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Same old.

@roma, is that really the best answer you could come up with?

Regardless of what you think… it is a verifiable fact that General Uson was improperly tried and imprisoned, that the Supreme Court Justices chanted pro-Chavez slogans during their appointment ceremony, that the Cubans and local military misappropriated funds in the Zamora Sugar Mill project, that the National Statistic Institute reported an increase in poverty and subsequently changed the methodology used to measure it, that General Lucas Rincon announced Chavez’s resignation in April 2002 and was later awarded the highest military level by Chavez, that crime has increased five-fold since Chavez arrived…

Whether you like the people reporting this or not, they are verifiable and true facts.

So, yes, you should stay away from online discussions if you don’t know first hand what you’re talking about.

I was born and raised in Venezuela, so I know first-hand what I’m talking about.

The HRF? CATO? VCIRIS???

What, you didn’t have any numbers from Newsmax or Fox News?

Now I remember why I don’t bother with online discussions.

@roma… less corrupt? I suggest you read:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6787

for a detailed, fact-filled account of just how corrupt the Chavez government is.

More just?

then read:

http://www.humanrightsfoundation.org/usonExecutiveSummary.html

to see how Francisco Uson ended up in jail for expressing his thoughts in a talk show.

Or better yet, read this:

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2006/01/27.html

In that latter one, you’ll find out how the Supreme Court judges, while taking their oath to “justice,” chanted the Chavez motto “ooh ahh Chavez will not leave!”

Or you may want to learn about the 70 newspapers, 159 radio stations and 6 television networks under direct government control…

As for poverty, you may want to look at the government’s own figures. More on this here:

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200503311248

You’ll learn how the National Statistics Institute reported in 2005 that poverty and extreme poverty had both gone up.

After this report came out, Chavez reprimanded the head of the Statistics institute and the method for determining poverty was revised… lo and behold, better numbers. More on that here:

http://andresoppenheimer.blogspot.com/2006/06/venezuelas-elusive-poverty-figures.html

... and Mark Weisbrot isn’t exactly a credible source, anyway.

Carlos, what you ‘see’ doesn’t line up with reality.
More poverty since Chavez was elected? Wrong: poverty rates are lower than ‘90s levels and were only high in the last 7 years during (surprise!) the coup and the oil strike.
http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuelan_poverty_rates_2006_05.pdf
http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuela_2005_06.pdf
Fewer jobs? Wrong: most recent unemployment rate figures are lower than they have been in the last 20 years (couldn’t find/don’t trust data going farther back)
https://www.economy.com/home/login/ds_proLogin.asp?script_name=/dismal/pro/article.asp&cid=50583
http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/venunemp.htm
What I’m doing here is providing facts and figures from credible sources. They’re usually more reliable than ‘what Carlos sees.’

And, yes, I believe the government is now less corrupt and more just. Don’t try to paint Chavez as some sort of corrupt slimeball just because you disagree with him- it makes it hard for us to take you seriously.

@roma, are you saying that Venezuela is better off with Chavez? That it’s more democratic and just? Less corrupt? Or that because those things happened in the past, then it’s ok if they happen now? (a typical chavista excuse, by the way).

‘Cause I’ll tell you what I see… I see more poverty, more violence, fewer jobs, more corruption, less transparency. I see an exaggeration of all that was wrong in our past. I see a government making all the mistakes every communist/populist government has made throughout history.

And blaming things on the past governments is getting really old, man… Chavez has been in power for over 8 years now…

I’m not following Chavez’s word. I’m listening to a rumble much quiter, much lower, and much closer to the people. I don’t know if people like you even understand that such a thing exists.

What are you trying to say, anyways? That Venezuela was ok before Chavez? That it was in anyway democratic or just? That the poor didn’t have every reason to send that system to the graveyard?

@roma, what, exactly, don’t you buy? Everything I’ve stated is true and verifiable. I’m not “following the bureaucratic newsroll and declar[ing] who is innocent and who is guilty from that.” That is precisely what I’m against.

It is you who’s doing that actually, by saying “it doesn’t exactly take a rocket scientist, or a judge, or a lawyer, to figure out what happened in 2002.”

As far as I know, it takes an investigation, a judge, lawyers, the rule of law and most importantly, a fair trial, to figure out what happened and who’s guilty of what. (This is a generally accepted principle of civilized societies; I’m not talking rocket science here).

Are these concepts too complicated for you? Is Chavez’s “word” enough for you to convict anyone? If that is the case, I wish you luck… you’re sure to need it.

@Brian, are you justifying Chavez’s 1992 coup? Because Chavez’s forces have been equally as brutal with opposition supporters… just take a look at the numerous cases filed before the Interamerican Human Rights Commission and the International Court of Justice.

And he was also involved in the November coup of that same year… so yes, he did it twice.

And before you believe everything you read on wikipedia, Venezuela had finally shown economic growth just before Chavez attempted his coup… the economy declined rapidly after that.

The US backed a coup attempt against Chevez that failed. Why am I not suprised?                        Darth Vader and the Chimp have failed in all but a few goals that they have set out to accomplish. The great tax cuts for the allready wealthy, tax breaks for oil companies that dont need them and the great give away of American taxes to arms manufacturers and no bid contractors that happen to be buddies of Bushco.
Meanwhile, Chevez is trying to help the people of his poor country by using its natural resources for the people. What a concept.
US governments hate it when any foreign government attempts to help its own impoverished population. They are afraid that the people of the US will see that their lives could be much better if we didnt spend all of our tax dollars on defense.
As Chevez noted in one of his speeches…the vampire of the north is dying. It needs oil for its suvs and war machine and is willing to do anything to get it…even if it means setting the mid east ablaze in war. Chevez also noted that he had recently imported hundreds of thousands of AK 47s and was training his people in insurgent tactics to prevent any oil leaving Venesuela even if the US invaded. He will turn venesuela into another Iraq before giving in to a US invasion.
We need to rid ourselves of the maniacs currently in power in our country. Unfortunately, I dont see any way to overcome the power of the war profiteers, big oil, globalists, et al, and their strangle hold on ‘our’ elected officals. We are screwed…but as usual the Zionists of all stripe will scurry out of our country after its bled dry. They are the real vampires and have surely already selected their next country/victim.

“His decision to seek the power to rule by decree on certain matters for the next 18 months raises a red flag, along with his expressed desire to eliminate term limits.” 

I think this does more than raise a “red flag” and it’s analogous to the freedoms which are being steadily curtailed in the US under Dubya.  I sympathize with his ideals but not his not his methods nor his real motivation.  What’s the need for eliminating term limits? The reason is sinister and obvious.  Another “red flag” is that this man calls Ahmadinejad a brother.  The article is interesting but I think it romanticizes Chavez’s revolution.

Chavez in ‘two bloody coups’? The only coup im aware he was in was the one following on the really bloody massacre the democratic govt of the day launched on the Venezuelan people.

‘Coup attempt of 1992
Chávez calls for the surrender of all forces on national TV.
Chávez calls for the surrender of all forces on national TV.
Chávez interviewed following his 1994 release from prison. Although the coup for which Chávez was imprisoned failed, it elevated him into the national spotlight.
Chávez interviewed following his 1994 release from prison. Although the coup for which Chávez was imprisoned failed, it elevated him into the national spotlight.

  Main article: Venezuelan coup attempts of 1992

After an extended period of popular dissatisfaction and economic decline[12] under the administration of President Carlos Andrés Pérez and the violent repression known as El Caracazo,[13] Chávez made extensive preparations for a military coup d’état.[14] Initially planned for December, Chávez delayed the MBR-200 coup until the early twilight hours of February 4, 1992. On that date, five army units under Chávez’s command barreled into urban Caracas with the mission of assaulting and overwhelming key military and communications installations throughout the city, including the Miraflores presidential palace, the defense ministry, La Carlota military airport, and the Historical Museum. Chávez’s ultimate goal was to intercept and take custody of Pérez, who was returning to Miraflores from an overseas trip.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chávez

This is quite humorous.  TruthDig complains loudly via an accusation of Fascism (which is patently false because it can’t happen—the “fundamentalists” don’t have the numbers or influence) and at the same time come out in support of an avowed Marxist, friend of Castro, who dissolved the legislative body and now TD justifies him because of a call for a coup!
I’d laugh if it weren’t so sad.

Collin
http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com

Carlos, I don’t buy that. Unless you’re some conspiracy nut, I’m certain you know just how involved the corporate media was in the ousting of a democratically elected president.

You can waste your time following the bureaucratic newsroll and declare who is innocent and who is guilty from that, but it doesn’t exactly take a rocket scientist, or a judge, or a lawyer, to figure out what happened in 2002.

Reply to: #53138 by joe mull .
Fox news is as balanced as Rush Bimbo..I mean Limbaugh, who are you kidding!!! Fox news would never tell you the other side of the story. You are asking Dubyah to save our country?!??!?!  The rock you must be under has to be enourmous for you not to know that Bush has only ruined this country, and that it will take generations for us to recover.
Calling Venezuela a banana republic shows your lack of knowledge, along with all your right wingnuts.  Venezuela happens to be a member of OPEC.  Right..the shit we are addicted to.  Banana republic was fine 100 years ago. 
Yeap…the man says..lets just send the CIA over there and have them kill Chavez and install a puppet regime…what a novel idea!  Fool! 
Ah yes..burn in the flames of hell…. Spare me the stupidity.

Joe..wake up..Venezuela has a grip on our oil nuts and all it takes is one squeeze for us to squeel like the oil pig we are.  So keep driving your 8 cylinder suv, keep believing that this oil barron president ‘is going to save us’, keep electing republicant’s to office. 

If the assholes of the world could fly, we’d never see the sun.  Joe man..you are flying really high.

Headless

I dont understand all this criticism of Fox news, it is a fair and balanced media outlet. they would not say so if it wasnt, it would be unethical.

chavez on the other hand is STEALING OUR MONEY, what right does he have nationalizing the oil feilds, it is property of chevron etc..

wake up before its too late and all americans are poor. In case you didnt realize we are a wealthy nation and redistribution of wealth to the poor, what chavez is doing, is putting american lives in jeapordy.

Its time we sent in the CIA to take care of this piss ant dictator and install some real democracy in this banana republic.

George Bush, please save our homeland from these tyrants and evildoers, or GOD will judge you and you shall burn in the flames of hell.

Funny how short people’s memories are…

1. Chavez participated in not one, but two bloody coups against a democratically elected president in Venezuela. He spent two years in jail and was eventually pardoned as a good-will reconciliation gesture my then president Rafael Caldera.

2. Mr. Chavez has publicly stated that the soldiers he led on those coups did not know what they were doing. Mos of them though *they* were fighting an insurrection.

3. Many innocent civilians died on those coup attempts.

4. Even though Mr. Chavez has advanced with his plan of destroying democracy in Venezuela, our Constitution still upholds the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial. RCTV has so far received neither.

5. Do a web search on “Francisco Uson” to get an idea of what Chavez thinks of fairness and justice. Mr. Uson, for those who don’t know, was a General under the Chavez government who resigned after the April 11 events. He was eventually discharged from the army. Years later, in a talk show about three military officers burned to death in a holding cell, Mr. Uson explained how a flamethrower works and how, if it had been used in this incident, it would means this was a premeditated crime. For these remarks, Mr. Uson -then a civilian- was tried by a military court and sentenced to seven years in a military prison.

It’s like Fox News, except it doesn’t just _call_ for the overthrow in democratically elected leaders, it actively joins in the coup.

#%^#ing amazing people criticize Chavez over this- if this happened in most other countries, the people in the media would be imprisoned, harassed, or excecuted for treason.

Since you’re “digging for the truth” you may want to know that:

1. The Chavez-controlled Supreme Court determined that there had been no coup on April 11th.

2. Chavez (and the Chavez-controlled Congress) stalled and ultimately torpedoed any initiative to set up a Truth Commission to investigate the April 11 events.

3. The Army’s top General, Lucas Rincon Romero, stated on national television that as a result of Chavez’s actions on April 11th -when he called for troops to attack the opposition march- the Army High Command had made the decision to relieve Chavez from his post. Even though this was an illegal action by the High Command, General Romero was later given the Army’s highest rank by Chavez and held many top posts on his government. This event is suspiciously absent from the propaganda film “The Revolution will Not be Televised” and his permanence in the Chavez government has never been explained.

4. There are no judicial decisions against RCTV - either for their supposed actions during the April 11th events or for their programming since.

5. There are, however, several rulings by the Interamerican Court of Human Rights against the Chavez government requesting the protection of journalists and media.

6. There are no legally valid reasons for shutting down RCTV. The government has failed to present RCTV with any legal papers justifying their decision, thus preventing RCTV from legally defending themselves.

7. The Chavez government directly controls more than 5 television networks in Venezuela, some with national and international coverage and several radio stations. Indirectly, they control hundreds of radio stations throughout the country.

8. During the events of April 11th, VTV -the government’s television station- *actively* participated and constantly had high-ranking government officials calling for their followers to take to the streets and combat the peaceful opposition march.

Unfortunately, Venezuela may end up like this US, where most of the media is either pro-government or pro-pro-pro-government, especially on matters of war.  Alas, http://www.vtv.gob.ve and http://www.telesurtv.net are so loaded with worship of Chavez and demonization of his opponents that they remind one of Fox.  It is better to have an opposition media that holds no bars, in terms of peaceful criticism, than one that is fake and pretend.

A popular and populist legally-elected man as president of Venezuela? What a novel concept.

A president who wants to use the resources of his country to benefit his own people? No wonder he’s popular.

Backing the ouster of a legally elected head of state sounds like treason to me. RCTV are lucky that all they got was their license revoked.

Viva Chavez!

Sounds like Fox News to me. Perhaps the right wing of the repunglican party are trying to forment violence in Venezuela in order to manipulate public opinion against a Democraticly elected head of state. Wouldn’t be the first time.