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DIG DIRECTOR

Scott Ritter
Scott Ritter, a former Marine intelligence officer, served as a chief weapons inspector for the United Nations in Iraq from 1991 to 1998. He is author of “Target Iran” (Nation Books, 2006) and the forthcoming “On Dangerous Ground: Following the Path of America’s Failed Arms Control...






 
 

Scott Ritter: Calling Out Idiot America

(Page 2)

Most respondents who have a basic understanding of Iraq will answer that Karbala is a city of significance to Iraq’s Shiite population.  Baghdad is Iraq’s capital, with a mixed Sunni and Shiite population.  If that is your answer, you fail.

Karbala is a holy city for the Shiites.  Its status as such is based on the fact that Hussein, a grandson of the prophet Muhammad and son of Ali, the fourth caliph, was killed outside Karbala in a battle between Hussein’s followers and forces loyal to Yazid, son of Muawiyah, the fifth caliph.  The two sides were fighting over the line of succession when it came to leading the Muslim faithful after the death of Muhammad in the year 632.  Abu Bakr, a close colleague of Muhammad but not a member of Muhammad’s biological family, was elected as the first caliph after the prophet’s death, an act that many Muslims believed broke faith with a necessity for the successor of Muhammad to be from his family.  Abu Bakr’s death brought about a quick succession of caliphs, all of whom met untimely deaths and none of whom were from the family line of Muhammad.

When Ali was elected as the fourth caliph, many Muslims believed that for the first time since the death of Muhammad the caliphate had been restored to one properly authorized in the eyes of God to lead the Muslim faith.  In fact, upon Ali’s accession as caliph, one of his first acts was to seek to restore the Muslim faith to its puritanical origins, which Ali believed had been departed from by the merchant families closely allied with the third caliph, Othman.  Ali’s efforts were bitterly resisted by merchant families in Damascus, which refused to recognize Ali as the caliph.  The head of the Damascus rebels, Muawiyah, fought a bitter conflict with Ali, which weakened the caliphate and paved the way for Ali’s assassination.

Upon Ali’s death,  the caliphate was transferred to his elder son, Hassan, but when this succession was challenged by Muawiyah, Hassan relented, transferring the caliphate to Muawiyah with the caveat that once Muawiyah died, the caliphate would be returned to the lineage of the prophet Muhammad.  When Muawiyah died, the caliphate passed to his son, Yazid.  This succession was challenged by Hussein, Hassan’s brother and Ali’s younger son, who believed that the succession, as dictated by Hassan when he abdicated, should have gone to someone within the direct line of the prophet Muhammad, namely Hussein.  Yazid’s treacherous attack on Hussein and his followers, occurring as it did during prayer time, set the stage for the split in the Muslim faith between the Shiat Ali (Shia, or followers of Ali) and the Ahl-i Sunnah (Sunni, or the people who follow in the custom of the prophet Muhammad).  Both Shiite and Sunni view one another as deviants from the pure form of Islam as taught by Muhammad, and as such functioning as apostates deserving death.

If you answered the quiz on Karbala in the above fashion, you would still be wrong.  The split between Sunni and Shiite goes beyond simple hatred for one another.  Not only did the religion split, but so too did the methodology of governance as well as the interrelationship between religion and politics. 

There was a final chance at achieving unity within the Muslim world.  In the year 750, at the battle of Zab in Egypt, nearly the entire aristocracy formed from the lineage of Muawiyah was annihilated when the Damascus-based caliphate clashed with predominantly Shiite rebels.  Jaffar, a Shiite spiritual leader and the great-grandson of Hussein, was supposed to be elevated to the caliphate, thereby uniting the Muslim world, but was instead murdered by Al-Mansur, who established the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad.  This final treachery created a permanent split between the Shiites and those who became known as Sunnis. 

The Shiite faithful embraced rule by imams, infallible leaders who provide guidance over spiritual and political affairs.  According to the majority of Shiites, there are 12 imams, originating with Ali.  The 12th imam, also named Muhammad, is believed by many Shiites to be the Mahdi, or savior, who went into hiding at God’s command and will return at the end of days to bring salvation to the faithful.  With the passing of the 12th imam, matters of spiritual and political concerns were dealt with by religious scholars, or the ulema.  These scholars are products of religious academies, known as “hawza.”  In Iraq, the city of Najaf is home to the most important hawza, the Hawza Ilmiya.  Each hawza produces religious scholars, or “marjas,” who interpret religion and provide guidance over social matters to those who rally around their particular teachings.

The Najaf Hawza currently has four marjas, or grand ayatollahs, each of whom reigns supreme when it comes to matters of religion or state.  The faithful look to their hawza for guidance in all they do, and the sermons given by the various marjas take on a significance little understood by those who aren’t born and bred into that society.  To speak of creating a unified Iraqi state without factoring in the reality of the hawza and its competing marjas is tantamount to claiming one will seek to fly without factoring in the realities of lift and gravity.

So if you answered the question concerning the city of Karbala with anything remotely resembling an insight into not only the schism that exists between the Sunni and the Shiite but also how the development of the practice of the Shiite faith has led to an absolute insinuation of religious dogma into every aspect of social and political life in a manner that operates independently of any so-called central state authority, you would get a passing grade, enabling you to move on to the next city covered by the pop quiz: Baghdad.

Dig last updated on Mar. 23, 2007


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By Michael Shaw, August 11, 2007 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment

94017 Well Recon I also like Scott Ritter. It took great courage for him to come forth when he did, standing alone at a time when the entire nation was gung-ho over invading Iraq. No one can doubt or question the courage of a US Marine in any circumstance and that would certainly include Scott Ritter.

There’s an interesting film out there where Ritter posts commentary called Hi-Jacking Catastrophe. I don’t know if you’ve seen it before but it’s certainly worth the watch. Especially if you can’t stand George W. Bush.

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By Michael Shaw, August 11, 2007 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

93920

Well Skruff, the fact is this has never happened before. However the vote was very close and there were obvious discrepancies. Calling for a re-vote in such a circumstance is not being out of order since the democrats believed the vote had failed due to a 214-214 count. Thus if the gavel slammed (as it did), the measure would have failed(as it did). End of story! The democrats however were willing to go to a re-vote which of course could mean that it would have been passed rather than failed. The real problem here was that the gavel was slammed before all the votes were tallied. I’d call that an act in human error, especially since the democrats were in a hurry to pass several measures before they took their fall break. Obviously in this instance they were a bit too fast. But to call it an act of fascism is way off line. An act in fascism wouldn’t have offered a re-vote.

Personally, I believe the final vote should not stand as is. But I also think the only rational way out of this is a re-vote since the democrats called it 214-214 and the republicans called it 215-213.

By calling on sweeping Watergate like investigations over what was more than likely a simple blunder is a waste of time and other more important issues are at hand, including homeland security measures. Shall we simply give way to all of the business at hand for petty investigations that will take forever and amount to nothing? Give the republicans their re-vote and lets move along.

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By Recon, August 11, 2007 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Michael Shaw:

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I’ll read it, digest it and discuss it with my friends.  I already e-mailed it to them.  I don’t know why, but I like Ritter. As a former Marine, I like Marines who step outside the stereotype, ala Smedley Butler.

Thanks again.

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By Skruff, August 11, 2007 at 6:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

93788 by Michael Shaw on 8/10 at 4:09 pm

“They could have done the re-vote.”

But that’s not how the “rules” read.  when the gavel hits the podium the board vote is final. You are correct however in your assessment that “The Republicans did it when they were in power” Unfortunately I thought the 2006 vote was for a change… my bad.

Funny, “liberals” who hate the lable “liberal” and blame conservatives for the word’s overuse have now taken the same position (mirror-image) on the use of “neo-con”

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By Michael Shaw, August 10, 2007 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

More pomp over the vote controversy. I call the whole thing stonewalling.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/03/AR2007080300878.html

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By Michael Shaw, August 10, 2007 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

93746 I’ve seen the clip. There’s no urban legend here beyond the one the neocons have created over this. They could have done a re vote but they didn’t. Instead they went off like a bunch of crybabies, stomping and kicking like juveniles. They could have done the re-vote. The democrats were willing to allow that so all your talk of fascism here is ludicrous.

I would in fact say that offering a re-vote was pretty generous of the democrats since when the GOP were in charge, democrats were often locked out of the vote entirely and not even allowed to participate in the discussion.

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By Skruff, August 10, 2007 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

93733 by Michael Shaw on 8/10 at 10:41 am

Guess it’s just one of those things that will remain an “urban legend to all but those who actually saw the vote tally board when the gavel hit the podium.

The Democrats are NOT umpires, and the rules clearly state that the vote at the gavel is the actual vote, not a time for the party of jefferson to walk around the room twisting arms, offering favors, and in general subverting any form of legality left in Washington.

I don’t have to convince any one of what I observed on C-Span, AND in this case the D’s were wrong.

ALSO what kind of half-assed politician gives benefits of citizenship to criminal interlopers?

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By Michael Shaw, August 10, 2007 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

92490 Well Skruff I read the blog you sent which in essence only told half of the story. And as we always know there is always more than one side to any story.

According to CBS news, Hoyer offered a re-vote but the republicans starting yelling foul and walked out of the proceedings. This hardly constitutes a dictatorship on the part of democrats. It looks more like bad behavior from the republicans.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/03/politics/politico/main3130820.shtml

“Details remain fuzzy, but numerous Republicans argued afterward that they had secured a 215-213 win on their motion to bar undocumented immigrants from receiving any federal funds apportioned in the agricultural spending bill for employment or rental assistance. Democrats, however, argued the measure was deadlocked at 214-214 and failed, members and aides on both sides of the aisle said afterward.

One GOP aide saw McNulty gavel the vote to a close after receiving a signal from his leaders – but before reading the official tally. And votes continued to shift even after he closed the roll call - a strange development in itself.

Whatever the final tally, acrimony quickly exploded between lawmakers on either side of the aisle as Democratic leaders tried to plot a solution, while parliamentarians on either side argued over protocol.

Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer, D-Md., eventually offered a motion to reconsider, according to floor staff on either side, ostensibly giving members a chance to recast their votes. But the maneuver sparked a chorus of angry protests from the Republicans, yelling “shame” on Democrats, while they returned fire with angry volleys of their own.”

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By Michael Shaw, August 10, 2007 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

Actually Recon when Ritter was in country he was particularly frustrated by Saddam, the UN and the United States for making, what he thought things too difficult for him to do his job because no one in his view was cooperating with the UN resolution.

This comes from wikipedia:
Prior to the US invasion of Iraq in March, 2003, Ritter repeatedly stated that Iraq possessed no significant weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). Because of the prevailing political climate in the United States at the time, Ritter was widely condemned for this position, which later proved to be largely accurate.

In 1998 on The News hour with Jim Lehrer he did say the following:

“I think the danger right now is that without effective inspections, without effective monitoring, Iraq can in a very short period of time measured in months, reconstitute chemical and biological weapons, long-range ballistic missiles to deliver these weapons, and even certain aspects of their nuclear weaponization program”

We also have to bear in mind that Saddam himself at the time was saying himself he had weapons of mass destruction mostly out of fear of being invaded by Iran.

Ritter said this in his letter of resignation:

“The investigations had come to a standstill, we’re making no effective progress, and in order to make effective progress, we really needed the Security Council to step in a meaningful fashion and seek to enforce its resolutions that we’re not complying with”

He said he was resigning out of frustration that the United Nations Security Council, and the United States as its most significant supporter, was failing to enforce the post-Gulf War resolutions designed to disarm Iraq.”

This however comes from a 2002 interview:
There’s no doubt Iraq hasn’t fully complied with its disarmament obligations as set forth by the Security Council in its resolution. But on the other hand, since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated… We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn’t necessarily constitute a threat… It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn’t amount to much, but which is still prohibited… We can’t give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can’t close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can’t reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war.

We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services. (page 32)

If Iraq were producing [chemical] weapons today, we’d have proof, pure and simple. (page 37)

As of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance. (page 46)[7]

In the Pitt interview, Ritter also remarked on several examples of members of the Bush or Clinton administration making statements he knew to be misleading or false with regard to Iraqi WMD’s

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By Rick, August 9, 2007 at 10:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I don’t believe in a god….have no country and consider mankind’s presence on this earth an abherration ....all that said ...i have to add that considering the educational resources available to the average person living in this country ......you all are a pretty moronic lot…..yep..i live in america!...ha ha…isn’t that a continent?...don’t them mexicans speak mexican….i just love it…one day ...the true heirs to the world will take over…no god…no heaven…no hell….just the roaches…and sanity will once again be the status quo

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By Michael Shaw, August 9, 2007 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

93365

I would argue about our troops being owned by the political class. The political class is owned by lobbies and most of those lobbies come from defense contractors or in other words, a hand full of billionaires.

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By Recon, August 9, 2007 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I guess I’m looking for some ammo in these discussions with my friends.  They are saying Ritter said there were WMDs when he was in country and should have known; then said there were none after he had left the country and was no longer in the loop.  The implication being that, if he knew there were none when he was there, he should have said as much.  My best response to date has been that he must have just been acting like a prosecutor and that’s his job.  They respond, that isn’t good enough considering the gravity of the situation. He should have spilled the beans.

I suppose timing is an issue here.  About when did Ritter say no WMDs and what was his position at the time?  Thanks for your reponse.

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By Michael Shaw, August 9, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

93521
Recon,
The truth is Scott Ritter was one of the first guys to come forward and say there weren’t weapons of mass destruction. As you know he was a UN inspector there during the Clinton Administration back in 1998. He should have known. Frankly even Powell knew. In 2000 he said Iraq couldn’t defend itself against its neighbors let alone pose a threat to the United States. All that changed after 9/11 and doctored intelligence.

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By Recon, August 9, 2007 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’ve been trying to defend Ritter.  But I get cornered by some fellow libs when they say Ritter was saying there were WMDs when he was in-country.  Thus, he was thus part of the problem in the lead up to war.  What’s the truth?

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By EE Roberts, August 9, 2007 at 5:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“speaks volumes about the level of concern (or lack thereof) these “representatives of the people” have toward the men and women who honor us all by serving in the armed forces of the United States of America.”

  Mr. Ritter offers no example of how Americans are honored by the service of members of the armed forces.    Our armed forces are simply tools of the morally retarded politicians who pretend to represent Americans while lining their own pockets and satisfying their twisted lust for power.

  Until we all awake to the fact that the American political class owns the US military and uses it for evil purposes, the politcians will continue to lure young people into their service by promoting the lie that service in the military is service to the country.

  Serving in the military serves nobody but the ruling class of elites and their servants, the politicians.  Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth and the police and military are their attack dogs, just as politicians are the lapdogs of the corporate elites.  There is no honor whatsoever in serving in the US military or in US law enforcement.

  Nationalist militarism is a false religion that is being promoted in American schools and in the news and entertainment media.  Its false premises should be rejected here when they appear in the writings of respected authors such as Mr. Ritter who still subscribes to the basic falsehood that the US military is honorable despite the obvious fact that it is used daily for dishonorable purposes by criminals in political office.

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By Skruff, August 9, 2007 at 5:19 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

93273 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/08 at 8:21 pm
says:

“Duh”

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 8, 2007 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

#92489 by Skruff on 8/06 at 5:35 am: “...Takes the following quote out of its context…... Without mentioning that I was speaking about the subsidy of illegal farm workers to growers paid for by the US citizen. A position supported by those neferious Democrats, posing as Republicans, GW Bush, and J McCain….”

Duh, really Skruff, do you seriously mean to say that you would for those neferious Republicans instead???

Now tell me again why I should pay for blueberries picked by these illegal workers when I do not use them….

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By Michael Shaw, August 8, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

92490 Thanks Skruff!

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By Michael McCarthy, August 7, 2007 at 11:56 pm Link to this comment

scott, israel and jewish power controls DC, media and campus. You know that. Stop grandstanding and insulting the people and become a leader for once. You are a zionist, you know that, we know that. Create a peace movement that is not run by this cabal. Or better still, create a war movement that will rescue this country from the filth that have stolen it. It’s over scott, computer votes. Get real scott and wake up from your zionist dream.

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By Skruff, August 6, 2007 at 6:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

92385 by Michael Shaw on 8/05 at 5:02 pm


Hey Skruff could you provide a link?


http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MDkwOTk1NzhhNTgwMTdkZWViY2MzNmYyMTE1ZjkxYjI=

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By Skruff, August 6, 2007 at 6:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

92445 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/06 at 12:49 am

Takes the following quote out of its context;

#90320 by Skruff on 7/28 at 4:59 am: “...There are folks who believe I (although I hate blueberries) should pay for theirs.  Maybe if they scream loud enough, the Democratic party will make this a platform plank….”

“Poor Skruff, ha ha. This is the standard Republican technique in government knowns as “use the payer” not “users pays”!”

Without mentioning that I was speaking about the subsidy of illegal farm workers to growers paid for by the US citizen. A position supported by those neferious Democrats, posing as Republicans, GW Bush, and J McCain.

Now tell me again why I should pay for blueberries picked by these illegal workers when I do not use them.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 6, 2007 at 1:49 am Link to this comment

#90320 by Skruff on 7/28 at 4:59 am: “...There are folks who believe I (although I hate blueberries) should pay for theirs.  Maybe if they scream loud enough, the Democratic party will make this a platform plank….”

Poor Skruff, ha ha. This is the standard Republican technique in government knowns as “use the payer” not “users pays”!

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By Michael Shaw, August 5, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

92357 Hey Skruff could you provide a link?

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By Skruff, August 5, 2007 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Where is the outrage when Democrats hijack house votes:

Is “facism” only bad when republicans subscribe to it?

Consider the following:

Democrats changed the outcome of a vote after the final tally had been called. The vote would have barred illegal immigrants from receiving food stamps and subsidized housing. Republicans had just enough votes to pass the motion, and won the final vote 215-213.

That should have been the end of it. But not under the Pelosi Congress.

After the gavel fell, Stockton, California Freshman Democrat Jerry McNerney (CA-11) was allowed to change his vote to oppose the motion, and even though the vote was closed,

This isn’t about the issue, it is about the process.  What do we learn?  It is OK for the majority party to steal votes.

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By riceowlex, July 29, 2007 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

DR RON PAUL FOR THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES IN 2008. HERE IS HIS RESUME. ANYONE THAT WANTS TO EARTN THE PRESIDENCY OF THE US SHOULD HAVE THIS WORK HISTORY. ANYONE WITH ANYTHING LESS NEED NOT APPLY:

Freeport’s own Ron Paul for President 2008.

ELIMINATING THE FEDERAL RESERVE THE IRS AND “THE PATRIOT ACT”

Here is a good video on IRS and Federal Reserve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styYIG-fiEc
Congressman Ron Paul is the leading advocate for freedom in our nation’s capital. As a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, Dr. Paul tirelessly works for limited constitutional government, low taxes, free markets, and a return to sound monetary policies. He is known among his congressional colleagues and his constituents for his consistent voting record. Dr. Paul never votes for legislation unless the proposed measure is expressly authorized by the Constitution.In the words of former Treasury Secretary William Simon, Dr. Paul is the “one exception to the Gang of 535” on Capitol Hill.
Ron Paul was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He graduated from Gettysburg College and the Duke University School of Medicine, before proudly serving as a flight surgeon in the U.S. Air Force during the 1960s. He and his wife Carol moved to Texas in 1968, where he began his medical practice in Brazoria County. As a specialist in obstetrics/gynecology, Dr. Paul has delivered more than 4,000 babies. He and Carol, who reside in Lake Jackson, Texas, are the proud parents of five children and have 17 grandchildren.
While serving in Congress during the late 1970s and early 1980s, Dr. Paul’s limited-government ideals were not popular in Washington. In 1976, he was one of only four Republican congressmen to endorse Ronald Reagan for president.
During that time, Congressman Paul served on the House Banking committee, where he was a strong advocate for sound monetary policy and an outspoken critic of the Federal Reserve’s inflationary measures. He was an unwavering advocate of pro-life and pro-family values. Dr. Paul consistently voted to lower or abolish federal taxes, spending and regulation, and used his House seat to actively promote the return of government to its proper constitutional levels. In 1984, he voluntarily relinquished his House seat and returned to his medical practice.
Dr. Paul returned to Congress in 1997 to represent the 14th congressional district of Texas. He presently serves on the House Committee on Financial Services and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. He continues to advocate a dramatic reduction in the size of the federal government and a return to constitutional principles.
Congressman Paul’s consistent voting record prompted one of his congressional colleagues to say, “Ron Paul personifies the Founding Fathers’ ideal of the citizen-statesman. He makes it clear that his principles will never be compromised, and they never are.” Another colleague observed, “There are few people in public life who, through thick and thin, rain or shine, stick to their principles. Ron Paul is one of those few.”
Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record:
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.
He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.
Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress

William Rodriguez Hero of 9/11

Come see William Rodriguez at UH August 11, 2007 8:30 pm! DIRECTIONS:  http://www.9-11hero.com/houston

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By Michael Shaw, July 29, 2007 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

90321
Bravo Skruff! My father was a union organizer for the CIO long before it joined the AFL. No divergence here! I also believe in fiscal responsibility though my own idea of it is a bit more progressive than your own. You sound more like a middle of the road libertarian than a republican to me even though you admit voting traditionally republican. Most libertarians do! I consider myself progressive. I vote my conscience and pray for the day a strong third party will emerge. I’m not a Hillary fan either and prefer Kucinich and “perhaps” even Ron Paul to the other candidates. I see little difference in the two parties since they are both bought and paid for by the same corporate interests. Like you I believe government is here to serve the best interests of “We the People.”

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By Michael Shaw, July 29, 2007 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

Well Skruff I wasn’t asking for a complete rundown but thanks for sharing!

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By Michael Shaw, July 29, 2007 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

September Clues

I’m not sure it any of you have seen this yet or not but I thought it was important that you should. It presents some interesting data that would suggest the 9/11 attacks were an inside job. Conspiracy theory or not, these films are riveting and what they question relevant.


http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/108.html

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By Skruff, July 29, 2007 at 6:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

90491 by Michael Shaw on 7/28 at 4:17 pm

“Well gee Skruff I never considered all of our conversation divergences. Only two or three of them. At least we both can’t stand Bush. That in itself makes us allies of sorts doesn’t it?”

I never said “all” but on the precentage, I’m not sure:

I am a fiscal (NOT SOCIAL) conservative.

If Bush is the worst president we ever endured, Clinton is the second worst, and so close his nose is brown.

If the Dems run Hill the shill, I’ll go back to voting national Republican.

I generally vote Republican at the local level.

I don’t believe in institutional charity or work performed in “volunteer status”.

I believe in small relatively weak central government.

I believe our government’s first obligation is to the citizens of the USA.

I do not believe our government has ANY obligation to police the world.

I also believe the government needs to round up the 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, and return them to whence they came.

do we diverge yet?

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By Michael Shaw, July 28, 2007 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Well gee Skruff I never considered all of our conversation divergences. Only two or three of them. At least we both can’t stand Bush. That in itself makes us allies of sorts doesn’t it?

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By Michael Shaw, July 28, 2007 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

88781 Hey Lewis have you heard Bush is giving the Saudi’s another 20 billion dollar arms deal even though much(more than half) of the insurgencies in Iraq are being initiated by Saudi nationals.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/072807Z.shtml

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By Skruff, July 28, 2007 at 6:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

90293 by Michael Shaw on 7/27 at 10:58 pm

“corporate welfare has always been 1000 fold in cost to the taxpayers as is domestic welfare.”

Here we diverge again.

“Corporate welfare” (any subsidy) and “family aid welfare” are the same animal. 

One of the reasons “personal welfare” came into being was to subsidize supermarket chains and landlords. At the point family aid began, grocery stores ended the depression era practice of extending in store credit. 

At the same juncture, other legislation made it easier for landlords to “check credit” and evict folks who couldn’t pay.

Personal aid welfare was also seen as away to inject large amounts of cash back into a sagging economy, and thereby preventing steep economic fluctuations.

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By Skruff, July 28, 2007 at 6:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

90293 by Michael Shaw on 7/27 at 10:58 pm

“I remember when everybody blamed unions for the cost of food and other products.”

Now you are preaching to the Choir!  We Snyders, Sieberts, Tellers, and Neilsons, are a 100% Union family!!!

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By Skruff, July 28, 2007 at 5:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

90269 by Douglas Chalmers on 7/27 at 8:34 pm

“So, Skruff, what’s new? This is known as a “subsidy” for employers so that the employees can have a ‘living wage’......”

“Allowing illegals and keeping them illegal makes it even worse because, although they aren’t a welfare burden, they work even cheaper and you all are deluded into accepting that.”

I’ve decided that there are people on this site will say anything (without appology) to prove a point and WIN WIN WIN.

The two seemingly divergent points by the same poster (above) are evidence of this type of oxymoranic postings.

So illegal employment of illegal workers is either a taxpayer burden or it is not. One thing it clearly is: “ILLEGAL” another thing it may be: “COSTLY”

There are folks who believe I (although I hate blueberries) should pay for theirs.  Maybe if they scream loud enough, the Democratic party will make this a platform plank.

I have a suggestion… in return someone else can pay my property tax! Now that might make me a Democrat!

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By Michael Shaw, July 27, 2007 at 11:58 pm Link to this comment

90212 I’d like to add Skruff that corporate welfare has always been 1000 fold in cost to the taxpayers as is domestic welfare. I remember when everybody blamed unions for the cost of food and other products. Now that the unions are all but gone who is to blame now? Costs have skyrocketed in every category yet unions only represent about 17% of the working population. Just the extended cost hikes in defense spending could have ended poverty in this country, built schools and placed everyone on a national health care plan. Our government’s priorities are misplaced. Instead of making our society stronger they choose instead to make defense contractors richer.

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By Douglas Chalmers, July 27, 2007 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

#90212 by Skruff on 7/27 at 5:38 pm: “...The blueberry pickers arrive from the reservations in Canada, and Mexico yearly.  They begin preparing for the season by hitting the local towns for “aid checks” they have come a long way, and have no money.  They continue to recieve aid throughout the picking season, BECAUSE the growers do not pay for harvest until harvest is complete .....So the local taxpayers subsidize the price of blueberries….”

So, Skruff, what’s new? This is known as a “subsidy” for employers so that the employees can have a “living wage”......

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By Skruff, July 27, 2007 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

90050 by Douglas Chalmers on 7/27 at 8:31 am

“although they aren’t a welfare burden,”

This makes me laugh!  I’m attempting to be “accepting” ot the views of others, and If Illegal aliens is what the majority want, so be it.  Let us not pretend that they are not 9as you say below) a welfare burden.

The blueberry pickers arrive from the reservations in Canada, and Mexico yearly.  They begin preparing for the season by hitting the local towns for “aid checks” they have come a long way, and have no money.  They continue to recieve aid throughout the picking season, BECAUSE the growers do not pay for harvest until harvest is complete.

So the local taxpayers subsidize the price of blueberries.

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By Michael Shaw, July 27, 2007 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

90146 Skruff I apologize about the firing of MacArthur part. My eyesight is so bad from the diabetes I misread what you were saying. I thought for some reason you said Hoover fired MacArthur. You didn’t and again i thank you for bringing up the Bonus March.

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By Michael Shaw, July 27, 2007 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

90019 IE…. Then President Hoover had General Mc Arthur fire on the WW I troops who came to Washington to demand their promised bonuses…. Actually Skruff MacArthur was not fired until he attempted to invade communist China during the Truman years and the Korean War. I would like to add that although MacArthur was in overall command, Dwight D. Eisenhower carried out the attack.

That aside, I appreciate your bringing up the Bonus March. Here are a list of casualties from that engagement:

Two veterans were shot and killed.

An 11 week old baby was in critical condition resulting from shock from gas exposure.

Two infants died from gas asphyxiation.

An 11 year old boy was partially blinded by tear gas.

One bystander was shot in the shoulder.

One veteran’s ear was severed by a Cavalry saber.

One veteran was stabbed in the hip with a bayonet.

At least twelve police were injured by the veterans.

Over 1,000 men, women, and children were exposed to the tear gas, including police, reporters, residents of Washington D.C., and ambulance drivers.

And you’re right! What the government has done in the past and in more recent times to our vets is a travesty! The recent VA debacle and the debacles of the Vietnam era lay forth as bitter testimony.

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By Michael Shaw, July 27, 2007 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Skruff I’ve presented you with enough details to show any reasonable human being exactly who John Tanton is. You go right ahead and believe what you want. I’ve made my points and even after doing so you choose to embrace this guy. You are probably just as unaware that the population control folks, also a Tanton inspired movement comes from the same racist and bigot roots that the anti immigration movement comes from. My hat goes off to you for fostering children but it remains firmly on concerning your support of these other said groups.

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By 1drees, July 27, 2007 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I believe the time is right for a GLOBAL PEOPLE’S UNION, OUTSIDE OF THE USA DOMINATION. but any person who tries that might be targetted as that would mean a challenge to the mainstream politicians Hold on the people & then the USA’s ambitions to be the sole power in the world, which in itself is an absudity But THEIR brainwash convinces them that it is ok to Enslave people for the monetory profits . Congress & the Senate are just a bunch of paid but UNFUNNY CLOWNS. i MEAN IF THEY COULDNT DO ANYTHING IN SO MANY SESSIONS THEN ATLEAST I DIDNT BELIEBVE THAT THESE GUYS ARE GONNA WORK ON IT ALL NIGHT & GET SOMEPLACE, THE NOTION OF THE OVERNIGHT DISCUSSION WAS JUST TO FOOL THE AMERICANS THAT the politicians might do something soon , whereas the truth is that they wont coz they are being paid so much that their mouths are too full to say anything.

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By 1drees, July 27, 2007 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

God Help Humanity against the American-Zionist attack, i know that iraq, iran & others will Survive the Zionist attack But I Wish the Americans Had Better Chances. Good Luck to All Honest Americans!

ZIONISTS:Ones who believe they are the “only” humans(God’s"Chosen ones”)& rest is “Trash” to be consumed / used. MODUSOPERENDI:start as business and bilk the populations while laying down Organisations that are for (fake)trade & “our protection” whose actual purpose is surveillance & Harrassement of “nonZIONIST”. they keep screaming “Hitler’s holocaust, Hitler’s holocaust” while they been doing WORSE since 1948 in their Fanatic Fantasyland called Isreal aka “shitty little state”, armed with 300 nuclear bombs that they dont want to talk about.(these are peaceful people!lol) GOAL: creation of some nutty global empire based on pureness of “Chosen Ones” ENEMIES: anyone that does not Comply with them or their propaganda (is also branded an
Antisemite & thoroughly harassed) NETWORK: global and very developed, a well oiled machine bent on EVIL. FEARS: “EVERYBODY is out to get us because we are GOOD!” this is the typical brainwash and then they
WHITEWASH real issues with PATRIOTIC LIES. Also intresting to note that Mr Vanunu who stated the true state of Israeli Nukes rots in jails since 2 decades for speaking the truth, hence we can safely conclude
that TRUTH is definately not a passion in Israel. so GOD HELP ALL THAT COME IN CONTACT WITH ZIONISTS!  AMERICANS TRY AND GET RID OF YOUR ZIONIST MASTERS THAT DICTATE THE WHITE HOUSE, GOODLUCK! Btw welcome to the NORTH AMERICAN UNION in the auspices of the current “Freedom & Democracy”

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By Douglas Chalmers, July 27, 2007 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

#89739 by Skruff on 7/26 at 10:26 am: “...If my family was hungry, and someone in Cuba offered me a job, I’d steal a boat…. I don’t blame the immigrants! BUT their cost, born by US taxpayers (particularly here in Washington County) is unacceptable….”

People always say they don’y blame the immigrants but then blame them anyway ....whining adds up to the same thing. Its not about “secure our borders” but about screwing the workers while exporting industry to China. The economies of California and many other states would no longer exist without cheap labor from Mexico. Allowing illegals and keeping them illegal makes it even worse because, although they aren’t a welfare burden, they work even cheaper and you all are deluded into accepting that.

When Americans get over the garbage about “security” always being touted to them by their politicians and accept that they live in a big wide world and that they need not be afraid, they will slowly become more acceptable to the rest of the world’s population - as long as they pay their way for a change instead of sucking on the breast of Asian finance for their trade deficits (ref. the “yen carry trade”, etc etc).

As it is, China and Japan virtually alrady own the uSA and so people should just shut up. The concept of bombing Iran is America’s denial of its own true parlous situatuion at home for which the politicians have no answer. It is also the American public’s refusal to face up to the fact that they have been stupid enough to wallow in self-acclaim while voting their futures away by electing these idiots in the first place.

As we going to go through this all again - Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq 1, Iraq 2 (have i missed some?) - until, finally, the world says “NO! No more money…” and the uSA ends up like Russia (the USSR) in the 1980’s and cannot afford to pay for their troops to be stationed anywhere outside the country never mind fight a war (I mean invade + repress) or to even have a military of any significane?

#89864 by Skruff on 7/26 at 4:45 pm: “...“#76559 by Expat on 6/09 at 5:27 am: Re “...people spat on the troops…”  - Skruff: “...I do not know why you would repost this without my reply.  Maybe some more of that “misinformation” ......I worked in the Big Veteran’s hospital in Millington New Jersey as a volunteer from 1973 to 1977. The patients there were some of the finest people I’ve met in my life. Many of my friends from high school enlisted in the service and went to Vietnam…..”

Thanks for the point, Skruff ......now there are two versions (incl. Expat’s) ......maybe both are right in such a large country as the USA? As Michael said, ” It was as if the failures of the politicians and bureaucrats were placed squarely on the shoulders of the vets…” by those who did at least sneer….. “Let’s not forget the many thousands of mentally disabled vets who were put out on the streets after Reagan cut their funding either…”.

“This urban legend about “spitting on the troops” was traced back to San Francisco and 1971 shortly after the Ohio shootings at Kent State….” - well, that might be where the media said it started but that’s how these things usually grow into a legend in the first place. As we know, the media is a dubious authority in many ways.

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By Skruff, July 27, 2007 at 7:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89882 by Michael Shaw on 7/26 at 5:26 pm


“John Tanton/Doctor Tanton whatever you want to call him. To me he is simply Tanton racist bigot!”

It is far easier to hold views like the above when discussing the subject impersonally, and without the principle being present to defend himself.  I saw no “racist” overtones when Dr Tanton spoke with me.

“IE ...who is procreating children, and who is already at zero birth rate….that statement in itself has racist overtones. In fact practically everything you have mentioned here supports my very point…anti Catholic, anti Hispanic etc”


Some people see nude statues as Pornography, some see the same statues as art. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1788845.stm

I refuse to be muzzled by folks yelling “racism” when facts are forwarded.  It was Bill Crosby who jumped on black fathers for procreating children and walking away from them. Was that “racist”

You have no way of knowing this, but I fostered many children over the last thirty years, and just about every problem we have in this country can be traced to an overpopulation of unwanted children.

You see the world through your eyes, and I see the world through mine.

“The truth” for us individually is what we say it is… If my “truth” offends your sensibilities, I am truely sorry, but it remains my truth.

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By Skruff, July 27, 2007 at 7:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89901 by Michael Shaw on 7/26 at 6:21 pm says:

“These groups to the contrary, seemed to emerge for the most part from the right and were associated with big businesses and corporations who failed to hire vets at the end of the war…”

This has happened aafter every war since the Indrustrial Revolution. James Cagney was in a movie where he became a gangster because he could not get his old job back after WW I. I guess it was pretty typical. Then President Hoover had General Mc Arthur fire on the WW I troops who came to Washington to demand their promised bonuses.

My father returned to New York in 1946 and attempted to reclaim his job at Westinghouse, but was told he would have to start at the bottom in the mail room where he had been at age 17 (when he was released from the service he was 31. He walked down the block to 26 Broadway and got himself a better job at Standard Oil of New York (later called Mobil) but he always resented Westinghouse and we never had a Westinghouse product in the house.

My favorite disrespect for veterans issue is the almost immediate closing or downgrading of veteran’s hospitals after a war.  It is no wonder our prisons, mental hospitals and homeless shelters are filled with veterans. Talk about “truth to dig” a story which explained why fully 1/3 of our prison population was vietnam veterans in 1979 might be an idea.

I won’t convince anyone here, but the abuses vets suffered from the government which sent them to war exceeded the number of times they were called “baby killer” bu hundreds (IMHO)

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

89808 IE…. Not actually, it was “founded by Dr. Tanton some quater century ago, but has passed to others.

When a few weeks ago?

Wednesday, July 04, 2007
Federation of American Immigration Reform: Not Exactly FAIR and Balanced

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is one of 13 organizations funded, founded or both by John Tanton. FAIR was concocted in 1979 by Tanton when his focus changed to immigration control as the main solution to population control. (He continues to serve on the Board of Directors for FAIR.)

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/07/federation-of-american-immigration.html

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

Well Ernest in my view there were groups of people out there who blamed the troops for losing the war. They were the most vocal and disrespectful and not the stereotypical types we often associate this kind of abuse to. These groups to the contrary, seemed to emerge for the most part from the right and were associated with big businesses and corporations who failed to hire vets at the end of the war. It was as if the failures of the politicians and bureaucrats were placed squarely on the shoulders of the vets and losing the war somehow dishonored them, the private sector, the very bastards who trumped up that war in the first place! Remember up till that point, America had never lost a war so it was very easy for these armchair generals to put the finger of blame on the veterans. I see them as the same flag waving bigots who support the war in Iraq. I call them the pro war “I’ll hold your coat,” crowd.

Let’s not forget the many thousands of mentally disabled vets who were put out on the streets after Reagan cut their funding either. That was worse than a spit in the face!

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

89808

John Tanton/Doctor Tanton whatever you want to call him. To me he is simply Tanton racist bigot!

IE ...who is procreating children, and who is already at zero birth rate….that statement in itself has racist overtones. In fact practically everything you have mentioned here supports my very point…anti Catholic, anti Hispanic etc

The fact Tanton is indeed a racist and has ties to neo-Nazi’s doesn’t seem to phase you.

Perhaps you fail to understand the implications?

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By cann4ing, July 26, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

I returned from Vietnam on Jan. 10, 1969.  By that time a growing number of Vets had joined Vietnam Vets Against the War.  My recollection squares with Skruff’s.  With the exception of one rather juvenile individual who called me a “baby killer,” most people I met in college after returning home welcomed returning Vets and encouraged them to become active in the anti-war movement.

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By Skruff, July 26, 2007 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89778 by Douglas Chalmers on 7/26 at 12:57 pm

“#76559 by Expat on 6/09 at 5:27 am: “...Skruff…How in the world can you say that?  In fact, yes it did.  I was there and people spat on the troops, verbally abused and discriminated against them.  I knew many who were afraid to go anywhere in their uniforms.  It was a low point for this country….”

I do not know why you would repost this without my reply.  Maybe some more of that “misinformation”

I worked in the Big Veteran’s hospital in Millington New Jersey as a volunteer from 1973 to 1977. The patients there were some of the finest people I’ve met in my life. Many of my friends from high school enlisted in the service and went to Vietnam, including My best friend Freddy Orsini, Mike Madeira, Billy and Mike Russo, Larry Desmore, and many more.

This urban legend about “spitting on the troops” was traced back to San Francisco and 1971 shortly after the Ohio shootings at Kent State. The subject in question claimed to be getting off a plane from Vietnam.  NOPE no disembarkation point at SF for troops. The story was false.  But as the folks who remember that time get older, and die off, the legend will persist.

None of my friends nor any of the hundreds of vets I questioned at Millington could site one instance where they witnessed an incident as described above…

It’s one of those things (like others) that everyone “knows” but no one ever saw…

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By cann4ing, July 26, 2007 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Leave it to New Englanders to come up with something as hokey as the “Clam Shell Alliance.”

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

Hey Ernest I appreciate your quoting Henry Wallace. What a patriot!

As you pointed out, it would appear there is little difference between the fascist agenda back then and what we’ve got today. Much of it comes right out of the Hitler-Goebbels play book and Mussolini’s corporatist dream for empire. The rest comes from our own McKinley era and the days of the robber baron.

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By Skruff, July 26, 2007 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89780 by Michael Shaw on 7/26 at 1:01 pm

“The Federation for American Immigration Reform is owned by John Tanton”

Not actually, it was “founded by Dr. Tanton some quater century ago, but has passed to others.

One of the problems with the internet, and this type of discussion is that it is impossable to go into some subjects as completely as they deserve.

I met Doctor John Tanton (MD)at a Clam Shell Alliance meeting in Seabrook New Hampshire in 1975 or 76, I can’t recall exact date. He seemed like a nice fella, although not into (at that time) my part of the enviornmental movement.  It was his premise that population explosion was the greatest enviornmental danger. greater than even NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS.  We gave him short shrift, and went about our business.  What happened next was we (the anti-nuclear folks) won a brief victory, and the Christians attacked Dr. Tanton for his anti-christian “zero population growth” views.

I have come to share Dr. Tanton’s views on population.  Some folks see these views as racist, due to the demographics of who is procreating children, and who is already at zero birth rate. I suppose one could make a case for that position.  I also feel that “the information” on Dr Tanton’s views could be misleading. 

Back when the Hayden Lake crowd had money, they spread it around pretty liberally (although they would hate that word) Governor Wilson (R Calif) got some, but so did Evan Bayh(D Ind) Even our illusterious Senator Olympia Snowe (R.Maine) got money which was traced back to Holocaust deniers. She returned it… But in my brief contact with Dr. Tanton, I would venture to guess his organization wasn’t sophisticated enough (in those days at least) to pick up on that…. and he was so evangical about zero population, I doubt if he much cared where money came from.

So as you said before, information is being minipulated, but the question still remains which information, and by whom?

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Here! Here Ernest!

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By cann4ing, July 26, 2007 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

If Americans were a tenth as focused on the good paying jobs that have been outsourced, as America’s economic elites have abused NAFTA & the WTO by removing this nation’s manufacturing base in a never ending search for below subsidence labor, as they are with economic refugees, victims of the global class war, who have migrated northward in search of survival, we just might turn the corner and begin to restore this nation’s greatness.  Racism and immigrant bashing have always been tools used by the economic elites to divert attention from devastating impact of imperialism both at home and abroad.

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

Here is a listing of Fair affiliate groups across the nation.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=team_teamf07c

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

PS Douglas, I’m glad you brought up Teller. He’s the idiot responsible for the nuclear arms race and who gave us the star wars ripoff during the Reagan Administration. He is also responsible for getting Oppenheimer fired, calling him a communist sympathizer because he realized the disaster in letting such a geni out of its bottle.

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

89778 Well of course you’re right Douglas about the way Vietnam Vets were sometimes received. But I don’t think the military(IE The Pentagon) was actually blamed, but the guys on the ground certainly were. The real blame should have been focused on politicians and corporations but instead it was placed, and I believe intentionally on the average grunt who in himself is a representative of the average citizen.

I consider it a politically and corporately inspired slight of hand. Blame the guy in the trenches along with their families who wanted to get them out of those trenches and back home where they belonged. Blame the peace movement whom as we know were led in great part by Vietnam Veterans. Blame everyone except those who truly deserve the blame.

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

Skruff I would also like to add that your group, Mainers for Sensible Immigration are listed as a FAIR affiliate. FAIR or The Federation for American Immigration Reform is owned by John Tanton.

Criticism
FAIR has been criticized as an ineffective “reform lite” group by Carrying Capacity Network, another organization favoring immigration reduction.[12]

In 2005, an article in the liberal political magazine, The American Prospect, called FAIR “the anti-immigration movement’s most powerful institution”.[13] It further asserted FAIR has cooperated with “white nationalists.”[13]

FAIR has also been criticized for accepting contributions from the Pioneer Fund. Between 1982 and 1994, FAIR received $1.2 million from the foundation,[13]. The Pioneer Fund focuses on projects it perceives will not be easily funded due to controversial subject matter. The Pioneer Fund has been described by a Wall Street Journal editorial as a “white-supremacist outfit devoted to racial purity through eugenics.”[14]

FAIR has been criticized by the International Relations Center as producing “policy rhetoric [that] is often inflammatory, clearly anti-immigrant, and partisan.”[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform

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By Douglas Chalmers, July 26, 2007 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment

#76559 by Expat on 6/09 at 5:27 am: “...Skruff…How in the world can you say that?  In fact, yes it did.  I was there and people spat on the troops, verbally abused and discriminated against them.  I knew many who were afraid to go anywhere in their uniforms.  It was a low point for this country….”

Strange that nobody ever seems to ask why that really happened. The obvious thing is that it was a kind of combined repudiation and denial.

Why blame the military, though? They are only following their/our/your government’s bidding and so we are all a part of the problem.

People still vote for these governments and they still fantasise about glory and valor while murdering and oppressing and stomping around in other peoples’ countries.

People still work for the defense contractors which make money out of never-ending wars. It has nothing to to with peace and it is all contrived in the first place.

Given that the USA is still largely in denial about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, what will happen when the next nuclear bomb/missile is dropped? Like Gulf War 2’s “shock and awe”, the attacks on Japan were to warn the neighbours.

In 1945 it was China and Russia and the crazy Gen. Curtis Le May was straining at the leash to drop an H-bomb on Korea or China in 1950 as soon as it was invented egged on by the insane Jew, Eduard Teller.

We are all at the stage now that being that childish can lead to total anihilation through war and radio-active contamination, etc etc. What level of refusal or denial will be sufficient then?

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

89739 Well I would add Skruff that the economic drain on this nation by illegal immigrants is a spit in the ocean in comparison to the corporate rip-off of the national treasury. Also most immigrants legal or otherwise work and pay taxes and spend money that helps helps local economies.

Frankly I don’t support illegal immigration. I believe in law. But that is not nor has it been the point of our conversation.

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

89727 Franky Reg I don’t believe anything the government says, period! If they said it was sunny on a sunny day I wouldn’t believe them even if I were tanning on a beach.

9/11 in my mind is a retaliation of our corporate and military actions abroad. Knowing full well the president and his security adviser Rice had ample warnings(I believe there were 50) of an imminent attack using aircraft and choosing to ignore those warnings says volumes and in fact leads directly to the Wolfowitz Doctrine/Project for a New American Century which stipulates in its own binding that it would take a new Pearl Harbor to implement it. Well we got the new Pearl Harbor and we’ve got the Wolfowitz Doctrine as our foreign policy. Meanwhile the rich get tax cuts and the poor get shafted. Business couldn’t be better!

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By Skruff, July 26, 2007 at 11:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Yet they are devoting a whole lot of time and effort to blame all of our problems on illegal immigrants.”

Actually, here at “Mainers for Sensible Immigration” we generally take the position that EMPLOYERS who pay wages under the table, and don’t check documentation are “to blame” as well as our sleazy politicians who will not secure our borders as 70% of Americans feel they should.

If my family was hungry, and someone in Cuba offered me a job, I’d steal a boat…. I don’t blame the immigrants! BUT their cost, born by US taxpayers (particularly here in Washington County) is unacceptable.

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

89654 No Skruff what I meant was you didn’t understand the point I was making that in fact the anti-immigration movement is nothing more than a facade and a distraction. I’m not trying to imply I’m smarter or know more than you do. What I am implying is that most people don’t realize who is behind this movement. There was I time I didn’t realize it either until someone pointed it out to me.

We are being manipulated by a system that will never solve the immigration problem because corporations benefit too much from it. Yet they are devoting a whole lot of time and effort to blame all of our problems on illegal immigrants. Why? Because they want the nation to focus on this. Meanwhile liberty is gone, the nation is in trillions of insurmountable debt, 9 million children have no health care, we are waring illegally giving hundreds of billions of our dollars to defense contractors and energy corporations, the government is spying on us etc etc etc.

As for your not trusting me or my not trusting you, read Maurice’s post. You my friend are not the enemy nor am I yours.

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By Michael Shaw, July 26, 2007 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

Sean Maurice Hunt that reminds me of what the Rothschild’s of London once said about their international banking system.

“The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages…will bear its burden without complaint, and perhaps without suspecting that the system is inimical to their best interests.”
- Rothschild Brothers’ of London communiqué to associates in New York June 25, 1863

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By Reg, July 26, 2007 at 10:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Americans have been led by their proverbial noses by the corporate controlled media.  They are uninformed and not the least bit concerned about the destruction of democratic principles for which so many people have sacrificed their lives in the past.

The most horrific lie of all, that led to all the others has been totally embraced as truth by most Americans….and it is one lie that cannot even be discussed:

Must read: And Then There Was One: The Final Holdout

CLICK HERE
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=648

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By Skruff, July 26, 2007 at 5:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89537 by Michael Shaw on 7/25 at 4:57 pm

“I still don’t think he gets it.”

I was wondering how long it would take for you to say this.

You tell me public opinion is being minipulated, and then you imply (because I don’t buy your line of thought) that I am less informed than you.

Perhaps “public” opinion is being minipulated.  Say for a minute that I accept that. 

Now we have to proceed to determine which “opinion” is the one ensconced by the “minipulators”.... Then we must determine who are the minipulators.

What good reason do I have to trust you?  or you me?

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By Sean Maurice Hunt, July 25, 2007 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

They want you to be distracted…they want you to take your frustrations out on each other…they want you to turn on each other…they want you to forget…they want you to fatigue…they want you to be controlled…they want you to be soft…Let the pressure build and they will not be able to control the explosion…

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment

89487 Well Skruff I appreciate the apology and it wasn’t necessary but frankly the information I provided about who began this ant-immigration movement is pretty cut and dry. John Tanton in fact is responsible for 99.9% of it and along with several republican cohorts have been trying to legitimize this hate group by making themselves look like a grass roots movement. In fact they even told their Neo-Nazi cohorts to keep a low public profile to enable this deception. The Scaife Family(Mellon Bank) are one of it’s biggest supporters.

As for the 14 points being dated that’s because they were done years ago not last week. The 14 points themselves were established by several historians and intellectuals who studied every fascist nation on earth from Hitler’s Germany and Mussolini’s Italy to Peru and Paraguay, Pappa Doc, baby doc etc etc. Of every fascist regime, the 14 points were what they all had in common. Especially a centralized national police force that usurps the power of local governments and controls every police department in this nation. Aka The Department of Homeland Security.

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

89524 That was the point I was trying to make to Skruff Ernest. Public opinion is being shaped for the masses, we are all being deceived. I still don’t think he gets it.

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

Absolutely Ernest. When people are depicted as beasts and animals what else can you call it?

I was listening to democracy now today and they were talking about Puerto Rico. Today is the 109th anniversary of the US invasion. Puerto Rico is called a US Commonwealth, but as noted perhaps commonwealth isn’t a very accurate description since the wealth all went to special interests while the common live in perpetual squalor. Also many Americans either don’t know or even acknowledge that Puerto Ricans are US citizens even though half it’s population lives in the United States.

We need to take a good hard look at ourselves as a society because frankly we are not better than anyone else whether we think we are or not. We are all human beings, perfect in God’s imagine and the sooner we get with that program the better.

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By cann4ing, July 25, 2007 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

Michael Shaw, I think you can see elements of neo-Nazi racism and those elements with which Emma Goldman so eloquently found fault in the current anti-immigrant bashing, especially Ms. Goldman’s observation that “those who have had the fortune to be born in one spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting another spot.”

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By cann4ing, July 25, 2007 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

On April 9, 1944, while this nation was locked in a life and death struggle with fascism in Europe, the New York Times published a description of “the American fascist” provided by Vice President Henry Wallace.

“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence.  His method is to poison the channels of public information.  With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public….

“They claim to be superpatriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution.  They demand free enterprise but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest.  Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjugation.”

But for the date of publication, I would have thought Vice President Wallace’s prescient observations were intended to describe the Bush administration and 21st Century American hard-right pundits like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and, of course, Ann Coulter aka “America’s Eva Braun.”

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By Skruff, July 25, 2007 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#89437 by Michael Shaw on 7/25 at 11:15 am

I’ll start with an appology; You never said “everybody” you did imply that those who support the deportation of illegal immigrants are following nazis or facists who you contended are leading the movement.

In addition you said:

“Here is a blow by blow comparison to Bush and the 14 points of fascism.”

to which I reply:

The article is dated, and obsolete as Rumsfield is no longer at Defense, The Republicans do not have a lock on congress, and Bush’s approval rating has hit the all time low of 25% mostly based on the war in Iraq.

I agree with you, the government of our country is sliding toward a steep abyss.  I disagree that Bush is the cause or even the first president to head us in this direction. 

Abe Lincoln ran a prison which made Gitmo look comfortable. He also suspended habeas corpus, and sat back while New York’s newest Immigrants lynched black folks who had been there for years.

So now we’ve gotten sufficantly off the subject for me to ask, what does all this have to do with closing our borders to illegal immigrants. According to polls the majority of Americans (left and right on the spectrum) agree with a plan which first secures our border to the south, and then dealing with the folks who arrived here illegally.

facism by definition does not respect majority opinion, so the derailing of the back-room amnesty deal by Americans who (again in record numbers) called their elected represenatives to demand an end to the most recent amnesty bill is a good sign democracy may be making a slight comeback?

Anything Bush and the Democratic leadership agree on can not be good for the average American right?

The enemy of my enemy my friend?

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By blafo, July 25, 2007 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

#89342 by Skruff on 7/25 at 4:52 am
when you begin labeling everyone who disagrees with your POV facist, you begin to sound like the Bush administration.

Read George Lakoff’s book:
Don’t Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate: The Essential Guide for Progressives

Conservatives have gained power through a concerted strategy of labelling and linguistic framing. Liberals in America need to focus our attention on finding effective labels, slogans and effective linguistic frames that describe what it is about our conservative opponents that we feel is wrong. “Facist” may be a bit strong but in Bush’s case it’s not far off the mark. And remember progressives, labels always stretch the truth. A good example is the very effective right wing label “bleeding heart liberal,” which has successfully framed the notion of compassion as something subversive and weak.
How about calling conservatives “heartless conservatives” (seriously). It fits in the frame of the poor not deserving welfare, women being jailed for having abortions, the working poor not deserving a fair wage, the idea that one individual having 1000’s of times more wealth than another is just, and the killing of tens of thousands of innocent women and children Iraqis by our military as acceptable as long as it furthers American interests. I consider all of these things to be heartless notions, and a conservative who espouses and advocates them should rightly be labeled a “heartless conservative.”
They’ve even commandeered the very definition of the word freedom (another good Lakoff book “Whose Freedom?”). To conservatives freedom is all about power and guns and war and wealth. To liberals freedom is about equality and opportunity and tolerance and fairness. Don’t let conservative howls of “unfair play” faze you when formulating labels that accurately describe their political positions. They’ve successfully used framing to stifle progressive voices and undermine ideals fundamental to this nation, and have succeeded in creating a neo-oligarchy. Ours has undeniably become a society of sound bites and slogans. We have to take our struggle into this arena and fight fire with fire.

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Here is a blow by blow comparison to Bush and the 14 points of fascism.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

Hey Skruff you should read this:

The Bush Hitler Thing
  t r u t h o u t | Reader Submission

  Friday 09 January 2004

  Dear Sir,

    My family was one of Hitler’s victims…........

.......... I can only hope that in the coming year there will be some sign - some hint - that we are not becoming that which we abhor. The Theory of the Grotesque fares all too well these days. It may not be Nazi Germany - it might be a lot worse.

  SL | Wisconsin

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3201

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

89324 PS Skruff, I never said everybody. You’re putting words in my mouth.

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

89397 Thanks for bringing up Emma Goldman Ernest. She’s One of my personal heroes. I believe H.L. Meinken produced a similar analogy. Personally, I see nothing wrong in the act of patriotism. I do see a clear line however where patriotism becomes more like feasting on a slaughtered animal than showing pride for one’s country.

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By Michael Shaw, July 25, 2007 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

89342 Yes Skruff patriotic songs in themselves are not fascist and that’s not what I’m trying to say. You misunderstand. It is how they are used in correlation with the other points. Only together do they spell fascism. Also it’s the ritual in their use. We all know every country has it’s own brand of patriotic songs,emblems and flags whether they are fascist or not. But when these relatively nonchalant entities suddenly become mass rallies and are subjected by rhetorical propaganda accompanied by media frenzy they become something else. Also when these symbols are brought forth like flag pins on lapels to show patriotism while the constitution is being trampled on clearly you have fascism. No single point of the 14 points of fascism makes a country fascist. They all do. Clearly the parallel between the 14 points and the Bush administration is uncanny and perhaps even inarguable.

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By cann4ing, July 25, 2007 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

“What, then, is patriotism?  ‘Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels,’ said Dr. [Samuel] Johnson.  Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses….

“Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism…Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate.  Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot.  It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others.
....
“We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people.  We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence.  Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting…bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens….[O]ur hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that it will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations.

“Such is the logic of patriotism.”

Excerpts from a speech by Emma Goldman delivered in San Francisco in 1908.

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By Skruff, July 25, 2007 at 5:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89287 by Michael Shaw on 7/24 at 10:14 pm

You posted the 14 points of facism one of those points (although I disagree with most of them) listed “singing of patriotic songs.” “patriotism” is adhearence to a movement, country or cause.  I remember singing Woody Guthrie’s anthem in the peach orchards of Oklahoma back in the sixties.  The pickers were not facist, The growers (who were my idea of facists) had no songs.

My point is, or was, you can disagree with me, Great I love a good discussion, but when you begin labeling everyone who disagrees with your POV facist, you begin to sound like the Bush administration.

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 11:14 pm Link to this comment

Here’s one more Skruff from the Southern Poverty Law Center. It’s about John Tanton the guy responsible for the entire anti-immigration movement.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=93

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 10:55 pm Link to this comment

89071 Mr. Chalmer’s IE The house of Saud….I agree. apparently so does Mr. Ritter.

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Skruff

As for Woody Guthrie you’ve completely lost me. What does singing about unions and the plight of workers got to do with fascism? That song was in fact a direct response to God Bless America, a song Woody considered phony.

Here are some verses we don’t often associate to the song:

In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office, I’d seen my people.
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me?
As I went walking, I saw a sign there;
And on the sign there, it said, ‘No Trespassing.’
But on the other side; it didn’t say nothing!
That side was made for you and me

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment

Here’s more:

Americas Special Report

Immigration Debate: Politics, Ideologies of Anti-Immigration Forces

By Tom Barry | June 17, 2005

Americas Program, International Relations Center (IRC)

http://americas.irc-online.org/reports/2005/0506ideologies_body.html

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Check this out Skruff

This is an interesting read from PublicEye.org

Groups Promoting Oppression or Right-Wing Agendas

http://www.publiceye.org/research/directories/dem_grp_undermine.html

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

PS Skruff I am not Adolf either and although I agree with you illegal immigration must be addressed, my main point was that this anti-immigration movement was created in the first place by fascists and bigots and is being financed by the same corporations who helped create the immigration problem in the first place. If you look at Scott Ritter’s Calling out idiot America, this is yet another example of it. Focus the debate on the illegals and blame them for all our problems. Meanwhile the ripoff continues.

I’m not calling people opposed to illegal immigration Nazi’s. I’m saying they are being cheered on by these groups that were created by neo-nazies and bigots and the government is using this entire issue to take the focus off of them and place it on the immigrants.

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment

89182

“When the Arizona Republic published a 1986 WITAN memo shortly before the 1988 general elections, the memo’s anti-Latino, white supremacist, and anti-Catholic language lent credence to the charges that the official English and immigration restrictionist movements were led by bigots.”
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1533 

Further comment comes from the Southern Poverty Law Office:
“Despite attempts to appear otherwise, it [NumbersUSA] is a wholly owned subsidiary of U.S. Inc., a sprawling, nonprofit funding conduit that has spawned three anti-immigration groups and underwrites several others, many of which were represented at the NumbersUSA conclave.”
Two weeks after the NumbersUSA lobbying trip to the offices of Tom Tancredo and a series of other congressmen, Glenn Spencer http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=978, head of the Tanton-funded anti-immigrant American Patrol, was one of the main speakers at a conference hosted by Jared Taylor of American Renaissance magazine. Joining Spencer, who warned his audience that a second Mexican-American war would erupt in 2003, was an array of key extremists:

Mark Weber, a principal of the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review; http://www.adl.org/holocaust/weber.asp
White power web maven, former Klansman and ex-con Don Black; http://www.stormfront.org/dblack/
Gordon Lee Baum, “chief executive officer” of the CCC; http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Gordon_Lee_Baum
and several members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/N_Alliance.asp

The fact they(English First) are funded by the Scaife Family(Mellon Bank) lends even more credence that their agenda reaches far beyond English as a primary language or workers rights. It is certainly food for thought and deserves further investigation. I’d like to add nearly all of the 300,000 ATM machines in the US are multi-lingual, including those of the Mellon Bank. There are also strong ties in all of this to the Council for National Policy.
Below are some of their members and supporters:
American Legislative Exchange Council, (ALEC): Established in 1973 by Paul Weyrich of the Free Congress Foundation’s Coalition for Constitutional Liberties, among others, ALEC’s purpose is to reach out to state office holders. In the words of ALEC’s former executive director, Sam Brunelli:

“ALEC’s goal is to ensure that these state legislators are so well informed, so well armed, that they can set the terms of the public policy debate, that they can change the agenda, that they can lead.”

ALEC has the financial support of more than 200 corporations including Coors now Castle Rock Foundation, Scaife’s Family and Allegheny Foundation, Amway, IBM, Ford, Philip Morris, Exxon, Texaco and Shell Oil. William Bennett, [CNP’s] Jack Kemp, [CNP’s] John H. Sununu, and George Bush have all addressed ALEC sessions in recent years

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By Skruff, July 24, 2007 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

89108 by Michael Shaw on 7/24 at 8:37
The irony in all of this is that the very corporations who gave us the illegal immigration problem are the very ones backing the racists and Nazi’s who created the anti-immigration movement.

I would have to see some evidence of this to believe it.  It sounds like “Bushspeak” to me.  I am not aware of any corporate entity supporting strong borders. I am aware of Hormel, Tyson, and Microsoft attempting, by any means necessary, to jam Amnesty down thew throats of US working people.

I am not Adolph, but I firmly believe in secure borders, a “shield” for our lower and middle class workers, and a legal system of Immigration based soley on community-based need for workers.

If the open borders folks were serious (I’m talking about John McCain, Ted Kennedy, and GWB now) they would also propose disposing of the “Agricultural exemption to minimum wage”

They haven’t, so I KNOW who they are fronting for, and it ain’t US workers.

Finally, those who would like to see Naziism, The KKK, and skinheads in retreat would do well to begin preaching equity for US CITIZENS. During the depression we had the greatest number of self admitted xenophobes in our history.  What breeds hate and violence against immigrants?  Citizens without jobs, with little food, and less hope…

The 14 points of Fascism you post is unconvincing as many of the “signs” are present in other movements for an instance “patriotic songs like Woody Guthrie’s “This Land is your land” not a precursor to totalitarian government.

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By Michael Shaw, July 24, 2007 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

88639 Well Skruff since our population is growing anyway and since there has been a huge constant influx of people moving from all over the country(and the rest of the world) to California and elsewhere, I’ll admit illegal immigrants aren’t helping the matter but by overall comparison the affect is scant. We haven’t even begun to mention our own exploitations of Mexico either or the fact we support the 5 families there who own everything and address no social problems there but solve them by sending their people here. We’re not even addressing the fact why they’re here in the first place though Chavez as you pointed out knew. US Corporations bought them here and Reagan’s amnesty only enhanced the problem. But it is no problem for corporations who pay poverty level salaries without benefits and allow the tax payer to take up the slack for everything else including, food, clothing, shelter and health care.

The irony in all of this is that the very corporations who gave us the illegal immigration problem are the very ones backing the racists and Nazi’s who created the anti-immigration movement. This lends to Chomsky’s theory about limiting the field of debate. For that reason I consider it to be a method in distraction clearly meant to serve and cover the nefarious activities of this current administration.

No small wonder the American Legislative Exchange Council(ALEC) plays such a major role since their goal is to “set the terms of the public policy debate,” so they can “change the agenda.”

The government who generally tell us nothing are going out of their way in shaping public opinion over this matter. It is dubious, an act in mis-direction and above all else, racist. Meanwhile corporate fascism continues unscathed while we war for oil and lose our liberty. Clearly what is going on here comes directly from the 14 points of fascism.

http://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

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By Douglas Chalmers, July 24, 2007 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

#88781 by Lewis on 7/22 at 11:35 pm: “...The real problem in the middle east is now and always has been the royal house of Saudi Arabia which is the ultimate source for all the anti-west fervor….”

Perhaps not totally, Lewis but they are another elite regime. Check up on their involvement in massive drug shipments from S.America via private jets and under cover of diplomatic immunity and you can guess they have all the support from the CIA that they need. Syriana, crap ....its more like another Contra-Gate!!!!

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By Lewis, July 23, 2007 at 12:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Basically, this article supports what I’ve been saying for years (since before this criminal war was started, at least).

The real problem in the middle east is now and always has been the royal house of Saudi Arabia which is the ultimate source for all the anti-west fervor.

Where did the 9/11 terrorists come from?  Not Iraq, but Saudi Arabia.  Where did bin Laden come from?  SA.  Who’s family is still hugely powerful in SA?  bin Laden’s. Which country funds the most anti-west and anti-USA groups?  Oh, right, Saudi Arabia.

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By Skruff, July 22, 2007 at 6:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

88510 by Michael Shaw on 7/21 at 12:34 pm

88492 Hey Douglas since you’ve brought up racism I thought it would be a good idea to also take a look at the anti-immigration movement. My guess is that many do not realize it is led and supported by bigots and neo nazi’s.

How about this for Nazis.

Ceasar Chavez (remember him United Farm Workers) had his union picket the border patrol stations in Southern California to stop illegals. The UFW also used some very violent taticts to remove illegals from the fields.

Mr. Chavez believed the illegals were a tool used by growers to keep the wages of farm workers low.

The Navajos on the big Fort Defiance Reservation are fighting the illegals who use their reservation as a stopping point and sap badly needed social services.

The AARP is asking the Federal Government to fund the hospital care for the illegal immigrants flooding southern California’s hospitals there-by making care for citizens even more costly and occasionally unavailable.

Sorry, but folks who are opposed to amnesty, open borders, and unlimited H-1b Visas are not generally Nazis. It is the duty of a government to conserve resources for its citizen population.  EXCESS may be sold.

The quality of life for our children and their children will suffer if we do not get control of our borders.  There are close to 4 Billion people who would have a better life if they moved to the States. Can any of you folks (those who advocate opening our borders) tell me what is the correct number we should accept?

Please before you answer, check the availability of necessary resources (water, clean air, and arable land) in the southwest area where most illegals settle.

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By Michael Shaw, July 21, 2007 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

88520 Interesting stuff in here Douglas. Makes one wonder what is truly going on. It seems to me the western media has certainly stretched the truth and frankly anyone dumb enough to enter an Islamic war zone should realize the risks. That said, I am no fan of the Taliban, an entity (as you know) we in fact created. Had Bush not wasted our time in Iraq we might have been able to capture bin Laden and stabilize the region. Instead it seems the plan is to destabilize a far more vast region by hitting Iran. Won’t a move like this in fact strengthen the Taliban?

One thing this brings to mind is the constant chatter from the neocons calling this so called war on terror a world war 3. The reality as I see it is Bush and Cheney are trying to make it into a WW3. I’d call that sheer madness! I can only hope at this point there is some semblance of sanity left in government to stop them.

As for the black shirts of LA! Ditto! Also interesting that the very neo-Nazi’s who are supporting anti-immigration groups have themselves multiplied 10 fold in the last 6 year, unscathed by any reports by the major media. But we’re all (ala Lou Dobbs) focused on the immigrants now aren’t we!?! As Noam Chomsky said, “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.”

I appreciate your comments Mr. Chalmers.

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By Douglas Chalmers, July 21, 2007 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

#88510 by Michael Shaw on 7/21 at 12:34 pm: “...Hey Douglas since you’ve brought up racism I thought it would be a good idea to also take a look at the anti-immigration movement. My guess is that many do not realize it is led and supported by bigots and neo nazi’s….”

Couldn’t help but wonder about those black-shirted LAPD stormtroopers od Arnie’s beating up on everbody in MacArthur Park not long back. Everyone from the bystanders to the TV media got a belting ....just for practice. Nothing was happening until they arrived….!

By the way, gettting back to Scott Ritter territory, though - another kind of racism:-
 
Taliban claims German hostages killed, S.Koreans could be next - KANDAHAR, Afghanistan: “A spokesman for Afghanistan’s Taliban claimed Saturday the militants had killed two Germans and five Afghan hostages and threatened that 23 South Korean captives could meet the same fate…..” http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/289639/1/.html and hostage in pic 2.

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By Michael Shaw, July 21, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

88492 Hey Douglas since you’ve brought up racism I thought it would be a good idea to also take a look at the anti-immigration movement. My guess is that many do not realize it is led and supported by bigots and neo nazi’s.

“When the Arizona Republic published a 1986 WITAN memo shortly before the 1988 general elections, the memo’s anti-Latino, white supremacist, and anti-Catholic language lent credence to the charges that the official English and immigration restrictionist movements were led by bigots.”
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1533 

Further comment comes from the Southern Poverty Law Office:
“Despite attempts to appear otherwise, it [NumbersUSA] is a wholly owned subsidiary of U.S. Inc., a sprawling, nonprofit funding conduit that has spawned three anti-immigration groups and underwrites several others, many of which were represented at the NumbersUSA conclave.”
Two weeks after the NumbersUSA lobbying trip to the offices of Tom Tancredo and a series of other congressmen, Glenn Spencer http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=978, head of the Tanton-funded anti-immigrant American Patrol, was one of the main speakers at a conference hosted by Jared Taylor of American Renaissance magazine. Joining Spencer, who warned his audience that a second Mexican-American war would erupt in 2003, was an array of key extremists:

Mark Weber, a principal of the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review; http://www.adl.org/holocaust/weber.asp
White power web maven, former Klansman and ex-con Don Black; http://www.stormfront.org/dblack/
Gordon Lee Baum, “chief executive officer” of the CCC; http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Gordon_Lee_Baum
and several members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/N_Alliance.asp

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By Douglas Chalmers, July 21, 2007 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

#87188 by Bukko in Australia on 7/16 at 2:56 am: “...I didn’t know of any rule on TruthDig about resident reviewers. I hope I’m not considered one. I’m just a country-abandoning loudmouth….And whilst I’m at it Skruffo, I liked that anecdote on the Stan Goff thread about your mom sticking it up the anti-Semitic friend with the sensitive nose….!”

That’s about 95 comments too many from our Aussie friend. I read somewhere that they have an iodine deficiency over there which affects their brains….. I wonder what is in the water in some states in the USA, though???

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By 1drees, July 20, 2007 at 10:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ZIONISTS:Ones who believe they are the “only” humans(God’s"Chosen ones”)& rest is “Trash” to be consumed / used. MODUSOPERENDI:start as business and bilk the populations while laying down Organisations that are for (fake)trade & “our protection” whose actual purpose is surveillance & Harassement of “nonZIONIST”. they keep screaming “Hitler’s holocaust, Hitler’s holocaust” while they been doing WORSE since 1948 in their Fanatic Fantasyland called Isreal aka “shitty little state”, armed with 300 nuclear bombs that they dont want to talk about.(these are peaceful people!lol) GOAL: creation of some nutty global empire based on pureness of “Chosen Ones” ENEMIES: anyone that does not Comply with them or their propaganda (is also branded an
Antisemite & thoroughly harassed) NETWORK: global and very developed, a well oiled machine bent on EVIL. FEARS: “EVERYBODY is out to get us because we are good!” this is the typical brainwash and then they
WHITEWASH real issues with PATRIOTIC LIES. Also intresting to note that Mr Vanunu who stated the true state of Israeli Nukes rots in jails since 2 decades for speaking the truth, hence we can safely conclude
that TRUTH is definately not a passion in Israel. so GOD HELP ALL THAT COME IN CONTACT WITH ZIONISTS!

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By Peacetroll, July 20, 2007 at 9:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nice post Flycatcher.

Truth

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