said they were a harmless scapegoat, you did.

I’m all for military strikes, not long term occupation.

The long term U.S. occupation only benefits Al Qaeda.

#79504 by PatrickHenry on 6/20 at 3:37 am

Patrich - that’s certainly your opinion and you’re entitled to it.

I can’t respond to your assertion that AQ was infiltrated by the US and is now just a harmless skapegoat because I’ve seen no proof of this.  So if you want to believe that, I won’t try and talk you out of it.

Marshall,

We are more a threat to them than they are to us.

Is our indiscriminate killing somehow OK and theirs isn’t.

Al Qaeda, was penetrated by the intel agencies years ago. 

It became some sort of Manchurian candidate organization and was used by those who stand to profit from this mess.

#79369 by Skruff on 6/19 at 5:14 pm

“I would argue that that brand can fit Russia…”

I think that history has shown that a policy of containment works with Russia, and that a policy of engagement suits contemporary conditions far better than confrontation - especially given it (and China’s) nuclear capabilities.  I’m curious how you believe we should be dealing differently with Russia and China.

“The muslims are a side-show distraction, funded and supplied by the guy behind the curtainÂ… ChinaÂ’s the threat!  always has been….. but oh so very patient!”

I also believe China to be a threat.  And it’s fair enough that you believe it a greater threat at the moment than Islamists; we simply disagree on that.  However, I am curious who you are referring to as the “guy behind the curtain”?

#79179 by Skruff on 6/19 at 5:20 am

I agree, Skruff, that countries are allies as long as it serves both.  Another example of a truth that often applies to individuals as well as states.  Our alliance with the Mujahadeen against the Soviets achevied its goals but, as sometimes happens, it also later turned against us.  And I have no regrets about that policy.  But I would regret it if we allowed ourselves to become mired in recrimination and failed to act to counter the force that Islamic radicalism has become.  I would argue that our Afghanistan policy is far less of a crap shoot because we have ample evidence of what happens when you leave a hard line regime in place to host and fund a global terrorist organization.  For the US to withdraw and stop fighting that force would make as little sense as, say, Saudi Arabia deciding to do the same.

#79304 by PatrickHenry on 6/19 at 1:33 pm

“Do you really think they are responsible for 9/11.”

Yes.  They’ve admitted it and the evidence is clear.  Are you arguing that AQ is not a threat.

Marshall,

Yes I do think its time to get out, Afganistan was running well without us for thousands of years.

We’ve been there over 5 years and we haven’t found Osama or Omar, because we haven’t been looking for them.

Do you really think they are responsible for 9/11.

I don’t.

#79026 by Tom Doff on 6/18 at 1:54 pm

Tom - you might want to read the article; it’s Afghanistan, not Iraq.

#79052 by PatrickHenry on 6/18 at 3:55 pm

Patrick - what do you think will happen if we (actually, now NATO) pulls out of Afghansitan?  You think it’ll just run itself and AQ will give up and go home?  What about the parents and children that died in 9/11 because we failed to remove AQ from Afghanistan before it became lethal?  You think we’re going to let this whole cycle start over again by pulling out now?

How my heart goes out to the families of those children.

You can bet family members who were neutral before will now have our soldiers in their sights.

Its time to pull out of that place and come home.

Whenever the United States commits a “tragic mistake” - and this tragically occurs far too often—it refers to itself as “coalition forces”. In addition to this patented tactic to deflect responsibility they also used the words “Al Qaeda fighters”, “human shields” and make passing use of the always popular yet nondescriptly vague term “several killed militants”.

And if this surveillance of ours that we had on that building all day couldn’t find a significant group of children, how in the hell are we to believe they found any “Al Qaeda fighters”? That’s some real outrageous bull$hit there Maj. Belcher. I don’t think you guys could find your asses with both hands (as the saying goes).

I’ll tell you something, if anyone is using “human shields” as cover it’s us. We use “several militants” as OUR “human shields” and cover for committing these kinds of atrocities. And the idiots that we all seem to be in this country, we still can’t seem to fathom why they hate us so god-damned much.

The invasion forces have plenty of bombs and ammos so they want to use them all even with pregnant women and children.