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DIG DIRECTOR
Chris Hedges, the former Middle East Bureau chief for The New York Times, is a senior fellow at The Nation Institute.
Hedges has fifteen years of experience reporting from war zones in the Persian Gulf, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Colombia, the West Bank and Gaza, Sudan, Yemen, Algeria, the Punjab, Bosnia and Kosovo. In 2002, he shared a Pulitzer Prize for The New York Times' coverage of global terrorism. He is the author of the bestseller "War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning."
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Israel’s Barrier to PeaceA Dig led by Chris Hedges(Page 3) I traveled along the completed parts of the barrier for 10 days. It is being built in sections. When I go into and out of the West Bank, often passing through multiple Israeli checkpoints, it takes three or four hours. The northern sections were completed in July 2003, although the Israeli Defense Ministry was still razing houses and fields along the barrier in the north for a buffer zone when I visited. Bulldozers, trucks and backhoes belch diesel smoke and lumber across the landscape. Where there is no barrier there is often a wide dirt track being graded and smoothed for construction. On either side of the emerging barrier are the dynamited remains of markets or homes and the blackened stumps of destroyed olive groves. It is one of the most ambitious construction projects ever undertaken by the state, certainly one of the most costly. The small town of Mas’ha lies in the path of the barrier. It has been in decline since the start of the uprising three years ago when Israel blocked the road leading from the town to Tel Aviv. The closure ended the businesses of the dozens of fruit and vegetable sellers who lined the road with shops and markets. The closure trapped most Palestinians inside the West Bank and because of this the barrier for Israelis is an abstraction. It does not slice through any Israeli land. It does not change Israeli life. It only solidifies the status quo. The Baddya Market on either side of the small asphalt road is empty, the tin-roofed sheds and warehouses that once had piles of fruits and vegetables for sale abandoned. The town’s population has fallen from 7,000 to 2,000 since the closure of the road. I stand on top of one of the two dirt mounds that block the road to Tel Aviv. There is an army base on a hilltop in front of me. There is an electric fence that runs around a settlement a hundred yards up the road on my left. Two green Israeli army jeeps lie parked at an angle blocking the road a few feet beyond the second mound. The two dirt mounds and strip of empty road between them are filled with old cardboard boxes, broken bottles, empty wooden vegetable crates, cans, plastic Coke bottles, tires, shredded remnants of plastic bags, a broken chair and the twisted remains of a child’s stroller. A young boy is loading three cardboard boxes into a shopping cart. An elderly woman, standing on the mound a few feet from me, is helping him. When the cart is full the boy begins to push it to the other mound about 50 feet away. The woman follows. When they get to the other side he lifts out the boxes for her. She drops a silver shekel in his hand for payment. He goes back to the other mound to wait. He does this all day. It is the only way goods move up and down this road. I walk into a small shed where a man is seated at a table. The shelves around him are bare. He has two boxes of tomatoes in front of him. There are cold drinks in a large refrigerated case with glass doors. A single light bulb hangs from a wire, casting a soft hue over the gray stubble on his face. Fat, languid flies buzz nosily. It is the only sound I hear. I ask him if he will speak to me. There is a long silence. “Why?” he finally says. “It won’t do any good.” I walk up the road, over the two mounds, and turn left to go up through the opening in a post fence with loops of barbed wire. A rainbow flag flies from a post planted in the ground along the fence. The dirt in the yard is pitted and gouged with tread marks from heavy earth-moving equipment. I hear the squelch, grunts and guttural moans of engines at work. I cannot see the machinery. The sky is clear, that searing crystal-like clearness that makes the light of the Middle East unforgiving and overpowering. There are tarps in the yard in front of the house. Under the tarps are a collection of dirty mattresses and foam pads. Piled around the mattresses are backpacks, some with tickets from European airlines. A blue backpack has a tag with the letters SAS. There are plastic water coolers under the tarp. There are plastic cups scattered on the ground. Several young men and women, many in baggy cotton pants and sandals, lounge on the mattresses speaking quietly. Some are asleep. I go to the door of the house. Munira Ibrahim Amer, who lives there, takes me upstairs to the flat roof where laundry is hanging and there is a large water tank. The heat on the roof is withering. I edge my way under a narrow eave to capture some shade. A young woman with short blond hair and glasses holds a video camera. She is wearing a green T-shirt and green cargo pants. She has a small pouch strapped around her waist. She says her name is Maria. She says she does not want to give me her last name. “Thousands of us have been denied entry visas by the Israelis at the airport,” she says with what I suspect is a German accent. “Many of us who get picked up are deported. If I give you my name I will be on their blacklist. They will not let me in. They will put a ‘No Entry’ stamp in my passport.” She has been in and out of Palestine, she says, for over a year. She was one of the first internationals to get into the Jenin refugee camp after the Israeli attack against armed militants that left scores dead and sections of the camp destroyed. “I could not breathe because of the smell of the dead bodies,” she says. “I saw children collect body parts of their parents. None of us could eat. It was terrible. And the world stood by and did nothing.” She was an Islamic studies major. She speaks Arabic. She became involved in protests in Italy against the occupation. She joined a group called International Women’s Peace Service, which sends activists to protest the construction of what it terms “the apartheid wall.” She lives in a house with other activists in the Palestinian village of Haras. She has been in and out of the West Bank and Gaza for over a year, surviving on the meager funds given to her by the organization. The activists surround the house when the bulldozer, belching smoke and groaning, lumbers through the yard on the way to grade the track on the hill below. Three activists chain themselves to a shed next to the house when they think the bulldozer might turn to attack. The shed next to the house, the family has been told, is about to be destroyed. When Maria speaks of the bulldozer it is as if it is a living object, some Leviathan rising out of the bowels of the earth to swallow up Palestine. “When we do an action it is beautiful,” she says. “It is what life is about, living together, not fighting simply for our own happiness. The real pursuit of happiness is not about making me happy. It is about living together and sharing.” There is something wistful in this, as if she knows much of human sadness, which I later find out she does. Activists, like aid workers and foreign correspondents and soldiers, are often orphans running away from home. I was one. They seek new families and new reasons to live, often messianic reasons that are intense enough to blot out the past and keep the darker clouds of memory at bay. She wears a piece of silver jewelry around her neck. It comes from India. “I put my fingers around it and hold it when I am scared,” she says, wrapping her fingers over it. “I have grown superstitious. I risked my life more than once last year. I understand why Palestinians believe in God. When you feel your own impotence in the face of Sharon and the United States you have to believe in something bigger. It is the only way to survive. I don’t believe in God. I believe in this.” There is the sudden roar and screech of army jeeps. A dozen Israeli soldiers pile out of the vehicles in helmets and flak jackets. They spread out along the road, facing the activists, who now are rousted from their mattresses. Three men grab the chains and run for the shed. The soldiers cradle black M-16 assault rifles. “Oh hell,” she says quickly, pushing the start button on her camera and pointing down at the scene below us, “and another jeep is coming. I have to call the media office and alert them.” The ragged band of 45 activists spread out in the yard. The soldiers watch, silent, bemused, the way a child watches a line of ants he is about to crush. In a few moments the soldiers depart. The activists wait in the sun for a few minutes and then go back under the tarps. Maria joins them from the roof. They begin to discuss tactics. Someone proposes singing “Give Peace a Chance” if the soldiers come again. Another suggests building a small model of a Palestinian village in the path of the bulldozer. They begin a heated discussion over what to write on their banners. When people agree, rather than clap, they raise their arms and flutter their fingers. A member of the group suggests they write condemnations of the wall uttered by world leaders including President Bush. The mention of the American president raises the temperature of the debate. “I don’t agree that we put phrases by George Bush on our banners,” says a woman with an Israeli accent. “George Bush don’t fucking care about this, about anything. I really hate this man. I don’t want any fucking thing he said on any action I participate in.” There is a sea of fluttering fingers. I admire their commitment but find them too sanctimonious, infected with the fanatic’s zeal that they know what is good for you, good for everyone. Their anger springs, in part, from the fact that no one will listen, as well as the damage, the damage many I suspect nurse internally and wish to heal. I go into the house and sit with the family. The family lives surrounded by the madness. The bulldozer severed the water pipe to the house. They have spent the last few weeks carrying water into the house in plastic buckets. The children have turned one side of the house into an outdoor toilet. It sinks of human feces. Munira Ibrahim Amer and her husband, Hani, have four boys and two girls. They scamper around the room, often shouting to be heard above the noise of the heavy machinery busily tearing up the earth outside. I feel I am in an Ionesco play. “I spent 10 years working in Saudi Arabia to buy this land and start our nursery,” says Hani. “In a few hours the Israelis bulldozed my greenhouses and my plants into the ground.” The family moved into the house in 1981. They made a decent living. They had many Israeli customers. They grew things. “A year ago army jeeps appeared in the village and scattered leaflets around the mosque,” he says. “Soldiers came to our house. They told us our house was in the way of the fence and would be demolished. They said they would compensate us.” But he does not believe them. He says the Israelis determine the worth of the land and property and he says other Palestinians tell him the Israelis usually never pay. “They will build their wall and they will take revenge on me and my family for allowing these internationals to protect us. They will demolish my home.” It is dusk. I leave. The activists, fearing a demolition, sleep under the tarps. I speak with Maria the next morning by phone. She tells me her real name. It is Maren Karlitzky. She is German. She reveals her name because she is sitting with the other activists in a police station in the Jewish settlement of Ariel. The Israelis have taken her passport. She is under arrest. She tells me that at 7 a.m. about a hundred soldiers surrounded the house. They pushed the activists onto buses. The activists watched the bulldozer demolish the shed. The group was kept awake all night. Everyone was questioned. “When I was called in for questioning they told me I could stay [in Israel] if I collaborated with them,” she says. “I refused.” At 4 in the morning the police presented the group with typed Hebrew statements and told the activists to sign them. The statements said that none of them would again enter the West Bank or attempt to renew their visas. They signed the papers. “It was a mistake,” Maren said. “We were tired.” I ask her what she will do next. “Guess,” she says.
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By Tony Wicher, May 18 at 9:08 am #
This must be an international effort where the whole world takes responsibility, including Arab countries. This effort must be led by the U.S. I agree that the U.S. responsibility is the greatest, greater even than Israel’s, because the U.S. is the most powerful and without U.S. support Israel would never be able to do what it has been doing. Although Obama has made his commitment to Israeli security very clear, I am counting on him for an even-handed approach based on human rights and international law to lead the world to peace.
Report thisBy JSD, May 17 at 1:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
The solution to injustice against the palestilnian Arabs has to involve the U.S. As I have written so many times before, the first and most important goal is to guarantee and end to the violence. I believe that this can only be accomplished by an international peace-keeping force, and should be paid for entirely by the U.S. because it has been U.S. support for Israel and acquiescence in Israeli violence that has caused so much suffering among both Israelis and Arabs.
After this start, a serious effort by the world community can begin to look for a permanent solution to all relevant problems facing these peoples, inasmuch as they have not been able to solve their poblems themselves.
U.S. involvement is mandated because of our responsibility for the consequences of supporting Israel with so little reservation. The U.S. is therefore as much responsible for the suffering of these peoples as are the Israelis.
Report thisBy ed_tru_lib, January 20 at 4:46 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Well I see the only responses are from the nutcase Israel-haters/anti-semites, as usual, which instantly belies any unlikely validity they might otherwise have had. The wall works because it has been made harder to kill innocent Israelis, and thus are innocent (or even not so innocent) “palestinians” also spared when Israel just doesn’t need to punish the evildoers since they were prevented from doing evil. 1drees and Frank Goebelles Sr. will never have anything constructive to add to this or I strongly suspect, any rational discussion of any issue. Anyway someday there will be no need for the wall-the haters and murderers and pseudo-religious maniacs will be gone and Israel and her law-abiding neighbors will live in the peace that has been all Israel has wanted since its creation.
Report thisBy Barry, November 11, 2007 at 3:31 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I bet about 1500 times more criminals have been subdued by police than police have been subdued by criminals. Does that mean that police are wrong to go after criminals?
Israel withdrew from Gaza and had agreed to withdraw from the West Bank, and the Palestinians showed them that they couldn’t live side-by-side peacefully.
Israel made a mistake occupying the West Bank and Gaza, and has spent the past 15 years trying to give them back. If the Palestinians would just take them peacefully, everyone would be a lot happier.
Report thisBy neutral ned, November 10, 2007 at 8:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
For Ed Tru Lib
#62541 by ed_tru_lib
Being that I’ve decided this stuff in the region will never end, I’ll just offer a few observations. Israel, a potentially massive economic center of activity in the Middle East is wasting its energies. As for Ed’s thoughts on the necessity of Israel’s aggressive 60 year policy, my info is that appr. 1500 Palestinians have been killed for every one Israeli. Using the term terrorist makes no sense in this context. The sophistication of Palestinian warfare is such that it took them till the late 1990’s (saw some article back then) to figure out that their homes were being audio monitored and cars of the leadership radio-tagged to make them easy pickings for helicopter attack. Ed may believe what he’s saying but, to the outside observer, the occupation seems like a waste of everyone’s time.
Report thisBy 1drees, September 18, 2007 at 10:50 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Israel and peace should never even be in the same sentence, these two things are that far apart. And similarly Zionism or Zionists and Truth should never be in the same sentence either.
Report thisIsrael and Zionist just want to gobble everything up and kill everything.
MOSSAD motto is “WAR BY DECEPTION” then eg it was practically observed by the attack on USS LIBERTY which almost resulted in Nuking of Cairo, so so much for the people who claim Israel is “nice” and “civil”, its just that they are Zionists who were brainwashed by their moms into believing that crap and their moms beat that into them. this is a brainwash that is threatenning World preace and Humanity.
BOYCOTT EVEYTHING ISRAELI AND BOYCOTT EVEYTHIGN ZIONIST. SAVE HUMANITY & WORK FOR WORLD PEACE.
To all Americans the name Rachel Corrie might ring a bell and indicate the civility and normalness of the Zionistic agendas. the day most american people wake up there might be another exodus of Zionists again and i pity them that even after 4000 years of idioices they still havent learn how to get along with people and they stil havent learnt to give up on their stupid ideas of robbing people and trying to get away with lies. even after time and time again of punishment and banishments from so many lands.
God’s Israel was destroyed by God’s approval as the people that he had once chosen had started faulting on massive scale and its a pity that disease still lives on and not only that mom’s preach it to their kids and beat that cheating sense into them.
By Spinoza, May 10, 2007 at 9:16 pm #
Just wanted to post this in case any one is stopping by:
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Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., April 6, 2007 at 7:47 pm #
Re: #62541 by ed_tru_lib on 4/06
That may well be true that a barrier to peace could also keep out a few fanatics bent upon killing a few innocents by blowing themselves up in market places. It hardly proves the need for such a barrier or that it significantly contributes to peace and cooperation with the people who were dispossessed by the Zionist thugs in 1948. Unfortunately the barrier does not stop the helicopters, F16’s and gangs of IDF thugs bent upon blowing up Palestinian homes and killing the children in their homes and the streets of Occupied Palestine. Bravo! Cowards can now rest peacefully while the Palestinian starve.
The barrier remains as a block to peaceful cooperation in the formation of single state where all can live in peace, equality, and freedom of worship. Palestinians long ago invited the peaceful return of Jews to Palestine. Zionist did not come in peace, but to ‘cleanse’ Palestine of Palestinians so that Jews could live in their ghetto state with UN sanctioned violations of human rights, Geneva conventions, and other acts against the Palestinians who stayed and face the music.
All walls eventually come down, not in peace, but from failure of purpose. The purpose of the Barrier is to assure a ghetto state for Jews. As though they did not learn their lesson in Europe where ghettos were created by Jews to protect their own identity and to protect Christians from the need to administer normal civic affairs of Jews. Ghettos did not work in Europe any more than American ghettos work to keep black people isolated from their white brothers and sisters. The experiment of a ghetto state of Jews alone with nobody to bother them while the quarrel and fight with each other will not work either. History will surely wipe out the cancer on the human race or this species will become extinct.
Report thisBy ed_tru_lib, April 6, 2007 at 2:30 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Well its been a few months now, and what a surprise-far fewer Israelis or Arabs are being killed, there are far less instances of religious-crazed terrorists/oil & military industry puppets trying to sneak in to Israel to blow people up...AND...Israel hasn’t had to retaliate against such attacks...AKA...SURE LOOKS LIKE THE WALL IS WORKING. I guess that’s why theres been such a loss of apparent interest in posting to this dig-things have just gotten too peaceful.
But the same rules always apply-all the terrorists and their supporters, as ever, have to do is lay down their rifles, rocket-launchers,suicide body-bombs, flight plans (into buildings) etc etc, and the Israelis will lay down their weapons, and soon after, when some trust has finally been established, tear down the wall. For now, and tragically the foreseeable future the wall must continue to be like the Colt 45 once had to be in the old west, when the evildoers just wouldn’t listen to any reason-the “peacemaker”
Report thisBy Barry, February 9, 2007 at 1:00 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Great point Bert! I don’t see many San Diego residents screaming to take down the wall with Mexico, or Columbia students/faculty pushing to take down the wall that closes off Columbia from Harlem.
Report thisBy Bert, February 8, 2007 at 6:15 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think good fences DO make good neighbors, I think borders have a purpose, and while there might be people that scream bloody murder about it all, at the end of the day, when there’s 2 countries that don’t get along, or there’s big cultural differences, or a big difference between them in terms of income or level of technological progress/religious stuff, borders are a necessary evil to keep people from going at it against each other. Like 2 kids in the same house that squabble, ‘go to your room’ still has merit, both macro, and microscale. This story is about Israel and Palestine, but the concept is pretty universal. Take care of the borders, and a lot of other problems will resolve themselves.
Report thisBy gasman, December 21, 2006 at 1:32 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Oops...looks like I accidentally signed on to a KKK website. What a bunch of racist losers. Spend more time on blogs: I’m sure you feel like you’re a real contributor to society.
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., December 5, 2006 at 6:35 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #40827 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 12/05
Sorry, this was intended for another site.
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., December 5, 2006 at 6:57 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
(Continuation of previous comment)
You can purchase your oil needs from anyone who has it to sell. For that, you can export products needed by those who have too much oil, but not enough oranges and high definition TV. You can manufacture automobiles rather than machine guns to sell to people who need transportation more than they need to defend themselves from rabid humans who invade their land. When most Jews get used to living with others, they can join the United Nations with the promise to abide by all UN resolutions.
The best way to fight against any threat to destroy Israel is to prove by peaceful means that Judaphobia is unjustified. And do not mistake defense of Islam, as Judaphobia. Also, do not mistake US resolve for imperialism unless we promote the idea that our president is the ‘leader of the free world’. If America proclaims or claims to be the ‘only remaining superpower’, put her in her place in the United Nations and make her behave in a civilized world of peaceful intent. Don’t give up an inch of Israel to Russia, Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. Let all the Palestinians come home to help defend that land from all encroachments by militants and violent Zionist regimes. Let us join in the condemnation of Fascism, Nazism, totalitarianism wherever it is found.
Then, we shall surely enjoy peace and prosperity ever after.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 25, 2006 at 8:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #39266 by Robert on 11/22 at 9:21 am
Report thisBy Fadel Abdallah, November 25, 2006 at 4:13 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
To the enlightened individuals on TruthDig Blog, please check the hard facts on Zionism as presented by Alen Heart in his new two-volume book, “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews,” on the Web Site: OpposingDigitsVlog
Manchester, England. 2nd November 2006. Alan Hart speaks at a public meeting of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). He speaks about his two volume book “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews”.
The original venue, St Peter’s Chaplaincy, informed PSC that it was unwilling to host the meeting–2 days before the event–despite the fact that the booking had been paid for many weeks in advance. Anticipating this, the PSC booked a reserve venue–the Friends Meeting House.
This is the first of four 10 minute clips of Hart’s opening presentation.
Alan Hart, a young 63, has been engaged with events in the Middle East and their global consequences and terrifying implications - the possibility of a Clash of Civilisations, Judeo-Christian v Islamic, and, along the way, another great turning against the Jews - for nearly 40 years: * As a correspondent for ITN’s News At Ten and the BBC’s Panorama programme (covering wars and conflicts wherever they were taking place in the world). * As a researcher and author. (His first book Arafat, Terrorist or Peacemaker? was published by Sidgwick & Jackson in 1984 and subsequently in several updated editions over a decade). * As a participant at leadership level, working to a Security Council background briefing, in the covert diplomacy of the search for peace.
Alan Hart thus brings to the pages of his latest book, Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews, and to the debating chamber, a deep understanding of why, really, the Countdown to Armageddon is on and how it can be stopped.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 24, 2006 at 6:03 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
“Reply to Comment #39159 by Robert on 11/21 at 6:12 pm
Chris Hedges: Bring Down that Wall.
FYI, Chris Hedges has a new report, “Bring Down that Wall”, on truthdig.com, posted November 20, 2006.
It already has a forum / discussion. “
Thanks, Robert. I’ll post there - Tony.
Report thisBy Robert, November 22, 2006 at 9:21 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Guess where “Ken Schreier” who exited this forum is at these days?
He has surfaced at Chris Hedges: “Bring Down That Wall” report forum. He is spewing the same ole line of, you guessed it, “anti-semitism” and that high moral route.
Report thisBy Spinoza, November 21, 2006 at 6:35 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
There is a connection between sex and war.
http://www.redefiningseduction.com/
Report thisBy Robert, November 21, 2006 at 6:12 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Chris Hedges: Bring Down that Wall.
FYI, Chris Hedges has a new report, “Bring Down that Wall”, on truthdig.com, posted November 20, 2006.
It already has a forum / discussion.
Report thisBy yours truly, November 21, 2006 at 1:04 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
When a revolution comes it’s as if time is compressed, with changes that previously might have taken centuries, instead occurring seemingly at the blink of an eye. And at the time always unexpected, as in Eastern Europe two decades ago.
Which is why “we got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative” (from a popular song fifty or so years ago), or we’ll miss the boat on the Kucinich bill to cut off all spending on the Iraq war. True, up to now, we’ve always been out-foxed by the powers that be &/or sold-out by our so-called leaders. But doesn’t have to be so, because we (each and every one of us, that is) make sure that Congress passes Kucinich’s bill and we’ll be into one of those accelerated phases of history, with TROOPS OUT NOW at the top of our agenda, followed by Congress impeaching our president plus his subsequent trial at the International Court of Criminal Justice for his crimes against humanity. And after that? Empire collapses. And then? It’ll be up to us.
Afterwards, of course, there’ll be the usual, “Who would have thought?
.
Report thisBy Spinoza, November 21, 2006 at 7:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I don’t know exactly about energy forces but that can have a psychic effect.
Zeitgeist refers to the “climate of the times”, “the buzz in the air” the intellectual climate, the main idea, the idea that ideas matter. Sex is part of that climate and one of the most positive feelings and ideas that motivate mankind. Pleasant sex is most always associated with peace. Rape is most always associated with war.
Report thisBy Spinoza, November 21, 2006 at 7:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
> THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO NEED TO WAKE UP!
The Jewish People need to wake up. We are being manipulated by severe right wing forces.
Fight Fascism
Report thisBy Robert, November 20, 2006 at 6:44 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Frank,
I am an American, living in North Carolina, who had worked in the Middle-East about 12 years ago.
I have visited the Holy Land and have seen with my own eyes some of what the Palestinians have to endure with Israel’s brutal occupation.
It was only after reading “They Dare To Speak Out” by former congressman Paul Findley, that I began to understand why our U.S. policy & most of our elected representatives support Israel’s brutal policies in the Middle-East.
ITS AIPAC CONTROL & MANIPULATION OF CONGRESS WITH DECISIONS WITH RESPECT TO ISRAEL & MID-EAST.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE IN THE DARK WITH RESPECT TO AIPAC & OUR MAINSTREAM NEWS MEDIA.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO NEED TO WAKE UP!
Report thisBy Spinoza, November 20, 2006 at 3:00 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
There is a need to rethink left and right.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15685.htm
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 2:44 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply to Comment #38979 by Spinoza on 11/20 at 11:15 am
I checked out the Global Orgasm web site. Spinoza, you surprise me! You really believe in such a global energy field. Oh, how unscientific of you! This is some sort of childish superstition. Some sort of psychic nonsense. Now no one will take you seriously. Except me, I guess. I find the paradigm of a field of mental or conscious energy that blankets the globe and is powered by the individual brains of all humans on the planet - indeed, by every organism on the planet - to be most useful. This natural field which has always been there is greatly magnified and intensified by the Internet. Information is flying all over the place from one mind to another. We can use this theory to spread our idea of the secular multi-ethnic democracy in the Holy Land. Now that I know I am dealing with a fellow “mystic”, I will continue to post elements of this theory. I think what Global Orgasm is doing can be developed much further. I dare to hope that we can really make a difference this way.
Report thisBy Donald Tilley, November 20, 2006 at 1:08 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I just wanted to voice a word of support for Tony Wicher’s idea of declaring a “hudna” until both Palestinians and Israel’s can seriously consider the one, multi-ethnic, secular state solution.
Building a wall is certainly not the right, long-term approach. It didn’t work in Berlin, it won’t work along the U.S. Mexico border, and it won’t work in Israel. Instead of building walls, both sides should be building bridges of mutual understanding and respect. This wall is an ugly scar on the Holy Land, and, in my option, is an affront to all three Abrahamic religions.
Report thisBy Spinoza, November 20, 2006 at 11:15 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
This is a very good idea. Change the zeitgeist
http://globalorgasm.org/
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 9:58 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply to Comment #38938 by Kwagmyre on 11/20 at 8:25 am
My current location in time and space is:
640 E 4th St.
Ontario, California 91764
Phone: (909) 988-9530
email: twicher at speakeasy dot net
Feel free to contact me any time.
Kwaggy, we live only a short drive apart. Perhaps we will meet in person some time. You sound like my kind of Jew. Do you and your cousin ever do Thanksgiving as well as Jewish holidays? I have my Thanksgiving every year with a huge family of secular Jewish-Americans and it’s our biggest holiday of the year. In any case, next time you sit down with your cousin, it would be a most interesting and valuable experiment to see if you could discuss the subject at the dinner table in a full and honest way without acrimony but as two people who really love each other as they love the whole world and its people. What matters most is that there be deep communication between you, and that you depart with love.
Report thisBy Kwagmyre, November 20, 2006 at 8:25 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Posted by Frank, #38873:
“I am American living in Florida. Could each of us give a general geographic identity without danger to our person? I sense that we are from widely different national origins.”
I’m a native of L.A.,Calif., Jewish(but non-religious like many are), live in the San Fernando Valley section and mentioned earlier that only in recent years did I become progressively enlightened about the true state of affairs in Israel. Apparently I kept hearing how Israel “had stolen” territory from the Palestinians from so many sources, all of them credible I might add. But I have a religious cousin, we’re on close terms(in fact the closest among the cousins I have on that side of the family) lives nearby, and when she invites me over for such occasions as the Passover or Rosh Hashonah, the subject of Israel doesn’t come up for the most part. I often fantasize about how I’d “confront” her if we ever DID get into a serious discussion about this, but in the interests of maintaining some semblance of family unity we most likely would have an amicable exchange I’d hope.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 8:06 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
(continuation of previous post)
Lieberman’s defection would appeal to Bush as one of those middle-
Report thisfinger masterstrokes Jr. is so fond of, since it would postpone the
day of reckoning for his Iraq policy and also poke a finger in the
eye of his meddling father. So I would expect that Joe is on the
receiving end of some serious surreptitious wooing from the White
House.
However, with the voters disgusted with Republican management of the
war, uniformed military desperate for an exit strategy, and the Bush
41 crowd moving toward domination of the Iraq process within the
executive branch, I wonder if Lieberman will find opportunities for
his brand of sanctimonious obstructionism.
If he switches to the GOP caucus and forms an alliance with McCain
to prolong the Iraq war, might the realist crowd around Bush I, in
the ultimate irony, engineer the switch of a moderate Republican
senator to the Dem side, to keep the dead-ender neo-cons from
driving—or at least gridlocking—the Iraq disengagement?
That would put a smile on my face.
By Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 8:04 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Here’s an interesting post about the U.S. political situation right now. Lieberman certainly is in a key postion, unfortunately. If only he could be convinced that Israelis would really be a whole lot better off if they adopted our one multi-ethnic democracy policy! Then it would be adopted with bipartisan support. Of course, this would require a miracle of God!
Joe Lieberman is smiling.
Why?
The Iraq Study Group appears to be ascendant. Iran and Syria are no
longer considered to be our biggest problems. Iraq, once hailed as
our greatest victory and proudest moment, is our biggest problem now.
Rumsfeld is out and Gates is in. Gates is an ISGer with a history of
engagement with Iran going back to Iran-Contra and, more recently,
talk-to-Teheran wonkishness.
World aggravation with Israel’s shenanigans in Gaza got an anti-
Israel resolution to the Security Council. John Bolton had to veto
it.
Tony Blair came out in favor of dialogue with Syria and Iran.
The subtext of all this activity is that the “Clean Break” vision
for the Middle East—the idea that America could achieve a foreign
policy triumph in the Middle East by tilting toward Israel and
eradicating hostile regimes in Baghdad, Damascus, and Teheran—is
in a shambles.
No wonder Ehud Olmert jetted to Washington to make sure that
Israel’s tough-guy policies in the Middle East—everything from
brutal police actions in Gaza to attacks on Hamas in Palestine to
preparations for another Lebanon incursion to calls to punish Syria
to threats to bomb Iran’s nuclear program (that is quite a list,
isn’t it?)—would not become collateral damage in Washington’s
anxiety to make nice with Syria and Iran to give our troops the
pretext and breathing space to get out of Iraq.
I doubt he found much of the way in reassurance in Washington. The
right-wing Jerusalem Post laid out the situation in grim detail.
Meeting with the Lame Duck in Chief generated the usual rhetoric
directed at Iran, but does Bush really call the shots anymore?
Dick Cheney, the power behind the throne, appears to be in retreat,
his efforts to rescue John Bolton—and the whole unilateralist, US-
led security agenda Bolton promotes in the UN—coming to naught.
The only pro-Israel force that came out of the mid-term catastrophe
strengthened was Joe Lieberman, by virtue of his control of the
swing vote in the Democratic caucus that could bring the Senate and
its committees back to a fifty-fifty deadlock—broken by Cheney.
I have a feeling that Lieberman’s self-identification as the paragon
of independence, courage, and rectitude comes from his belief that
he is Israel’s protector in Congress.
That—and supporting the Iraq war as an instrument of regional re-
engineering and Israeli security--is more important to him than
loyalty to his party and keeping faith with the millions of
Democrats who supported his basically crappy campaign for Vice
President.
Lieberman’s public utterances calling for more troops to go to Iraq
so we can win the darn thing reflect not denial but desperation.
Pumping more troops into Iraq doesn’t improve the chances of victory
there. It simply postpones acknowledgement of defeat, removes
pressure to demand concessions of Israel, and keeps the pot boiling
in the Middle East until something miraculous happens—or an
attack can be ginned up against Iran to put our Middle East policy
back firmly on a war footing.
Lieberman may think that he can control the pace and direction of US
policy in the Middle East by threatening to caucus with the
Republicans if the Democrats push for a withdrawal that he considers
too precipitate, or one that sacrifices Israel’s security interests
and policies in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon to extortionate
demands by Iran and Syria.
(continued)
Report thisBy Spinoza, November 19, 2006 at 9:18 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I signed the petition
Lewis Beyman
---------------------------------
I recommend the following:
----------------------------------
EMPATHY
http://opposingdigits.com/vlog/?p=999
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., November 19, 2006 at 7:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To all who supported justice and peace with honor and human rights. I am among those who see a one democratic secular state as the answer. It seems that those of us who challenged the idea of Zionism as the cause of the disruption of the lives of all the people in the Middle East, have at least for the time being in this comment space, which has turned into a kind of a forum on Palestine, have driven off the dogs.
It has made me wonder who we are individually. Where do we call home? I have seen minor differences in our approach, but no major barrier to peace in our responses. I am American living in Florida. Could each of us give a general geographic identity without danger to our person? I sense that we are from widely different national origins. It shows that the world could come together in peace after all. That was the promise of the United States in its inception and it was the promise of the United Nations in its inception. The world does tend to approach the ideal of democratic justice for all over time. I wonder why it takes so long.
Robert Kennedy said, “I see things as they are and wonder why. I dream of things as they could be and wonder why not.” I have lived to see descendants of former African slaves gain equal rights with all other Americans under law, though not in personal experience. I have seen women move up the ladders of success. I have seen civil rights gains over all of America in my lifetime. I have seen the rise of Jews to safety and security where anti-Semitism ruled only 50 to 60 years ago. I have seen the arrival of people from all over the world until America is truly a multi-cultural nation with civil rights for all.
We have a setback now with the rise of George Bush to challenge American values, but he too will pass. There is a strong movement to return to the values we had prior to 9/11. The day of practical Zionism to get the Jews out of Europe and America by giving them a ghetto state of their own is over. There is no more talk of sending the ‘Negros’ back to Africa. And no talk of driving the Native Americans back to their reservations. This is one nation with diversity and justice for all. Thank you all. If this fizzles out for lack of opposition, we have all won. Please place one more comment telling where you are home.
Report thisBy Kwagmyre, November 19, 2006 at 10:09 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I wrote in post #38641:
“It points to just how tall an order it will be to change the thinking of those who would already seem most disposed to a change of heart or attitude on Israel/Palestine.”
So to put my money where my mouth is, I later emailed Nancy Pelosi and recommended she read “One Country” so she might acquire a more balanced view on the Israel/Palestine issue.
We’ll see if she follows through. I ain’t holding my breath though.
Report thisBy Fadel Abdallah, November 19, 2006 at 8:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
To all the Noble Warriors for Peace with Justice for the Palestinians on this forum,, please consider signing the following petition so we can become part of a larger movement.
==============================================
Palestinians are the Priority: an open statement of commitment to the Palestinian Solidarity Cause
Posted: 18 Nov 2006 07:09 AM CST
There are individuals within the Palestinian solidarity movement seeking to create divisions by:
deliberately shifting focus away from Israel’s war crimes and its supremacist Zionist ideology;
imposing unilateral agendas by presenting both sides as victims;
sabotaging service to the just cause of the Palestinian people;
ignoring the issue of right of return for the Palestinians;
utilising the platform of the Palestinian discourse to argue about anti-Semitism, which is not a Palestinian problem and not created by Arabs.
Our primary and single concern is solidarity with the Palestinian people.
As ethical human beings we consider it our obligation to:
do all we can to allow the information to be diffused as widely and as quickly as possible;
ensure the argument of the oppression and disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people stays in the forefront;
present as clear and honest a picture as possible of the meaning of Zionism and the Jewish State;
to cross the divide and to unite in our war against the Zionist crime.
We accept and believe in equality of all persons, regardless of their race, religion, political or other orientation. We believe that full and unconditional support of the Palestinian people is a condition sine qua non for activists to adopt, and we recognise that their attachment to their homeland is a fundamental and unalterable condition. To that end we advocate for one unified State with equal rights for all its citizens.
Any attempts at censoring reasoned critique of Israel and Zionism must be refused a priori, as it is in conflict with the goal of seeking to protect and support the Palestinian people - as their empowerment is the only way to peaceful coexistence for all the populations of the Middle East. Any attempts at dictating what the Palestinians should do will be looked upon with great circumspection and suspicion. Palestinians themselves wish to construct their own future and are not pawns to be shifted on the chessboard.
We demand free speech for sincere critics of Zionism and call for an end to campaigns created in order to ostracise its most vocal critics. Smear campaigns will not be tolerated, as we recognise that they are the instrument of choice of Zionists, and detract energy from our work. We will not hesitate to expose the instrumental usage of them, no matter the claimed principles of those who are engaged in creating such campaigns. On the other hand, open dialogue and reasoned argumentation is welcome and greatly encouraged as a tool to understanding and collaboration.
The indigenous people of Palestine are facing extermination by the hands of the Jewish State, and the world keeps silent. The sooner we draw public attention to Israel’s needless wanton destruction, the sooner we can do away with this horrifying, insufferable situation.
PLEASE, sign the petition if you share our concerns.
Report thishttp://www.petitiononline.com/grosveno/petition.html
By Robert, November 19, 2006 at 6:27 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Swedish Human Rights worker viciously attacked by Israeli settlers.
They were confronted by 100 settlers in small groups, who started chanting in Hebrew “We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!”
Take a look at the horrifying bloody pictures & read the details of how brutal Zionism really is among the settlers & IDF.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=687
Report thisBy Geronimo, November 18, 2006 at 9:46 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hmm, downstream now nearly four months plus a thousand comments from where “Isreal’s Barrier To Peace” started its truthdig run, seems there not only are no more postings from supporters of the Jewish settler-state Israel, but that instead those of us still hanging around on this thread all see justice for the Palestinian people (along with TROOPS OUT NOW) as the key to peace on earth and goodwill to all living beings. And what’s more, that it’s up to us.
Report thisBy Kwagmyre, November 18, 2006 at 8:53 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Posted by Robert #38660:
“Frank, Tony, Kwag, Justice4all, Fadel, Geronimo & others, your hardwork, efforts, integrity & focus during this journey defending the TRUTH, FAIRNESS, JUSTICE, HUMAN RIGHTS, UN CHARTER, INTERNATIONAL LAW, PEACE & Equality to all MANKIND is to be commended.
I am honored to be amongst you & to be on your side. The side of TRUTH, JUSTICE & PEACE for ALL.”
Rob.........
Speaking for myself and the rest, I can assure you it’s mutual. Our strength lies not just in numbers here but in getting out the necessary message in this forum and however we can do it so that it progressively resonates with more and more people.
Report thisBy Robert, November 17, 2006 at 6:41 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Greetings to all!!!
Frank, Tony, Kwag, Justice4all, Fadel, Geronimo & others, your hardwork, efforts, integrity & focus during this journey defending the TRUTH, FAIRNESS, JUSTICE, HUMAN RIGHTS, UN CHARTER, INTERNATIONAL LAW, PEACE & Equality to all MANKIND is to be commended.
I am honored to be amongst you & to be on your side. The side of TRUTH, JUSTICE & PEACE for ALL.
Here is an interesting piece of news coming out of Scotland.
“Israeli ambassador visit to Scotland cancelled in face of planned protests - We will protest every visit by Israeli state agents to Scotland.”
Here is the link:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=682
Report thisBy Kwagmyre, November 17, 2006 at 4:20 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Posted by Tony #38489:
“This has to be the one. How do we get to them? How do we put a bug in the ear of leading Democrats?”
Tony.........
I’m with ya 100% on this. But I read only yesterday that Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean and at least a few other Democrats have disassociated themselves from ex-Pres. Jimmy Carter since the latter has just now come out with a book on Israel’s Apartheid policies. Also, I was so “smitten” by Barack Obama until I read in “One Country” that he too hasn’t been so sympathetic with the Palestinians cause.
It points to just how tall an order it will be to change the thinking of those who would already seem most disposed to a change of heart or attitude on Israel/Palestine.
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., November 17, 2006 at 2:41 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To all of you who remain glued to this site, Salaam.
To Ken (Comment #38254 by Ken Schreier on 11/15)if he is still with us, Salaam. I do not know if we influenced you for the better, but you certainly filled a need as Kwagmyre says. (Comment #38323 by Kwagmyre on 11/16)
I feel that you all complemented me in presenting my theme of peace and justice for all. That includes Ken and other Zionist oriented respondents who did not seem to understand that this is not against Jews in a state on the land of Palestine. It is not even against the name being called Israel. It is and was always for a state for all people who wish to call it their promised land, homeland, holy land, or home. The challenge was to adhere to the principles of the United Nations Charter and the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.
We aroused Ken et al when we undertook to ridicule the notion of Zionism as it applies to that land in violation of those principles. I also rejected an Islamic or a Christian state there as I would reject similar religious interference in secular affairs in my own nation, even when it is the religion I have chosen to represent my relationship with God.
Any state is a system to recognize and to regulate the relationships among human beings and their environment. By incorporating common concepts of decency and respect for the person of human beings, I believe that we serve God, our Creator and Sustainer. With God’s help, we redeem ourselves with honor to our fellow citizens of the world and to God. Peace! Wa aleikum salaam.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 17, 2006 at 1:32 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Further Reply to Comment #38535 by Jack Clegg on 11/17 at 8:44 am
So, what is so radical about the idea of a multi-ethnic, secular, American-style democracy in the Holy Land? I mean, how mainstream can you get? Properly explained, the great majority of the country would get behind it. It’s so all-American, there would be bipartisan support - like the civil rights movement of the 60’s in the heyday of the Democratic party. If somebody could buttonhole Bill Clinton and propose it to him, I just know he would go for it.
But the idea seems so radical that most people would not seriously consider it. Why is this? Well, it is radical because it is inconsistent with the existence of Israel in its current political form. It is inconsistent with the concept of “Jewish self-defense” which is the founding idea of Israel, unfortunately. This idea is that Jews should live in a majority Jewish state and be defended by a Jewish army. This idea, understandable given the Holocaust, cannot be the basis for a modern state.
At this point, Zionism is deservedly in the worst disrepute world-wide of its whole disreputable existence. The whole world hates them, as well they should. Their only ally is lying phony Bush, who has been exposed to the whole world, even the American people, as beneath contempt. Why in the world should a new Democratic administration support them? The U.S. need oil. Israel does not have any. So the only use Israel has is as an ally to take over Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. and control the Middle East oil supply. So when the Democrats get in will they continue the Republican policy, which has also, unfortunately, been a bipartisan policy under Democrats and Republicans for more than 50 years? If they do, God help us. We’re probably doomed. But on the other hand, Democrats could become a real peace party. They may conclude that attacking Iran, etc. and continuing the military alliance with Israel are not the way to go. I do believe that is the natural inclination of the Clintons (both of them) Barak Obama, and other leading Democrats. Maybe they have already thought of this idea of supporting a one multiethnic democracy solution instead of a two-state solution. If not, somebody has to explain it to them. We have to get this message out now, because with the change in power the political situation is fluid and it is the time for new ideas.
If the U.S. adopts this policy, the whole world will support it. Seeing this, I believe the Israeli people would throw out their own phony lying murdering bastards and elect some leaders who would negotiate a real peace based on real justice and equality.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 17, 2006 at 1:25 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply to Comment #38535 by Jack Clegg on 11/17 at 8:44 am
You said:
“As long as America is seen as the supporting structure for Israel, the Arab states and their people will never see America as a friend but will see us as the enemy.”
The U.S./Israeli alliance in its current form is a devil’s bargain, like some marriages. It brings out the worst in both. They encourage each other in their moral depravity, and in the end they pull each other down to destruction. This is a generation of vipers, both here and there. They are both hypocrites, lying phonies using each other.
So what shall we do? Here’s the idea that has come to me and others independently, and which we are trying to spread: a secular, multi-ethnic democracy in the Holy Land. I prefer to put it this way, rather than call it “Israel” because everything, including the name of the place and its flag, would be up for negotiations. Whatever is necessary to achieve peace and justice should be done. To change a stupid flag or a stupid name is nothing by comparison. I favor a written constitution, which Israel does not have at this time. This would be written by a consitutional congress made up from representatives of all religions and ethnicities. The first principles written into it would be guarantees of nondiscrimination on the basis of religion, ethnicity, gender, etc, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and above all, the separation of church and state. You know, like we have here in the good old USA. You know, the reason that lying phony Bush has been claiming he attacked Iraq - to spread “freedom and democracy” while the same lying phony Bush does everything possible to undermine freedom and democracy both here at home and all over the world. Oh yes, and lying phony Bush also says he did this to protect our “noble ally” “the only democracy in the Middle East”, Israel, whose leaders like Netanyahu, Olmert, etc. are another bunch of lying phony murdering bastards.
But now, at long last, the tide is turning. I would not say they have woken up, but the American people have at least been slighly disturbed in their slumber. They put in the Democrats, hoping at least for something better than Bush. Democrats do have at least some sense and are somewhat more competent and less corrupt, but they have very little balls. They want a new idea, but they are also typical political cowards who are afraid to really lead the country. They always want to take a poll first. It is their worst weakness.
(Continued in next remark - this one is too long)
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., November 17, 2006 at 11:07 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Harris’s article is where we are. This is where we are from. It is the way to where we should be going. Not the one sided or even the multi-sided compromise with values to satisfy selfish and parochial prejudice, but justice as a one size fits all solution. Equal justice is the answer and the solution. Let equal justice be the fact and the political expediency to the resolution of this aching problem.
I take a quote from a longer article:
“Only equality and respect for justice and international law can guarantee peaceful community and are the only guarantors of a permanent and secure existence of the State of Israel and the future State of Palestine – and of the safety of Jews among us and all over the world.
The human rights formulated in the UN Charter and the UN declaration of human rights emerged against the backdrop of Nazi barbarism, in particular the industrialised racial mass murder of Jews, Sinti, Roma, and other minorities. Both documents recognise only the equality of people without exception. That must also apply for the parties to the conflict in the Near East.”
http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=1569&lg=en
Report thisBy Jack Clegg, November 17, 2006 at 8:44 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
As long as America is seen as the supporting structure for Israel, the Arab states and their people will never see America as a friend but will see us as the enemy. Israel doesn’t care one lick about us, but uses us as a supporter, a defender and even a lightening rod. We supply them the weapons. We are always one sided at the UN. We take on their enemies. To the Arab nations, Israel and the U.S. are one. A more even-handed approach could possibly reduce the hate of Islamic fundamentalists towards us and their desire to kill us.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 16, 2006 at 10:36 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply Comment #38323 by Kwagmyre on 11/16 at 9:33 am
Kwag and Justice,
This particular discussion may have died down, but the idea which we have been supporting, vis., a new peace initiative for a multi-ethnic democracy in the Israel, is what must be kept alive and spread. Now is the time for this idea. The Democrats are looking for a new idea. This has to be the one. How do we get to them? How do we put a bug in the ear of leading Democrats? Anybody you know able to buttonhole Bill Clinton for an hour or so? For now, we can keep checking back here in case there are any interesting new posts, and also look around the Truthdig site for other interesting digs and discussions on this or related topics.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 16, 2006 at 10:25 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply to Comment #38254 by Ken Schreier on 11/15 at 6:27 pm
Ken,
Thank you for being a part of this discussion. May we see eye to eye and find peace together.
Tony
Report thisBy Justice4All, November 16, 2006 at 11:55 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #38323 by Kwagmyre
Maybe some can refer us to other challenging forums we can participate in.
Regards.
Report thisBy Justice4All, November 16, 2006 at 10:57 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #38276 by Tony Wicher
My sincere apologies. I guess I did not read it thoroughly.
Best.
Report thisBy Kwagmyre, November 16, 2006 at 9:33 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Well, with Ken now departed, this topic will run out of steam and we’d only have the like minded rational people posting. Don’t know if that’s enough to keep things alive.
If it is coming to an imminent end, just want to say it’s been a pleasure sharing sentiments with the rest.
Kwag
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 16, 2006 at 12:03 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply to Comment #38071 by Justice4All on 11/14 at 8:39 pm
I have not been posting lately because I realized that those psychopaths are not even worth my time. One thing, however, caught my attention in this blatant post by Ken:
“Yes, Kwaggy, in my book God does not play favorites either. That is because we are modern, civililized people. Our religion is more advanced. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who practice a form of Judaism that is perfectly consistent with modern civilization. Those are the Jews that must drag there bretheren into the 21st century. My strategy is for the United States to give them a push.”
Well if you read your post again, you realize that you are nothing but a racist, xenophobic bigot who has no place in a modern civilized world. You and your likes are blinded with bigotry and insularity and should be placed in some sort of a mental institution. Thanks to information technology and the internet because it exposes bigots like you. You cannot hide from yourself anymore!!
Justice4all: I completely agree with your sentiments. However, the quote you attributed to Ken was written by me. What I meant was that you and I, Kwaggy, are modern, civilized people, whatever religion we practice, if any. To us, Joshua was a warlord and what the Jews did to the inhabitants of the land was genocide. But hey, that’s how they did things in those days, I guess. As the human race progresses, their religion and their god become more civilized. Obviously, nowadays no particular people or nation or religion can claim that God is on their side without being a laughingstock. Relgion and its god or gods nowadays belongs to the whole human race. I am just making fun of Ken for being a fundamentalist. I’m just saying that there are plenty of modern, civilized Jews, some religious, some secular, who are not throwbacks or reactionaries, and not in thrall to this pernicious idea of “Jewish self-defense”, and I am expressing the hope that these good people will somehow prevail over their atavistic bretheren. Are we in sync?
-Tony
Report thisBy Ken Schreier, November 15, 2006 at 6:27 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Well Frank Goodman, Sr. - Time for me to leave this discussion !
Report thisI am happy that you are not an atheist and that you have a personal relationship with Hashem !
May Hashem bless you and your family !
May Hashem answer your wish for peace in the world soon !
I also have a personal relationship with Hashem which is far more rewarding then any religion can give me !
May you continue to seek a peace in the Middle East that will not lead to the nations in that region destroying the Jewish people who live there !
Take care,
Sholom my friend !
By Kwagmyre, November 15, 2006 at 1:34 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Posted by Robert #38149:
“Here is a book for you to read written by Norman Finkelstein, “Beyond Chutzpah”: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.”
Well, then that makes two books for Ken to become “enlighted” by. Again I would unequivocally recommend his reading “One Country” so he is presented with this opportunity to conceivably expand his perspective on the situation there.
Report thisBy Robert, November 15, 2006 at 8:40 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: Comment #38068 Ken Schreier on 11/14
“I have given you the pleasure of my insights and I will no longer respond to your foolish comments!”
Hey Ken...the TRUTH has a lasting sting to it when it comes at you from each source & direction.
If you are familiar with Israel’s policy / law regarding Christianity, the comments & facts (#38060) that I placed on this forum yesterday, 11/14/2006 are the TRUTH.
It looks like you deliberately avoided to reply specifically or refute them. Why?
I think that everyone on this forum knows that your refusal to aknowledge & refute my facts directly reflects your position & reply.
Avoiding the TRUTH is a sign of mental weakness...and other mental disorders!!!
Tell the TRUTH if you are capable of it!
If you were an IDF enlistment, you would shoot & kill Palestinian children just simply for throwing stones at their brutal occupiers.
Your statement “I have given you the pleasure of my insights...etc” is a symptom of a Bi-Polar disorder.
Ken...you are a zionist fanatic who would lie compulsively and cry “anti-semitism” to silence the TRUTH about your “terrorist state of Israel.”
Here is a book for you to read written by Norman Finkelstein, “Beyond Chutzpah”: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.
Ken...just keep foaming at the mouth just like you have been on this forum!!!
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., November 15, 2006 at 6:08 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: Comment #38068 by Ken Schreier on 11/14
In your comment to Robert you referred to me as an ‘atheist’. By definition, an atheist is one who does not believe in God. Note that I am not afraid to say God. You are so much in fear of God that you distort the spelling of the name. I suggest that you just refer to God as Hashem. At least it gives a spelling that can be pronounced. It also fulfills your fear of saying God out loud.
When I use the name of the deity, I use a meaningful word, though I have my own relationship with The God Almighty over all that is, was, or ever will be. Truth is God. I suppose if I were afraid of God, I would put it thus: “T___h is G_d.”
I recognize that you have a damn good reason to fear God. As a Jew, you have come under the wrath of God like so many Jews have since they were referred to as the Children of Israel. Children they are. I am an aging parent who has many children, grandchildren and some great grandchildren. Children are children. As a term meaning immature people who need protection from their dangerous inattention to truth and consequences, it fits you perfectly. So, you are one of the Children of Israel. As a term meaning the adult offspring of older and wiser adults, I take it that you are much younger than I.
Take my hand, son, and I will lead you to the throne of God, who is the master of Truth. Zionism is wrong. Killing people to clear them from your path is against the obvious will of God.
As I was growing up, my parents gave me gifts. Gifts on my birthday, gifts on Christmas, gifts just out of the blue to show that they loved me. I did not understand it at the time, that that they bribed me to be good and to deserve the gifts that they gave me. God gave Abraham a gift. It was a promised land. Not a particular land as he lead himself to believe. The land flowing with milk and honey did not exist on the planet. It was a promised land that would be the entire planet if people could learn to live together in cooperation and peace. The burden was placed upon Abraham to bring the promise into being.
Abraham and all his followers searched for the Promised Land which was a land without people for a people without land. Everywhere, he found people. He fought them and tried to kill enough of them to make a Promised Land for himself. He failed each time. The Jews failed to keep the Promised Land after the Exodus. They were so selfish that they were thrown out time and again. Some tried to establish in foreign lands, but could not cooperate with the natives. They were kept in their place or chose to hide in ghettos so that They had only Jews to wake up to each morning. The wrath of God came down on them repeatedly, until the Holocaust. Western civilization decided to make a ghetto state out Palestine and isolate the Jews so that they would not disturb the rest of the civilized world with their holier than us attitude. They went back to the land Abraham tried to conquer many years ago and where Joshua fought the battle of Jerico. Where famine in the land flowing with milk and honey drove them into indentured slavery for several generations in Egypt.
To make a long story short in the interest of the concerns of the censors, uh ‘moderators’. I am not an atheist.
Report thisBy Behemoth101, November 14, 2006 at 11:06 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Like moths to a flame, these Pharisaic Phalanx-niks can’t help but betray their plans by occident!
Desperation has put the backwards neo-Zealot outpost in an ideological pickle - sure it takes power, but does it do so NOT at the expense of the very religion it claims to protect?
Check out my post for the predictable truth we all saw coming - Sinister Semitic Shlock-artists and the Slime they Sell!
Report thisBy Geronimo, November 14, 2006 at 9:29 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
re: Comment #38054 by Qwagmyre
Wishful thinking only if one does nothing to bring this about. Reality the instant one sees to it.
Report thisBy Justice4All, November 14, 2006 at 8:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Forgot to mention that I salute Tony, Frank, Robert, Kwagmyre, Geronimo and Fadel for their perseverance and resilience. Thank you.
All the best!!!
Sorry if I missed anyone.
Report thisBy Justice4All, November 14, 2006 at 8:39 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
It looks like we are stuck with pathetic psychos on this forum. First comes Larry then Barry then this what’s his name … Ken.
I have not been posting lately because I realized that those psychopaths are not even worth my time. One thing, however, caught my attention in this blatant post by Ken:
“Yes, Kwaggy, in my book God does not play favorites either. That is because we are modern, civililized people. Our religion is more advanced. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who practice a form of Judaism that is perfectly consistent with modern civilization. Those are the Jews that must drag there bretheren into the 21st century. My strategy is for the United States to give them a push.”
Well if you read your post again, you realize that you are nothing but a racist, xenophobic bigot who has no place in a modern civilized world. You and your likes are blinded with bigotry and insularity and should be placed in some sort of a mental institution. Thanks to information technology and the internet because it exposes bigots like you. You cannot hide from yourself anymore!!
Report thisBy Ken Schreier, November 14, 2006 at 8:00 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Response to Robert: Comment#38060
Full of hot air are you !
Report thisI think you should consult your leader, Frank Goodman, Sr. before you speak your anti-Jewish garbage and show how ignorant you really are !
You are one of those uneducated jerks who can find nothing to do but bash Jews !
I have given you the pleasure of my insights and I will no longer respond to your foolish comments !
Frank Goodman, SR, is the only atheist I will respond to ! At least he seems to be an intelligent secular person who may be helped by some spiritual awakening !
Take care Robert and get a life !
G-D Bless !
By Robert, November 14, 2006 at 6:48 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: Ken Schreier comment #37898 on 11/13
“It is the holy bible that teaches us to love thy neighbor as thy self!”
“Jews & Christians believe that Judgement day will reveal the truth of the bible’s teachings to the peoples of the earth!”
Oh I see...Ken wants to re-route us & wants to set a new agenda topic on this forum.
Now he wants to talk about Judeo/Christian values. He is trying to take the “high moral” route to improve his cosmetic appeal (his new approach) to the people on this forum.
Ken...if zionist Jews believe in the holy bible & its teachings & that Jews & Christians beliefs are close & similar, then why are the following facts are law / policy in your zionist Jewish state of Israel?
- In Israel a Christian is permitted to preach the gospel in a church building, but for the clergy or anyone to even tell one about the teachings in the Bible outside the church will bring a 5 year prison sentence.
- For a Christian to give a Bible or a religious article or even an act of kindness toward a Jew, such as giving a gift of food, can be interpreted as trying to convert a Jew to Christianity and can bring a 5 year prison sentence.
- It is illegal for a Jewish woman to marry a Christian man or a Jewish man to marry a Christian woman. The marriage is not recognized & its against the law.
Israel is a theocratic state and a democracy for Jews only! Israel has no constitution, but makes and changes it laws for the benefit of Jews only!
Christian & Moslem citizens of Israel are third & fourth class citizens. They do not have the same opportunities and protections as Jews.
Just go & see how they are treated in Tel Aviv airport and other places in Israel. Their humiliations by the Israeli personnel are palpable & sinful.
THE TRUTH MUST BE TOLD. WHEN PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH THEY CAN JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES.
Report thisBy Kwagmyre, November 14, 2006 at 5:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Posted by Geronimo #38009:
“If we really cared about what’s happening in the MIddle East, we’d be seeing to it that a just peace agreement between the Palestinian people and the Jewish settlers is arrived at (& STAT), because then there’ll be no war no more, nowhere, not even one.”
Certainly so, but as long as the likes of Ken dictate the thinking and policies of the Zionists in Israel, I’m afraid that’s only wishful thinking.
Incidentally for anyone who hasn’t already read “One Country” by Ali Abunimah, I heartily recommend. I’m about half way through it now.
This recommendation naturally goes out to Ken as well.
Report thisBy Ken Schreier, November 14, 2006 at 3:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To Frank Goodman & his followers:
Well Frank, I gave you my views in comment#37898.
You have not given any refutation to my analysis that you are an atheist & look at the Holy Bible as some ancient fairy tale !
I guess I was 100% correct !
I just wanted to show 90% of the people of this world what type of individual they are dealing with !
You do not believe in G-d and therefore your views are your own !
Well, the will of G-d does not change, but the will of man changes when it best serves his current and changing needs !
There are no atheists in a fox hole Frank !
I am sure, in the future, when you find yourself in a serious situation you will be asking G-d to help you out !
Stop being a intellectual snob in telling the world that their belief in a Supreme Being is foolish and childish.
Frank, 90% of the people can’t be wrong when it comes to the recognition that there is a G-d who does listen to our prayers and acts on them !
Whether G-d’s answer is yes or no, we believe that in the end it will be for the good !
I rather trust in G-d than in a man !
That is why I cannot agree with your distorted view of the world around you !
You are a G-d unto yourself and guided by your own limited & subjective intellect !
May G-d help show you the way to enlightenment and give you the wisdow to see the difference between good & evil !
Sholom my friend !
Report thisBy Geronimo, November 14, 2006 at 12:33 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
If we really cared about what’s happening in the MIddle East, we’d be seeing to it that a just peace agreement between the Palestinian people and the Jewish settlers is arrived at (& STAT), because then there’ll be no war no more, nowhere, not even one.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, November 13, 2006 at 7:50 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Reply to Comment #37896 by Kwagmyre on 11/13 at 4:34 pm
Kwaggy said: “And yet, as that recent Gay event unequivocally demonstrated, the Ultra-Orthodox are certainly a force to be reckoned with(since they got the parade banned and the event was held at an outdoor sports arena). That’s why many posts ago, I referred to Israel as a theocracy bearing in mind this very influence but didn’t know until it was then pointed out, that Israel is more fundamentally speaking a “secular” state, the Orthodox influence notwithstanding.”
My reply:
Yeah, it’s deceptive, isn’t it? What are these people? That’s what I want to know. I don’t think they know. That’s just the problem. Their identity is confused. Are they secular or are they not? Either way, their position is untenable. If they are an ancient and primitive people, such as Joshua led the first time they marched into the area, slaughtering as they went, and they really believe in all that stuff with the Ark, even to this very day, well, then they are some kind of religious fundamentalists. I’m sure Ken believes every word of it. If I had a time machine I would send him back to Joshua’s time and he could have a fine time slaughtering the innocent inhabitants of the place without a qualm of conscience.
On the other hand, if they are not genuine believers (however fanatical) like Ken or the ultra-orthodox who tried to ban the Gay Pride Parade, then, presumably, they believe in such things as freedom and democracy. They will actually have a little dispute with the ultra-orthodox about this. They pat themselves on the back, thinking they are fighting for democratic values. But then, how can they justify what they have done and are doing, if not by those savage passages in their so-called holy scripture? Sure, if God ordered it, it must be all right. But if you are secular, then what is the justification? It comes down to this: the “Israelites” (secular or not) descended on the land and disposessed the inhabitants, just as it says they did and God ordered them to do in their damned Bible. (Right, Ken?) It was bad enough the first time, but they had to go and do it twice. But at they had a God and Ark and all that. What do these guys have? Nothing. If they are not religious, they are just plain old warlords and imperialists. Might makes right is their only morality. They carved “Israel” out of the Palestinians and they say they have a big army and nuclear weapons and there is nothing Fadel and those Palestinian women can do about it. The first time it was OK. After all, civilization had advanced only so far. But this time, the whole civilized world is looking at you. They do not believe your bogus religious justification.
“But one comment to Ken while I’m posting now. I don’t care how vociferously he rants and raves about the Bible or Torah decrees for Jews and the “promised land” because in my book GOD DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES! So this would also apply to the Islamic fundamentalists invoking Allah to justify terrorist acts as well.”
Yes, Kwaggy, in my book God does not play favorites either. That is because we are modern, civililized people. Our religion is more advanced. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who practice a form of Judaism that is perfectly consistent with modern civilization. Those are the Jews that must drag there bretheren into the 21st century. My strategy is for the United States to give them a push.
Report thisBy Frank Goodman, Sr., November 13, 2006 at 7:25 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: Comment #37811 by Robert on 11/12
Robert, let up on Ken. He is doing our work for us. We cannot possibly appear as credible as he does, when he represents the worst of the advocates for the Apartheid Israel. Keep him stirred up, but don’t drive him away. He is our guard dog. He is the hornet’s nest in the drive way. The mad dog foaming at the mouth.
I used to get my lessons across to my children by giving them a personality as the ‘bad example’. It worked. I nominate Ken as the ‘bad example’. He can show our lesson better than we can. All we have to do is remain decent and accurate. He will distort the accurate and malign the decency of Palestinians.
Report thisBy Robert, November 13, 2006 at 7:04 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
BURNING CONSCIENCE: ISRAELI SORLDIERS SPEAK OUT
Here is a video from Youtube.com; its about Israeli soldiers speaking out about the horrors and destruction that the IDF cause on the Palestinians. These soldiers are telling the truth to their parents, Israelis and the rest of the world regarding what the Israeli army is doing to the Palestinian people, their homes, property, cities, towns, villages...these soldiers could not hold it in any longer. They dared to speak out and tell the truth about Israel’s IDF policy of bloody murders of Palestinian civilians & other crimes.
Ken....you can watch this video too. Tell us if these IDF soldiers are telling the TRUTH OR NOT !!!
Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
Report thisBy Ken Schreier, November 13, 2006 at 4:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To Frank Goodman, Sr.
Re# Your comment #37848
“ Bring it on”, how childish Frank !
You know what is the real problem with your view, & that of your friends on this site,you do not believe in the bible that Moses and the prophets handed down from generation to generation !
You look at it as some made up fairy tales !
The real problem is that you don’t believe in the taking of the Israelites out of Egypt or the giving of the commandments in the desert or the giving of the land of Canaan by the ONE AND ONLY G-D to the children of Israel !
That is the real problem Frank !
I have not heard from you or your friends that there is a G-d who actually can decide what to do with the Earth he/she created.
I have heard about politics, democracy, rights, etc, but not about G-d !
Think about it and see how foolish you all are.
Do you actually discount the truth of the Holy Bible ?
Do you not know that the United States was actually brought into existence for the purpose of freely being able to pray to G-d as you want ?Do you not know that the fathers of this country were religious people who believed in a supreme being ? Read the Declaration