You win Hondo.

It’s clear that Republican and CPAC talking points are valid means of analyzing economic trends, and that the mathematical models taught in graduate economics are all a liberal phony.

Just like the world really was created in 4004 BC some time in October at 9am (though I don’t know if it was Eastern Standard time).

Just like all the sciences are phonies because the Bible is the only real science.

Just like the world is flat.

When you let politics and faith trump science, you get Galileo being declared a heritic.  You get Stalin dictating how genetics MUST work and shooting biologists who can’t make his genetics work.  You get crystals and copper bracelets and aroma-therapists claiming to be the same as real doctors.  You get school children being taught Genesis in “science” class. You get the version one religion being posted on court-house grounds using public money.

But, Hondo, you win.  I truly cannot argue with your logic. 

All I can do is work hard to ensure that people like you are voted out of office, and that all the harm done by your “heroes” can be reversed so that American can return to prosperity, peace and freedom, three things we have little of, and are losing more and more every day that your “heroes” rule.

But you win.

Mad as Hell--You’re not dealing with reality pal! Here’s what you said:
1. “Government revenues fell during the Reagan administration.” WRONG! Federal government revenue grew by a total of $670.6 billion---that’s a gain of about 7% per year. Reganomics works, my friend!

2. “It was not the Supreme Court that caused the Depression,” you said. Then, you repeated what you said before about Coolidge’s laisez-faire policies to business and banking. Then you provided ZERO commentary about why the wealth of information that I provided about the Supreme Court was false. You just kinda sorta repeated the same scratched record you played before. The truth is that there is no single cause for the depression. You say that there were people who had no business in the stock market buying way over their heads, and that Coolidge should have done something about it. I say that it’s none of the President’s business how much stock people buy, but of course, I am a conservative. You, as a liberal, believe that a more liberal president would have taken care of the people. That’s a disagreement that you and I will never resolve. Regardless, that wasn’t the main cause of the depression. The Supreme Court caused the depression, and I’ll show you how.
Between 1886 and 1937, there were over 200 federal court decisions that blocked attempts by states to regulate corporations. The Court ruled in 1886 that they had the power to supervise all of the states’ corporate tax and regulatory policies. In 1890 the Court took control of the power to set railroad freight rates. The Court said that neither the states nor the federal government could put limits on the number of hours employees could be forced to work. It forbade minimum wage laws and child labor laws. The effect of all that pro-business/anti-worker “bench legislation” was that, between 1923 and 1929, output-per-labor-hour increased by a whopping 32%. Wages for the worker increased by 8% over that same period, and the average work week remained at over 50 hours per week. No wonder there was such a gap between the haves and the have-nots! It had nothing to do with Coolidge.

I believe that blows your main arguments out of the water. If any of the above is incorrect, please provide historical, verifiable documentation to prove that it is incorrect. Oh, and by the way, you never did respond to the facts I provided about Carter, although you did run on a bit about the Bush family, who were never even part of the discussion.

I did have a thought, though, about Carter. You said at one point that Carter’s “draconian” economic policies were eventually the cause of our economy getting better. Is that kind of like saying, in a smooth Georgia accent, “I had to burn the economy to save the economy.” Now I understand!

Hondo,
When you understand macro-economics you won’t ask these questions.

It was NOT the Supreme Court that caused the crash any more than it was Martians or sunspots.  It was laisez-faire policies to business and banking that Coolidge encourarged: For example: Margin buying of stocks allowed people who had NO business in the market to try to leverage their holdings by a factor of 5 of more. When the market started to go down, the margins were called--banks don’t bet their money.  That’s ONE example.

I GAVE you examples--you didn’t like that they showed your hero to be an inept dolt who didn’t understand the economic impact of his actions.  You don’t like it, you ignore it, as you ALWAYS do.  Reagan based his tax cuts on the idea that according to the Laffer Curve, Government revenues would RISE--he said so--I remember it. Why don’t you?  But revenues did NOT rise as predicted--they fell and the deficit went out of control.  Because Reagan bet we were ABOVE the turning point on the Curve, when, in fact we were below it.

You don’t LIKE this example? Tough. You can ignore it but then you will NEVER convince anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.

Sorry if my BORING treatise on Economics put you to sleep. Too bad. That, yet again, proves my point that you have NO idea how any of this works or hangs together--you just repeat the old right-wing talking points.

I realize it’s tough to understand how fiscal and monetary policy can cool down an economy with runaway inflation, and that there is necessarily a recessionary rebound, followed by recovery.  If a President times it right, (like Clinton did) he gets re-elected.  If he times it wrong, like both Carter and Bush 41 did, he leaves after 4 years.  But unlike Bush, Reagan and YOU, Carter fully understood that our economy was sick and needed surgery, and that the recovery would be painful.

If you don’t understand how it takes 6-10 years for the FULL effects to blossom, then you are forever doomed, like the catastrophe in the White House (or Reagan) to ALWAYS be smacked in the face by the law of “Unintended consequences.”

I used to despise Reagan as the Worst President Ever.  But I have revised that view.  I now know how much worse and how much darker it can be, but we don’t yet know the limit of that.  At least Reagan had real charm and humor: His favorite dinner guest was Tip O’Neil. 
His three best lines:
1) Tell me your Republicans (to the doctors when he was shot).
2) All things considered, I’d rather be in Philadelphia (same day).
3) Honey, I forgot to duck!

Another favorite: When Bush 41 tried to cut Reagan’s mike off during the run-up to 1980, Reagan thundered: “Mr. Bush, I PAID for that microphone.” It set RR apart from the crowd.  But the sad part is we Americans didn’t realize even then how the Bushs will pull any dirty trick, stop at nothing, tell any lie, and hurt anybody solely for power.

I think RR made him VP so he could keep an eye on him!

Maybe I will move RR up a few notches--certainly above Bush 41.

Things started to get fake when Reagan entered the White House. Yes he smiled a good deal.

Mad as Hell, you need to take some sort of course in logic. You were spinning around in circles so fast I got car sick!

I stated that Coolidge delayed the start of the Depression with his outstanding economic policies and that the Depression happened largely because of an activist Supreme Court. I provided historical documentation to back up my assertion. You responded by saying that my arguments about Carter were illogical. Huh?

Then you changed the subject and began criticizing Reagan, but you didn’t respond to any of the factual data that I provided (or that Frank provided, for that matter). You just don’t like Reagan.

Then you launched into an incredibly exciting dissertation about mathematical curves and economic policy that was most stimulating! After I regained consciousness, I went back over your comments to see if any of it was a response to anything I said. Alas, it wasn’t. Isn’t that the way it always is with liberals! You couldn’t really speak to the facts I layed out, so you did the old Tasmanian Devil routine in an attempt to baffle everyone.

Let’s not make this so hard. Could you please respond to just one fact that I gave about Coolidge, one fact about Carter, and one fact about Reagan? Please supply verifiable documentation for anything you say. Thank you!

Hondo:
You argue that the Depression happened DESPITE Coolidge’s policies .  But you argue that the harsh times that Carter INHERITED were his fault.  Don’t you see the dichotomy?

You argue that it was the Democrats’ fault that Reagan’s policies failed--but Reagan had control of the Senate AND managed to gain effective control of the Democratic House to get bills passed.  You blame Democrats for the deficit--but that deficit proved the assumptions of Reagan’s policies (based the Laffer Curve) were wrong.

Now you want me to prove to you that it was Carter’s draconian policies that were healing the nation, and not Reagan’s.  You need to take a course in graduate Macro to follow the mathematical models that demonstrate that NO politician has a CLUE how the economy works, and how the Fed Govt affects it. 

You probably like to argue that “Supply Side Economics” proves that “Keynesian Economics” is wrong. Right? It’s a layman’s argument because BOTH are Keynesian.  Keynes modeled the tools that government had to affect the economy.  Both Supply Side economists (like Friedman) and Demand Side economists (like Samuelson) used this model.  The Chicago School emphasized monetary policy, the Samuelson followers emphasized fiscal policy.  Taxation and expenditures are BOTH tools of fiscal policy.  The money supply is controlled through interest rates and the amount of money released into circulation.

In that first class in macro, mathematical models PROVE that ANY action by the Federal Government has both short term and long term effects...The short term ones can be pleasant or brutal and happen in about 6 monts.  The long term affects take 6-10 years.  You want to learn to solve the multi-variate, multi-equation linear algebra models, have fun!

In short, ANY one trained in economics will tell you that Volker’s tight money policy to control inflation (which began under LBJ)caused interest rates to soar, and slowed down the economy-- VERY painfully.  But when it healed Reagan was President by then and got the credit.

When Bush squandered the surplus and created the BIGGEST deficit ever ( Cheney said “Reagan proved deficits don’t matter") I said to my wife “We better re-finance soon, and better take ONLY a fixed-rate loan”. I looked like a fool then when ARMs were low.  Now I look pretty smart as people with ARMs and no-principle balloon loans are in DST.  I also said then “Gee, when will the housing bubble burst?” Again, I was crazy--Houses were a GREAT investment, Right?  In 2006 the housing market went into decline as interest rates were forced up...and by what? Those VERY deficits that Cheney said didn’t matter.

Learn REAL economics, not politician-talking-point-"economics" to understand why Carter’s policies saved the economy.

BTW, it’s not that the Laffer Curve is wrong--it’s that Reagan never understood it.  Laffer drew it as a smooth curve with a turning point in the middle.  But Laffer had NO empirical evidence of whether that turning point was at 15% or 87%. But the IMMEDIATE and consistent increase in the deficit indicated that the turning point was above the tax rates that were reduced.  It’s simple geometry and easy to see but I can’t post images here.

Because of ALL this--plus the INCREDIBLY ROTTEN Iran/Contra Arms for Hostages-- I still rank Ronald Reagan near the very bottom of MY list of all Presidents--but definitely higher than our current President Catastrophe.

Mad As Hell, Reagans “tax increase” of 1982 was merely a partial rollback of the massive tax cuts of 1981. His “increase” undid about a third of the cuts of 1981. In other words, he made a huge cut, then reduced the cut somewhat, with the resulting rates still well below the pre-1981 rates.  That’s not what I call “raising taxes”.

What was the result of his reduced taxes? Aside from jobs creation and falling inflation, receipts from individual income taxes rose to $446 billion in fiscal 1989, President Reagan’s last budget, from $286 billion in fiscal 1981, the year Reagan began to slash personal tax rates, a 56% percent increase.

You’re right, Mad as Hell, you didn’t use potty talk. When I made that comment, your comment hadn’t posted yet. So, you have that to be proud of. You didn’t sink into the gutter with the rest of the mental midgets. You were, however, factually incorrect in your statements. Please allow me to educate you.

You said that Coolidge caused the Depression. That’s not true. It IS true that there was an abnormal income gap between the haves and the have-nots in America, but Coolidge’s policies were not the reason why. Look at http://ttokarnak.home.att.net/Depression.html
You will see historical documentation that it was an unconstitutionally activist Supreme Court that caused the “unsoundness” in America’s economy. I would argue that Coolidge’s economic policies delayed the Depression from happening sooner.
Next, you say that my information about Reagan was misinterpreted or wrong, but you don’t back up that ridiculous statement with anything approaching an historical fact. Please, enlighten me. What did I say about Reagan that wasn’t true? Please document your answer with a verifiable fact.
You said that Jimmy Carter “healed” our sick economy with draconian economic policies. Please, enlighten me. Just how “healed” was our economy on Carter’s last miserable day in office? Please document your answer with verifiable facts. Reagan’s economic policies did, in fact, heal our economy, but you don’t believe that. OK, enlighten me. What was the cause of the miraculous economic turnaround after Reagan took office? Please document...oh, you know the drill!
Reagan and tax increases? Yes, there were tax increases while Reagan was President, Unfortunately, the Democrat-controlled House--where appropriation bills originate, by the way--absolutely refused to reduce spending. The federal deficit spiralled out of control even as government revenue increased due to the tax cuts. That was because the House was spending like a drunken sailor on leave. There was also a political reality that Reagan got slapped with during his administration--Congress wouldn’t cooperate with him on any of his programs unless he compromised on signing tax increases. Hard, unpleasant choices had to be made. That’s a sad fact of life in the Beltway, but it illustrates the importance of NEVER voting for a liberal for any office higher than dog catcher!

“Wow! You wacky liberals sure are brilliant! In my comment, I offered hard cold facts to show what a great president Reagan was. In return, all I get from the liberal “geniuses” is profanity and potty talk. Your mothers must be very proud to have raised such “insightful” liberals!
Is there anyone out there with the intellect to debate me? “

I used no profanity or potty talk.  I picked one totally incorrect set of facts and conclusions and re-butted it totally.

Your “cold hard facts” about Reagan are in fact either mis-interpreted or wrong.  In fact ALL you did was recycle the same old tired screed about Reagan that conservatives have been spouting for nearly 20 years.  Old, Tired and WRONG!

Case in point: Jimmy Carter and Paul Volker instituted rather draconian economic policies to heal our sick economy.  They were painful bitter medicine and were a major contributing factor to Carter’s defeat.

But, as Hoover is wrongly blamed with The Great Crash that was Coolidge’s fault, Reagan is wrongly credited with the recovery that Jimmy Carter brought about by the necessary bitter medicine.  NOT by Reagan’s policy. 

Furthermore, Reagan’s policies SO undermined Carter’s fixes that two years into it, Reagan was very discouraged that unemployment was rising again, and had to institute a TAX INCREASE! 

That’s right, your “hero” actually RAISED taxes. Go back and read the newspapers from the time, not just the Rush Limbaugh/Ann Coulter fairy tales, or your absurdly propagandistic sources.

Stop ignoring the facts you find uncomfortable--that’s called “reductionism” and discredits any scientist or social scientist who engages in it.

But you are not a scientist--you are an advocate of extreme right-wing propaganda--your silly web site is devoted to propagandizing.  Propaganda DELIBERATELY engages in reductionism, and its arguments are designed to convince those who are NOT using their intellect, not those who are.

Clearly I don’t have the intellect to debate you....draw what conclusions from this statement you like.

Wow! You wacky liberals sure are brilliant! In my comment, I offered hard cold facts to show what a great president Reagan was. In return, all I get from the liberal “geniuses” is profanity and potty talk. Your mothers must be very proud to have raised such “insightful” liberals!
Is there anyone out there with the intellect to debate me?

ROFLMAO!

Hondo, old buddy,
You should write comedy--the 1/2 Hour Show needs somebody as funny as you.  Really--they could NEVER gen up the laughs as well.

The number of factual and inferential errors in your post defies comprehension. 

Here’s one: Six months after Calvin Coolidge turned over the Presidency to ally Herbert Hoover the economy had it’s BIGGEST collapse in history, The Great Depression--you cannot blame Hoover for it--it ALL falls on Coolidge’s policies--not even George W. Bush could sink an economy in six months (lord knows he tried).

Fact 1) Coolidge is President from 1923 to March 1929.
Fact 2) Six months later the Stock Market Crash
of 1929 sinks the nation into The Great Depression.
Fact 3) Herbert Hoover, being a fellow Republican, continues Coolidge’s legacy from March 1929 through the October Crash.

Logical Inference: Coolidge’s policies were a major contributory factor to the economic failure.

Every one of your totally skewed and myopic points can be disproven factually the same way.

However, I DO agree that Lincoln and Washington tie for the two greatest Presidents.

Even by YOUR standards I would have rated John Tyler, Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan as DEFINITELY worse than Carter--after all, Pierce and Old Buck let the greatest treason ever happen and split the nation in two.  No matter how crazed and myopic the nutty right wing can be, unless they believe that the secession was a GOOD thing they cannot rationally rank Buchanan or Pierce above Carter.  That’s just your detestation for TRUE freedom and justice, and your preference for a Christian “Sharia” speaking.

Also, by your standards (and even mine) James Knox Polk should be near the top of the list.  He presided over the second greatest expansion of the nation and kept EVERY campaign promise he made, making him unique among all Presidents and most politicians.

You need to learn history from the facts and records left by the people who made it, not from the talking points of the RNC and the televangelists.

It is truly astonishing how many mistated, and flat-out incorrect facts you crammed into that screed.

Thanks for the chuckle!

If you aren’t old enough to remember America under Jimmy Carter, then your opinion of Reagan is as utterly irrelevant as it is uninformed.

My childhood memories about Carter were waiting in lines for gas that stretched down the block and only being allowed to buy half a tank when we got there. I remember many friends parents were out of work. I remember American hostages in Iran and wondering why my country was so impotent that we couldn’t get them released or rescued. People did not seem to have a lot of optimism about America’s future.

I remember how profoundly things changed in 8 years under Reagan. Unemployment dropped, inflation plummetted, household incomes climbed, people were back to work and starting to feel good about America again, and feeling more confident about America’s military as we faced down the Soviet threat. 

Statement from former President Bill Clinton:

``Hillary and I will always remember President Ronald Reagan for the way he personified the indomitable optimism of the American people, and for keeping America at the forefront of the fight for freedom for people everywhere. It is fitting that a piece of the Berlin Wall adorns the Ronald Reagan Building in Washington.’’

Statements from Senator John Kerry:

“Yesterday, we lost one of our great optimists,” Mr. Kerry told graduating seniors from Bedford High School. “President Reagan’s belief in America was infectious. And because of the way he led, he taught us that there was a difference between strong beliefs and bitter partisanship.”

“Free men and women everywhere will forever remember and honor President Reagan’s role in ending the Cold War,” Mr. Kerry said. “He really did believe that communism could be ended in his lifetime, and he helped to make it happen. Perhaps President Reagan’s greatest monument isn’t any building or any structure that bears his name, but it is the absence of the Berlin Wall.”

“Even when he was breaking Democrats’ hearts, he did so with a smile and in the spirit of honest and open debate,” Mr. Kerry said in a statement. “Despite the disagreements, he lived by that noble ideal that at 5 p.m. we weren’t Democrats or Republicans, we were Americans and friends.”

Putting the words “great” and “reagan” in the same sentence just dosen’t compute.

Those who think of Reagan as a great President do not know that he took it in the ass in Hollywood to promote his third rate acting career.

Other than that he was a really great foul up and fuck up as a person and as a President of the United States of America.

He would be the worst President this country has ever had if it weren’t for wienerboy Bush.

That is the Truth.

Lincoln, FDR and Washington.

All the rest is commentary.

Ronald Racist I mean Reagan was a great president if ypu were rich or a member of the clan. But still not as bad as Bush who will go down as the most destructive president this nation has ever seen.Nixon,Bush the first Carter, Johnson all seemed great compared to Reagan and Bush.

I’m amused by all of the “Hate Reagan” blathering on this thread. Please allow me to educate all of you on the accomplishments of Ronald Wilson Reagan, the greatest president of the 20th Century.

Before Reagan took office, seven million Americans were unemployed. During the final year of the Carter debacle, the unemployment rate was 7% and the inflation rate was a whopping 13.5%.  President Reagan’s economic policies stimulated the economy, creating 17 million new jobs. One-fourth of the new jobs were created in 68 consecutive months. Black unemployment was cut in half. The inflation rate decreased to less than 4.4%. Family income rose 12%. Jimmy Carter, the Clown Prince of Socialism, told America that it wasn’t possible to improve the economy, and that we should all just get used to poverty, cold houses, and wearing sweaters. Pres. Reagan properly recognized all of that as manure, and so he saved America.

As president, Reagan rebuilt the U.S. military into the finest fighting machine in the world. This is the same American military that was almost completely destroyed by 4 years of an incompetent peanut farmer working in cahoots with a socialist-controlled Congress. What was the result of the Reagan reclamation project? We defeated the Soviet Union and won the Cold War without firing a shot.

Of course liberals hate Reagan! The Great Communicator proudly stood for everything that liberals abhor. Reagan believed in the free market. Liberals believe in socialism. Reagan believed in peace achieved through strength. Liberals believe in appeasement. Reagan believed in the foundational principles of the American republic, as created by our Founders. Principles like unalienable rights bestowed upon us by God, governmental power originating from the people, a system of government based on Judeo-Christian values, and the power of the individual. Liberals believe in a secular progressive government telling the people what rights they have, and catering to the whims and wants of selected “victim groups.” History shows us that Reagan conservatism works, and that modern liberalism does not. Maybe that’s why so many more people (35%) consider themselves conservative, rather than liberal (23%).

For what it’s worth, here’s my list of our 5 greatest Presidents:
1 and 2: Washington and Lincoln--for reasons that should be obvious
3. Reagan--for the reasons I outlined above
4. Calvin Coolidge--the very picture of the Christian conservative. He restored honor and dignity to the Presidency, after the corruption of the Harding administration. He cut taxes 4 different times, had a budget surplus during his entire administration, and cut the national debt by one-third. He was also one of the most popular presidents we have ever had. No wonder. He was a conservative!
5. Harry Truman--He had the guts to make the hard decision (and the correct decision) to bomb Nagasaki and Hiroshima. That one decision saved tens of thousands of American lives, and makes Truman a hero in my book.

The worst president of all time? It’s Jimmy Carter, hands down. He almost single-handedly destroyed America, and taught us a valuable lesson about how dangerous it is to elect liberals to public office.

Clinton and G.W. Bush? Both are in the same category of “fair to middlin’”. If Clinton had taken his official responsibilities a little bit more seriously, and spent a little less time “bird doggin’ chicks”, he might rank higher. Bush deserves kudos for standing up to the liberal jihad that has been launched against him and our military, and for continuing to faithfully protect our national security. He also deserves praise for being the best economic president we have had since Reagan. His shocking expansion of entitlement spending and government domestic programs under the ridiculous title of “compassionate conservatism”, however, deserves our condemnation.

Here endeth the lesson.

Ronald Reagan?  He should be listed in the bottom 5, not the top 5.  Kennedy?  What did he do?  Almost nothing.  But the President who fundamentally changed this country the most profoundly was FDR.  People who are in the middle class today should know that there was no middle class before Roosevelt.  Ronald Reagan, in fact, began the effort to destroy the middle class - an effort which continues today, and successfully so.  A report just released says the rate of “severe” poverty has risen by 26% since 2000.  Where do you think those people came from?  The fast-eroding middle class.

Absurd.

I DEFINITELY rate Ronald Reagan highly as President...I rank him as 38th out of 43.

And I do NOT rate JFK in the top 5.

I would pick as the top 5--the best ever:

1/2.Lincoln, Washington (yeah this is controversial, but I think GW conquered just as big and dangerous challenges as AL)

3.FDR
4.Polk (Yeah, Polk--kept every campaign promise and more)
5.TR

then, 5 great Presidents:

6. Jefferson
7. Jackson
8. Clinton
9. Eisenhower
10. Carter

As we get into the middle, it gets tougher, but these guys were all pretty darn good, with flaws:

11. Truman
12. JFK
13. Monroe
14. Ford
15. McKinley

Tougher still--major flaws are creeping in:

16. Cleveland (1st term)
17. LBJ (w/o Viet Nam he’d be top 10)
18. Van Buren
19. Madison
20. Garfield

Now it’s REALLY tough--competence is questionable, but damage is negligible:

21. Taylor
22. Arthur
23. W.H.Harrison--no time to mess up.
24. Fillmore
25. Taft

Getting weaker...These all showed some real quality, but also MAJOR mistakes:

26. Wilson
27. Coolidge
28. Hayes
29. Hoover
30. J.Q. Adams

Beginning to stink...The opponent would definitely have been better--except Cleveland and Harrison were trading off:(opponent in parens)

31. Cleveland (2nd term)(Harrison)
32. G. H.W. Bush (Dukakis)
33. J. Adams (Jefferson)
34. B. Harrison (Cleveland)
35. Pierce (Winfield Scott)

Now they reek something fierce as rotten presidents. DEFINITELY the opponents would have been better:

36. Harding (James Cox)
37. Nixon (Humphrey, McGovern)
38. Reagan (Carter, Mondale)
39. A. Johnson (N/A)
40. Grant (???,Horace Greeley)
41. Tyler(N/A)

But the stench of the worst, the most destructive to our nation, the most incompetent goes to:

42. Tie: Buchanan, G.W.Bush*

*Since Bush’s term isn’t over yet he can STILL make things far worse than he has.

Reagan as a great President? Give me a break. That tells me what the power of money and propaganda is in this Country.

Reagan’s accomplishments? It wasn’t balencing the Federal Budget. His Tax Cuts created a major shift of National Wealth to the rich. His economic policies created the worst economic turn down since World War II and the highest unemployment since the 1930’s.Homelessness was largely contained to skid row before Reagan, when it exploded because of his policies.

Foreign Policy? Wasted a lot of money on Anti missle defence but didn’t know the Soviet Union would collapse when it did.Remember Lebanon? At least his advisors has enough sense to cut and run after that blew up literally. Iran-Contra affair? That was grounds for impeachment and conviction!

Let’s be honest, Reagan was already senile by his second term. By then after every press conference his damage control teams would have to correct his factual errors and explain what he really “meant”. He was confusing old movies with reality. 60 minutes had video of him when he was still President where you could see the lights were on, but there was nobody home.

This is one of those cases where it is REALLY important to read the whole article, rather than the Truthdig synopsis.  I remember, back in the days when I was the high school geek, watching the CONTINENTAL CLASSROOM course on government before going to “real” school every morning; and what I remember the most was a program devoted to interviewing George Gallup.  What impressed me about the man was that he was more concerned with WHY the results turned out the way they did than with WHAT the “bottom line” actually was.  It is good to see that, in the original source, George’s driving passion for critical analysis is alive and well in the current Gallup organization.

For my money, these are the most important paragraphs from the original source:
--
In general, however, Americans’ conception of who is the nation’s greatest president does not appear to be highly influenced by the pronouncements of academic experts; otherwise, one might expect more widespread public agreement that Lincoln was among the greatest. Also, academic rankings are top-heavy with other historical names like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Andrew Jackson; none of these are at the top of Americans’ rankings.

One of the more recent academic polls on presidents was conducted by The Wall Street Journal in 2005. In that poll, Washington was rated No. 1, followed by Lincoln and then Franklin D. Roosevelt. Washington and Roosevelt also made the top three in Schlesinger’s original poll.

Modern presidencies that people have experienced are more likely to be top-of-mind or impressive to the public than those learned about in history books. A majority of the responses to Gallup’s survey are for presidents who have served in office since the 1930s, including Reagan, Kennedy, Clinton, Franklin Roosevelt, Truman, Jimmy Carter, Dwight Eisenhower, and George W. Bush. Also, rather than focusing on the historians’ favorites, Americans name a wide array of presidents, many of whom are mentioned by no more than 5% of Americans.
--
Note that this analysis makes no judgment about whether academics, with their broader sense of history, are more “fit” to rank-order presidents than is the general public, with its narrower sense of the immediate past.  Each strategy has its own merits and its own applicability.  We saw this in the vigorous exchange here on Truthdig regarding the WORST president ranking.

Actually, the REAL lesson that George was trying to teach on CONTINENTAL CLASSROOM was that drawing ANY conclusion from a poll is an extremely dicey proposition.  Unfortunately, this lesson seems to have been lost on the mechanics who now engineer the electoral process.  I suspect that most (if not all) Truthdig readers appreciate how we are all the worse for the ignorance of George’s original wisdom; but, to paraphrase the “wisdom” of Donald Rumsfeld, we are stuck with the process we have!

“Apparently recovering from the Great Depression, landing on the moon and presiding over unparalleled prosperity don’t impress Americans as much as, uh...Iran/Contra?”

Apparently defeating the Soviet union economically and winning the Cold War without nuclear holocaust, while fixing the US economy is somewhat more impressived than having an affair with Marilyn Monroe or getting a blowjob from an intern.

By the way, I wasn’t aware that Kennedy landed on the moon. That’s pretty impressive.

SIMPLY PUT-DR. ABRAHAM LINCOLN IS NOT ONLY THE GREATEST PRESIDENT WHO EVER LIVED BUT THE GREATEST AMERICAN WHO EVER LIVED. HOW DARE YOU PUT THE NAME OF CLINTON ON THIS LIST!!!!!!! BOTH HE AND HIS WIFE SHOULD BE IN PRISON AFTER WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!!!!!

Let us face the fact that this “Greatest” list, is actually more to do with ignorance, and name recognition by a large number of people who will give any name that has been recently in the news.

If we are talking about people who have actually done something constructive, than Washington, whose good judgement held the birthing country together, long enough for there to be a country and whose moral standing stood up against a strong move by influential people to appoint him to a Monarchy, by any standard he should remain at the top of the list. Lincoln, yes. Reagan? An idiot, who was just lucky. Kennedy because he got the ball rolling for true civil rights for all. FDR because he was forward thinking and did much good for starting us down the road to modernization. Truman bringing up the end of the list, he demanded equal treatment for blacks in the military, was active in controling profiteering in the War and even though he was cut out of the loop by FDR, he was a much better leader than most any one could have been, dumped as he was into a frying pan without much support.

Let’s see, we have the Emmys, the Oscars, Miss America, USA and Universe, People Magazine’s 100 sexiest men (or whatever,) Time Magazines Person of the Year, Westminster Kennel Club Best in Show and a thousand others and now the Five Greatest Presidents.  Reagan being on the list, as far as I’m concerned, negates completely the credibility of the list.  Because the world is WAKKO on religion and money, I can say with certainty that George Bush WILL SOMEDAY be on that list.  He’s perceived as the world leader in the war against terror and those nut cases have only just begun.  We had all better love every night we can go to bed and sleep in security because it’s not going to be like that too much longer, at least without another Hiroshima.

Where’s king George “father” and king George “son of the.....” ?

May we claasify them at the bottom of ten most “wanted” presidents ?

Regan, policy wise, was basically GW Bush without the overt homicidal impulses. Sure he bombed people too, but not to this extreme.

I don’t think Regan was a great or even good president.  He was out of his mind in his second term, created the wage gap with his trickle down BS, stared the corporate slavery and “live to work” ethic, started the greatest arms race in the history of mankind, and had distain for the American worker, middle class and poor, and turned our country into the materialistic cheese factory its become.  Iran Contra was nothing noteworthy either. Lots of millionaires and lots of homeless were made, so I guess it would depend on where your values lie.

Professional historians discount Lincoln’s personal beliefs when coming to the above conclusions, however, maybe if the public was better informed, they would not be so generous.

Lincoln believed that african slaves were less intelligent, and had less capacity for knowledge than did caucasians. During his lifetime, he did not actually free all the slaves, he did emancipate those in the states in rebellion. 

I, personally, am always amazed that Teddy Roosvelt (who gave us the national parks, and warned us of the dangers of unmitigated corporate greed) never makes this list.

Any reasonable person would guess that in 50 years both Clinton (what did he do that compared to winning WW II) and Reagan will be replaced. ...and, although as a child I loved Kennedy (more for his looks and smile than for his sparce accomplishments) He gets a place on the list for his murder, rather than for his tepid support of civil rights which he would have avoided if not for his brother’s conscience.

Maybe after memories of the Vietnam war fade, LBJ will make the list for his signing of the civil rights law, and his attempt to bring some sembelance of US justice to folks lacking wealth.

I don’t think there is a damn one of them who deserves to the “Best of” title. Every single one of them was responsible for heinous deeds.

I find contemporary Presidents to be actors and opportunists.

I submit The three greatest. I would encourage you to research Lincolns speeches. You will learn the significance of this great experiment we call America.

I have excerpted material from the Whitehouse home pages.

George Washington:
On April 30, 1789, George Washington took his oath of office as the first President of the United States. “As the first of every thing, in our situation will serve to establish a Precedent,” he wrote James Madison, “it is devoutly wished on my part, that these precedents may be fixed on true principles.”

On July 3, 1775, at Cambridge, Massachusetts, he took command of his ill-trained troops and embarked upon a war that was to last six grueling years. He realized early that the best strategy was to harass the British. He reported to Congress, “we should on all Occasions avoid a general Action, or put anything to the Risqué (risk), unless compelled by a necessity, into which we ought never to be drawn.”

Washington became a prime mover in the steps leading to the Constitutional Convention at Philadelphia in 1787. When the new Constitution was ratified, the Electoral College unanimously elected Washington President. He did not infringe upon the policy making powers that he felt the Constitution gave Congress. To his disappointment, two parties were developing by the end of his first term. In his Farewell Address, he urged his countrymen to forswear excessive party spirit and geographical distinctions. In foreign affairs, he warned against long-term alliances.

Thomas Jefferson-
In the thick of party conflict in 1800, Thomas Jefferson wrote in a private letter, “I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

Jefferson, at 33, drafted the Declaration of Independence. In years following he labored to make its words a reality in Virginia. Most notably, he wrote a bill establishing religious freedom, enacted in 1786.

When Jefferson assumed the Presidency (1796), He slashed Army and Navy expenditures, cut the budget, eliminated the tax on whiskey so unpopular in the West, yet reduced the national debt by a third.  Further, although the Constitution made no provision for the acquisition of new land, Jefferson suppressed his qualms over constitutionality when he had the opportunity to acquire the Louisiana Territory from Napoleon in 1803.

Abraham Lincoln.
I discovered that to understand the implications of our form of government you need only read the speeches of Lincoln I list a few here:

The Gettysburg Address:
While dedicating the military cemetery at Gettysburg: Lincoln said, “that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions:
Address Before the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois January 27, 1838

“At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.”

“there is, even now, something of ill-omen, amongst us. I mean the increasing disregard for law which pervades the country; the growing disposition to substitute the wild and furious passions, in lieu of the sober judgment of Courts;”

“Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others.”

Americans don’t know their history.  Reagan, Kennedy, Clinton?  How about Washington, Jefferson, Truman, and T. Roosevelt.

Why let history get in the way of a poll.
Lincoln - Definitely
FDR - barely (taking us off the gold standard his biggest minus - we’re still paying for that)
Reagan(the author of deficit spending - we haven’t even begun to pay off the debt he ran up for his corporate buddies) No way.
Kennedy(his time was way to short to gauge).
Clinton(not even close - no major accomplishment in 8 years - “unparalleled prosperity” for who) The corporate world loved him. Enough said.
What happened to Washington, Jefferson even Eisenhower to name a few.