Fran…talking to himself again and again and again…..very sick dude.

TWIMC
I gave you specific reasons why I did not believe in a god. You have yet to
comment….only complain.

If you want to discuss atheism I did.

Please discuss and let’s not go off on a tangent like abortion which has nothing to
do with this web site…except to incite..since anti abortionists are primarily out of
the most conservative of religions..which you have stated we discuss too much.

Get with the program and stop whining out of both sides of your mouth…Frank.

TWIMC…..

Like Frank…you have added nothing to discuss…and a need to deal with truth and
to be self congratulatory. Frank went away….(very very unlike him) and oddly
enough you show up…(very very unlikely)...wanting to discuss with
Frank…(incredibly unlikely!!!!)..My god man Halloween isn’t for weeks.

Archeon…enjoyed your last post. If there’s a god who has a hell I’d spit in it’s face
first and tell it to send me there.(Don’t ask me where I’d get the spit
from…haven’t figured that one out yet)

It just amazes me that people don’t understand this simple TRUTH:

The statement: “I don’t believe in god.”

Is not: “I believe god does not exist.”

this is not a simple trick of language…it goes to the very heart of what atheism is.  Firstly it is truely individual.  ie. it is for each person to define.  Mine is founded on “I don’t believe in god.”.  Where or not “god” exists is not relevant. I am sure like me no-one else really understands what the general term “god” actually means, or how to define it.  From what I see “god” as a term is place holder for an indefinable concept for which no proof or evidence exists in the world of real objects.

However.  Most of what people understand about “god”, faith, religion is mediated by texts written down 1000’s of years ago, and is further mediated by a priestly class whose existence, authority, and leisure are founded on the texts being true.  Furthermore, the only “proof” and “evidence” of the truth of the texts is to be found in the texts.

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are founded on the same idea, whoreship the same god, and refer to the same original source for authority and veracity.  The majority of people clearly understand these to be “religions”.

Budhism, is depending on localion, and local cultur may be religion or phylosophy….I generally would call it religion.

Commmunism is also a religion.

What I do state catagorically is this: the god of abraham, as described in the texts of the bible the torah and the koran, does not exist.  This god is a fiction like Zeus, Odin, and Manitou….he(for he is a male) was created by men.  the texts are contradictory, full of holes, fail to explain simple natural phenomena (ie> the role of semen, the role of blood, electricity, gravity, combustion, oxygen, how many “elements” there really are, atoms, molecules, cells, volcanoes, earthquakes, rain, clouds, etc etc etc etc…..).  The god of the texts condones rape, murder, theft, genocide, war, torture, slavery, pedophilia, adultery, etc etc etc.

Clearly when the majority are speaking of “god” they are talking about this fairy tale god - the one that does not exist.  Once that dragon has been slain, then perhaps we can start talking about whether a god or gods exist.

I however do not see any evidence of god/s and can happly accept the senario that there is/are none.  IE - I don’t need god/s to make my life here happy, complete, and worth the while.

TWIMC….

Since you won’t answers questions, I invite you to comment on the content of my
post which enumerated my own beliefs. I also invite you to clearly define your
own beliefs.

Thanks

Annie—- there’s no question that Frank is creating his own fan base, consisting
of himself.(TWIMC) I hesitated to answer his last statement….but since it was
flagrantly wrong (again) I decided to.

When Frank Comes back as “Frank Goodman, Sr.” then I’ll believe he wasn’t
thrown off.

“Atheism, however, is never explained beyond
a negative sense of being against religion”

That’s sheer BS.  I for one don’t say that God doesn’t exist. I just see no
evidence for god. Therefore I don’t believe in god. Is that a comment about
someone else’s religion. I don’t think so. I also believe that time doesn’t
exist..and that gives me reason to believe in a universe that has no beginning
and no end and therefore no god (started it all)  father figurer. Nor can I
fathom a creature or spirit coming into being with all knowledge of all
things….including (and I find this an interesting point) language. For without
another being with whom to communicate there is no need for language. Is
this a comment about another person’s religion? Of course not.

Newsweek reports that more people believe in angels than they do in
evolution…which is a reflection of a dumbed down society and very ignorant
people. Ignorance is a measurement of knowledge…and religions, for the most
part thrive on ignorance.

But don’t think for a moment that we don’t think on our own. Does this make
you happy?

“Atheism, however, is never explained beyond
a negative sense of being against religion”

That’s sheer BS.  I for one don’t say that God doesn’t exist. I just see no
evidence for god. Therefore I don’t believe in god. Is that a comment about
someone else’s religion. I don’t think so. I also believe that time doesn’t
exist..and that gives me reason to believe in a universe that has no beginning
and no end and therefore no god (started it all)  father figurer. Nor can I
fathom a creature or spiriti coming into being with all knowledge of all
things….including (and I find this an interesting point) language. For without
another being with whom to communicate there is no need for language. Is
this a comment about another person’s religion? Of course not.

Newsweek reports that more people believe in angels than they do in
evolution…which is a reflection of a dumbed down society and very ignorant
people. Ignorance is a measurement of knowledge…and religions, for the most
part thrive on ignorance. But don’t think for a moment that we don’t think on
our own. Does this make you happy?

hello everyone, I don’t know if you heard but in
Canada a Roman Catholic bishop was just arrested for
having a laptop full of child porn….HA HA!

I love hearing these kind of stories…faith is
apparently strong enough to cause people to hallucinate and believe in imaginary sky beings and
unseen spirits…but not strong enough to keep old
men from masturbating to pictures of little girls and
boys….Which makes me ask: What fucking good is
faith doing?  It obviously isn’t stopping people from
doing bad things.

Christianity and Islam are obsessed with sex, and in
particular: who gets to put what where in whom. 
Christianity and Islam are religions run by men, and
thus they are misogynistic belief systems where the
male believers are raised to fear the power of female
sexuality.

Of course they also fear: truth, justice, liberty,
equality, equity, honesty, love, forgiveness, and
compassion.

God is NOT great!

FYI All….

The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (whose life is probably THE life that was the
model for Christ’s written story is now available on-line free in Google Books.

The difference between Christ and Apollonius is that Apollonius, (as of my
knowledge today) was well know in Roman times as statues and busts of him
were found throughout Rome. He died in A.D. 96-98.

It’s my contention that when Paul tried to convert the pagan Romans that just
as the South American Indians mix their religion with Catholicism, that the
Romans mixed Paul’s message with their knowledge of Apollonius…and when
in 300 A.D.  Constantine demanded that the churches get their messages
straight…that Jesus ands Apolonius were permanently wed into one story…that
made the masses and Constantine very happy. ©

Mankers this forum is about atheism, and indirectly
about how irrational and illogical faith, religion,
and a belief in god is…....

Does this interest you?  Perhaps you have some ideas
regarding atheism, religion, and faith…please share
them.  But please read through some of the posts and
perhaps some of the questions you have may already
have been dealt with.  As you are new here, it would
be appropriate to ask any question or make any
comment.  Feel free to comment on the Sam Harris
article too.

Just in case anyone missed it:

Atheism is not a religion!

Mankers

Frank appears in many of the 77 pages listed below…in long interminable
posts.
For anyone here to try to explain Frank is simply inviting Frank back here to
defend what we don’t get exactly right, which means your question could easily
be from Frank. The one thing I can say is that we don’t agree with his theories
at all.

Glenno was/is Christian who presented usual Christian thinking but changed
the subject, asked foolish questions an didn’t answer the tough questions lied
came back under other names and eventually left.

This site is about atheism…not about Frank or Glenno. Do some homework..it’s
all here on the links about the comment window

Atheism is not taught or even talked about in
positive terms is because the crypto-fascist religio-
tyrants fear it.

Seriously, if atheism were presented as a viable
option far too many youngsters would cast aside
religion and be free.

When a child of methodist parents, converts and
becomes a muslim..he or she is not questioning faith,
god, or religion at all.  They are still blind.

Atheists, don’t have anything too prove, nor do they
have to prove anything.  The religious are even
afraid of the question: “why do you believe?”. 
Because in their world the need to believe is
assumed, and wondering why one would believe is not a
question they understand.  Those who claim there is a
god or gods, they have the onus to prove - they are
making the extraordinary claim….

Science is Atheistic is it not?

Hi - I’m new to the board. Would someone please give me the ‘quick skinny’ on Frank Goodman, and TWIMC? Who is this Glenno fellow that everybody keeps referring to? Many thanks. I want to contribute to the conversation.

On ID..I’m in agreement with Annie.

I have no problem with ID being taught in a religion class, or any other class that
deals with religion. After all it’s a concept. The reason atheism and religion are not
taught in science classes is simple. Can’t be proven. Can’t be disproved.
Really end of discussion.

Also anyone who comes here and refuses to answer questions…as Frank did with
Simpleman…..is Frankly refusing to be ridiculed for his answers,

Hence…why deal with Frank or the Non Frank.?

Hey, gang!

Let’s cut the newbie some slack.  He brought up ID; let’s discuss it with him.  It’s certainly on topic.  Surely we can open the discussion without asking questions at first.  He can present his point of view and we can respond with ours.  Eventually this will take us back to basic beliefs and disbeliefs. 
If he wishes to expose Frankonian phallusies, let’s see what he has to say.

TWIMC how are you religious?

I am truly interested in understanding your religion
and cosmology and theology.

If you are unwilling to explain you beliefs, then let
me suggest that participation in forums such as this
is inappropriate.  As we explain our beliefs, and
also defend them, if you are not willing to put yours
to the test, then commenting on ours or mine is not
relevant.  Unless you are willing to expose your
beliefs you have no right to comment on the beliefs
of lack of belief of others.

IF you want to defend religion then do so.
If you want to comment on atheism then do so.
If we ask what you believe then answer.

I don’t accept that some words are vulgar.

I ask you again: What are your religious beliefs?

I don’t have any religious beliefs. I am an atheist,
and antheist and an anti-theist.  I don’t accept that
there is a supernatural world.  I don’t accept the
bible the torah or the koran to be holy books (they
are perhaps mythology).  I don’t believe in god. I
know the god of abraham is a fiction.

I am a Pastafarian, and worship the great Noodley One
of the thousand apendages.
I pray to the great cosmic Teapot so that my cup
runneth over with Earl Grey.

So WIMC are you staying or are you going?

All of TWIMC’s (Franks) new posts are filled with the same Frank Goodman
arrogance as Glenno’s were filled with stupid and or off center comments.

To respond to this coward AH is to invite more of the same that’s been going
on seemingly forever.
It is fortunate that these people are so transparent.

He believes but not like most =Frank
He doesn’t use 4 letter words=Frank
He is looking for the old thinkers= put down arrogance= Frank
He is looking for Frank= Frank
He is known to lie= Frank
He is educated= Frank
Well read= Frank = Crank

I could go on and on. Please don’t waste you time with the coward. Glenno at
least left Frank can’t = Frank

“rules to keep dissent in check” = tyranny

Dissent is a vital part of a free and democratic
society.

Dissent is vital to social evolution.

Dissent is vital to the avoidance of corruption in
government.

Dissent checked, is dissent denied.

Sorry my posts are getting tooooo long.  But they are
on topic….

Me thinks TWIMC is either Glenno or Frank.

I don’t want you to live by my rules at all.  Indeed
I think you should live how you wish.  But I do draw
the line at tormenting little children to adopt
religion without giving them a free and fair chance
to accept atheism.  An this is EXACTLY what the
churches, mosques, and temples do.  In my experience,
if a child from a religious family trys to step
“outside” the faith, he will be threatened with all
sorts of punishments.  This is wrong.

You may practice your faith, in your church, at home,
where ever.  But you may NOT put your faith values
into law, into regulation, into school, ie into any
of the “common” areas of society.  IE- school prayer,
faith based gov. supported charity, laws regarding
adoption/marriage/inheritace/sex/abortion/pornography
/drugs.

“government of the people, by the people, and for the
people” is a phrase found in the founding documents
of the USA (where I presume you live TWIMC).  It is a
statement used to indicate the gov. will be different
than a tyranny or monarchy which is: governement of
the people, by the divine right of kings, for the
crown.  Where one dictates to the many.

People should be able to live as they wish, as long
as they do not harm others.  I don’t give a rats ass
if they harm themselves.

I suggest Atheists have learned the lessons of
history:
Religion is a destructive force that is used by tyrants, despots, and power hungry self aggrandizers
to bend people to their will for luxuries, easy
access to sex, lives of ease, and shear power. (I
present the catholic church…and televangelists…)

We are trying to prevent our friends our nations our
world form continuing on this path of stupitiy and
destruction.

I am sorry my dear TWIMC if your eyes are so offended
by a few so called “profanities”.  Like I explained
before these words are part of MY culture, MY
experience, and are as natural to my speech and writing as euphemistic circumlocution is to you.  I
will not accept a censoring of my language..deal with
the issues and don’t as many other have tried to side
track the debate.  If you don’t want to use profane
language then don’t, but do not attempt to control
the way I use language, because that will really
fucking piss me off.

So I ask again: WTF do you want if you don’t want to
answer questions?

TWIMC, what the fuck?
what do you mean you don’t answer questions?
Why are you here?
What do you want?

So the catholic church is not “organized”?
So the individual churches, mosques, and temples are not “organized”?

I ask you again: in which relgious tradition would you place your faith?

What does TWIMC stand for? “to whom it may concern”? I am becoming less interested in you, your posts are becoming drivel.

Religion is forced onto children by adults, they do not create it themselves, nore do they recieve it from the ether.  Adults who claim to be loving and careing force religion and it’s hate forming, guilt causeing, neurosis generating, fear instilling dogmatic theological cosmology on innocent babes.

Religion is and was created to control men, to force them to live by rules dictated by other men - before rational humans came up with the idea of rules created by the people, for the people, and of the people.  Religion is never and will never be about liberty, justice, freedom, and peace.

Religion of all types is about setting up non-believers as an “other”, and as less human, or less blessed by the grace of what ever divine fantasy they have manufactured.

To the regulars;

As you recall Glenno tried the tactic of leaving and coming back under another
name whose writings read like Glenno.

TWIMC smells like Frank….

“Don’t ask me questions”.....b.s.

“I’ll show Frank his fallacies.” We’ve done that in spades and don’t need your
help or invitation to yourself to bring yourself back.

The whole post has Frank written all over it. It sounded like Frank the day “it”
arrived here.

I for one will not deal with this new arrival (during Frank’s odd absence)
Perhaps the administrators finally caught on finally tossed Frank out.

Hi Simpleman….your comment on ID almost made me
piss my pants I was laughing so hard: “bumbling
idiot” almost made me fall out of my chair.

I for one think any religion is dogmatic..whether it
is traditional or not…..there is no religion
without dogma.

TWIMC, just out of curiosity, to which religious
tradition would you say you belong? Christian?
Jewish? Muslim? Rasta? Hindu? Native American?
Australian Aboriginal? Tibetan Animism? Shinto?
Confusionism? Budhism? Later Day Sainthood?
Communism? Taoism?

Besides being an Atheist, I am a Pastafarian (see:
http://www.venganza.org/), and a believer in the
great Celestial Teapot as revealed by the great
prophet Bertand Russel.

I pray every night to one with the noodely apendages
hope he will bring me meat balls and sauce.

I worship the Great Celestial Teapot in the hope of receiving an eternal supply of Earl Grey.

Christ was an idiot.
God is an asshole.
Mohamed was a child molester.

Hooray!! My favorite triple A team ia back together again!!
That’s Annie, Archeon and Akira.

OK one more time:

saying:
I don’t believe in god.

is not the same as saying:
I believe there is no god.
or
I believe god does not exist.

For most atheists the former rather than the later is
true. I don’t believe in god.  In particular I don’t
believe in the god of the abrahamic texts…in that
cast I would go so far to say that: that god does not
exist.  There are thousands of religions, with
thousands of gods…which one if a god exists is the
right one?

The texts of the bible, the torah, and koran are
loaded with out right false hoods, they are riddled
with a misunderstanding of the physical world.  We
are asked to over look these so called “minor” errors
and accept that the text reflect the world in which
they were written, and as such would not contain
mention of things we might find in the world today. 
The writers of the texts didn’t even know what
electricity was, or that semen fertilized an egg and
was implanted in the womb (they believed the semen
was the “seed”, and the uterus was merely a plowed
field in which the seed was planted), they did not
understand about bacteria or viruses (they believed
disease was caused by demons or a disfavouing by
god).  Se we are to accept some parts of the texts a
the imutable truth, while acknowledging that some
parts are not (true).  To which I ask: exactly which
parts are true and which are not?  how am I to know
where the truth/falshood lined lies?

I merely ask the believers to provide evidence of
god.  I make no claims, beyond the statement that: I
do not believe in god.  But then again, I don’t
believe in Santa, the easter bunny, ghosts, past
lives, prophecy, psychic ability, or telekinesis.

If we get into the moral guide the texts provide,
then there is even more to talk about - the god/s of
the text/s condone: rape, incest, murder, theft,
genocide, ethnocide, slavery, infantacide, regicide,
lying, cheating, beating of wives and children, etc
etc etc etc this is a very long list.

To top it off the final prophet of god according to
Islam was a pedophile sexual predator rapist
murderer.

My personal problem with the idea of an intelligent design is that it seems to imply a design with a purpose and if intelligently executed, would produce a completed product which accomplishes that purpose.  Evolution, on the other hand, implies an ongoing process that is ever changing.  If you look around you, I think that you will agree that evolution fits our observations much better than an intelligent design.  Saying that the design must be intelligent because it works so well, begs the question of whether or not the design could be better.  Take the five senses for instance; why only five?  One of the major influences in our lives is electrical/magnetic phenomona.  Why don’t we have a sense to detect that?  One of our five senses is sight.  Why can’t we see what is creeping up behind us?  Why can’t we see as well as an eagle?  If we compare each of our senses to those of other animals, we find ourselves lacking.  Do you really think this is intelligent design?  If so, does that really imply that we stand in the highest status among the rest of the creatures of the world?  What, indeed is the purpose of the design, if any.?

TW: I may not have a traditional dogmatic religion, but I
do believe that what we have and notice is an
“...intelligent design.” It certainly works as though
it were created by an intelligent being. Whether it
was deliberately designed by a super God or a
bumbling idiot by trial and error, it came out pretty
good.

S: If one looks at the “design” and/or the “design process”, one cannot conclude that a super god did it, but it rather implicates a bumbling idiot using trial and error.  Many, many, many mutations have occurred which were unsuccessful.  Although man has used genetic processes to introduce genetic mutations, these experiments, successful or unsucessful, pale in the extreme to the number of naturally occurring mutations.  Natural selection mechanisms are much more likely to have produced the world as it existed in the past and as it exists today.  This does not imply some sort of independent designer with a purpose.

Welcome, TWIMC.
I came here much as you claim to do.  I had vague, but strong ideas about the validity of religions.  I did not fault xians for their beliefs, but only for some of their actions.  When I read the manifesto introducing this site, it opened my eyes to a great degree, but I needed to learn more.  Now, I mostly agree with Sam Harris that moderate religion practices are not really benign, but highly cancerous.  I have learned a great deal here from Sam Harriss’s proponents, but also from examining the arguments put forth by his opponents.  In that spirit, I am happy to see any and all newcomers. 

I am probably one of those in which you have seen a good bit of anger towards Frank, the bonehead, Goodman.  As you may have already discovered, Frank appeared on this site proclaiming that God is Truth and Truth is God and nobody on other sites have been able to show him to be in error thus far.  There was some very good dialogue on the philosophy of truth and the concept of “god”.  Near the end of this dialogue, Frank conceded that there is no God and therefore the idea of Truth being God was false.  He disappeared from the site after that for several months.  Then he came back, apparently with amnesia, and started proclaiming again that Truth is God and God is Truth.  This time, he absolutely refuses to engage in dialogue about what he conceives to be “god”.  We get a lot of sermons about Truth, but that is not the subject of this forum.  It appears that all this lonely old man wants is attention.  That is not what this forum is for either.  I am angry that he refuses to participate in the spirit of this forum and refuses to go away so that others such as yourself can come in and get back on the subject.  It seems as though Frank thinks this is an endurance contest and the last one posting is the “winner”.  This is not a contest and there are no “winners” except in the gain of knowledge to be found here.  I seek knowledge and understanding, and Frank no longer contributes to that.  I may appear to be angry with him, but the fact is that I am truly frustrated with him.  Please, excuse what appears to be anger and become an active participant.  We hunger for new ideas or even new slants on old ideas.

Stephen Hawkings does not believe in god.

I have seen no evidence for one.

There has been plenty of discussion on how foolish some of natures creatures are
designed, including our own. (bad mechanics etc)

ID is a cute concept, but so is the concept of a god who comes into being with all
knowledge. And to teach ID in a science class is sinful.

Akira…welcome back….to what we’re not sure.

Agree with the commune thing… as it is essentially a tribe…and tribes have
survived much longer than governments.  A “gated community” is just the start.
But they are not self sufficient.  Tribes are. Communes are. One big problem is
where. Where to set it up. My guess….in a country like Mexico where the people
are poor to begin with and know how live on less etc. Jim Jones had the right
idea…but he made a lousy chief. Imagine 8 million people in NYC in trouble for
whatever reason. Very messy.

Here the rich will buy weapons and protection….middle ages stuff. Tell us more.

Hm…the comments seem vaguely Facebookian.

That being said, I figured I would pop in for a while, as I put my writing on hiatus due to a combination of college intensity and global catastrophe. If there was ever a time to believe less in God, I do think now is that time.

I also find myself increasingly interested in creating a commune, to escape from the astounding failures of all governments. Hunting down knowledge only brings more horror to the eye, and I have done a fair share of knowledge hunting. Most notably, peak oil, climate crises, and religious zealots. Peak oil’s already hit, or will hit by next year. Climate’s already naturally heading toward an ice age, and when the oil is gone it’ll hit harder. Religious zealots are surrounding and demanding more power, and the corrupt governments are all to eager to surrender it.

Corporations are tearing out large chunks of money to keep for themselves, breaking the common man so they can continue to sell us crap. Arguably, the RIAA’s 2.6 mil victory over a woman who may have possibly shared roughly the equivalent of a mix tape online should be the poster child for an era of everything going wrong.

And on that cheery note: how are all of you?

TWIMC…

welcome….no need to fear us. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses
and there’s only one Annie here.

As for Frank he hogs the place with his theories that not one of us believe and
or understand..and he’s afraid to leave because he likes to be rejected. This is
round 3 for Frank..meaning he takes up 90% of the space. The rests and comes
back to repeat himself. (and just so you know, for all we know you might be
Frank…crap like that happens)

RE Sam Harris….I think we passed commenting on him years ago…but no
reason to not revisit if you disagree with him or us. Frank brings him up now
and then to sound legitimate.

Oh…and if you start to sound like Frank….well….we’ll know.

TWIMC

The other day, as I do sometimes, I watched a mega church leader talk for 15-
20 minutes, this time on the anti Christs. (plural) Anyone who does not believe
in Jesus is an anti christ….and by inference is up to no good..or is no good…
and represents the devil. It’s all fear and hate…directed at non believers. And
it’s so simplistic. John said it therefore it’s true. Remarkable.

If you stay here for a while…you will find that most of us know more about the
bible than you do. You might, and I doubt it, but you might be able to quote
more than we do (do tesrt Annie) But we also know far more about the history
of the bible than you do because preachers are not paid to tell you the
negative stuff about the NT on a Sunday.

Faith requires a great belief in magic starting with a belief that we have a
soul….which is an invention of someone maybe 10,000 years ago.Then there’s
the belief in resurrection of the soul..which the Egyptians believed in big time.
Uplifitng Magic. Then there’s the magic of virgin births, which appear in many
pre Christian mythologies (google it)..and the magic of prayer with a god who
micro manages as long as you ignore those billions of innocents who do suffer
after prayer. Hey that’s selective magic.

Then you have to believe in the Magic in a bunch of writers and even more so-
copyists who wrote or copied the books in the NY ... that they were ALL
inspired by god. No writers block is magic too. And aside from maybe some of
Pauls letters….there isn’t an original NT document left that’s younger than 300
years old.(give or take 100 years) Biblical scholars know there are more copyist
additions and mistakes than there are words in any one NT. But is a preacher
gonna talk about that Sunday morning? No way. So depending on his/her
education most of them lie…or have an enormous belief in magic. We don’t
believe in magic. We believe in history and science. Neither one of which are
great concerns among Christians. (Only in the past 10 years or so has
Christianity recognized that the planet needs help. That God ain’t gonna care
for it.
So stay hear and challenge us. That’s why we’re here. But get ready to open
some books..google some names…and if you have an ounce of skepticism you
might at least learn something that might make you more tolerant of those of
us who have spent a lifetime searching for any god…and not finding one or
any.

TWIMC, you are perfectly safe here.
We only hurl insults at those who try to hijack the discussion, or those that try to censor.

Basically there are those here who agree with Sam, and those who do not.

Those that agree are by and large Atheists, those that do not are believers and religious appologists and religious propagandists.

We also have a bunch that post under several different handles, probably to boost the numbers here on the “pro” religion side.  When found out, they are not handled kindly.

We also have Frank Goodman, who is as best as I can tell against judaism and christianity (and all the other religions, except…) yet on the other hand is an islamic “new age” old man propagandist and appologist.  Claiming islam is truth, and that god is truth, and that thus god is islam…etc etc…

We have had fundy christies and latter day mormons..but they left after failing in their attempts at conversions..I like to believe they left cause the debate here caused them to question their fairy tale mythology, and right now they are on journeys of relgious liberation - ie giving up faith for reason.

Atheists are “mad” because we are told day in and day out the we are: evil, wrong, doomed to hell, dangerous, and the eventually we will see the “light” and come over to god’s side. As if this rational and reasoned view of the world we have is a phase we will grow out of.  Most of us grew up, and cast aside the childish simple faith based view religion offers - and we see the faith and texts filled with the contradictions and lies written by men to subdue and enslave other men.

For most atheists, science and reason offer plenty of wonder and mystery, so much so that I at least don’t need fairy tales written by illerate goat herders to keep me engaged here on earth.

I for one see no evidence of god, the supernatural, the occult, the spiritual here in this world and universe that makes up reality.  I see religion as a way people tryed to explain what they could not understand using their limited knowledge of the world and the physics that govern it.  The religious texts of the world are basically devoid of science.  They fail to explain: weather, climate, seasons, gravity, electricity, reproduction (ie: the role of semen, the uterus, the ovaries, etc), night and day, the function of blood and the circulatory system, etc.  Basically they explaing nothing.

PS Blasphemy contest at secularhumanism.org. (20 words or less)

Speaking of sex….

The least violent monkeys are the the Bonobos. The least violent humans are
in primitive societies.

Oddly enough they all practice some form of free sex.

The folks at the Onedia community did the same.

One of the benefits….kids are raised by everyone, so none are screwed up by
one set of parents. 

Why religions spend so much time on private parts and practices is beyond me,
but then their only role is to control the masses.

Imagine killing your own daughter because she has been raped? Having a
Catholic church being run by gays yet being anti gay. It doesn’t get any
funnier..or any more pathetic.

What the hell is wrong with sex?  Why do the major
religions have such a problem with it?

yes Annieup09, a degree of responcibility does and must
go along with it.  Yes also both (assuming it is only
two people) parties must also be doing it for the same
reason.  It should always be “fun”.

Get laid often, have fun, be safe, respect the other
participants.

Islamabad boy…LOL

Frankiebaby:

Words are weapons.

Thus the more you protest my so called vulgarity, the
more I will use it - I am in control, and you are too
simple to know that.

Simple trite politeness is hollow and facile. 
Politeness for the sake of politeness is impotence at
it’s zenith.

So Frank explain to me again (pref. in words I can
understand, and that don’t put me to sleep….):

1 - what is god
2 - who is god
3 - does god hear our prayers
4 - which god is it that is god
5 - how do I/we know what is god’s will

I am sorry you spent your youth sexually frustrated
and that you were denied access to something that is
perfectly natural, perfectly desirable, and perfectly
enjoyable.  Religion, and esp. the judeo-christian-
islamic kind, has tryed to make us all feel soiled by
the act of sex.  Abraham and his god has made us feel
ashamed of our sex organs, our sexual drives, and yes
even asked us to fear the sexual power of women.

As for the cows…..
cows in heat are mounted by other cows because this
serves a a visual cue to the bull that a cow is in
heat.  the act of mounting also helps bring the cow
who is mounting into heat.  it all has to do with
hormones, pheromones, and visual cues that affect the
brain.  this possibly also explains porn, erotica,
etc in the human world.
In short: it has little or nothing to do with
lesbianism or homosexuality.

As for the ape fucking the football…you have heard
of masturbation haven’t you Frank?  many animals
(humans being one of the species) masturbate…it is
not ABNORMAL, but rather mundane and normal.  Infact
it seems only the relgious seem to have a problem
with it.

Yes the religious say: don’t get laid, but don’t beat
off either.  Come to think of it, far too much about
religion is about controlling who has sex with whom
and when they have sex and how they have sex and what
they get for having sex.

Prostitution is evil and sinful, but getting married
and keeping a home letting your husband work and
bring home the bacon so to speak and fucking him in
return for feeding, clothing, and sheltering you is
not.  The hypocrisy is almost too much to bear.

Religions are run by senile impotent old men who fear
the sexual power of women, and younger men.

What is wrong with sex on the first date?
I say skip the date, and go straight to the sex.

I am all for get laid and get laid often…..

And yes the control over sex that the abrahamic religions try to have is one thing that really annoys
me.

Hi Annie!

Frank is, in truth, an idiot.  In spite of all his self agrandizement, and ramblings, he is still an army of 1!!  Does he ever look around and look for the real truth?  Does he really think that he is the only one not out of step?  Doesn’t he understand that truth=truth is all there is?  God is nothing; such a thing does not exist.  Therefore by substitution, if truth=god, then truth=nothing or, if god=truth, then nothing=truth.  Obviously, this is a false identity.

AoT,

Again you missed the entire point and significance.

Yes I thought that we had agreed that censorship is
bad, and that everyone should be allowed to say what
they want in a way they want.

My cultural background is such that words like fuck,
asshole, shithead, moron, fuctard, prick, etc are
part of my natural language, and to make me not use
them or make me use other words is an act of cultural suppression and repression.  Let everyone speak and
express themselves as they see fit.  It is not my or
your place to control the words people use.

As for personal attacks, well when you come to a
public forum and express views that are stupid,
irrelevant to the debate, and obtuse: expect to be
told so.

I for one, don’t want the moderators to remove the
profanities, or the personal attacks…I can handle
both.

Frank I did get past the link, and I did read some of
the stuff….you seem far to sensitive and insecure.

I tuned out after a few pages because it all seemed
like irrelevant mental masturbation.  Yes it is
interesting, and yes it may have validity in the
greater context of truth, fact, and progress. 
However in the debate here which should be focused on
the relevance and validity of religion, and esp.
those abrahamic ones it is not relevant.

The probability of validity vis-a-vis the bible, the
torah, and the koran is low simply based on the
internal contradictions of the texts, and thus it is
very unlikely that the associated religions are
relevant or valid.  The “big three” all claim to be
the ultimate truth because they were reveal to
earthly prophets who brought this “truth” to the
common sinful and earthly “man”.

The truth they claim is in many ways unrelated to the
“truth” of which you speak.  The truth of which they
speak is contained in the bubble of self created
reality of those religions, and thus has little
bearing on the lives of people who do not believe or
who do not have faith.

Even if in the esoteric theological ramblings of
ivory tower religious thinkers the “truth” of the
faith is discussed along the same lines as the
phylosophical “truth” of which you speak, this has NO
bearing on the theology of the masses, and the
theology of the pulpit.  In particular the “truth” of
fundamentalist and extremist sects is even further
removed from ultimate “truth”.

Fundamentalist christianity has it’s own idea of what
is true and truth, what is possible, and what is,
these are in direct conflict with the observed, the
tested, and the known.  Faith requires that the
believer put aside “truth” and simply accept “facts”
as given by those who have access to the “truth” - ie
prophets.  I suspect that other extremists of other
religions a similarly deluded.

We can debate and talk about your truth, but I don’t
think that is what this forum is for.  But I suspect
that you don’t really want to talk about truth but
rather are trying to connect god with truth, when
clearly there is no god, and yet still there is
truth.  I don’t understand why god = truth, when it
is sufficient that truth = truth.

You did not get past the URL link. You jumped to the
conclusion that it had anything to do with Plato, the
Greek philosopher. Note that plato is the home site
of the Stanford reference service. I suggest that for
your own benefit you keep an open mind and go where
it reasonably leads you. Backtrack when you make
false turns, but don’t confuse one for another. The
links were to allow the readers of this to review
what others had to say. You and I should know more
facts and have access to more ideas and analysis than
Plato, Aristotle, or Socrates. Yet those ancient
minds were far ahead of what passes for Ph.D. now.
The links put the theories of truth over vast time
into the space of a website by Stanford University
professors.

You gain no credibility by calling Plato and me
stupid. It does not elevate your sagacity. Keep it
clean. Earn your right to respect by being respectful
with the reservation that any of us could be wrong.
Progress toward truth could have many wrong turns and
still arrive at truth. One uncorrected error could
block the goal forever.

seriously? : “Frank Goodman, Sr., September 4 at 4:38
pm #
Question: Why do people kill in the name of a religion?

Beats me!”

Come on you can’t understand why people kill for
religion?  You really are stupid then.

Is it just me, or do the phylosophical arguments and
theses about truth seem in the end as circular as the
religious arguments and theses about truth?

Frank: there you go again…...btw…everything Plato
had to say is in my mind tainted by the fact he
believed in the lost continent of Atlantis.

The fact that he believed a fiction to be true makes me
question his sanity…..

Is it just me, or do the phylosophical arguments and
theses about truth seem in the end as circular as the religious arguments and theses about truth?

Frank: there you go again…...btw…everything Plato
had to say is in my mind tainted by the fact he
believed in the lost continent of Atlantis.

The fact that he believed a fiction to be true makes me
question his sanity…..

That truth includes truth of the non-true, is
essential to the identity theory of truth. For those
who cannot get the mind around this, consider why
negative plus negative is still negative, but negative
times negative is positive. A reversal of a negative
trend is positive while reversal of a positive trend
is negative. In linguistics a double negative is
syntactically a positive. Thus is it true that
anything not true is not true. Thus truth is two ways
on the line, cuts both ways on the plane, and both
expands and contracts the sphere. Physically,
everything neither comes from nothing nor contracts to
nothing. Note the string of negatives in the last
sentence. The universe neither originated from a glob
of nothing, nor ends in a poof of nothing.

Before we go any further with this, I suggest that
everyone, with any interest beyond the expletives and
vulgar epithets expressed by some, go to these links
and review the subject of truth and the identity
theory of truth.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-identity/

It may be advised to link to the identity theory
first, then go to the link to truth for a background
more general. I might say that my theory goes beyond
the identity theory of truth to ultimate truth.

Science does not allow exclusion of any fact, but
does endure the loss of some facts in the process and
moderation of others to accommodate knowledge newly
obtained. An hypotheses is a fact only if true.
Support for facts is research and experiment. When an
hypothesis is rejected, it is as valuable to science
as when an hypothesis is supported. Hypotheses are
never proven, but probability is increased to a point
of practical belief. Yet practical belief is not
truth, even when a practical belief is true. But a
practical belief that is true requires truth as much
as a practical belief that is not true requires
truth. For it is true that it is not true that the
earth is flat. ‘The earth is flat’ is not a fact but
a belief only. Modification of the belief produces
‘The earth is an imperfect ball that orbits the sun
and revolves on its own axis.’

Modification of ancient religion that saw the sun as
God has been modified to a belief in a mythical being
not detected by senses of sight and sound, but by
operation of human thought and reason. Taken to the
ultimate, either there is no God, or God is a natural
assumption of comprehensive capacity and verity. Thus
the lower criticism involved such questions as ‘How
many angels can dance on the head of a pin.’ The
higher criticism stops when truth is revealed to all. 
Know truth and truth shall set you free. Enough facts
to produce a computer or put a man on the moon are
not enough. It is enough that truth can be known even
when all facts are not known. Human beings are facts,
but God is Truth.

I take it that when parentheses are used to encase
the word facts, it is done to distinguish between
facts that are always true and “facts” (that is
beliefs) that are not all true. Beliefs that are true
are facts, but beliefs that are not true are not
facts. Facts are not truth, but truth is required for
a fact to be true. Common usage is not accurate to
convey this, but our presentation carried enough to
get the message across.

My entire effort has been to distinguish belief from
truth. Then my more limited excursions were to pay
homage to those brave thinkers who dare to venture
out of the box. Though I do not get outside the box,
I am able to see through the cracks in reason that
give rise to assumptions of atheism. There is no
justification for dogma except for practical value
before advanced reason could evolve. Our ancestors
did well to lay the foundations of reason in order to
build the structures of science and technology. But,
they did it against the dogmatic forces of tradition,
religion, and superstition. Even religion has
undergone evolution, but has not been willing to tear
down the walls of faith to sustain reason.

Faith is useful to science, but faith in a
supernatural is not. Faith in truth and the capacity
to approach scientific accuracy with the knowledge of
their own limitations in matters of fact and truth,
is the driving force of science and advanced
engineering. When I say that truth is God, I do so
with the intent to bring together the ecumenical
drive toward ultimate truth with the scientific
method. Philosophy is useful, not as a science, but
to form the visions necessary to launch scientific
projects that improve our minds and bodies. The
Doctor of Philosophy is not a philosopher, but a
physician of reason. His is to diagnose the maladies
of the mind and to prescribe remedies to improve the
function of thinking.

I am sorry that I got down into the gutter of vulgar
expression to display my own embarrassment and dismay
from accusations of liars. Now that we are back down
from the acme of fatuity, we can proceed with a more
civil exchange.

Well Frank…..

In this last post you do finally say something that
does make sense.

Scientific verification is not proof is true, yet it
is a dam sight better than mere “faith”. 
Furthermore, science does in the wider scope allow
for alteration of “facts”, the inclusion of new
“facts”, and the removal of old “facts.  Religion
unfortunately is not flexible in the handling of new
information, indeed it often and usually refuses to
even “see” the new “facts”, never mind understand
them.

I agree that science and philosophy work together to
advance human life - social, political,
technological, etc…..however I do not see any role
for religion and it’s associated dogmas, cosmologies,
and theologies (other than as cultural curiosities,
and warnings about the type of mindsets we need to
guard against).

Religions of all types usually assert that they have
access to a immutable truth that other ways of
thinking do not, and thus set themselves up as the
“correct” or “right” way.(and by implication assert
other ways of living/thinking/doing are wrong or even
evil) The abrahamic religions are particularly fond
of this.  In the history since their founding, they
have caused untold misery, death, and pain because of
this.

Thanks for that last post, thanks for finally writing
something that even a dunderhead like me can
understand.

Those whose minds are too dense to comprehend truth
without some fact hitting them in the head are beyond
the intend of this article. Sam Harris must have
known that some would not see his logic. So do I know
that some people are simply not up to the task. Truth
need not be proved. Facts are subject to verification
if needed. But scientific verification is not proof
as such. All science is probability beyond a
reasonable doubt, but not absolute certainty. Sorry
that the dunderheads cannot understand that. The
certainty of truth is that a fact is either true or
not true.

Dunderheads should know that there are facts that are
beyond any need or even possibility to know if true.
But even a dunderhead should trust truth itself, even
when he cannot know all of the facts that are true.

There are leading minds among humans who advance
knowledge and science to ever higher levels of
utility and invention. There are others who dwell in
the realm of absolute certainty with no need to prove
anything beyond the obvious to receptive minds. Most
do not come here to banter even mundane facts in the
gutter language of the bar on Saturday night.

I feel no need to persuade any of you who write here.
My comments are for consumption of the occasional
thinker who drops by for a look. Beyond that, it is
for Sam Harris if he should look in for a sample of
appreciation of his efforts. Any others who could
appreciate a level higher than the parking curbs of censorship by moderators of
discourse on a public concourse would find support
for their own ideas.

All advances are made uphill against gravity of heavy
dogmas and upstream against the flow of common errors
of the mind. Human progress is measured in
millenniums of effort to break the barriers against
access to useful inventions. Human thought goes
beyond invention and explores the outer realms of
reality and reason, just as human invention goes
beyond the realms of useful navigation and explores
the distant galaxies of our universe. Philosophy goes
hand in hand with science and religion to improve our
understanding of truth. It is a slow process, with
progress measured in eons of evolution of capacity to
reason.

We share the product of reason with those with capacity
to understand, but eventually even the dunderheads
benefit from the results. This will not be resolved in the space of a few comments on this site by me or by anyone else. After all it took millenniums to move from the bone littered caves of primitive man to the halls of Harvard. And it took longer to navigate the mental maze that produced the orbiting telescopes that explore our universe far beyond the flat earth views of our ancestors. Many philosophers and scientists were burned at the stake of religious dogma. It is the price we pay for going against the stream of common assumptions.

Congratulations to the common atheists who find themselves here, for they benefit from the political advances gained at great price by brave minds that dared to challenge the authority of priests and shamans.

Annie: My guess is that they don’t read anything and when Frank gets scared he
posts another lengthy diatribe that looks “official” However there’s one thing I
haven’t done that might work.

Frank,

Truth is not Allah.  You need to go to a Mosque.  Allah is believed to be a deity, a being with attributes such as merciful, vengeful, etc.  That gives Mohammed’s Al-Haq a much different spin than what you’re going on about. 

Islam rejects truth, and embraces myth and fantasy.  And it does so with a vengeance…the very spirit of Allah.

Xianity rejects truth, so it must be with some atheists.  People are people are people.  The point is, just because Gandhi said “truth is god” (and btw he meant that in the philosophical aspect), doesn’t mean that he was right or adding physical attributes to the perceptions of truth the way you are claiming Mohammed did.  I have been through and through the Qur’aan and it in no way represents truth nor Allah the way you do.  You’re full of shit.  You
absolutely are.  You are trying to simmer down Islam and make it look rosey everytime you come here to tout “truth” as a deific religious concept which is, once again, off topic.  Just throwing Sam Harris’ name in there doesn’t change that.

In Sanskrit, satya (truth)has many meanings, but
Ghandi used the essence of the philosophic meaning
when he said that “Truth is God.”

The philosophical meaning of the word ‘Satya’ is
“unchangeable”, “that which has no distortion”, “that
which is beyond distinctions of time, space, and
person”, “that which pervades the universe in all its
constancy”.

The truth is beyond invention and change. Truth does
not evolve, but makes evolution possible.

Though Sam Harris does not attack the Hindu religion
as such, he does reject all concepts of God as a
personal being. Satya is no person like Jesus or even
the Jewish people’s God. Though there are several
mythical characteristics of God found in Hindu
tradition, most presented as able to communicate with
characters in spiritual literature, God is accepted
by Hindus as monotheistic representation of all that
is true. Ghandi took it to Satya for God.

Likewise, Mohammad represented Allah as Al Haq at one
point in the Qu’ran. Al Haq is one of the 99 names
for God found in the Qu’ran.

Others in other religions represent God as The Truth. 
All speak of their religion as truth. And most
atheists I have known believe that it is true that
there is no God. What is usually meant is what Sam
Harris rejects as the God who causes miracles and
creates things by saying them. No serious atheist I
have met rejects truth itself. Truth as God presents
a challenge to the meanings of the word in English as
well as the meanings in Sanskrit. A correspondence
meaning would be that there is a concept of truth
that would correspond to a real being or entity. It
would be unique and specific. Ghandi struggled with
that but failed to resolve all issues.

I believe that more respect is owed to the word,
truth, in all languages. Certainly the word is not
God, and since truth has no physical or visual form,
no image of truth comes to mind. That is why Mohammad
advised against all imagery and idolatry to imagine
God as a form.

These are attempts to know God without seeing,
feeling, hearing, touching, or smelling. Mohammad
distinguished between knowing and any sensual
experience of Allah. Truth is Al Haq, thus Allah, and
all that is true are manifestations of Allah. Neither
Al Haq nor Allah can be represented as forms or
presentations.

This in no way excuses the excesses of various claims
of Muslims or non-Muslims.

Mea culpa! I am guilty of straying from the topic of
this editorial response page. I may have stirred up a
hornet’s nest by alerting the moderator of this site
on some of the nasty stuff being posted here.

May I again suggest that those who post here stick to
the subject in the spirit of editorial comment. Side
trips into the opposing views seem appropriate, but
not the vulgar epithets and expletives by some
writers. I will continue to hit the alert button any
time I see inappropriate remarks or comments by
anyone, especially those insulting to me and
objectionable to decent people everywhere.

We can be respectful in our disagreements, but should
not resort to personal insults and attacks upon any
person or institutional religion. As I admit, I have
posted some unsuitable references to Christianity and
Judaism. By extension, I have included a range of,
what I have called, foolish beliefs. After all, Sam
Harris was not exactly gentle in his attacks upon all
religions and especially, Islam and Christianity.

Very excellent!  I think the sadder thing is that there are still a lot of these people who will deny the obvious and refer to Shermer as the anti-christ and such.  I get on religious and atheist blogs all the time and it’s absolutely amazing what some people will say in the face of definitive evidence! 

Thanks..this is the one I saw the other day on someone’s blog.

Annie…sounds great. (here’ the link)

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strange_things.html

This is only slightly related….There’s a video I watched of a “moving” statue of
Mary in Ireland somewhere. It only moved at night when a spotlight was on it.
Crowds came to watch it every night..and to pray etc etc.

So some skeptic sets up a camera on a tripod and video tapes the event. No
movement.

Seems people just can’t stand perfectly still…and given the focus on a lighted
statue with a black background Mary just seemed to move all over the place.

Imagine how disillusioned (the perfect adjective) and stupid these people must
feel when they are shown the video. But odds are a bunch of people still show
up just for the want of some unexplained magic in their lives. Better to pay and
watch a real magician…but real magicians don’t promise a life hereafter.

Simpleman, you’re right.  I believe this is therapy for the delusional.  It’s a brilliant idea.  But something tells me that Frank is just a pervy wanker. haha

SNED, I think you’re right about the ignoring bit.  But I would like to curve the topic back to where it was BF (Before Frank) haha. 

I recently saw a video by Michael Shermer that was called “why people believe strange things” (or something like that).  Anyway, there was some brilliant stuff on there, and it was incredibly interesting the way the virgin Mary being seen here and there can be explained away all the while people are pulling up chairs, pulling out their rosaries ...all just to see a giant prism (for one example) of what appeared to be the Virgin Mary as she is seen in “pictures” (hahaha).  It turned out that the holy apparition looked as much like Marge Simpson.  haha I would like to see more of that stuff, and just ignore Frank as you suggested.  He has become a non-entity anyway.  And to be honest, I rarely read his posts unless they are short or directed at me. So, we may as well move on.  If I find that video again, I will post it.

A good friend alerted me to the probable reason for
the nasty remarks here by certain enemies of truth. I
never thought of it, but it does make sense. I have
certainly known people who try to drive off those
they do not like by the kind of diatribes seen here
by certain of those who believe that they own the
site. They even threaten as though they are on the
board of censors of TruthDig. One even seems to
believe that ‘it’ has the power to deny my posts. Of
course, that falls rather flat or ‘it’ would have
acted long ago to bar my comments.

So, if that is true, good luck to you. I win both
ways. If you succeed, I certainly would not wish to
write in a forum where my benign comments are
censored. On the other hand, if I am not banned, the
big heads would have a hard time scratching their
scalps because their arms would not be long enough. I
can see it now. They keep seeing my posts after the
atheist prayer to remove me. They try to scratch
their heads in disbelief. Can’t reach the itch. Huh!

My Aussie friend has just read about five pages of
comments on Atheist Manifesto. He had choice words in
‘Strine’ that cast a shadow from down under. My
youngest son, an avowed atheist, not the Pentecostal
preacher, is still doubled up laughing. It interferes
with his work, but the boss also laughs. My mother
rolled over in her grave when one wrote that she
committed suicide because of me. She died peacefully
in her sleep at over 102 years of age. Speaking of
liars. That one had a whole litany of lies. I did not
even lie that much when I was ten, when I could get
by with it. I have noticed that the real liars use a
lot of vulgarity in their lies. It also substitutes
for truth and consequences. When caught in a lie,
they have an expletive to break wind from the mouth.
My youngest daughter calls it “...farting from the
mouth.” Oh s—t! The suggestion of fecal odor is
appropriate.

I wonder where Atheism went in this thread? Atheism
has two slants, pro and con. Those who themselves
deny a god, and those who question atheism. Honesty
does play a part, as it should allow a degree of
decorum to accept the rights of those who disagree
with them as they disagree with everyone. I even note
that in the thread on atheism, some atheists cuss out
other atheists. Oh Hell! I don’t have a chance.

Anyway, the ones lying here are certainly
accomplished liars because they can tell the same lie
over and over. Most liars can’t remember each
version. These liars have practiced so long that they
could star in a sitcom. At least those with a script
can stick to it. Wonder who wrote their script? They
don’t need spell checkers because it would mask their
identities. I make errors not detected by my spell
checker, but some on this site don’t know how to use
a spell checker. But, they don’t need accuracy,
because the message is more clear with the errors
than without them.

Please! If there is any intelligent life on the site,
say something. Beam me up Scotty, only low life here.

Annie,

I have this weird vision in my mind of an assylum somewhere trying out a new therapy.  They give one of their delusional patients with megalomaniac tendancies a computer and encourage him to test his strange ideas on unsuspecting people on the internet.  These unhappy participants are expected to show this patient the error of his ways.  Since this patient is going to adopt a persona, he/she could be of any age, but would probably pick an elderly male persona to exert the maximum authoritarian influence.  When provided with valid arguments to his/her delusions, he/she would simply go into denial or respond with childish repartee such as “You too!”.  It is a fiendishly clever therapy which would free the time of the assylum and let the patient interact with anonymous others who have no stake in the patient’s welfare.  This patient’s postings would probably smell like a frankfarter.  Since this is part of his/her treatment, the patient cannot leave without finding another guilible site.  Think about it!!

“I just can’t have a man…a muslim man at that…taking over the Atheist
Manifesto thread.”

Frank is like a whining child…the more attention you pay to his whining the
more he whines. And that’s why he’s still here. Glenno had the guts to leave.

I didn’t think one could find one worse than Glenno…but Frank has done it in
spades.

And he has taken this place over anyway….which is why I wrote to the
administrators. (twice now) But I’m done wasting my time on Frank. It’s what he
wants. I’ll just watch.

Glad you got a laugh…it has to be true…..

“Drove his own kid to Christ with what must have been endless TRUTH sermons
over the dinner table that left the kid pulling his hair out at night.”

hahaha That was my first real laugh of the day!!  Thank you SNED.  You know, I have noticed that all of the religious men who come here tend to lean toward me.  I find it flattering and gruesome all at the same time.  Of course, I know where it comes from.  Religion.  They believe in the misogyny of their religions and find it quite off putting that a babe like me would have the audacity to rise to their ridiculous sermons. 

SNED, you know I would love to leave Frank entirely alone, but I think he would still drone on about this truth thing that causes suicides. :D And I just can’t have a man…a muslim man at that…taking over the Atheist Manifesto thread.  :D *snicker*

You too!

I find it odd how Glenno and Mr Goodman have such an infatuation with Annie.
Frank admitted having trouble with women way about 300 posts ago. And now
he’s Valentino.

“Let’s play spot the contradiction.”

Glenno had the guts to leave….and has shown up Frank on the courage
quotient.

Frank wins the coward award.  Major? Major fraud? Major liar? Major psycho? 
Major pain in the ass.

Drove his own kid to Christ with what must have been endless TRUTH sermons
over the dinner table that left the kid pulling his hair out at night.

(We will now have a recitation on Frank’s entire family)

Frank….You are more like Glenno every day in some ways…liar, fraud in need
of attention no matter what kind…but much weaker in character. Glenno was
just a typical Christian who wanted to play in this field so he used every trick to
stay here…like his angel visions after the bike accident…You just say the same
old stuff over again to the same people apparently expecting different results
or you revel in rejection….My wife and I took in a young man in who was like
that…and it was sad because he was so bright..yet so seldf destructive..but his
dad threw him out of the house at 11, and mother committed suicide so that’s
what he knew.

I doubt that any of us here like Frank…but Frank must relish rejection. And
that’s what he taught he own kid…and that’s what he got from his own kid. At
least that’s my opinion based on all that has transpired here. Why not try
making some friends here Frank by doing what’s so hard for you do. (But the
we’d like you for leaving..and you couldn’t even handle that.)

So stay Frank. maybe if we’re all strong enough we simply won’t respond to
your posts which will be the epitome of rejection an you can wallow in that.

Goodbye! Now leave.

Is this idiocy more interesting that anything real and
reasonable? Goodbye. (You leave, not me.)

Amazing! You can jump over the chasm of errors to
questionable conclusions, but cannot get over the seam
of the obvious. Obscene!

“First
what made you believe that the person I addressed was
you? You are not Anna Banana, or are you?”

What did you do, Frank?  Bump your head? You answered MY question, and my name would be the one that would be closest to anna bannana…something I have been called before by the defeated.  Just like we know that Simple One is really simpleman.

You’re a defeated liar.  Give it up.  Oh!  And if you care to look up anything about me…feel free. hahahahahaha No, really!! Call my bluff.  haha I want you to. :D

You’re so stupid and yet you have the fat nerve to pretend to be “above it all.”  That is funny.  Thank you for the first good laugh of the day.  Busted on the age lie, busted on so many of them.  Time for you to go, whoever you are.  What a freak!! :D

By Frank Goodman, Sr., September 16 at 6:47 pm #

No, Frank.  I don’t get it.  If you rounded your age up to 81 this time last year, then why haven’t you rounded it up to 82 by now?  That doesn’t make anymore sense than anything else you’ve said.  And I do believe it took you time to come up with that lie.

Frank, quit trying to pry information from me about my personal life.  You’re an idiot if you think I can’t see the numerous times you’ve attempted it.  It’s none of your business.

You see; there are reform movements within Islamic
faiths. I use plural for the different schools of
Islam, which you may only know of as Sunna and
Shiite. There are many others. Some are based upon
trivial controversies and others on substantial
issues of science and democracy.

From the Muslim Heretics Conference:

Conference goals

The conference was meant as a gathering of Muslims
and other interested people who would like to network
and share ideas with those who agree with the
following principles:

Freedom of religion and worship
Freedom of Speech with no conditions
Rejection of all acts of aggression in the name of
religion
Tolerance of criticism
Agree to disagree about our understanding of Islam
Work towards peace and a better future for mankind

I suppose that I am a heretic to fundamentalist
Muslims. I am a heretic to all Christian faiths. I am
a heretic now to atheists and agnostics. I do not
know whether to be a proud heretic or scared to
death. I have chosen to stick to truth and reason
over all else. Honesty comes naturally to me to the
extent that I cannot lie to myself. My doctor says
that I am resistant to the placebo effect. Not
surprising to me. I never found Tylenol or Bayer to
be superior to generic Kmart acetominophen and Walmart aspirin. A
higher price for my integrity is not necessary.

From the Muslim Heretics Conference:

“Any dissenting idea against the prevailing religious
traditions is generally considered heresy. Jesus was
accused of heresy by the Jewish high council and was
handed over to the occupying Romans to be executed.
Abraham was thrown into a fiery furnace for heresy
however saved by God. Muhammad who criticized
traditions and “the way of their fathers”, slavery,
aggression, financial exploitation, racism, and
xenophobia, was a dangerous heretic according to the
tribal courts of Mecca.

Many great philosophers and religious leaders, such
as Ibn Sina and Martin Luther, were accused of heresy
and others, such as Hallaj and Giordano Bruno, gave
up their lives for their cause and beliefs. Socrates
questioned the polytheistic dogmas and was a
condemned heretic in the courts of Athenian
establishment. Tyndall who translated the Bible was
condemned to the blazing fire of the Church. Galileo
who removed the earth from the center of the
Christian universe and Darwin who meticulously
studied the origin of life were both declared
heretics by the Church. Heretical ideas have tested
the tolerance of a society and in many cases have
created the fuel of progress particularly in the area
of religion.”

Hi, Annie!!

I think Frank just gave you a good reason why he is such a bitter old man with such an apparent diseased and distorted mind.

“Old men do not need that, because we have a
lifetime of real sexual experience most of which is
not what it is cracked up to be.”

Boy, did he ever miss the boat!!  He probably thought sexual pleasure was only for men and never enjoyed the honest, overwhelming response of a fully satisfied woman.  Oh well, I guess it’s too late for him now, and that’s the truth.

Thank you, Frank!!  You just double validated my last posting.  First, you proved that you truly are a stupid jerk by attacking my honest response as I said you would and by not replying to my questions with your own honesty.  Secondly you proved that an honest answer can move the dialog forward instead of miring it down in useless diatribes.  Thirdly, you purposely misread and misinterpreted the concept of honesty.  The concept of honesty means that I have given a genuine thought and that honesty is pure.  If I am shown that what I am genuinely honest about is flawed, I must learn and revise my thought, or I am no longer honest.  Now I am going to stop this dialogue on differing philosophies, because it is off topic, but I honestly feel that your snotty nose, arrogant style of response in truly disingenuous.  I therefore have nothing further to say to you until you have honestly answered my three questions in all sincerity.  Only then can this dialogue move forward in a productive manner.

By Larry, September 13 at 5:30 pm #

Yes, Larry.  Anyone would be better than dubya.,  But Barack has left a lot to be desired.  I also think that the naivete of people who actually believed he would just come in and take up the pieces and sweep them away was almost riciulous to me.  I would watch this young half-cast man on t.v. and think “wow, everyone is all up in arms about a new black president and they forget that he came out of a white woman.  They also forget his age and lack of experience”.  Everyone just ran from the fear of another George Bush.  Fear: always the common denominator for getting the sheeple to do everything wrong.

******All such simplicities and similar ideas from
Christianity and other religions are beyond the pale
of credibility for devout Muslims. I never met Muslim
who believed it. The only source I know is the world
non-Muslim press. As though non-Muslim Associated
Press reporters and a middle aged atheist woman in New Jersey
could know what all Muslims believe.******

That’s funny.  I have never met a Muslim who didn’t believe it.  I don’t know anything about non-Muslim press nor Muslim press.  Don’t care for media.  But one thing I know for sure,...you are a liar.  It is in the Koran…the whole outline for Jihad.  The Netherlands, a once peaceful “paradise” for liberals, is now overrun with terrorists with the whole Islam get up. 

You’ve got a fat lot of nerve coiming here and saying that those are not tenet beliefs of Islam.  OH YES THEY ARE!  Full stop, ya lying dog.

Here’s a lady who KNOWS ...far more than you ever will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ

By Frank Goodman, Sr., September 13 at 10:39 pm #

Yes, Frank, if that is what he believes, that the earth is honestly flat, who’s going to tell him any different?  If he believe in all honesty that we are all aliens in human form, then so we are! 

How is that any different than YOU spouting your “Truth is Al-Haq = Allah” bullshit??

Answer please. 

BTW, a year ago you were 81.  In fact over a year ago.  When are you going to have a birthday, Frank?  I just don’t believe you.  I remember because I remarked that you were the same age as my father.  But he’s had a birthday.  You haven’t and I find that strange.  See?  I think YOU are the one who is full of bullshit.  Oh yes, I typed that out.  Bullshit.

Let me get this correct. If you believe honestly that
earth is flat, it is. If you believe honestly that 2
plus 2 equals 5, then it is. That it does not matter
what the mathematical truth is, but what you believe.
That the actual shape of the earth is not what
matters, but what you honestly believe it to be.

Cheers! We have a break through. A modern correction
of all science that has worked so hard to find what
is true are wrong because honesty is higher. Honest
belief trumps atheism. But honest atheism trumps any
other belief. I am crying because I have been wrong
all these years. I could have honestly believed
myself to be rich. What a ball I could have had with
all that wealth I could have honestly had. I honestly
believe peace is possible. There is where I am right. 
Possible, but not inevitable. I am honest in
believing peace is possible.

I just tried this one: I honestly believe truth is
over God. Damn, it worked.

Now I had another thought and I hope I am wrong. I
honestly believe you are full of…......

Frank, I can’t believe that you are such a stupid, ignorant jerk that you don’t know how to give a straight honest answer to a simple question.  I can give you straight honest answers to each and every question that you just spewed out.  I hesitate to do so, because I expect that you will use that as an excuse to avoid answering the questions that have been put to you.  However, it is somewhat childish to say I will not answer yours until you have answered mine.  In that spirit, I will give you a straight forward answer to one of your questions as an example of what I am talking about.  Then, I expect reciprosity in regards to the three questions I have put to you.

F: if truth is not the highest concept, what is? 

S: Honesty is a higher concept than truth.  Honesty is pure.  Truth is not.  I am not sure if honesty is the highest concept, only that it is higher than truth.

Well, Frank, that’s the most that’s ever come from you.  But I have to say “na-na-na boo-boo”.  I think you’re ugly all of the time.  You continuously skirt issues that you don’t wish to discuss, leaving yourself in some sort of position of self-appointed piety.  You are not any better, nor smarter than anyone here as is your constant pulpit pounding, ceremonial contention.  You’re not.  If you want to talk about truth, then I say the highest concept known to man is that we are going to die, we will not meet 72 virgins, we will not meet dead relatives, and we will not find some higher conscious level of truth.  So, your form and philosophy regarding truth, which has taken up more than it’s fair share of this thread, is not important.  Yet you go on about it as if you’re “Buddha on the mountain top”. 

There’s a concept far higher than the Al-cock and bullshit that you’re sporting.  And it’s called the truth as reality reveals it.  We’re all going to die, and your god, whether truth, or truth’s cousin Allah, does not exist in the realm you are going to.  So now you are saying that your “god” doesn’t need a name?  That’s not exactly the “Truth” then is it?  Or was your truth the part that you spouted to Warren (and others) when you proclaimed Allah (that’s a name btw) was your God, and that you are, in fact, a Muslim. 

No Muslim I know agrees with anything you’ve said.  Not one.  You’ve made up your own ideology.  Scary tactic.  Ideas are good if they’re better for people.  But when they take issue with people for-say…a cartoon over a bogus so-called prophet and call for the heads of said cartoonist(s), then your idea carries it’s weight of problems with it.  You’re either a Muslim who greases that wheel, or you’re not a Muslim.  Which is it?  I never could tell because you’ve waivered so much about it depending on who’s on the forum.  You see a fresh name; you spout Al-Haq and Allah bullshit.  No more fresh names and you start making things up to those of us who’ve been here awhile.  I presume you’re just trying to impress, but we’re not impressed.  So now you want to have a good cry.  Good.  You should, because you should be ashamed.  Yes, you.

Again, you wouldn’t know truth if it ran you over and flattened you.

Those who are honest will admit that I qualified my statement that I
agree with Harris. I agreed that Harris’ debunking of religion was
correct. But, I qualified it that I do not agree with his atheism
and that he should have gone further with his inquiry and he could
have found evidence that atheism may not fit. That is the path for
me. I do not expect everyone to follow it. However, the door is
there for Harris or anyone else. I do not shove anyone. But I do
shove back when someone shoves me. I do it respectfully and lovingly
until it gets ugly. You are all ugly to me at this time, yet I
respect your rights and all your democratic recourses. If you say I
do not, you are liars.

So what is the ax that Harris has to grind beyond a life income from
writing salable prose? Does he get into atheist heaven for debunking
all religion without redeeming recourse to what is true? Does he get
one more follower to his retinue by convincing another person that
he is right? Just what do those writers to this forum gain by
writing what they do? What do they gain for cussing and discussing
me? Who gives them their credentials? Who invited them? Who asked
them to stay? Did anyone ask them to leave? How long will they stay,
and what will they accomplish? What proof do they have that they are
right? Which one knows all truth? Which has never lied for his or
her own benefit? Where is the Atheist Church, or do they have a
Synagogue? Maybe a Temple or a Mosque. Perhaps a cathedral of
verity.

My religion is in my relationship with what is. I had no name for a
deity because I needed none. I have no patent or personal property
rights to truth. I understand that neither do any of you. Yet you
have all the rights truth gives you. You have all the rights your
government protects and all rights you wish to exercise. So when you
claim that I would deny your rights, you lie. Your truth is my
truth. Neither you nor I can delineate truth to our own purpose. You
say that a ‘personal’ pronoun or a proper noun cannot be assigned to
truth. You must not understand the facts of language. Every object
is given a personal pronoun without gender, IT. Any person can take
a personal name or names for individual reference. The purpose is in
language, not religion. As I have said before capitalizaton of
proper nouns is an English and other European custom that does not
occur in other languages, including the original language of the
Bible and the Qu’ran. Oriental languages do not use a capitalization
tradition.

I ask some more questions, if truth is not the highest concept, what
is? If truth is not God, what is not truth? If God is not truth,
what is? If truth is crap, what do atheists use to debunk religion?

Now you see, I, too, can ask more questions than you can answer. But
the answer to all questions is truth. What is not true is false and
what is false is not true. Atheism may be false, thus not true. Who
knows?

I guess I have been censored as well.  But no one has chastised me, and they had better not.  Freedom of expression is one of the last of our freedoms, and attempting to steal it is one of the most cruel things a person can do.  A few four letter words is hardly fair game for censorship unless we’re also going to admit that we do not go to the movies, nor even watch benign cartoons such as South Park or Family Guy.  I find that incredibly hipocritical.  Of course, the first amendment does not give us privey to threaten someone’s life—which I have never done, but if I want to say “Fuck”..I am going to.  Full stop.

My conscience prods me to admit that I have been censored.  It occurred when visions of the virgin Mary were being reported in hospitals and on pieces of toast.  I felt I had to report my own encounter of a vision of the virgin.  She appeared to me au natural and I graphically described her various physical attributes.  I ended by observing that Jesus must have received his first glimpse of heaven while being suckled.  I still do not how that differs from other reports of visions of the virgin, but apparently the moderators had a different opinion.

By Larry, September 12 at 7:51 pm #

Hey Larry!  I agree.  He’s turning out to be just another whore as you say or sell-out.  He even invited a prayer for Ted Kennedy’s funeral.  Clearly he was mistaken when he stated that he understood the need for separation of church and state. 

He’s trying to please everyone.  I feared for his “wet behind the ears—take everything too personally” ways even before he went to office. 

I guess there’s always hope.  However his poplularity is dropping, IMO, because he has not maintained a strong nor steady view of any one point.  You can’t please everyone.

****I agree with the arguments
of Sam Harris, but do not agree with the assumption of atheists.******

You are a liar caught in your own web yet again!!  You do NOT agree with Sam Harris and even stated so in a post a long time back.  But don’t worry yourself with my memory; it is intact, and you said many things against atheists as well as Harris’ manifesto.  You’ve even said things here in your latest post.

Just what is your problem with atheism?  That is what we are here for.  You, on the other hand, are here to proseletyze a new agenda, a new view of Islam.  It’s unforgiveable, and it’s absurd!!!!  You want to have a debate about whether religion is a good idea or not, then quit spouting your’s—which treads so closely to a Hitler-like ideology more than a religion—and start answering some of the questions that are put to you.  If you cannot do that, your integrity is in question, and again, I assure you I will have you ousted from here.

Mental masturbatory blah-blah doesn’t get it.  Accusing us of expecting you to agree with us doesn’t work either.  No one has ever asked you to agree with us.  In fact, discourse is better if you don’t!!  But you cannot seem to make up your mind as to whether you’re a Muslim (which you told Warren you were), or if you don’t believe in this religious facism that is taking over.  You dilly-dally with deceit pure and simple.  So, you haven’t been chastised?  Neither have I.  Who would have thought?  But I assure you, you will be chastised and booted if you continue to ignore the topic, and the questions put to you.  You are being reported as a troll.

We are not here to read of a new religion that a hair brained 81 year old Muslim, self-proclaimed “guru” came up with.  We are here to discuss the problems with religion which is the baisis of this thread.  You’ve just been proseletyzing a new religion.  No more.  No MORE.

F: “Here, you will find truth
vital to the issue of whether or not there is a god, and if there is
only one God or many.”

Yes, Frank and the purpose of this forum is the validity of this truth.  You do not participate in this validaton process.  You are only here to espouse your philosophy of truth itself and try to relate it to religion.  The shoe doesn’t fit!!  We are all agreed in some degree of the philosophy of truth, but not the godliness of truth.  We don’t dispute the philosophy that truth has multiple layers of expression, but none of them are godly!! Don’t you get it??  Whenever you try to equate El Haq to Allah, we present you with questions relative to that claim.  You refuse to respond to these questions which are relevant to the purposr of this forum.  That is why Annie calls you a troll!!  I agree with her, you are indeed a troll!! Now, I say again: Get with the program or get lost!!

Okay, so we are into quotes today.  Since I am just a simpleminded person who doesn’t have much use for borrowed authority, I need some help here.  Who was it that said that you can send a fool to school, but the result is an educated fool?

Socratic apology. (See Socrates, Apology) This was Socrates’ defense
against the accusation that he ‘corrupted youth’.

I have been accused of straying from the topic. Every post had to do
with the subject of Sam Harris’ article. I agree with the arguments
of Sam Harris, but do not agree with the assumption of atheists.
That is my right and a privilege in a free society. It is the intent
of the comments to register differences and agreements. The intent
is not to censor anyone substantially. Only to prevent obscene and
vulgar language and personal attacks upon the authors and writers of
comments. Beyond that TruthDig must defend itself against legal
action in torts and copyright laws.

The standard set by TruthDig is broad and forgiving. Comments are
monitored by moderators who may prevent publication of specific
posts. None of my posts have been censored or deleted. I have not
been warned not to publish or chastised in any way.

It has been said that none of the other writers agree with me.
Soooo! One said that I have my own truth and they have theirs. It is
implied that in order to publish my comment, I must agree with
Annie, Glenno, Sned, Simpleman, et al. I find that impossible. I
could not agree with everyone else on this site without a far more
nimble semantics than I have. First, why publish what everyone
agrees with? What could be gained if we all said the same thing in
different words? If we agree, why are we here?

One Senator in a hearing that everyone is entitled to their own
opinion, even if wrong, but nobody is entitled to their own truth.
My stated belief is, as an opinion, my right. My stated belief is
that nobody has a different truth from me or anyone else. All truth
is one and the same. I say that truth is over all things, acts and
events. Nobody can claim their own truth. I have tried to show, like
David Hume, that truth and matters of fact are different. Though a
matter of fact is true or not true, it is true that it is true or
true that it is not true. That is the difference. Truth cannot be
not true, but a matter of fact can be true or not true. Nothing can
be simpler or more comprehensible. Several of you call it ‘crap’ as
though your own belief rises above mine. I say none of you can
disagree with the separation of fact and truth as concepts for
thinking.  I even accept differences of belief as sacred from
censorship in a free society. You have a right to your opinion as to
the worth of an item of merchandise and may agree with the price or
not, but you may not cheat on the checkout. A contract is
acceptance, and price is truth. I have shown that there are levels
of truth. There is trivial truth and universal truth. The truth of
fact is true or false. The truth of truth is true only.

It has said that I am a liar. A reading of all my posts reveals that
I have used humor from time to time to support my theory and to
counter trivial criticism. The ‘moose’ story comes to mind. It was
not a spoof of any substantial issue, but an attempt to show the
power of fiction on the human mind. It was to show that much that
passes as fact is actually fiction believed by too many people over
historic time. Sam Harris’ article debunks much of the fiction
associated with the institutional religions. Since atheism has no
institutional presence, no fiction is found to establish atheism in
the minds of non-thinkers.

I am tempted to leave this site and never return, but the subject is
vital and needs this debate. Human association needs an anchor of
truth and truth is all we can rely upon in the final analysis of any
issue. So for those who wish to establish their own version of
truth, you will need to go elsewhere. Here, you will find truth
vital to the issue of whether or not there is a god, and if there is
only one God or many.

The SNED!  If you did that it would be fantastic!  It would move things along nicely.  I warned Warren, he didn’t listen, and he is gone.

I will have Frank removed from here.  It is time to give the space he takes up to other people who wish to come here, learn, and or remark on the Atheist Manifesto without getting caught in Frank’s web of confusing palaver.  I suggest that’s why more people haven’t really come here in a year.  And I also suggest that’s why he keeps on posting HUGE posts of nothingness.  Certainly nothing he says relates to Sam Harris’ manifesto.  It all relates to his own ideas, or as Simpleman says, “his philosophy”. 

Frank, you WILL leave if I want you gone.  Make no mistake about that.  You’ve been fairly civil but if saying “fuck you” from time to time offends your sensibilities, then I suggest that you rememeber the sensibilites you offend with this Mulsim SHIT that you’re selling, particularly because there’s absolutely nothing Muslim about it.  You do not speak for Islam, but you do insult it.  You are not incredibly intelligent as you would like to think, rather you’re transparent as a glass table.  You’re just old, lonely and bored and have no intention here but to muddy things up.

Oh yes, you will go if I want you gone.  Truth?  You wouldn’t know it if it slapped you in the ball sack.  You come here touting this shit as if it’s something to you, when all the while you’ve lied to everyone about everything under the guise of being some “elderly gentleman”.  Well, you sir, are NO gentleman!  And your mysoginitic remarks have not been wasted on me either.  When you throw a punch, do you honestly think it goes unnoticed?  I suggest you stop and think about who the stupid one is here.  Look in the mirror, first.  If Al-Haq or Al-Roker allow it, you will see the TRUTH staring back at you. 

Now pack it in.  Because I am out of patience, and you are out of things to say, have been out of things to say, andyou’ve never answered any pertinent questions.  NEVER.  That makes you a troll.  Sorry.

Months and months ago I asked the administrators of this site to not allow
Frank to post here anymore as Frank’s primary goal appears be to have on this
site at any one time his life story and his theory of truth which not one of us
here understands and or agrees with.

He takes up perhaps 60-80% of the space allotted here to himself and to his
self worship. Much worse to me is his cowardliness. His inability to accept that
our truth is not his.

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech as he has hogged this atheist
website with his truth crap for more than a year. So I will send this document to
the administrators of this web site again and ask that the coward be removed.

PS, Frank:

Philosophically speaking, my opinion is that honesty has a higher, purer value than truth.

You have contributed nothing to this forum except lip service to Sam Harris.  Your concept of truth as a religion really boils down to philosophy.  My dear octogenerion, you are truly confused.  You call yourself Muslim, but you only embrace the nice, nice philosophy of El Haq.  I think it’s time for you to find another venue.  Either get serious or get lost!

Frank’s final comment on Aug 23 after excusing Islam by differentiating Muslim radicals as schisms on Aug. 23:

“There must be a more substantial issue to quibble
about.”

It seems as though all you like to do is quibble.  I have presented you with three meatier questions and yet you refuse to address them.  Why??

Sam Harris has exploded the foolish and incomprehensible aspects of all
organized religions including Islam, Christianity, and all others that
claim a divine creator.

I agree with Sam Harris and his reasons. Yet, I see a case for a higher
concept of religion that does not have those distractingly annoying
assumptions of a willful God who demands personal subservience. Religion
should be able to rise above the simple belief of personal salvation in
an afterlife of everlasting joy and obedience. Religion should be alive
and growing in service to mankind’s better instincts of cooperation and
service. Ecumenism is a worthy goal where all could agree on the essence
of religion as a search for truth in all its ramifications.

A servant God who exists to fill every wish or a master God who exists
to be admired and extolled are not required. A God who neither needs nor
demands prayer and worship who is trusted completely and never performs
circus tricks to enhance belief would appeal to the better human spirit.
Such a God probably would not appeal to the selfish, arrogant, vulgar
mouth clowns who get their kicks from ridicule and name calling those
with whom they find disagreement.

I am not a God creator. No man can or could create God, whether God
could or could not exist. Just as the scientist does not make science,
but discovers science, I do not make God. I try to discover what and who
God is, if God exists. Now that I have found a concept that fits all the
essentials of a possible God, I offered that in good faith to the
readers here. All the decent thinkers have left and only the rabble
remain. I am not a Nixon. You may have to kick me around some more. I
will not leave, though you may not see my posts from time to time as I
lurk and lurch. I will try to answer honest questions, but will not
answer those intended to insult any religion.

If truth is an insult to you and your views, I suggest that you find
another venue.