>>>>The fact is you don’t care that Kerry LOST.  You wanted anyone but Bush to win.  YOU LOST GET OVER IT already.  and while you won’t get over it US troops are still in harms way and still getting killed.<<<<

The point was clearly missed.

In my last post, I in no way am crying over spilled milk. The point of my comment is that lessons in history must be learned. It is clear that this administration has not learned from previous misadventures and specifically about foreign intervention in Iraq. It must also be kept in mind that when an individual like George W. Bush comes up on the political horizon that the public scrutinize him. Clearly that was not done. He was voted into office because of a failure of the electoral system, particularly in Florida, where the Governors office and the Secretary of State office allowed voters to be wrongly removed from the voter rolls. The Supreme Court had no constitutional mandate to intervene.
As a result we have an individual in the highest office in the land who is arguably the worst of all chief executives in history. He has no significant legacy. Those kinds of blunders should never happen again.

Bruin with no disrespect intended you and other dems need to move on and let go of the election issue.  The fact is Bush was re-elected.  The fact is dems could have gone to court and certainly could have found at least one liberal judge in this country to over turn the election results.  The fact is you don’t care that Kerry LOST.  You wanted anyone but Bush to win.  YOU LOST GET OVER IT already.  and while you won’t get over it US troops are still in harms way and still getting killed.  The old joke in the south applies to you and others….how many southerns does it take to change a light bulb…4 ...one to change the bulb and 3 to talk about how good the old one was…...you guys are stuck in the past and you love it and while you whine and complain US troops are dying.

>>>>I don ‘t care that Bush got us in….I care that we get out<<<<

I think you, and all of us should care, very much, that ‘Bush got us in’. This is a man who in the opinion of a majority of voters (Gore won the popular vote in 2000), should not have been president. In a fluke of misguided judicial prerogative, the Supreme Court ended what should have been allowed to run its course, the complete recount of the Florida vote, in which 50,000 blacks were purposefully removed from the voter rolls (90% of these disenfranchised voters would be expected to vote Democratic). Such a travesty of electoral justice resulted in this man becoming president and the rest is history (a disastrous foreign policy, an almost nonexistant domestic policy, a corporate favoring energy policy, denial of the dangers of global warming despite warnings from virtually every climate expert in the world and refusal to sign the Kyoto Treaty, denial of stem cell research funding, Cessation of birth control funding aid for underdeveloped countries, and the list goes on and on). We should all care that such an incompetent individual never attains such a high office again.

>>>>The Dems say the status quo is wrong, but then they condemn the new plan… thereby implicitly choosing the status quo.  So which is it?  Surge?  No surge?  Do the Dems have any idea at all?  I think we both know that answer.<<<<

The Democrats unfortunately have shown little leadership and, as stated correctly, have offered little in the way of alternatives. The reason for this is clear. No one wants to be seen as not supporting our military. No one wants to be the first to say lets cut the funding to our troops. They’re in a Catch 22. They were unfortunately goaded into supporting this fiasco in a time when fear of further terrorist attacks was high. They were taken in by the now proven false rhetoric of this neoconservative dominated administration and when the resolution to give the president free reign to do as he sees fit in terms of using his office to start a military conflict, few representatives had time to read the 200 plus pages prior to having to vote on it at 3AM in the morning. I believe that the only alternative is to begin a phased withdrawal of our troops as previously recommended by the bipartisan ISG. There is clearly nothing to be gained by retaining troops in Iraq, militarily, strategically, geopolitically. There is however a lot to lose, not to mention the lives of our young men and women in uniform who have been sent in to harms was under false pretenses. There was no Al Queda in Iraq prior to the invasion, but there is now, thanks to Mr. Bush. There was never any relationship with Mr. Hussein and Al Queda eve though it became a causes belli for this administration. We already know the WMD story. The excuse for trying to democratize Iraq is also based on a complete misunderstanding by this administration of the historic, ethnic tribal and religious variables that make up Iraqi, and Arab society in general. Iraq will never be democratic. Democracy is the antithesis of the glue that holds th mainstream of Iraqi society together. Last year my colleague and I wrote an op-ed piece for a large newspaper, outlining why Iraq would never be a democracy as envisioned by Mr Bush. It was signed by 8 other colleagues, all professionals, either University professors, and physicians with ties to Iraq, who agreed with our assessment.
Finally, it is time to bring the kids home. They have done enough, honorably for the most part. They tried their best. One must recognize that America and its leaders are not infallible. It and they, make mistakes. To invade Iraq was the
“mother of all” mistakes. It will go down in history as the greatest geopolitical foreign policy blunder in America’s history. History will not be kind to George Bush because of his obsessive preoccupation with “the War on Terrorism” at the expense of other pressing issues both foreign and domestic. No matter what side of the ideologic fence you’re on, those are the facts.

Republicans still want it both ways. 

They say the Dems have no policy to solve the problems in Iraq they got us into, AND they say that Congress is not the Commander-In-Chief.

Yes, it WILL take somebody else than this crowd in D.C. to solve the problems. 

The question is - if we wait for that other entity to appear, will we be willing to let them dictate the terms of our destruction?  The crowd in D.C. has been steadily chopping away at our Tree of Liberty here at home.  A little lean one way or the other and it falls. 

The White House has also chopped away at our ability to defend ourselves by avoiding taking on defense of our borders, by committing our resources to a ridiculous war strategy against foes that don’t operate under military rules of engagement, by selling out ourselves and our potential allies to private interests with profit incentives, and by avoiding any semblance of realistic negotiations with anybody who disagrees with our policies. 

And let’s not forget wiping out a covert information network in Iran by leaking the name of one of its operatives in a fit of political pique and retribution.

Oh, yeah, Repubs.  You guys have so much policy capital on your side to justify throwing stones at your detractors…

There have been so many “mistakes” documented in the botched occupation of Iraq. Our troops and innocent Iraqis have paid with blood for the mistakes by top US officials who ran the occupation.

But what if the many “mistakes” were actually part of a larger and discreet plan?

After all, did the US really want to establish a successful and smooth-running government and then get out? Or, did Bush, Cheney and the neocons want and excuse to stay in Iraq indefinitely?

Was Iraq to be a US base for futher attacks on Iran and Syria, and to secure oil supplies and protect allies in the region?

To consider some questions about these ideas, an article of possible interest is:

“MISTAKES” OR “PLANS” IN IRAQ, WAR ON TERROR?

By Steve Hammons
Columnist, Populist Party of America
PopulistAmerican.com
February 2, 2007

http://www.populistamerica.com/mistakes_or_plans_in_iraq_war_on_terror

To Kol Klink - I always thought that unless you had a better idea, you shouldn’t condemn the current one.  The Dems say the status quo is wrong, but then they condemn the new plan… thereby implicitly choosing the status quo.  So which is it?  Surge?  No surge?  Do the Dems have any idea at all?  I think we both know that answer.

This isn’t an attempt on their part to make “concrete changes” - a non-binding resolution is far from that.  It’s simply a statement of their complete confusion and inability to formulate a coherent policy alternative.

Once again, the left is simply the “anti-right” party; and that’s not a platform.

>>>Ah yes - the liberal press is oh so trigger happy to declare the efforts to secure Baghdad, just getting under way, a complete failure.  If you didn’t know better, you might think some hope it to be so. <<<

It seems whenever a contrary opinion is offered to the current status quo, those who deem themselves conservative, come out of the woodwork and blame liberals and the “liberal press” (whatever that means) on the problems that the country is facing.  First, this war is not of our (liberal) making. Secondly, it is quite clear, no matter what your personal ideology, that this misguided, ideologically driven misadventure, is a full blown disaster with no military solution. If there is no military solution, then to expand the military role seems illogical at best. Thirdly, to assume that we “liberals” would like to see failure is unfortunate and categorically false. I find it sad that a fellow American would stoop so low as to accuse those of us who do not share his or her political/ideologic paradigm of wishing our troops, many of who are our own sons and daughters, doomed to failure. Shame on you!!
We as “liberals” are also patriotic Americans with a different opinion and our opinion is as valid as anyone who sees things differntly than us. I find these ad hominem attacks by conservatives disturbing and hatefull. After all we all wish the best for our country. We certainly are not getting it from this administration.

Kol writes…......Why do you feel it is incumbent upon the left to pull Bushcos bacon out of the fire that he dropped it in with a string of lies?

Because you dems and liberals ran in the last election on the end then war platform. You said you’d get us out the war.  I supported Bush but now realize its a war we can’t win and our best hope is Dems in Congress do what it said it would to get us out of Iraq ASAP…not 2-3 years from now.  I don ‘t care that Bush got us in….I care that we get out.  You dems now control congress…do your job and get the country out of Iraq…or else shut the hell up about what Bush did if you are not going to reverse the course

Reply to Marshall…

Why do you feel it is incumbent upon the left to pull Bushcos bacon out of the fire that he dropped it in with a string of lies?

You state that the left has failed to attempt any concrete changes in the quagmire that is Iraq. The Senate made an attempt but were stone walled by the republican side of the aisle. Now the House is making an attempt. You seem to believe an non binding resolution is not important. In future impeachment proceedings (which I hope to see come to fruition) a non binding resolution will loom very large as will the Chimps disregard for the findings of the ISG and the more recent NIE.

Bushco is continuing to dig a deeper hole for his administration in Iraq while at the same time fomenting a war with Iran. If the morons succeed in a wider war in the mid east the world will be a very different place and one which no sane person wants to see.

Does the thought of the world economy coming to a stand still, no gas at any price, no jobs, no food on supermarket shelves, no anything, make you feel good?

The comment concerning the Revolutionary War is quite apropos. Another conflict comes to mind, during which the enemy fought what the military likes to term asymmetric warfare, namely the Viet Nam War, in I am certain many who contribute to this forum were personally involved. One could also consider the Chinese Communists struggle against th Nationalist Chinese, in which guerrilla warfare was used. Asymmetric warfare is effective and makes it difficult to defend against one’s opponent and difficult to attack one’s opponent since one’s opponent is frequently blended in with the populace and is not distinguished by uniform. This pretense at salvaging what remains of America’s disastrous policy in Iraq, begun, predicated on false justifications, by arguably the worst president in the history of the Republic
is doomed to failure as assuredly as that of the policy of Lyndon Johnson forty years before in which we sent over 500,000 troops to Viet Nam. We lost that one as well.

Ah yes - the liberal press is oh so trigger happy to declare the efforts to secure Baghdad, just getting under way, a complete failure.  If you didn’t know better, you might think some hope it to be so.  The left certainly hasn’t offered any alternatives; instead condemning the status quo, but opposing any concrete changes (short of withdrawing, which only some on the far left condone).

The left has disintegrated into a muddled din of conflicting opinions and has mustered no more than a feckless non-binding resolution of rightious indignation while offering nothing concrete of their own.

Feel good?

Still waiting for the “ah-ha” moment to justify the Iraq war!

I don’t know about the “surge” but the “purge” among Iraqi’s is going really well. Wasn’t that Bu$h Inc.‘s plan all along.

Why aren’t there any military officials who have the balls to carry out a coup against the administration?

If we, the people attempted a coup, those same military officals would have the balls to take us out. Why is that?

How much money are these military officials making from this war?  Better yet, how much money are the political supporters making?

“Troop surge,” is a phrase that cheney and the military officials would translate to as meaning…“I’m rich beeeitch!”

The surge is a hoax. It is more proof that Bush is rowing with one oar. He is deranged and has spent his life being rescued from one failed venture after another.
Daddy attempted to rescue jr again with the Iraq Study Group. Jr said no, spit out his pacifier, stamped his feet and repeatedly banged his head on the floor.
If you would like to read a short, rational article that explains exactly our position in Iraq and what we can logically do to improve on on it, read the following by Gen Odom (ret). I believe he is one of the very best minds commenting on the subject.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/odom.php?articleid=10396

Dale says…Eventually the U.S. will kill so many iraqis that there won’t be any resistance left….  Dale I think you are on to something.  I didn’t realize that US troops were putting bombs in cars and driving into crowded markets and blowing up everyone.  I didn’t realize that US troops were putting roadside bombs out and then blowing them up.  You are typical of democracts who think that responsiblility for ones actions is not possible.  The people of Iraq are bombing and killing the people of Iraq.  You seem to think that US troops are not only resposible for all the civilian deaths..you believe that the Iraqs are totally innocent when it comes to killing their own.  You probably also think black on black crime is the responsibility of white people.

Re: Comment 53151 by vet240:  “The Democrats can’t be all that stupid so I’m starting to think they are complicit in this illegal war.”  You are absolutely right.  Way back before invasion I wrote letters, phoned up my Democratic congresspeople, emailed everybody even those who were not my congresspeople, letters to editors repeatedly, over and over again:  “Do not allow George Bush to declare War. Do not give him power of funds.  Don’t do it.  He lies.”  I’ve had experience with congenital liars and know one when I see/hear one.  So the problem is not stupid Democrats but complicit Democrats. The attractive thing about Obama is that he has not had the opportunity to become complicit with them.  It’s just possible he could lead the US out of the present morass.

Putting our US soldiers into the middle of religious warfare!

HOW STUPID IS GW BUSH?

Shiite and Sunni factions of Islam like Catholic and Protestant factions of Christianity have been over the centuries killing, massacring, slaughtering each other whenever the opportunity of power one-upmanship or vacuums in the power occur. 

DOES BUSH READ HISTORY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT HE READS?

bush has his head in the sand. the surge is a cover up. we knew it wouldn’t work.  darth vader, cheney, also thinks it is the right thing to do. idiots both.

QT ... you are a really articulate spokesman for the cause.

We proved in 1775-1781 that a rag-tag force of like minded individuals regardless of the rightness or wrongness of their motives could defeat a much larger and better equipped military. That was the War of the Revolution. Teh same thing has been proven time and time again since then by others.

You simply cannot defeat an enemy who refuses to fight you on your terms. When confronted with a superior force you simply melt into the forrest so to speak. You come out when it is to your advantage, attack and melt back into the forrest once more.

This “surge” has nothing to do with winning. It has to do with Bush/Cheney buying time so the war will continue to the next president thereby legitamizing their actions. Their behavior reminds me of the tactics used by the ENRON gang. Bush Cheney were close to those folks. Maybe that’s where they learned the tricks.

The Democrats can’t be all that stupid so I’m starting to think they are complicite in this illegal war. Those allies who were either threatened or paid to participate were needed by bush to legitamize his politically motivated decision to start a war with someone-anyone. He picked Iraq because he had thought his Daddy made the wrong decision in 1991 and junior needed to show his daddy he was not the bug-out that he appeared to be during the Vietnam war. bush junior is carrying a lot of emotional luggage and we have to dump this sick-sick man.

Relax!  Give it time.  Eventually the U.S. will kill so many iraqis that there won’t be any resistance left.  Of course, there won’t be any Iraq left, either.  Except wihin the castle walls of the Green Zone.  Outside the gates, women, children, and the elderly will scrounge for the remaining bits of food and shelter.  Inside, U.S. personnel and their Iraqi collaborators will gather around the pool sipping mint julips and chanting, “Let them eat cake!”

Dr. Knowitall you need to be careful.  You are dangerously close to a perfect solution to that part of the work and our involement in it.  I have stated repeatedly we cannot win fighting people who hate their enemy MORE than they love their children.  I do think we can just walk away.  I do think we can get all service men and women out in a matter of a few weeks.  Get out not before we suffer any more needless causalities and fatalitites.

The surge is only woking at the Whore House between the chimpanzees. They’re masturbated together then applaused their victories with hundreds of innocents people killed in Iraq each day.

Viva the King and his monarch !

The “surge” will work in the same way that W landed on the deck of the Lincoln: an elaborate, staged hoax, with the collusion of the media.  Put some new or old US troops in a plausibly safe neighborhood, bring in some pundits, congressmen, and celebrities for photo ops, and put an “all American Iraqi familiy” on screen to warble praise of the joys of militia erradication.  Just don’t let the cameras near the 75% of the city where fratricide, cleansing, and militia rule will go on as before.  The Iraqi police will morph into snipers of US troops and a protection racket for the militias.

Any real deployment of the *surge* would be too bloody and peter out as the US forces thinned in expanded zones with progressivey larger and leaky perimeters.  We cannot tell insurgents and militias from anyone else, and Iraqis will not inform on their own blood or sect.

Two years will go by and no one state-side will know, or will be hooted down as traitorous and Osama-loving.  2009 will be on hand, and all the big boys n gals can retire to boards of directors, blue ribbon panels, foundations, and fancy estates.  After all, tax cuts deserve some reward.  A well-endowed Bush Institute will supply the media with loquacious pundits to elevate the W legacy to Lincolnesque heights.

I’m against the “surge” as much as anyone, but let’s not be stupid. This isn’t evidence. It’s much too early for that. It could even be evidence the terrorists are worried about the surge. Let’s not weaken our own case with illogical and unreasonable statements like this.

There is a path re: out of the middle East that I haven’t heard from our misleaders.  It angers me that that whole region, which is basically third world and, for the most part, politically disheveled, has held the US (we think the most civilized and powerful country in the world) hostage for decades.  They’re sucking us dry of our blood, money and morale.  Suppose we simply walk away; the UN voted not to intervene in the first place and everyone else who went has all but pulled out.  Walking away will extract us from a religious struggle that will probably never end because it is emotional to the core.  If our walking away does interrupt or otherwise impede the flow of oil to the US, that will ironically produce, in the long run, immeasurable benefit to our lifestyle and our economy.  I believe, if Americans were encouraged by their elected misleaders to tighten their belts for a protracted period of economic hardship in exchange for peace and ultimate energy independence which will stop, once and for all, this vicious cycle of idiocy, Americans would buy it.  The good people of the Middle East might even come to their senses, realize that life on earth could even be a gift, if not for them, for their children who now have little hope for any happiness in their lives, and figure out by themselves how to live in relative harmony.