Re: Comment #16825 by Stephen Smoliar on 8/05 at 7:51 am

“I have to take issue with Hilding Lindquist:  ‘voting is the packaging that comes with the gift of reasoning between informed participants.’ The best packaging for the ‘reasoning between informed participants’ is CONSENSUS.”

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough —or go far enough in my explanation. You see, “reasoning between informed participants” is the process of forming consensus/agreement. And voting is the means by which we indicate whether or not we have reached consensus/agreement. The last time I was in a consensus building group (fairly recently, I’ve just taken the summer off from my group activities) the larger we were the more we used a show of hands or some other voting mechanism to indciate how close we were to consensus/agreement.

My point was that coming to consensus/agreement (deciding as a group) through informed reasoning by the participants is the substance of democracy (there’s some history here). The mechanism for marking who is in agreement and who is not—voting—is simply that.

However, because we are dealing with millions of diverse people—who probably will never reach a true consensus on any specific agreement—it does not mean we have to abandon informed reasoning between the participants.

There have been a number of studies out that demonstrate that a group of people each one of whom makes an individual decision about something like the jellybeans in a jar will produce an average that is pretty close to the actual number ... even though there are outliers way off the mark.

Central to all this is transparency ... the people have to be able to see the jelly beans in the jar in order to make an informed estimate.

Stephen ends his comment with, “This takes us back to the hypothesis that our problem is not that America is not a population of ‘informed participants’ but that the mass media are doing everything they can to keep them from BEING ‘informed participants!’”

I don’t know of a time when the population of these United States was not being misinformed by yellow journalism, end times evangelism, corporate interests, labor interests, political interests, war machine interests, etc., etc., etc.

The one thing that I know that motivates the “population” of our nation to take action is the loss or the threatened loss of there livelihood ... or some part thereof.

What the Neocon corporationists have accomplished to date, is put us firmly on the path to a major upheaval due to the continuing economic degradation of labor.

Maybe they actually believe they can turn the United States into a banana republic with a huge split between economic classes dividing them into owners (i.e., those who own enough to support themselves and their families) and workers… but the workers have no place to go but into the streets.

(Of course there is always the prospect of another World War to bail ‘em out.)

And I also believe that the primary “creative” dialectic in a capitalist society (which gives it its vibrant strength) is between the interests of asset and knowledge capital on one side pursuing their self-interst (with their own little sub-dialectic contributing to the mix) and the interests of labor on the other side pursuing its self-interest. (Give either side the upper hand, and you got trouble.)

But I digress. What I do believe is that if we abandon reason and transparency in a democracy, voting doesn’t count.

I have to take issue with Hilding Lindquist:  “voting is the packaging that comes with the gift of reasoning between informed participants.”  The best packaging for the “reasoning between informed participants” is CONSENSUS.  It is through consensus that we recognize the need to both make a decision and honor the differences of opinion behind that decision.  The extent to which Americans still believe that consensus is more important than voting results is reflected in the Pew Forum study reported in THE RAW STORY:

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/American_culture_wars_exaggerated_0804.html

Here is the important quote from that study:

“Abortion continues to split the country nearly down the middle. But the large majority in favor of finding ‘a middle ground’ on the issue extends broadly across the political and religious spectrum. Only one group expressed unwillingness to find a middle way. Two-thirds (66%) of those who support an outright ban on abortion say there should be no compromise. In contrast, two-thirds of those who want abortion to be generally available are ready to seek a compromise.”

This gets me back to another way in which I feel inclined to bash mass media these days.  The mass media are not interested in consensus, because consensus does not sell stuff.  Ultimately, the marketplace is all about voting—choosing one product over another.  So it is only natural that the media are going to report in a way that encourages a mind-set that favors electoral choice (voting with your pocketbook, as it were) over consensus.  Folks of my age were probably first aware of this during the Kennedy-Nixon debates;  but I am sure that the influence of the market mentality on the reporting of political matters goes back much further than that.

This takes us back to the hypothesis that our problem is not that America is not a population of “informed participants” but that the mass media are doing everything they can to keep them from BEING “informed participants!”

Under Bush’s leadership there are growing pockets of fundamentalists at the state level. Ohio is a hotbed with a sharply contested gubernatorial race between a staunch fundamentalist in Ken Blackwell and a moderate methodist minister in Ted Strickland. We started http://www.happyagenda.com to track what is happening in Ohio - a very important state that is at the center of this debate about “values voters” and the role of extremists in politics.

Religion:  The root of all evil.  Google that title, and watch the documentary…

One third of Americans who support Israel believe that the Jews must possess their own country before Jesus can return.  Controversial but definitely not off the table, the territory of the “Land of Israel” runs from the Nile to the Euphrates including most of Syria, Lebanon and much of Jordan, perhaps much of central Turkey. Is it possible that Mr. Bush has been in recent conversation with G_d who told him not to sweat Lebanon because, afterall, HE did promise it to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?  And then there’s Iraq. Does the Euphrates of the Bible run through present day Iraq?  And we thought it was all about oil.  Anybody want to bet that the day the Decider, if that isn’t a G_d word I don’t know what is, leaves office he’s off to Jerusalem to work on the Third Temple, which, among other things like red heifers has to be completed to kick off the apocalpse.

Yes the rapture is BS and GB wants to fufull that bogus and BS prophecy so these fanatics can glorify thier actions. They want to make people like bush a hero becuase he’s religious. Alot of the killers and murders can get away with it if they say it was in the name of god. Well they should not get away with it! No one should be able to, if they do then they are demented freaks who need to be tortured.

“if god told you to jump off the empire state building would you do it”

Well, maybe the mainstream media is finally wakening up to the insanity of Fundamentalist Christians (FCs) and their obsession with the Rapture aka The Second Coming of Jesus Christ aka The Return of Jesus Christ. I was raised one—an FC ... my mother actually believed her children (like me and my siblings) would witness Christ’s return. FCs believe that they will be raptured BEFORE the seven years tribulation ... so bringing about the Battle of Armageddon and the destruction of the world as we know it, is not a problem for them.

The flip side of GE’s insanity is his concept of democracy. He thinks it’s a contest with ballots instead of bullets. And whatever you do to win the election is OK, as long as you win ... THAT is the American way.

GW has absolutely no comprehension that voting is the packaging that comes with the gift of reasoning between informed participants. If their is no gift, the packaging is not simply worthless, it is a hoax.

A HUGE problem in all this is that all movements have momentum, social movements as well as physical movements ... and the Neocon movement has enough power and wealth wrapped up in it, that altering its course—let alone stoppeing it—take an tremendous amount of time and energy in oppostion.

The tendency in the face of some seemingly overwhelming struggles is for the individual citiizen to become discouraged and ask, “What can I do against such odds?”

The answer comes out of the recent understanding of chaos theory AND the two thousand year old teaching attributed to a man named Jesus: “If we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move (redirect) a mountain (a boulder rolling down a mountain).” That is, if our faith is the basis of our actions.

No one has an excuse to not do whatever he or she can. Choosing to not do anything is a choice.

Even the butterfly makes a difference.

I also feel that it is not particularly new that the mass media have avoided taking on this issue.  Saul Friedman certainly gave a more articulate account of the problem than we have usually seen, but the heart of his argument really lies in his analysis of the brute-force bully tactics that the White House now engages in its relations with the Press.  The currency of White House journalism is access;  and, for the most part, the mass media realize that they can jeopardize their access by getting too close to too many sensitive issues.  Bush’s faith is probably one of the most sensitive of those issues, so I doubt that even Friedman’s voice in the wilderness is going to have much effect on the current trends in journalism.

Wake up people! Bush is not a practicing Christian. When he accepted membership into Yale’s “Skull and Bones” secret society he was required to perform pagan acts so as to denounce belief in any deity. The members of this group are highly educated, elitist and seeking high ranks in the corporate and political realm. These men are the “illuminati” you’ve heard so much about in conspiracy theories. These men know that believing in Christianity, Islam and Judaism are tantamount to believing in Thor, Isis and Baal. The information they have is available to all of us. Most of us choose to remain in a dream world. We’ve been brain washed by our rulers and priests for thousands of years.

Bush comes off as a buffoon and a religious fundamentalist.  Did you ever wonder if it is all an act?  Ask yourself; is this guy a Yale graduate? The hard truth is yes and his public persona is a facade. He is sending men and women to their deaths in the Middle East and there is no remorse from him only token gestures. He can’t “feel their pain”. His only justification is “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” as Gene Roddenberry would say.  A few good people die so that the oil keeps flowing.

Just for a moment consider that the president is of unknown theology. With that context, examine his actions. If you were to know only this man’s actions, would you characterize them as Christian in basis? Perhaps, but only if you ascribed to the vengeful, horrifying Yahweh of the Old Testament as being the one true god. Lest anyone say; “my guy wasn’t corrupt”, Kerry, Clinton, Reagan and countless others were all from the same group. Surprise, our “two party system” is really one party. Do a little internet research, you’ll be shocked!

What I’m stating here is a lot to chew on.  Don’t let that stop you. Right here and now is your life, take a bite of the forbidden fruit and wake up. Come on people, why did the “tree of knowledge” have forbidden fruit? So that only a select few would rule!  There is nothing wrong with not believing in a god.  Many of our founding fathers were not theists (again, do a little research!). What is wrong is being untrustworthy and immoral. Trust and morality are not gifts from a god, they are paths chosen by individuals. We need to choose our paths and leaders with more care. We need to judge by actions not by stated beliefs.

Here’s a link to Karen Armstrong’s article quoted above.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1833794,00.html

And here’s an article about Evangelical leaders in America lobbying for Armageddon. What should frighten rational Americans is how many of our Senators and Congressmen pander to the religious right. McCain included. We may not be better off after this Bush administration goes away:
http://www.alternet.org/story/39748

So what?

The “church”?  Which church?  Is some papal-class authority coming in and telling Bush what to do?  There is no religion ruling the land.  That’s a pretty blatant falsehood for which you should apologize.

This reads of fear-mongering and is a type of religious bigotry no different in form and content than Mel Gibson’s statements.  And sadly for you, you’re apparently sober.

Everyone in office holds to a belief system and brings that paradigm into office.
There is no religious test allowed for office holders, per the Consititution.  So to pretend that one should set aside a world view is not only a bit of demagoguery, it’s also contrary to the Constitution

Collin

http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com

The GOP, a coalition of crooks, morons and religious fanatics apparently represents the will of a majority of Americans who vote. If you don’t vote and don’t fit into any of those three categories, you might want to consider voting from now on. Don’t fool yourself, things could get a lot worse if you don’t

Now is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their country.

VOTE! . . IMPEACH! . . VOTE! . .  IMPEACH!

My mother, a Korean war veteran, told me with tears if her eyes, that for the first time in her life she was ashamed to be an American.  Her brother has lived for many years in Europe (Denmark, now in Spain) and she hears the real scoop from him - what the world really thinks about the thug-in-chief and his cohorts are doing to our planet and the people living on it.  I say, she nor anyone else who tried to keep these liars and thieves out of the White House should be ashamed - but the folks up there in D.C. who are robbing, raping and pillaging had better worry about their Savior’s return - did they read the scripture about how ticked of the Master was when he returned and found the overseer hadn’t taken care of the slaves and vineyards left in his keeping?  Who truly is the faithful and discreet slave, George?  How you gonna con J.C., Rummy?  Think you can spin the story with Jehovah, Karl?  It’s obvious to anyone really looking that these guys really are just using God and the “religion card” to further their very mundane, albeit greedy, agendas.  If I were them, I’d be praying my patootey off that the Rapture doesn’t happen for quite a long while!  But that would mean they actually believed their religious hype. It’s not a disgrace to be lied to - it is a disgrace to be the one doing the lying.  God’s keeping track, all you folks up there in D.C. - and if he’s not, plenty of cameras and journalists are! The info’s out there, has been all along - people just need to stop letting themselves be used and stand up in the time-honored American fashion. Demand honest elections (no electronic voting machines is a good start) and VOTE !!!

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I actually walked out right in the middle of a church service when the pastor said, “a vote for ademocrat is a vote against god”.

Comment #16548 by Gandersen on 8/03 at 9:59 pm
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Isn’t it the condition that religious places are tax-exempt is that they remain a-political?

I believe it is.

That church you so rightfully exited when you were being told to vote against one political party should have it’s tax-exemption revoked!

I hope this concept is not new to any of you?  This is been the problem from day one.  George Bush and his admin. have “used” god to accomplish so many things that i am sure god is weeping.  I actually walked out right in the middle of a church service when the pastor said, “a vote for ademocrat is a vote against god”.

The irony here is, that the reason the middle east is so wacked out is that religion is the foundation for their government.  They do not even take a dump unless they pray.  So, everything becomes a holy issue(wars, conflicts, cadidates…)

George Bush is doing the same thing in America only using a different god.  George uses God and terrorists interchangably as excuses for all his decisions.  Neither will ever come or go away; they will always be there when he needs them.

The difference between the religions fanatics in the middle east and the religious fanatics in the white house are just which god they happen worship.

They both use God to justify anything they need to justify. (murder, cheating, law breaking, human rights violations, bilking the working class….)

Mark my words,
Religion will be the undoing of America.  When a society is based on diversity such as our melting pot society, no one religion can rule the land.  We must all be free to worship as we please and not impose our beliefs on others.

Sincerely,

Proud to be an American, but embarassed lately.