Wow!  Let’s introduce her to my brother!  Maybe that way, they’ll go all dysfunctional on each other and kill each other. :D

It does help me that I am waaaay far away from any of them and get all of my information 2nd and 3rd hand over the wire now.  I understand now why my oldest and more sane brother left to live so far away at 20.

Thank you for what you said, Tom.  It was really nice of you. I wish I didn’t cry so many literal tears…but they are all for my dad. I have been in a broken family for so long that doesn’t bother me too much anymore.  But with my dad gone, and living so far away—it was hard to know what was happening at any given time.  Then the “I will see him agains” made me crazy ...fuck nuts crazy!  It just exacerbated the pain.  Frickin’ scripture quoting about King David who was ALMOST ALWAYS talking about a war in his prayers.  “but they’re so poetic if you don’t really pay attention to what they’re about”.

Blech.  I have to fly out again Thursday and then again in April. >:^(

Just to add to the disfunction when my mother died (Whom I despised alive, but as dead respected)my sister, who has some head problems, had the wake in an out of town funeral home my mother didn’t want, was going to have an open casket…(Which my my mother hated) so I threatened to close it and sit on closed if that happened (It didn’t)...and a year later I found out that she had a memorial service for my mother attended by childhood friends of mine who came from hundreds of miles away..only to not find me there…because I wasn’t told about the service…nor was I told that I was an executor of the estate by her or the lawyer. Sooner or later s—t happens even in families.(I tend to forget this but it came up last night over dinner with friends…now I’m pissed again)

Ah Reit I didn’t say it was hard to believe. but “Intriguing and perplexing.” Qualifying,in my last sentence, in the difference between Australia and the U S A.
On quieter reflection I must put it down to the disparity between average education levels.  Without a doubt there is a correlation between low education levels and Fundamentalist religious beliefs.  Before better educated but religious people object, please note the “Average” and that I did not specifically state Christian.

When general education is lacking there is a tendency to not see other points of view, once again not just with religion. With tunnel vision and certainty of righteous conviction there is also a tendency to be aggressive. This applies to any religion but is, at present, manifested by extremist Muslims, or for that matter those who form the military expeditions against Islamic eastern nations.

So, once again, education seems to be the common denominator. I saying,or accepting, this it does seem that the change will be a long time coming in the U S A, and I hastily add, many other countries also.

All the above being said. I do find it even more troublesome that familial affiliation can be so adversely affected by a single non conformist. I would have thought “Love” for a child or sibling was the supreme emotion.  I have seen my sister thrice in the past sixty years, this also was the same with my late brother, the bonds of affection have never diminished. My brother never left his, admittedly very weak, Episcopalian religion. He was certainly more leftist than I.  A stronger Union supporter, and Official.

I feel deep sympathy for your position Reit Family break ups, for any reason, are extremely hard. Maybe one day they will see the light and realise that, in the Quaker idiom.  It comes from within. Even the Catholics love to quote that passage from 1 Corinthians 4, Love is. etc.,.... Maybe you should offer this letter and the passage from Corinthians to your estranged family.  Then again they may be like many Christians, Accept only those passages that agree with their particular form of bigotry.

For what it is worth Hugs, and metaphorically, weep
on my shoulder..

Why do you find it hard to believe when you said it so well?  I am a citizen of the United States and while it is concidered a democracy, by and large, you are not allowed your deomcratic rights when it comes to neither politics nor religion.  The right wing funei nutjobs will always attempt to diminate and bully - usually with great results for their part.

Thus, I am an outcast.

I find it both intriguing and perplexing that a family would reject you because of you divergence from their beliefs religious or political. I’ve never experienced it, but then, whilst my extended family is scattered far and wide, they are mostly irreligious anyway. My mother, a terribly superstitious woman, was a Spiritualist.

I live 12 miles from a small township of less than 6,000 people.  Because of my contributions to the local newspaper I am relatively well known.  My relationships with towns folk is amicable, I count as acquaintances and friends S D A’s and followers of most of the other religions. I have never actually encountered hostility or rejection by any because of my non religious outlook.  Politically I have been, in the past, a distributor of “How to vote” cards at elections. All the “Parties” are represented and it is not unusual to see them all chatting in a friendly way with each other.  Indeed I can recall my handing out the cards of two other parties along with the one I represented (Greens).

There are, of course some odd balls who are antagonistic.  But this is the point, THEY are the minority. It seems that in the U S A this acceptance of other people’s points of view is somehow lacking.

As a case in point, and at the highest level of Government The Deputy Leader,  and then, the next to be Prime Minister, a member of the Liberal (Right Wing)Party had a brother who was a leading light of the Labor(Left wing) Party, he is also a Minister in the Baptist Church.  Now to Americans that really is a contradiction in terms.

Australians and Americans all seem to think we have a lot in common, and so we do, but evidently not in
Religion and Politics.

That’s sad about your mom.  I would steer clear in that case, too.  And I can say..at least your brother talks to you.  I am an outcast. So, you’re ahead of the eight ball.

They know and I try not to engage in that area but sometimes they want to. My mother is going through trying times with cancers so I stay away from anything like that. However My second oldest brother, I am the oldest, will occasionally engage me. But curiously the last time he told me that “You don’t know everything” as a prelude to our geopolitical discussion. I found that interesting.

NG, yes I have heard of the absorption thing, too.  It’s funny how if one chooses to abort, it’s wrong, but if God sees fit to allow a miscarriage it’s all good because it’s from above and there’s an unseen and unknown, yet widely accepted reason for it. Palaver.

Can I ask you..does your family disclude you?  Or do they not know how you think on your own? I find I am discluded the most.  Before my father passed away, I was discluded comepletely by everyone except him.  His passing caused a couple of my siblings to be a little more friendly.  But they all still keep their distance pretty well.

NG, yes I have heard of the absorption thing, too.  It’s funny how if one chooses to abort, it’s wrong, but if God sees fit to allow a miscarriage it’s all good because it’s from above and there’s an unseen and unknown, yet widely accepted reason for it. Palaver.

Can I ask you..does your family disclude you?  Or do they not know how you think on your own? I find I am discluded the most.  Before my father passed away, I was discluded comepletely by everyone except him.  His passing caused a couple of my siblings to be a little more firendly.  But they all still keep their distance pretty well.

Reit1 I am like you in that I am the odd man out in my family. I am the only one not a right winger nor religious in any way.

Isn’t it true that many of us start out as twins and sometimes they are absorbed by the other or just die long before birth?

Not wishing to be pedantic Reit. Surely in most cases you don’t chose your religion. It does happen, but generally it is chosen for you.

My late wife was brought up as a Catholic, even to the point of once applying for “Holy Orders.”  She had been boarding with lovely Nuns of an American Order, in Rose bay Sydney. The Priest interviewing her, was maybe very perceptive,  he said. “Go home to Queensland Eileen for three months and if you are still of a mind we’ll see about it then.”  She never returned and always complained they never sent her clothes to her.  Embraced the Quakers and I am not
surprised, because if there ever was a real Quaker it was she. Funny thing was that she was absolutely sure that J C,was not a son of God,nor his mother a virgin, and she had strong doubts about Big Daddy too.  Not my influence. But that’s Quakers.  Believe as much, or as little, as you wish, they do not dictate. Except. You can thump the Bible but not each other. Peace be unto us. Tom E

..oops..rather I meant..one person split into two.

ha! That’s one of my favourite t-shirts. “Theres a sucker born again every minute” :D

I only meant that I wasn’t surprised about twins…particularly identical.  They come from the same sperm cell, the same egg and the DNA similarities are often uncanny.  Its as if two people split into one.  They look alike and often marry twin sisters/brothers and live their whole lives together.  One set that I know cannot live without each other.  One is right handed and the other left…like a completeion of some sort.

In that way I am not surprised about these boys.  But mostly I think it’s along the lines of geography—what religion you choose or not.

Reit.

Please he is right on the money.Your genes are virtually replicated in twins, or even family.

It is nothing to marvel at. In America, regardless of where you reside, chances are you will be, in spite of being born without beliefs, indoctrinated thereafter in the faith of your fathers.  happens elsewhere.

The God gene?? Well it is also known as the gullibility gene. Some people are born to be suckers.

Twins..I am not surprised.  But it’s enough to make me wonder if I were adopted sine I am nothing like my right-wing, fundie xian family who not only LOVE the death penalty, but abhor abortion.  My oldest brother who takes a great deal of pride when he hits a bunny rabbit with his roadster while driving (I actually like this brother)..has a daughter who is much more like me, though.  And he loves playing verbal volleyball with her until she cries.  She is in her 20’s.  I give it time before she verbally throws him to the mat.  Everyone knows that the more liberal your views, the more you are humanistic. So sorry if you don’t agree, but it’s a fact. That’s why we’re called “bleeding hearts”...cause we give a fuck.

I’m cleaning up

Found another gene theory reference from 1992…“Born to Believe..your values about god, home and country may be influenced by your genes.”

Story concerns twins separated at birth who met at 31 had were incredibly alike even inthe way they think.

Link to the article is so long it’s easier to do an advanced Google search- words in quotes required in that sequence plus authors name. Interesting article.

MCAULIFFE “BORN TO BELIEVE “

BUT…here’s the link
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rQ-vrbDi5r4J:www.kmcauliffe.com/Kathleen_McAuliffe/Evolution_files/92BornToBelieve.pdf+MCAULIFFE+“BORN+TO+BELIEVE+”&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShKMe-pNiohYHRt5ot-zIirLvQxZLXwQ9hs7iYj2SKr1vjE8XR6gw1ekee2_8zey6f5QD-kOFDVb74JDppjgMEjOvkDxY5gqV1GWj3GGEBseYZLVctKCjOREDwSLygJdiNtRUhS&sig=AHIEtbRq7qwrxTdOttgS7bqeJM3AkAEDkg

ha!  You’re in luck!  I have phone numbers. It appears the internet really IS the place. :D

Perception is 9/10ths reality isn’t it? Now if only I could find a significant other without a car.

I think I’ve referred to the Time article on Theresa before. I know where I read it…in a cheap sandwich shop in MA..and I turned to my wife as I was reading it and said..“I’ll bet she lost her faith after she began working with sick and dying kids….you can only have so many prayers go unanswered before you know that “no” all the time means “No god.”  I was right.

On the other hand I have a relative who claims that Jesus brought he and his second wife together without a thought about statistics and the fact that they were looking for each other on a Christian single web site.

Like the odds that both of them would find someone were pretty high without Jesus…and neither blamed Jesus for their divorces. Point is when you have one prayer allegedly answered out of some prayers…God did it…but when you have cause to save a children’s lives day in and day out and you pray for them and they get sick and die anyway…you get smarter.

But the church will make her a saint anyway.

And then there’s the sgtory of my wife and I in a real Mexican town finding a couple ..she Mexican and he Peruvian, running a tiny sandwich shop..and I asked how they met being 3-5000 miles apart…and the answer…“On line.” I almost fell of the chair. Turns out they were both Mormons searching for a mate on a Mormon singles web site. Go figure.
The world is getting smaller. PS…my relative and his wife are living 300 miles apart….and get together on weekends and such because her house is in a great town…and his is in a not so great town but that’s where he has a good career and retirement looming. (Jesus did not make it easy for them)

You know what?  I just found this on the net..  I think this was the journal as quoted by my atheist friends.  Come be my light..etc. She was obviously a tromentented agnostic at least. 

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html

No, not really.  I read some of her journal that was posted on an atheist blog on myspace.  In the end she had given up on God.  But throughout the journal (and I heared..don’t know for sure…that the RCC is trying to make excuses for her words) but Sam Harris covers some of it here:  http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/sam_harris/2007/08/the_sacrifice_of_reason.html

Reit1, I have never heard that before. I remember how she was criticized for allowing people in her care to suffer (good for the soul etc) as in her religion of Catholicism and didn’t spend the millions she was given to alleviate it. So I have a contradiction here. Can you give any sources for this allegation?

Mother Theresa-perfect example.  we now know that she was an atheist for a large part of her life, yet she continued to do good because it was in her nature.  I particularly love the way she used the churh as a catalyst for getting into places that she otherwise wouldn’t have gotten into if she hadn’t been affiliated with such a “power”. (cities that were bombed heavily, etc.)

Using good to trump evil is good for me!

Night Gaunt Bang on target.

My dearest, departed, friend was a fundamentalist Church (Nazarene) Pastor.  A better man I have never met.

It matters not if you are agnostic/atheist/RC/AC.DC/ or BC.  How you use what you have is the only criteria.
Kennedy was so wrong with his oft quoted “Ask not what can my country do for me”  the final passage should have been. “Do whatever you can for the world.”

When it comes down to it the religion is the facilitator and the human is the main component. Whether secular or religious determines just how good or evil it will be. If you are a Gandhi will will act in a good way no matter what the religion says whereas if you are a Stalin you will be as cruel, murderous and evil no matter what the Constitution says. It is also up to the people to make sure the best persons are in charge of the gov’t and church, and to keep them separate.

Addendum to the God Gene.

Some 35 years ago I worked with a white woman who, as a child, wanted to play with black dolls. I suggested to her then, that perhaps one of her ancestors was captain of a slave ship, whose guilt was so great that it changed his genes/dna.

Years later that same woman discovered that one of her ancestors was very involved in the emancipation of blacks. I asked her for the details… what follows is her letter back to me.

“My gg grandfather, Capt. William Henry Folmsbee was in the First Cavalry Regiment, Missouri State Militia in the Civil War. He was a prominent Radical Republican who was active in politics and a representative to the 1864 Missouri Constitutional Convention in St. Louis.
As someone wrote recently:
The Republican Party of the 1860s was a completely different entity than today’s conservative GOP. Even though Lincoln was a moderate, his party’s base of support was in the Northeast/New England and was made up of former Whigs, Free Soilers, Radical Republicans and abolitionists (i.e., America’s first “bleeding-heart liberals”). The Democratic Party at that time was the party of “states rights”, wealthy plantation owners and slave-holders, and rather arch-conservative elements. There was nothing more conservative than a Southern Democrat. It was the liberals of the day who fought for civil rights, just as it is today. The letters R and D have no bearing on it.
I can’t put my fingers on Dr. Folmsbee’s obit right now, but from the way it was written, I don’t think he was too popular in his racist hometown of Gallatin, MO in the late 1890s. It certainly was racist in 1995 (no blacks) when we were there.
Dr. Folmsbee’s wife, was Harriet Salome Brown. Her obituary claimed she was “very kindly toward blacks.”  Some were neighbors.
Now, you might ask, how did William and Harriet come to be abolitionists? They grew up in Cincinnati, where Harriet’s family was Presbyterian and I suspect attended the church where Lyman Beecher preached. William was taken in by Dr. Vincent Caldwell Marshall (who lived near Lyman Beecher) and who was Quaker. William’s father, Isaac was Dutch Reformed but married into the Swift family, who were also Quaker. The way these people intermarried, I don’t think they were staunch in their separate religions.  Cincinnati was a real hotbed for the underground railroad.
http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=53
As you know, Lyman’s daughter was Harriet Beecher Stowe, b. 1811 and wrote Uncle Tom’s Cabin. My suspicion is that Harriet Salome Brown b. 1825 was named for Harriet Beecher. One of William and Harriet’s daughters (my great grandmother) named a son Lyman. Since there is no Lyman family lineage, it’s a relatively unusual given name, and I suspect comes from Lyman Beecher. So there you have it.”

Of course all of this doesn’t prove a thing…but it provides at least one answer to some unique behavior.

Thank you Reit.  I can only have a small inkling of your problems.

Things here can be so much simpler.  When my wife died everything was mine.  We have the State Public Curator
as an administrator.  For four hundred dollars the whole lot was transferred, Bank accounts re arranged, Even the vehicle, which was in her name although she didn’t drive, had the registration transferred.
I had no large amounts of cash so that was no problem.
I didn’t even have to make a personal appearance. Two phone calls, and all the paperwork was by mail. Two weeks and finished.  Simple.

Get in touch whenever you feel inclined.

Take it easy, stress can be a dreadful thing. Tom E

Tom, you are right about me not reading entirely and i do apologise.  I have a thousand things going on.  I am flying back and forth from place to place to take care of my father’s estate and handle a sibling who is in dire need of psychiatric help.  It’s going through the courts and I have to stay on top of it.  I am still very blurry..can’t explain in an open forum, and I do appreciate your trust in giving me your email address.  I think when this has sbusided for me a bit, we will have better communication, and i will read more thoroughly.

As far as the last part about an atheist with selective antagonism, well..we are many!  Just look at the atheists in the US.  They are very intolerant of the Bible above the other three A-faiths.  The Koran, is a good subject, but nothing gets them going like quoting the Bible to them.  I have been on a lot of blogs and this is the recurring theme.  So I did scathe through your post, and the end caught me.  I know it’s not uncommon.  One day i will explain why I have such a disdain for Islam and you will understand.  I will write you in a personal email, though, ok? 

For now, I have to call a brother in Russian.  Yes, Russia.  I will check in tomorrow, though.

Sned,
I really do not have any response. Thanks for the posts. I really have nothing to add or say. I do appreciate the time. I enjoyed the read.

I feel obligated to give you something. I just do not know what to give.

So you are ahead of the game and I am behind in the times. That’s fine.

This is your thing – learning and all – you have been practicing it since being a kid. When a person studies and gains knowledge say in carpentry, he gets satisfaction with an end result. That end result being a good paying job or the homes and stuff that he builds.

Here’s your end result, Sned. You are right. You are more knowledgeable on the subject of politics, science, history and most of all religion – than I. You are more knowledgeable on religion than most if not all religious people. That’s it. There’s your end result and maybe there’s your satisfaction.

Take care.

It has been nice.

Mike

Oh Reit, Once again you either do not read, or will not
respond to what is written. I very specifically said I would not live there nor would I wish to in the other countries specified, America included.

Using the hands to eat is very often a cultural thing and nothing to do with evolving. I notice you ignored the Hamburger/Hotdog.  Indonesia, the largest Muslim country on earth, actually uses eating implements.  As an anecdote I remember my Dutch emigre employer from those islands who, when the Dutch were kicked out, could not bring his wealth in cash,  (It was worthless) so he bought a Gold Dining Service.  Only to find on arrival in Australia that Dinner KNIVES were not included.  The Indonesians, whilst using implements had no need of knives as they still cooked in the oriental way i.e. food was pre cut before cooking.  Much more sensible, cooks faster and easier to serve.

It is unusual in an atheist to find such selective antagonism. I have repeatedly acknowledged that the extremists of Islam are a real problem. You counter by saying they are the cause of more killings than others.  Correction.  America, and its coerced and bought allies, Australia included, have been the direct cause of death to well over a million Iraqis alone.  The number of Afghans joining this number grows daily, most of them are non combatants, mainly civilians women and children.  Even tho

I guess we can all agree that all thee Abrhamic faiths are primtive and backwards, but no one wears it on the outside so well as Islam.  Funny, they are the last to protest on blogs like this one..likely because they are too busy planning our annhilation, while xians can only dream about it in the western world.  And Jews, well, Tel-Aviv..another city that never sleeps appears to be sane, yet they have guards that stnad by a wall to beat down ..yes, even little children of Palestine with the butt of their guns just for getting too near.  Because as Sam Harris put it “God being the real estate investor that he is gave them that little piece of land.”

As for the Amish well, they wear it on the outside and yet they will pay all the sinners (the rest of us) to do the “progressive work” for them.  i.e. Use of tractors and farm equipment.  Hipocrisy runs rampant in all three Abrahamic faiths, no matter what the sect or denomination.  However, only a Muslim has directives from his sky father to strap on a bomb and kill innocent infidels as part of their tenet laws.

Xianty= Primtive and backwards
Judaism= Primitive and backwards
Islam= Primitive and backwards.

As for eating with your hands like the Brits and native Americans did “back in the days” <is my point exactly.  There’s nothing wrong with a woman wearing the same garb as a man.  But don’t tell that to a Muslim.  No, no no.  They have yet to evolve.  let’s hope they do before they blow some othe skyscraper out of the sky as duty to their heavenly father.  and let’s hope they start using tables and forks and spoons, letting the females hair and face out.  And in Tehran and Turkey they most definitely do NOT allow these things.  I know a few things about a few things. And Islam is the biggest threat today.  On a global scale, no other group causes more blood to run in the streeets.  Some can argue GW, but he didn’t stand for a group pf people…he stood by himself and for himself.  And he will go down in history as one of the most blood thristy leaders of America.  However, the US did not care for him and let him know it, unfortunately too late.  You can never tell the Shah of Iran the same.  You will be BEATEN.  But I say if you find so much peace there, live there awhile.  something tellsme that your mind will change and start to favour the more evolved xian societies.  As for Jews in Israel, they’re too cliquish for me to bother mentioning them..other than their babaric war with Palestine.

Reit my dear.  Tolerance.  I doubt that you have been to Iran/Iraq/Arabia as many times as I, and my visits have, by no means,  encouraged me to be a Muslim any more than my visits to the U S A enticed me towards Christianity. In both instances the opposite actually.

To liken all followers of Islam to those of Arabia or The Sudan is to equate all Americans with the backwoodsmen of the Ozarks or those Amish you laugh at.
The Amish in particular are no more outlandish in dress than many a Priest. I can’t recall them ever being a threat to anybody other than their own, even then not physically.

Eating with hands? Well this is not confined to Muslims.  Most Indians do.  Polynesians historically did, so did the Brits and Native Americans in early days. If I recall correctly Modern Americans still eat Hamburgers, Hot Dogs, etc without implements, Australians think it peculiar to eat a meat pie any other way than with their hands and directly from a paper bag.  My Pastor friend when visiting Texas for a Church convention was horrified when his dessert was served on the same plate as the main meal. maybe a convention of that area, and time.  Sensible really, saved washing up and presumably they wiped the plate with “Biscuit.” from the preceding food.
I am reminded of my Chinese neighbour, when eating at his place, waved his chopsticks saying.  “We invented these two thousand years before you lot made a fork.  Bloody slow though.”

Believe me Teheran you would find to be as westernised as any European City, but with a culture going back much further than the U S A (and Islam) has existed. The Burqha, in Teheran, is not generally known although the excessive covering up is. Is it any different to the (fashionable)near nudity on some streets in the West?  Actually the problem either way is all in the minds of the depraved male.  You didn’t indicate if you would like to read “Not without my make up.” that I offered to send you.

Yes Islam is a primitive religion as is Christianity,  Hinduism, etc., This doesn’t presuppose that all Americans or all Iranians , even if adherents of those religions are primitive. there are some that would fit the category in all countries , and admittedly because of brainwashing, more so in Islamic countries.

I have walked the streets of Pakistan, India, Iraq, Iran, Felt neither more nor less safe than in America, Italy, U.K. or Holland. I wouldn’t chose to live in any of those cities or countries I don’t see any of them being predominately primitive, whilst reserving that for some of the inhabitants of ALL the countries.

Sned ...So much of which I agree.  There are some things we can neither see nor touch but in which we believe, although there is plenty of supporting evidence, Gravity, Tectonic Plates.Radiation, Sound Waves.
Therein lies the difference Gods.  can’t see them, smell them, touch them without an ounce of supportive evidence except some people claim they have experienced them.  Trouble is Hindus experience their particular Gods as do all the other differing religions.  Others experience being Napoleon or Joan of Arc even Jesus Christ, but they receive treatment.
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

The priest I refer to in the end of my posts below is JOHN CORAPI. He’s all over u-tube and on EWTN. Scary guy.

Dear Mike

Having been an avid reader of scientific magazines since I was a kid, the concept of the “god gene” is old news to me (here’s a time cover from 6 years ago) http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20041025,00.html. FYI I am a strong believer in the power of DNA to carry far more than instructions to build a person. I firmly believe that strong emotional events can change DNA and we have already proven that knowledge can be passed down in worm studies, where offspring of trained worms will learn the parent learned task faster than the offspring of a control group. So called “junk” DNA is being found to be not so much junk after all.  So it is highly possible that some people have a “god gene.”
But if that is true is seems to me there’s also a “lack of curiosity gene” that these same folks are blessed with. It’s also possible that there’s a Catholic gene…that develops a need to fear god and hell etc. etc. etc. Everything in that junk park is possible. So in my book you’re simply way behind the times. If anything…like the invention of God…the gene isn’t god given, but man made…over time.(see “worms” later on)

Your stated that “you supress your need to worship a Being by trying so hard to disprove one.” Thank you for your unqualified shrink-think but you are not only wrong about me but every atheist that posts here.

My history is well documented on this web site but I’ll give the brief review. Raised a Presbyterian active through freshman year college at the local regional and national level. ALWAYS had doubts and the Presbyterians of that day allowed me to think without fear of god punishing me. Something Roman Catholics do not experience.(Don’t read this don’t examine that don’t play with this don’t mess with that) I also got religion when I was in love…but infatuation only lasts so long and then reality hit home. It was religion itself that turned me into an atheist because its insistence on lying to people whether RCC or Protestant or any other structured religion.

People like your mother ands my mother in-law and brothert in-law who are religious without an ounce of curiosity intrigue me and frustrate me.
You might say that that’s my genetic make-u up. But curiosity was also born into me by my own parents who never said that any idea I ever had was dumb or stupid. They encouraged me think on my own.  My parents were also anti Catholic. Father raised a Catholic and mother a German Lutheran.  That’s it Mike. That’s me.

Remember my friend, atheists believe in what we see and hear touch and feel Believers believe not only in a god but an incredible number of unproven magical mystical things that I enumerated here not too long ago…begining with the

soul, the hereafter, belief in the validity of the bible   and its authors and copyists etc. etc. etc.

So I agree that there can be a god gene…that probably comes attached to a lack of curiosity gene…or a major brain blind spot. Maybe it a “I must feel content gene”..for sure I don’t have it when it comes to religion.

I do have a relative that fits the god gene picture. He is far more interested in a priest martyred by Indians than he is in what Christianity did to the Indians. What stopped his brain at martyr? He’s not stupid. He’s educated. But he missed the greater bad over a lesser (cough cough) good.

You failed to answer my question about a secular Europe. Perhaps because you can’t see that forest for the trees either. 20 million people died in Europe in WW 2. God didn’t answer enough prayers…and religion failed big time in so many ways.

Mother Theresa (who will laughingly be made a saint) died an atheist because unlike you and me she experienced death and disease everyday and she got too many unanswered prayers to believe that god existed or was worth praying to.

Finally there is no proof that our intelligence is anything but a bad mutattion…good for nothing but its ability to destroy. Only the primitive peoples are part of this earth…the rest of us just consume it. And we American have had it easy. No major war here in 160 years. Europe two major wars in only 50 years. Millions of innocents dead. Millions of other deliberately murdered. That caused people to think beyond their god genes and they got rid of those genes. Gave em to Good Will.

Of all the major Christian churches the RCC is home to some of the most ridiculous irrational and hateful beliefs that I’m not about to turn the other cheek if someone wants to defend it or it’s member..but my argument is with the hierarchy that steeps itself in secrecy…and promotes fear, promotes recipes to heaven (say this Novena 10 times and wait 4 days for something to happen)relic veneration..that compete with he most pagan of religions.

Is your mother a good person? Probably. Never said she wasn’t. Is she curious about her religion?Probably not . She’s like my mother in-law who keeps a Bible next to her bed but admits she’s never ever read it.

As to your comment that I want to conquer something. The only thing I want to conquer is ignorance. It’s one thing to believe that god exists something else to believe that your parent’s god was IT. That alone should cause some curiosity.  But that’s the way it happens around the world. It’s another thing to listen to unmarried fatherless most likely gay hierarchy condemn homosexuality, birth control, abortion, masturbation, reading, thinking for themselves etc in addition to being anti women.

If you think I’m wrong I heard that bald headed dynamic wrestler look-alike priest (whose name I can’t recall) one day proclaim to his TV audience in his booming voice..that “If you even think that Mary was anything but a virgin you have excommunicated yourself.Only the magisterium can interpret the Bible You can’t.”

I couldn’t make it up. I would want to make it up. It says it all in a sentence. “Don’t think….we will do it for you.”

Ahh what a blameless life. They’ll think for me. How sweet.

So much for thinking on one’s own. And I hate the idea that you shouldn’t think on your own…god gene or no god gene.. Any questions?

Hi Tom,  yes they are (Iran and Iraq) primitive and backwards.  Just because they have oil and money, doesn’t mean that bowing to mecca each day and making your women wear burqas is evolving.  It reminds me of a bunch of Amish people in a grocery store.  These sites are laughable.  The mosques are outrageously fantastic, while the people sit on the floor to eat with their hands after bowing to mecca…everyday.  And they do it in flowing robes and Islamic hats (whatever THEY are called).  Except the women.  They have to pull the burqua skirt away from their face to eat. :D It’s funny to me!!  They believe that you can beat your wife, as taught in the koran, and all these stupid Islamic laws about the Imam holy land blah blah.  Look at the once cool Cat Stevens (now Yusef Islam)..he looks like a 1500 year old idiot.  Yet, I am quite sure he had money as did Mohammed himself.  *married a 9 year old girl*  OMG!  I remember being a 9 year old girl and if some 50 year old man had married me I wouldnt have made it to 10.  That’s just gross to a child.  Oops, digressed a little to show you that just because a city has money, doesn’t mean that it’s people have evolved mentally.
Primitive and backwards.  Absolutely.

Stirring the Mud? Yep. Whenever it is presented.

As I recall you are the one who complained of not having ALL your salient points addressed. How many of your fingers point back?

Funny how a different interpretation can ensue.  I thought that documentary showed terror at being forcibly removed from her kith and kin.

You support the extrapolation of information regarding beliefs in God and Rapists from a few 100,000 year old bones.  How?

Reit. Sorry my dear.“Iraqi and Iranians names and Primitive ways.?”  Now I’ll go along with their religious beliefs being medieval. Primitive? and as for their ways. I have been, in the past, in that area on over a dozen visits, their ways weren’t even primitive then.  As a matter of fact Baghdad and Teheran vied with many an American city of comparable size, and surpassed all in history and culture. Even Abadan, a small port town, had facilities surpassing many Mississippi/Missouri/Alabama townships. Teheran is today a thriving very modern city, comparing favourably with many a sophisticated European metropolis.  The country itself(Iran/Persia)has never attacked outside its own borders in 400 years.  How many times has America in the past 100 years.? If that was the measure I know what an extra terrestrial would consider the “Primitive.” however that doesn’t deny the religion is medieval and backward nor that many adherents are besotted and misled. Bit like Christianity and the Bible Belters really. Remember, prior to the Gulf Wars, Iraq had free education to tertiary level for both male and female. O K it had an unacceptable Dictator, so did a dozen other countries, some worse than Hussein.But they didn’t have proximity to oil and Israel. remember also Hussein held elections. Yep they were rigged.  Who was the teacher Hussein or Bush? As I said.. Hell being a “Skeptic”.

Tom,

I stand corrected. It is the Iraqi war.  But (and not to dismiss my error) I was just rapping to this tune by the Rational response Squad where the singer was saying “And I’m not sayin’ we should go bomb Iran, but we can’t have peace ‘til Islam is gone.”

So, there you have it.  It’s pretty easy to tell the difference between persia and iraq. Although their names and primitive ways are all too familiar since the gulf war, etc.

Tom,

Maybe morality would have existed. If a clan of humans invaded another clan of human’s dwelling and killed all the men and raped their women then kept them as their sex and food gathering slaves, I would think that somehow those women would consider it “wrong”.

So the “rape gene” would be passed down along with the strongest, the biggest and the most intelligent traits of the human race. If you are a man, you should admit that you have those sexual thoughts now and then. Similar thoughts that you described about “stealing” and suppressing those urges.

Recently, I saw a documentary about our closest relative in the gene pool - Orangutans, Tom. And, you guessed it. A nearby outsider tried to “kidnap” and rape one of the group’s females. She was screaming and terrified – one female and other males came to her rescue. She was depressed and shaken till the episode’s end. So, I believe you to be 100 percent wrong to dismiss rape in the primal days to be non-existent due to the fact that the humans would simply consider it a natural urge. “Sure, kill my mate and offspring and ram that thing in me forcefully and make me bleed and hurt…ya, I am starting to enjoy this also now.”
See, an atheist thinking like a biblical figure from the old testament regarding the female race.

Or, Tom are YOU just here to stir the mud?

thanks Annie.

I will read that book. You steered me to this link/page

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/11/the_faith_instinct_how_religio.php

and this alone is right on target to my thoughts and point.

I never read or heard a thought on this subject - my thoughts evolved from my own mind - just thinking while the pouch runs from me with a long stem of tall grass sideways in her mouth.

Instinctively, pursueing that notion and act. So, she never had that learned behavior from another dog. Could possibly humans be naturally chasing that Higher Being instilled with fear (primitive lightning strikes and such? Could our own education and present knowledge be suppressing or re-training those reflexes?

A deer involuntaryly reacts to a quick nearby movement and escapes unharmed. Genes passed down with natural selection - caught and eaten deer can not reproduce.

This explains the deer’s natural and instinctive reaction. This does not seem to explain (the natural behavior to believe in a Higher Being through natural selectivity) my posted theory. Unless, maybe Annie, all the primitive humans who believed in some form of God or Thing killed off all the non-belivers. This you may believe could be true -hahaha.

thanks for the book/link.

RANDY Thornhill.  The name is so apt.  Seems more like an apologist for rapists. 

By jiggling here and jugggling there one could always find an excuse for any behaviour, ask any Statistician.
One does wonder how the interpretation comes about over a 100,000 year period.  Let us consider that for the “Believers” who think morality is only possible with “God Belief.” How do we extrapolate from a few bones a belief in Gods 100,000 years ago? Now consider that it is very unlikely that such religious beliefs prevailed, the humans then would consider sexual activity a biological urge, morality would not enter the equation, in other words the concept of “Rape” did not exist. So how was there such a thing as a rape gene?  No to my mind this sounds like Rapists or wannabes looking for a sop for their consciences, if they actually have one.

A little like Kleptomaniacs.  Now I, freely admit, I have the urge, sometimes, to avoid paying for an item in the Supermarket, who by their monopolistic prices are robbing me.  I have suppressed that urge. I reckon anything under a half million isn’t worth the risk, and anything from there on would be even riskier, apart from not having the wish to lower my own personal standards.

Reit. Once again I point out that intensity of religion is closely linked to poor educational standards.  The Bible Belt compared to the largely secular States proves, abundantly, the point.
It is similar in the Islamic countries.  The poorer in wealth and education are the most fundamentalist, aggressive and primitive.

may I be so bold as to make a correction?  You said Iran.  I think you meant Iraq.  A common enough error, especially with Americans.  Iraq is where it is happening. Iran is where they want it to happen.
Basically for the same reason 1. Oil 2. Israel. both countries are strategically placed and antagonistic to Israel.Afghanistan whilst not oil rich is similar,
the strategic positioning is the same. The oil? It needs to be transported over that country by pipe line.  I know things aren’t that simple, unless you are an Ocham’s Razor fan.  Could be that America just needs more international empire for another military “Base. It is hell being a “Skeptic.”

Sned,

To satisfy your anti-catholic needs, I will answer one of your questions and let you ignore all previous points.

You say: Less catholic church attending thus less anti-gays – you insinuate.

I could say: Less catholic church attending thus more crime in the country.

(we can not say either statements to be true - how ya going to prove/disprove such broad statements?)

Give it up, Sned. Read a book that will not fuel that desire of yours.

You may not be anti-gay but you are anti-something. I bet a Gay Devote Christian confuses you greatly. Should I hate him or should I embrace him?

btw - again this is not an atheist site. Posts are comments to Harris’ manifesto. If the Pope/Church preached anti-gayism in the past and their sheep listened… Harris and others are preaching that gay acceptance is and should now be the proper norm and their sheep are listening…Hundreds of years ago, Men in France wore dresses and openly slept with boys…What will tomorrow bring? And who will be to blame for tomorrow’s present social “negative” behavior?

Mike,

I found this on the web,.  It might interest you.  What I found most interesting is that the two words “instint” and “faith” are intertwined.  Also, “genetic predispostion” to faith is also stated as being genetic only insomuch as there were religious precursors.  i.e. (Taken from Nicholas Wade’s “the Faith Instinct)”:

  “I raise these questions after reading my colleague Nicholas Wade’s fascinating new book, “The Faith Instinct: How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures,” in which he argues that people have a genetically based urge to worship, engraved by natural selection in the mind’s neural circuits because of the tremendous advantage religion conferred on early societies. (You can read a summary of the argument in his Week in Review article.)”

I don’t see how something can be genetic if there were learned precursors. That would make it nurture as opposed to nature.

Tom:  I was reading “The God Delusion” again ( I love that book) and Dawkins refers to the US as legally secular, but not religiously.  Pat Condell has a video about it called “The United States of Jesus”.  As you mentioned the Bible Belt…holy cow!  There are so many Jesus freaks there alone that you cannot shake a stick at it.  They always seem to be the same type, too.  “God Bless our Troops” (and fuck the Islamic Iranian Civilians apparently), and a hunting slogan on a bumper sticker on their big trucks. :D Po’ dunk southern stupidity galore.  Other parts are religious as well, they just don’t carry it out as a badge of honour the way most southerners do.  I think there are only a cuple of states that can remotely be concidered “secular”.

Again, main points are lost or better yet, simply avoided.

What’s up with my point that the need or desire to worship a Supreme Being may be within a passed down gene?

A biologist Randy Thornhill, had just co-authored A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion, which argued that rape is (in the vernacular of evolutionary biology) an adaptation, a trait encoded by genes that confers an advantage on anyone who possesses them. Back in the late Pleistocene epoch 100,000 years ago, the 2000 book contended, men who carried rape genes had a reproductive and evolutionary edge over men who did not: they sired children not only with willing mates, but also with unwilling ones, allowing them to leave more offspring (also carrying rape genes) who were similarly more likely to survive and reproduce, unto the next generation. That would be us. And that is why we carry rape genes today. The family trees of prehistoric men lacking rape genes petered out. (Sharon Begley, Newsweek)

Use this as a similar example to my last post of the possibility that humans possess a (worshipping) trait encoded by genes and passed down to the next generation and so on and so on.

So yes Annie, it could be an instinct – to scratch an itch. To blink – to eat grass. That was my point. But, why did you fail to equate it to my point regarding an instinct or natural behavior for possibly worshipping a God. A trait/fear/shock and Awe passed down from the Sun God, Lighting Strikes, Earthquakes etc…and embedded into our systems and circuits?

And Sned, again you are way off base and not even close. Annie at least mentioned the word instinct as an answer. But, she stopped there. I know instincts. My instincts predicted your response of avoiding any main points.
“He will again steer away from the original thoughts in my posts – the easy way out.”
I do not care how many American Catholics are going to church.  Why do you? What did that have to do with my point above? So, the sheep are grazing in the other pastures nowadays – like in the Mega Christian Churches that are springing up all over the United States. Maybe that grass is tastier these days. These Mega churches are more uplifting, emotional and inspiring then the old RC traditional services.
But, what do you have to add to the passed gene theory? I could easily forget the fact that you are not a fan of the Catholic Church like you ask. However, you can not. Your last post smelled so much of it that it was not even funny. You fight and suppress your need to worship a Being by trying so hard to disprove One. You also satisfy that natural urge of conquest. Could you imagine actually giving a Catholic human a break or a benefit of the doubt that their desire for a God is as naturally common as you rubbing your balls in your sleep? Does your wife think that you are an ignorant fool to do so, unwillingly? I think not.

My instincts tell me that you are going to respond to my above points by asking me why Catholics going less to church equates to less anti-gays in the USA. Just like my dog, eating that grass over and over again. Grass hurts her stomach, eats grass to soothe her stomach, eaten grass hurts her stomach. So, you keep eating those grasses in the forms of books, forums, discussions, conversations, documentaries, internet research etc…and you will remain in perpetual discomfort.

G’day Reit.  Actually the dead live on.  Only in your memory.  If they don’t then they never amounted to much alive.  12 years and both my son and I still consider, before any decision.“What would Eil’ say or do?”  Believe me we always make a decision based on that.  She was never wrong in life, well just the once, when she said yes she’d marry me.

Re the Islam bit Oh no arguments except the Burkah, and covering up is not actually called for in the Koran, nor is it universal.  In the largest Islamic country, Indonesia, it is a rarity, especially in the cities, likewise in Turkey.  Have you ever read “Not without my makeup.?”  by a Muslim Australian.
I’m more than willing to e mail it to you. As with all good humour, and this is ironical and satirical,it contains a lot of truth.

The more primitive the people and the lower the education standards, regardless of the religion, there you will find adherence to primitive beliefs and distortions of the ideology. You only have to look at the “Bible Belt.” in the American context for confirmation.  I’ll have to look up this Phelps, never heard of him, there are so many “Kooks” and not all of them American or Christian.

Have to correct you on “Secular” America.  Officially it is secular but in actual fact, and only by practice, it can be considered Christian.
Unlike Britain which is largely secular but is “Officially.” Church of England.  with the Monarch as the head of that Country, and the Church. Many European countries are largely atheistic but the Churches are actually paid from taxes to enable them to exist.  Holland is one, and you have to make a declaration to exempt you from paying this impost. I believe Germany is another.
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Thank you for the condolences and the nice “welcome back”.  I truly appreciate it.  I went through hell with a lot of xians who are quite sure they will see my dad again. It exacerbates the pain for me.  I see him everywhere and in everything, but I believe him to be gone.  Hearing otherwise over and over has caused a strange depression-like state in my mind.  So, thank you again.

I think it was the part about xians being the fall guy for Islam.  If I am wrong ..correct me by all means.  I just read it again and I am thinking that I meant that you were blaming xianity for what Islam is doing.  I don’t blame xianity for that.  And the USA is not a secular society.  They are very strongly xian.  That certainly explains their violent streak. :D No, I think Islam is to blame for their strong minded views of ...just primitive crazy shit!  I mean…they are so backwards!  At least xianity has evolved.  I know that’s hipocritical of them, but I would rather see that, then a society that still makes women cover their faces.  It irritates the bjesus out of me.  To me, Islam is worse than xianity.  I am sure I wouldn’t have said that 500 years ago..but today I believe Islam is the bigger threat.  Fred Phelps notwithstanding.

Btw, I just saw a documentary on him called “Fall From Grace”.  He’s an insane man.  His daughter and son whom he used to beat savagely, left the church there, and did an “over the phone” interview.  His daughter said he was a rage-aholic, a sick man.  I think he should be locked up.  And he has a warrior son who should be thrown into the pits of his own idea of hell.  OMG!  If you want to be irritated for about 90 minutes, watch this documentary.

Reit I think you would have to go back no further than
just prior to your sad loss. Jan 12/13.  But it is of no consequence.

Your loss led to our loss so welcome back.

Hi my peeps! :D I am back. Uh oh here comes trouble and all.

Wow, Mike, that was some long, drawn out, and might I add gaphic intent to insult a person.  LOLOLOL Too funny.  But the answer to your other questions is “instinct”.  Who told you to scratch your first itch?  No one.  What creepy parent teaches a kid to masturbate?  I am sure there are a few..but let’s go with “no one”.  Instinct is the answer to your dogs grass eating issue.  Sned doesn’t equate.  Sorry.  You humping his leg all the time does strike a close resemblence thought. :D Kidding.  Sorta.

Now, Tom…I have walked through “the flames of hell
“...so at least I know it’s here on earth and we create it.  But I owe you an answer to something.  Do you rmember what it was ?  I hope so..if not I will go back an check.

MIke…
For a few moments forget that I’m not a fan of the RCC and answer these
questions.

Why do only 22% of American RCs got to mass each Sunday?
Why has Europe turned it’s back on religion?
Why are the young Americans less anti gay and more liberal and more live and
let live than their parents?

If I have a disease…I am tickled pink that it is spreading. And the last thing I’m
suffering from is Hyperfairytalism. If you chose to not read the books I
recommend (mostly written by Catholics) that is your choice.) Ignorance is
bliss.

But it seem that the desire to be self ignorized is on the wane.

Sned will probably be able to defend himself, and has possibly been called many things.  But a “Believer.”
That is close to blasphemy.

Have you ever noticed a behavior passed down from a father to a son? Have you ever known a son or grandson who has picked up a trait, a behavior, a laugh, a blush, an emotion, a walk, a slur or a twitch from a deceased member that they never met before? Why is it so acceptable to believe of an inheritance from immediate or far distant genes of all sorts but not a gene pertaining to the need for worshipping a Supreme Being? 

My new dog has a bad stomach. Any different food will irritate her stomach lining and she will then have stomach problems, discomfort and bloody stool. This is a fact and we keep her diet regular. But, on occasion, she will get to some other food or snacks and her stomach will growl and we will have an uncontrolled mess in the house. During these times, she begs to go out and she heads right for the grass to eat. Why and how do dogs instinctively eat grass to relieve their stomach discomforts?

Sned, will dismiss it as: They ate it once, they learned that it felt good in the stomach, they continued the next time over…what’s the big deal.

Why does Sned tell me to read this book or that book etc… etc..?

Sned is like the billions of believers who unknowingly do things for reasons that they do not know why? A believer will pray and talk to an unknown, never heard or seen Being because it brings them some type comfort or satisfaction.  At the same time, Sned hears, sees and communicates things for the sole purpose of self-inner pleasures and he can not understand this connection.

Because my dog and grass / human worshipping a Supreme Being comparison is defending “the catholic/theist” human way thinking, Sned will go on the attack and hit me with some other crazy notion against me that will be so far from who I am. He will again steer away from the original thoughts in my posts – the easy way out.

Sned, you are rather like my dog. The grass may or not be relieving her stomach but one thing is for sure. The grass does not digest well and it binds her up. The other night, we woke to some farting and other noises.  Turning on the light, sloppy shitty grass was stuck and protruding from our dog rectum. Wanting to go back to sleep quickly, we quickly lifted, turned her and then slowly pulled three long, long stems of grass from her ass. She’ll still eat grass when her stomach sours. And, believers will still worship their gods with no prove or reason. And, Sned will continue fighting, researching and trying to hurt and prove others wrong…

…behavior bringing comfort to their inner selves. Passed down in genes and tweaked with present learning. Yes, what a mess, it sometimes brings.

I must agree with you Tom Edgar concerning the “all praise no blame” the gods get from humans. Rather like heads he wins, tails we lose. A nice system when your acolytes are on your side. When I first noticed that is was a revelation. It doesn’t
work pointing it out though any more than logic with the irrational and mystical thinkers which are in the billions. That is why i find it pointless and deleterious to antagonize them. And the fact that they have the right to think the way they want as long as it isn’t made into secular law that is.

It’s not dead..yet…we are waiting.
Invariably an atheist hunter comes by and we circle the wagons.

Or maybe Haiti caused more than a few to take pause and contemplate.

There’s an old saying
“It is easy to turn a blind eye to the suffering of people you don’t know.”

But this one came a little too close to home (USA)

I was wondering if the gremlins had attacked once again as I had received no notices but retracing I find that no one has posted.  Has this thread, at last, reached the end of the spool?

I watched, fascinated , at the rescue of a person, after interminable days, buried, in Haiti.  “Praise the Lord.”  Oh! Yeah. Damn the the devil for the 1/200,000 dead ones. All the acclaim and none of the blame.  Always did think that deities were actually Politicians.

I know that is deeply personal for you Tom Edgar but thank you for relating it to us. I am happy you had 46 years for some of us have less or none of our own.

As for that site it is set up to make even the most knowledgeable fail. Brief answers? One question used the word “belief” in relation to science. Now that is just plain wrong! That’s like using the word “evidence” and “scientific method” in relation to their religion. Also notice the use of animal hind ends as a less than subtle tip off to what they think of anyone’s answer that doesn’t agree with theirs? The only thing missing were human hind ends sans clothes of course but that would violate their supposed morality.

Everything back to normal, including the spammers.

I guess there are idiots everywhere who respond to these “Con” men.  One guy in a Southern State here was taken for eighty thousand dollars a little while back.  Nothing unusual?  Yep! He was the head of the State Police Fraud Squad.  Friend of mine, a newspaper owner thought he’d have a bit of fun, and responded to a Ghanian site offering ever living love from a beautiful girl.  He kept it going for a few weeks eventually publishing it all including the photos sent which were of a very well known(in Africa) Beauty Queen/Model, who had no idea her image was being used.

Is this apropos of religion/atheism?  Sure is.  It is easy to fool most of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time, etc.,

My Quaker wife, in hospital, dying. Family and “Friends” in a near 24 hr vigil.  That capital F is correct.  Society of Friends.  I can’t recall a single prayer.  Neither the Quakers nor the atheists way.  Mostly it was poetry, being said and read, Eileen was on support until I was told there was no hope.
“Pull the plug at four o’clock, we’ll make our farewells, let her know what is happening and let her know she was loved to the end.” Her funeral was the same.  The eulogies were heartfelt speeches from all who knew and loved her.  Not once was a God mentioned, not even by the many Catholics who were there. What they thought is their affair but none sullied their born R C, turned Quaker’s memory.

O K sorry to get maudlin and personal. Just turned 12 years after 46 together. She is partly to blame for me not being as belligerent an atheist as of yore. Still as adamant, but I’m more accommodating of those who are as accommodating. Live, Love and let live and love.

Tom….

No problem with the internet…maybe the Chinese did it by accident.

RE: Haiti…how true. God ALWAYS wins. Listened to some preachers out of Miami saying that “God is always with us. Now Haiti will be rebuilt with his help”

Might as well have said “screw the dead dying and injured…they died so we could have better stuff.”

I truly believe that the great majority of people have no desire to think deeply. They just want to be entertained or to hate.. (seems there’s a relationship) “Make me happy or at least give me a group against which I can take out my frustrations so I can feel better about my own sorry state.” Aye?

Has anybody else experienced a loss of communications.

I had to come here via Googling Truth Dig, etc., Received private mail but all daily regulars emanating from the U S A Nada.  viz: Common Dreams, Atheists site, all stopped on Sunday,(our Sunday),  can’t all be in Church.

Amazing. I see Haitians blaming the devil for sending an earthquake, and praising The Lord for saving the ones who didn’t suffer.  The more things change the more they stay the same.  Must be something in it.  The R C Cathedral and its leader went,  and the Fundies church and leader are A O. K.  Now the Voodoos want the Kudo’s.  Maybe it is just Natural Selection.  Sorry about that, just couldn’t resist.
I’ve seen the same reaction here when we were burnt out in a bush fire six years ago.

Seth.  Why bother?  It is obviously intended for the, lacking in intelligence, born again fundamentalists.

They ask for, but can’t even spell, responses.(responces)

For any half way intelligent and educated atheist it would be an exercise in frustration. trying to debate with a brick wall.

Tow Limeys visiting America both agreed after travelling to a dozen States, from Texas to Tennessee, and California to Ohio. Not one was America.  On entering the New England States.  AH! Now THAT’S America.

Its also not bad in the New England New York area. Vermont,New Hampshire and CT are among the least religious states in the country.

Being an atheist in Australia is no big deal too many of us.  Having in the family a Fundamentalist, Christian or Muslim now that would be undesirable.  Mind you I am very friendly with a family of S D A’s whose father is actually an Elder.  Nice people, just peculiar beliefs.

Problem with Islam? No reformation.

Problem with the new conservative right winged Protestant Christians?

No chance for a reformation.

Ultimate result? Whatever it is, it won’t be good.

Best hope? Young people.

Latest news….if you’re under 50 interracial marriage is not an issue.

If you’re over 50 it is.

But no matter what your age (According to the poll) the last type of person wanted in a family….is an atheist! (Reported this morning on NPR…(National public Radio)

I don’t expect a quick response, and under the circumstances I can only offer that I have sympathy with your situation.  Having lost too many myself.

I do draw attention to the “Priest” being EX.  Just a tiny bit ahead of the ecumenical boot.

Hitler, Germany and Christianity.  Yep! remember it well.  I also remember very clearly where I was when Britain declared war.  In a “HIGH” Church of England.
Solemnly pronouncing the news from the pulpit the “Priest” then invoked God and all the angels to do unto others what the Germans intended doing to us.
Whilst the Germans were doing the same damned thing.
Poor old God/Allah sure must get Odin’s Zeuss, or Shiva’s priorities tangled at times. Oh sorry I forgot. Thor is the war God. Or are they all?

It was the beginnings of a lifetime of atheism, mind you it had already started, one of the advantages of going to a “Church” school.

I get your point but I don’t want to get into the “no atheists in foxholes” argument with you.

C’ya in a few.

Yes perhaps they can graduate to cruise missiles and fuel-air bombs of their Christian adversaries. Though it is far less personal in its delivery but oh so more devastating to families and pregnant women and old people and toddlers…etc. And with every one more jihadis are born to take the fight to the Goliath all these Davids go to fight. But unlike in the Bible most of them die and the giant strides on to more conquests.

Oh great!  Now I remind you of a Catholic Priest?  Please!  Don’t put that curse on me. :D
I don’t think that any of the three Abrahamic faiths are any good, nor do I condone one more than the other.  However, Jews (who you so nicely pointed out a while back stole from the Palestinians and I concur) are not good religions at all.  However, xianity is more contained.  Maybe you’re right; maybe under the guise of being contained in more democratic societies by and large, they are really blood thirsty as always.  I don’t know.  What I do see is that Islam is more primitive.  And the extremists want to rule the world and convert everyone to Islam.  The xian extremists that I see (Fred Phelps) just want to hen peck people to death…or at least that is all they are acting upon.  Somehow xianity is more contained than Islam right now…and Judaism.  However the latter is small in the greater tapestry of things.  Still important!  But smaller on a global scale. Islam is growing and earning converts all the time.  And if they remain primitive, head-slinging assholes, they are going to cause a great deal of suffering unless they are stopped.  But I don’t see that happening either. 
As far as what you don’t comprehend, I have to look into that later and see what context I meant it in.  Sorry, but my father just passed away, and it’s shocked me because I had just talked to him for seven hours at the holidays and he claimed good health.  So, I will get back to you…promise!  I am a bit of a blur right now.

Mea Culpa.

Yes my memory failed me. You have recalled correctly.
Sorry It is a lifeong failing, remembering names.

I was married but a few weeks, and in a dream met two gorgeous blondes, took them home to meet my wife, and so help me, in a dream, I couldn’t remember her name.
Made the cardinal error of telling her.  “She was not amused.” I always had a warped sense of humour.

O K twice I have asked and you now request a specific.
Your statement of “Being the Fall Guy In Islam.” This I can’t comprehend.

You do remind me of a very prominent Catholic Priest here down under, yes I really am here,he left the Church just ahead of being ex communicated. Atheist interviewer on a daily national radio programme asked “Why don’t you come all the way and join the enlightened.” he answered.  “You can take the boy out of the Church but not the Church out of the Boy.”
So pardon me if I detect remnants of Christian versus Muslim. There are many Muslims as there are Christians who do not agree with, nor do they practice, the tenets of their faith strictly to the letter.  Unfortunately Islam is imbued in the youth in a very medieval way consequently many of the adherents have not progressed beyond the middle ages with a mentality that goes with it.  Indonesia, by contrast, has a much more enlightened approach.  In that country there are pockets of medieval thinking but in the main they are not as religiously backward as many R C countries of South America.

Is your memory failing you?  Or is mine failing me?  I do recall SNED refering to me as Veronica and then
you writing to me and referring to me as “Reit1 or Veronica-whichever”.  I know a thing like that will stick in a man’s mind…subconsciously or otherwise.

Where have I failed you?  Because I don’t acknowledge every single one of your statements?  C’mon.  I can’t do that.  I hit the highlights, or what interests me.  It’s all just your musings as is mine! Nothing more.  But if you want to know something then ask me specifically. I will answer.  No problem.

You think I cover for the Western World and I think you’re sympathising with Muslims (and yes I do know some).  I know a couple quite well.  They are all for Jihad!  It’s part of tenet laws, Tom. 

I do see war as different.  Because it is.  It’s just as obscene, that’s true.  But to do something because you’re a brainwashed kid who has been trained to kill by your superior officer is one thing.  To kill because your imaginary dad told you to, is quite different as far as the reasoning behind it.  Ideologies can be as bad as theologies as we see with Pol Pot, Stalin, and the PEOPLE OF ABU GRAHIB!  Apparently you aren’t paying attention to the fact that not one of them said that they did what they did in the name of ALLAH OR GOD!!!  Got that?  Because you seem a little slow there.  :D Sorry taking a bit of crack at you. 

There is a difference.  Sure, I think if George Bush hadn’t said “god told me to do this”...things would have been very different because yes, you’re right.  The people behind the situation can often use religion as a sounding board to incense others into committing atrocities.  Hitler is a great example of that.

Now, what is it that you would like to know from me?

I do find it amazing how you will pointedly make a statement and when it is refuted you then twist it or ignore it.

Quite specifically I said the evidence of the LIKELIHOOD of the military and especially the ones in Abu Graib of being professed Christians was overwhelming.  There is nothing hypocritical about that.

You very pointedly ignored all I wrote regarding that I see the actions are by NATIONS. the religion being incidental also the very specific one regarding the theft of a nation with the deportation
of all the inhabitants.
Being the fall guy in Islam is another thing you failed to explain. I’m still trying to work it out.

Being cocksure of your country?  I’ve never said, specifically you were any nationality. Although the spirited defence and justification for America’s troop behaviour in foreign countries seemed to indicate some sort of alliance. Being a woman? I had no way of knowing, as you don’t use a gender identifying name. Now I know, it still doesn’t send me into paroxysms of emotionalism.

You and I agree on the beheading by Extremist Muslims
Where we seem to diverge is that I see bombing and machine gunning of equally innocent people as being no different, except in the quantity of the people affected.  I do wonder if you actually KNOW any Muslims.  I had one who was an Imam, a gentler kindlier man you would never meet. As were those I befriended in Iran, Pakistan, India and Indonesia.

I didn’t accuse YOU of hypocrisy but it wouldn’t be stretching a point when you condemn attributing blanket coverage of “Christian.” soldiers behaviour, which does have some credibility on probability alone, but you have absolutely no qualms about blanket coverage to a billion Muslims for the actions and words of a few thousand.

I repeat I have absolutely no time for Islam but it also extends to all the other superstitious beliefs.
I’m hanged if I am going to hate all Americans for the actions of a few either.  I don’t even hate Germans, and their military,although they injured my sister and mother when they bombed us. I even have a friend here who was an unter leutenant in WW2.

Hey Tom!  Calm down.  Just because I am a woman doesn’t mean that you have to get emotional.  

What makes you so cock-sure of what country I come from, or I live in? :D You’re presumptious!  Anyway, maybe your stats on the US are right and maybe they’re not.  One thing is for sure, though.  The people who committed crimes in Abu-Grahib did not come out and say “The Bible says to do these things.  Jesus is God!  Accept him or you will get the same!”  So, you don’t really KNOW that they were xian at all.  Hipocrit yourself.

As I stated, I do agree with you that if it were an all atheist world…or even if the Abrahamic faiths were all three done away with, people like those in Vietnam and Abu-Grahib who are just cruel for the sake of desensitization, or cruelty…whichever, will still exist.  But what a small group in comparison to the many Islamic people who have such absurd sayings as “Behead those who say Islam is violent”.  It’s laughable.  I have never known or heard of a peaceful Muslim.  Cat Stevens is about as close as I can think, and he was very quick to call for the head of Salman Rushdie after The Satanic Verses” came out.  He recanted, but that’s the problem with words.  You can’t take them back.  As for xians, they don’t say such nonsensical things as that anymore when you exclude the small time weird groups like Fred Phelps, et al.  But they are a very tiny portion when you consider the size of Islam.  AND they are not violent…just weird.  Islam promotes violence as part of Jihad…a tenet law.  Big difference.

Reit let me correct you.  The U S A is NOT a Christian country it is by its own definition SECULAR.

The vast majority of the citizens profess Christianity.
The Proportion is even higher in the Armed Services.
Ipso Facto the odds that the combatants are professed Christians and those in Abu Graib also is only logical.

Your figures on American Church attendance are also way off, from recollection, the majority of Americans do attend Church, and a substantial amount of those regularly.  This contrasts with my own country where the regular attendance is 25% or less and at the last census 30% claiming no religious affiliation at all.

Sometimes your sentence structure, and convoluted grammar leave me perplexed,thereby making it difficult to interpret the exact meaning you are attempting to convey.  I question “Christians being the fall guy in ISLAM???” This doesn’t make sense. How does one religion become a fall guy in another?

As for being an apologist for Islam or for that matter blaming Christianity for the current state of affairs in the East nothing could be further from the truth. My disdain for the beliefs of those, or any other religion, are absolute. That there is an underlying current of xenophobia and religious bigotry as a motivating force in many of the “West’s” actions is undeniable. But the actions to which I object are those from the NATIONS participating, the religious affiliations are incidental, but to the recipients of the military actions they see only from their 100% Islamic perspective and, rightly or not, it seems to them that they are being persecuted primarily for religious reasons.  This is compounded by statements from G W B referring to “Crusades” and “Armageddon.” and Biblical reference to Israel when he spoke of military actions. This is reinforced by the many film clips of soldiers, heads bowed, al la Football Players with Padres praying before actions.  Very reminiscent of the Pope’s benediction on the Italian Soldiers incursions into Abyssinia in the mid thirties.

I do see that America and its, very often bribed, allies go thousands of miles to interfere in other nation’s affairs on one pretext or another.  This is not only in Islamic nations but in other places such as the theft of a whole island State,  with the eviction of the non Islamic inhabitants, without compensation, who were then dumped in a Muslim country whilst their homeland was turned into a U S military base, with the connivance of the British, who were supposed to have been their “Protectors”...

You Reit go into a defensive stance when your own country’s misdemeanours are elaborated, unlike myself who will not defend my own country’s lickspittle cooperation in any American escapade for purely selfish reasons. I neither condemn nor condone Afghans, nor Iraqis, for defending their own country.  Neither have ever attacked yours.  Those that have, are still beneficiaries of your munificence. One word.  Hypocrisy.

I agree, Tom.  Most of what you said seems just about right to me. 

But I think it’s much more likely that you are rooting for xians to be the fall guy for what is happening in Islam.  Rather than me being an apologist for xianity- which is of course, absurd; you seem to be focused in on the western world as if they are all xians beheading people in vietnam and abu-grahib.  But the truth is, the USA is only a xian COUNTRY…that doesn’t mean all the people there are xian.  In fact, most claim xianity but out of those who claim it, most do not even attend a church.  Sorry, but you’re going to have to point your Islamic apologetic finger in another direction. 

Being a religion in name only doesn’t really mean much if you don’t practice it’s tenetes. Islam practices it’s tenet laws to kill.  As for Abu-grahib, where, sir, did you get the idea or information that all of those soldiers were xian???

Reit really is an apologist for Christians.

That Christians will not sink to beheading? 

Your memory evidently doesn’t go back to Vietnam and Cambodia. Atrocities, by Americans,  of this sort were commonplace.
What were ears on radio aerials.? Trophies. Not just the isolated occurrence either.

Abu Graib.  Oh forgot that one already.  Gang Raping of your own by Blackwater Mercenaries. (Ex military).

Bombing of weddings in Afghanistan blowing hundreds to pieces. Oh don’t go there it is not like a beheading. Our killings are all merciful and theirs are not. They deserve to die as they are not white and Christian.

Without Islam without Christianity? Without Religion is one way to remove the basic and underlying cause of so many conflicts.

If we removed all religions we might just reduce conflict but I am hanged if I could imagine it would eliminate it. If we were all Christians we’d still fight amongst the hundreds of sects or Protestants and Catholics.
If we were all Muslims then there would be the Shiites and Sunni not forgetting the other minor sects. All Jew…Heck Orthodox versus Progressive v Haredi v Ashkenazim.

Well there aren’t any divisions in atheism but I still think an excuse to fight somebody would be found.

Reit You say you can go about it by showing a better way.  That is precisely the philosophy of the Quakers. “By your actions be ye known.” But when America as a whole becomes the place that is showing a better way then you won’t need better weapons to prove it.  As a country it is left behind in practically every area affecting its own citizens, Education, Justice, Health, Social Welfare,
Environment .  There are countries that have more corruption but none with corruption on such a massive scale. A country which could, and should, be
the shining example of all that is good has now sunk to the abysmal depths of the colonialism epitomised by, and now lost to the U S A , by the British and other European nations.

Well, Night-Gaunt, we were talking about a certain Muslim here, but I won’t refute all that you just stated entirely.  But I don’t agree that Christianity is THE manipulator.  Christianity has at least (at very least, true) evolved.  Islam has not.  If Muslims are motivated by xian manipulations, well, that’s their primitive fault, isn’t it?

Still, I agree that Islam, Christianity (however evolved) and Judaism all need to take a hike for there to be any peace.  But right now, Islam is the problem because they ARE extreme.  If they can’t handle their perceived manipulators better than they are doing, again, that’s their fault…and they’re making a hash of everything.  Christianity will not likely devolve into beheading people or impaling them again.  And they certainly won’t make an Al-MagicJesus site for all to watch their horrific deeds.

“One thing is for sure, as long as Islam exists, there will never be peace anywhere.  But as you say in such a defeated way…when has it ever?”-Reit1

Right now I would say it was the fact that Christianity exists and there will never be peace anywhere would have a higher validity. Since the extremists are motivated by Christian manipulations, and murders in their countries. But you can inform me where Islamists have invaded and occupied any Christian countries at this time. Each use of war by the USA contributes if not creates the very enemies they say they are against. A curious circularity isn’t it?

I didn’t say you were a scammer, Tom, nor did I compare you to one.  It was a simple analogy; not a comparison.  You fall for the classic blunder of giving a damn what I say. :D Still the fact remains that you just may be a scammer under cover.  But more likely just a person with something to hide.  Just give it up, Tom.  Your conceit is beneath me.  When you’re not fighting to win some battle of the wits to prove yourself, you’re actually quite interesting…with or without a facade.  It’s not important to me.
What is important are the things you stated regarding the moderate Muslims and Christians.  I do believe that is the point Sam Harris attempts to make when he states that moderation is not a good idea.  Sure, we can’t go about like little Hitlers and kill every moderate, but we can teach them a better way by showing them.  You’re right about the mad camp armies, though.  It has certainly not been the right way as of yet; and I cannot see that changing.  The way I see it, the only way out is through continuous education…the evolving sort.  The kind that Einstein promoted.  The kind that never stops asking questions.  When you believe you have all the answers, you are dangerous, and also a little more than just slightly deluded.!  History does tend to repeat itself. 

One thing is for sure, as long as Islam exists, there will never be peace anywhere.  But as you say in such a defeated way…when has it ever?

Reit.

You did the classic Political ploy of extrapolating.
By not investigating irrefutable evidence to my identity.
You ignored the “No right to make remarks.”

I hardly think your analogy of the “Scammers” is in any way relevant to this site.  Apart from the fact I gave three areas for irrefutable verification one even being a “Government” site. You have every right to be a skeptic.  I am a long time member of The Australian Skeptics so skepticism is not new to me.  I like to keep an open mind, not so open as to let my brains fall out,  at the same time I don’t want to be blinkered so that I cannot see another point of view even if it is in area for which I hold no respect.  I can respect the Believer even if I despise the beliefs as long as they are genuinely held. This is why I KNOW that the majority of Muslims/Christians/Hindus are basically decent people
as are atheists.  No category of people are immune from the extremist actions of others who are of the same ideology albeit with different interpretations.

Lumping all Muslims together with the extremists only succeeds in forcing the moderates into the immoderate camp. Afghanistan is a supreme example.
The terrorist forces led by Americans, overwhelmingly Christians, by their everyday actions
slowly but surely succeeding in the outcome they seek to avoid.  Amalgamation of all the tribes, along with the Taliban, into a cohesive resistance which, once again, will see the invaders eviction, but unfortunately, as in Iraq, leaving a country unified under “Extremist” Islamic control.

The largest Islamic community is Indonesia. It too has a lunatic fringe but the majority are very moderate.  Indonesia has not been invaded by the “West.”  So far, they have been able to curb their more violent citizens.  This is not to say the situation is ideal but then where is it so?

“If you don’t investigate irrefutable evidence”

With equal respect in return, I will remind you that the internet does not provide “irrefutable evidence” thus, I have every right to question and doubt.  There are plenty of frauds on the net. If it were not so, people wouldn’t be getting ripped off daily by the many people who claim to live in Belize or some other place where they hide their server..when all the while they live in the states or some other place by which to play “nice”.

Reit.  If you don’t investigate irrefutable evidence presented regarding my identity then I respectfully suggest you have no right to make remarks regarding it.If a theist quoted Koranic or Biblical “Proofs.” I presume, before responding, you would do as I.  Check.  Without ammunition the firearm is nearly useless.

As for Frank, the one with whom I communicate has another side to the one he presented on this site.
A one eyed pursuit of an ideology ad nauseum isn’t the sole prerogative of Frank nor is it Frank’s only interest. It could be easily said of some of us that we have a narrow vision with regard to “Believers”. Initially my private conversations did have a tendency to repetitive attempts to impress the absolutism of his theories but we have progressed beyond that to many other areas.

I too find it annoying that when asked a question religionists obfuscate, avoid or ignore.  I then know I have won on points if not on a fall. Mange Jan 2 is a case in point.  Very much like a political answer where a more than lengthy dissertation addresses everything but the question.  Eventually a snippet is inserted that vaguely attempts to address the initial query but still gives no answer. In short an exercise in rhetoric designed to bamboozle.

Well, Tom if I am wrong about you, then there’s nothing to be so fretful about.  If I am right…then that would explain a lot.  I realise it could be either/or.  It’s just strange to me how you would defend such a strange character.  I find SNED’s indepth outline to be spot on and quite accurate. 

As far as your address, or daughter; or for that matter Frank’s son, I really don’t look into people’s lives on the net that deeply.  Frankly speaking (no pun) it doesn’t interest me to poke around too much.

Why are we here?  I hope to learn and teach things that are new that we’ve found..meet new people with different ideas, etc.  But when one keeps drowning out all possibility of that with the same rhetoric, it removes all chances of that.  He did, in fact, monopolise the entire board and yet refused to answer questions just as he is now.  It’s not helpful; it is annoying, and if you can’t see that I really don’t know what to tell you.

Tom..I think you addressed some of your note to the wrong person.

I didn’t make up the definition..took it right off the web and it was such a good fit I didn’t research it further. Yes the kid thing is a bit low..but he brought it up…and his problem with women was admitted and you don’t have the benefit of dealing with the man as we have and the frustrations associated with that over many many months.

We had another problem child here for sometime by the name of Glenno..who finally realized that he was wasting his time…and he promised to leave and actually did it…to his credit.FG was worse.

As far as the army service goes I would say it was more of a govt white collar job and not the shoot em up type.
And having some experience with the govt of the USA…I am less than neutral on it efficiencies. Not too long ago I called up and asked if they had any information of bacteria that eats oil. I got a full report on the Exxon Valdez leak. The person I spoke to had a database…saw “oil leak”...clicked on it and sent it on along with many wishes for the success of my new business…to which I said to myself…“What the hell is she talking about about?”(no mention of oil eating bacteria in the 300 page doc)

Then there’s the time I went to the Patent office in DC and took a recommended course in patent searching called “East.” The next day I took a course called “West”..and the instructor started the meeting by stating that taking “East” was a waste of time…which dropped all the jaws of those of us in the classroom who wasted a motel night and a day…learning something that they new was useless. Government is not proof of the existence of God…maybe the devil…and for sure not truth.

Reit.

There is one thing that really does get me going and that is when my integrity is impugned.  In your last letter you did just that.  I will put it down to nothing more than ignorance and lack of good manners.

Even a computer literate child would see my e mail address is of Australian origin.  Once before I indicated that my name would come up if you Googled it
where I have had letters into our local Shire Government (County).  Furthermore you will see my daughter Rosalind’s web site with her art endeavours
to see, and even more recently the unfortunate death of my son Robert, in November, published as an obituary in the Queensland Courier Mail by the leading columnist Kathy Noonan.  I can’t give more
evidence of my domicility nor my identity that has nothing to do with Frank.

As for what you have experienced from Frank and my letters directly to him they are at two different levels. Frank can be a little “Dedicated.” to be polite, in his pursuit of his own religious agenda, so can others.  Away from that he is very interesting, but my own children think I can be a bloody bore when it is in pursuit of my atheistic attitudes. Not that they are in any way religious but like so may other Australians regarding religion they really don’t give a stuff.

From his personal letter to me I don’t see that he is lying, if he is I would stop communication as to me “Truth”, being drummed into me by my father, is sacrosanct.  Then, once again I tend to take things at face value until proved otherwise.

Hitting at Frank through the deviation of his son is really hitting below the belt.  As Khalil Gibrand said. “Parents are the Bow and children the arrow.”
We all try to aim for a better target and too often miss altogether.Sometimes we should admit, maybe wit would be better aiming in a different direction.  My own son in particular, with an extremely high I Q, died from the effects of taking methadone over twenty years.  Neither of his parents Drugged, Drank, nor Smoked. I still loved him as I daresay does Frank of his own son.  Disappointed in the outcome? Yes,  but then I would have been as disappointed if they had joined the Military whilst my own father would have been as proud as Punch. 

I can’t agree on you defining Frank as psychopathic.
Your definition is certainly at variance with my dictionary’s….Denoting a personality outwardly normal, characterised by a diminished sense of social responsibility, inability to form deep personal relationship, and sometimes , abnormal or dangerous acts or pertaining to a psychosis or other mental disorder.  Frank’s lifetime of service to the American Military Medical Services seems to me to be a heightened sense of Social awareness, albeit I do not agree with the Military, especially the American.
That he married and had children does seem to indicate an ability to form some deep personal relationship.  The abnormal dangerous acts .  I have no knowledge. Mental disorder.?? Obsession with a
Philosophical Ideology.,  well I guess both you and I could be candidates, or why would we be doing this?

Tom…I have a great deal of respect for you, but the person under question who posted here for two years, in my opinion, is a psychopath

“A person with a personality disorder indicated by a pattern of lying, exploitiveness, heedlessness, arrogance, sexual promiscuity, low self-control, and lack of empathy and remorse. ”

I don’t know about promiscuity at his age but he fills all the other symptoms in my opinion..and it’s all here if one wanted to go back that far. No one agreed with him but he stayed here anyway. Why? And he made the same points over and over again. Why? He commanded most of the space when he was at it here going full bore… with his theory that not even the brightest here agreed with. Why? When he wasn’t spouting off his theory he’d ask dead end questions Why? When he got angry at us he berated everyone here as being intellectually challenged. Why?When he promised to leave we all knew he’d be back. And he came back? Why? He paid far too much attention to Annie?Why? He claimed at one time that he had problems with women? Odd thing to admit unless he just hadn’t found the right one yet(see above) And his son became a born again obviously rubbing Dad’s expertise in everything right back in his face. All of the above is my opinion and only mine based on his posts here. And I truly believe he’s back. Under one or more names. I have no desire to go back and prove the above but I have no reason to make it up. He’s like a bad sore…I made every effort to have him removed here and it eventually worked because even those who command this post took the time to investigate.

There’s no reason for me to believe that he’s not lying to his friend. The posts here will be proof enough.

Who else has trouble posting to this site?  I can’t get the letters to type out.  It’s incredibly annoying.

Please reassure Frank that he didn’t change fuck all. 

I have always thought you were Frank and have never reallyy wavered much in my idea that you are; and if you’re not, you certainly champion his cause.  As his obvious friend or possible alter-ego, you have been very intelligent and fair in your remakrs…even if i don’t agree from time to time—you’re not a bore.

As for Mange…he is Frank.  Pure and ismple…he is.

Now mister white sauce:  You have not sufficiently done anything to cause me to even want to play your stupid games and “read through the lines”.  Please answer my questions to you.  Do you believe in Allah as deity?  If yes, why?  Do you find Mohammed objectionalbel sinc he was just a mere man like Jesus? 

Do tell, or everything will tell…if you know what I am saying.

As most of you are aware Frank Goodman and I are e mail friends with irregular correspondence.

Even I thought that the Magic Pudding/ White Sauce/Mange Blanc et Noir could have been an alter ego of Frank with the similarity in writing. So I contacted the PRESUMED scribe. Frank assures me that it is not he, and thinks he has a case for plagiarism.  I also acquired from him some food for thought and at the risk of offending will include them. Frank remarked that he has been, from time to time, been accused of posting under various names,after being banned from this site.  I would add that even I have been accused of being Frank in disguise in spite of having an antipodean address Frank asks the Blanc Mange etc., if he posts anywhere else as he is interested in his comments.  Do you have a URL or forum?
Now Frank and I have each others addresses so if you wish to send to Frank via myself my address is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

You stated that…. Anything that could not be true is not God.  You also said that… God could not be what is not true,  Could you explain that?  I believe that is the distinction the Philosopher Hume used to distinguish between his “Matter of Fact” and the matter of absolute certainty.  Hume said that a matter of fact is any statement that is fully valid in the negative whilst a matter of certainty is any statement that could not be true, thus a tautology and a negation is not possible I will understand if you do not wish to address this issue, but how does this rise to the identity of God?

Admittedly some of the above are thoughts expressed by Frank.  He and I have a lot in common, not least being a closeness in age, but theistically we are Poles apart, a little understandable in that he is in the Northern and I am in the Southern hemisphere.

Frank did say he had noticed a diminution of the aggressive and profanity loaded contributions, and thought maybe he had helped in this area, I assured him that it was my “Holy” presence that had led others to see the light.  Well that last bit is just my joshing really.

Actually by your definition it wouldn’t be a “theory” but a hypothesis at best. I see it as more of an idea elevated by the believer for the invisible to support the imagined that is without boundary to satisfy the beleaguered who wants answers and a cosmic parent. But I am just a mere human as we all are and leave it at that.

G’day Friend.

You are quite right. your reasons satisfy you, as they do, with variations, many others but certainly do not, as you stated, give proof that would in any way validate me changing my opinion.

Because there are areas where our knowledge is limited, even to minds much greater than my own, and in very many more areas where certain things will never be known, doesn’t mean that they give credence to something else that is equally unknowable.

Just because we cannot prove or disprove doesn’t mean that the evidence isn’t there, it only means we haven’t found it. Now this can be the argument for both pro and con in theology, but I prefer to think that as I have no “Pro” knowledge I will stay atheistic rather than accept a theory without foundation or the slightest driblet of factuality.

Keep in touch.

You’ve got to be kidding me. 

Mister Mange,

I noticed you didn’t mention “Allah” in your disbeliefs.  Is it fair to say that you DO believe in Allah? If so, why? If not, why not?

Do you find the prophet Mohammed objectionable?  I am thinking that you do since he was just a mere man—like Jesus. Still, I would like to see your thoughts on that.

Thank you Frank Goodman for telling us for the umpteeth time that God is truth…

for the umpteenth time…go pick on some believers and convince them.

Mange sounds so much like Frank..off message..game playing…silly request..long post… a claimed believer..dislike of the naughty words. That’s pretty much our man…or very much a clone.

I can however answer Frank/Mange having written a few dialogues between my kinda god and me. He would think we are AH’s, has a great sense of humor…including being self deprecating, has a bunch of equal co-gods..as the one god idea doesn’t make sense…(who wants to be alone?) And the only humans invited into heaven are those who are one with the planet..the so called primitive savages who appreciate, study, preserve and consume what’s around them with prayers of thanks and gratitude for it all…and who will be the only ones to survive a world wide natural disaster…if we haven’t destroyed all their cultures by then by converting them to Jesus and the accumulation of stuff. Oh yea..and the poor. Yay my god.

I too would be interesting in this supposed evidence. But to do so means that if you are a believer your are no longer because now you have no blind faith. For that is the point isn’t it. And yet the natural inclination is to prove it. You find some scientists who want to do just that. Which is fine. It is fun in a way in how some of them stretch both the evidence and the scientific method to do it. But please do so, I look forward to it.

Also I am sorry for your loss. As I understand it all the dead will sleep in the earth until Judgment Day then all will be brought together with the living, resurrected then all given new indestructible bodies then judged as to where they will spend their eternities. I suspect Heaven will be nearly empty and Hell (Shoel) will be jam packed. I just might see you there.