Response to Zena (post 59012)

Thank you for reading my post. I am not the crass materialist you think I am and I am very anti-Bush which you will find out if you visit my website. I think George Bush et al are simply taking advantage of the Christian Evangelical movement and using them for political purposes.

But, returning to the question at hand if I had to make a choice bewteen believing in Christianity or not believing it, I would choose not to believe it.  This does not mean that God does not exist.
We simply don’t know how this whole business of life came about; it lies within the realm of the unknown.  That is, in fact why religions like Christianity were invented my man, as a means of explaining the world around him. Man creates religion and not the other way around, in my opinion. Take a look at the Old Testament and ask yourself: did a God create these thoughts or did the mind and character of a Jew create them? I like to think that man creates religion for his own purposes.

Here is a book that I tend to believe more than any Christian one, by way of explaining things.  The book is by Ludwig Feuerbach and is called ” The Essence of Christianity ”  See link below:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/feuerbach/works/essence/index.htm

Now, if I was sure there was a god, of any kind whatsoever, I would be the first one up in the morning and doing the kind of praying that would make me acceptable to any kind of a god at all. That is how tenacious I would become.  I would want to be saved and have everlasting life.  Who wouldn’t?

But, the point of my post was to alert people to the realization that Christianity is an unproven product. It is just something that is marketed in society and there are no guarantees whatsoever for the consumer who takes up the faith. He must rely on someone elses ” word ” that things will be as they say.

My argument remains: if there is a God, and a Christian god in particular, he will accept you, no matter what. You do not have to attend church or pay tithes or anything like that to gain the approval of God. “God” will save you because the god you are dealing with is the one that you have created in your own mind. Let your conscience be your guide, form your own opinions and rely on common sense.

Religious authorities, like Popes and preachers and the like claim to speak for God and may have even spoken to God.  Ask for your proof of these things before you sign any contracts with any gods. Ask for a receipt, get the extended warranty if you must, and demand to be compensated if the goods are not delivered as promised.

Carl, plainly you are a materialist. That’s exactly the opposite of a ‘Christian’. How do have the courage to talk about something you don’t understand? What exactly was your point in your post? What would YOU do about this situation? That you look up to George Bush and want to be like him clearly reveals you a person who has no ‘heart’. You couch your metaphors in terms of ‘buying’. Buyers and sellers seem to be your only world. I feel sorry for you. Jesus overturned the moneychanger’s table. And I believe it can be done again. Yes, in THIS DAY AND AGE. Have a great day.  Zena

There is a great deal of risk in watching televangelists operate on television and elsewhere. The risk is that someone may actually come to believe what these religious authorities claim to be true. They are first claiming that there is a God who loves us and one that will take care of us for an eternity. Stop right there and think about that. If you believe what these people say and take on some faith in the process, then that means you have taken on risk. You are setting yourself up for failure because you do not know for sure if your religious mentor can produce the goods or not. You are making a contract with an unknown entity who you are trusting to come up with the goods, i.e. everlasting life. God’s agent, the preacher, is a salesperson selling you something that you cannot see, touch, smell, or taste.  You can only imagine that this God exists because someone is telling you that.  That is a risky business, in my opinion.  When I buy a car or t.v. or computer I expect it to work or I want my money back. When you die and find out there is no God and that you have been scammed, then what? Why would you take on that kind of risk? The preacher, in the meantime, has all of your money and your emotional commitment. You feel good of course because you expect the goods to be delivered upon death. I say, save your money and put it to better use during your lifetime. Just live a good and honest life and you will find that no Godly relationship is required.  You will feel just as good, and most likely better because you will have more money in your pocket to spend. You will have your sense of well being.  And, here is the kicker or bonus for you. When you die and find out that there really is a God he or she is going to accept you anyway because you were most likely not suckered in by the televangelists. God appreciates common sense more than he does risky behavior. If you believe those televangelists why don’t you believe me? Not only am I most likely right, but I am saving you money in the process.

The problem isn’t that most people believe the bible,  and it isn’t just that these holy books are based exclusively upon ancient stories that got passed down from generation to generation before eventually being recorded. it’s that all the biblical stories are from antiquity, and while antiquity has much to offer us today, there are things going on right now of such monumental import (doomsday being just around the corner, for example),  so as to surely qualify as being the very essence, the stuff of world-shaking biblical events.  Yet, to date,  none of this has been put in the bible.  Isn’t it past-due already for the holy books to be updated?  Its leading story line, for example, has to be does our evil president succeed in desroying us all,  or, instead,  do we rise up and change the world?  Can’t wait to find out which way that one goes,  plus all the lessons yet to be learned.

Either Jesus is a mass murderer or the 20% of US christians are using Jesus as front to justify mass murder. If latter is true, then they are the real antichrist. Take your pick.

“The story goes like this: One day Jesus will come and take his favorite Christians to heaven, leaving the rest to fend off the Antichrist. It’s called the rapture, and 20 percent of Christians in America believe it is imminent.”

What do Republicans and religious fundamentalists have in common?

Closed minds.

I’m sorry you feel that way Dale. But the fact is staring you straight in the face that the numbers of people who DO BELIEVE outnumber you to , oh, ‘bout how many to one? Especially in the voting booth where it counts. Do you discount them so lightly? You don’t seem to be looking for a solution, and as they say; if you are not part of the solution, you are definitely part of the problem. Have a great day, Zena

I liked the Blondie version myself…Fab Five Freddie told me everybody’s high-DJ’s spinnin’ are savin’ my mind…

Rapture, crapture, kool-aid drinking, bible-thumping morons who are too dense to try thinking for themselves, it’s not just sad, it’s a national disgrace, and the organized religionites on television have made a mint with their apocalyptic fearmongering, just look at how much money whatshisname made with that movie about the incas or whatever…The End Is Nigh…for televangelists’ free ride on our nations’ airwaves…

The idea of there being such a thing as a Rapture is a rather modern construction, it having never appeared in any meaningful way in the history of theology until the appearance of Darbyism in England toward the end of the eighteenth, beginning of the nineteenth century. It is an aspect of a larger, formulaic theological speculation, Dispensational Pre-Milleniallism, itself a wholly fantastical notion at once the consequence of a absurdly literalist biblicism and an insecure late 19th century Protestantism. The entire construct is considered gravely erroneous both by Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

What entertains most here is an interest in and an insistence upon Christian orthodoxy by a Episcopal churchman, a denomination today hardly known for its adherence to conventional formulas. Might it be that there are motives not merely theological in these complaints?

John Lowell

I was about to engage in a lengthy discourse over all the doomsday forecasts from the Christian fundamentalists through the millennia that never came true - Duhhhh!; but it’s really kind of silly when the bottom line is that there is no such thing as God, or any god, or any angels, or any ghosts, or any other sort of paranormal phenomena.  The concept of religion - based solely on fear and ignorance - has neither a scintilla of empirical evidence nor an appeal to common sense to support it.  I know - faith!  However, if Christians are entitled to appeal to faith to assert that what they say is true, then they are equally bound to respect my faith that the sky will turn to orange Jello tomorrow.

I know where does Armageddon come from. From the White House with bunch of demons dancing around with rotten corpses.

“Christian” means Christ-like and is a descriptive term for believers who follow Jesus’ example. Christianists are those like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and George W. Bush who seem to be following the example of the anti-Jesus.

Jesus was poor. Jesus told his followers to help the poor, love their enemies, resist violence, practice forgiveness, ignore the things of this world and separate themselves from politics (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and render unto God that which is God’s).

Christianists are rich. The take money from the poor and fight welfare. Christianists support war and killing. Christianists hate their enemies and condone violence. Christianists run for political office.

Most Christians do not read the Bible and, therefore, they believe what the rich, loud-mouthed Christianists tell them. They do not realize that Christianists are the false prophets Jesus’ talks about in the New Testament.

Claiming to have ‘faith’ is nothing more than taking the easy way out. By claiming to have ‘faith’ one can avoid thought, introspection, and responsibility for one’s actions.                                                          It is also the path of least resistance and gives convenient access to the ‘good ol boy’ network found in congregations everywhere.

Want to sell insurance, autos, real estate, or leisure suits to Laura? Go to church on Sunday and smooze!

I’m in COMPLETE agreement with Thomsen in #58522. Thank you for putting it so well.

What I cannot understand is the reason why so many otherwise intelligent people actually BELIEVE as TRUTH the propaganda generated by organized religions.

It’s hard not to suspect there’s something wrong with ME because I don’t “believe” as do the throngs. I’m nothing special, I don’t think. I’m of average everything… intelligence, ability, talent, interests and lack thereof (laziness). Just your average Joe. I find it completely OBVIOUS that religions are based in FABLE and SUPERSTITION, that they ALL are nonsensical fabrications with one aim… CONTROL. Why doesn’t everyone else see this?

When a spider ensnares an insect the first thing it does is inject a venom to immobilize and then sets about to devour. That’s what “Sunday School” does to unsuspecting children… herds them into the church basement, closes the doors and injects preposterous venom into their innocent minds which, apparently, innoculates them for life with what I call ANTIFACTS. Such things as real, actual FACTS are no longer able to penetrate to their reason and logic centers, just as after an antibiotic or antiviral shot a bacteria or virus is no longer able to infect an innoculated host.

Commanding children to attend “Sunday School” to be brainwashed into believing competely unsubstantiated assumptions and glib opinions as TRUTH, is tantamount to CHILD ABUSE, in my opinion. It should be a CRIMINAL OFFENSE to pervert any child’s mind in this manner.

There are 30 million, well-organized fundmentalist fanatics,hating life and eager for
Armageddon. Superstition is sweeping the country.

I don’t believe it. It’s so absurd.

working with the cult investigation force in the 80’s, i can assure you that geo bush’s and the kkk’s, aryan brotherhood and american nazi party’s views on this issue are not only identical, but fascistically so. they intend on killing you and i, brother.

There was a purpose for this madness. When Bush decided to violate our Constitution and give the churches money, it wasn’t out of the ‘goodness’ of his heart. As we all know, he has no heart. No, it was for material purposes. Preachers already have the tendency to preach gloom and doom; it wasn’t much of a stretch to step it up for filthy lurce. One of the main signs they believed they saw, was the corruption and evilness of many of the leaders and businesses. It gave those very crooks the ‘OK’ to go ahead and do their dirty business; after all, if people believe the world is coming to an end, do u think they would take the time and trouble to make people accountable? Also as these leaders and business entities seduced them into crime themselves they either had to admit they sinned and feel guilt and shame, or they could insist the world was coming to an end, and they had no choice. It wasn’t their fault they were doing wrong. The only thing missing was the 666. Many now know the truth.  Some are protecting these criminals because to do otherwise, is to admit their own guilt. And some people are still profiting from doing their bidding. That’s my opinion, anyway. Have a great day, Zena

comedy in america.  when you think there is nothing to laugh at try the rapture and the people that really, no really, believe in it.  not that single payer medical care or free education for everyone, preschool through graduate school, would change their lives, no some crazy story has their attention. has distracted them from the real world.

Either you want to (13) believe, or you want to (14) know.

Matthew 7: 13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

It requires little effort to (13) believe, much endeavor to (14) know.

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“But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?”
~Mark Twain

“Personally, I had to give up on both religion and psychiatry because after much praying for my sanity, all I got was a diagnosis of ‘normal’ and every one of its untreatable maladies.”
~GW=MCHammered

Liberal brain washing—if it wasn’t so sad I would laugh. A Religion that says god is concerned about everyone, but seems only to speak to divines who steal, lie and promote murder and telling people they should respect other people just because of our shared humanity is “Liberal Brain Washing”. I am 62 and have held my tongue too long when people are saying this crap.

You want to force belief on other people or at lest criminalize behavior that is personal business. You want to control your idiot children by using civil law. Saying you can’t do that and yet protecting your right to believe is being called “religious persecution” amongst many believers. Sorry, you are wrong.

If god really believed in the teachings you say he commands, then he would have instructed every one every where personally in these matters and not left it to a third party of smug, opportunistic divines. Even politicians are not as malignant as Fundmentalist Divines be they Christian or Islam. One decent humanist is worth a thousand self righteous religious bigots.

So pumping children full of Superstition Lite is a good idea? 

We should teach children that a god, any “God”, is what weak people need in order to feel good about themselves.  God is mommy/daddy for adults who haven’t outgrown their need for authority.  “faith” is a feel-good word for “opinion”.  Religious people pretend they know what happens when we die, but really, they don’t know.  No one does.  We don’t NEED to know what happens when we die to live beautiful happy lives.  Pretending, any pretending, will never bring genuine happiness.

Let’s teach children that instead.