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Martin Jacques
Martin Jacques is the author of "When China Rules the World: the Rise of the Middle Kingdom and the End of the Western World." He is a visiting senior fellow at the London School of Economics, IDEAS, a centre for the study of international affairs, diplomacy and grand strategy, and a visiting...




 



 
 

When China Rules the World

(Page 4)

PART 4: The Issue of Individualism

Robert Scheer: Hi, I’m Robert Scheer, the editor of Truthdig.com. And we have a pretty big commitment to books. We think books are very much a part of the future; we have a big book section. And I’m here to interview Martin Jacques, who has written a very provocative book, “When China Rules the World”; the subtitle is “The End of the Western World and the Birth of a New Global Order.” And this is now the fourth segment [of the interview]; you can just start here, but I would recommend you go back to the first one, because it’s a continuing discussion on a complex subject. And it has to be explored at some lengths. Of course, the best way to begin exploring it is to buy this book, but in the interim maybe we can gain your interest with this discussion.

So where we left it off in the third segment is whether there is not an inherent conflict between the demands, the curiosity, of an individual who has been educated, is aware of all the other models in the world, other than what the particular dynasty was putting up during the 2,000 years of Chinese history that you say has such a hold on the imagination. So there’s a new imagination; they know how [people] live in England and the United States and so forth. And would that not be in conflict with a notion of the state that has 2,000 years of history behind it, that the state is paternalistic, is involved intimately with you? And is there not some inherent conflict, and if not, how are they managing this?

Martin Jacques: Well, change always involves conflict, because old institutions or existing institutions need to be reformed in order to take account of certain sorts of changes, and so on. I think that any society that cannot do that gets stuck. And the question is, how does the reform take place? Does it take place in some sort of gravity-free zone which has no relationship to the past, or does it actually, the change, take place within the context of the traditions and customs, and so on, of a society? Now, I think—and certainly this is true in China—that political change in China will be congruent with the traditions and the past, and so on, of the society. So the state won’t suddenly become like the American state, because the American state grew up in an entirely different society, almost the opposite kind of society to the Chinese experience. So, of course, this goes without saying in a country like China: when it’s moving at 10 percent a year, this is extraordinary transformation in people’s lives, in every aspect of their lives, including their ideas. This is change on a scale we don’t know about in the West. And the Chinese are now about to be the largest number of Internet users in the world. It’s not that the Chinese are closed off from the rest of the world. This is not like the Soviet Union, which was closed off from the rest of the world. China is open to the rest of the world, just like it’s the world’s, now, biggest exporter. It’s also the people, young people and so on, that are very open to the ideas of the world, very familiar with them, learning English like crazy, and so on. So this is a fluid society in rapid process of movement. You’ve only got to go to China; every time I go back, there’s a vast new university, extension to this … everything’s changing with extraordinary speed.

Scheer: But how do they manage it? I still believe in the Bill of Rights. I know you got along quite well in England without them. But it seems to me some notion of the territory of the individual—and here I’m being parochial, I know, but still I feel it.

Jacques: You said it. (Laughs)

Scheer: I don’t mind saying it; my parents came from … my mother came from Lithuania and my father came from Germany, and they came because this society had a notion of the protection of the individual, and the inalienable rights of the individual. I’m not embarrassed by that. And so I am perplexed: How do you develop a new order, a new global order, in which China will be very influential without having that respect for the individual as an island of their own making?

Jacques: I don’t think it’s fair to say that the Chinese have no respect for the individual. I don’t think that that’s right. It’s not true that respect for the individual comes in only one shape and form, which is the American form. America is a very exceptionalist society, in a way, because it had no pre-existing feudalism or anything like this. It started with the arrival of European settlers; it brought with them the assumptions of European society, which was at that phase already a post-, essentially, capitalist society. So the United States has no history in that sense. This is unlike every other country in the world, apart from Australia, Canada and New Zealand. This was the Western, the European transplant. Now, every other society grows up with a history. Europe is like China in this context. So various forms of protection of rights of individuals and so on have grown up in each society. This is certainly true in Chinese society. There’s a very strong stress in Confucian thinking on the rights of the individual, on the responsibility of government to respect people’s needs, and so on. This is one of the reasons why the market developed very early in China. Adam Smith, in the late 18th century, commented that the market was much more developed in China than it was in northwest Europe. And one of the reasons for this was the respect shown by Confucian values for the individual, and the importance of the individual. So it’s not true that the individual is completely and utterly dwarfed by the state. The Chinese are quite actually, in many ways, quite an individualistic, entrepreneurial people.

Scheer: You get different pictures of China. Some people say they don’t have a strong central government, that actually it’s spread out and these people out in the provinces make decisions and decide everything, that’s why there’s so much corruption, and Beijing can’t really control, and that’s why Shanghai spun off on its own, and so forth. Is that compatible with your view of the importance of the state? Is the state different, is it spread out?

Jacques: Well, I think you make a really important point, which is that China is a huge country, and a very diverse country, and a very complex country. And it would be impossible to run it from Beijing. Beijing is responsible for quite a small minority of the tax take and government expenditure, which is done predominantly in the provinces and local government. So the way the thing works is complicated. Beijing certainly enjoys a lot of authority, but often it’s feigned compliance by the provinces, is the way it works.

Scheer: So it is a decentralized model.

Jacques: Oh, yeah. It’s much more decentralized than the Western view, much more decentralized.

Scheer: And finally, it’s often said that this gap between the rural and the urban, between the poor and the new middle class, and so forth, will break the system—that this is not something that can be resolved. And this sort of goes back to the old idea of impotence in dealing with population. I remember when I was a student in the Center for Chinese Studies at Berkeley, China had a population of 400 million. It now has a population of, what … 1.3 billion. And yet they’re more prosperous, even in the rural areas, than they were then. But we keep hearing these projections that the thing has got to explode, that there are these hundreds of millions, if not still a majority, maybe a majority of the people who have not benefited or are not benefiting enough, and they can’t be contained. Is this your view?

Jacques: No, it’s not my view at the moment. I mean, we’ll see what happens in the future. But when your economy is growing like China has over the last 30 years, the vast majority, if not the whole population, has benefited hugely, and hence the huge reductions in the numbers of the poor. The problem is that once they, as it were, let the thing go, then some areas grew much quicker than others. And within the richer areas, disparities of wealth between different groups became much more marked. Now, I think this is a serious problem in China. I do think it’s a serious problem. It’s becoming very unequal. Now, some of this is structural; it’s very difficult to contain, but other aspects of it are unstructured, and I think this is a new pressure, a new tension on China. And it could lead to serious problems; it could do, it’s not impossible. We’ll just have to see. And this also, by the way, to underline this point, cuts against both Confucian and communist values, both of which held equity to be of serious importance.

Scheer: Thank you, Martin Jacques. The book is “When China Rules the World: The End of the Western World and the Birth of a New Global Order.”

Jacques: Thank you, Bob.

Scheer: Read it and weep, or think, or whatever you want.

Continued: Militarism Not on the Horizon
Dig last updated on Dec. 17, 2009


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By mimi67, April 1, 2012 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

China: A sleeping Giant. It would take more than a decade before this giant would wake up and rule the world. But if this happens, China would truly influence the world not only with its economy but as well as other aspects including culture, intellectually, architecture and even military.
peak potentials training

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By Renova, January 19, 2012 at 2:14 am Link to this comment

It is very difficult to predict how this turn outs. The next two years are crucial according to me. If they pass off with relative stability in the worldwide markets, then China has potential of being the last man standing. The problem is that China is completely dependant on foreign markets to maintain its economy and any problem there will have a cascading effect on its economy as well.

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By me, February 27, 2011 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Learn the language ( mandarin ), learn taoism.
I live in Asia, I’m a 55 year old white-guy.
I left the USA because its a sewer without culture. Asian people take care of their parents, everyone in the USA is a parasite.
Long ago China built a wall to keep out the human-detritus, so I not fear that they want to rule the world. It’s the USA that wants to the rule world, please don’t think that everyone is ‘evil’. Just because your part of the evil empire. Open your eyes, learn to speak chinese, and travel in China. You’ll see that there is more freedom, and love, and its safer than anything you’ll ever see in the USA. The USA is going down, its a an evil dog-eat-dog capitalist nation of greedy killers and now the world will contain the USA as a prison, and keep its people in the USA to kill one another. So that the rest of the world may live. Fear not that China wishes to control the USA, to flush the toilet might be a more apt description, but nobody needs or wants to control feces.

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By r2d6.51, January 3, 2011 at 5:01 am Link to this comment

Globalization defined as the exportation of “Capitalism” born out of the Feudal era in Western Europe during the enlightenment gave the United States hegemony because we stood at the top of the garbage heap after WWII, having controlled the bank on the Monopoly board of capitalism ever since..
That money made off the backs of surplus labor primarily in the United States and third world countries during the second half of the 20th century was thus invested in Asia to again turn their workforce into slaves for the corporate capitalist class and a built in design flaw of capitalism that demands money continue to be invested in surplus labor for profit to fuel economic growth at the expense of inherent inequality and thus class struggle has already begun in China evidenced by recent strikes.
While Capitalism has indeed raised the standard of living for the Asian co-prosperity sphere of influence it has done so as a result of the same exploitation of labor and cultivating them into cookie cut little consumers of serving the interests of self, to serve the same conceptual framework of human activity that governs every capitalist society designed to make the capitalist class rich while the labor class is in a perpetual state of struggle to maintain a dignified standard of living.
Let’s hope their workforce does not end up like ours did with people having to work 3 and 4 jobs now just to make ends meet.
Capitalism has no conscience as it operates by default on a mode designed to exploit resources both human and non in order to make more money from money invested while destroying the planet in the process. The ultimate question is when a showdown will begin where humanity will wake up demanding a stop to this insanity of inequality and the destruction of the planets biosphere.
While there are a number of important factors that will influence who sits at the head of the table, given we still have the world’s most potent killing machines on the planet(full spectrum dominance) and have the lion’s share of the worlds wealth at our finger tips,  that wealth will not be surrendered without a fight.
Just remember how all that wealth was made including using our military around the globe since the birth of this nation and what we have done to exploit labor surplus leaving the American workforce to now work 3 and 4 jobs to make ends meet at a time when on average we are only graduating 46% of our students from high school, and given the compound average rate of capital investment at 3% , simply look around at the world today in what capitalism has created for humanity and imagine what that 3% of continued capital global investment will mean to be maintained, especially in the context of the burgeoning population of Asia now wanting to live essentially the life of Riley as we have with a fast food joint on every corner and everyone owning their own car, and the demand against natural resources coupled with how that ultimately translates to the health of our biosphere to maintain any kind of a healthy environment to promote life on this planet.
The picture does not look positive without taking a strong stand from all of humanity demanding that global capitalism be at the very least examined for its viability for the future, given the aforementioned realities, and the internal contradictions capitalism incurs as it relates to the social economic political and environmental challenges that humanity will face given the mass capital by-product that Asia will have in making a much larger footprint on the planets viability to maintain the human species.

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Peter Knopfler's avatar

By Peter Knopfler, December 21, 2010 at 10:51 pm Link to this comment

I forgot to mention To understand the Chinese Mind
Please read The Importance of Living, philosophy and
psychology and art wrapped together in a specific
weave, Lin Yutang is the best reflection by a chinese
written in queens english 1937, a treat to read and
then you too will know Chinese society and you will
understand what they lost in order to be communist
china, they gave up everything. China is communist and
only thinks of itself, to help others is a sign of
weakness. North Korea is the perfect example of
communist chinese model taken to the extreme.

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Peter Knopfler's avatar

By Peter Knopfler, December 21, 2010 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment

I remember products from Communist China labeled the
peoples republic of China, little before that, it was
always communist china. However we needed to make you
feel good not uncomfortable about buying communist
chinese stuff. We softened the blow and we only use
china, and dropped, the communist, so wal-mart wouldn´t
be more accurately called the communist chinese depot.
You buy you vote, wake up to communist china is now the
american dream.Ha Ha back in the USSR!

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D.R. Zing's avatar

By D.R. Zing, November 1, 2010 at 2:15 am Link to this comment

Martin,
Have been working on the book for a few months now.  Slow reader and all that.  Inspiring: 

I am American, I am American
I am the steaming blood of the Yellow Stone
I am spawn of the greatest empire in the world
Peru is my ancestral plague
My race is like The Great Divide
We flow down the Rocky Genocide Slope
We flow across Mississippi Democracy
For we have sown exquisite customs
Divided nation! Divided nation!

D.R. Zing, 10-31-2010, I Am American (for Wen Yiduo, “I am Chinese”)

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By rsaxon, September 19, 2010 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have read some of this dig (not all). what Jacques has suggested is true that China is slowly taking over. That is what drives an imperialistic contry is to expand the empire. N.A.F.T.A has helped this expansion into the United States, to the point now that there is no textile factories in the U.S., all have been bought out by Chinese companies and torn down. they have taken over the tool trade, with exception of snap on tools. they and Japan have already taken most of the major factorys out of the US and have moved them to their homelands, leaving our economy in a mess. And the small companies left had to outsource professional work to compete, and non professional work has been through temp services whareas the company dosn’t have to obligate to the worker therefore producing a substandard product. Between the NAFTA act, EPA, and the politicians, Americans need not worry about the immigration issue but rather learn an asian language.

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By acacac11, June 20, 2010 at 1:32 am Link to this comment

Loved this fantastic DIG; thanks to Martin Jacques and Robert Sheer for this.

One point, though, about democracy versus capitalism. Brilliant words from the great political philosopher John Ralston Saul:

“The Chinese, for example, looked into formal logic well before we became obsessed with it and found it less important than other things. They delved into the market economy when we were still in the Dark Ages, and therefore they do not associate it in any way with the democratic ideology. Western confusion over this led us foolishly to confuse economic liberalism in China in the 1980s with a desire for political liberalism.”

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By gerald4, March 22, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Dear ha ha Yankee dog!:

The US government does not really borrow US dollars from US banks to pay for its expenses. The US congress passes laws that authorize Federal Reserve Board (via Chairman Ben Bernanke) to buy some paper and then print a bunch of new interest bearing paper currency instruments (US Bonds) in varying amounts with the promise of US government repaying these loans in US dollars at the future dates specified (when they become due). The FED then auctions off these freshly printed US Bonds, or other Securities at US Federal Reserve Bank public auctions (AT DISCOUNTS LESS THAN FACE VALUE AND/OR PRESENT WORTH) to mostly foreign manufacturers, foreign banks and foreign individuals in China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, and other industrialized countries in return for the US dollars that these foreigners earned by making consumer goods for US citizens. The US government then spends these US dollars, plus US dollars collected by taxation, on various government expenses.

Foreigners continue purchase these freshly printed paper US Bonds (at a discount from face value) ONLY because these US bonds can be redeemed by purchasing title to privately owned land, hotels, farms, businesses, casinos and other wealth and assets that were created by previous generations of US citizens and located in the USA, before the de-industrialization of the USA, and instead of redeeming US currency with Gold as other foreign nations do.

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By Zhu Bajie, March 17, 2010 at 2:45 am Link to this comment

Americans can actually reform their own country, stop being so racist and plutocratic, stop having new wars here, there, everywhere.  They cannot change other countries, no matter how many Iraqis or Afghans or Vietnamese they kill.  I’m sure too many of my fellow Americans are eager for a new Cold War with China, which would probably do great harm to the Tibetans etc. they will say they want to help.

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By Zhu Bajie, March 17, 2010 at 2:01 am Link to this comment

I think he over-emphasizes the difference between China and Western countries about tolerance for cultural difference vs. demand for cultural uniformity. “Americanization” of emigrants (and conquered Mexicans, Indians, etc.) had been pretty strong.  A major reason for our current wars in the Middle East is that lots of Americans can’t tolerate women’s fashions in Iraq or Afghanistan!  Europeans are no better. Think of how many smaller languages (Breton, Irish) have been eliminated in the last 150 years or so.  Demanding uniformity is big in Western history.

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By ha ha Yankee dog!, March 14, 2010 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

gerald4,  Very cool comments. I’m not sure about your take on Chinese possession of US Treasury Bonds though. Even though current bond auctions offer paper paying maybe 2%, most held by China, Japan and so on, were bought when interest was in the range of 4-8% per annum. The interest we are paying the Communist horde is something like this:  Let’s use $1.5 trillion as the base of China’s US bond holdings. At an average of 5%/yr,  we owe and pay China $280-Million EVERY DAY in interest alone. Of course, they are still entitled to cash-in those bonds as they mature and get back their original investment. As far as acquiring US dollars with their earnings, I don’t think this is the case. It’s my understanding that they are taking the Ron Paul approach and stockpiling high-grade gold.  If my math above is wrong, feel free to correct me.

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By epppie, March 6, 2010 at 1:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s just so insane and ludicrous that as American society continues to crumble,
as the disparities in wealth skyrocket, as the numbers in prison skyrocket, as
civil rights are dissolved by the federal government, as the right to privacy is
destroyed by increasingly authoritarian regime after increasingly authoritarian
regime, as Corporate Power increasingly destroys the last vestiges of
democracy, and as aggressive war and torture and extrajudicial killing and
economic bullying becomes the beginning and end of US foreign relations -
with all this you continue to somehow hold the US up as the gold standard for
rights, righteousness, freedom, etc, etc, in a conversation about China? 

You pundits are sucking so much koolaid your brains are pickled in it.  You
can’t see beyond the ultra-narrow prejudices of your camouflaged elite brand
of jingoism.  Rather than save America by raising your voice in honest criticism,
you’d rather just assume it still is (as if it ever was) the Camelot you were
taught about in Civics class.  That’s what it should be, but we’ve never been so
far from actually being there.

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By gerald4, March 5, 2010 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

Chairman Mao supposedly said “Power comes out of the barrel of a gun”.

I believe that he was only partially correct because a strong economy is also necessary to arm, feed, support, house, pay and otherwise maintain a strong military force.

The soldiers need to be happy, or they might overthrow whatever government might be in power at that particular time.

China now has the strong economy and is rapidly building their military technology and military might that will surpass the military capability of the USA in the very near future.

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By ocjim, March 4, 2010 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

For decades the Chinese have eaten our lunch. I’m sure that they have gotten several belly laughs about the arrogance of our business leaders and their willingness to sell trade secrets for personal or short-term profit.
        For the Chinese leaders, it is not personal greed. It is more like intellectual entitlement over the compromised and the effete.
        One by one, American business leaders have come to strike what have progressively become Faustian bargains with top Asian leaders. But the Chinese, especially, with their lures of money, deception, and even lurid sexual favors, have provided American business representatives short-term profits and their own creature comforts.

        You might say it began with the Jeep division leaders of American Motors Corporation (AMC) which was one of the first to set up a factory in China. After 3 frustrating years of being constantly rebuffed by Chinese leaders in their attempts to implement American business methods, in 1986, AMC leaders cut themselves loose from Western values and adopted Chinese ways.

        In return for turning a reasonable profit, AMC became a voice for the Chinese plan. It became an agent for the Chinese leadership’s one-child policy, providing incentives for Chinese women employees to have abortions. It sang the praises of China to other American business leaders and American political leaders, and became a selling point for what-appeared-to-be joint efforts. The company is now 50% owned by China.

        American business had something entirely different in mind.

        Arrogant, self-deluded and narcissistic, we chose to believe that a rich and growing China would become an Asian model of American market capitalism, mimicking us in this cycle: more wealth would bring more freedom and more freedom more wealth.

        Instead many of our company leaders served as propaganda ministers for the Chinese way, among them Hank Greenburg of AIG and Rupert Murdoch, owner of Fox News. To that end, Congress was exhorted by compromised American businesses to grant a free-trade status to China by inviting them to membership in the World Trade Organization (WTO) in the mid-1990s.

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By Squeeky, March 3, 2010 at 3:16 am Link to this comment

I do not think the internet compels us to find common purpose and does not compel us to action. If anything, I would submit that the internet is fractitous(Take a look at the Tea Party Movement..TPM). The TPM know they are mad as hell and once they figure out what that is, I’m sure they will be the first to know.

Without Common Purpose, Singular Message, and Unifying action, words on a computer splashed across a nation will bar us from achieving those goals.

Start small and grow from there. Good old pavement pounding

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By gerald4, March 2, 2010 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment

Does anybody believe that the US government will be able to continuously borrow enough of the US dollars (that US citizens paid foreigners to make our imported US consumer goods) back from China, India, Pakistan, Brazil and the other foreign industrial nations to pay US medical doctors, nurses, hospitals, clinics, laboratories and medical technicians with these borrowed US dollars to provide FREE MEDICAL CARE FOR ALL US CITIZENS AND MAYBE FOR ALL OF THE ILLEGAL ALIENS ALSO, and also for job stimulation spending to temporarily pay US citizens for digging holes today and then re-filling the same holes tomorrow, pork barrel projects, free educations, subsidized housing, humanities, art, music, writing poems, all sorts of make-work schemes, entertainment, wars, social entitlements, welfare, healthcare, environmental clean-ups, and/or similar things that does not contribute positively to our foreign trade balance.?

I hope that our US government does not make Communist China and/or the other industrialized nations mad, because they might not loan our US government any more US dollars to pay for our free health care and or other US government expenses.

But wait a minute, these industrialized nations do not loan the US dollars that US citizens paid for the imported products that US citizens consumed back to the US government, these industrialized nations buy freshly printed paper US bonds at Federal Reserve Auctions (at a discounts less than face value and/or present worth) in return for the US dollars that they earned buy making and selling consumer goods to US citizens.

But wait another minute, these freshly printed paper US Bonds and other security instruments that the US government printed on fresh paper and then sold to people in industrialized nations HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO VALUE, except that they are redeemable for title to privately owned businesses, factories, casinos, hotels, farms, land, ports, breweries, refineries, forests, ports, breweries, refineries, and other privately owned assets located in the USA that were created by previous US generations instead of Gold from Ft. Knox. The US Government only has $11B of gold left in reserve at Ft. Knox according to the AP Dec. 21, 2009, 3:44PM.

After the industrial foreign entities have redeemed their freshly printed paper US Bonds for title to everything of value in the USA, these foreign industrial entities will not buy any more of these freshly printed paper US Bonds, or they will only pay a fraction of a penny on the dollar for these freshly printed paper US Bonds. This will cause the US dollar to lose all of its purchasing power, and then your life savings in US dollars might only last you a few weeks!

If the USA could re-industrialize, make the things that we consume, export some of the things that we manufacture and then the USA would not have to borrow US Dollars back from the industrialized nations for US government expenses, but re-accumulate the gold reserves in the US treasury at Ft. Knox and have the resources to expand Government to provide Healthcare Benefits, Unemployment Benefits, and other benefits with the income taxes provides by fuller employment with the industrial manufacturing jobs that the USA would re-create. We will very soon have no technology base available even if the USA decided to re-industrialize to reduce or eliminate unemployment.

Over the past few decades, both political parties of the US government has decided to destroy our manufacturing capability with “Free Trade” legislation and also destroy the US manufacturing capability and the database of technically oriented people that won WWII and created the economic power that the USA enjoyed for a few decades after WWII.

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By Charlie Freak, March 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

I don’t think so, squeaky, because you need a good
education system to develop the factories to make those
things. These days US schools are firing ranges.

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By Squeeky, March 1, 2010 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Soon, poorly made and reasonably priced products sold in China will carry labels that say “Made in the USA.”

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By johannes, February 21, 2010 at 3:14 am Link to this comment

To ikkalicrates,

The USA is not on his end of evolution, maby one day Karl Marx will break tru.

But the satanic forces are very strong and mean.

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By Ikallicrates, February 20, 2010 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jacques says ‘Of course China will not rule the world(,) any more than the United States has ruled the world for the last 60 years . . . (b)ut I think China will, in time, become the most powerful and influential country in the world, and that’s what I mean by ruling the world’. What is the difference between ruling the world and being ‘the most powerful and influential country in the world’? If Jacques believes there is a difference, why did he name his book ‘When China Rules the World’?

When China rules the world, how will it differ from our rule?

China used to assume the Far East was its natural sphere of influence, just as the United States used to assume its Manifest Destiny was to rule all the Americas, north and south. Sometimes they annexed another country’s territory, and ruled it directly – as China did northern Vietnam and the USA did northern Mexico – but more often they were content to rule indirectly, by imposing their ‘superior’ civilization on their neighbors. It seems unlikely that China’s rule will differ from ours politically, so how will it differ culturally?

Probably not much. As Jacques says, ‘The Chinese are quite actually, in many ways, quite an individualistic, entrepreneurial people’. Their current success in the global marketplace proves that.     

China differs from the USA primarily in being a highly homogeneous society; over 90% of Chinese are ethnic Han. All countries strive for racial homogeneity - the USA is no exception - but few have achieved this degree of homogeneity without ‘racial cleansing’. I hope the Chinese will set us Lao Wai an example by overcoming their contempt for their racial inferiors, as the Japanese did, without resorting to violence, as we Americans have done.

The Chinese are famous among westerners for their deference to authority, but they defer only to authority which they consider legitimate. The San Guo Yan Yi, one of the ‘four great classics’ of China, begins with the rebellion that broke out when the people decided their emperor had lost the Mandate of Heaven. China’s current leadership know that they, too, will rule only so long as the country prospers and the people are content. We Americans, on the other hand, are disgusted with both Republicans and Democrats, who let this country spiral into depression while they quarrel, yet we dare not consider a socialist alternative to their corrupt kleptocracy.

I’ll conclude with a few words to fattkidd:

You quoted Marx as saying: ‘‘Capitalism only succeeds if there is a widespread sharing of prosperity’. This much is true, but Marx’s next words are not true: ‘If/When the heads of (a) capitalist system cease to share the wealth with those who actually produce the wealth of the country, those workers will demand socialism.’ Americans have been so brainwashed to fear socialism that they would rather have fascism.

But the question of which form of government is more efficient, ours or China’s, doesn’t really matter. As ofersince72 points out, neither of us is seriously addressing the problem of global warming.  That’s why James Lovelock predicts that, in a few years, our ‘civilization’ will collapse and we’ll all be living in caves.

Gong Hay Fat Choy.

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By Bobadi, February 20, 2010 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

You know, I really don’t see much difference:
between the tyranny of China due to a people who don’t care to be involved in their own governing, and the tyranny of U.S. polyarchy (which saps the few percent of us who even attempt to care about our own governing, into thinking our votes mean anything of substance.)

Either one is tyranny of the few over the many, however only one of them seems to be producing substance for its people, while the other one is helping to do this by withdrawing substance from its people and indebting them and their children into slaving poverty.

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By johannes, February 20, 2010 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

To Charlie Freak,

I want to make an rectification, on the saying the Chinees girls are Ugly, this is not tru.

When I visited Shanghai, I have seen and known some beautiful Chinees girls and young woman.

This internet is to easy to make your self ugly by writing the wrong things.

Salutation Johannes.

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By johannes, February 20, 2010 at 4:17 am Link to this comment

To Charlie Freak,

I am saying ” slave workers ” and not slave trade,

It is sensless to come in this discusion with histories about the slave trade, the biggest was and still is in North Afric, and before that from north Europe to the south, never from China, they where to ugly.

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By Bubba, February 20, 2010 at 3:39 am Link to this comment

Where’s the podcast, please?

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By Charlie Freak, February 20, 2010 at 3:23 am Link to this comment

I can’t resist that one, Johannes. There has never been
any slave trade in China, however…

“Twelve million Africans were shipped to the Americas
from the 16th to the 19th centuries. Of these, an
estimated 645,000 were brought to what is now the
United States. The largest number were shipped to
Brazil (see slavery in Brazil). The slave population in
the United States had grown to four million by the 1860
Census” (copied from Wikepedia)

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By johannes, February 20, 2010 at 3:15 am Link to this comment

Dear China lovers.

The greatness of China is not build on intelect, but on the blood, swet, and vale of tears from the slave workers.

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By Charlie Freak, February 20, 2010 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

Well, Kukai, I have no idea whether China will rule
the world. But I will say that I lived in the US for
5 years (Washington DC) and I was frankly amazed that
it ruled the world. It seemed to me like a Third
World country with a bit of icing on the top. I
always used to laugh at people who say the Apollo
moon landings never happened, but after living there
I confess I too am a doubter. I just can’t imagine
how such patently ignorant and intellectually lazy
people could do that sort of thing 40 years ago. I’m
fairly certain they cann’t do it ever again, but I am
sure that China will land a Taikonaut there very
soon…

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By kukai, February 19, 2010 at 11:39 pm Link to this comment

Do I enjoy my life in China?  Yes, I do.  Overall, I’m happier here than I would be in America.  My comments below have to do with whether or not China is capable of attaining “greatness” or “ruling the world.”  Civilizations come and civilizations go.  I feel that the odds of China rising to the top is as likely as Anchorage becoming the next capital of the United States.

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By Charlie Freak, February 19, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

Yes, of course there is suppression of information,
Bobadi. There is in every country. Sometimes it is
justified - personal privacy, national security etc.
Sometimes not. With the internet, it’s very difficult
these days, though - even in China. You’d be
surprised what “secrets” ordinary Chinese people
know. They are not stupid, you know.

I am not saying China is perfect - we always seem to
get into this sort of tit for tat when we discuss
China. And remember, this discussion was about
individual Chinese people, not their government. As
you know fine well, they have very little say in what
their government does. America, UK, Australia etc.,
on the other hand, are democracies, and the people
are directly responsible for their war-mongering.

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By Charlie Freak, February 19, 2010 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

Yes, of course there is suppression of information,
Bobadi. There is in every country. Sometimes it is
justified - personal privacy, national security etc.
Sometimes not. With the internet, it’s very difficult
these days, though - even in China. You’d be
surprised what “secrets” ordinary Chinese people
know. They are not stupid, you know.

I am not saying China is perfect - we always seem to
get into this sort of tit for tat when we discuss
China. And remember, this discussion was about
individual Chinese people, not their government. As
you know fine well, they have very little say in what
their government does. America, UK, Australia etc.,
on the other hand, are democracies, and the people
are directly responsible.

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By Bobadi, February 19, 2010 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

Charlie Freak, do you believe that there is suppression of information in China?
Do you think this is necessary; if you think this is true, does the end justify the means?

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By johannes, February 19, 2010 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

To Charlie Freak,


2 months ago I was in India, in the north on the old Tibet frontier, go their an ask the people about this intelligent Chinees butchers.

Tibet was a free country, people could do the whole day long wath they liked, if this is praying so be it.

You know where this will stop, with an big war, maby an atomic war, but not to day or to soon, but in about 10 years will be the moment.

China dus the same thing as the USA, imperium building, and monopolisch creating, they use lots of countrys like prostitute here is the money, go on your back and we take all, its an other way, but on the end its the same.

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By kukai, February 19, 2010 at 5:00 am Link to this comment

To Charlie Freak, I could not agree with you more.  The atrocities by the United States of America which you cited are totally unconscionable and reprehensible.

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By Charlie Freak, February 19, 2010 at 4:45 am Link to this comment

Oh, I can’t resist that one Kukai! I personally would
much rather my fellow man urinated in the street than
invaded countries like Vietnam and Iraq, destroyed
local communities with multinational business, and
proselytized daft evangelical religions all over the
planet. Give me my life-affirming, enthusiastic,
secular Chinese friends any day!

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By kukai, February 19, 2010 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

To johannes and Charlie Freak, the Tibetans have got to be the holiest people on earth.  In my mind, they are totally congruent with their higher self.

To Charlie Freak, I don’t mean to denegrate an entire people.  Yes, there are intelligent Chinese, just as there are stupid Americans.  Indeed, there are Chinese soaking in alcohol tonight, just as there are Americans.  We dare not forget the highest truth—we are one.  But when I see taxis driving on the wrong side of the street and litter everywhere, not to mention defecating and urinating in public, I have a hard time convincing myself that they have a “brain power advantage.”

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By Charlie Freak, February 19, 2010 at 3:43 am Link to this comment

Johannes, I go to the countryside a lot - it is a very
happy place these days, believe me. I haven’t been to
Tibet since 1986 (I assume you’ve been there recently).
When I was there it was obviously very backward and
people seemed to spend most of their time praying (I
can post the pictures I took if you like). I don’t know
for sure, but I suspect life is much improved for the
average person, as it is all over China. Not perfect,
of course, but much better than in the feudal,
theocratic days of “His Holiness” the Dalai Lama.

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By johannes, February 19, 2010 at 3:29 am Link to this comment

To Freak,

Go and look in to the country, go and look where the Chinees regiem, is doing an slow genocide on the Tibetan, and other people who are standing in their way.

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By Charlie Freak, February 19, 2010 at 2:09 am Link to this comment

OK Kukai - I respect your opinion, but I have totally
the opposite impression. I live in China too. I never
cease to be amazed by the intelligence, creativity and
good manners of my Chinese friends. It’s the reason I
prefer to live here rather than in Australia (or US or
UK or whatever) where it seems to me the people are
increasingly stupid and obtuse (to use your words) and
increasingly soaked in alcohol. I just wish I could
speak Putonghua half as good as even the most lowly
Chinese can speak English. Time for some humility and
respect, I’d say… or why don’t you piss off home?

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By kukai, February 19, 2010 at 1:36 am Link to this comment

To “G"utless “W"itless Hitler, I agree with your assessment of the good ol’ USA.  Sad, isn’t it?  However, China’s standard of living will never rise to the point where the best and brightest minds in the world come here to live.  I consider myself an intelligent American, a cut above the rest.  And I’ve lived in China for six years.  But the Chinese are seriously shackled to the past.  This place has got to be the stupidest place on earth; the Chinese are as obtuse a people as they come.

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By Ashino W. Sushanti, February 11, 2010 at 7:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You know my dear Americans it won’t get any worse than at the moment while the USA still believes this world belongs to it, ha!! Please, just read those following lines written by an foreigner living & teaching in that “land of the free”...

Argentine-born Natalia lives in Orlando, Florida, where she teaches at the university level. As an expat, she combines the best of both Argentine and American cultures in her daily life. She candidly shares her opinions on moving to and living in the USA, a country that she thinks has a lot to offer in many areas, but is lacking in others.

-What are the positive and negative aspects of living in the USA?
Having lived in NYC and in Orlando, I can tell you that it’s night and day when you compare the two cities So, I am just painting with broad general strokes here. There is a decidedly anti-intellectual feeling in this country. Lack of education and manners is rampant. Priorities are decidedly jumbled. We spend millions on a war for nothing at all while people here go without medical care. The government is a mess. The education system needs to be completely revamped. People eat too much, watch too much TV, consume too much, discard too much, and not care enough, except when it comes to what celebrity is in bed with another celebrity. Religion interferes with common sense. People are prudish and repressed. Nudity is frowned upon but someone’s head being blown up in a movie is acceptable. People are very violent. People don’t read. People don’t speak correctly. People don’t travel abroad. People don’t care about other countries in the world. People are selfish. It’s depressing at times.

But, on the other hand, there is freedom (for most people on most days), and safety, and money to throw around (only because the debt keeps building). If you close your eyes to things that matter and don’t mind all the mess, you can live quite happily.

-Do you have any tips for our readers about living in the USA?
If I had known half of what I know now, I am not sure I would have made the same choice. Perhaps if I had stayed in Argentina, I would not be making as much money as I am now, but I would be healthier and more at peace.

http://www.expatinterviews.com/usa/natalia.html

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By Go Right Young Man, February 3, 2010 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

Interesting interview and comments on this subject of China. 

I believe China’s internal struggles -by way of the demeaning abject poverty across most of the nation- will ultimately lead China to something looking quite different in the next 30-50 years.  Possibly fracturing into several interlinked yet competing spheres in a global market.

Whatever the region looks like in 30 years it will remain a viable and large workforce.  The same may not be said for the West if not addressed now.

As an aside. In the next century fresh water will be treated not unlike oil is today.  Natural resources will be in highest demand.  China will not have all too much to offer.  But Central, South and North America will if we don’t first destroy it.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if places like Brazil and Mexico ended up with both a growing workforce AND the natural resources to be the coming driving engines of the world?

Of course in this world North America will remain in very good condition.  That is if we can reverse the trend of polluting and destroying our environment.

Unfortunately this would still leave much of Africa suffering greatly. 

All worth thinking about.  I think.

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By johannes, February 2, 2010 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Maby we can go for the following hypothetical thinking, the intellectueel and working class people come together, from Europe and the USA, and start a new thinking, with the best parts of the political basic thinkings from the last 100 years.

This is not an utopia but an realistic posibility, and also necessarily, when we wanth to survive as nations, not necessary rich, but free humans.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, February 2, 2010 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

The real crisis will begin when China’s standard of living rises to the point where the best and brightest minds in the world go there to live.  They already have four times the population of the US.  That means four times as many smart people.  They simply have a brain power advantage.  We once were able to compensate with superior development of domestic brains and by enticing foreign brains to move here, but those days are over.  Soon our own talent will be leaving for China.  If you think America is fat, lazy, and stupid now, just wait 20 years.  We’ll be fatter, lazier, stupider, AND poorer.  You won’t be able to swing a dead cat without hitting someone chewing with their mouth open—some pallid, doughy, oily faced, 20-something with flaccid man tits and little piglike eyes who orders from the drive thru window at Taco Bell and then eats in his car in the parking lot.  An ambitionless troglodyte poisoned by environmental estrogen will become the archetypal American male.

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By Bobadi, February 2, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Global trade has become a world destroying monster of capitalism, enriching the elite, while destroying our environment, raping world resources, and destroying the middle class to enlarge the holdings of the rich.

Our people will do nothing about it as long as we are provided big screens in every home to watch it all on, and cheap fast food to wolf down while we watch it.

Bread and circus.

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By johannes, February 2, 2010 at 3:15 am Link to this comment

The Chinees are gething bolder all the time, now they puth so much pression on Europeên compagnies who are already working and producing in China, to do replace the rest of their production proces from Europe to China, kind of chantage.

We are loosing all the time more important industries, wy are we not giving them subsidies so they can stay in Europe ” USA ” so that we keep the work and more important for the future the Know-how.

Other wise se are digging our own grave !!!

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By Bobadi, January 31, 2010 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

Chinese Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei said the United States would be responsible for “serious repercussions” if it did not reverse the decision to sell Taiwan $6.4 billion worth of helicopters, Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missiles, minesweepers and communications gear. The reaction came even though China has known for months about the planned deal—

“There has been a change in China’s attitude,” said Kenneth G. Lieberthal,—“The Chinese find with startling speed that people have come to view them as a major global player. And that has fed a sense of confidence.”

—after two centuries of exploitation by the West, China is resuming its role as one of the great nations of the world.

—at the December climate conference—China publicly reprimanded White House envoy Todd Stern, dispatched a Foreign Ministry functionary to an event for state leaders and fought strenuously against fixed targets for emission cuts in the developed world.

—Internet freedom and cybersecurity, highlighted by Google’s recent threat to leave China unless the country stops its Web censorship. At China’s request, that topic was left off the table at this year’s World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland—

China dismisses concerns
Analysts say a combination of hubris and insecurity appears to be driving China’s mood. On one hand, Beijing thinks that the relative ease with which it skated over the global financial crisis underscores the superiority of its system and that China is not only rising but has arrived on the global stage—much faster than anyone could have predicted. On the other, recent uprisings in the western regions of Tibet and Xinjiang have fed Chinese leaders’ insecurity about their one-party state. As such, any perceived threat to their power is met with a backlash.—

The unease over China’s new tone is shared by Europeans as well. “How Should Europe Respond to China’s Strident Rise?” is the title of a new paper from the Center for European Reform. Just two years earlier, its author, institute director Charles Grant, had predicted that China and the European Union would shape the new world order.

“There is a real rethink going on about China in Europe,” Grant said in an interview from Davos. “I don’t think governments know what to do, but they know that their policies aren’t working.”

U.S. officials first began noticing the new Chinese attitude last year. Anecdotes range from the political to the personal.

At the World Economic Forum last year, Premier Wen Jiabao lambasted the United States for its economic mismanagement. A few weeks later, China’s central bank questioned whether the dollar could continue to play its role as the international reserve currency.—

And in another vignette, confirmed by several sources, a senior U.S. official involved in the economy hosted his Chinese counterpart, who then made a series of disparaging remarks about the bureau that the American ran. Later that night, the two were to dine at the American’s house. The Chinese representatives called ahead, asking what was for dinner. They were informed that it was fish. “The director doesn’t eat fish,” one of them told his American interlocutor. “He wants steak. He says fish makes you weak.”—-

The menu was changed.

[I wonder if the American bowed as low as Obama when he arrived for his steak????]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35167044/ns/world_news-washington_post

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By johannes, January 31, 2010 at 3:50 am Link to this comment

TO Petsche,

Vous ce trompe de lanque, cette site est écrire an Anglais avec un accent Americain.


Salutation, Johannes

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By petsche, January 30, 2010 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Die Befuerchtung dass es den Menschen unter einem Chinaregime schlechter gehen wuerde als unter dem jetzigen Zinseszinssystem mit seinen Zeltstaedten ist unbegruendet. Das Regime wird eben nur ganz anders sein.

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By bachu, January 28, 2010 at 2:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

China should be thwarted and humiliated by the by west through its covert and overt support of the splitist sentiments in Taiwan.  As long as Taiwan is propped up to be independent China will continue to be viewed as a second rate power.

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JohnMcD's avatar

By JohnMcD, January 27, 2010 at 12:25 am Link to this comment

I never felt Chinese culture was monolithic in deference to the state…  While there are indeed strong traditions of collectivism, there are likewise ancient texts promoting individualism and hands-off leadership.  Sometimes, I think we make it harder to understand by emphasizing the differences when really most societies struggle with the same sorts of polar pull that exists in America. 

I am glad to see China’s material progress, and I do not believe that their success is a threat to ours - but they have a really long way to go in terms of education and intellectual openness that is required of a nation that hopes to become the dominant player.  Already there are signs of credit contractions, and in a few years China is very likely to end up in its own cyclical economic crisis.  That might just mean slightly slower growth or a tough transition period from export dependency to domestic demand, but they are not on a linear path to achieving global supremacy. 

Anyway - aside from future predictions:  China is already one of the largest regional powers in an increasingly multi-polar world.  With several powers (US, EU, Russia) more or less functional and in-tact, no one state can really act as a global hegemon.

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By CXonservative Yankee, January 24, 2010 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If China does rule the world, history will show that the USA gave them the tools they needed for the takeover.

Frankly without a single world class university, nor one non copied indigenous product, I have trouble seeing how they can become a world power.

All those US dollars China holds are worthless if our government says they are.

What would a US bankruptcy look like?

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By christian96, January 23, 2010 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

The global ruling classes have invested strongly
in China.  Why wouldn’t it grow?  Ask Kathy Lee,
WalMart, and Niki how much they love that cheap
slave labor in the far east.  BIG BUCKS!

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By ibh, January 21, 2010 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Excellent reading, should become required reading at all universities.

This book should help Americans understand that there is a fast growing world outside their borders. If they fail to educate themselves and their children, they will be left further and further behind.

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By ibh, January 21, 2010 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Excellent reading, should become required reading at all universities.

This book should help Americans understand that there is a fast growing world outside their borders. If they fail to educate themselves and their children, they will be left further and further behind.

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By johannes, January 20, 2010 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

But it must be clear for every person, that this China is going further and further in is conquering of the world, you can try to change things with an wave of one’s hand, but they go for it, the internet, no Avatar cinema, well to much to tell you, in my field they try to stop our work in finding out our History of mankind, in the Taklamakan Mummies ” Tocharian Mummies “, while the result of the DNA test shows that this people where Indo-Europeên and not Chinees, and that this Tocharian people lived there in the Taklamakan dessert 1000 years earlyer as the Chinees, and that they brought the Hors, the saddle, the working of iron, and others to the Chinees, they are crying and weeping in Peking, they don’t like this, the big bosses.

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By AC, January 19, 2010 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes, another point is that climate change - if anthropomorphic climate change is indeed real (and only Australians seem to be disputing this), then China will turn to desert. James Lovelock says that war between Russia and China is thus inevitable - and that is why Putin is arming like crazy.

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By rick roe, January 19, 2010 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

China, like India, will never really be able to lift itself form the swamp of poverty and extreme overpopulation and rise to a level of importance and prosperity that the USA and EU enjoy.

The reason these two countries are advancing at all is because they have one thing, and one thing only to offer the rest of the world; unbridled, and unregulated, dirt cheap labor. 

So everyone ooh’s and aah’s while they abuse their workforce and poision the environment.  Enjoy your cheap, lead filled toys!

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By AC, January 19, 2010 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Agree with most of the analysis by Jacques except on the point of China adopting capitalism early as a reflection of its culture respecting individualism. Doesn’t untrammeled capitalism work better with authoritarian governments in general?

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By liecatcher, January 11, 2010 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

“When China Rules the World”

The number one rule in the PREDATOR’S HANDBOOK is
prey where the money is.
GENERAL ELECTRIC, GE, was one of the recipients of
$billions of the ‘give taxpayer money
away program’, borrowed from the FED, in order to enrich cabal members & further enslave America under the guise of jump starting the economy. So it should come as no surprise to find GE in China to help build a smart electric grid to increase the efficiency of electricity distribution. IBM and other big name companies are also there to get a piece of that $600billion pie. It should be revealing if GE is able to screw CHINA the way it did AMERICA. And what might happen if GE wants
its contract to stipulate payment in EUROS.

“A Power Play for China’s Electrical Grid
With Beijing budgeting $600 billion to upgrade its
network, global giants are racing to plug in”

By Bruce Einhorn
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/
content/09_52/b4161100204713.htm

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By Bobadi, January 10, 2010 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

Thank Radson

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By johannes, January 10, 2010 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

To Bodadi,

Thank you for your respons.

Salutation

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By johannes, January 10, 2010 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

To Radson,

The wall paintings I mean are in the cave’s and are 40 000 years old.

In south America, they have found children toy’s with small wheels, but no where are they be found in the daily live of this people, this toy’s are from about 1000 bc.

The Brons-disc with in gold the Sun-ship and the Arcades stars on it, found in the south of Germany, in 2000 is older as the same Sun-ships found in the Egyptian wall-paintings from 4000bc.

The oldes building on earth, wath rest of it is to be found on the island Malta, the buildings on the Orkneys islands are from 4000bc.

The Chinees have the luck that not so much of their culturel and intelectuel heritage are destroyd, if you think on wath has happened to all knowledge we have lost, Byzantium, the bibliotheek of alexandriê thousands of years of knowledge destructed by fire.

One thing is always intriging me why the Chinees try to destroy all burial sites of the Indo-Europeên Tocharian people, who made in all probability the first Copper and Tin and maby Brons.
Their must be still whole city’s be buryd by the sand, very intriging place in old Indo-Europa, now China.

Salutation.

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By Bobadi, January 10, 2010 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

Transport & Exploration

  * The kite
  * Manned flight with kites
  * The first relief maps
  * The first contour transport canal
  * The parachute
  * Miniature hot-air balloons
  * The rudder
  * Masts and sailing: Batten sails - staggered masts; Multiple masts - Fore and aft rigs; Leeboards; Watertight compartments in ships
  * The helicopter rotor and the propeller
  * The paddlewheel boat
  * Land sailing
  * The canal pound-lock

Sound & Music

  * The large tuned bell
  * Tuned drums
  * Hermetically sealed research laboratories
  * The first understanding of musical timbre
  * Equal temperament in music

Warfare

  * Chemical warfare: poison gas, smoke bombs and tear gas
  * The crossbow
  * Gunpowder
  * The flame-thrower
  * Flares and fireworks
  * Soft bombs and grenades
  * Metal-cased bombs
  * Land mines
  * Sea mines
  * The rocket
  * Mutli-staged rockets
  * Guns, cannons, and mortars - fire lance; true gun

Sources:
Robert Temple , “The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery and Invention”
Joseph Needham , “Science and Civilisation in China”
Bibliography used for this research

I do not intend this site to be a blind testimonial to some supremacist view of Eastern technology. I am aware that Needham and Temple are often overly enthusiastic regarding their views of Chinese achievements pre-dating some of the West. Often the “discovery” was only an implementation of some aspect of technology with little or no development of the science. Some questions that I would like to explore include:

  What were the major factors that turned the advanced civilization (on a large scale) of China two thousand years ago, into the more comparatively undeveloped status of today?
  Why were some of the major discoveries of China not refined and advanced to accelerate into more and more technological achievements?
  Did the absence of a period of Dark Ages, and subsequent Renaissance serve to inhibit fast dissemination of achievements?
  What part did politics, ethics, religion, international conflict, etc., play on the advancement of technology from discovery to national service?

This site will be used to develop and integrate my impressions with others, and hopefully will serve as a collaboration for readers to share our own ideas. For an interesting analytical discussion of some perceptions of influences in the West and the East, check out THE GREAT DIVERGENCE: EUROPE, CHINA, AND THE MAKING OF THE MODERN WORLD ECONOMY by Kenneth Pomeranz, Princeton: Princeton University Press 2000. A review may be found on the Communications for a Sustainable Future site in an article by A.G. Frank.

A site of great interest from the Center for the Study of Chinese Prehistory explores the fossil evidence for human evolution in China.

http://chineseculture.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/westdebt.htm

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By Bobadi, January 10, 2010 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

Agricultural

  * Row Cultivation of crops and intensive hoeing
  * The Iron Plow
  * Efficient Horse Harness - trace; collar
  * The Rotary Winnowing Fan
  * The multi-tube (‘modern’) seed drill

Astronomy & Cartography

  * Recognition of sunspots as solar phenomena
  * Quantitative cartography
  * Discovery of the Solar Wind
  * The Mercator map-projection
  * (Mounted) Equatorial astronomical instruments

Engineering

  * Spouting bowls and standing waves
  * Cast iron
  * The double-acting piston bellows: air, liquid
  * The Crank handle
  * The ‘Cardan suspension’, or gimbals
  * Manufacture of steel from cast iron
  * Deep drilling for natural gas
  * The belt drive (or driving-belt)
  * Water Power
  * The chain pump
  * The Suspension Bridge
  * The first cybernetic machine
  * Essentials of the steam engine
  * ‘Magic Mirrors’
  * The ‘Siemens’ steel process
  * The segmental arch bridge
  * The chain-drive
  * Underwater salvage operations

Domestic & Industrial Technology

  * Lacquer: the first plastic
  * Strong beer (sake)
  * Petroleum and natural gas as fuel
  * Paper
  * The Wheelbarrow
  * Sliding Calipers
  * The magic lantern
  * The fishing reel
  * The Stirrup
  * Porcelain
  * Biological pest control
  * The umbrella
  * Matches
  * Chess
  * Brandy and whisky
  * The mechanical clock
  * Printing - block printing; movable type
  * Playing-cards
  * Paper money
  * ‘Permanent’ lamps
  * The spinning-wheel

Medicine & Health

  * Circulation of the blood
  * Circadian rhythms in the human body
  * The science of endocrinology
  * Deficiency diseases
  * Diabetes discovered by urine analysis
  * Use of thyroid hormone
  * Immunology - inoculation against smallpox

Mathematics

  * The decimal system
  * A place for 0
  * Negative numbers
  * Extraction of higher roots and solutions of higher numerical equations
  * Decimal fractions
  * Using algebra in geometry
  * A refined value of pi
  * ‘Pascal’s’ triangle of binomial coefficients

Magnetism

  * The first compass
  * Dial and pointer devices
  * Magnetic declination of the Earth’s magnetic field
  * Magnetic remanence and induction

The Physical Sciences

  * Geobotanical prospecting
  * The First Law of Motion
  * The hexagonal structure of snowflakes
  * The seismograph
  * Spontaneous combustion
  * ‘Modern’ geology
  * Phosphorescent paint

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By radson, January 10, 2010 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

Bonjour Johannes the undeniable fact that inventions and innovations have a intermingling aspect to it is true ,although many travelling peoples in ancient times were not endowed with a uniform written
language of their own ,yet were able to grasp the verbal form of communication .To compare European Civilizations with that of the Middle Kingdom is only viable with certain civilizations ,more specifically ,the
Greeks and the Romans.There is no disputing the beauty of the Renaissance ,but France and Spain are relatively young countries compared to China.

“Four thousand years ago ,when we couldn’t even read ,the Chinese knew all the absolutely useful things we boast about today”

Voltaire

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By johannes, January 10, 2010 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

To Radson,

Bonjour, to place an innovation, on the right historycel place in history and country is very difficult.

Some innovations traveled an enormes distance in time and distance, before they found their place of discovery.

Even in books, from different writers you may find facs, every were, well specially in the beginning around the Caucasus, its like an Derwis, every thing is whirl around, and contacts and false contacts is making things not bether or let we say easier to place.

The fact is that some groups of human were more artistic and innovative as others, an prove for this is the wall painting in France, Spain and than in an small corridor to middle-Europe and siberia.

Salutation.

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By radson, January 10, 2010 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

To Johannes

Bonjour a vous ,I will not list them list them for the purpose of relisting them ,however for the posters that are interested the information can be found in ‘Science and Civilization in China’ volume VII
part 2. Also there is a list at the end of the book ‘The Man who Loved China ’ by Simon Winchester.

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By johannes, January 10, 2010 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

To Radson

A citaat from you: For a millennium they were leading the world in world class innovations and discoveries.

Can you name them, the facts, not the mythical ones.

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By Charlie Freak, January 8, 2010 at 1:57 am Link to this comment

Radison & Bobadi,

The pollution thing is a worry, but then we guys in
the West have been putting up with a massive
reduction in sperm count for several years, without
much comment:

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?
xmlFilePath=journals/iju/vol2n1/sperm.xml

As far as China falling behind technically, the
current theory (which I like) is that all their
bright people became obsessed with passing the court
exams toward the end of the Ming and into the Qing
dynasties. They were spending all their time
memorizing poems and Confucian proverbs to the
detriment of their science. Mao (well, really Sun
Zhongshan/Yat-sen before him) saved them from this
nonsense and brought them back on track. Mao also did
his best to stamp out a lot of superstition and
familial piety, but unfortunately this has been
creeping back of late.

Chris

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By radson, January 7, 2010 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment

Talking about China in this day and age -especially westerners -one could safely assume that the name of Professor Joseph Neednam would arise and become a centerpiece in this discussion
concerning China ,but up to now it has not been the case.Professor Neednam was and is still considered the foremost expert of the Chinese Civilization not only to Western readers but by the Chinese people
themselves. The sense of hysteria that I gather from the posters with reference to China especially from the fans of Sen. Lieberman and Courtney is ill founded and nothing more than a continuation of the
MIC to maintain high tech jobs in their States,with relation to the non existent threat from the Chinese Navy.The mindboggling fact that China has been able to advance industrially at such a rapid rate -which
makes the Soviet Five year Plans look minor- is a testament in itself.There was a period in Chinese history that became to be known as the Needham Question ,which basically asks ,why did Chinese
technical dominance disappear for a couple of hundred years for no apparent reason ,when for a millennium they were leading the world in world class innovations and discoveries and just in the last twenty
years -after having shed the Stalinist Ideology-have become so influential and imposing .The Chinese Foreign policy cannot be compared to the British Imperialists or their lackeys across the pond and they don’t
project power in the same way ,although at the moment their paths do cross for similar resources’ and much of the present geopolitics is based on this up and coming confrontation.

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By Bobadi, January 7, 2010 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

Chris,

I have a friend who visits China often, and he is very impressed with the clean and friendly cities he speaks about.

Still, I can’t help but wonder if this is the pretty face of China, while the body of it deteriorates in polluted filth.

“—a study by the commission released in 2007 found that birth defects had increased nearly 40% from 2001 to 2006, coinciding with the country’s explosive economic growth.

The government’s acknowledgment was a victory for environmentalists, some of whom have faced arrest and harassment for trying to publicize the relationship between pollution and disease.

“So many people are wondering why, when our lives are supposed to be getting better, there are more and more babies born with birth defects and couples who are infertile,” said Huo Daishan, an environmental activist from Henan province who has been fighting against printing, paper manufacturing and chemical dye factories whose pollution he believes has caused disease clusters along the Huai River.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/02/world/fg-china-birth-defects2

Also: A “democracy” of the few is not a democracy.

However it is also ironic that the repression of freedom in China, could also lead to real solutions to its environmental catastrophes. In fact, I would love to hear from anyone who could explain how individual freedom and its free markets can compare to severe dictatorial targets set by a panel hopefully concerned with it’s, and the world’s environment.

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By Chris, January 6, 2010 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What’s this Moscow-Stanford Teleport that was mentioned? I never heard of it and neither has Google!

I live in China (Shenzhen) and I think Martin is right on the money. We keep saying that China is totalitarian, but in fact it’s very democratic. At the top, nobody has complete power - it’s a consensus of 9 people. Lower down, as Martin said things are very decentralised. I’ve found my local government in Shenzhen very responsive to the masses, who complain and sue vociferously. We have great parks, a wonderful metro and nice well-kept beaches. Maybe that’s why Obama’s brother lives here!

Chris

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By johannes, January 4, 2010 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

To Boze Clown,

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By teller, January 3, 2010 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

That China loves Peace, and Economic Developments, and American and NATO love War, and Destruction?

Quote: “johannes, December 31, 2009 at 3:25 pm #

What is Enigma on the following sitation.

While USA and Nato fight the Terrorist or Taliban, the Chinees are creating an enormes copper mine in that same Afganistan, where our soldiers geth killed. ”

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By Bozo Clown, January 3, 2010 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The mere fact that the Western nations opened their doors to Chinese goods, allowed their busineses to outsource and even transfer their whole production and techological capability lock, stock and barrel which led to the deindustrialization of the G-7, signifies that China’s phenomenal growth was planned all along. All these bad policies are primarily designed to systematically destroy the wealth of the Western nations. It just goes to show you that contrary to common misperceptions the Western elite know how to plan longterm to attain their NWO agenda, something which we normally associate to Eastern/Asian culture.

“In Politics nothing happens by chance, if it happens you can bet it was planned that way”

Franklin D. Roosevelt

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By myloUSMC, January 2, 2010 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

FOLKS just take 2 years of Mandrin Chineese and realize that an Economy that has existed while the anglo was still learning how to sail will be always be A player in the world and its overall conditions . Now tih The wireless world we are going to be even more heavly influnced by how the Chineese want things to go. THEY have slowly invaded every economic part of our Culture.They are slowly overriding the world in all forms…....
Prada.,Gucci,Clothing furs, coats,Ipods,computers, and least we forget SCIENTIFIC accomplishments
If they took the top 3% of their Acidemia and compared it to our to 25%  they woudl still win by a wide margin( individual exceptions excluded)
We donot have the people or resources to compete over the next 50 years and win .That is unless we make a very strong stand starting TODAY not in 20 years at which time the average American will say it is not my fault it ist the last administrations or the one before that…...
WE cannot add ,subtract , read ,or reason.We are now USERS of other cultures information , NOT EVER LEARNERS…Our leaders sell out even if unknowling they are mear pawns make that checkers as pawns do have VALUE Q,P to Q,p4———- and Check

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By will, January 2, 2010 at 5:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m an American who’s lived and worked in China for six years.  With the utmost respect I can pay you, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking (writing) about.  The Chinese are stupid in every sense of the word.  It’s manifested in a thousand ways every single day of my life here.  If they’re next to “rule” the world, what a sad world for everyone.  The Chinese are inept, incompetent, and to be totally honest, they are extremely rude.  They lack every social grace.  And, in case you’re wondering, I enjoy my life here.

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By johannes, December 31, 2009 at 11:25 am Link to this comment

What is Enigma on the following sitation.

While USA and Nato fight the Terrorist or Taliban, the Chinees are creating an enormes copper mine in that same Afganistan, where our soldiers geth killed.

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By Robert Singer, December 31, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

[Meat, Milk and Motors: The New China Syndrome by Robert Singer quoted in the WSJ Online]

August 21, theatres around the nation screened the documentary I.O.U.S.A. and a live discussion with America’s most notable financial leaders and policy experts, including Warren Buffett; William Niskanen, chairman of the Cato Institute; Pete Peterson, senior chairman of The Blackstone Group and former U.S. Comptroller General, Dave Walker.

August 25, Mr. William Niskanen, CEO of the Cato Institute, confirmed his remarks on the I.O.U.S.A. post-broadcast panel discussion.

Dear Mr. Singer,
I do not have a tape of my remarks last Thursday evening. As I remember, however, I expressed being puzzled why the central banks of China, Japan, and South Korea have continued to invest so much in U.S. Treasury securities.  For these central banks have earned a negative real return on these securities, for which the interest rate has been lower than the depreciation of the dollar.

I would value your judgment about this puzzle… William A. Niskanen

China is a “Hot Topic” at the nationally and internationally recognized Center for Trade Policy at Mr. Niskanen’s Cato Institute, but the research staff has been unable to find a political, diplomatic, military or economic solution to the China puzzle, because there isn’t one.

China’s economic policy is an enigma that would baffle Ludwig von Mises and Karl Marx. 

The answer to the Chinese enigma: China is now the Air Pollution champion of the world.

Read the rest at http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article8911.html

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By dihey, December 27, 2009 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

P.S. I forgot to mention another aspect of the French analogy. The French had pegged their franc to the dollar at a ‘permanent, unchangeable’ level that made the Franc 10% cheaper than the pound. As a result French products and services for export tended to be cheaper than those of the UK, hence the French economic boom which was then the only boom in the developed world. Repeated attempts by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and the Bank of England as well as of the governments of the US and UK to make the French up value their Franc failed miserably. Sounds familiar?

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By dihey, December 27, 2009 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

The chat between Scheer and Jaques completely misses the point that of all National Banks, that of China is the must flush with dollars.

That fact alone shows the vapidness of Jaques averring that the US and the UK did not rule the world in the past. For many decades all major financial and commercial transactions went through the London banks and later through the New York banks. The fact that this was not the typical ‘ruling’ by Colonial Vice-Roy’s or home-grown- dictators-in-their-pockets cannot be used to justify the cavalier statement that the UK and US never ruled the world. Financially they did. Wars (WW1 and Korea-Vietnam-Iraq-Afghanistan)and in the case of our country also stupid business/banking destroyed their near-absolute ruling power.

The ruling power of China will become glaringly evident when the US will need to borrow huge amounts of dollars in the near future and cannot obtain enough at home, in Europe, or elsewhere. 

There is an eerie analogy with France between 1923 and 1930. Its economy was booming and the Banque de France’s holding of gold at a time of the ‘gold standard’ for currencies was larger than that of the US, UK, and Germany combined.

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By johannes, December 26, 2009 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

To Liquor store Larry


This is not my idea of a discusion, so I say Sjalom,
little sjlemiel.

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By johannes, December 26, 2009 at 3:47 am Link to this comment

@ Liquor store larry,

Your approach of the enormes problem of poor people in Africa, is so respectless, well I can not find the good words for it, or I have to use the words I do not like to use.

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Liquor Store Larry's avatar

By Liquor Store Larry, December 25, 2009 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Besides, we Jews owe the Chinese a large debt of gratitude on Christmas. If it was not for the Chinese we would have no place to eat on Gentile holidays.

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Liquor Store Larry's avatar

By Liquor Store Larry, December 25, 2009 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

“Climate change”? ROTFLMAO! ... Bwaaaaaa haaaaa haaaa haaaaa ... How ironic that it is the most secular among us who think they can “play God” when it comes to changing “weather” and make a religion of “Darwin” but ignore his primary message which is species come and go no matter what you dunderheads do. Nobody thinks pouring toxins into the environment is a “swell idea’ but the stupidity of humans who are prepared to spend real money on derelicts like Kofi Anon who thinks he can guilt us into believing that the low lifes in Sudan have famine because of our SUVs is a much bigger and more immediate threat to humanity. Ya want to help the third world without destroying the developed world? Buy them some damn mosquito nets and it will do more than pissing it away on African nations who will just steal the money anyway and do nothing about any kind of pollution! In case I have not made myself clear, you can not effect the fuggin weather and the planet is in no need of “saving” and will be just fine long after you are dead.

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By NovaM, December 25, 2009 at 1:09 am Link to this comment

If burning fossil fuels fueled the rise to dominance of the American, British, German & French economies, who are they to tell China & others that a coal-based, highly successful & growing economy must abandon fossil fuels for clean energy? Especially when so much American debt is now owned by the Chineese government?

Only a massive popular environmental worker’s movement demanding clean energy to assure a clean working & living environment will force the Chineese & other developing nations to abandon or lessen their dependence on fossil fuels as the source of their economic success (in addition to cheap labor).

“Studies have concluded that the single biggest factor to the growth of the Chinese economy in the past 30 years is not it’s massive underpaid workforce, nor it’s abundance of cheap raw materials & energy, but the fact that the Chinese government spends little or nothing to control or minimize the environmental and human damages caused by it’s unregulated industries.

It is no surprise, therefore, that China had no interest in advancing the goals of the climate summit in Copenhagen in December of 2009.

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By Bobadi, December 24, 2009 at 9:47 am Link to this comment

Fattkidd: “the leaders of our capitalist society have failed the people by failing to guarantee that at least a few crumbs of the ever increasing productivity of the American Worker are being shared with those actually responsible for our amazing level of productivity.”

I’m trying to understand what we are producing here.

Can you cite some examples of our “amazing level of productivity?”

I thought we are pretty much a service economy, bolstered by various frauds such as ballooning and deceitful inflation of property values, and outright theft from our children’s future by placing them in massive debt.

It seems to me that production has long since left this country, because of our higher standard of living then simple “rice bowl” survival.

I also think it laughingly ironic that the cold war and our fight against communism kept us safe in our own superior economy, and that only after we “won” that war, and those walls came down, that our elite were free to show us exactly; it was capitalism all the while and not communism which would level world economies, raise up the poor and devastate the middle class under the regime of the very rich.

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By magwa101, December 23, 2009 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

This book, tho’ it purports to be “taking the Chinese view” is actually a ridiculous example of neo colonialism. “They” don’t want democracy, they wouldn’t really “get it” anyway would they. Freedom to choose is a decidedly Western ideal right?

Sure:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/world/asia/24china.html?hp

One big happy Han family.

The revolts from within will be environmental. Imagine having no one to even address you grievances when the county is being so badly polluted.

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By denk, December 23, 2009 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

By johannes,
**
And the Chinees are even wors, they are doing the whole day, nothing else as exterminate their naburs, and take their land and replace this people by Han chinees.

denk, have u been to tibet…...?


johan,

its well documented fact that yanks have been killing third world peasants for sports since…. 1898
here’s just the tip of the iceberg

inyurl.com/yk9c8qw
tinyurl.com/yhsce6s
tinyurl.com/yfbqx7e
tinyurl.com/yhcdj8z
the anglos have been doing it almost on a daily basis,
so much so that the bbc didnt even bother to mention who was the bomber in somalia…coz it presumed [correctly ] that its redundant !
tinyurl.com/d6my5u


i dont get it, mr johan
u mean u have been to tibet and witness the hans
**doing the whole day, nothing else as exterminate their “naburs”,**.......something “even worse” than the yanks ?

can u substantiate this outrageous claim ?

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By johannes, December 23, 2009 at 2:54 am Link to this comment

To Denk,

Have you been in Thibet lately, or in the country of the Oeighoere, its real horrible to see, the way this people are drowning in the Chinees avalanche, its an very old way of expansion, if you have the mass of people.

What the USA is doing thats some thing differend, we have wrote pages full about the mis behavior of the US governement pushed by its own lobby’s, that will end some day and than it will start rolling back, as always in history, if you sow wind you wil reap storm.
.

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By denk, December 22, 2009 at 10:03 pm Link to this comment

By johannes,
**
And the Chinees are even wors, they are doing the whole day, nothing else as exterminate their naburs, and take their land and replace this people by Han chinees. **

are u barking up the wrong tree mr johan ?
http://tinyurl.com/ydk62cs
the yanks have been killing third world peasants 2000 miles away from home…..on a daily basis for ages.

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By James Godbolt, December 22, 2009 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The falling rate of profit and the expanding middle class and their demands will have China’s growth rate back into the Western bracket before you can say Mao. Then we can all visit this again.

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By johannes, December 22, 2009 at 4:05 am Link to this comment

Where I live in France, and Europe, first comes the person, mankind, respect for live as it comes, I speak as an Citizen, and for citizen.

Thats the differend with the USA, power, money, egoîstic behavior, a human has no value, its flag waving and hero’s.

And the Chinees are even wors, they are doing the whole day, nothing else as exterminate their naburs, and take their land and replace this people by Han chinees.

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By duffmon, December 21, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The point is; when you say China will take over the World (note the fear-mongering they implied).
If you mean China the country because of its economic boom and military strength will buy up and take over the world and force it to kneel to its power/then I say you’re wrong. Because China’s GDP isn’t anywhere near that powerful today or in 2050 (unless they really do take ownership of what is produced and exported from China).

But if you mean that the European Union and United States Corporate powers which produce the overly disproportionate GDP, along with their huge military complex, use China and their other slave colonies to rule over the world’s economies; then I would say you are real close to the truth.

Can you say “One World Order”? And by one world order I mean; Western Military, Industrial, Media and Political Complex.

Or if you’re into the acronym thing;
WMIMPC
Once the One World Order is accomplished then the W in WMIMPC will stand for WORLD! U do understand that this acronym is my creation; right! The OWO would not use anything so negative. They would use something like; “For the Good of Our Children Order” or something more positive sounding.

The laws are being created now throughout the world for the OWO-ists to take total control over the human races. Make no mistake there will be a coming together of countries and societies in the near future for the betterment of mankind. But what isn’t so clear is how long will the world suffer under the evil of the One World Order before all the countries and societies come together and over throw the evil of the One World Order for the betterment of the human race.

Evil forces us into the future!
Good forces evil into the past!
And then history repeats!
We now find ourselves thrust into the future!
By duffmon

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By duffmon, December 21, 2009 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What? Just because a label on something you buy says; China or somewhere else doesn’t mean it is a factory own by that country and or people from said country.

How many American companies have move offshore?

To get a real look at where the money is going we have to look at the GDP of all the countries. So lets do.

For 2008
Here is Wiki’s; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
European Union leading the United States with 18,387,785

Here’s http://www.economywatch.com/gdp/world-gdp/
1) United States with a GDP of $13,807,550
2) Japan with a GDP of $4,381,576
3) Germany with a GDP of $3,320,913
4) China (PRC) with a GDP of $3,280,224
5) United Kingdom with a GDP of $ 2,804,437
6) France with a GDP of $2,593,779
7) Italy with a GDP of $2,104,666
8) Spain with a GDP of $1,439,983
9) Canada with a GDP of $1,436,086
10) Brazil with a GDP of $1,313,590

Notice that the European Union has been left off.

If China/Indonesia or Mexico or any other country was really producing there own products there
GDP would be alot greater. China would be leading! So why is China so far down the list.
Well, maybe its the United States and the European Union which are the real producers in those countries and just labeling them from China Indonesia and Mexico. Just maybe!

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By take, December 21, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

This is the funniest piece I’ve read on Trughdig.

To the contrary, Chinese (I am one of them) have been struggling to avoid being ruled by others.

When 85% of Chinese know how to voluntarily line up to get on a bus, you can start worrying about it. Until then, please just relax yourself. But, if you want to sell a book, that’s another matter.

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By fattkidd, December 21, 2009 at 10:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Just to clarify for some of those who did not fully understand my post, i.e. Larry: I did not state that capitalism has failed or is a failure. What I said was that the leaders of our capitalist society have failed the people by failing to guarantee that at least a few crumbs of the ever increasing productivity of the American Worker are being shared with those actually responsible for our amazing level of productivity. And, if you think we will ever gain control over greed & corruption i.e., the ‘owners’ of our society, you are more foolish than I thought. If the near collapse of the entire house-of-cards financial system didn’t work to reign these thieves in, what else could possibly do it? A total collapse is the only thing which is why I opposed any sort of bailout for anyone. Sadly, it will take China, Japan and to a lesser extent Korea & Saudi Arabia pulling out the credit rug from under us to finally get us to reform. Because, you know, according to the CEO of Goldman Sachs, they’re doing ‘God’s Work’ for us on a daily basis! It should also be stated that no political, social or economic system will ever work for an extended period of time because human nature gurantees that they will eventually fail. Don’t matter if it’s capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, state managed capitalism, whatever… they will all fail eventually due to ignorance, greed & corrpution.
Which brings me to another point: We’ll never fix our current system because the American People are too ignorant and too arrogant to change it/fix it. We’ll get ever increasingly worse governance in both the public AND private sectors because we simply are too dumb and too lazy and that goes for everyone. Hunger is what motivates people to pay attention, get involved and demand & make change. We are simply too fat right now to care. Nothing will change in this country until American’s, once again, are made ‘hungry’ both literally and figuratively. Unfortuneately, history has shown we are uncapable of making needed changes until it is too late or until after disaster has struck. I see no reason that things will be any different this time. IF you feel differently, if you see some ‘shining city on a hill’ off in the distance, then please do tell me how/why I am wrong.

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By johannes, December 21, 2009 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

To Liquor store larry,

its difficult for me to reed your comment, ” not in my name ” deceptive euphemisms, it are very beautiful words specially euphemisms its a word that can mean so much, please explain what you mean precisely and exactly.

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