RE:  The Pope, Islam, Judaism & other faiths

What freethinkers have emphasized for centuries continues to be evaded or obscured or denied or, worst of all, unrealized by and among theists, religionists, “faith-heads” or “believers”; that emphasis remains the fallacies, unreason, fabrications, disregard for reality-constrained truth and a stubborn insistence on retaining time-worn & often irrelevant doctrines, traditions, rituals, etc., many of which are anti-science, anti-reform, anti-progress and anti-freethought.  Moreover, as Thomas Paine noted in his “Rights of Man”, 1791, and in agreement with Madison, freedom of conscience or religious liberty could not be equated with tolerance, as conceived by John Locke, nor with intolerance, for both terms have the autocratic implications which all religions embrace.  “Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance”, said Paine, “but it is the counterfeit of it.  Both are despotisms.  The one assumes to itself the right of witholding liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.  The one is the Pope armed with fire & faggot, the other is the Pope granting indulgences” (see JAMES MADISON on RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, Robert Alley, Editor, Prometheus Books, 1985).  Likewise, for one religion to “tolerate” another or to be “intolerant” of the practices, doctrines & beliefs of another implicates that ageless myth of one human being “superior” & his or her fellow-human being “inferior”.

By their very nature, then, all forms of supernaturalism carry the baggage of unreason, fabrication, nonsense, selection by a nonexistent yet almost universally accepted, monotheistic “god”, resultant exclusion of “the other” and, not least of all—both tolerance of “infidels” (those “inferiors”) and intolerance of “infidels” (those who are perceived as either “inferior” or “superior” depending on prevailing or purely arbitrary whims of the day).  If the Pope or Islamic or Jewish or Hindi or any other religious leader is serious about meaningful collaboration or interchange to end war & sustain world peace,  is it not obvious that antiquated, fabricated, sacred-text doctrines & myths, with their anti-scientific & immoral impositions on humanistic ethics first must be admitted, then either modified for real-world & real-people applications or abandoned?

Pope Benedict probably should self-criticise Christianity’s violent past before commenting on the other faith…The Pope must not take lightly the spread of outrage that has been created. The Vatican must now take full responsibility over the matter and carry out the necessary steps to rectify the mistake.One would expect a religious leader such as the Pope to act and speak with responsibility and repudiate the Byzantine emperor’s views in the interests of truth and harmonious relations. Regrettably, the Pope did not do so and this has understandably caused a lot of dismay and hurt…

Just put urself in our position now.How would u react when ppl has insulted your religion?
he just stirred muslims angers.We want peace not WAR! He’s a man of religion not a politician!
Now Muslims are really angry! The caricatures, the speech’s controversy are really too much!

...Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
this from bible,so who spreads religion by sword?

email me..

HIRMAN

remove the boulder in your eyes before you try to remove the speck in your neighbour’s.what was the need for the pope to preach about what somebody said about mohamed at this time.
has he become the ‘handmaid’ of Bush in his war for oil that god has bestowed on the nations in the middle east.
it may be well for the pope to set right the rampant sexual exploits of his clergy all over the world before he takes on the faith of the muslims.

I have been reading the posts and the negative, at times hateful remarks about Muslims
sicken me. Are not you people Christians????
Stop judging and start loving!!!!!

Lynne wrote: “I’ve been trying to think of who it is the pope reminds me of.
It’s Renfield.”

He reminds me a that lying weasel who sold me my lemon of a used car. All phony smiles and insincerity.

The papacy is all illusion - a front. Don’t believe me? Well, just imagine the Pope sitting on his throne making pronouncements IN THE NUDE. Does something to the validity of anything that comes out of his mouth, doesn’t it?

Take away the trappings… and you’ve got nothing but UGLY.

NMC wrote “People tend to forget that one of the most violent system of the 20th century followed the atheistic mindset: Communism. Just look at Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, the list goes on..”

Not unlike the killings of their own during the reign of stalin, lenin and mao, we too had our own share of killing our own. It’s called Civil War. There you have it, killing is wrong no matter who did it and there is no such thing as holier than thou. On the other hand, let’s not forget the outright extermination of native americans and hawaiin natives at the hands of so called “christians”. Need I to remind that it was “christians” who had forced opium down the chinese throat for more than 200 years and killing hundreds of millions in the process.
http://www.chron.com/cgi-bin/auth/story/content/chronicle/page1/97/06/30/hk-history-for-mon.2-0.html

When the so called “christians” violate the teaching of jesus and disregard the their god’s commandments, they are effectively no christians no matter what your arguments are. Below is a commandment for your pope.

“love thy neighbor”

I can’t believe it !  The Pope simply reads a very old quote and that give Muslims the right to burn and pilage everything around them ??  It appears that the TRULY real threat to Muslim world image are the Muslim extremists who use ANYTHING as an excuse to cause death and destruction.  Respect is earned by actions…and the actions of many extremists only perpetuates the negative image of Muslims in the world press. So police the actions and words of the trouble makers of Islam BEFORE you police the words of others…then and only then will you start gaining respect around the world !

NMC, you must have missed Sam Harris’s Truthdig interview (find it here: http://www.truthdig.com/interview/item/20060403_sam_harris_interview/), because in it Harris neatly dissects the argument you have just provided, which is that atheism is like a dangerous religion because some of the bloodier instances in recent world history have been carried out by atheistic regimes.

Atheism is not a monolithic entity that one can ascribe a creed to.  Atheism in and of itself does not articulate an ethic.  That is, atheism does not say how one should act.  Therefore, one cannot blame the actions of any group or individual on atheism alone.

Like people that do not believe that Elvis is still alive, atheists can come in all stripes and colours.  Yes, there are some zealous atheists that treat their non-belief in a religious manner (that is, proclaiming a position without being able to articulate good reasons for it and protecting it with moral indignation), but not all atheists or non-theists are like this (take me, for instance).  Your claim that atheists are “some of the most fanatical people out there” is undemonstrated and seems to be patently false according to common-sense notions of fanaticism.  Daily occurrences of theistic fanaticism are reported in the media, but not atheistic fanaticism.  Clearly you are over-stepping yourself by making this claim.

You have listed Hitler amongst atheistic despots, yet he invoked God for his cause numerous times.  As for the rest of the people in your list, atheism alone cannot explain their actions.  As Harris says in the interview I made reference to above, these individuals practiced a type of political dogmatism that is akin to religious dogmatism (and atheistic dogmatism, where it exists).  The substantial problem that lies behind every non-natural evil is a failure to think critically.  Critical thinking can do away with every instance of human-caused preventable evil that you can provide.  Doing away with atheism will not protect us from evil, as history has demonstrated countless times.

“...after the rise of atheism in the 19th century, this world has never seen a bloodier time.”

Do not confuse correlation with causation.

An Advice to Fellow Muslims:

In the Qur’an God speaks to the believers saying, “And you will certainly hear from those who were given the Book before you as well as from the idolaters much hurting words; in this case if you bear patiently with consciousness of Him, that would the way most desired by Him.” (Qur’an: 3:186) 

This Qur’anic quotation shows that the price for a firm and strong faith would be insult and ridicule by people of other faiths as well as by atheists and idolaters. God puts this in terms of the tests and trials true believers must endure. He urges patience and perseverance in the face of such mean-spirited verbal attacks.
 
In light of this, I would like to urge my fellow Muslims to be patient and not react out of control.
 
Certainly, when a person of the caliber of a Pope, representing 1.3 million Catholics says such things it is a serious matter and it could be perceived as almost a declaration of war against Islam, or at least an incitement for hatred and violence that might lead to a larger war. But Muslims should also think of this as a sign of the insecurity and nervousness of the Pope when he sees his followers leaving his church in large numbers and many of them embracing Islam, as is the case in traditionally Catholic territory as Brazil.

Moreover, the Catholic Church is plagued by the moral disease of child-molestation. So attacking Islam can also be perceived as scapegoating for the ills of the church!

And scapegoating has been at the root of many world conflicts and wars of which the Nazi experience was a classical example. George Bush is taking America that path.

I don’t want my religion of Islam to be dragged into wars that would be blamed on it. Let those who had the honor of giving humanity both WWI and WWII have the honor of giving it WWIII when it happens.

Hitler was a bona fide roman catholic. There were enuff selectted quotes from Mein Kampf to prove it. “Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible’s God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery’s coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler’s most ardent goal was to become a priest…...”
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

No one is able to coverup this hitler from roman catholicm. No one.

I’ve been trying to think of who it is the pope reminds me of.
It’s Renfield.

What most people fail to realize is that the most violent religion in modern history is atheism. Most people will ask ‘how is atheism a religion’? Let’s be serious, atheists are some of the most fanatical people out there, and hardly anyone talks more about God than atheists. They certainly act like they follow a religion.

People tend to forget that one of the most violent system of the 20th century followed the atheistic mindset: Communism. Just look at Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, the list goes on. Millions of people killed because these guys just did not feel they will be taken into account for their actions.

Let’s not fool ourselves; after the rise of atheism in the 19th century, this world has never seen a bloodier time.

I have read the entire speech of the present pope. Of course Muslims and others should be offended.It is a Bush-like speech, ie when Bush is not directly lying: the offending quotation is inserted, yes, in a speech re the need for faith as well as science, also that violence is contary to faith and reason.
Why bring up the idea that the only new thing that Muhammed introduced was violence? Only if the pope is stupid might he be surprised that he has offended Muslims.At least the previous pope apologized for centuries of violence done by the Church to Jews. This one should take stands against all violence, perhaps in Jesus’ name.

With the help of the old born-again Nazi Pope, the world will see a revival of a new era of Nazism. Here’s my response on the Pope’s Nazi rhetoric.
Hardly a year after the chauvinist and crude attempt at stereotyping and attacking Islam by an unknown bigot right-wing Danish cartoonist seeking notoriety at any cost, comes another evil attempt against Islam by an ex-Nazi-turned-Pope, showing his true colors and turning Nazi again; but this time this Nazi language is done, without equivocation, in the name of a Christian religion and namely in the name of Catholicism. I am glad that Catholicism rhymes perfectly with fascism, Nazism, Communism, Capitalism and so on; whereas Islam stands as linguistically unconnected to any of these “isms” unless the coiners of evil languages would artificially force the word “Islamism” into the dictionary as they have devilishly forced the phrase “holy war” for “jihad”; which means in Arabic “an all round struggle against evil; whether from without or from within.” The expression “holy war” has no single occurrence, neither in the Qur’an nor in the voluminous sayings or traditions of Prophet Muhammad. Only the lucky enlightened few in the West know that the expression “holy war” was first coined by the Christian Crusaders of the West in the Middle Ages to describe their own bloody wars and campaigns against the Muslims. When it suited their evil propaganda against Islam, the so-called enlightened Western enemies of Islam started erroneously, but deliberately, to use the expression of “holy war” to translate the Qur’anic word “jihad.”
So here we go again, with the latest propaganda myth of the West about Islam, which aims at brainwashing the minds of simple unscrupulous people into believing that Muslims’ ultimate goal is to force Islam on the world. Their ultimate purpose is, however, to keep people frightened so they can be controlled by their own governments and religious institutions to continue getting people’s taxes and church donations. The bottom line in all this is the evil mighty dollar and what it can do to keep the powerful and dominant political and religious class in power.
May I remind the evil and ignorant Pope that imposing religion by force was the trademark of the church he heads in the well-documented historical Inquisition started in Spain against Jews and Muslims and extended later on even against non-Catholic Christians.
A sincere advice to the not-so-sincere Pope: Instead of wasting the little intellectual power you have on attacking and denigrating the faith of one fifth of humanity in all parts of the world, why don’t you devote your energies to solving the problem of child-molestation by your priests, which has become another trademark of Catholicism due to its frequent occurrence in recent years?! 
“God is not pleased by blood…” says the irrational blind Pope in his diatribe. The old man has forgotten that the most cherished symbol of his religion is a “bloody cross,” where God, the Father, allowed and planned the slaughtering of “His only begotten Son,” so that ugly, stupid, evil and irrational people like him would attain “Salvation” and charge money from struggling people to get that “salvation” through his priestly class. That’s what I call the ultimate irrationality, and that’s why my pride in my chosen religion of Islam flourishes every day. In Islam, the highway to God is free open to every individual without intermediaries charging a toll for passage. That’s what I call freedom, rationality and respect for God and believers in Him. Thanks Mr. Pope for strengthening my faith in a more rational religion than yours!

Hmm, the Pope piggy-backing his anti-Mohammed treatise on to Bush’s mutterings about Islamo-fascism and the so-called clash of civilizations.  Let’s see, there’s black gold galore in the Middle East plus hundreds of millions of Moslems (ie ptentional forced converts to Christianity).  And Ferdinand and Isabel (er, President George Bush) already have sent their conquistadores to that part of the world on some sort of holy mission to spread freedom and democracy.  Obviously this is too good for his Holy Eminence to turn down -  “If Spain could put up umpty-ump cathedrals with Aztec gold, how many can I build with oil, not to mention all of those forced converts.”  Some humanitarian, this latest Pop;e.  The Grand Inquisitioner lives agains..

Fabio wrote, in part “...how greek reason and thought find their way into early christianity and faith.”

I submit that “REASON” and “THOUGHT” are the ANTITHESIS of “FAITH.”

In #23703, Joe R. asks “Are we really stupid enough to destroy ourselves over books that are thousands of years old and were written by religious fanatics who thought the world was flat?  The answer is, “Probably.””

My answer is…. A DEFINITE “YES.”

One thing I find kinda curious. MOST individuals I encounter seem to be reasonable, gentle souls who go about their business doing as little damage to others and the environment as possible. SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THESE “INDIVIDUALS” GET TOGETHER IN GROUPS?

As an individual, say Muslim, I wouldn’t dream of going next door and murdering a, say Christian, would I? Would an ordinary Jew put a bullet in the brain of a Buddhist because of different religious philosophies?

So again, I ask. What’s with us that when we get together in like-minded groups, we become murderous maniacs willing to destroy everyone and everything in sight?

This Pope has all the legitimacy of a pampered rock star. Can’t sing. Can’t dance. Can’t even act. But lordy, what nice costumes, sets and props! (Christ wouldn’t be found alive or dead in those golden robes and jewels but that’s another argument.)

“Benedict XVI has since apologized for his speech, which quoted a Byzantine emperor who said the prophet Muhammad had brought only “evil and inhuman” things to the world.”

And the Catholic interpretation of Christianity HASN’T? Think about his choice of quotations for a minute. How long would YOU have had to search to find it? It’s not in any references I have. You have to go DELIBERATELY out of your way to find (or perhaps INVENT) just the right STICK to stir the pot just enough to keep it boiling but not boiling over. A cool down (PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE) doesn’t produce PROFITS or POWER TRIPS. The Catholic church clearly depends on both for its continued existence.

“he ought to go back to chasing those altar boys”

OH WHY NOT. HIS TREACHEROUS RELIGION HAS ALREADY F****ED THEIR MINDS.

It’s quite troubling to see that when pope made this infamous quote, he actually closed his eyes to the atrocities being committed by few christianity nations and the jewish state.

Do you think the pope has the nerve or intellect to attack protestants in UK for their oppression against roman catholics in Northern Ireland?

The world would be so much at peace without some of the desert religions, which had been, still are and will be the souce of human miseries.

There are simply too much hatred among religious lots.  All of which date back to thousands of years. Lets not forget 2 world wars were started by christianity nations, not to mention the infamous crusade. Of which, is the ultimate symbols of genocide, intolerance, bigotry, bloodshed, gender and racial discrimination, aggression…...

I would debate with your god(d), if there is a god of yours.

One wonders if this Pope is an historical illiterate and/or is totally lacking in ironic self reflection. Early in the 14th century, the century in which the Greek Orthodox prelate made the statement quoted by Benedict about Islam being spread by the sword, the Roman Catholic Pope Innocent III ordered the first act of European genocide, the annhiliation of the Cathars, a version of Christianity that was morally superior to Catholicism and was flourishing in northern Italy and southern France. Historians have determined that around a million innocent people were put to the sword as the result of Pope Innocent’s decree that the Cathars be destroyed. 

Two centuries later, Catholic Spain began the conquest of the “new World” and millions of native Indians in both north and south America were put to the sword and millions of others were forcibly “converted” to Catholicism at swords point. On wonders when Muslims ever “converted” so many people with the sword?

Pope Benedict is either historically illiterate and does not know of these events (which seems unlikely) or he is obtuse and not capable of ironic reflection about the historic crimes of the Catholic Church. Either way, it is very hard to have much respect for him. Jerry Falwell’s and Pat Robertson’s frequent outrageous utterances make about as much sense as the Pope’s obtuse remarks and behavior in this instance.

For the Pope or any other Roman Catholic spokesperson to accuse another religion, whether Islam or any other, of spreading it’s faith by the sword is a classic case of the pot callng the kettle black. The Catholic Church has its own evil history to live down and that is what should be of interest to the Pope (i.e. how the Catholic can ever make amends for all the historic evil it has done and been responsible for ?) not the real and/or alleged evil deeds of Islam

The pope should be commended on addressing head on the issue of violence and God.

The main issue remains; the reflection leads to the main issue that “Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul”. Picking up a fight with the pope of the subject of quoting Paleologos is a side issue. It is not because some disagree with his Christians conservative views that we should disagree with him now.

Moslems from the past support him; it is today’s illiterate clerics who cannot stomach self expression and debate. Andalusian Abu Al-Walid Mohammad Ibn-Rushd (Averroes), clearly concluded “when revelation entered into contradiction with reason as constituted by the philosophers, it must be reinterpreted until that contradiction was resolved”...

It is tragic that, having once saved the great texts of Greek philosophy, expanded on it, and used the great thinkers to enrich Islamic though, the Arabs today are now rejecting it.

Welcome to the Dark Ages.

I am surprised at how many people are willing to make comments on the pope’s words (part of an article he read last tuesday, at a German University), while seemingly having very little information about what he actually said.

The confusion can only arise, if the pope’s statements are totally taken out of context.  And this is what many of the responses in the islamic world (as well as comments on this page) seem to have done.

In a fairly long ‘academic’ article (well worth reading), the pope makes historical observations on faith and reason, tracing how greek reason and thought find their way into early christianity and faith. 

The pope’s main argument is that the modern concept of scientific-empiric thought and reason is rather limited, because it does not consider either faith or philosophy inside its realm.

In my reading, one of the pope’s intentions seemed to be to stimulate dialag within religions.  The criticisms of his speech seem a little unfair in my view…

Anyway, here is a link to the pope’s entire article:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

Christainity or any other religion holds no moral superiority over Islam. For Pope to make such a statement and then prentend shock at the reaction of Muslims is believe that he is an idiot of the first order. Any religion is a question of faith. It has very little scientific or historical objectivity as the basis. The Pope by making such a statement has reduced himself into a petty individual who seeks to use religion to further the agenda of those in the west who wish to exploit religion as an imperialistic tool.

I’m sure a fatwa will be forthcoming from appropriate muslim personnel.  Why not, if it has to do with religion in this world today, you might as well kill anyone who disagrees with you on the god subject.  After all, my god is better than your god.
The Scandinavian countries are looking better every day.

If anyone is puzzled by Muslim reaction to the Pope’s statement, my response would be to take some time and read the Koran.  I promise it will not take long to figure out where they are coming from.

It really does not matter what we do.  They are mad as hell and spoiling for a big fight.  Our actions over the last 5 years have made it worse but the spread of fundamentalism throught out the worlds religions would have caused conflict regardless of what we do.

There will not be any stopping a wider war once it starts.  We better get that through our heads.

Our superstisions are going to result in a lot of misery and death, because religion is responsible for most of the human suffering throughout our history.  In trying to understand our existence we have created elaborate mythologies to protect us from death and to put meaning in our lives.  We believe in them so strongly that we will shun or even kill those who have different myths.  But the fact is none of us know what is on the other side of life.  Only the dead know and they aren’t talking.

Sam Harris is right.  The world needs to unite in the cause of rejecting these foolish religions that cause men to hate and kill each other.  Man needs a wider discussion on what reality is.  Are we really stupid enough to destroy ourselves over books that are thousands of years old and were written by religious fanatics who thought the world was flat?  The answer is, “Probably.”

The thing is, if the pope fails to apologize, the muslim world likely will only prove him right by escalating to violence as they did after the allah cartoons.

So what is his motivation to apologize, if he knows his sentiments will be validated if he merely waits.

somebody calls him ‘der Panzerpapen’

he ought to go back to chasing those altar boys

I have a few thoughts on this subject.  First, nobody should be surprised that the pope made this statement.  The pope must find at least something wrong with what Islam adds to Christianity, otherwise he would be a muslim.  This pope has been bluntly outspoken on other issues as well, such as gay marriage and abortion.

Second, the response from the muslim community that has been widely circulated in the media has consisted entirely of expressions of moral outrage.  This is similar to the muslim response to the cartoons, except that the muslim reactionaries eventually formed an attempted reductio ad absurdum by publishing their own offensive cartoons.  This reductio failed, but at least it approached reason.  If muslims take issue with the pope’s statement, then the responses that they should be providing to the media (and those the media should be publishing) should consist of something more compelling than simple expressions of moral outrage.