RE: Larry, November 27 at 8:44 am

That explains it! I went out after 12 noon on Thanksgiving day and there were no cars on the street except a couple of teenagers. Did Truth forget to poof out the teenagers here? (I say Truth, because God does not exist.) It also worries me, because I expected to be snuffed out with everyone else. Could this be my punishment for going against God, whom I thought was Truth? Truth is I’m still alive and there are a bunch of ill mannered teens in cars hogging the streets. Truth is they probably still have their weed and wacko medicine. Now that God is not around, maybe we will have no teen pregnancies to louse up the gene pool.

I am vindicated. Though God no longer exists, I note that Truth still does. The big, bad, and the ugly! I am pleasantly surprised to find that beauty still exists, along with hope, audacity and a new President Elect. Even the beauty of the constitutional limit on the presidency of GWB. We have witnessed a miracle, wrought by Truth Almighty. Bow down Americans and worship your lucky stars. And while you are down grab your ass to make sure it is real.

Mike,

The little dog story was from a real experience brought back to me by a long lost friend. I had forgotten the incident, but have no reason to doubt the facts. I have a vague recollection of the event. It was coincident pure and simple. Linking the ancient superstition is unjustified.

The moose story was a fabrication to make some points. I do not hunt, I do not kill anything higher in the chain than ants and cockroaches. I eat dead cows, sheep, chickens and other fowl mouth beasts. I eat a variety or protein rich animal products because of dietary evolution of the human to process those food sources. As Khalil Gibran would say, we consume and are consumed. My family consumes my substance by depending upon me for the vital life support resources. I am almost used up. I used my life days in a variety of pursuits. Enough in the pursuit of sustenance, transportation and shelter, to satisfy our needs. Enough in pursuit of recreation to fill the non-essential hours of my life, and enough of the available time sleeping to renew my lactic acid balance. I did not kill a moose, but have eaten game killed by others, as well as meat from the grocery store that originated on the carcasses of farm animals slaughtered for their flesh.

To cover all the other questions in a short comment, I surrender to Truth, whether Truth favors me or not. I do not believe that Truth function is to correct our errors or to punish our sins. It is enough that I surrender to Truth. Though I surrender to Truth, I am favored by evolution to deal with Truth in a philosophic search for meaning. Lower forms seem to deal with Truth more directly and practically with appendages and capacities to serve their own evolved needs. Life is short and death is highly probable. It is certain that I am, but uncertain how long I will be. I love Truth and reach out for all the Truth brings me that serves my needs and desires. I fear Truth and seek my place of safety in the environment I find myself. Carrying a gun while carrying out a non-combat mission is asking for trouble as is entering huge buildings in over developed cities when dispersion would have protected the activities in them. There are enemies of man and of every species. Some species eat their own kind. Some kill their own kind. We consume each other’s time and resources.

You are using my time and I use yours in this, our pursuit of happiness. No, I do not believe that Truth has a brain or a central store of facts and figures. None is needed. I also do not attribute to Truth a conscience and a super moral selectivity of acts for altruistic motives. We cope.

Maybe not a complete answer to all your questions, but with a little intelligent application you can fit the answers to almost any question.

Hi Mike! Yes, I do have the whole week off.  I thought I would be grateful, but I am having a hard time with boredom. 

Anyway, you asked about atheists and what we think of signs and wonders [paraphrasing].  I can only speak for myself as an atheist.  Besides, I am only an atheist because someone attached that big red scarlett letter to my chest AFTER I rejected religion, and not at my birth which would have made more sense.  That’s okay.  Anyway, only speaking for myself, I don’t look for signs and wonders, I do not speak to the dead at all.  Ever.  So, maybe...just maybe, you are more prone to doing this and actually seeing what you believe are signs and spiritual things because you believe in them.

Whenever I get a new car--about every three years when the lease is up--I notice dozens just like mine on the road.  Way more identical cars than I had ever noticed before.  So, when I think something is near [or dear] to us, we look for signs subconciously.  I.e. When I had a baby--suddenly babies were everywhere and mine was always the cutest.  haha Truth!  Now I realise, there are always babies...and there always were.

Since I am not spiritual, I don’t seek anything.  If something does happen that seems out of the ordinary, I chalk it up to coincidence. 

And I don’t celebrate Thanksgiving. But thank you.  If you do, I hope it is a happy day for you.

And, we are fortunate to have Mike W with us! Although I have rarely commented on your material, I am quite often moved by what you have to say.  You seem to have the soul--if not always the words--of a poet.  Truth is not all analytical.

...and yes, I must not leave out and must certainly mention. Annie is here too. The one that may be holding the crew all together.

Hi, how you doing Annie? Have a Happy Thanksgiving, time off work - I hope. Talk to you later?

Welcome back Larry. You and Frank go way back. You are very down to earth and I remember a few years back when Frank called you on your education/intelligence not being up to par. You flipped the switch then proceeded to unleash a barrage of knowledge and scholarly information that dazzled the readers in the audience. I think you took Frank by surprise also. I always remembered that and respected you even more afterwards for it proved your modesty. Anyway, have you noticed that Frank has opened up more to us here. Frank is back and more approachable. You are back. The A team is broken but we have Sned, SimpleMan and GreenSnake still. And, I must not forget that big G is back in the open again, outlawed, banned but lives on with a new name.  Well, I better stick with the subject matter and try to pose a question at Frank. I am not sure if I will be able to follow his answer but I will try hard to.

Frank, you shared with me a little of the story of how a mysterious dog appeared, saved your life by guiding you out of the woods and then disappeared so to speak. You also mentioned your trophy moose that you took down one day. I see hunting for prey to eat as a natural thing, It would be true that we still carry some hunter genes within us today. How does one draw the line from a pet mammal and a hunted mammal when it comes to “feelings”? My next question would be: How does one draw the line from a human mammal from other mammals when it comes to killing and feelings of? When one eliminates God or (Truth maybe), this line is quite thin, don’t you think? You refused to carry a weapon during the war and chose to carry only supplies for aid. How did Truth and Consequences play into your view that animals, not humans, are fair game? You believe in no punishment after death, no Truthly let down, no consequence or punishment if killing an enemy, etc…I do not see how it all fits. You say Truth is your God then He is not…Frank, help me out if you have the time. Thanks in advance.

Hey Larry, how ya been?

The way that you dropped out of sight there, I really thought that you kicked the bucket. You didn’t did ya – come back from The Light with some inside info for us?

How’s your dog doing? I hope you both have been doing well. My dog died. Watching a living being struggle, try to hold on and finally gasp their last breathe is difficult and sad. I am not a hunter but it does make me wonder how one could separate a moose or deer from a dog or cat at that final moment and last breathe. During that time for my dog, my wife started to sing her the song she always sang her, “You are my sunshine, my only sunshine…” My doggie’s neck and body was limp and only her eyes were wide at the time. Her breathing was heavy and difficult. However, at the very last word of the song, she lifted her head, stopped her breathing and kissed my wife on the lips. She died very shortly afterwards. I made a small wooden casket and buried in the back yard, under an apple tree and close to our fire pit. Often my wife stops there and talks to Ashley. Sometimes, I also find myself talking there in my thoughts to her. This brings me to my question here for Thanksgiving Day.

Around many a tables right before dinner, folks will say thanks out loud. Many of these thanks are directed toward God. I have yet to hear one thank themselves during this time. “I thank myself for my good health due to my good eating habits and routine exercising…”. No, God gets many if not all the praises. So, do atheists send out thank you (s), talk to deceased loved ones, think in a wishful way as if talking to something higher up, look at things in ways and see and wonder if it is something bigger, etc…?

Lost my dad too recently. Yesterday, I sat down at the desk here and a picture of him and my mom popped up on the screen saver. Them two, down lying out by the pool, at a hotel in Vegas where we met them last year. We zoomed in from the fifteen floor and the picture came out very nice. Out of thousands of pictures on my computer, the very next random one was a nature one with sun rays shining softly through the clouds on the left side of the screen. It was in the same location that my dad was just in. The screen faded and my dad’s body was replaced by a beautiful ray of light from the clouds above. I don’t make this shit up. This shits real. How do you all handle these ideas, situations and thoughts (if you have them also)? The truth is the facts and you may say that facts and facts alone define logic. But what if logic defines truth but Truth defines logic?

HAHAHA!!!  Thanks for the belly laugh, Larry!  :D Laughed right out loud....

I apologize. And please note I only wondered if you might be. More than once.
Never said you were. And even explained why I thought you weren’t.

But here’s your apology....anyway.

No, truthdig doesn’t censor.  I have never been asked to clean up my verbiage or anything.  Neither has anyone else; I am sure.

I think their point is to keep a smooth running dig.  There are many other threads (as I am sure you know) and they cannot all be monitered for mere cursing.

The Sned,

Now that Itterus has admitted to being Glenno in cognito for so long, how about an apology to me for accusing me of being Glenno? I could deposit it in the bank along with all the other uncollectibles of my life. If it draws enough uncollectible interest I could be rich in my mind. Then I could don fancy robes and parade my good fortune among men of good will and live the life of a king --- or a clown.

I note that nobody ever accused me of being The Sned, GreenSnake, or SimpleMan. I can see why not, but my belief is much closer to yours than it is to Glenno’s. I am no longer an atheist, just an aggod. Since Truth is not God, then God must not be Truth. So it falls in with what I have been saying. Since there is no God but there is Truth, it suits me fine. Only one maxim of all beings at a time. Never use God for Truth or Truth for God. Note that I do not say that Allah, Jehovah, Yaweh, or the Great Spirit is not God. I do say that Jesus is not God, Mohammed is not God, and that no image, ikon, or object is God. Anyone who wants to use Truth as the name of God is welcome to do so as long as they do not insist that Truth is God. Thus, the Qua’ranic statement that Al Haq is God, is OK with me if that is only a name of God, not a separate God. You see, I am monotheistic. There cannot be two Gods, so if Truth is not God, there is only Truth. Many people have pointed this out to me over time, but I have not noticed that I have been arguing that all the while. The only thing I said was that Truth is God, if God is not Truth. Since it is the name, God, that is objectionable, Truth will do quite well. I do not have to change any of my underlying belief. I still believe that Truth is over all that is true. Some in this forum have agreed with that. I always did prefer Truth to God. If God is not Truth, God does not exist or is lower in the order of beings than Truth. I believe that Truth is higher than any lower being of things true.

Annie,

About language censorship. I have never censored you. Truthdig publishes a warning to those of us who write here not to use offensive language. Truthdig could censor your language by deleting it, but I could not. I would urge self censorship. I do that all the time. I try to clean up my language usage so that the syntax, grammar and logic match my intent. I object to illogical statements more than I object to the four and five letter epithets that pass for vulgarity. Vulgar means common usage implying common errors of language. It seems that Truthdig does not censor language, but asks writers to censor themselves. That is what I asked. So since you refuse, the matter is ended. You are not censored by me, Truthdig, or by Annie.  Did Truthdig ever delete a comment by you? If so, it was Truthdig, not Frank Goodman, Sr., who censored you.

What you said Glenno about Annie’s children is so despicable that any wishes she has for you are justified. She has not threatened you, she has simply wished for you what you wished for her children...which was death rather than life.

That’S simply applying the a version of Platinum Rule. Do unto others as others have done unto you.

Since you’re now out of your coward skin, please do us all a favor and google this book title. BIBLE MYTHS AND THEIR PARALLELS IN OTHER RELIGIONS. You will be able to download a copy of this book free at Google books.

Read the first few chapters on the New Testament ...and then tell us how you view your religion based on the materials in that book...and tell us just how sure you were about what you said to Annie given the contents of just those few chapters.

And then when your kids lie to you tell them how you lied to a bunch of atheists for a year or two, and how you wished death upon some children...for that is what your did, all in the name of god...and how you agreed with the theory of a theist...even thou he hadn’t an ounce of agreement in what you believe (only your right to believe it) Yet you chose to not challenge him at all...but acted like an AH for a year with stupid questions, refusing to answer the tough questions. The list Glenno is endless. The lies, the falsehoods, the weasel like snickering....a very large pile of crap to not be proud of.

Annie is doing what the religious have done to others both (believers and none believers) for thousands of years. They wished them ill will.  In some ways I think Annie is wasting her good side on shallow folks like you...but if you can’t take it Glenno, then don’t dish it out.

By admitting you are Glenno you have taken a big step toward adulthood. Congratulations. When you apologize to Annie she just might accept it.... But until you do that...she has every right to hate you and people like you forever.

Years ago I sat in the room of a RC relatives and listened to 6 RC raised adults discuss gays. There wasn’t one ounce of humanity in their discussion. Not a gram or a smidgeon of reasoned thinking. My wife and I (she was raised RC) witnessed a hour or so of sheer hatered. No science. No facts (other than the obvious)...to give their hatred reason. Your right wing Protestant viewpoints, given your comment to Annie, are just as hate filled. Just as factless. Just as unwarranted by any intelligent civilized person as anything I have ever heard.

You can’t prove god exists...you can’t prove that atheists are any better or worse than you..yet you spew hate in Jesus name like some child wailing for a toy in Walmart.

You will be the man you want to be when you act like Frank and search a bit more and hate a lot less. (And get off the “we do it for love wagon")

But my congratulations to you Glenno. You get a merit badge for what we expect from our children from day one.  To be forthright and honest and loving. That’s all that counts Glenno...even if you’re a pagan savage in the deepest jungle.

Thanks for your input, Annie,
SNED...yes, I am also Glenno.
Now who’s the coward? Tell Annie what needs to be said, coward. Stand up to the Queen, coward. Do you have any gonads?

By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 24 at 4:34 pm #

Of course I know this, Frank.  Believe it or not, MOST of my friends are xians--NOT atheists.  And most get frustrated and write me emails.  I just don’t like that.  I wish we could all just talk face to face here.  (and boy howdy...don’t think glenno wouldn’t be limping).  But alas, we are in cyberspace and cannot.  However, my friends COULD.  But it’s easier for them to contradict a good xian debunking through emails.  I have learned to chuckle at this even though it annoyed me at first.  I realised they were afraid of my words...words that were the truth and that they could not dance around.
But I digress.  Not one of them gives a shit if I curse.  I feel that you are either A). old school. or B). Knit picking. If it is A., what do you make of my dad who doesn’t like it but realises that it’s part of our world?  I won’t be censored.  Sorry.  I don’t censor people, either.  As much as there are some I would like to.... So, if it’s B. You’re not my god nor father nor the queen (and she can shove it anyway) but you’re none of these things.  Yes, you’re a person, but I can’t say whether or not you’ve won my respect enough for me to allow you to censor me.

I can’t see it any other way since you feel it’s offensive unless you’re in the privacy of your car or home. Don’t the words sound just the same, and the meaning mean the same there? 

Anyway, the actor, John Goodman is Jewish.  I have known some Jewish Goodmans but I suppose it’s like Zimmerman.  I have known both Jewish and German Zimmerman peoples. :D

GreenSnake.  HAHAAHA Thanks for that huge laugh!! You really do have to “spell it ALL out” for the worms you know.  They don’t have eyes. haha But then again, the worms in the earth walk taller than glenno. :D

Folks, I doubt that Glenno has anything to do with Frank.  Once we get outside of Frank’s blind spot, which does generate some arrogance, we find evidence of education and intelligence.  Glenno, on the other hand, is an intellectual midget, being a total prisoner of the primitive dogma of right-wing Christianity. His posts do not seem to relect any depth at all, and he was ever the rude, childish prankster. As for ittirus, the mutated Glenno, his limited intellect is evident every time he opens his mouth. Only a total moron (or a child) would make such an issue of a lone, misspelled word to the exclusion of all else! Allow me, by taking Annie’s advice, to remove the object of his discontent. 

“Now to the point...I understand what Glenno meant when he suggested that IF God exists, and IF God is a loving God, and IF God is all-knowing, and IF our stay on this celestial globe is only an instant when compared with eternity’s duration, then PERHAPS allowing children to be taken from parents who will rob them of their eternal life because they will influence them to such an extent that they reject the God and Creator of this Universe is in fact, an act of love.” --Itirus

GreenSnake:  And IF cows could jump over the moon we wouldn’t need spacecraft!  Shall we extend Glenno’s reasoning a little further?  Better to torture your friends and neighbers, if necessary, to get them into the “true” religion.  Better a little pain now than an eternity of suffering! Glenno was born in the wrong era.  He should have lived during the Spanish Inquisition, an enterprise, no doubt, that he would have excelled at.

Frank....Please....you most certainly have trashed the mystical magical miracle side of Christianity, and now you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

Since you have the guts to kill a moose why don’t you have the guts to tell Glenno how you feel about a man who condemns and or justifies the death of children based on a mother’s current beliefs.

Why don’t you condemn a man who claims he understands you then refuses to even attempt to explain your God is truth statement.

Jesus Frank....where are your balls?

With regard to your post on 11/24/08 at 12:54a, you may consider yourself ‘reported’. There is a very large difference between me offering a possible explanation for why a PERSONAL GOD may have loved your precious daughters enough to spare their souls and you stating your desire that all my children and grandchildren die. A VERY large difference...and I am surprised that none of your supporters have said the same. So all you atheists can kiss my Christian ass.

Annie,

I forgot to comment on an earlier statement about my name being Jewish. Not that we can find.

http://www.regoodman.com/england.htm

It is true that the name Goodman is an English translation of the Germanic Guttman and Gudmann, most of whom were Jewish. Many Germans of Jewish faith left the continent to go to England where they converted to Christianity and changed their names. A few retained their faith and one, Disraeli, became Prime Minister.

A Goodman was associated with Archbishop Anselm in the 12th century and even joined in the fight with the Catholic Church over the theology of Anselm.

RE: Annie Reitano, November 24 at 3:13 pm

You see, Annie, there is room for agreement and even friendship in an intellectual level conversation when there is no complete agreement or match in methodology and temper.

You enter to make a splash in the pool of tranquility, while I try to make a splash in the pool of knowledge and understanding. You have to throw stones and barbs to make your point. Truth is my only weapon. If it finds its mark, you win. If not, I lose. Heads I win, tails you lose. But truth is not a toss of the coins of fact, but the underlying and overarching reality that makes coins and facts possible.

Note that you are on the winning side of the issue of Truth is God. Truth is not God by a consensus of those writing here. None of you agreed with me for the original statement, and now I agree that with Truth, God is redundant. So Truth is not God. Congratulations! And you are not the C word, the W word, or the B word, just because you did not agree with me. LOA? LOL! WOW! or MAD! (Men Are Damned).

Gee Frank, I will try not to “blow it”.  But I have to tell you; I am loved and that’s not likely to change.

I just am who I am.  I don’t play hipocritical games for the cause of “intellectual” conversation.  I say what I think.  If it comes out in curse words, well, too damn bad.  The world is full of them.  You’d have to be stone deaf not to hear it.  It’s part of our vocabulary.  It means nothing except to the English speaking person.  Otherwise, their just sounds of frustration and anger.

I carry my dad’s name.  Reitano is my family name.  Why in the world would I keep the name of a man I was once married to?  No way.  No...the first thing, and only thing that I asked from the judge during my divorce proceedings is that I have my father’s name back.  It was granted.  I will never change it again.  And my mom’s name is sooooo long that I wouldn’t want it.  But I think your point was well made regarding mitochondrial DNA.  That’s a fact that most people don’t talk about.

RE: Larry, November 24 at 9:47 am

Welcome back and join the discussion, if not the controversy. This forum is a controversy seeking a consensus. So far, we have proved that controversy is higher in esteem than consensus. I doubt that there would even be a discussion without the controversy. I have deflated the controversy by joining the opposition to my thesis. See my comment to The Sned.

Are you still there? It’s your move.

The Sned:

“Yet Frank puts your entire belief in a mystical magical god in the trash.”

Is that statement a lie because it is not true, or not true because it is true that it is not true? I never trash anyone’s belief, no matter how distorted it seems to me. I judge only as to whether something is logical or not logical, and whether the conclusions are true or not true. I examine the premises and the definitions and claims or lack of same. I present a thesis for my belief and define words used differently from ordinary dictionary usage. I use maxims for those terms that cannot be defined, such as infinity and truth. I recognize that zero is not a place in the scale of existence or number, but is a null point reference for purposes of differentiation and comprehension of existence vs. non-existence.  As such it can be used in maths to denote analogue to digital expression of numbers to measure analog values numerically. In Boolean logic zero has the same function as zero in Arabic Algebra. One as a logical substitute for the universal positive is also not a numerical value but an expression of existence. I can no more define truth than you can define infinity. So let us accept that Truth is not God, because with Truth, a true God is redundant.

RE: Annie Reitano, November 24 at 6:45 am

Consider yourself cursed. Little Orphan Annie was used in placed of a bunch of four and five letter epithets that I prefer not to use in a public forum where it is not appreciated. My vocabulary level does not run to single syllables and gutter level words when I attempt to enter an intellectual conversation. Yet, I can indulge with the most accomplished fowl mouthed barfly. I know them all and some you never heard. I even know the origins of terms used in polite company now that started in soldier’s barracks attacks upon the virtue of women in general.

You remind me of the attitude of my first wife, bless her. She never joined the group in deeper humor that hides admiration and honorable intent. You are much wiser than my first wife, though; She did not have sense enough not to marry the likes of me to the likes of her. You would have never stooped to such a level, or risen to such a height, depending upon where you start. As mother of my first five children, she is honored for her place in my life, though we divorced after 20 years of struggle. She is not my enemy and neither are you. I honor your place on this forum, even when you disagree with me and curse the computer I use to communicate with this crowd. Please do not be offended when I muffle my mind and refer to you as Little Orphan Annie, a beloved character from the comic strips of my time and a darling of the Broadway musical of the same name.

Thank you for being Annie Raitano (nee ?????), and for using what I assume to be your legal name, even if you acquired it in a social contract of marriage to a male chauvinist. I have long advocated that women drop the habit of using their husband’s name and abandoning their family name. If English would permit it, I would have a feminine ending for the family names of girls so that the female line could be as easily traced in a genealogy as that of the male line. After all, women contribute all of the mitachondrial DNA and half of the sex genes for her sons. Women also contribute all the sex genes for girls plus their mitachondrial DNA as well.  A penis is a clitoris with bragging rights and male gonads are ovaries that descended from a higher level in order to function at all.

Annie, you are loved. Don’t blow it.

I didn’t miss that one at all, Simpleman.  But in the context, I think he was being sarcastic.

SNED, you’re a friend to me.  You have a good sound mind and strength of heart.  It’s appreciated greatly.  Know that.

Hi Larry! It’s been a long time.  Why don’t you register and contribute?  Would love to read it.

For those of you who may have missed it, the following is an exerpt from Frank’s post on Nov 20 at 4:45 PM:

Now, we can all say there is no God, but only Truth. I’ll buy that. I am convinced that Truth is not God, because there is no God, only Truth. I now agree with all of you. Thank you for bringing me to my senses and to convince me that I am wrong.

A few notes.

I wouldn’t have bet Frank was Glenno. They just acted the same in specific circumstances.

Glenno is Ittirus is Glenno. He is also a liar and a coward for not admitting it.  How you look at yourself in the mirror every morning, Glenno is beyond me...but you do it.

I can prove you’re Glenno in more than a few ways. For example you outlined precisely why Glenno thought that Annie’s twins deaths were to him, a good thing. All I said what that it was because she was an atheist.  You gave Glenno’s explanation too precisely.

You also claimed recently claimed you had checked back over last years posts to prove a point, when you had failed to notice that you couldn’t do that anymore. All of us, Annie, Simpleman, GreenSnake and others (even Larry) recognize you.

You have admitted to lying before. You leave and come back. And when Glenno was no longer permitted to post her you posted as Son of Glennoe.

You are a coward Glenno. The lowest of the low.
And even you pretend to agree with Frank...likje the kid qwho needs to get into the clubhouse by giving candy bars to all the rest of the gang.

Yet Frank puts your entire belief in a mystical magical god in the trash.

Even Frank should have some idea by now as to what a truly pathetic individual you are. What comes around does go around. And your day will come.

Frank...you have your moments but you’re no Glenno. Thank you for that.

Hi Larry,

You missed one of the more enlightened posts.  Frank has conceded that Truth is not God and that there is indeed no god.

Well, that’s a hell of a resume’ Frank.  But I have to disagree with you about your name. Goodman could very well be a Jewish name.

As for my name, it is NOT Little Orphan Annie.  It is Anne Reitano.  I would appreciate a little less hipocrisy and a little more compassion on your part since you’ve claimed the pursuit of it.  If you need to be sarcastic, and it seems that in your irritation you do; I would just as soon you curse at me right here, right now just as you do in the privacy of your car.  Hipocrisy is ugly business.

Allelujah, you’re a blessed man. Good on you.

To all who post here in their wondering personal attacks on invisible demons posing as real persons:

I am not ‘Glenno’, whoever that is or was. I have posted to different forums with different ‘names’. All but one are variations on my real name, which I use here. The most used is fdgsr. Those are initials of my first, middle and last names with sr for senior (You can Google it). I use the sr to avoid confusion with my son, foolishly named after me, who is a would be Christian preacher who claims to ‘speak in tongues’. There are probably more lies and other mistakes about me than facts or truthful assumptions.

I will break my mold and give a profile for any one craving that kind of information. I am not a private person, though I am somewhat introverted. I can afford to be open and friendly, because I do have committed no crime and am not ashamed of myself. I do not attack persons or causes. I only deal with truth and consequences. I am for and against some practices and attitudes, political, scientific, and religious. I do not hold women on a pedestal, or bow down to celebrates, potentates, or other asses. I can get sarcastic with the foolish and foolish with the sarcastic.  I have irritated irritus. I have been snide with The Sned. I have been arrogant with Simple Man, sneaky with Green Snake, and loath Leaping Lizard on another forum. I have tried to control my reactions to Little Orphan Annie, whose vulgar epithets irritate me from time to time, even the ones I use in the privacy of my own car.

I am 80 years old as I admitted. I was born before the Great Depression and lived through it in a poor family without running water, electricity, sewage system, or enough to eat. I have 7 siblings in a family half males and half females. I have older and younger siblings of both sexes. I learned to share meager resources and was attracted to socialism, atheism, and education. I served 20 years in the US Army in a medical field. I am not a physician. I have been married twice and have 7 children including males and females. My oldest son is over 50 and my youngest daughter is 20. I have 16 grandchildren and at least 4 great grandchildren. I am white, male, and straight. One great grandchild is part Oriental, one is part African, and three grandchildren are half Oriental, and 5 of my children are one eighth Cherokee Indian (Google Trail of Tears). I have worked in two foreign countries, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. I have traveled or lived in 21 foreign countries and 49 of the United States of America including Alaska and Hawaii. I have Jewish ancestors on my mother’s side, but my family name is not Jewish. I have two probable ancestors who were on the Mayflower.

I take it from information recently on this site that our Annie has lost children in some tragedy of monumental audacity of fate. I have lost no children though some of my children are lost.

I have a Master of Arts Degree in Management. It is not considered an MBA, but an academic post graduate degree following an AB in Liberal Arts and Sciences. I own a set of the Great Books of the Western World, dictionaries, Encyclopedia Brittanica, and many other volumes collecting dust after Google. I write poetry and essays but not for publication. I live in south Florida. I own my home and have no debt. I pass for 20 year younger than my age, healthy, vigorous, and active. My mother lived to 102 years and died in her sleep. My grandparents were pioneers who went west in a covered wagon caravan. I am the first in my line to get an advanced degree. I have lived the American dream.

I believe in democracy, human rights, freedom of religion, separation of religion and government, economic opportunity, compassionate neglect of self imposed failure, and pursuit of the meaning of truth.

GreenSnake, I guess Glenno didn’t understand you because you misspelled midget.  Maybe you should go back and re-type the whole thing for him again. He’s kind of dense. :D

SNED...and ONLY SNED.  I hate plenty of people. I am happy that you don’t hate.  But I hate every antagonistic asshole who would be low enough to insult me for having lost two children.  I hate fundamental xians, jews and muslims--all of whom are baby/people killers for the worst cause: their imaginary friends.  I have plenty of hate and I am not ashamed of it.  If Bible god can hate..and the Bible says he does hate liars and that he hated Esau, etc...I can hate.  And I do so with a great deal of zest!  :D

Annie -
I’m certainly happy that atheists don’t hate. I think we recognize hate when we see it, honey.

You gotta love it when someone accuses you of being an ‘intellectual midgit’ and spells midget incorrectly. Darn, that’s funny…

Frank, I am delighted that you did so well at the calculus! Now, if you would only apply some of that mathematical clarity to your own essays those muddy waters would turn into crystal-clear streams.  Muddy waters hide a lot of pot holes, you know.  You said that you laid out the logic and definitions(?) at one point.  If so, it must have been so long ago that I have no recollection, or else I saw it and found it inadequate.  Your use of such words as “truth,” “rules,” and “above” or “over” cry out for competent definitions.  Serious analysis can’t begin before we know your precise meaning for those words (and others). 

Folks, I doubt that Glenno has anything to do with Frank.  Once we get outside of Frank’s blind spot, which also generates some arrogance, we find evidence of education and intelligence.  Glenno, on the other hand, is an intellectual midgit, being a total prisoner of the primitive dogma of right-wing Christianity. His posts do not seem to relect any depth at all, and he was ever the rude, childish prankster.

“Now to the point...I understand what Glenno meant when he suggested that IF God exists, and IF God is a loving God, and IF God is all-knowing, and IF our stay on this celestial globe is only an instant when compared with eternity’s duration, then PERHAPS allowing children to be taken from parents who will rob them of their eternal life because they will influence them to such an extent that they reject the God and Creator of this Universe is in fact, an act of love.” --Itirus

GreenSnake:  And IF cows could jump over the moon we wouldn’t need spacecraft!  Shall we extend Glenno’s reasoning a little further?  Better to torture your friends and neighbers, if necessary, to get them into the “true” religion.  Better a little pain now than an eternity of suffering! Glenno was born in the wrong era.  He should have lived during the Spanish Inquisition, an enterprise, no doubt, that he would have excelled at.

I don’t remember ever pretending to be a woman, but then you’d probably know a lot about that than I would.

SNED -
Now do you have time?

Hmmm. Three acidic responses to my post. No...there YOU have it, folks...total ignorance in response to the points of my previous post. Just read your responses again. Avoidance of the issues is not a strategy.

Frank,

As I have said before, I get it.  I appreciate your extensive efforts in understanding truth to the point of Truth.  My major concern was with the deification of Truth.  Now that you have shown yourself big enough to declare that there is no god I have no more issues with you.

Annie,

No, I have never discussed my personal life here on this forum.  I totally agree with you and others that Irrantus is Glenno.  His/her thoughts run about as deep as a cork on top of a wave.  Frank’s explorations of truth runs very deep.  There’s no way they can be anyway near the same.

You are Glenno. Why not admit it?

And you faith is a sick one. It’s as if to say if you’re a gay parent you will raise a gay child which has never been proven. . .  but we still have millions of conservative Christians who hate gays for no cause other than the bible.

The object of raising children Glenn is to provide them with love not mythology...and certain not something that you can’t prove. But people like you do it anyway.

I don’t have time to answer youat length right now...but hope others respond too. And are you telling us that you are not the Ittius who pretends to be a woman...and uses or used your M.O. in other places on line?

Come on Glenno let it all hang out.

HAHAHA Desperation: the tender trap. 

There you have it ladies and gentlemen!  The poster boy for xianity.  HAHAHAHA :D !!!

It must be nice to be able to consistently and repetetively mock other’s losses all the while hurling insults when you’re so “stable”.  HAHA

That makes me laugh. :D

Frank and SNED and anyone else that has an interest –

If you wish to bring this up again, SNED, then you should at least provide a fair depiction of what really happened. Let me be clear here. I am not a sociopath...I am not sick in any way. I have a solid marriage and three happy, well-adjusted grown-up children. I am an Electrical Engineer and have been gainfully employed for about 30 years now. I have never been arrested and have received one traffic ticket in 37 years. I probably don’t fit your (or anybody else’s) stereotype of someone with a mental disorder of any type. I am a Christian…I would not consider myself to be a good Christian. I sin and I sin regularly. I am not proud of that, but acknowledge it. I love those around me, contribute to the local food bank and help my aged Mother with her bills. I don’t say these things to claim I am a great individual…only to say that I am a responsible American citizen. I am a conservative. I don’t like the fact that we are in two wars, but I understand why we are there. I love my Country and I regularly correspond with the loved ones of troops that have given their lives in defense of our freedoms. I believe that belief in God and admiration for scientific endeavor and achievement are not mutually exclusive.

Now to the point...I understand what Glenno meant when he suggested that IF God exists, and IF God is a loving God, and IF God is all-knowing, and IF our stay on this celestial globe is only an instant when compared with eternity’s duration, then PERHAPS allowing children to be taken from parents who will rob them of their eternal life because they will influence them to such an extent that they reject the God and Creator of this Universe is in fact, an act of love.

The Word of God is very clear when it says that God will not be mocked. If atheists believe that they can mock God and not suffer the consequences, then I suggest that they are incorrect. When Glenno proposed these possibilities, he was scorned as hateful and sociopathic. There was, however, no offerings as to whether his thought had any possibility of being true. So there you have it.

I am sorry for SNED, Annie, Simpleman and many of the others. They have very little joy in their lives. I am sorry for their tragedies. There is still time for them. I am not their judge and for that, I am thankful. They can look around them and see that God exists. They know that God exists…there is a reason why they continue to resist acknowledging the fact.

Lastly…it doesn’t really matter if I am Glenno, or Frank, or not, does it? If that WERE so, it would of course not change any of what I have said above. Of course, Frank, you know that I am not Frank. SNED, please note the fact that this post is multiple paragraphs and isn’t answering questions with questions.

Frank…

I proved that Ittirus was Glenno some time ago. . . beyond a shadow of a doubt.
And we had Glenno thrown off this site and he came back as a a mispelling of Glenno, and finally Ittirus....which was such a bizare name that I googled it and found a woman, with the same MO as Glenno, asking sleazy questions etc.

Glenno seldom writes beyond a paragraph or two. And always answers a question with a question, or goes off track.

Your’e the exact opposite. But there are many similarities. FYI Glenno thought that Annie’s loss of her children was justified because Annie was an atheist. It was sick then as it is sick now.

Glenno never bothered me Frank. He knows nothing about me. He does disturb me, because he is sick. But he has an infatuation with Annie that shows how sick he is. And again he bring up her children. Annie was right. Only Annie’s loss has been discussed. The rest of us have not discussed our kids, although I have personally contacted Annie about my children.

Your statement about women was no where near as grey as you just stated. You said they were good for one reason. It was black and white. You are judged by what you say.

And I believe we (atheists) are all progressives here...for we have no book that teaches hate to run our lives. I see no anti groups of anyone here. We are liberal.

I didn’t say your were Glenno, but you have Glenno like tendencies.  I hope you’re not Glenno.

But I at this point I see no reason why you stay here either..just as an observation.

SNED,

You are right! “I have often thought that Glenno and Frank were one and the same.”

I had thought that before myself, but not to the degree that you did.  You’re dead on.  They also defend one another even though they claim to be of opposing religions.  Both also can’t stop insulting and then complaining about my “potty mouth”. HAHAHA I give a fuck. :D They both feel the need to puff out their chest regarding their scientific prowess--which is yet to be seen.

And yes, I knew irritatus was glenno.  Of course.  He’s a sociopath with nothing better to do. He sides with Frank for companionship because we blew xianity out of the water for him long ago.  He is still here stewing. So why not just switch to your alter-ego..Islam?  ahaha That’s kind of sad when concidered what has been contributed by these two.  haha And it’s kind of funny!  But in a pitiful way--even though I giggled...it is sickeningly pitiful.  I come here to learn; instead I get attacked by two poodles who can’t let go of “their juicy female bone”.  How completely primitive!  haha

Thanks, I needed that reminder. You are right.  If they are not the same, they are conjoined at the hip.

RE:  THE SNED, November 22 at 1:14 pm

“And then there’s Frank admitting that he can’t deal with women”

You are wrong. I have no issues with women in general as a member of the lighter sex. My issues are with truth as fact and truth as truth. When women use deception to gain their goals, I disapprove. When men or those in between, use deception to gain their goals, I disapprove. I have no issue with sex, whether auto-erotic, homo-erotic, or hetero-erotic. I have no issue with any human being. We all have equal value in this existence. We all contribute in our own way to progress, either deliberately or accidentally. Some of us serve well as ‘bad examples’. I have gained my most useful information from the errors of others, as well as of my own commission. If I had never been in error, I could never have anything to correct. It is the corrections that work wonders in progress. Those who stick with tradition, ritual, dogma, superstition, flat earth theories, and only what their parents taught them, make no progress, but do serve as ‘bad examples’ for the rest of us. If you can pity the man who stands still and never progresses, think of those who go backward. Conservatives are needed, progressives are essential, but backward people are a drag.

There are a few backwards, and some conservatives, but few real progressives in this dig turned forum. The person writing under the nom de Internet, Ittirus, is a conservative trying to justify progress. Bless him, even if he is the alter ego of a ‘Glenno’ as claimed by The Sned. The Sned even had me tagged as a ‘Glenno’. I do not remember a Glenno here, but he/she must have really tugged hard on The Sned’s chain. I Googled Glenno and only got The Sned in the list of returns.  ????? When I Google my own name and the nom d’ Internet I use elsewhere, I get no Glenno. When I limit it to Truthdig Glenno, I get The Sned.

Everyone is needed, even the trouble makers and the potty mouths. They give us the reasons to clean up our language, including syntax, logic, and vocabulary.

What does this even mean?
‘Someone has mommy issues.’

Please explain, or is this just more of your drivel?
We could speak about ‘mommy’ issues, if that is what you are really wanting.

Annie, you know that Ittirus is Glenno....and he admitted it within the last months or s when he referred to an unanswered question from many months back which could have only dealt with the loss of your children and nothing else. His rely was in direct response to my claim that he was Glenno.

In fact I reported this bastard months ago to no avail. We have agreed that he is a sociopath, and he will not change and hasn’t. What is odd is that Glenno takes Frank’s side in spite of Frank condemning all the myths of Christianity to which Glenno claims to adhere. Which means that Glenno is so desperate to relate to anyone that his claimed beliefs are as bogus as he is. I have often thought that Glenno and Frank were one and the same.

It doesn’t take too much brain power to write the convoluted theory that Frank puts forth...again and again and again. But Glenno has tough time putting together any response of length, but in many cases Frank and Glenno are much the same person. They pout, they insult, then promise to leave and come back apologize and do it all over again and again....and more importantly they target you more than the rest of us. And then there’s Frank admitting that he can’t deal with women, and that they are good for one thing,

I think it’s time for all of us to take leave of both of these people no matter what they say. Like I said..why Frank stays here is beyond me. But he has as much admitted to being as incapable of forming any relationship with women as Glenno obviously has.

I would also suggest that if Glenno and Frank are two different people that they leave and form their own group.

Annie...Glenno is a creep. As my wife taught me years ago, no one one can make you feel anything . . . unless you permit it. Don’t permit it. He is not worth one of your breaths.

Glenno died a long time ago. He is a low life that can’t get any lower. Let’s all once and for all take leave of him and if Frank has any respect for himself he will leave too as a courtesy...for he has taught us nothing, and admitted to much that make him equally incapable of respecting women.

The one thing that atheists don’t seem to do....is hate. And these two men hate...and we don’t need them here.

SNED, GreenSnake, Simpleman?  Have any of you ever talked about your children or “relationships”? Even Mike has never been specific about said “relationships”.  The comment stands and shows great “xian courage” from a man who is afraid of female fortitude against his fairytale god...as well he should be. 

Someone has mommy issues. 

Comments for everyone…
1) Annie is jumping to conclusions
2) Yes, the quantum mechanics WAS a reference to a statement that Annie made
3) Several people have discussed their children
4) There is no EVIDENCE for ANYONE to conclude that I was speaking to Annie when I was speaking about children...wasn’t I speaking about RELATIONSHIPS immediately prior to that? I was speaking to THE BOARD.
5) Annie...you are welcome to leave this forum anytime you wish. You know it’s kind of like the liberal argument about the filth on TV. They just say, “You don’t need to watch it.” Well...you can choose to not return to this forum.
6) Everyone has an equal say on this forum. It’s called free speech, so you can cease your whining about trying to censor my freedom of speech, like you do every time someone makes you look bad. Grow up, whiner…
7) Please stop with the cursing. It doesn’t become a woman.

Frank,

Maybe you are right, and maybe we are all wrong and Mohammed really flew into the sun on a winged horse with Calculus book in hand.  However, this statement from the poster below is a direct and cruel barb aimed at me because of the deaths of my children that has almost destroyed me: “They have many failed relationships, they let their children down (some much more than others). Some claim to hope to dive into quantum mechanics and yet probably have no idea what a ‘spring constant’ is.”

It can ONLY be aimed at myself since no one here has ever spoken on their children and their desire for extra schooling in quantum physics--which I have but don’t honestly understand--with or without a god.

If you can stomache this without reporting him for this barbaric statement, then you must be like him and there’s nothing more for me to learn here.

The same goes for everyone.  Report this creep. Please.  He needs to go.  Thank you.

Frank...consider taking some advice. You may very well be correct in things you say. Most of these people won’t give an inch. They may not always be right, but they are NEVER wrong. They are non-conformists. They have no respect for people more wise than themselves. They have no respect for tradition. They claim to rely upon science, but have no firm basis to comprehend it. They are failures in life. They have many failed relationships, they let their children down (some much more than others). Some claim to hope to dive into quantum mechanics and yet probably have no idea what a ‘spring constant’ is. It would be funny if not for the fact that they will bring many down with them. I won’t be one of them and they can’t stand it. They will never have what I have and they can’t stand it. Just like they cannot stand you. They will cuss at you and try to make you feel intellectually inferior, but we know what is really going on here. I say, let them continue to pump themselves. I find it laughable.

Truth is a concept.
There is no such thing as a concept.
The universe doesn’t care for our definitions of anything that is, much less what we imagine.

Our own logic systems can’t explain the appearance of a god, and your reasoning is no better than the most conservative of right wing Christianity. Making something up from a concept doesn’t mean it is.

When are you going to get it that we don’t get it. That you’re wasting you end moments with a bunch of people you think are morons and idiots.

That also says a lot about you.  You’re here on your own time...and have gained barely an inch in a mile walk over the months. It’s a losing cause.

Now you’re going to hold up you badges from college years 60 years ago and tell us how brilliant you are?

PLease.

RE: GreenSnake, November 21 at 5:35 a

“If you look at any statement in a standard calculus text, you will find that nothing is left to the imagination.”

Thank you. My Calculus I and II were graded A. Top for understanding and top for differentiation and integration. Rigorous needs no definition beyond your own lessons in Calculus. I use the standard understanding of rigorous as applied to math and logic. Funk & Wagnalls: rigorous, (def 2) Logically accurate; strict; exact.

Truth covers what is and what is not. Rigorous—no exceptions. Strict, exact and accurate. The logic was covered in a previous discussion in detail a logic professor would love. Been there, done that, got a shirt.

Well that was real specific Frank. You are a great teacher.

then again

Maybe not.

Bye

RE: THE SNED, November 21 at 5:20 am

You still have both feet stuck in the mud of the lower truth value. You reveal that even when you can admit that truth rules over all that is true, you escape to your trivial pursuit of the mundane world for substantial support. It is a quagmire of contradictions and error. Your opinion is respected as a human right, but your math and logic are in question. The examples are deficient.

“That is, it is not true that truth does not exist, therefore true that it does. You want truth to apply only to physical events. I recognize that truth value applies to matters of fact, events, and certainties. I say Truth is over all that it true.” --Frank

GreenSnake: In all of this you have never given us a rigorous definition of what you mean by “truth.” Without a rigorous definition of “truth,” you cannot do other than stir muddy waters.  Rigorous thinking cannot begin until the key terms are carefully defined, until such statements as above are written so that they are exact and clear in what they say. Mathematics and science are so successful precisely because they are very clear in their terminology. If you look at any statement in a standard calculus text, you will find that nothing is left to the imagination. Rigor is the difference between amateur sleuthing and Sherlock Holms, between wandering aimlessly and serious navigation, between an ancient’s understanding of matter and quantum mechanics.

“Perhaps the origin of all time is the living moment with everything determined at that moment. If the moment is moving in time, it gives the illusion of a beginning at some distant past time.”

Time is a measurement too, invented for our convenience. If there is no time there is no beginning or end. (big bang or not) Which makes the ultimate sense to me. So, as you point out, the begiining of time is an illusion, or a delusion.

“ I say Truth is over all that it true.”
That is true...but they can be one and the same.

In order to reach the truth you might have to have many things that are true. It was his gun, his fingerprints, the insurance policy he took out on her life. He was in the area based on the gasoline receipt, and he was having an affair. We have concluded that these things are true. Therefore it is true that he is guilty....or we have discovered the truth. He is guilty.

One can also use the truth to mislead. There is an ad running for a room heater that makes this claim in the headline. “As heard on the Paul Harvey Show”......(followed by statement about the heater).

It is probably true that it was heard on the Paul Harvey show. It was not true that Paul Harvey said it, but that is what the sponsor wants you to believe.

It is true because the company took out an ad on the Paul Harvey show that contained the product statement heard.

And what is the value “true” or” truth” of knowing that there was a rock, is a rock or might be a rock or always was a rock?  Or better yet which of these can we prove to a + is true?

RE: Simpleman, November 20 at 8:41 am

“Are you trying to confuse me?  It will never be false that once something has a truth value of +1 it will forever be a fact.  I was alive all day yesterday, so it will always be true that I was alive yesterday.  Your Truth encompasses that, and so do I.”

Note that I never said nor claimed that any real fact, event, or thing did not exist though I say that when truth value is -, nothing exists. But, if nothing exists, that is a statement with truth value. Either it is not true, or it is true. I wonder if truth value has no truth value even if true?

If anything will be tomorrow, there is truth value in the statement that something will be tomorrow. Either the truth value is + or the truth value is -. If it is not true that something will be tomorrow, it is true that nothing will exist tomorrow. If you mean does what exists tomorrow have existence today, I would agree that it would be confusing unless I say that my house will certainly exist tomorrow. Even with the disclaimer that it may burn, blow up, or somehow cease to be a house, I am certain that all the material of which my house is made, and the land upon which it stands will exist tomorrow. So in the space of a few hours little changes. What I said is that a million years from now it will still be true that I sat and wrote this comment today. I also said that anything in the destiny of tomorrow or a million years is true, whatever it is to be whether destined at some primordial beginning of time, or a moment before the event.

Perhaps we have it all wrong. Perhaps the origin of all time is the living moment with everything determined at that moment. If the moment is moving in time, it gives the illusion of a beginning at some distant past time.

I think you get my point that there is an overriding quality of truth whether it determines anything or not. I include a negative event as an event with positive truth value. I even include truth as something. That is, it is not true that truth does not exist, therefore true that it does. You want truth to apply only to physical events. I recognize that truth value applies to matters of fact, events, and certainties. I say Truth is over all that it true.

Now, we can all say there is no God, but only Truth. I’ll buy that. I am convinced that Truth is not God, because there is no God, only Truth. I now agree with all of you. Thank you for bringing me to my senses and to convince me that I am wrong.

Now, if anyone has lingering doubts, please examine everything you know for truth value. I will be doing that for a while. Since I have an accumulation of 80 years of living, it may take a while to check every fact I know.

I love you all. We have cussed and dissed enough.

F: Just what construction of the meaning of time would you have to be convinced that at some future time it will be false that you existed for one day on this date? Perhaps you could construct a concept of time that says that you for certain do not exist now. I can understand that you may question later particular events without pre-destination, but after the fact, how is it that it could be true that it never happened?

Are you trying to confuse me?  It will never be false that once something has a truth value of +1 it will forever be a fact.  I was alive all day yesterday, so it will always be true that I was alive yesterday.  Your Truth encompasses that, and so do I.

Frank “Displeasure from women is the price of the fleeting pleasure we receive occasionally from women.”

That sentence speaks volumes about you and your god.

At least at the end of this discussion you reveal something about yourself that is truly sad for one your age… an inability to communicate with half the population of the world.

Nice put down on half of god’s creatures. . . here for one purpose..to give men like you occasional pleasure?  I can almost guarantee that the feelings weren’t mutual.

What a narrow minded self centered misogynistic statement. You and Glenno must be joined at the hip. . . and it speaks volumes about what’s true for you.

You belong with all those right wing Christian creationists....."women should serve men....etc” What good company for you. Please go find them , join them, converse with them and hate with them. After all they believe too! Though they would probably spend far far far less time trying to understand you than the people did here. Try it. Measure the results and report back.

Just who do you relate to anyway?  Anyone?  Oh yes… there’s Glenno Terrific. Stick with him.

“My time with Frank has not been a total waste; I have attained a much clearer concept of “truth.” What it is not is a personalized stand-in for a deity, though one may speak poetically of it in that sense as does the Bible.”

I agree with that. Jesus is the “way, TRUTH and Life”...same thing.

True to form, ittirus displays his infantile nature! Some people have personalities that are arrested in childhood. Is anyone actually speaking to that moron?  I have no intention of wasting valuable time trying to instruct a petulant child who has no desire to learn.  At least Frank has some real smarts, only he is mainly hung up on semantics for whatever personal or religious reasons.  My time with Frank has not been a total waste; I have attained a much clearer concept of “truth.” What it is not is a personalized stand-in for a deity, though one may speak poetically of it in that sense as does the Bible.  Rather, truth can be thought of as a measurement indicating how well statements fit reality.  Since a comparison is involved, truth cannot stand alone in metaphysical isolation.  Truth may alternately be viewed as a quality attached to all true statements in the same sense that “roundness” is attached to all round objects.  In either case, “truth” has no independent existence and certainly does not rule (except in a poetic sense); it describes.  So, that’s my conclusion.  Each of you will have your own conclusions.  Truth, in another sense, is an exploration--not an arrival.

Frank:
“Even in the absence of predetermination, it was predicted that you would revert to your old habits.”

And what old habits are those?  And don’t dare bring cursing into it because you’ve done it yourself.  As for predetermination, weren’t you going to cease and desist...several times?? How transparent you are.

I have no use for your comments anymore.  You don’t know me, so don’t condescend to try and psycho-analyze me in a post to someone else.  If you want to know something--ask ME!  You’re not fooling me here, bud.  You were sharp shooting me.  Knock it off and maybe I will extend you the same FUCKING courtesy--just as I have been.

RE: Annie Reitano, November 19 at 8:22 am

Even in the absence of predetermination, it was predicted that you would revert to your old habits. Sorry you misread the comment and believe it to be a dig or an insult. It was intended to promote your view for consideration. You have been hounding me to supply an answer to your question to your satisfaction. I have answered it from every angle I can imagine. Yet you are not satisfied. That alone presents as a matter to be addressed for discussion. I would rather not venture into that thicket of trivia, but perhaps someone else could rise to the bait.

You remind me of other problem women in my life struggles to please the opposite sex. They range from my grandmothers, mother, sisters, girl cousins, nieces, grand daughters, aunts, ladies-in-law, and ladies-out-law. I have a hard time pleasing the ladies as much as some of them have pleased me. Displeasure from women is the price of the fleeting pleasure we receive occasionally from women. Thanks for the memories, even if truth as God does not matter to you.

RE: Simpleman, November 19 at 8:45 am

Just what construction of the meaning of time would you have to be convinced that at some future time it will be false that you existed for one day on this date? Perhaps you could construct a concept of time that says that you for certain do not exist now. I can understand that you may question later particular events without pre-destination, but after the fact, how is it that it could be true that it never happened?

Future events are more difficult, because it is harder to be convinced that identifiable events would happen in the future. What about events that happened today. When in the past was it false that they would happen? Perhaps before the big bang or before you were born. That is the difference between Truth and particular things true. For instance, I can predict with absolute accuracy that one million years from now 2 + 2 = 4 and that 8 - 1 = 7 to a very accurate degree. I can even say with certainty that 2 + 2 = 4 was true before human beings learned to count, or even before any organism existed.

I cannot tell you if I will be alive tomorrow, but if I die before midnight, it was true all day that I would not be alive tomorrow. In fact it was true last year and all the years of my life that I would not be alive tomorrow, if I die before midnight today. I will be around to remind you if I am still alive, but if, indeed, I do die before midnight today, I will not be able to tell you that I told you so. I can predict that with good accuracy. Study the subjunctive and the conditional statements in English grammar. Logic deals with both subjunctive and conditional ‘facts’. There is even a different verb form for the subjunctive mode. Logic deals accurately with it in the conditional argument. Even without predetermination, it is true that whatever will be will be. Even without certainty of knowledge, whatever is true is true, including historic fact, present event, or future event. Once it becomes a past event, it is history, whether accurately reported or edited out of the books.

Does it matter, as somebody in this discussion asks, who has warned me not to use his/her name? Not likely and in a few billion years all history books will probably have turned to dust and digital memory faded. Even paleontologists of another sapient species from another planet or galaxy may have difficulty deciphering records of today after a billion years. That will have no bearing on the truth of the event, recorded or not.

Only the truth of the matter matters to me now.

Frank...LOL...by all means, throw the dig directly at Annie so she can prove what a tough person she is. The god of this exchange board has spoken, so you had better pay heed to her wishes.

GreenSnake...your measurement scheme is lame. Truth is both a continuous variable and a discrete variable. Thanks for clearing that up. You can’t possibly believe that truth is a measurement of a statement’s ‘fitness’. Let’s try that...SNED and GreenSnake are morons as evidenced by their statements relative to truth. My measurement of that is +1.  WOW, maybe you two ARE on to something there.

Frank’s god deals with truths that have a true value of +1.  If he sees a rock, it is therefore true that it exists in its present shape and form.  He further claims that it has always been true that the