Hey Ed—I wasn’t disputing the veracity of the photo just because it was in a Murdoch rag. (Bumper sticker seen in Melbourne: “Is that the truth, or did you read it in the Herald-Sun?") Just trying to give some political/cultural perspective. Although I DO agree that an AA gun is more of a defensive weapon than a ground-to-ground rocket launcher.

And I’m no fan of militant Muslims. A mob (using that in the Aussie kangaroo-ish sense of the word) of Lebanese demonstrators hijacked our anti-nuke group’s Hiroshima Day march and turned it into an Israeli flag-burning episode in front of the state Parliament building Sunday. Not the right tone for a peace march.

My point is, Israel has done itself no favours by blasting Lebanon back to the pre-industrial age to avenge the kdnapping of two soldiers. It will only harm Israel in the long run to have a failed state full of seething angry people on its northern border. Israel could have fought back without going into “bomb the power plant” mode and kept the moral high ground. Its over-reaction has made me stop supporting its actions, and I’m someone whose blood and sweat is literally in the soil of the Holy Land, courtesy of a summer spent working in the banana fields of Kibbutz Sha’ar Ha-Golan in 1980.

Re: Comment #17037 by ed_tru_lib on 8/06 at 10:11 am

Following: Comment #16637 by Hilding Lindquist on 8/04 at 9:28 am

Following: Comment #16496 by ed_tru_lib on 8/03 at 2:55 pm

Following: Comment #16458 by Hilding Lindquist on 8/03 at 11:50 am

Following: Comment #16261 by ed_tru_lib on 8/02 at 10:45 am

Kicked off by: Comment #16217 by Hilding Lindquist on 8/02 at 7:29 am

So, ed_tru_lib, you dropped the ball ... how come? ... is it just easier to write mindless insults when you don’t agree with others?

Reason is the enemy of fundamentalism. Spinoza was right 350 years ago and he is still right today.

Just review the list of UN resolutions against Israel and why they were made, and then tell me again that Israel has clean hands in this conflict. And I am not saying Hezbollah has clean hands either. But Israel is my nation’s ally, and since we call ourselves a Christian nation ... and a teaching atttibuted to the person called Jesus is that I should be concerned about the 2 x 4 in my eye before I worry about the sliver in someone else’s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolution s_concerning_Israel

And as I believe, in accordance with other teachings of the same Jesus, that it is up to the strong to break the cycle of violence, and I do believe we are a strong nation, quite possibly the strongest ever ... we should be the peacemakers, as in “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.”

You see, it is so OLD Testament to be going around killing men, women, childrens, and even the animals in the name of Jehovah.

Posting, and thereby participating in debate, can be fun, cathartic, educational, or frustrating. And not infrequently its a combination of some or all of those. Rarely though, does posting, or very much in life, produce the instant and blessed karma of seeing the worst of your opponents PROVEN by their own wrong, silly, insane, or in no small number of cases on this subject-just plain evil views, SHOWN TO ALL to be dead wrong.
Scroll back to the early posts on this report, and you see no shortage of people not just questioning the integrity of the report, the truth of the photograph, but denying the obvious proof of hezbollah terror and treachery to their own people etc, because it came from a Murdoch-owned paper. Then go to Huffington Post and see where the report-not even carried(yet) on truthdig or by much of the mainstream media, of Mel Gibson’s long association in Australia with an openly anti-semetic, holocaust-denying organization, was BROKEN LAST NIGHT BY THE SAME PAPER!!!  And Mel is the right’s favorite actor, well at least since Charleton Heston had to take retirement. Gee looks like the no-spin zone gets it right more often than I thought, and the progressive, humanist, true liberal media, gets it wrong more than once. And of course the raving pseudo-left anti-Israel-at-all-times-for-any-or-no-excuse gang, and the lunatic anti-semites and unashamedly evil, as always, gets it dead wrong.

I think Israel is doing a very good job of restraining itself and of using moderate force on an enemy that refuses to even adhere to the most basic forms of human decency. Don’t forget Hezbollah supporters are on video hacking the heads off civilians and also shooting people in summary executions without trial or recourse to any form of judicial system. Israel is sympathetic to world opinion, but of course it first loyalty and obligation is to its own people and interests.

People who think that because Israel is superior militarily, that this is being unfair. Have no argument. The police don’t take their body armor and guns off because a perpetrator of a crime is armed only with a knife. Overwhelming force is usually used in any conflict. Um its how you win.

As for Australia never being bombed Mr Charles Newlin. I think you may have forgotten that Darwin was bombed repeatedly by the Japanese in WW2 and that Sydney suffered an attack by midget submarines also. Both attacks resulting in loss of Australian lives.

The problem is not Israel’s fault. This whole debacle we are in at the moment is because of the corruption in the UN. It allowed Lebanon to arm itself under the guise of Hezbollah and attack Israel. Then there is Europe’s historical hatred and mistreatment of the Jews. It is time that Europe made peace with the Jews. Then and only then can the problem be solved between Israel and the Arabs.

Re: Comment #16496 by ed_tru_lib on 8/03 at 2:55 pm

And it was to Abraham that Jehovah promised the Land of Israel ... which was then taken by force by Joshua because the God of the Children of Israel had given it to them so they “owned” it.

The seeds of this violence go back millenia ... and it all seems to rest on the concept that my God is stronger than your God ... of people with tribal mindsets, each tribe believing it was chosen by their God. (And strangely in this case, all by the same God.)

As little boys behind the barn we used to call it a pissing contest. What do you call it?

Regarding the playground: You see, the mother realized there might be more to the story ... the father did what most of us do, assume the fault of the other party. The story is a little bit of a Rorschach test or maybe a gestalt is a better description, because the “isolated in the neighborhood” concept sort of gives a certain outline.

I personally believe that much violence (however started) is in the instance of the specific act of violence, unjustified ... which is not to say that a strenuous defense is unjustified ... but too often it is the in the iconic form of the husband who after hitting his wife, says, “She had it coming.” or “She made me do it.”

As a supposedly Christian nation with the example of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. as one of our authentic heroes ... for us to be the sole vote on the UN Security Council blocking a call for an immediate ceasefire is morally indefensible ... in my judgement.

Regarding the holocaust: I am sorry that millions of innocent Jewish people lost their lives in the death camps of Germany located in Europe.

As the offspring of Swedish immigrants to the United States, and having learned the history of the Western Hemisphere, I am also sorry that millions of innocent native people lost there lives at the hands of Europeans.

Is their moral equivalence between those two events of genocide? I don’t know. I have never examined them with making that determination in mind.

What I do know, is that I respect Ghandi more and more every day. Because he knew ... as I believe ... that tit for tat violence never ends, it ... escalates ... and with nukes already in the Middle East and more on the way ... we have to figure out some way to stop the cycle of violence ... “It stops here!” ... which—according to what is attributed to a man named Jesus—is the responsibilty of the strong. “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.”

Who can be stronger here on earth than God’s children?

It is amazing how ignorant and belligerent some people are. It is amazing that Hezbollah has held out so long, I wish them luck.  Of course they can never be defeated unless you think the Jews can kill every Arab in the area.  To bad Israel doesn’t believe in peace.  In twenty years there will be no Israel thanks to Lukud and the neoCons. Maybe there will be no planet earth because of these insane warmakers.

Ah Hilding-I didn’t say Israel. I said Jews. Abraham, Isaac, and Israel (Jacob) predate Saul by more than a millenium. I had to assume you meant bully, since you were obviously comparing the other kid to hezbollah.
We’re in complete agreement though about how they should have learned from the old testament. Being ready AND ABLE to defend themselves just a few years sooner could have prevented the holocaust.

Why has this article, and the posts, been pulled by Truthdig from the homepage, when much older articles etc remain there. I so far can’t, and certainly don’t want to beleive, its censorship because of the content. Please don’t let Truthdig become as much of a “no-spin zone” as the other one. If the the truth conflicts with Truthdig’s essentially pro-terrorist views in the current conflict, its still the truth.

Comment #16261 by ed_tru_lib on 8/02 at 10:45 am

“Hilding-a good post and worthwhile point, but if the family has no one who will be willing come to help them, then or ever, because the bully’s family owns the only gas station in town? Maybe they just can’t wait that long, while their child keeps suffering, or is even beaten to death. By the way, Israel generally did pretty well ultimately in the old testament, which was young when the reality of Jews living in and ruling that part of the world was old.”

Ah, ed_tru_lib ... I didn’t say the other kid was a bully ...

And which Old Testament are you reading? Mine says the warrior King’s Saul and David carved out a kingdom that lasted through David’s son Solomon, then all hell broke lose finally ending in the diaspora.

And wasn’t there something about those Judges having a hard time dealing with the neighbors after Joshua killed men, women, children and animals at Jericho? Which then led to Israel needing a king ... and voila(sp) they got Saul to start what I just mentioned above?

It seems like that tribe has been having trouble with its neighbors for a long time. Think they would learn, wouldn’t you?

RupertMurdoch Newspaper List
List Of Newspapers
Australia:
• Herald Sun [6]

Media critics have taken to nick-naming it The Hun

Hilding-a good post and worthwhile point, but if the family has no one who will be willing come to help them, then or ever, because the bully’s family owns the only gas station in town? Maybe they just can’t wait that long, while their child keeps suffering, or is even beaten to death. By the way, Israel generally did pretty well ultimately in the old testament, which was young when the reality of Jews living in and ruling that part of the world was old.
Rick-altough I appreciate the obviously accurate comparison of hezbollah to rapists and thieves, a much more accurate metaphor would be if a sniper was shooting at innocents from a shopping mall, or anywhere, and obviously law enforcement had to make him stop. If he had surrounded himself with people, who were also innocents ( a highly dubious comparison in this case) then yes it would be better to negotiate, but what if he simply won’t stop firing, and obviously doesn’t care about the people he has surrounded himself with; indeed he is raving about their “freedom” even as he risks their lives by forcing the police to respond.
O and spinoza-once again we get a fair, intelligent, rational, and especially mature contribution from you. Its “the folks back home” like you that inspire hezbollah, and bin laden, as you once did the ayatollah and hitler.

A Story ...

The little boy, crying, comes up to his father on the side of the playground.

“Daaaaaaaad,” the boy wails.

His father reacts immediately and picks his son up and puts him on his lap. “What happened?” he asks.

“That boy over there.” The boy pauses and points to another boy playing in the middle of the playground. “He hit me.”

‘Well, go hit him back,” the father says, puts his son down and pushes him forward.

The wife and mother having overheard the exchange comes rushing forward, sweeps up their son and looks back at her husband. “Are your crazy? Do you want to start a riot in this neighborhood?”

“But our son can whip that kid’s butt.”

“And his big brother’s, and his friends? It’s just us and our son here.”

“But we’re stronger then they are.”

“For now, here, at this time and place. Let’s hope we’re smarter, too.”

There’s a book out titled, All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten, by Robert Fulghum. How can I get a copy to the Israeli Security Cabinet? I think they are still replaying Joshua at Jericho ... wich is soooooo OLD Testament.

I find it amusing that the right wing scum want the fighters to stand out in open fields and fight their enemies.  Tell you what, let the very well armed imperialists stand out in open fields and bomb themselves with 2000 lb bombs.

F**k Imperialists.

Where do you expect Hezbollah to place their weapons?  In the open so the Israeli jets can just pulverize them easier?  That doesn’t make any sense at all.  If Hezbollah had $5 billion a year to spend on F-15’s and F-16’s to protect their homes, then they would be using them, I’m sure.  But since they don’t have the US to supply them with weapons, they do with what they have.  How else do you fight a war?  Line up in firing lines like in the Civil War?  Why don’t you talk about how the Israelis are cowards for using their military superiority against an obviously inferior opponent, paying no mind to collateral damage.  This is like bombing a shopping mall in the US because you know that there has to be some rapists or burglars shopping in there at any given time.  It just doesn’t make sense.

A little Aussie perspective on that picture: You’re right Mark that the Herald-Sun of Melbourne is a repulsive Murdoch rag. I skim it for a laugh every now and then when I find copies left on a tram. (I would never pay money for it!) It follows whole-heartedly the Bush/Howard line about the glorious liberation of Iraq. That’s why the pics were published there.

It’s plausible that it was supplied by an Australian, not Israel. Oz has a lot of Lebanese immigrants. They were recruited after World War II for the manpower shortage, and more came during the civil war of the 70s. (They run some great ethnic restaurants and also supply some of Melbourne’s most notorious gangsters.) Many Lebanese-Ozzies were holidaying there when the latest war broke out. They’ve come back with photos and tales of terror. Not terror by Hizbollah, though, but of being terrorised by Israeli strikes.

Hizbollah’s terror arm is a nasty bunch of blokes, but it’s Israel that has given itself a public relations black eye with its tactics. Even in Australia, a country predisposed to cheer on Western forces, and with a substantial population of Holocaust survivors.

This is a pretty dubious photo. Some things to note. There is no way to date the photo given the information we have. When was it taken and where? Did a bunch of Hizbollah fighters just take time out to pose for this photo in the middle of the current war? Where did the photo come from? Who took it and how did the notoriously right wing Herald Sun (a Murdoch paper) get hold of it? Was it supplied by Israel? As others have noted, it’s an anti-aircraft gun, not a rocket launcher. It is also on the back of a truck. Is it being moved somewhere? If so, where is it being moved? Are these really members of Hizbollah or some other people? Was it taken in Lebanon at all?

Without this type of information, it is a bit rich to claim that this picture proves anything at all.

Could anything happen that just proves the empty, evil mindlessness of the terrorist-defenders of the lunatic left. Here’s a picture. The report says these residential areas weren’t attacked until hezbollah moved into them and started shooting. These people obviously don’t care about the civilians that would be hurt or killed when Israel defended itself by shooting back, or the destruction of their homes. They probably want more of their own people killed so the kind of individual who doesn’t care about the truth-most of those posting here so far-will shriek even louder about Israel’s actions to defend itself. Sorry pseudo-left freaks: Israel DOES care about its innocent civilians, of ALL races and religions, and will shoot BACK to defend them.

First, exactly right MaoTzu. I like what Robert Fisk, who usually cuts to the moral point, asks (paraphrasing): Because a gun battery is near an apartment building, the Israeli government can sentence to death civilians nearby? Is there an answer other than, “No way”? It’s well known the Lebanese military cannot dislodge Hezbollah, as it’s well known that Hezbollah is the result of the last Israeli “adventure” in Lebanon. Whether Hezbollah is cowardly in doing as they do is beside the aforementioned moral point. If Israel needs to go after Katyusha emplacements, they’ll have to do it the old-fashioned way, and not by (cowardly) means of massive air strikes that result in “collateral damage.” Of course, the Israeli government, in departing from the directives of its big brother, might simply address the underlying causes: accept culpability for past and ongoing crimes, especially those committed against Palestinians (Gaza is being creamed), though Lebanese as well, decide to engage seriously in peace talks, pull up colonies in the West Bank--all colonies, give back the Golan, agree to the right of return, accept that East Jerusalem will be the capital of a Palestinian state, then work with the Lebanese government, among others. Not least because such steps are also in Israel’s interest, if that is the government of Israel is genuinely concerned for security, and so long as we’re confining ourselves to talking more or less realpolitik. Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, White Protestant Supremacists, followers of Rabbi Kahane and/or Alan Dershowitz (just kidding re the last, though only a little), et al. might remain, but they’d lose support from all but the most fanatically crazed. We’ve one or two of our own “Ayatollahs” espousing various irrational belief systems and who require keeping in check, lest they get loose and either form militias or (s)elected to public office. (Hmm…it would appear we’re having some difficulty keeping them reigned in after all.) Like I said, long as we’re confining ourselves to realpolitik. Beyond realpolitik, anyone ready yet for a world without borders and without (invariably) corrupt centers of power, members of which are always ready to sacrifice children in cowardly fashion in pursuit of elitist material/irrational-religious interests--at home and most anywhere else apparently? Go to the polls and “just say ‘no,’” or don’t vote at all. Think about it--about what would happen if not one of us cast a vote. Then write your favorite media hack, who thinks us sheep, in order to explain why you didn’t vote yet again for “power corrupts.” Is it really true that we can’t lead ourselves and need liars who kill by proxy to lead us? If so, then never mind.

I read that story and saw the pictures of the Anti-aircraft guns and jummped to the comments section so I could yell with indignation about how those weren’t rockets they were defensive weapons and on and on, but you all had already done it. Bravo!

Let’s talk about hiding in civilian areas.

If a force is of the people they are naturally in civilian areas, it’s where thay live and work and play. That is the way of guerrilla warfare, but it is also the way of all countries. If you look at the US you’ll find military posts mixed in with residential neighborhoods and other “civilian” space everywhere. In San Diego there is a big debate about the military giving up a part of “their” land in the downtown area and turning it into mixed military, retail, condo, hotel, and or public park space. Across the street from this site which is now Naval Headquarters of the Pacific is a mixed space which is part military and part public. What about recruiting offices in malls? Is the United States using downtown San Diego and 13 year old mall rats as human shields?

I say we get a multinational force in here to force all US military installations to pull back at least two miles from all public and private property!

Seems it is only atheists such as myself who want to reason from the core values taught by Jesus. “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.” That turning the other cheek is sign of profound strength, and—therefore—that the stronger party to violence is responsible for breaking the cycle of violence.

Granting every bad thing that is said about Hezbollah—whether true or not—does not absolve the United States and Israel of their OBLIGATION to seek peace even more strenuously than they wage war.

A footnote: Democracy can only be based on people being able to reason with each other. It is not about who wins and loses in an election ... voting is like the packaging for a gift ... if the gift is not in package, would good is the packaging?

Bush and his toadies are so naive about bringing democracy to a region of tribalism that it is scarey, or they think we are so naive that we will believe their message, and that is even more frightening.

Gareth,

Thanks for taking the time to read my blog.

Jesus is often made to fit whatever mold people want.  He is often abused in this manner even 2 millenia after His life.  Few accept him as He is.  But it can be done if one will read instead of presume.

Certainly he was open to people, as is the liberalism of common sentiment.  He did not practice the dialectics that today’s Left & Libs promote. 

He also promoted respect for the authority of a government and religious system He knew was evil.  He never promoted overthrow of authority.

Your understanding of evangelicals is a bit lacking and appears to come from a set of assumptions that are clearly in error.

Remember, per Mr. Drobny and others, it’s the Left where a lot of anti-semitism lies.  Not with the “right” as it did 30 years ago.  It’s time for some serious house-cleaning on your side of the fence.  Check Sheldon Drobny’s blog in HuffingtonPost for more info on this.

(For those who may not know, Sheldon Drobny is a cofounder of Air America Radio.)

Collin

http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com

Well, gee; they sure don’t look like they’re inside of an apartment building, or on top of one, or underneath one, or even so close to one that Israel, with its vaunted “precision bombing” and “carefulness,” has no choice but to incinerate all the apartment buildings in the neighborhood with its “smart bombs”.

Note that these Hezbollah guys are also not inside of, on top of, or underneath a UN observation post, as far as I can tell.

In fact, these laudable freedom fighters standing against Israel’s murderous onslaught look to be quite precision-bomb-ably placed, with little risk to the local bridges, electrical power plants, Greek Orthodox churches, and milk factories that Israel’s “smart” bombs keep precisely and squarely hitting again and again.

Of course, I’m not saying the bombs aren’t really smart; more likely they’re hitting exactly what the Israelis intend to hit.

Gareth,

Thanks for taking the time to read my blog.

Jesus is often made to fit whatever mold people want.  He is so abused even 2 millenia after His life.  Certainly he was open to people, as is liberalism, but also promoted respect for the authority of a government and religious system He knew was evil.

He did not practice the dialectics that today’s Left & Libs promote.  He never promoted overthrow of authority.

Your understanding of evangelicals is a bit lacking and appears to come from a set of assumptions that are clearly in error.

Remember, per Mr. Drobny and others, it’s the Left where a lot of anti-semitism lies.  Not with the “right” as it did 30 years ago.  It’s time for some serious house-cleaning on your side of the fence.  Check Sheldon Drobny’s blog in HuffingtonPost for more info on this.

(For those who may not know, Sheldon Drobny is a cofounder of Air America Radio.)

Collin

http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com

Israel screwed this whole thing up by attacking Lebanon and Hezbollah over the kidnapping of a couple of their soldiers.  Now we have the deaths of many children whose blood was spilled thanx to Israel’s bombardment with weapons which we give them.  Therefore, it is our weaponry which killed all of these innocent children caught in the line of fire.  Israel’s actions are turning the entire Arab world against us.

True there are anti-aircraft weaponry in these neighborhoods.  But then one should ask as to WHY they are there?  Are there imaginary Israeli planes dropping bombs on these dense communities?

Or is it really happening?

I read the news today, oh boy… We all now know what happened in Qana.  I’d say those anti-aircraft guns are actually quite warranted.

The Red Cross has already attested to the fact that not a single rocket was fired from Qana.

Now who’s the terrorist/murderer?

To Collin, Comment #16075:

I took a quick read through your blog.

So what exactly is the difference between the Evangelical Pro-Israel Christians (like yourself) and the Militant Islamic groups who want to become martyrs? Don’t both of you welcome the end of the world?

By the way, Jesus was a “liberal.” You might watch how you use that word.

Anti-aircraft weapons don’t launch rockets--they shoot down planes. That would make them a defensive weapon, which I would have to say actually bolsters the Hezbollah/Lebanese position. I’m not saying this in defense of Hezbollah, but in defense of common sense. I will note, though, that I can scarcely say the “using residential areas” argument holds much water when Lebanese civilian casualties have gone far beyond the wildest aims of Hezbollah and their rockets after only twenty-one days. Are Israeli civilians worth more than Lebanese civilians? (Are US civilians worth more than Iraqi civilians?)

I am with you “gudgup”

What Newlin said.

There’s plenty to blame both Hezbollah and Israel for in the current affair, but placement of AA defenses isn’t on the list.

I don’t think putting anti aircrat guns in a city is proof of some horrible behavior. I believe we had anti aircraft guns in NY and LA during WWII and in this area there is not a lot of open fields! The more I think about it the more stupid this article is. I mean, you place anti aircraft guns where there will be attack jets killing people, and Israel shows great love in their ability to kill children and civilains as often as ‘army men’. Didn’t the USA kill a few civilians when they dropped nukes on Japan? Or is that morally OK because the USA did it?

The spin that the story “damns” Hezbollah is silly:  it is an ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUN, not a rocket.  They are short range and are placed near areas you wish to protect.  Granted that it’s pretty feeble, it demonstrates Hezbollah’s attempt to PROTECT civilians - that’s why they allowed the photo.

The only reason the Aussie paper can play it that way is that they’ve never been bombed - a British or French paper wouldn’t dare:  a few of them remember where anti-aircraft guns were during WWII.

So is the Salon.com article “The Hiding Among Civilians Myth,” by Mitch Prothero false? Or is the Australian report a product of disinformation tactics?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah /index_np.html

About time.
Keep it up.

Collin

http://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com