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DIG DIRECTOR

The Rev. Madison Shockley
The Rev. Madison Shockley is a minister of the United Church of Christ in Carlsbad, Calif. and a regular commentator on religion, race, politics and popular culture....










 

Jesus: The Man, the Myth

(Page 3)

Conclusion

So, is there a meaningful way to speak of “Jesus Christ”? There probably is not. To speak of Jesus is to continue the “quest,” to continue to draw out implications for who this man was. To speak of (the) Christ is to assert a faith that can be defined (in historical fashion) according to the needs of one’s own constituency. Traditional Christians will continue to live quietly in their personalized religion with their forgiving Christ, who absolves them of sin, promises them heaven when they die and motivates them to pious behavior until that day. Liberal Christians will continue to ignore the more miraculous elements of the Bible and of Jesus’ story but maintain their embrace of the Israelite prophetic tradition and the social justice implications of Jesus’ teaching and preaching. The real battle will be between the fundamentalist Christians on the right and the progressive Christians on the left.

Fundamentalism has a voracious evangelical appetite. It is not enough that its adherents be convinced themselves that they are correct; they must convince the world to believe the same way as they do. Not only must they convince the world, they must transform the world, and those that oppose their transformation are no less than evil incarnate because they are opposing the true will of God (as it has been revealed to fundamentalists). Traditional, liberal and even progressive elements in the religion don’t even have an oar in the water when it comes to resisting the overwhelming current that is fundamentalism. This is true in Islam as well as in Christianity.

Progressive Christianity is beginning to fight back. The Westar Institute (sponsor of the Jesus Seminar), the Center for Progressive Christianity and dozens of regional “progressive” Christian movements are starting to speak loudly and forcefully, from the pulpit and in the media,  against what they see as dangerous distortions of the meaning and message of Jesus by the fundamentalists. Progressive Christianity, grounded in an intellectually rigorous study of the historical Jesus, committed to a vision of social, economic and political democracy, radically open to all varieties of religious expression (more than one path up the mountain to God) and understanding the need to build strong communities of faith, is beginning to make its mark in many parts of the United States, Canada, the UK and Australia in particular.

The truth about Jesus will continue to be the fulcrum that each side seeks to leverage against the other. This dig will continue to monitor and map that struggle as this new dispensation of the “religion wars” comes into full view.

1   2   3
Dig last updated on Dec. 20, 2005


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Dig Director's Blog

Apr. 12, 2006

Hallelujah! Easter is almost here. Aren’t you glad? What’s that low sigh I hear? Ohhhhh that’s right, you’re one of those progressive Christians. Easter is probably the most conflicted time of the year among progressive churches, even more so than Christmas. Even a progressive Christian can reasonably assert that Jesus was really born, even as the debate goes on among others about how he was born. But this is not so with Easter. Either he was resurrected or he was not. And when we say he was not, then someone somewhere will quote I Corinthians 15:12 to us, “Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?”

- - -
Dec. 22, 2005

Shockley addresses reader comments regarding the historical Jesus and representations of “the Christ.”

- - -
Dec. 21, 2005

The culture wars have clearly gotten out of hand when the front line is Christmas.

- - -
 
 
 

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By Johnny, February 3, 2007 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie:

Get off your high horse !

Hussein was pure evil. He was no longer a human being but a vicious monster who got what he deserved.
Justice was his removal from society and death was the action necessary for a person who willingly murdered other people without remorse.
Hussein served no useful further purpose to society and could have only continued to cause death & hate even if imprisioned for the rest of his life.
I see no conflict here with “Love One Another”.
In fact, by his removal, justice was served for the tens of thousands he murdered and those they left behind.
You don’t seem to comprehend that there is a real fight between the forces of good and evil in this life.
This is not some fairy tale. This is the raw truth.
Society must know that cold blooded murder is unacceptable and the price you pay for doing it is the loss of your life.
It is liberal pacifism that has allowed evil men to think that they can get away with things in this world.
That is how a Hitler took power in 1933.
He wrote, Mein Kampf, years prior to his taking power in Germany in 1933. It outlined his view of Jews and his goal of world domination. Once he came to power he should have been assassinated but was not. The German people loved him and the world was too foolish not to assassinate him.
England & Russia tried to make peace treaties with this power mad lunatic which only showed him how afraid they were.
Hitler signed them with England & Russia and then attacked them anyway.
If he had been assassinated, probably 50,000,000 people would not have died from the Second World War he started in 1939.
Yes, to “Love One Another” sometimes means to eliminate those who are murdering people or plan to cause mass murder.
President Roosevelt & Prime Minister Churchill knew that the Nazis were murdering Jews in concentration camps and did nothing about it.
To stand idly by while your brother’s blood is being shed is a morally wrong action. 
Being a Pacifist, regardless of the cause being fought for, is a criminal wrong too. It is something that must be overcome if justice and peace is going to be achieved in this world.
Think hard about that.

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By Johnny, February 3, 2007 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie:

You think religion and God are the same, not so.
Religion is the invention of man on how to obtain the favor of God and earn rewards for his obedience. That is pagan belief.
God is the intelligence that created all that is.
Based on modern day Jewish perception, God needs no sacrifices or worship from humans, only that they help their fellow humans in time of distress.
I was born a Jew. I am still a Jew. I will always be a Jew to the day I die. This is of course what the man Jesus was too. It is Christianity that made the Jewish man Yahoshua a god figure.
Being a Jew is not considered being part of a religion but part of a people.
The Hebrew bible is about Jews and written by Jews to Jews.
It is their history and how they became a people.
We believe there is a God. That God wants the best for us. We believe that those 10 commandments are the concepts given to Moses the man by divine inspiration.
We believe it is up to humans to live in peace together and help those who are oppressed.
Tikum Olem, repairing the world, is our God given purpose on Earth.
Our people have been lead to slaughter by the nations of the world throughout the history of man. Even today 5.5 million Jews in Israel cannot live in peace in their ancestoral homeland.
Jews are not the problem in the Middle East.
The ONLY problem there is the hate the Arab Muslims have for the Jews.
The State of Israel has a 1 million plus Arab population who has the same rights Jews have.
The Palestinians, on the West Bank and in Gaza,caused their own problem when they left Israel proper in 1948. The Arab nations “TOLD” these arab muslims living in the newly established state of Israel to leave. This was for the purpose of murdering the Jews by driving them into the sea.
Well the Arabs lost 5 wars over the last 59 years in their genocidal attempts to eliminate the Jews. This resulted in the Palestinians Arabs becoming a people without a home. 
The Jews do not hate Muslims. It is the Muslims trying to destroy Jews that cause Israel to defend herself.
The blame the Jew game goes over big in this world of around 3 billion Christian & Muslim followers. There are only around 18 million Jews scattered throughout the world today. The minority Jews should have been wiped out long ago but we are still here by miraculous intervention.
I agree religion is the cause of Jewish suffering and much other hate in the world. But as I said before, we are a people and not a religion.
Religion was tagged on us by other cultures.
This is my point. If a God does exist, you can be sure it is the God as revealed to Moses the man. The main law was to “Love One Another”. This is the same concept of law that Moses and Jesus taught and it is the only way for human salvation to be achieved.
Let us get rid of religions and accept the pure word of God, “Love One Another”.
Only then will peace and prosperity come into existence in this world.
Peace and Love

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By Johnny, February 3, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Missy:

I think that you have an ego problem.
Your writings seem to indicate that you think you know it all.
I laugh at how sure you are about your perception of the world around you.
You are so self absorbed in your own beliefs that anybody who thinks differently cannot possibly be right and you wrong.
I have read most of those scientific cosmological theories. They are only different hypotheses and cannot be proven.
Man has very limited intelligence at this point in time. I would not take these educated guesses very seriously.
One thing they all agree on is order does not come from chaos.
There is a cause and effect to all that happens.
Intelligent design is a necessary cause that makes existence possible.
You can accept that or not, that is your choice.
Just don’t tell me to open my mind.
My mind has been open for the last 30 years.
Since I graduated college I have been searching for the one concept that would end human suffering.
I still have not heard anybody who has shown me something better than the concept to “Love One Another”.
If that concept was properly applied, hunger, poverty,hate and all moral crimes would end.
Humankind would work together, not to make bombs but to heal the sick. Society would make its most important mission to feed, shelter and clothe those in need.
This of course has never been the goal of man.
Mankind has been always about me first and last.
That is why there is still over 4 billion people in the world who live in poverty. The other 2 billion spend their time thinking about how they can make more money so that they can buy new toys to make them happy. 
Man is a failure and religion and science is worthless if it is not used to help those in need.
Without humans applying the golden rule to “Love One Another”, all other human endeavors will fail to bring humans peace and prosperity on Earth.
That is fact and I am 100% sure of that !

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By Annie, February 2, 2007 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: # 51235 Missy

Thank you for your kind words, Missy.  And you’re dead on right!  If Johnny wants to really KNOW what this site is about, all he needs to do is look under “about us”.  It’s claim is that it’s a PROGRESSIVE site and about ideals coming about through change.  You and I know that we can never PROGRESS if we lie stagnate under the filth that is religous dogma nor in the belief in God.  There’s no change there.

RE # 51250 Johnny

You say that it’s as simple as “Love one another” then you say Saddam Hussein needed to be eradicated.  Is this how you propose to start the revival about loving your neighbor?  See, I literally don’t understand your language.  You say that you’re not religious and you dislike the “they” vs. “We” mentality but then you display it through your words of hatred toward Hussein. 

Don’t misuderstand…I don’t miss the guy but I am not promoting to “love” him either. 

I simply do not understand you and that’s just one more reason to think and believe that you ARE indeed, very religious. 

This is just a suggestion but, you think that the world is NOT billions of years old and can’t just “happen” [and you know that’s putting it simpley].  Read “The Black Hole Death” by Neil LaGrasse Tyson.  He explains in scientific detail and in lay terms so it’s easy to understand, exactly how the earth and life came about.  It’s brilliant!  Try it.  What do you have to lose?  I have read the bible—I don’t believe it.  Read this book.  If it makes no sense, keep your faith.  If it DOES make sense, think on it. 

Do you think I am trying to convert you?  I want you with your eyes wide open just like I would like to see other people wake up about this silly thing called god that has gone on for too long and done too much damage.

It’s just a proposal, take it or leave it.

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By Johnny, February 2, 2007 at 11:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Missy:

You need to read the featured article again yourself.
Nothing is mentioned about Atheism or a no God world.
You Atheists are all the same and read into things what you want.
You are no different than the religious folks.
They believe in religion as a way to please God and obtain his favor and you don’t believe in God and believe man controls his own destiny.
Both religion & man have been failures in creating real peace on Earth.
Both your philosophies have not stopped humans from committing moral crimes against each other.
It is time for God to end this nonsense and bring Judgement day upon man for his failure to love his fellow human beings and for the destruction of the ecological system of his world that was entrusted to man by the creator.
Yes, there will be “Justice” in the end and it is man who will pay the price.
Start taking responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming God for your failures.
As was stated in Genesis, God asked Adam why did you not listen to me? He stated go ask Eve. God then asked Eve why she did not listen?  Eve stated the devil made me do it. Notice that God did not bother to ask the snake any questions. That is because the snake was a symbolic representation of evil & cunning. The real sin of Adam & Eve was not accepting blame and the responsibility that goes along with it. This is still the sin of modern day humans.
Pretty deep, hope you get the point !

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By Johnny, February 2, 2007 at 8:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Roy Oetting:

We all know why Bush got rid of Saddam Hussein, he hated him.
9/11 was the screen he used to go after him.
Saddam of course was an egotistical lunatic who was a mass murderer and threatened world peace.
I have no sympathy for what happened to him and even feel that justice has been served in the death of him and his sons. 
Bush was right going after Osama Bin-Laden and the Taliban in Afganistan.
However, we know that from the beginning of his administration, in 2000, he was looking to get rid of Saddam.
The reason of course was that the President remembered how Saddam tried to assassinate Senior Bush. Also, his father was accused of not getting Saddam during the Gulf War and then allowing Saddam to gas tens of thousands of shiites & Kurds.
Well, Bush being the loyal son, finished the job his father left undone.
I admire him for this.
He did believe that Saddam was evil and that it would be better for humanity that he be eliminated.
I agree with him on this point.
What I don’t agree with, is he lied about why he did it to the people of the United States. Terrorism was the reason he gave and connected it to 9/11. This was not so.
To the contrary, Saddam was such an egotistical madman and control freak that he chased terrorists out of his country or killed them.
He was the only opposition to Iran. Iran is the sponsor and base of terrorism in the world.
If there was a regime to be dismantled, by military action, it was the one in Iran.
The real problem was the Bush administration thought that if they eliminated Saddam and his regime it would be easy to set up a democracy in Iraq. This would be good for the United States and Iraq. We would get oil and they would get freedom and an economic windfall from oil revenues that would then go to the Iraqi people rather than Saddam and his regime.
This was all good. It was the lack of planning on how to get out of Iraq once they got Saddam and his regime out of power. He also did not plan for the civil war that is now happening between the Sunnis and Shiites.
The Shiites are 60% of the population and religiously connected with Iran.
In a democratically run country the majority of the population is always going to control the government in power. The Bush administration should have realized this and did not.
Thus you now have the minority Sunnis fighting the enpowered U.S. Shiites.
The U.S. now finds itself in the middle of a civil war with no end in site.
Best we can do is train the Iraqi supported government & military and then get the hell out of there.
That is the only option Bush has but it is way overdue and not being done fast enough.
Bottom line, the U.S. must leave a stable government and then get out.

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By Missy, February 2, 2007 at 7:29 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #50888 by Johnny

Johnny

I don’t believe this is an exclusive"Christian” site.  If you remember, the article posted does seem to shed light on the “religion” origin and the narrow ways of thinking about god. I don’t believe, if you read it carefully, that it is riding with the scorched path of the Christian Crusade of the Bible.  I believe you are reading what you are wanting to read and negating what is not in your realm of thinking. I see this with almost all religous people.

As for Annie:  I have read her many postings and she is quite knowlegeable concerning the many religions of the world, in particular, The Holy Bible.  It would be my assessment that she is very intelligent and open-minded.  Your evaluation of her “losing her way” is expected.  Perhaps you should try reading this article again, and many many others as well, as you seem articulate too, but have perhaps “lost your way or ability to inhibit your religous instinct to follow blindly.”  After much research, perhaps you would see Annie as “enightened” instead of “lost.”

As for Roy, you have hit the nail on the head!  It’s my opinion that you are extremely logical, rational, and certainly NOT afraid to comment on both religous AND political articles (correlation, anyone?) and make known what should be BLATANLY OBVIOUS if all were not so delusional by the promise of a sweeter afterlife.

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By Johnny, February 1, 2007 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Roy Oetting:

You are correct.
I do not believe that “religion” is necessary to believe that there is a God.
I also don’t think “religion” is needed to do the will of God.
Religion is just another “club” that people organized to be part of a group of people who think like themselves.
It is the animalistic instinct in our genes defined as “Herd Mentality”. Animals like to stay together in groups for security and social interactions.
All groups are formed by individuals who think alike in order to promote their beliefs, way of life or causes.
This is exactly what religion is.
If you read the original Hebrew bible you will not see any mention that God wanted people to create a religion to worship him/she.
The Hebrew bible was written by Jews to Jews.
It is not a document addressed to the people of the world and never claimed to be.
It is a history about how a person, Abraham, perceived that there was one Power that controlled all the other powers of nature.
Abraham passed this teaching to his family and those he came in contact with.
Eventually, his descendants through Isaac and Jacob became the nation of Israel.
Israel translated into English means, the upright of God.
Anyone who is righteous & just can be part of the covenant between God and his people Israel.
God only states the 10 commandments and that they should be followed. How to follow them was interpreted by Moses through divine inspiration and related to the Israelites in the desert. 
The Israelites mentioned in the Bible were never considered a religion but a people.
I believe that existence and life were created through Intelligent Design or what religions call God.
Actually the Hebrew bible calls the God of creation Elohim.
This term has been translated by Jewish scholars into English to mean “The Power which controls all other Powers in existence”.
This ancient concept, would translate into the modern day scientific term called “Unified Field Theory”. This theory tries to unify the laws of physics in the relationship between the infinitesimally small particles of existence and their relation to the extremely large particles in a continues state of equilibrium held together by magnetism.
Scientifically, existence came into creation by what is known as the Bing Bang Theory.
The laws of physics do not allow for order to come from chaos. There must be cause and effect in order to explain why something “is”.
Based on the above, I believe that there is an Intelligence beyond our imagination which brought all things into existence.
To believe that all that “is” has come into existence by chaos is mathematically impossible.
Therefore, I do believe in the scientific concept of the Unified field theory called God by man.
However, I have no use for religions who create the ” Us & Them mentality or the Cause & Effect for hate in the world.
Take care

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By Annie, February 1, 2007 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: #50888 Johnny

Johnny, I just got around to reading the rest of your post regarding me and my other posts and your thoughts of my trying to ‘convert’ someone.  This is not a Christian site at all.

But that’s not what I wanted to address.  You said: “I feel sorry for you and hope you see the light once again. There is a God who cares about his children and that includes you”.

I don’t need your pity but would love to have your proof on this god that you speak of.  You are right to say that it’s humans that cause good and evil [all 6,000,000,000 of us]—because there is NO God.  If the God of the bible existed, why does he say that HE created evil?  Why does he call for war?  Why does he kill firstborns while they sleep?  Why does he curse his enemies all the while telling others to forgive theirs.  Why will he send his loved ones to be tormented for all eternity?  This same question stands for Allah.

That’s why I don’t believe in the slap happy “love one another”.  Jesus said that and he’s not going to forgive anyone.  His idea of love is warped even to a child’s vision.  Since you’ve been following my posts [I’m flattered} then you know he’s going to send his enemies to the fiery pit.

Where’s the “Love one another” in that story?  And that’s not complicating anything…I just read the book, I didn’t write it. So where are you getting your philosophy from?

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By Annie, February 1, 2007 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: # 50888 Johnny

I read the article, Johnny.  And this entire website “Truthdig” is for freethinkers.  But I am not here to convert people to atheism.  Atheism is a mindset—it’s a disbelief and not a group or church I can just convert people to.  And I don’t mind Deists who absolutely believe in a Creator.  I just hate dogma and would like to see people open their eyes for what it is.  We could get so much further in our knowlege of things if we just let go of our fear.

Johnny, you know it’s fear that holds you in bondage.  You talk like a Jew but I think you’re Christian.  Why else would you be here defending faith about “Jesus the Man, the Myth?”  Well, only you know.  But as one great philosopher once said “I don’t know what arrogant men are so cocksure of”.  And that’s what I believe gets in the way of our growing together as a people.  Abahmic religion has done nothing but separate.  And if your religion is so good, why would allow you to separate from others?

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By Annie, February 1, 2007 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: #50841 Willis

Hello Willis smile

I know everything you’re saying.  I was raised in it, marinated in it; all until I was saturated through and through.

You’re right about religion based on science.  It’s called pantheism—and I believe Einstein adhered to this philosophy.  The belief in god through science, etc.  I don’t adhere to that, although I do believe if we take a look at all the contradictory and downright mythological, primitive writings of the bible and let go of it by seeing it for what it is..writings, translations-retranslations…basic hearsay from bronze-age tribesman who wrote “some guy told me to tell you that God said”, etc.  I believe we can get further to finding out how we DID get here without the fairytales. 

I respect that you have your faith, Willis as I can see it’s made you a good person.  But haven’t you honestly ever thought about why the God of the bible says one thing and then does another?  That’s not in keeping with what one would think is a deity, it’s in keeping with men who kept adding to a book of teachings and was bound to trip up and make mistakes.

Thanks Willis.

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By Roy Oetting, February 1, 2007 at 10:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Johnny, You write as though you do not subscribe to any particular religion which makes me ask, why do you believe in a god at all? Right now there is a country who has taken land from one of it’s neighbors and it has tried very hard to not give it back because they believe their god gave it to them. Naturally this has created much resentment. To make matters worse another country is siding with the nation that stole the land because their religion thinks that a certain temple has to be rebuilt before a certain prophecy will come true. What I have just said is not a make believe story like the Bible but is ocurring right now with the loss of many lives and much suffering. In this day and age it is despicable for a leader of any nation to murder in the name of their god. Christian, Jew or Muslim. Some day President Bush will be scorned, not for what he did but why he did it. In the mean time it is a good thing that he stays out of spitting distance of me.

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By Johnny, February 1, 2007 at 6:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To this forum:

The only evil & good in this world is created by man.
There is no devil floating around out there looking to make humans sins.
Good & evil are human terms and can only be done by humans to themselves and other living things.
Good & evil have no meaning outside the scope of living beings.
The rest of existence has no need for the above terms.
Whether the Universe exists or events happen, has no meaning unless they affect living beings.
Humans have free will to decide between doing good or bad to themselves and others.
Knowledge, in the bible, is the ability to determine the difference between the two and do what is right.
The end result of that knowledge when applied in this world leads to the act of “Love One Another”.
It is just that simple.
Yet humans continue to willingly ignore that above Godly command.
Humans that continue to be self centered and see the world revolving around them will continue to “Love Themselves at the Expense of Others”.
This is why hate & apathy continues in this world.
If your goal is to be achieved at all costs, for your benefit, then anything that stands in your way becomes an object of hate that must be eliminated.
It is a universal monotheistic religious belief, that God is good. The problem comes when humans start interpreting what is the good and how to apply it. That is what individual religions attempt to do.
However, these religions lose the basic teaching of “Doing good to your fellow human being” and instead adopt the teaching of “Do what is good for us”
God never asked humans to create religions to worship him/her. It was man who created religions.
God only asked that people be RIGHTEOUS.
When this is ignored, you then get all the hate you find written in the Bible.
God only refers to humans as “My people”.
Any human that does what is right & just is considered a member of God’s people.
Thus anyone can convert and be part of God’s people.
People need to keep God’s teaching simple.
When people start complicating things, to serve their selfish needs, is when things go wrong.
If relgion would stay focused on how to “Love One Another”, then the will of God would indeed be done.
That is the truth. Say what you want about religion & God, however, it is humans who are to blame for the good & evil that happens in this world of over 6,000,000,000 people.

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By Annie, January 31, 2007 at 10:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: 50668 Fred Carlsen

Sorry again, Fred.  I checked out your information which seemed a bit askew.  Here ya go!

The Most Widely Read Book in the World
Posted byINFO on Tuesday, August 26 @ 07:34:49 CEST
Contributed by INFO

The Qur’an is the Book of Allah (God) that was revealed in Arabic to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) over a period of twenty-three years. He dictated it to his followers as he received it from the Angel Jibril (Gabriel), and they wrote it down on whatever materials were available. The Prophet and many of his followers memorized it as it was revealed. The Qur’an consists of 114 surahs (sometimes called chapters) of various lengths, from 3 to 286 verses. The verses were revealed a few at a time and not in their present order but were placed in their position by the Prophet in accordance to instructions from the Angel Jibril.
http://www.isgc.org/main/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4

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By Johnny, January 31, 2007 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie:
This forum has nothing to do with Atheism.
I suggest you read the featured article above before you try to convert people to Atheism.
The topic is about the liberal Christian view of Jesus vs the Traditional Christian view that is being debated.
This is a site for Christians to talk & debate.
The people here believe in God.
I have checked you out on other forums.
I notice you always tell religious people “Why do you post on an Atheist forum and try to convert Atheists to Christianity” ?
I ask you the same thing in reverse ? 
You are just a former Christian missionary who lost her way and became an Atheist missionary instead.
I feel sorry for you and hope you see the light once again. There is a God who cares about his children and that includes you.

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By willis, January 31, 2007 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hi Annie,

Jesus came to help the righteous and the lost be saved. The religious leaders new the teachings but they let their greed and thirst for respect mislead others so they would get all the earthly glory. Jesus said these things as an example for those people who were not as knowledgeable as the religous teachers. The people who are the religious teachers who misguide people for their own benefit are the ones who will be judge the hardest. GOD and Jesus have the power to forgive those whom they wish. If they do not want to forgive evil people then it is their right. For these very religous teachers and leaders that you say Jesus cursed were the very ones that Jesus already knew would kill him. So he already knew the evil things they would do to him. So I would say that by Jesus only stating the truth about how these religoius teachers are does not negate the message of turnning the other check. He did not say you overlook truth. He was just trying to say be good even if people are bad to you and you may change bad people to become good and to seek goodness. What Jesus called them is neligible compared to them killing him. When Jesus told us to turn the other check, this does not apply to him or GOD because we have to answer to them not the other way around. This teaching was for us not for him, he is above the law because of his obeydence to GOD. God and Jesus will reward the good people and cast away the bad to be delt with the evil devil.
 
Who are we to Judge that which made us. When the molder molds clay into a pot does he not have the right to make it to his desire and judge it as he pleases. God made us and he wants us to do good. The devil was gods angle before he made us. God made man and told to to obey his law. Man (Adam) decided not to obey GOD’s law and man gave way to evil. This cuased us all to have an evil desire in us which leads to mans death. Jesus came to take away those sins so that we that follow rightiouness and goodness can return to GOD when we die and those who follow evil will be sent to hell. You can not compare GOD or Jesus to any man on earth. If you have faith then they are greater than man. GOd is all knowing so who can we with reduced knowledge think that we can judge him.


God did not fornicate with his mother.  The trinity is something people get confused about. See God the Father is greater than the holy spirit or Jesus. Jesus and the holy spirit are apart of GOD but not the WHOLE of GOD. It iw like Jesus is the right arm of GOD and the Holy spirit is the leg of GOD. GOd blessed us with Jesus presence and the holy spirit presence so we could be guided properly because evil is so strong and the devil twist things up and fool people. Jesus said he was in the father and the father was in him. Jesus also told his disciple I am in you and you are in me. He also said that if you know me then you know my father. I take these saying to mean that as long as you are dong the WIll of GOD which is to love your neighbor then this is what makes you closer to GOD and will help you become a part of him. If GOD is love the the object of GOD is to separate those of us who are about seek Love from the evil doers. You have to be pure to be in the presence of gOD which is pure love.

Annie if you don’t believe in GOD how do you think we got hear.  If people believe in evolution I would say evolution would be there religion or GOD because this is another science theory (not a fact) so one would have to have faith in the theory like I have faith in GOD. I am honestly trying to understand why someone would not believe in GOD.

Willis

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By Annie, January 31, 2007 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment
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RE:  Roy # 50724

Thanks for that Roy!  Good to know.  I wasnt sure about Fred’s claims on overall illiteracy but you can be sure I will check it out.

One thing that just doesn’t ring true to me at all as an ex missionary—that 99 percent of non-muslims have not read the first 5 books of the bible—the Hebrew Bible.  They may not practice it, but they most surely have read it.

I will check into that as well.  smile

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By Annie, January 31, 2007 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment
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RE: Willis #50555

Hey again, Willis!

The niceness that you bring to our atheist table here is unprecedented!  smile  It’s extremely rare.  Thank you. And I understood you perfectly.  And as an ex-Christian, I can see that you seem to have a lot of faith in the unproven.

Questions! : You stated: “You are right about Jesus. He did not come to change the LAW but to forfill the LAW. He showed us how to live a life of love serving others. There were regligous leaders of the Law who challeged Jesus and he showed them the correct interpretation of the LAW and how to practice it.”

I disagree.  He told US to turn the other cheek, and to pray for those who persecute us and to give our tunic to a theif who would steal our cloak.  You say he showed us how to live but what did HE do when his persecutors [the religious leaders of the Law] came to challenge him?  He cursed them.  He called them “you hipocrits, you brood of vipers full of dead men’s bones, how can you escape the fires of hell!!—-‘you blind men!’ “..etc.  So much for Jesus doing what he tells others to do.  “Woe to you blind guides!”—“you blind fools!”  As you can see he never turns the other cheek or bows to pray for his persecutors.
When brought before the Romans, he gave backtalk.  It’s all in the book of Matthew chapter 23.
In Mark chapter 14 Jesus answers the high priest by saying that “I am [the Christ-‘annointed one’] And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He was in direct defiance of Jewish law and he knew it—yet he still got in his final word.  There’s nothing there to suggest that Jesus prayed for this man or forgave him in any way. In fact, in context, Jesus is verbally “putting that high priest in his place”


Also you said: “See even if GOD chooses to kill people or use people to forfill his purpose it is still within his right to do as he pleases. He has heavenly knowlegde and He doesn’t look at earth death or life the same way that we on do.”

That’s what Germany thought about Hitler.  Seriously, this does make god sound more like an evil dictator than a loving father who makes no mistakes. 

Gene Roddneberry said something thought provoking after reading the bible.  He said “One must question the logic of a God who creates mankind faulty and then blames them for his mistakes”

True enough!  But there’s more in my mind.  Why would god disobey his own law by fornicating with his mother?  According to Luke chapter 1, Mary was afraid so Gabriel told her “don’t be afraid, God is going to overshadow [impregnate] you with his holy spirit so that you may give birth to his offspring.  You shall call him “jesus”.  So basically the God part of the trinity fornicated with Mary by using the holy spirit part of the trinity and planted Jesus in her womb and literally had her give birth to the other third of himself.  You don’t find that odd? The “holy trinity” was at work that day.  Very odd teachings, Willis.  Extremely bizarre.  A god who goes against and breaks his own laws repeatedly yet expects us to keep them—-it doesn’t add up.

Thanks for your response!  smile

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By Annie, January 31, 2007 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment
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RE: 50595 Johnny

Johnny, if you re-read what I said, I stated that there’s no proof that Moses existed and you just validated my statement with your explanation of carbon dating and DNA, etc.  You’ve stated that you take it on faith. 

That’s the only difference that I see so I don’t know what else you’re on about.

As far as it being written by Jews for Jews—-I agree!  And we gentiles [I am a damned Roman—Italian] adopted it and turned it into our own documents.

Evil begets evil and look what has happened because of that document.  If you want to have faith in it
and it makes you a better person, go on ahead.  I had told you that before.  However, Johnny—I have to ask you, what are you doing on atheists sites if you “couldn’t care less”—I believe is how you put it..?  Just curious.

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By Annie, January 31, 2007 at 11:55 am Link to this comment
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RE: # 50668 Fred Carlsen

The comment was: That is the teaching of the Hebrew bible and that is why it is the most read and ADMIRED document in the history of mankind”.
So my stance remains.  You may want to take a closer look at what you’re reading when people post.  wink

Just because people may [or may not] have read it and know it exists does not mean they admire it!

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By Roy Oetting, January 31, 2007 at 10:12 am Link to this comment
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Fred, Just checked the following countries: Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordan and the average literacy for these mostly Moslem countries including women is 82%. Unlike American Christians, you can bet these people read their religious books. If Moses wrote the first five books he is responsible for people beleiving in Adam and Eve and Noah and the flood and wondering in the desert for 40 years. Look for other sources besides books that use the Bible for reference and see would get. I won’t say there wasn’t a character by the name of Moses but the stories are myths just as they are for David. Educated people know that the world is older than six thousand years but according to Moses it ain’t.

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By Fred Carlsen, January 31, 2007 at 5:56 am Link to this comment
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Annie:

The Hebrew bible is the most read and studied document in the history of man by far.
Christians,Muslims,Jews,Secular scholars & Atheists have all read the Teachings of the document called the 5 Books of Moses or Old Testament.
The Koran has not even been read by most Muslims.
Their illiteracy rate world wide is over 50% ! 99% of non-Muslims in the world have also not read it either.
Also, Christianity & Islam base most of their religions on this Jewish document and have both studied and applied many of its teachings to their religions.
So you are wrong as is the usual case.
Think before you write “YOUR” personal views of what are the real facts.

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By Johnny, January 30, 2007 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment
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Annie:

Moses is known to mankind from the Hebrew bible.
You say there is no proof that Moses existed.
The Hebrew bible is a book written by Jews, about Jews to Jews.
It is the history of their own ancestors and how they became a nation.
I need no proof if my father or mother tells me who their father or ancestors were. I believe what they tell me. I am not going to ask them to prove it to me.
The Jewish people are a family.
That is the way we believe.
If you, a non-family member, does not believe what my ancestors tell me, I really could not care less. Who are you to ask me to prove it ?
I state what I was told by people who I believe. That is all the proof necessary for me.
I don’t believe who you are. You call yourself Annie. How do I know if that is your real name.
I don’t know you. I never personally heard or saw you.
Does that mean you are not that Annie who you claim you are? You can show me all your identification documents, I could then question you as to whether they are real or forged. I could then say that there are many Annies in this world. Prove to me that you are the Annie I was communicating with on this forum ?
If you stated ” I am the Annie who wrote to you on this forum such & such”; I could state that you are another Annie who may have read what I was saying.
There is no way for you to prove it, except for me to believe you.
In the end I must believe you.
Moses is a person who lived 3300 yrs ago.
No pictures of Moses exist. No body has been found yet for DNA to identify him.
Even if the burial place of Moses was found, and his name was written in ancient Hebrew on his coffin, would this be proof that this was the Moses in the bible ? Of course not. This maybe someone else named Moses. If you carbon dated his bones and found that he lived 3300 yrs ago, would this tell you that he was the biblical Moses ? Maybe but not definitely. This might be another man named Moses who lived around the same time.
Bottom line, I must believe that this man named Moses lived relying upon oral teaching & written documents or have seen him in the flesh 3300 yrs. ago.
The knowledge of a man called Moses has been passed down from generation to generation as historical fact.
There is “NO” reason to doubt that the “man” Moses did not exist or that the history of the Jewish people is a lie.
The Jewish people still exist till this very day and continue to believe that Moses freed them from Egypt and led them to the promised land now called ISRAEL.
It is necessary for you to disprove the Hebrew bible as a total lie. That 3300 yrs of Jewish history never happened in order to disprove Moses existed.
I am well versed in biblical archealogy. I can tell you that more and more of the Hebrew bible is being confirmed with each new dig in the holy land.
The Jewish historian, Josephus, who lived there 2,000 yrs ago, wrote about places and events which happened in Judea which is present day Israel.
Most of his writings have already been confirmed by modern day archaeology.
If you don’t believe me, read it yourself in Archaeological scientific text books.
If you claim Moses did not exist then prove it.
Present to me your scientific proof that the man Moses never existed ?
I don’t think so is not proof.
I don’t believe the bible is true is not proof.
I don’t believe in miracles is not proof.
Come up with scientific facts that he did not exist.
Otherwise, keep your unsupported doubts to yourself. Better to be silent on a subject you do not know then show your prejudiced view against the facts presented in the Five Books of Moses.
At least I have my reliable ancestoral sources to support my claim for his existence.
You have nothing but your prejudice.
Take care

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By willis, January 30, 2007 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment
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Anne,

First of all I will clarify my point. I was not trying to say that the law of GOD has changed, but what I was pointing out is that we as people have different customs and languages and sometimes the same message has to be communicated in different ways for different people to understand the message. Different strokes for different folks. Someone talking Spanish may not understand someone talking English so the message of Love would have to be communicated differently.

You are right about Jesus. He did not come to change the LAW but to forfill the LAW. He showed us how to live a life of love serving others. There were regligous leaders of the Law who challeged Jesus and he showed them the correct interpretation of the LAW and how to practice it.

The Devil is a lier and will decieve you. There are false prophets and it becomes harder to understand the LAW. But God has made a new covenant with us in which he has written His laws in our hearts and mind. The bible is just a resource to use and gives us history and knowledge. But I say most of us already know and understand these laws that are written in our hearts and mind. You as well as I know we should not kill, lie, cheat, steal, speak bad things about people, etc…....... But although we know this we still do it. When we do these things and bad things happen to us we always get mad at GOD. I am not saying that I like or agree with the fact that in the OT some peopl egot killed for disobeying GOD. I just fell that God is greater than anyone so who I am to question my maker. Just because I don’t agree or understand a True act of GOD does not mean I have the right to question his actions. Just when a was young and I question my parents, they were quick to beat my but and I learned not to question my humanly makers, So why should I question my Heavenly maker. My goal is only to understand thing more clearly and try to follow good and not evil. To treat people how I want to be treated no matter what religion race or creed.

GOD is our maker and he will judge us at the end of time. His decisions are the only just decision and are only the right decisions. God has the right to make us or destroy us. He is the kingdowm, the Power and the Glory. He gave Adam and others in the OT plenty of chances to obey him and follow what was right. Adam disobeydence is what cause evil to become a part of us. So some people got destroyed (good & bad) because of the sins of Adam we all are suffereing. We are all doomed to death through the sins of one man, ADam. But we have an opportunity of eternal life through the obeydence of one man Jesus. So death and evil things became a part of us through adam and life and good things became a part of us through JEsus (but heaven is where the good will be rewared not on earth). See even if GOD chooses to kill people or use people to forfill his purpose it is still within his right to do as he pleases. He has heavenly knowlegde and He doesn’t look at earth death or life the same way that we on do.

Sorry I don’t proof read - no time. I talk from the heart, but when I get more time I will back it us with the bible. I just tend you use mostly my own words from what I have concluded from the bible instead of quoting from the bible. I do not speak as fine as the bible but I hope I am getting my point across to you.


Willis

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By Annie, January 29, 2007 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment
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To Willis cont’d

The bible says that light has nothing to do with darkness.  Men walk in the dark because their deeds are evil.  Yet then it says that God dwells—where?  In the darkness!  There are so many contradicitons that just can’t be reconciled to an all-knowing, loving god that those who choose to believe are either naive, or afraid.  I can think of no other reason after my studies on these books.
““Then spake Solomon, the Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.” (I Kings 8:12. Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1) “And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.” (II Samuel 22:12) “He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.” (Psalm 18:11) “The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him.” (Psalm 97:1-2)

And lastly, you stated: “In the beinging times GOD had to watch over us like a mother watches over a new born child. Just like you descipline your child, GOd loves us and has to descipline us also. Love does not means you give the child everything that they want. You have to give the child what they need.”

Willis, love does not mean that you stone your child to death for being a rebel.  It does not mean that you cut him off from his people. It does not mean that you stone one of them for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.  It does not mean that if one of your daughters is not a virgin on her wedding night that she is stoned to death. [“If any man take a wife, and go in unto her . . . and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid . . . and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die . . .]” (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

For an unconditional agape type loving “Father” he certainly has conditions.  And for someone who “is not the author of confusion” he certainly has made a very confusing book.  “Thou shalt not kill”  Two pages over, God’s telling people to kill, etc.

My only question for you is the opposite of what you asked me.  Why don’t you take the bad and see it for what it is?  Human frailty written in very different times and that’s why you won’t find the word “abortion” or women being treated as equally as men, [apparently God has an aversion to his own female creation??].  It is primitive writings about shekels of money which we don’t even use anymore.  Stories that were compiled by men of their time to maintain order they way they saw fit…and that a true and loving deity would make himself known and not hide away for 2000 years only to burn you in hell if you don’t believe in him anymore.  Even an earthly father today can see the problem with that and yet you claim our minds are so small.  Then why are we less barbaric and more fair toward our children?  Why are those few who aren’t good to their kids, taken to jail?  Could it be that mankind has changed over the years but since that book hasn’t there’s enough evidence in that fact alone to say “this isn’t an all-knowing, all loving Father?”  This smacks of human writings?  I think so.

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By Annie, January 29, 2007 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
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RE: #50253

Hi Willis!

Thank you for responding to me.  smile  I appreciate your kindness and candor as well since atheists don’t often see this from believers.
Your words are in quotes and I answered in kind.

First, you stated: “I conmend you on your ability to take word from the bible out of context and to use them to express points that Jesus and GOD are not about LOVE.” 
Willis, that simply wasn’t my intent.  I don’t believe in gods or Jesus.  I am only quoting from a Law Book of the religious that I know QUITE WELL.  And if there are bad things in there as I have pointed out that there are, how do you reconcile it to the good things that contradict those bad things entirely?

Secondly, you said: “First of you can not take the OT and think that we are under all of the same laws.”

To that I ask, ‘why not?’—and by whose decree do they no longer exist since Christ himself said that he didn’t come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. Since by your own admission the bible isn’t literal which parts should Judeo-Christians follow and which should they avoid?  And if God could kill rebellious teens by demanding a stoning, or steal babies from their Egyptian beds to avenge the Jews regarding land—how do I find anything GOOD in this god?  Even with the ‘change up’ with Jesus supposedly being God incarnate and love—-tell you what, you show me their love and I will show you the contradictions of that love.  And I will use the bible to do it.  I promise you.

Next, you said: “In the OT time period GOG dealt with the people directly of through prophets such as Moses. During this time there were premative people and primitive ways of communicating. Parables and simple words were used to illistrate ideas and to get GOD’s point across.”

Why?  Was the Almighty who spoke to Moses from a burning bush [as the tale goes] too busy to talk to people?  Is he still too busy?  Can he not take paper to pen himself?  Why speak through ‘prophets’ which could only dilute anything that is second-hand hearsay, and take a chance on losing your supposed beloved creatures because of miscommunication??

The next thing I will mention, you stated: “So if you are going to use the bible to defend your point of view and believe in what the bible says when it talks about bad things. Then use that same logic and believe in the bible when it says good things. Then dwell on the good and not on the bad. The bad things you interpret as wrong is a way that the devil uses the bible to get you to not believe in GOD. “

How is that possible when the bad immediately dissolves anything that God or Jesus would say that is supposed to be good?  The two contradict each other.  Good is the opposite of evil.
Don’t misunderstand me.  People write both GOOD and bad things even in mythologies like the Bible, Qur’an, Torah and Talmud.  For example, the Psalms—some are very violent but some are poetic and at first glance very beautiful. I.e—Psalms 55:4,5 and 6:“My heart is severely pained within me. The terrors of death have fallen on me.

5 Fearfulness and trembling have come on me. Horror has overwhelmed me.

6 I said, “Oh that I had wings like a dove! Then I would fly away, and be at rest.”  Now that’s a seemingly beautiful poem but in reality it’s a prayer from David before God has him go into battle and KILL people.  I could pull the poetic ones out that I like and dwell on just those and make my case for a good and loving god.  But the surrounding message doesn’t support it since King David’s sole purpose in praising God was to thank God for backing him in WAR.

cont’d above.  wink

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By willis, January 29, 2007 at 10:23 am Link to this comment
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Annie,

I conmend you on your ability to take word from the bible out of context and to use them to express points that Jesus and GOD are not about LOVE. You mentioned only things from the bible that if one did not read the entire bible and come to an overall conclusion on what GOD and Jesus was really about.

First of you can not take the OT and think that we are under all of the same laws. In the OT time period GOG dealt with the people directly of through prophets such as Moses. During this time there were premative people and primitive ways of communicating. Parables and simple words were used to illistrate ideas and to get GOD’s point across. GOD message to us primitive and small brained people that we are, cannot even understand full earthly let alone heavenly knowledge. GOd must communicate to us so that we feable minded people can understand what to do and what not to do. In the beinging times GOD had to watch over us like a mother watches over a new born child. Just like you descipline your child, GOd loves us and has to descipline us also. Love does not means you give the child everything that they want. You have to give the child what they need. I don’t have a lot of time to talk today but I will continue this at a later time. But remember I am not a fan of religion specifically. I do not even declare a religion, although I am still a beliver of God and his prophets. Tell me about the good things that GOD and Jesus says when you talk to me about the bad things. Then you will realize that the bad things you mention conflict with the good things. Bads things are for the bad people and good things and for the good people. But sometimes the good suffer because of the bad, this is because sin is in us all because of Adam. Live is in us all because of Jesus.

Jesus was a servant and even wiped his desiples feet. He came to earth to serve and to be a shepard to watch over his flock. Don’t get to bogged down on defining what words meant in the bible and try to compare them to today because today is a different time with different customs.
we have to take the main purpose of the bible (which is LOVE) and let it guide us. So whatever happened in the bible that was bad, don’t blame that on GOD, bad has come to us and will always come to us because of our disobeydence to GOD. So as children of GOD if we love one another then we obey his will. So it is us who broke the convenant with GOD and do hateful things and then when hateful things happen to us we blame GOD.

So if you are going to use the bible to defend your point of view and believe in what the bible says when it talks about bad things. Then use that same logic and believe in the bible when it says good things. Then dwell on the good and not on the bad. The bad things you interpret as wrong is a way that the devil uses the bible to get you to not believe in GOD. Therefore, dweel on the good and do good acts and then one day we an opened mind you will see that the problem is not GOD or Jesus or JEws, Christians or the Islam. The problem is the same problem that is has always been. The problem is people being mislead by evil. Just like adam was mislead by the devil-(snake). So Chose Good or Evil and I tell you that you will be on the side of GOD even if you don’t believe.


Willis

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By Annie, January 29, 2007 at 1:25 am Link to this comment
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Sorry.  It’s 3 a.m.  and that last comment to Johnny was for post # 50121. smile

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By Annie, January 29, 2007 at 1:20 am Link to this comment
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RE: #35021 Johnny

Johnny, I feel like I know you from somewhere.  wink

I also feel compelled to say a few things about your post.  First I would like to point out that there is no documented proof that Moses even existed much less performed miracles like the dividing of the Red Sea, etc…for the Hebrew people.  The ten commandments are extremely vague—the first four are there only to pay homage to an apparent mego-la-maniac.  There is no commandment about “Thou shalt not rape a woman”—or Thou shalt not abuse a child or commit sexual acts of violence against a child”, etc.  In fact, there isn’t ONE commandment that demands you don’t physcially assault another human being.  If it was written by these simple nomads as you claim, then it’s clear they wrote it for people of their time and their race only.  Because as you know, the Hebrew bible god demands MANY, MANY violent acts against the Hebrew people’s enemies.  Don’t make me type it all.  Let’s just think about how God, himself, according to the Hebrew book, had the Angel of Death visit and kill the firstborn son of every Egyptian just so he could get back at their parents.  Only in a world as obtuse as the one “bible thumpers” live in, could this act be considered just and good and balanced.  I am an atheist—one of the “damned” that you spoke of.  wink  And I would like you to tell me how God balanced good and evil by doing that act against CHILDREN. 

You also stated: “That is the teaching of the Hebrew bible and that is why it is the most read and admired document in the history of mankind”.

Not if you are a Muslim, it’s not.  In fact, Islam is the larger religion today.  So I would wager the Qur’an, which is equally barbaric, is in the lead for “precious documents”.

You also mentioned the golden rule being “To love one another”.  Easily written or typed out but when have you seen that put into practice by religious folks en masse?  The United States President said that the Christian God told him to go to war in Iraq—all the while the Iraqi and Middle Eastern nations claim that the US should be converted to Islam—-all the while the Jews argue that God gave them that “piece of land” and they are going to fight for it to the death.

I am sorry.  But atheists behave better.  That’s a fact.  As a rule they’re anti-violence, and mainly focus on science to find peaceable solutions to the dilemmas in life.

And as an atheist, I have to wonder why theists even come to an atheist site and post comments unless it’s just to argue.  Why else?  As an atheist I don’t go to religious forums and tell people there’s no god and show them how foolish the concept is.  I could—for the sake of argument but what’s the point in that?  Yet you will find theists beating their holy books on every atheist forum.  It would seem that the “fight” is just in them and not “Love they neighbor as thyself”.  Love includes equal respect.         

Please tell me why theists feel the need to comment on these sites.  Thanks smile

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By Johnny, January 28, 2007 at 9:17 am Link to this comment
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Roy Oetting:

Secular history is always written about leaders and nations.
There is always a biography of some famous person being written.
The masses are just that “a mass of people without individuality”.
The little guy is just not cared about or written about.
Who cares to read about a person who works 9 to 5, gets married, raises children, watches football games, drinks beer, cheats on his wife, gets divorced ,gets old & sick and then dies.
People like to read about larger than life figures.
The Hebrew Bible is just the opposite. It talks about families and the formation of them into a nation.
Abraham, Issac & Jacob were just men. They were not kings or generals. They were just plain old nomads living in the desert.
The bible talks about the family life of these men and their families and how they formed into a nation.
It talks about every day life and all the troubles that are experienced within the family unit.
It then moves on to talk about the formation of these families into a nation.
Again the Bible focuses on a man, Moses, who was exiled and forced to flee into the wilderness to escape injustice. He becomes a leader, unwillingly, who would free his people from slavery of the mind and body. He did not take power by physical military force but by the noble action of putting his life in danger to free his people from the dictatorial rule of Egypt.
The Bible talks about ordinary people who rise above the masses to become leaders for the sole purpose of elevating those governed.
The Hebrew bible is about life, good and bad.
The bible puts out all the dirty laundry of its leaders for all to see.
That is why you read about the good and bad actions of its leaders. Kings, priests, prophets and military leaders are all included.
That is why the Hebrew bible is a unique document.
It does not cover up the faults of its leaders and tells us that they too must follow the moral laws like everyone else.
However, this very openess of the bible is used by the atheists to show how evil God is and how corrupt are his followers.
These atheists have no understanding that man is a mixture of good and evil, or positive & negative traits, and must combine the two traits to arrive at what is right and causes harmony and peace in the world.
The universe also exists by the laws of positive & negative reactions and the need for both to maintain equilibrium for existence to continue. 
The Hebrew bible was written to point out the differences of positive and negative actions made by individuals and how to overcome them.
The golden rule to the successful accomplishment of using good & evil traits for the benefit of humankind is to “Love one another”. To implement this rule one must do what is “right and just” in dealing with your fellow human being.
That is the teaching of the Hebrew bible and that is why it is the most read and admired document in the history of mankind.

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By Annie, January 27, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment
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RE: #2716 Kevin

Kevin typed on 1/30 of some year: “Slavery back then was not what you are thinking it is like we had in the United States.  Servants were paid and given places to live.  They were treated a lot better”.

Kevin, Kevin and other Christians as I doubt Kevin comes here anymore.  Again, not to pick on Kevin as I am sure he’s just parrotting what he’s been told but that is FALSE FALSE FALSE.  Let me quote your law book [bible] to you regarding slavery once again so that this puts the ‘oh-all-too-handy-happy- version” of biblical slavery to rest.

Jesus NEVER offers solutions for slavery, poverty, or women’s equality. As for slavery, it appears he encouraged the beating of slaves:

“And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes”.

-Luke 12:47

There’s nothing peaceful about a beating nor being held hostage which Jesus also seemed very comfortable with.  If that’s a job, Kevin, who would apply?  Obviously they were taken as hostage.

I see so many biblical errors on this page and people trying to shove “this” theory and “that”  into the primitive works of the bible to make it seem harmless that it would be impossible to show you all of them.  Bottom line: the bible was written by men, for men and not for women and MOST CERTAINLY not written by any deity.  It’s just foolish to think that a deity could not talk to us the way he supposedly did Moses, etc and that he loves and favours only a certain people and that he allows talking serpents into paradise [which by definition wouldn’t make it paradise anymore] just so he could set people up to fail and then blame them for it. [being that he was ‘all knowing’] 

WAKE UP and face the fact that like Islam, you were DUPED.

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By Tony Wicher, January 26, 2007 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #44850 by Roy Oetting on 1/01 at 1:26 pm

“Tony, god is imaginary. The belief in a god is obsolete. The belief in a god puts our species at risk. That is why I continue to argue.”

Roy,

You can look anywhere in the space time continuum and you will not find either heaven or hell, God or the Devil, because both are within you. 

There is nothing more real than your own mind.  You are the world. 

I have statuettes of Ra and Osiris gazing down at me from my printer as I write. My soul basks in their holy light.

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By Annie, January 26, 2007 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment
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RE: 49674 Willis

Again, I ran out of room. 

Willis, you stated: “In my own words, I believe this passage is stating that some humans believe that they are wise but GOD has showed them to be foolish. This pride of being wise is based on human standards of thinking and that you can take the smartest human on earth and he still will be dumb when you compare him to GOD’s wisdom”.

Which wisdom was that?  The one about indifference to slavery?  The one regarding all the mysogyny going on in the bible that Christians tend to ignore and accept on “faith”?

I.e.  What about Jesus’ love? Regarding slavery: “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” (Luke 12:47-48) The entire context (Luke 12:41-48) shows that this is not part of a parable—it is the explanation of a parable, after Peter asked a question. But even if it were a parable, it would carry the same weight as a teaching of Jesus.

Clearly, Jesus is very comfortable with slavery as he never condemns it.

The word “servant” above is doulos, which means “slave” in Greek, and is correctly rendered “slave” by the NRSV, NAS, Scholar’s Version, and others. “Shall” meant “should,” as Jesus adds: “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.” (Luke 12:48)

Jesus asks you to forgive your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.  But he hasn’t been heard from for over 2000 years and if you don’t believe or become skeptical of his existence, is he going to forgive YOU?  No, he’s going to burn you for all eternity.  [Revelation 14:11-9]


Also, RE:  Kevin #2596

You stated: “THE BIBLE TODAY MATCHES THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.  There is proof that it has not been changed.  You have no choice whether or not to believe that the Bible is historically correct because it is a plain fact that it is”.

That statement is false—and even Martin Luther who did away with 7 of the 73 original “books” could tell you that if he were here;  but I would like to see what “proof” you have.  If you can prove the bible, then you don’t need FAITH and the bible contradicts itself all the more.  smile

Remember?  “Blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe?”.  Paul talks about the importance of ‘faith’ all the time.  The book of Romans is enveloped in it and commonly known as the book of ‘faith’.  So where’s this PROOF?  wink

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By Annie, January 26, 2007 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment
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RE: #49674 Willis

I am sure you haven’t read the OT nor taken into account some of the sayings of Jesus in the New Testament if you believe the god of the bible is a god of love.

Just one question as I realise that I am butting in here:  Who committed incest in the garden of Eden after the fall?  According to Mosaic law which they were then under, incest is a sin and abomination.  So, who did the bad thing?  wink

And regarding God’s love: What’s the penalty for working on the Sabbath?  To be stoned to death. “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whoseoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.” (Exodus 35:2) For the chilling application of this law, see Numbers 15:32-36, where a man who picked up sticks on the sabbath was stoned, “and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”

What about a rebeliious son?  What does the loving god say to do with him??? He will be stoned to death.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.” (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

“And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:17) “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he that cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.” (Leviticus 20:9)

And although Solomon had 1000 lovers (I Kings 11:1-3); what does god say about women who act haughty? 
He puts scabs on their heads and uncovers their private parts.—This is sexual harassment and molestation. “Secret parts” (below) is poth, which means “hinged opening” (vagina). This is just one of many biblical instances in which women are debased, immorally or cavalierly treated as male property, subject to purchase, sale, abduction, and even sexual assault. No wonder the biblical writers never disapprove of such crimes when they are committed by God himself. How can anyone possibly pretend to love a god who would say such a thing?
“Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover [lay bare-ASV] their secret parts.” (Isaiah 3:16-17)

All of the bible and Qur’an, Torah and talmud [which was admittedly written by rabbis in the first century] are considered holy—-yet they all smack of primitive lies and human frailty and mythology for effect. 

The faster people awaken to the lies and horror of religion, the less tall buildings get brought down by terrorists and the less we see little children’s limbs lying in the street—victims of territorial pride because “god [petty as he is] promised a piece of dirt to “his people”.

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By willis, January 25, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
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Roy,

I believe in Adam and Eve. There had to be a first female and first male that we all came from. You were not there nor were I there to see the creation of Adam or Eve, so it basically comes down to Faith. I have Faith in the existance of Adam & Eve and I see that you do not have faith in their existance, but I tell you that my believe or you disbelieve in Adam and Eve is not what is important. When you read the bible you must understand the point that the bible is trying to convey to us. That point is how our greed, envy, hate, and temptation leads to our disobeyence to GOD’s will, which is Love.

I also have Faith in Noah building the ark and saving two of each kind from the flood. But again, I don’t think the actual beleif in this story is what is important. I believe that the point of the story is really what is important. The point is to live your life with love in obeyence to GOD’s will of Love and that ultimately destruction will come to those who chose a path of evil, like the evil people who drowned in Noah’s days.

Roy, I like the fact that you question my belief in the stories of the bible and yet you were not there and but you take people’s estimates in other books as fact. Why do you beleive other things that you read and what other people who write books say, but yet you don’t believe what the bible says. I tell you that it is very hypocritycal of you to believe in everything everybody else has to say (without proof) but yet you can’t except what the bible says without proof. It all comes down to what you have faith in and only you can decided that for yourself. By reading what you wrote below, sound like you have faith in other books and stories that you did not actually observe but don’t have faith in the bible which you did not observe. Sounds like you are switching your criteria of beleif in what is written when you talk of the bible.

Roy,

I tell you that proof is in the mind of the beholder. If you were not there and I was not there we both have no proof. It all comes down to faith. There are many scholars that back up claims in the bible and you can find proof in the stuff that they write. But if you focus your proof on those individual who writing suggest that the bible is not fact, then you will find evidence that lean toward those people also. So you see Roy what ever side you want to take you can always find an arguement of proof which will favor both sides. It really comes down to the faith that you have inside of you.

I believe that I came from a more powerful and intelligent being (which I call GOD) than I am. Some believe they came from a big bang of nothing which led to intelligence. Being an engineer, I see more logic in me coming from some supreme being, instead of from nothingness. Therefore, when I look at the bible I look at it as a source for answers on how we should live our lives. I do not understand everything in the bible and I never will. But what I do understand is that the main point of the bible is a guide for us to seek and show LOVE. I don’t get bog down into the details because this is what confuses people and allows evil to enter our hearts. I focus on the prime directive of GOD and what the bible is trying to tell us.

1) Love your GOD with your mind, soul and body.
2) Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

GOD is a GOD of Love and wants us to love each other. He does not want the evil things of this world to happen: like hate, envy, killing, and other evil things. But we humans became evil when Adam and Eve disobeyed GOD. This act is what made humans knowledgeable about evil through disobeying GOD. Once they became aware of evil, evil became apart of human life. But to return to GOD we must be seekers of GOOD. So Roy, seek goodnes and not evil, and I believe GOD will know the love in your heart and except you even with your disbeleif in Him.


Willis

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By Roy Oetting, January 24, 2007 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
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I responded the other day and just noticed it wasn’t posted. Among other things i asked if hope2endure and Willis actually believed in Adam and Eve and that Noah built an ark and saved two of each kind from the flood. I also asked if they knew that the estimated world population was around 30,000,000 at the time of the supposed flood. Those people didn’t drown. Doesn’t the fact that people all over the world were going aroung minding their own business while some small tribe creates a god in the middle east. Even their neighbors didn’t pay attention to them. There were other cultures in todays India, Iran, Greece, Italy and Egypt. Don’t nit pick, naswer the basic question - How can you believe in the Bible when so much of it is proven wrong?

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By hope2endure, January 22, 2007 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment
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“What is Paul saying here in 1st Corinthians 1:18-30? Is he saying that his god does like smart people?”

Paul was emphasizing the vanity of much imperfect human “wisdom” in comparison to the spiritual wisdom that God provides. Proverbs 26:12 points out, “Have you seen a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for the stupid one than for him”. Those who are truly “smart” seek to gain godly wisdom.

“True wisdom itself keeps crying aloud in the very street. In the public squares it keeps giving forth its voice. At the upper end of the noisy streets it calls out. At the entrances of the gates into the city it says its own sayings:
“How long will you inexperienced ones keep loving inexperience, and how long must you ridiculers desire for yourselves outright ridicule, and how long will you stupid ones keep hating knowledge? Turn back at my reproof. Then to you I will cause my spirit to bubble forth; I will make my words known to you. Because I have called out but you keep refusing, I have stretched out my hand but there is no one paying attention, and you keep neglecting all my counsel, and my reproof you have not accepted, I also, for my part, shall laugh at your own disaster, I shall mock when what you dread comes, when what you dread comes just like a storm, and your own disaster gets here just like a storm wind, when distress and hard times come upon you. At that time they will keep calling me, but I shall not answer; they will keep looking for me, but they will not find me, for the reason that they hated knowledge, and the fear of Jehovah they did not choose. They did not consent to my counsel; they disrespected all my reproof. So they will eat from the fruitage of their way, and they will be glutted with their own counsels. For the renegading of the inexperienced ones is what will kill them, and the easygoingness of the stupid is what will destroy them. As for the one listening to me, he will reside in security and be undisturbed from dread of calamity.” Proverbs 1:20-33

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By willis, January 22, 2007 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment
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Roy Oetting asks

What is Paul saying here in 1st Corinthians 1:18-30?
Is he saying that his god does like smart people?


Roy,

In my own words, I believe this passage is stating that some humans believe that they are wise but GOD has showed them to be foolish. This pride of being wise is based on human standards of thinking and that you can take the smartest human on earth and he still will be dumb when you compare him to GOD’s wisdom.
So don’t boast about being wise because you got this wisdom or ability to have wisdom from GOD.

Conclusion: Be humble.

He gave us Jesus Christ to show us the true wisdom on how to live and treat each other with LOVE. This is why Jesus was born the way he was born. This why Jesus did not have a place to call home and why he lived among the poor people and talked to the poor and to become a servant of the poor. Jesus was not a rich man of noble birth. But yet no one was wiser or richer in spirit. He was a messenger of GOD.

Conclusion: Jesus was here to show GOD’s Wisdom and thus Paul is saying this is what should be followed.

See man’s wisdom is based on lust, greed, envy and other things that are not based on LOVE. So in the end the Wise (of this world) will be humbled and the humbled (or this world) will be exhaulted. The wise of this world seek humanly pleasures at the expense of others, while those that seek the wisdom of GOD make love there guide. When Adam first sinned this made evil known to the world but we became delievered from this evil through GOD giving us Jesus to follow his examples of Love.

Conclusion: It is because of GOD that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from GOD so only boast in the Lord.

Willis

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By Roy Oetting, January 21, 2007 at 11:28 am Link to this comment
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What is Paul saying here in 1st Corinthians 1:18-30?
Is he saying that his god does like smart people?

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By hope2endure, January 16, 2007 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment
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Roy says,

“I have no proof nor do you. As far as I’m concerned I made it up or I read it in the book of Roy. Harry Potter isn’t real either.”

Roy, I and others have genuinely attempted to answer your comments in a serious manner. Although you may not agree with what we have said and the scriptures cited, could you show us the same courtesy if you are truly interested in an exchange of ideas? 1st Corinthians 1:18-30.

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By willis, January 16, 2007 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment
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john sandoval write:

To Willis;
people who believe as you do have been fooled and brainwashed since childhood.
You would kill, as well as die for your beliefs.
I don’t even feel sorry for you !
May your God bless you brother.
Jonathan

John,

Here we go again with mistating the facts. You have no clue what I believe or what I would do. If you have read anything that I have written you would clearly see that I am against killing.
I am not asking anyone to feel sorry for me because I have nothing to feel sorry for.
I am not against anyone whether they beleive the way I beleive or not. Since you have a heard time of understand what I write I will attempt to break it down on what I believe.

I have respect for all religions whether I beleive in everything that is in each religion or not. I believe that there is on GOD who created us all and wishes that we all live in peace with one another and help one another. I beleive that GOD is Love and he wants us to love one another. I belive that Jesus came to earth to show us through his teachings how to Love one another.

I am not a proponent of Religion because I beleive it is the evil and greediness of man that confuses the masses about the true intent of GOD which is for us to Love him and to Love one another.

I do not get so crazy as you do or others in the specific stories of the bible or taking them out of context, becuase no one will truly understand why things happened or who they happened, that is a question of faith. For me it is more important to understand and live by the purpose of the bible, which is to create love within people.

Simply put for you: Just try to treat people ith the same love you have for yourself.

Willis

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By Roy Oetting, January 16, 2007 at 9:55 am Link to this comment
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I have no proof nor do you. As far as I’m concerned I made it up or I read it in the book of Roy. Harry Potter isn’t real either.

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By hope2endure, January 15, 2007 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment
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Roy says,

“Why did Paul create this religion? Was it because he was on the outs with his girlfriend who was the daughter of the Rabbi at the temple where Paul worked. Paul had to leave the temple but all he knew was religion so he started writing about a new religion and he set rules that were preferred by the people of the time as opposed to the strict rules of Judism.”

Roy, as for being “brainwashed”, some may be however, the bible encourages sincere seekers of truth to seek accurate knowledge by using their power of reason. Jesus prayed that his follwers seek accurate knowledge. John 17:3, Romans 12:1.

Roy, you are mistaken about Paul, who was originally called Saul of Tarsus. Paul had been a extremely zealous Pharisee and a great persecutor of Christs followers, even participating in the stoning of Stephen and the jailing of Christians. Paul did not “have to leave the temple” and he did not “write a new religion” because he could not do anything else. Paul left great wealth, priviledge and position when he chose to follow the Messiah. Paul supported himself in tentmaking and reiterated that he and other genuine followers of Christ were not “peddlers of the word of God as many men are” but preached out of sincerety. 2nd Corithians 2:17. In fact his conversion to Christianity was so dramatic that people “gave way to astonishment” saying “is this not the man that ravaged those in Jerusalem”? Acts Chapter 9:1-30 & 13:9, Colossians 1:9-10. Paul was careful not to deviate from Christ’s teachings and warned Christians, saying “Look out perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey, through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to the Christ”. Colossians 2:8

Lastly, what scriptural or historical evidence do you have for your claims about a “girlfriend” and her “rabbi father”? Prior to following Christ, Paul was a strict and zealous Pharisee and closely followed the Mosaic Law in regard to the marriage arrangement. After becoming a Christian he continued to follow Christ’s teachings regarding the sacredness of marriage and the rules against fornication and adultery. Paul remained unmarried by choice. 1st Corinthians 5:1-13, 7:1-2 & 7:8-9, 7:32-38.

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By hope2endure, January 15, 2007 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment
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“Talk about brain washed John. Look at Hope2endure. That person doesn’t seem to have any regard for human life.”

Roy I think you totally misread the thread. I was responding to Missy’s statement. The bible is very clear about the sacredness of blood and human life. Jesus Christ clearly backed up the Mosaic Law which stated “thou shalt not kill” when he said no manslayer has everlasting life in him. The only one who has the right make laws regarding life or to take life is the life giver, God. Some of the ways that we can demonstrate our respect for life is not to participate in warfare in any form, not to take the life of the unborn, maintain peace with our neighbors & families and not commit murder. We would want to avoid being like those described in 2nd Timothy 3:1-7.

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By Roy Oetting, January 15, 2007 at 11:06 am Link to this comment
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Talk about brain washed John. Look at Hope2endure. That person doesn’t seem to have any regard for human life. The scary part is,  and it is obvious, that there are a bunch of countries in the Middle East with the same lack of regard. Brain washing starts young. I know a six year old who told me that Jesus lives in Israel. I can remember when i was eight years old one of my Catholic friends told me that i was going to hell. At the time i was Lutheran and it wasn’t until i was 12 that I started looking at things logically. I never turned back from there. As I got older and learned more i just became a stronger atheist. Years later, talking to my mother, I discovered that neither of my parents believed in God but had attended church for social reasons. They were good people. People to be proud of. They both had Christian funerals and I noted those of us who didn’t bow in prayer. You can bet there were others at that funeral who bowed out of fear of being discovered. You see, when you don’t bow your head the minister is looking right at you.  This country by European standards is a very religious country but it is made up of people who profess to believe, then there are the fundamentalists who insist the Bible is totally accurate, and then there are those who don’t want to give up on a god so they created intelligent design and then there are those in this country who owe no allegiance to their country because of their religious beliefs and then there is the great majority who profess there is a god but have never bothered to learn anything about there religion. Those are the ones when given this “And he gave his ......” can finish it without hesitation. These people don’t know that there were other gods before Jesus who was born to a human mother and fathered by a god and they did miracles including changing water to wine, like that is really important, That died and were resurrected. They don’t know this because they really don’t care about religion. The group that really amazes me is the group who insist the world would fall into chaos if there wasn’t a belief in god as though that is a valid reason for believing. That is just like saying there is a god because i want there to be one. They want you to believe that a god made us imperfect so he could punish us. When 240,000 people drown and countless others suffer from their losses, a person can say “God works in mysterious ways.” and then they will turn around and pray that they get a better job or a wart goes away or something. Why would a god help you with your itching skin and at the same time murder hundreds of thousands of people? I’m sure Hope2endure has the answer. One last thing - If we rely on an imaginary god to protect us more and more people will suffer until we go the way of the dinosaur. They were here for 300,000,000 years. Homo Sapiens has been here for what, less than a 100,000. If you can not comprehend the significance of our insignificance then you are indeed brain washed.

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By hope2endure, January 14, 2007 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Missy,

“Exodous 35:2 God demands that will kill everyone who works on the Sabbath.”

The Sabbath was given by God as a sacred sign between him and the sons of Israel. It served as a reminder of their deliverance from slavery in Eygpt and the Law covenant between themselves and Jehovah. It was to be a joyous day when they would cease from all labor and concentrate on taking in spiritual knowledge of God and attending to their spiritual needs. An ungrateful disregard for the sabbath contributed to the downfall of the nation of Israel. Exodus 31:16-17, 20:8-10; 24:7-8,Deuteronomy 5:12-15 & 6:4-9, Isaiah 58:13-14, Jeremiah 17:21-25.

“Deuteronomy 21:18-21 God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers”

When Israel was under the law covenant, it made provisions for unrepentant rebellious and disobedient ones. Notice it says “he is not listening to the voice of his father or his mother and they have corrected him but he will not listen to them” and “so you must clear away what is bad from your midst and all Israel will become afraid”. The son in this instance was and unrepentant drunkard and glutton which brought defilement into Israel.

“Leviticus 20:13 God demands that we kill homosexuals”

We are no longer under the Law covenant, the Israelites failed to live up to the Law, that is why Jesus said “let him who is without sin throw the first stone”. Under the new covenant that Jesus instituted, Jehovah alone will judge fornicatiors and adulterers ect. Jude 5-7, Romans 2:24-27, Genesis 18:20 & 19:1-11.

“Deuteronomy 22: 13-21 Women who marry that aren’t virgins should be stoned to death”

Under the old Law covenant, both men and women who were fornicators and adulterers could be put to death for sinning against God by profaning what was sacred. Leviticus 18:1-30, Matthew 19:9, Heb13:4

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By Roy Oetting, January 14, 2007 at 6:23 am Link to this comment
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Frank concedes that there was a Jesus. I’m not sure why he does that since his existence is solely based on the new testament which is not a history book. This is obvious when you read Luke and it sounds like the writer is present when Mary visits Elisabeth. The writer didn’t witness this visit he didn’t hear John rejoicing in the belly of Elisabeth nor did anyone else. This is a fabrication to support or make the religion that Paul created more spectacular. Why did Paul create this religion? Was it because he was on the outs with his girlfriend who was the daughter of the Rabbi at the temple where Paul worked. Paul had to leave the temple but all he knew was religion so he started writing about a new religion and he set rules that were preferred by the people of the time as opposed to the strict rules of Judism. The religion became popular, it spread and he lost control. People began to write about this Messiah and they used one of the Gospels to write the others but they still managed to screw up details about important things like the resurrection and even the proceedings of the crucifixion. No body knows who even wrote the Gospels or the other gospels that were thrown out by the church. Lets talk about prophecy. If you look at the original prophecy it sounds like this person is about to be born in David’s tribe while David is still alive. Now we have have an either or situation here , either Jesus is the son of Joseph and is indeed in the blood line of David even though he is born 14 generations later than prophesied. If he is the son of Joseph he is not the son of God. If Mary was impregnated by an angel he is not the son of Joseph and he does not fulfill the prophecy. Since I don’t believe any of it I only point this out to you that do. Some home work for you believers - What color was Jesus wearing on the way to the crucifixion? Who carried the cross? Read the four Gospels and tell me why you can’t answer those two questions. This is simple stuff how can it be this screwd up?

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By john sandoval, January 13, 2007 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment
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To Willis;
people who believe as you do have been fooled and brainwashed since childhood.
You would kill, as well as die for your beliefs.
I don’t even feel sorry for you !
May your God bless you brother.
Jonathan

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By Missy, January 12, 2007 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment
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Would ANY faith-based religous person care to respond as to why a supposedly loving GOD make these demands of his children?  I’m curious and would love a response.

Exodous 35:2 God demands that will kill everyone who works on the Sabbath. 

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers

Leviticus 20:13 God demands that we kill homosexuals

Deuteronomy 22: 13-21 Women who marry that aren’t virgins should be stoned to death

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By hope2endure, January 11, 2007 at 11:18 pm Link to this comment
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Frank said,

“That Mary and her family decided to lie about the event to prevent a certain death of Mary at the hands of religious fanatics for daring to become pregnant before she signed a contract with the families concerned, her father, Joseph’s father, and witnesses.”

Mary was already engaged to Joseph and was considered married to him. Engaged persons were required to get a divorce certificate to dissolve the engagement. Matthew 1:18-21.

“An ingenuous claim that he was a son of God. How many modern citizens of any nation would believe that today? None! How many of those people could read or write? Very few. Who would they believe? The ones who had a miraculous skill to write what they wanted to be believed. Written words carried magic to primitive people everywhere.”

The Jewish people, like others, had a long history of writing. Archaeologists have discovered that Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, Egypt, Syria and Persia had libraries of clay tablets of cuneiform script going back 4000 years or more.
The Jewish people were in expectation of the Messiah based on the many prophecies they studied and which Jesus fulfilled. He was:

Born of the tribe of Judah
From the family of David the son of Jesse
Born in Bethlehem
Born of a virgin
Babes killed after his birth
Called out of Egypt
Way prepared before him
Commissioned to preach
Ministry caused many in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great “light”
Spoke with illustrations
Carried our sicknesses
Zealous for Jehovah’s house
As Jehovah’s servant he would not wrangle in the streets
Not believed in
Entered into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass; hailed as king and as coming in Jehovah’s name
Rejected but becomes the chief cornerstone
Becomes stone of stumbling
One unfaithful apostle betrays him
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Disciples scatter
Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against the anointed of Jehovah
Tried and condemned
Use of false witnesses against him
Silent before accusers
Hated without cause
Struck, spit on
Impaled
Lots cast for garments
Numbered with sinners
Reviled while on the torture stake
Given vinegar and gall
Forsaken by God to enemies
No bones broken
Pierced
Dies a sacrificial death to carry away sins and open the way to righteous standing with God
Buried with the rich
In the grave three days, then resurrected
Raised before corruption
Jehovah declares him His Son by spirit begetting and by resurrection

See Genesis, Psalms, Micah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Malachai, Zechariah, Jonah.

“Jesus as God, or even as the Son-of-God, is the product of ignorance and incredulous lying.”

There is more secular historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Ceasar. Historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, Seneca, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Juvenal, Lucian and Celsus support the truth of the scriptural accounts. Sir Issac Newton stated that he found more sure evidence for the authenticity of the bible than any profane history.

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By Missy, January 11, 2007 at 11:08 am Link to this comment
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Comment #46797 by Frank Goodman, Sr.  on 1/10 at 6:02 pm

Great Comment Frank!  Very thought provoking…nevertheless, it will probably go unheeded by most who read it, without a cognitive reflection or synthesis of thoughts.  Too bad.  Very insightful.  It’s like tellng a wonderful riddle and then giving the audience a huge clue only to realize that they just blindly stare at you.  But on a positive note…who knows? Maybe not!

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., January 10, 2007 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment
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Jesus was a representative of all children born to unwed mothers in that part of the world. That Mary and her family decided to lie about the event to prevent a certain death of Mary at the hands of religious fanatics for daring to become pregnant before she signed a contract with the families concerned, her father, Joseph’s father, and witnesses.

As such, the marital status of the couple was in question. Now what to do with the child of the union? An ingenuous claim that he was a son of God. How many modern citizens of any nation would believe that today? None! How many of those people could read or write? Very few. Who would they believe? The ones who had a miraculous skill to write what they wanted to be believed. Written words carried magic to primitive people everywhere.

Jesus as God, or even as the Son-of-God, is the product of ignorance and incredulous lying.

It is not so surprising after the other Biblical lie about Sarah becoming pregnant with Isaac in old age who is the father of the Jewish people, after another attempt at arranging a surrogate mother of Ishmael. It is no leap of imagination to assume that the second attempt to get another woman to bear a son for Abraham succeeded in that time of ignorance and superstition. It is also ingenuous of those Children of Israel to succeed in such monstrous lies. Would you believe that a ninety year old woman barren all her life gave a natural birth to a kid? No!

The miracle is that so many people believe both lies.

In this time of science of surrogate mothers older than 60, and sperm banks and now embryo banks, many Gods are bound to be born. Each needs a Book to record the miracle of the birth of God to a couple from a frozen embryo from an embryo bank. You young Jewish women; the opportunity is wide open. One of you step up and make a credible claim to bear the true Messiah. With enough hoopla and a good publicist, you could bring it off. EVen in this day and age of advanced ignorance. Ignorance and superstition is well, indeed. Just read the comments in this site.

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By willis, January 8, 2007 at 11:44 am Link to this comment
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Roy,

When I say taking things out of context, I am referring to when you talk about killings in the bible and not really understand why the things in the bible happened. You take one example out of the bible and try to use it to prove your point, but yet you do not believe in the bible or GOD. I say if you don’t believe in the bible or GOD, then why do you try to make a point on selective things in the bible. If you want to make a point about the bible you must understand it first. If you truly understood it then you would see that GOD is LOVE. Just because you love your children do not mean you don’t discipline them. Remember GOD let his only bogotten SON Jesus Christ die on the cross, so when you talk about death or killing it does not mean the same to GOD as it mean to you and I. GOD let his son Jesus Die to save are souls and this is the same reson others in the bible diead or were killed. To GOD, moses, Abraham, etc are all still alive. To man Moses & Abraham are dead. Death at the hands of GOD was done to perserve the goodness in Man. It is his will as the creator. Knowone has all the answeres about why GOD does what he does, his knowlege is never ending while ours is limited. But reguardless of what you and I believe about what happened in the bible or why things happened the way they did, my point is simply that GOD wants us to love one another and thus GOD is Love. The problem with the world is if we are to be saved GOOD must overcome EVil and as you look around the world today, I see more evil that good. Sometimes GOD makes things happen to level the playing field (soem people get killed, out of Love, to save others from hell). Your disbelieve in GOD does not negate his existence.

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By Ro y Oetting, January 7, 2007 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment
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Willis, I didn’t state anything out of context. He is your god not mine. I don’t believe in a god. You stated “God is Love.” I only pointed out that the Bible says otherwise. Killing 70,000 people to punish somone else is not loving. It was just a story so don’t loose any sleep over it. The over 200,000 people who have died because Israel hasn’t given back the land they stole, that is real.

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By Willis, January 5, 2007 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment
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Thanks Hope2Endure,

I could have not made the point better than that.
I have read the bible but I do not have the time to quote every verse for you ROY. You seem to have the keen ability to take things from the bible and to use them out of context. When I respond to you it is based on the prime dirrect of the biblw and GOD which is LOVE. I do not have all the answers and reasons why GOD has chosen to do certain things. You may not understand why or I may not understand why GOD does what he does. That is why he says His WILL Be Done. He does not say your will or my will. I find some things in the bible hard to understand about death, but remember that it is the evil in one man that brought about dead in us all. We all will eventually die because of Adam and those who seek goodness in the eyes of the Lord will Live eternal life.

He who is the creator of us all has the right to bring death on anyone he chooses. We can not question GOD’s actions because he is our Master and it is his will to give and take life as he sees fit even if we do not understand or agree. He is the almighty and the all knowing. 

Remember don’t try to take one happening out of the bible and try to dweal on that, you have to keep reading it over and over and get an understanding of the bible in its entirety. I am not a Minister and I don’t go to Church evry Sunday. Some may even say that by looking at my own sins how could I even be religious. But the more time pass, the more I understand and have faith in GOD. The more I grow the more I see the purpose of the bible. Whether you believe or not it is important to look at the prime directive and the main goal, which is for everyone to love each other. Love, peace, happiness, selfishness, helpfulness, responsiblility, sharing, respect, and caring are some of the charateristics of goodness that GOD wants in people.

God purpose is not to kill, but it is the evil in man that brings about the destruction of man, if this were not the case then GOD would not even have created man to destroy him.

God wants man to do good so he can be close to GOd. But time and time again it is man who disobeyed GOD and this disobeydence is what brings about mans destruction and we can clearly see it in the world today. Look around at the crime, wars, drugs, and murders that man is commiting in the world. Look how Hitler killed millions of Jews and how during the slave trade from Africa to America how millions of Africans died just bring brought to America. These were all evil acts of man. GOD has been patient and have given man many chances, if he did not we all would be doomed.

I am sorry for not quoting from the bible ROY. But please don’t missunderstand this for making things up. I have not only read the bible, but the Koran, and the Tora also. I am not trying to influence anyones belief, but based on what I have read I am giving you my opionin just like you give yours. I have respect for what you and other think and believe, even if I disagree.

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By Roy Oetting, January 4, 2007 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment
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I made a mistake. I gave you to much information at one time. Let’s put aside all the children and infants that were murdered by the god in the Bible and just look at one case. The one I mentioned that makes several points at one time is when David takes a census of his troops and decides what he had done was wrong, so he apologizes to his god for doing it.
God then kills 70,000 men. 2Samuel 24:15. If someone had done something wrong it was David but God punishes a couple hundred thousand people. Do you see what is wrong with that?

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By hope2endure, January 4, 2007 at 11:22 am Link to this comment
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Roy says,

“The god of the Bible commits genocide on dozens of tribes. Most of the tribes were peaceful people but that didn’t keep your god from murdering everyone including infants and in some cases even their animals.”

The Canaanites, Amorites and other surrounding tribes, routinely practiced child sacrifice as well as other extremely detestable practices. Leviticus Chapter 18 clearly shows what practices were detestable in God’s sight. He allowed over 400 years to pass before executing judgement against them. Genesis 15:16. He told the Israelites “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, because by all these things the nations whom I am sending out from before you have made themselves unclean. Consequently the land is unclean and I shall bring punishment for its error upon it, and the land will vomit its inhabitants out. And you yourselves must keep my statutes and my judicial decisions, and you must not do any of all these detestable things…for all these things the men of the land who were before you have done so that the land is unclean.” Leviticus 18:24-27, Deuteronomy 18:9-12, 1st Kings 21:26, 2nd Kings 21:11

Notice that God said to the Israelites “Do not say in your heart when Jehovah your God pushes them away from you this,‘It was for my own righteousness that Jehovah has brought me in to take possession of this land’, whereas it is for the wickedness of these nations that Jehovah is driving them away from before you. It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going in to take possession of their land; in fact it is for the wickedness of these nations that Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you…” Deuteronomy 9:1-6, Romans 1:18-32, 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-9

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By Roy Oetting, January 4, 2007 at 8:58 am Link to this comment
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Hi Willis, Read the Bible. Don’t make stuff up. The Jews were the only people of god in the Bible. The god of the Bible commits genocide on dozens of tribes. Most of the tribes were peaceful people but that didn’t keep your god from murdering everyone including infants and in some cases even their animals. In other cases he lets the Jews take the animals (that’s called stealing). In one case he lets them taken the virgin girls but has everyone else murdered. In one case he has the heads mounted on sticks. Murder people and take their land. That almost sound like Israel today. On one occasion God kills over 50,000 people because they looked into the ark. On another occasion the god of the Bible kills over 70,000 jews because David takes a census. He killed his own people to punish one. I want to puke when i read this. This is a theme that runs through the old testiment. Some people are important, like David, Saul, and Moses but the rest aren’t important at all. They are there so god or the devil can do want they want to them. That is why people like Pat Robertson or President Bush can think that some how they are more important than the rest of us. God is Love? You have to be joking or out of your mind.

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By hope2endure, January 3, 2007 at 10:04 am Link to this comment
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“This is from a non-believer in religion and no disrespect is meant.

I have also heard that Jesus was an"amalgamation(?)” of 3 or more real people of that era.  Jesus is his given Latin name if I am correct and in his time, he would have had a different name .

Does someone have this other name?”

Jesus was not an amalgamation. Matthew Chapter 1 shows you his genealogy. He was called by several names. Jesus is the latin form of the Greek Iesous which corresponds to the Hebrew Yeshua or Yehohshua which means “Jehovah is Salvation”. It was not an uncommon name during that era according to Jewish historian Josephus of the 1st century CE. Because it was a common name, people added further identification, saying Jesus the Nazarene. Mark Chapter 10:47 & Acts Chapter 2:22

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By willis, January 2, 2007 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment
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What puts our speices at risk is us.
The belief in GOD does not put us at risk.
GOD did not create religion, man created religion out of faith in GOD to do GOD’s will. The problem with religion is that evil people use religion to hide behind and do evil works. the old testiment or new testiment is not about religion. Abraham did not have a religion nor did Moses or Jesus. The important thing was to follow GOD’s will.

So when you say the belief in GOD is putting us at risk, you first have to stop and ask what does the belief in GOD means?

The belief in GOD means to me:

1) Love GOD with all your heart & Mind
2) Love your neighbor as you love yourself

So in summary the belief in GOD is the belief in Love and anything that deviates from love is what puts us at risk. GOD is pure, but the problem is that people are not pure and it is wicked people who puts are species at risk. For without regligion at all, you will still have people who murder, steal, rob, cheat, lie and do other harmful things to mankind. Without the belief in GOD you will still have wicked people.

I think we need more belief in GOD and even more belief in religion to help people strive to do what is good. But we need more religous people to get along with each other. Many religions claim Abraham as their father, but why is it that Abraham had one GOD and was obeydient to GOD’s will and Abraham was not divided, but you have many religions that are divided and fight against each other but they all still claim father Abraham who obey one GOD. See GOD is still the same, but it is the wicked people who are diffent.

GOD is over us all, whether you belive in him or not. We are all GOD’s children. GOD loves us all the same. We come from the same man, Adam.
But in Adam there is Cane (evil) and Abale (good).
God wants us all to seek good. He does not want christians killing Jews, Jews killing Muslims, or Muslims killing Jews, or any combination of one religion against another. GOD sees us all as one people and does not separate us into religion, but he will seperate us into GOOD and EVIl and this is in every religion because good and evil is in human nature. They key is to supress your evil and do not give in to temptation. Strive to seek good in whatever you do, this is the true spiritual baptism that the bible speaks of.

So since there is good in evil in everyone and in every religion, we must seek goodness and in this goodness there you will find the belief in GOD.

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By Roy Oetting, January 1, 2007 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment
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Tony, god is imaginary. The belief in a god is obsolete. The belief in a god puts our species at risk. That is why I continue to argue.

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By Tony Wicher, December 29, 2006 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #1910 by Eugene Lehman on 1/16 at 5:32 pm

“As for god, the number of true gods is a nonnegative integer less than or equal to one.”

So you give us the alternative of monotheism or atheism, then? I don’t know how there could be a negative number of gods, but what have you got against polytheism? What’s wrong with Ra and Isis and Osiris? What’s wrong with Shiva and Ganesh and Krishna? They can’t be “true” gods but God or Jehovah or Aten or Allah or whatever the local name happens to be can? Why, because there is only one? Why can’t we have one Great Spirit manifested in infinitely many forms, religions, angels, gods? Why must we argue about religion? It is as foolish as arguing about taste.

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By Tony Wicher, December 28, 2006 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment
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The Bible as history is completely full of holes. There is virtually no historical evidence outside the Bible that anything recounted in either the New or the Old Testament actually happened. Of course, there is some real history mixed in with the folklore and the stories and legends and the ecclesiastical politics, but anybody who thinks that actual history was anything like what is recounted there is living in a fantasy. The accounts of Abraham and David and Solomon and Moses and all the rest are no more to be literally believed than the Garden of Eden. If Joshua making the sun stand still is incredible to any educated person, why should we take any of it at face value? If religion depends on believing these things are historically true, then religion is indeed nothing more than primitive superstition to be discarded in the course of human progress. If there is religious truth, it is independent of these historical myths.

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By willis, December 28, 2006 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment
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Roy,

The one who is created does not have the right to question the creator. God almighty has the right to make or destoy whomever he wishes.

When you say GOD killed or Murdered thousands of people, you have to put everything in context. When Adam disobeyed GOD by eating of the apple, this gave rise to the knowledge of good and evil. Before this Adam knew of no evil. But when Adam disobeyed GOD the world became divided into good and evil. This disobedence and division gave people the free will to choose good or evil. Because humans are so weak and tempemted by evil GOD had to bring about the detruction of groups of evil people so that there would be a chance for those who were good or seeking good. For to be reunited with GOD again we must seek goodness. So this one act of disobeydence of Amam brought about death in man by unlock the knowlede of good and evil. With Jesus dying for our sins, is the one act that brings about life for all mankind. So when you say killing people, you must understand that the people who were being killed were mainly the people who were follows of evil and sometimes good people had to suffer because of the evil ones.

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By Roy Oetting, December 27, 2006 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Peter, That’s from a quote isn’t it? Who said it?
Tony that’s a cheap shot. I just recently found out about the Toba eruption. The Toba eruption ocurred about 70,000 years ago and almost destroyed the human race. I mention this because the survirors of the volcanic eruption didn’t believe in any of todyas religions and yet they are out ancestors. The Bible wasn’t going to be written for another 65,000 years so how can the Bible have any kind of validity? Hinduism is what? 4000 years older than Judism. How can you your Bible and come away with the idea that God Is Love? From Genesis to Revelation God kills millions of people. Just in the old testiment I beleive someone added up the people which the Bible actually puts a number on and comes out to 4000000 people. That doesn’t count the flood. Throw in Revelation and you have billions of people being murdered. Yea, that’s a loving god all right. The Bible is the most obscene piece of literature I have read. God is imaginary, but the belief in a god is going to wind jeopardizing our own species. What else can I say?

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By Peter, December 26, 2006 at 3:31 am Link to this comment
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We all have opinions. But when we say “The Truth is…”, we must be able to back it up. Otherwise it is a lie.

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By Tony Wicher, December 18, 2006 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment
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What I say is that the historical existence of Jesus or any other religious teacher is of no importance; what is important is only the teaching. In the case of Jesus, the teaching, to put it simply, is that God is love. That’s all that really matters. Personally, I am amused by Ahmed Osman’s idea that Jesus was really King Tut. You won’t catch me trying to argue for it very strenuously, though.

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By Willis, December 13, 2006 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment
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Whether you believe in Jesus or not, there is no missunderstanding of what is written about his preachings of loving your neighbor. I do not have to see Jesus or GOD to have faith in the true and Divine Will of GOD: which is to love one another. Loving one another is the key. GOD is LOVE and religious teachings are all based on LOVE. The issue is that GOD gave us free will to choose between good and evil. Our weak bodies and minds are always tempted. We as humans, have a choice to make between good and evil. We all fall short of glory but the what is more important is that we contantly seek in are hearts and actions to do what is good and out of love knowing that we will have setbacks but keeping are eye on the prize (LOVE) on a constantly and never ending basis.

There will always be someone to dispute or dissagree with the existance of GOD, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad and others. But we can not dispute that this world would be a better place if we all focussed our energy on loving one another and treating one another with love and respect. with treating each other fair and like we would want someone to treat us. The problem arise from people trying to get over on other people, from jelousy and envy, from greed and power, which leads to the destruction of many. GOD wants us to follow the path of love because this is the key to the golded gates of heaven. I believe that it is not religion that is important but the kindness in your heart and action towards others that is important. How can a hatful, evil, jealous, greedy, selfish, power hungry person do any good for the human race. We all contain some degree of these awful charateristics and this is the goal of Religion and faith in GOD, is to help us reduce the degree of these evil charateristics in our heart and actions so that we will be exceptable to GOD and the human race.

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By Missy, December 13, 2006 at 7:36 am Link to this comment
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To M.A. Earl

Intelligent and interesting you are…please…more!

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By Mark Graves, November 28, 2006 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment
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Jesus: The Man, The Myth.  Since Jesus was “just a man,”  it seems rather absurd that so many people spend so much time on the matter.  The rampent fundamentalism in Christianity and other religions is truly frightening. 

It’s all a waste of intellectual energy that needs to be directed to the more urgent issues of the present.  Who Jesus was and what, if anything, the significance of him and his teachings, or those attributed to him, are discussions better left to leisure talk over a good cup of coffee.  Moral behavior, social justice, and ethical treatment of our fellow man doesn’t require adherence to the laws a god.  The god concept is quaint. 

The current events in the world are proof enough of a rather impotent almighty, for I’m sure the creator of the universe certainly doesn’t need humans to do it’s bidding to rid the world of evil, etc.  If it does, god has been and is a cruel manipulator of it’s created beings

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By Matoswynn, November 28, 2006 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
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I thought there was no historical proof of Jesus’ existence. 

To quote the site http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm:

“Amazingly, the question of an actual historical Jesus rarely confronts the religious believer. The power of faith has so forcefully driven the minds of most believers, and even apologetic scholars, that the question of reliable evidence gets obscured by tradition, religious subterfuge, and outrageous claims. The following gives a brief outlook about the claims of a historical Jesus and why the evidence the Christians present us cannot serve as justification for reliable evidence for a historical Jesus.

ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.”

Maybe, if we could free ourselves from a meme we have been raised since an impressionable age to believe to be real we could really look at the history around the time period of the occupation of the ancient Jewish state by the Romans.  Rather, the way historians look at the desperation of American Indians turning to the Ghost Dance under the overwhelming oppression and genocidal tactics of the Americans.  (I am American Indian.)

There is a fascinating way the human mind works to find meaning in the world.  That is more interesting than any “god” figure.  The whole movement in the world at that time centered around these concepts of rebirth of a god like Mithras and were latered incorporated and centered on a figure named Jesus.  It would seem to be mental ladder upon which initiates to this mystery could understand the world in all its qualities of injustice and the constant promise of a better world.

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By Ken Schreier, November 22, 2006 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment
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Willis:

Each one of us has the spirit of God within us !
In Genesis it says, “And God formed man from the earth and he blew into his nostrils the soul of life and man became a living being”.
Each of us has part of God in us, the soul, without it we would cease to exist and return to the ground !
Jesus was no different, nor does he claim to be anything more than the “son of man”.
We have no argument. It is not important as to whether Jesus was immortal or mortal, the only thing that matters is his teachings “To love one another as I loved you” !
The body is mortal & the soul immortal, because it comes from the immortal God !
We are all part mortal and immortal !

God Bless

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By willis, November 22, 2006 at 8:07 am Link to this comment
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ken,

I believe that Jesus spirit came from GOD.
It is not his body which makes him the Son of GOD, but it is his Spirit. For to come from GOD and to return to GOD, Jesus could not be in the human body that he was in. This is why his human body was able to be killed and people see him as just a man. But his heavenly spirit and heavenly body are eternal and comes from the Father and this is why people see him as the Son of GOD.

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By Ken Schreier, November 20, 2006 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment
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Willis My Friend !
So I guess, by your theory, today, 2000 years later, The human race must be even more advanced in its knowledge of God then in the time of Jesus ?
And yes we are !
We can now see that Jesus was a flesh and blood Jewish rabbi and not a “Son of God” created by the union of the Almighty with a human virgin !
Jesus was a Jew who broke from the mainstream teachings of the Pharises ! Jesus was more in line with the Essen’s teachings ! They were another group of Jews who were more spiritual and pure in their concepts of God and the relations between fellow human beings !
So, as I have told you before, Love one another my friend, it is the main teachings of Moses & Jesus !

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By Ken Schreier, November 20, 2006 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment
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To Bryan:

I am going to make this short !
I can tell by your language that you are not a follower of Jesus !
So my friend, get it straight !
Jesus was a Jewish man, he was not the only begotten “Son of God” or did he claim to be.
Jesus said “I am the son of man” !
We are all the sons & daughters of the one and only God !
Most of the New Testament writers did not even know Jesus !
Jesus was first supposed to be the Messiah, then future gospel writers decided to change him into being the one and only begotten “Son of God” !
The Messiah is a Jewish concept. Jesus was Jewish and would never have stated he was anything more then a prophet, which is what the “son of man” statement means !
Believe as you wish, that is your right !
Everything I have told you is the gospel truth !
You need to read the teachings of Moses & Jesus and learn to love one another !

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By willis, November 20, 2006 at 10:55 am Link to this comment
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Ken, A reply to your comment 38600

First of all I do not dislike Jews, Christians, Muslims or any other persons or religion. It is not in my nature to hate people. Once again you are misinterpreting the bible and now you are misintrepreting what I have said. If I write in Capitals it is because I hit the cap lock key - dont go over board and take it to mean hating jews, I have not said one bad thing about any religion. I have much respect for all religion because I think religion in general comes from GOD, but man has misinterpreted a lot of it and forget that the main purpose is to bring forth love & peace and to live together help each other.

The Law of Moses was the first covenant that GOD made with his people, but the new covenant was the writing of the Laws in your hearts and mind. What Jesus did was to show us how to forfill these laws. The main thing to point out is that in Moses time there was a need to have laws and customs because people’s understanding was limited. When Jesus came people understand was more advance and it was time to give them more insight into the understanding of GOD’s will. Just like when you are a baby and you are told not to touch a stove (because it can burn you) - this is similar to the laws GOD gave Moses. When you get older then you are ready to understand more, like what parts of the stove you can touch and how to properly use the stove for good purposes so you dont get burned - this is similar to Jesus teachings (giving us a better understand of the current Laws GOD gave Moses).

As far as Jesus saying he was the messiah.
Do you not recall when the high priest ripped his clothes and said blasphemy when Jesus said he was the son of GOD. I will find the exact scripture from the bible and will list it for your reference when I have more time.

Jesus said that GOD was in Him and he was in GOD.
Jesus also said that he was in his disciples and his disciples was in him. There are previous replies I have sent in regarding my opionion on if Jesus is the son of GOD.

My opinion is that you have to seperate the physical from the spiritual. Physically I believe that Jesus was a man, but I also believe that his spirit came from GOD thus making him apart of GOD. I do not believe that he is the Father or equal in power to the Father but because of his rightiousness and goodness that he is the example of Love and obediance to the will of GOD. He sits on the right hand of GOD because of his likeness and obeydance to GOD’s will.

I use to get caught up in whether to believe if Jesus was the son of GOD or not. Now I don’t get so much caught up in that debate because simply put, when I look into the life of Jesus, I see a display of the type of love, peace, and obeydence to GOD’s will which makes him apart of GOD. I also think that if we stives to love one another in heart, mind and body that we too will be apart of GOD.

PS. please excuse my capital letters and misspelling, but they are not intent to mean I hate someone or somegroup.

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By Bryan, November 19, 2006 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment
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Ken Schreier said:
“Jesus stated in Matthew “Not everyone who says Lord God will come into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day: Lord, God, did we not preach in your name, and in your name did we not cast out demons, and in your name did we not assume great powers ? And then I shall admit to them: I never knew you. Go from me, for you do what is against the law”.
Do you see how Jesus tells his followers, I am not God, only the laws of my Father are to be followed ! The Father he is talking about is the God of Israel ! The law he is talking about is the teachings of Moses !”

Ummm… you got to be mentaly challenged. Did you not read the scripture you just posted… Jesus says, “Many will say to me on that day: Lord, God”........ Jesus says many will come to “HIM” and call HIM, “LORD GOD”!!!!!!!!!

And they will say how they cast out daemons in HIS NAME! That would be Jesus’s Name!!! Because he is LORD GOD!!!!

Can YOU not see, Jesus is siting at the right hand of God and telling people they are not admitted to the kingdom because “HE KNEW THEM NOT”. JESUS knew them not. It’s JESUS who is casting them away.

Where did you get what you are talking about from????? Your an idiot???

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By Ken Schreier, November 17, 2006 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment
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To Willis - Your comment#38533

When you say that “Jesus was put on Earth as an example to show how we should live”, are not all righteous people put on Earth as an example of how we should live our lives ?
Jesus was a Jew, I do not think he would like your tone against “JEWS” in general, as you write in upper case form to signify your dislike of them!
Jesus taught the teachings of Moses, there was no gospel written at that time !
Jesus never said he was the Messiah, he said “I am the son of man” !
The son of man ,in the Hebrew scriptures, always means a flesh and blood human who the divine spirit speaks through !
Jesus’s followers were Jewish , the Jews were also the people he was teaching!
I think you should review your New Testament and realize it was not written by Jesus, but by mortal men who did not even know Jesus !
These were stories passed down and changed as the years went on !
Jesus stated in Matthew ” Not everyone who says Lord God will come into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day: Lord, God, did we not preach in your name, and in your name did we not cast out demons, and in your name did we not assume great powers ? And then I shall admit to them: I never knew you. Go from me, for you do what is against the law”.
Do you see how Jesus tells his followers, I am not God, only the laws of my Father are to be followed ! The Father he is talking about is the God of Israel ! The law he is talking about is the teachings of Moses !
So, my friend , do not hate Jesus’s own people and do not disrespect his teachings by making him into the one and only ” Son of God” !
Jesus never proclaimed to be the “Son of God” or the Messiah ! It was his followers, who were Jews, who said he was the Messiah !
Jesus would have been very angry to hear that he was made into the one and only “Son of God” ! Never was this to be the case.
It was gospel writers who never knew Jesus that made him into a god !
Truly , this is pagan Hellenism in the time Jesus lived !
Pagan gods always came down to conjoin with human virgins and have half mortal & immortal children !
Again, Jesus, a Jew, would never have approved of this concept !
So, I think it would be best for you to reviewv the teachings of Moses & Jesus !
The main thing is to love thy neighbor and to be kind and just to your fellow person !

Peace my friend

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By willis, November 17, 2006 at 9:20 am Link to this comment
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Jesus Mother & Father are not mentioned much in the bible. His mother is only mentioned a tad bit more than the father. The important thing to note is that it is not about Mary or Joseph and therefore this is why they are not mentioned much. they were not dead beat parent, but they were just not the main significance of the bible of Jesus teachings. Jesus was put on earth to be an example of the way people should live, he came to forfill the law not to get rid of it. He came to do the will of GOD and this was the only thing that was important to mention in the bible. Jesus was in a house and someone said your mother and brothers are outside looking for you. Jesus said those who do the will of GOD are my mother and bothers.

The JEWS that had Jesus killed did not say in any way that he was the Savior of the Jewish people. The people who Jesus was teaching said that he was the Messiah and Jesus confessed as being the Messiah. The people who was responsible for his death, had him Killed because they were Jealous of the Power and the following that Jesus was accumulating. It is Jealousy and Thirst for Power which caused Jews in power to have Jesus killed.
So actually it is the same things since the begining of time (Jealousy, Power, Envy) has corupted man and still is corupting man. This is what causes man to drum up the wrong interpretation of the bible and religion.

When you really look at religion and GODliness I don’t know of any better teacher than the teachings of JEsus that tells us and helps us into understanding how to live with love and peace in our hearts.

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By Ken Schreier, November 16, 2006 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment
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OK People, this is the story:

Jesus was a Jew, everybody knows that !
So, Jesus, the Hebrew name is Yahoshua, was a person who was born Jewish and had a mother who’s Hebrew name was Miriam & a father named Yosef !
It is very evident that somewhere along the line Yosef, his father, disappeared from the picture.
This is nothing new. Irresponsible fathers often get the woman pregnant and disappear from the picture !
Well, in those days, if a child was born, and did not have a father living together in marriage with its mother, it was looked upon in a very poor light !
So, it is pretty clear that Jesus grew up not knowing who his father was !
We know nothing about Jesus’s formative years.
He suddenly appears and there is only the knowledge that he is a carpenter !
Well, we see him preaching around the country side and spreading the teachings of Moses to his fellow Jews.
At that time there were few books and most people could not read.
The Law of Moses was taught VERBALLY by men who were well versed in the teachings of Moses.
They were most likely from the priestly family of Levites and Pharises who had access to the holy writings which were past down from generation to generation !
Jesus, as a young boy, must have listened to many of these lectures. As he grew up he must have become very frustrated at the way things were being run by the TEMPLE priests and Roman occupation, in opposition to the teachings he was taught !
Jesus then decide, as did many Jews, to protest against the ruling powers at that time.
He broke from the mainstream Jews, the Pharises, and started to follow the ways of the Essens.
The Essens were a more spiritual group of people who opposed the ways of the Temple leadership and Roman occupation !
Jesus , because of his teachings, becomes a danger to the Jewish leadership, because their religious authority over the people is being questioned.
The Jewish Leadership decides that they have to get rid of this rebel Jewish brat !
They accuse him of being the JEWISH SAVIOR, in Hebrew, Moshiach, who will liberate the Jews from Roman rule !
They accuse him before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, who decides to crucify him for being the King of the Jews and thus committing treason against Cesar punishable by death ! !     
This is basically it.
Another righteous person murdered for bringing the truth out into the open !
Nothing new, it is happening while I am writing this article. 
Who Jesus was, we know, a Jewish man who wanted to tear down the current political & corrupt powers that were and bring the Kingdom of GOD, that is truth, down to Earth.
Jesus died a man, a Jew who believed in the teachings of Moses and tried to teach them to his fellow Jews !
Jesus never left Judea, Jesus only preached to his fellow Jews, Jesus died a man who believed that if you truly spread the word of THE ALMIGHTY to his children, that GOD would return and save them from their oppressors !
Well he was murdered, nailed to a wood cross and became to the pagan world that murdered him, The Son of God !!! To the Jews who brought their brother before the Romans to have them execute him, the destruction of their Temple and the loss of their country and exile to the four corners of the Earth !
How fitting for and just for a man who gave his very life for the spreading of GOD’S teachings to his fellow human beings !
May our Father in Heaven & Earth bring the Messianic age soon and may all the righteous rejoice in the light of their Heavenly Father ! AMEN !

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By gilroyaden, November 5, 2006 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment
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man is confuse we dont know where we comes from, we dont know where we at, we certainty dont know where we going to. we live in a believe system nothing with fact. religion causes division between human every one believes their religion is right and every one else is wrong.  the thing we need to realize is that we are oneanother no man is an island no man stands alone, all we as to do is lose the power to wound and change our religion to love for humanity only then we will live in peace and bliss.

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By willis, October 30, 2006 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment
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First of all don’t confuse me with a religious fanatic. I am open to other people’s point of views and all religious and non religious point of views.

You ask me to summon GOD to prove his existance.
Why would you think his existance is not already present. We you breathe the air through your lungs it shows GODs existance. When you eat the fresh vegetables that GOD allows to grow it shows his existance. When it rains or the wind blows it shows his existance.

GOD is everywhere, but it is not about what you or I want, only his will is important. But he allows us to make decisions and he allows good and bad things to happen, this is what is meant by free will.

I do no get so stuck on the specifics of religion because I think you are right about people trying to make the bible say what they want. But I tell you this, along you may find contradiction in the details of reading due to translations being incorrect. You will find no conflict in the prime directive of GOD and the bible, which is for us to love one another.

So when you truly look at the fanatics of religion who are will to cause destruction and kill in the name of GOD this is really not of GOD but of man. Man will use the bible for evil purposes and have been doing that for ever.
So misinterpreting the scriptures having been going on since there were scriptures.

There will always be people who bend the truth to there advantage and it hurts people and make people like you disbelieve because all you see is the minipulation of religion.

I belive there is one GOD and he wants us all to love each other and to love him. If you read the bible, Koran, or any other religious words and they are not consistant with loving one another then there you will find man’s influence & thirst for money or power. This is what gives relion a bad name. But in the puriest of Religion GOD just wnats us to show love.

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By Adrian, October 30, 2006 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment
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This is a thoughtful article, but written from a totally human perspective.  Man has for centuries sought to understand the truth about a God - but the Bible indicates that God is seeking us.  If you give Him a chance He will find you.

“If the Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.” 2 Corinthians 4:3

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By Gary, October 29, 2006 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment
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Hey Willis et al:

I too have read the bible and quran, and they are so full of parables, double speak, outright exaggerations and contradictions that no one could possible understand just exactly what this jesus of yours was talking about.  The bible can be interpreted any way anyone wishes.
So I have an idea that will solve the worlds religious problems right now.  Whistle up this god of yours immediately and get him/her down here.  I’m tired of the rhetoric from you religious fanatics.  I want the word straight from the horses mouth.  Is it christianity, islam, mormonism, scientology, 7th day adventists, christian scientists, episcopalians, jewish, baptists, catholics, greek orthodox, gnosticism or what? 
It’s way past time for this god of yours to show up instead of being an absentee parent.  No more of your idiotic free will or, you just gotta believe arguements.  Get him down here right now or all of your arguements are baseless.  You have absolutely no proof at all that your god or jesus existed, except some book that was written some 2000 years ago by persons unknown who weren’t even present when jesus allegedly walked the earth, and never personally witnessed what they have written. 
Wake up and smell the coffee.  (And no, I’m not mad, just tired of the ridiculousness of the religious in this country.  As a question, just how does it work that church members feel that it is perfectly ok for a priest who isn’t married, who doesn’t have kids, who is a pedophile to give advise on family, child rearing and marriage?)

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By willis, October 27, 2006 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment
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Evolution was created by man and you believe in it. There is no proof that evolution was the cause of the existance of the earth but yet because a scientist tells you this you believe it. Well we use to think that the earth is round. Do you still beleive that. See sience is about trying to figure out the things that GOD already knows. I don’t believe in evolution as far as creating humans and the world but I do think that we all evolve, even in the bible man has evolved. But we don’t see any apes still turning into humans today, do we? Don’t confuse Religion we GOD they are two different things. GOD has always existed, but religion is just an orginized way of trying to do the will of GOD which is to love your neighbor and love GOD (one in the same). Jist becuase there is religion and people doing things in the name of religion doesn’t mean they are doing the correct things that GOD wants them to do. Any act of hurt is not what GOD wants. GOD wants us to love each other no matter what religion. Be careful in quoting the bible because you have to look at the entire bible and then it is still hard to understand the details in the bible. I believe the basic principle in the reading is to increase your understanding of the prime directive of loving your neighbor.

Evolution would have you to believe that all of a sudden that there was a big bang and from that we all evolved. I would have you believe that GOD always existed and he created the big bang to bring the world and us into existance. I do not believe the world came from nothingness I believe the world came from something that was greater than the world and I call that GOD.

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By Roy Oetting, October 27, 2006 at 8:41 am Link to this comment
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Willis,
  I recommend that you study evolution. It is difficult to comprehend but over time things mutate, they evolve. The majority of the science community doesn’t have difficulty understanding that humans, homo sapiens, are just another primate. One problem I have in understanding is why so many people believe in a religion whose basis is only 5000 years old when there other religions which are much older. Doesn’t this make believing in Judism or Christianity or Islam less credible? Ask yourself what god were humans worshipping 40,000 years ago? They weren’t worshipping your god. According to the Bible, God walked with Abraham, Moses and David. Where is he today? My concern is that religion is holding mankind back and putting our species at risk. All we need is a nut for President who believes in Revelation who then tries to destroy this world in the name of his god. President Bush has said that he has done things as President because he felt they were God’s will. This thread was started to ask the question “Who was Jesus?” and my answer to that is he certainly wasn’t the Son of God if he ever existed. There once was a man named Saul who changed his name to Paul and because of a dream I want to scream because of it he created Christianity. The one obvious case of creationism is man creating god.

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By willis, October 25, 2006 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment
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Lola,

If there is no GOD, how do you explain the coming into existance creatures, humans and environmental systems that are so complex. Surely, being so complex we had to come from a being that is beyond our thoughts on natures of complexity!

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By Lola, October 24, 2006 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment
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There is no god.

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By Bryan, September 18, 2006 at 8:43 am Link to this comment
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This article is so bias its not even funny. This so called “truth” is highly debated among intellectuals on both side of the arguement but by reading this article and such slanted comments like “Therefore while much of this truth has been known in the academy” you are left to think that there is no debate.

Its the same old post modern liberal theology, that C.S. Lewis was fighting against in his life time, and its anything but “truth”.

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By Bryan, September 15, 2006 at 10:14 am Link to this comment
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Roy Oetting you simply need to read more about the Nazi triumph of reason and intellect over ignorant blind faith and religion. And Hitler denounced his Catholicism. And any open political connection between to Nazis’ and the already organized church was used to minipulation the masses and had nothing to do with the ideology or belief system. If you know anything about Nazis ideals and the world logic it is the extreme of reason. So is Communism, which has killed more people than religion has ever come close too. It is a fact and not an opinion that SECULAR ideologies have led to more death and destruction than all the religions put together…. You have simply been lied to your entire life… you have been brain washed… and its no ones fault but your own because the facts are out their and free to everyone…free your mind, do the research yourself.

We are not bee’s, we are not ants, I understand this, and I too use the same argument for my own purpose as well. You take the same evidence I do for my beliefs and twist it around to where it makes totally no since at all and you can only do this by looking at half of the picture. The only way you can look at the difference between the animal kingdom and man and equate that difference to the belief in god, requires you to ignore the huge amount of time and other early societies and even societies to this day where man still kills each other without any concept or belief in God what so ever. Yes, man is ONE OF the only creature that kills its own. But it does so even when the society has no concept of god. Your equation doesn’t fit.

Wait a minute… ants don’t drive cars either.. maybe it’s the use of cars the drive man to kill each other? Or toilet paper… yes that’s it… man is the only species that wipes its but on paper… maybe that’s the cause of all the problems in the world.

Did the belief in God cause the Columbine shooting too? Oh wait… no that was caused by the belief in Atheism… that’s right, never mind.

But you forget about the rest of mans faults. Once again you only look at half of the picture. If god is to blame for the killing of others… how do you explain mans killing of himself? And yes man is THE ONLY creature that kills itself. Many creatures in the wild have been known to kill its own species but man IS THE ONLY creature that kills itself. If not through direct suicide then through self destructive means of self indulgence such as drugs and other excess of pleasures. And not always excess of pleasures… many times simply out of a love of pain and hurt and misery… how does the belief in God cause that? IT CANT… your belief doesn’t explain the full picture… but mine does. My belief about the fall of man, the ideal that man has fallen from its true intention and it true potential… is the only belief that explains the world in its entirety. THE ONLY ONE. GENESIS is the only key that explains it all.

Remember one does not come to believe when something proves it to be so, one comes to believe when IT proves everything else to be so.

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By willis, September 14, 2006 at 10:24 am Link to this comment
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Hi Roy,

Religion to me is only a tool to help us follow GOD’s will of love. So whether a religion was around for a short time period or a longer time period, GOD has been around for ever so this is what is important. Religion only attempt to bring us closer to GOD.

See GOD gave us free will to select evil or good.
This is why when people say how could GOD let this or that bad thing happen, it is just free will and chance that is happening. If he controlled us all without giving us freedom then there would be no need for judgement at the end of time.

People had limited understanding so they worshipped to GOD directly and religion came along to improve our understanding and communication.

I think the teaching of Jesus is ver important in showing us how to love one another.

If GOD let his own son suffer at the hands of humans then why would anyone think we are above suffering.

But the key thing we must remeber is to show love and to do good deeds, I think that even if you don’t believe in GOD you still will be considered as one who believes if your actions are good and your thought are pure.

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By Roy Oetting, September 14, 2006 at 1:14 am Link to this comment
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Hi Willis,
I would like to quote you -“Since the beginning of religion you had JEWs, Christians, and Musilums doing hateful things in the name of their religion.“
The biggest problem with this is that Islam wasn’t invented by Mohammad until the seventh century. It has only been around 1300 years or so. Christianity didn’t start until sometime in the first century so it is less than 2000 years old. According to Judism the universe is less than 6000 years old. The millions of people who lived before then must have been floating around in space. Just kidding they were living here on earth because Judism was wrong about the very basics. Those people back then had gods. Gods were probably created by man very soon after they learned to communicate. God was the answer for everything they couldn’t understand.  Today we understand a lot more. We should have outgrown the need for a god by now but mankind is like the little girl who doesn’t want to give up her pacifier.  The difference is that believing in a god isn’t going to screw up your teeth.

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By Roy Oetting, September 13, 2006 at 7:22 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Willis,
I would like to quote you -“Since the beginning of religion you had JEWs, Christians, and Musilums doing hateful things in the name of their religion.“
The biggest problem with this is that Islam wasn’t invented by Mohammad until the seventh century. It has only been around 1300 years or so. Christianity didn’t start until sometime in the first century so it is less than 2000 years old. According to Judism the universe is less than 6000 years old. The millions of people who lived before then must have been floating around in space. Just kidding they were living here on earth because Judism was wrong about the very basics. Those people back then had gods. Gods were probably created by man very soon after they learned to communicate. God was the answer for everything they couldn’t understand.  Today we understand a lot more. We should have outgrown the need for a god by now but mankind is like the little girl who doesn’t want to give up her pacifier.  The difference is that believing in a god isn’t going to just screw up your teeth.

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By Roy Oetting, September 13, 2006 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment
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Bryon,
  I have to admit that i have not read Nazi doctrine. I do know that Hitler was a Catholic. He believed in the three K’s for the women of Germany (Children, kitchen and church). [ In German they all start with K] The problem is that history is written by the victors. Recently i saw a special where Nazis where destroying crosses but the picture they showed was a picture of a bombed out church with one thing still standing, a cross. That picture actually was proof that they weren’t destroying crosses but because of the words overlaid on the picture the viewer was to assume what they were saying was true. Who knows how the church was blown up? Why wasn’t the cross destroyed?
  Stalin was paranoid nut job and his paranoia kept him in power. Nut jobs seem to float to the top regardless of religious beliefs. Look who is president. 
  Man has survived so far because nature gave him the tools to succeed. Our ability to work with others and to repsect others are traits that have pemitted us to coexist, not a god. Many religious people say that without religion we would rape and murder. You only have to look at other animal species to see the rules which have permitted them to survive. The harmony of an ant colony or bee hive.  Those are only two examples. Think of more social animals see how they work together. None of them believe in a god, do they?

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By Bryan, September 13, 2006 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment
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“”“"Imagine all the people…. shareing all the world…. woohuuu wooohuuuuuu….”“”“

Okay john lennon… oh, i mean, Roy Oetting…sorry about that….

Lets take a little slice of history and test your little theory their… Hmmm societies that have thrown religion “out the window” as you would like would include… communism, stalinism, nazism… ummm? is there any more, that we would like to add???????????

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By willis, September 13, 2006 at 11:43 am Link to this comment
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Roy,

I will repeat what I said since it seems there is some misunderstanding.

I said:

I have read the Bible 5 times and the Koran once and I conclude they both are trying to get people to love each other. So when either a Christian or Muslim has hate for each other then this is truly a sin of GOD. GOD created us all and loves us all - not just Christians or not just Muslims or not just Jews or any other religion. I believe GOD does not even look at religion but people hearts and deeds.

So Roy,

you said:
All we have to do is throw religion into the trash and realize that we all belong to one large family. We could then take care of one another. We could learn to respect one another. We could love one another.

Can you see that you said kinda the same things as I was saying about “Love is not specific to religion”. My point exactly - I was putting GOD, who is Love, at the top of religion because this is what religion is all about but we get caught up into what the Book of Revelations or some other bible chapter said and we take things out of context.

What I said was God is Love. I did not say or imply that religous people are full of love. There are many religous people who do hateful things and try to justify it with religon. Since the begining of religion you had JEWs, Christians, and Musilums doing hateful things in the name of their religion.

My point was that in the true sense of religion and GOD, only good works and LOVE are the true will of GOD and so when you interpret things from different religions it must not violate loving your neighbor (even if he believes in another religion) because we all belong to GOD no matter what religion, he made us all, but man made religion even if it was inspired by GOD.

So to me the most important thing is that before you commit some action, ask yourself if this action is a good deed or bad deed? Will this deed hurt anyone? Then if we all choose LOVE in our actions this world would be a better place because there is only one true religion and that is the religion of Loving each other -  which is GOD’s Will.

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By willis, September 13, 2006 at 11:38 am Link to this comment
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Roy,

I will repeat what I said since it seems you did not get it. I said:

I have read the Bible 5 times and the Koran once and I conclude they both are trying to get people to love each other. So when either a Christian or Muslim has hate for each other then this is truly a sin of GOD. GOD created us all and loves us all - not just Christians or not just Muslims or not just Jews or any other religion. I believe GOD does not even look at religion but people hearts and deeds.

So Roy,

you said:
All we have to do is throw religion into the trash and realize that we all belong to one large family. We could then take care of one another. We could learn to respect one another. We could love one another.

Can you see that you said kinda the same things as I was saying about “Love is not specific to religion”. My point exactly - I was putting GOD, who is Love, at the top of religion because this is what religion is all about but we get caught up into what the Book of Revelations or some other bible chapter said and we take things out of context.

What I said was God is Love. I did not say or imply that religous people are full of love. There are many religous people who do hate and try to justify it with religon. Since the begining of religion you had JEWs, Christians, and Musilums doing hateful things in the name of their religion.

My point was that in the true sense of religion and GOD, only good works and LOVE are the true will of GOD and so when you interpret things from different religions it must not violate loving your neighbor (even if he believes in another religion) because we all belong to GOD no matter what religion, he made us all.

So to me the most important thing is that before you are about to commit some action, ask yourself is this a good deed or bad deed? Will this deed hurt anyone? Then if we all choose LOVE in our actions this world would be a better place because there is only one true religion and that is the religion of Loving each other -  which is GOD’s Will.

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By Roy Oetting, September 13, 2006 at 9:08 am Link to this comment
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Willis, I refer you to comment 22280 of 07 Sep. I don’t want to repeat myself so this time I am not going to explain how silly it seems that man could think he was made in gods image. This time I’m going to talk about love and hate. You say you read the Bible five times but some how you forgot that the Jews invented genocide or should I say they committed genocide for their god. They eradicated complete cultures not leaving anyone to live, not even babies. I don’t call that love. In the book of revelation, who goes to heaven first? 144,000 Jewish boys. Why do you suppose that? Could it be that the early Christian church was divided into two factions, Jewish converts and gentiles. The Jews don’t think of Judism as just a religion but also as a race. They believe they are gods chosen. They hate Moslems. Moslems hate Jews, Americans and Hindus. The rest of the world is being real quiet and hope they won’t be noticed. It doesn’t have to be this way. All we have to do is throw religion into the trash and realize that we all belong to one large family. We could then take care of one another. We could learn to respect one another. We could love one another. I was just visiting a site that I would call a techi site. The men at this site were from all over the world. They were sharing ideas and paying compliments and calling one another by their first names and nick names.  You could feel the mutual respect. Besides enjoying what they were accomplishing I also was enjoying the way human beings can work together. It would be easy to say that religion will go on as it is for centuries but I think technology and the internet will make our young people realize what is real and myth and hopefully religion will cease to exist except for the hill billies of the world who refuse to think.

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By Etherfish, September 11, 2006 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment
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I agree. I don’t believe in the bible or koran although there are lots of good things in them. The best things in the bible are the teachings of jesus, but i think he knew what people would do with words if they were written down.
i meditate for an hour a day and believe that is where God is to be found; not in what other people tell you, or what is written in a book. If you have desire and devotion to find God you will find him, and he is in complete peace and not a party to any hate. That’s manmade.
God created evolution; it’s not against him.

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By Willis, September 11, 2006 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment
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I have a BS in Electrical Engineering & a MS in Statistics. Being a technical person one may think a would belong to the group of people who do not believe in GOD. Furthermore, there are some technical people who would tend to believe in the theory of evolution.

The longer I live and the wiser I get, the more I believe in GOD. My technical background enhances my belief in GOD. When I look at how complicated machines are and how complicated the human body is, I find it very hard to believe that we complicated beings came from some big bang of simple nothingness. Furthermore, I do no believe that evolution negates the existence of GOD. Even if the theory of evolution was true, GOD is responsible would be reponsible for this also. One day for GOD can be like a thousand days for humans. As we read the bible there are translation that make it hard to understand, there are stories that serve as communication guide to us and not to be taken as real events, and we must understand that in early times communication was more primitive than now so we must put ourselves in the mind frame of the poeple during those times to better understand the bible even if it applies to us today.

I do think that evil poeple use religion as a tool for power and money. When this happens it turns people away from religion and cause them to become unbelievers.

When you take a closer look at religion I do believe that some things seem to be made up, but I believe what really happened is different religions have just been inspired by the same GOD.

I believe that there is one GOD who has touch many nationalities and based on people’s experineces or revelations involving GOD, so called religion was born.

But, what you will find in common with all religion is love and GOD is love. Those who preach hate are not following the true prime directive of what religion is based on. since it was based on GOD and GOD is love then anything that is taken out of religious scriptures and use to inflect pain on people is just a tool of minupilation and not pure in the sense of religion or GOD. 

See I believe GOD (Love)is more important than religion. We get so caught up in rituals and paying honor to the priest and ministers that we forget about the prime directive of what religion was created for - LOVE.

I have read the Bible 5 times and the Koran once and I conclude they both are trying to get people to love each other. So when either a Christian or Muslim has hate for each other then this is truly a sin of GOD. GOD created us all and loves us all - not just Christians or not just Muslims or not just Jews or any other religion. I believe GOD does not even look at religion but people hearts and deeds.

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