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DIG DIRECTOR

The Rev. Madison Shockley
The Rev. Madison Shockley is a minister of the United Church of Christ in Carlsbad, Calif. and a regular commentator on religion, race, politics and popular culture....










 

Jesus: The Man, the Myth

(Page 2)

The Death of Jesus

The death of the man from Nazareth was historically inconsequential—a crucified Jew in Jerusalem among so many hundreds crucified during the riotous atmosphere that often surrounded the Passover observance. Passover, a celebration of Jewish freedom, was always an anxious time under Rome’s oppressive occupation. The historical fact is that Jesus was crucified by the Roman Empire. The charge was political sedition, considered a capital crime. For being known as the “King of the Jews” he was crucified by Rome because assuming such a title challenged the sovereignty of the Caesar. The trial scenes recorded in the Gospels were a fiction devised by the early Christian writers to put blame for Jesus’ death on Jewish leadership and deflect responsibility from Roman officials. They did this so that the new religion could survive in a hostile Roman Empire. Not only do they deny any Roman responsibility for the crucifixion, the Gospel of Matthew has a Roman centurion confess, “Truly this man was God’s Son!” (27:54).

The Resurrection

Was the resurrection a historical event? No. It is a thoroughly theological concept. We learn a lot from the resurrection literature of the early Christian writers. Most of the resurrection stories find the disciples either hiding in fearful seclusion or having returned to their former lives (mostly as fishermen). So why was resurrection necessary?

With his death, his message, his meaning and his mission were now left to others to remember, interpret and continue. It all would have been so simple if Jesus had just written his sermons down. The most likely explanation as to why Jesus didn’t write his own Gospel is that Jesus was probably illiterate. Early Christian communities viewed themselves as authentically representing the words, ministry and mission of Jesus. The only way they could do this was if Jesus were still alive. So, they resurrected him.

The Gospels

But Jesus’ story proved quite malleable in the hands of the skilled editors who would later tell his story. Initially, a wide variety of such remembrances, interpretations and extrapolations emerged from the early Christian communities that had known the historical Jesus. This group—its members generally were known as “the disciples”—was soon distilled into an authoritative clique that the early church came to revere as “the Apostles.” Paul is the only apostle from whom we have authentic written product. However, he, by his own admission, was a lesser apostle because he never knew the historical Jesus but rather was commissioned as an apostle (“as one untimely born”) by the “risen” Jesus.

Though the documents that ultimately became the four Gospels bear the names of two apostles (Matthew and John) and two alleged companions (Mark, supposedly a friend of Peter, and someone named Luke, supposedly a friend of Paul—though the only evidence for this is “Luke” himself), they are all anonymous. These characterizations were added in the Second Century in order to add authority to the Gospels. As literary production proliferated, the early church began to list (canonize) certain documents as useful and all others were deemed heretical. It wasn’t until the Fourth Century that the Christian “canon” was closed.

However, all of the Gospels (in their final form) and Paul refer to Jesus as far more than a Jewish sage, wisdom prophet and sometime healer and exorcist. But it is exactly this “more” that reveals the fluid treatment that the historical Jesus received at the hands of his biographers. It seems that they mapped his footsteps rather than followed them. Each created the Jesus he needed for his constituency. Matthew mapped a very Jewish Jesus for his Jewish Christian community. Mark mapped a martyr Jesus to encourage his besieged community facing the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish war with Rome. Luke mapped a Holy Spirit that inhabited Jesus to do the work of God and inhabited his church to be the embodiment of the divine presence. John mapped a cosmic Jesus from the beginning of time to the end of eternity. All of this is evidence that the decades separating these writings from the life of Jesus were filled with theological imagination. It wasn’t until the authority of the first Christian emperor, Constantine, combined with a nascent church bureaucracy that alternative interpretations of Jesus were quashed. Only then would the Christian Church (big C) emerge as an international operation of culture and power with Jesus (the) Christ as its imperial head and the bishop of Rome as his vicar.

So Who Is Jesus Today?

Liberation theology is a branch of Christian theology that understands God to be primarily at work in the world for the liberation of the oppressed. Drawing from the story of the Israelite Exodus (Exodus 3:16), the Israelite prophetic tradition and the teachings and preaching of Jesus, liberation theologians see a clear and consistent “preferential option for the poor” (a phrase borrowed from the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops’ campaign for human development). Liberation theology identifies Jesus with the marginalized in every society, whether they be peasants in Latin America, African Americans in the United States or gays and lesbians everywhere. So, for black liberation theology Jesus is poor and black. When James Cone declared in 1969 that “Jesus is black” he caused no little controversy in religious circles. The claim by black theology that “Jesus is black” (note the present tense) had both theological and racial implications. First it meant that Jesus was not white. Jesus could not be white because whites were the embodiment of black oppression in America. Theologically, the claim meant that the Eurocentric faith produced by imperialistic Christianity was a gross distortion of the original Jesus movement. This distorted theology produced icons and images of a white-skinned, blond-haired and blue-eyed Jesus totally unreflective of the Palestinian peasant named Jesus, who lived at the nexus of the African and Asian continents. The assertion that Jesus was not white sent a shudder through a mainstream Christianity that was suddenly forced to confront its own racism and examine its version of Christianity, which was little more than a baptized Western culture. This same Christianity has not hesitated to traffic in slavery or condemn the Third World to colonial subservience.

The claim that Jesus is black, or gay, or a woman, or a peasant, is not an assertion about Jesus’ personal identity. It is more a way of making demonstrably clear what the central focus of Jesus’ ministry would be today. A popular phrasing of this approach simply asks, “What would Jesus do?” Liberation theology sees Jesus engaged in a ministry outside the four walls of the church and less engaged in a priestly ministry of liturgy and incense.

Conversely, the traditional mainline churches continue to hold themselves out as the embodiment of the continuing presence of Jesus—whether the Roman pontiff as the vicar of Christ, or the Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist claims of apostolic succession (for their bishops) or the Protestant focus on the local gathering of Christians in the church (derived from the Greek ekklesia) as the “body of Christ.”


The “Jesus movement” (i.e. those who followed Jesus prior to a formal church evolving) was left leaderless and without direction. The anticipation of Jesus’ death in the Gospels benefited from their hindsight of knowing how the story ended. But for the original disciples Jesus’ death was probably a sudden and unexpected occurrence.

Continued: Conclusion

 

Dig last updated on Dec. 20, 2005


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Dig Director's Blog

Apr. 12, 2006

Hallelujah! Easter is almost here. Aren’t you glad? What’s that low sigh I hear? Ohhhhh that’s right, you’re one of those progressive Christians. Easter is probably the most conflicted time of the year among progressive churches, even more so than Christmas. Even a progressive Christian can reasonably assert that Jesus was really born, even as the debate goes on among others about how he was born. But this is not so with Easter. Either he was resurrected or he was not. And when we say he was not, then someone somewhere will quote I Corinthians 15:12 to us, “Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?”

- - -
Dec. 22, 2005

Shockley addresses reader comments regarding the historical Jesus and representations of “the Christ.”

- - -
Dec. 21, 2005

The culture wars have clearly gotten out of hand when the front line is Christmas.

- - -
 
 
 

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By tgambill, April 27, 2009 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

“That’s not proof, Tom.  That is your set of beliefs.  Just read Shenonymous’ post again and again.  It is full of reason and logic—something that the fanciful stories of unicorns dancing and seas parting do NOT hold.”

*****She is smart and writes like a college professor.  However, we are four dimensional beings and have no capacity to understand the supernatural.  NO scientist or physicist or any human being in the history of mankind except Jesus, understood the true nature of the supernatual.  We as humans don’t have the capacity to comprehend it.  This is why God INSPIRED the Bible, King James Only, to be translated after being hidden and then after the dark ages begin translations and guided by Gods Holy Spirit to be put together properly.  Inspiration by the Holy Spirit confirmed by the Bible and the opposite is true gives up a glance into the supernatual existence of God.  God defined is God destroyed…..Understanding the vastness of God for us Puny four dimensional creatures is like trying to pour the Atlantic Ocean into a coffee cup. 

“Everything you wrote to me is complete, dogmatic rhetoric.  How ironic that you would say that my skepticsm is “atheist rhetoric”.  Atheism is a LACK of a belief.”

******Oppps, Atheism is a lack of Belief….oh my you sure are right about that. 


“I don’t need rhetoric for my stance.”

*****lol…Annie, you have atheistic rhetoric for goodness sake.  smile

“Again, you saying something is true, does not make it true anymore than a Muslim coming here and preaching to you about Islam.”

*****Again, the same applies to you in all due respect. 

“OF course you would refute it, but they would claim it is the truth—just like you!!! Classic strawman argument and one I don’t really even contend. God and Allah are the same imaginary being. Muhammad actually has more historicity than Jesus, so go figure.”

*****Oh Annie, Jesus has more historicity than any character in history.  His historicity goes back thousands of years before the NT is experienced and written by the eyewitnesses.  His birth fulfulled over 300 prophesies, 33 which were major ones.  Want to calculate the odds on that one? 

“I am not a deity, Tom; that’s true.  But neither are you, and yet you cling so tightly to your delusion that you actually believe you have the ultimate truth.”

*****opps, there you go again clinging ever so tightly to your belief in atheism and assuming that mine is delusion at the same time passively claiming to know the truth or having deity.  You cannot assume that my “belief” is delusional without inferring that yours is not by default.  Come on now, Annie, been there done that before.  smile)

“In essence, you raise yourself up to be the ultimate authority on Truth.”

*****:)) hellooooooo, pot calling the kettle black, not allowed here.  tisk tisk…

“You fancy yourself to be a deity..to be this god you believe in, or to at least be his representative of ultimate truth.”

*****Never said this….you are assuming and making things up.  tisk tisk…“ain’t dis fun”....yahooooo.

The swine flu vaccination does not work.  It is designed to kill….fact.  It is designed to weaken the immune system when they release a more powerful strain.  The swine flu now, is designed to scare people and at the same time allow the government to set up a law that the vaccination is required since many didn’t not take the flu offered this past year.  The Illuminati will see to it that Kissinger’s Depopulation plan of NSSM 200 is carried out and that the world order will take place once the US is taken out and reduced to the North American Union.  Its a very skillful use of the principle called the Helgelian Dialectic….they use Depressions, wars, fears etc to force people to do their bidding…....

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By Annie Reitano, April 27, 2009 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

That’s not proof, Tom.  That is your set of beliefs.  Just read Shenonymous’ post again and again.  It is full of reason and logic—something that the fanciful stories of unicorns dancing and seas parting do NOT hold. 

Everything you wrote to me is complete, dogmatic rhetoric.  How ironic that you would say that my skepticsm is “atheist rhetoric”.  Atheism is a LACK of a belief.  I don’t need rhetoric for my stance. Only reason, logic and constant questioning. And I do it with care, but with great enthusiasm. Just “taking on faith what the preacher man said” isn’t good enough for me.  Neither is anything a bronze-age bigot wrote. However, it is enough to say that repetition is definitely required for you to step into reality where there is not only zero proof of what you’ve just claimed as the truth, but there is no evidence whatsoever.  So, you must take it on some dimensional “faith”...yet you clearly don’t need faith anymore.

Again, you saying something is true, does not make it true anymore than a Muslim coming here and preaching to you about Islam.  OF course you would refute it, but they would claim it is the truth—just like you!!! Classic strawman argument and one I don’t really even contend. God and Allah are the same imaginary being. Muhammad actually has more historicity than Jesus, so go figure.

There goes Pascal’s Wager…

I am not a deity, Tom; that’s true.  But neither are you, and yet you cling so tightly to your delusion that you actually believe you have the ultimate truth.  In essence, you raise yourself up to be the ultimate authority on Truth.  You fancy yourself to be a deity..to be this god you believe in, or to at least be his representative of ultimate truth.  It’s rather galling in light of the fact that you don’t even require faith for your beliefs anymore.  “you have given the truth”.  Huh.  Thank you, Buddha on the mountain top. :D   You can flush your Bible now, because you have knowledge to share with all to see.  Again, it is clear that you don’t need faith anymore.  Which is interesting since it’s a requirement for all that you stand for.  You are no different than Islamic fundamentalists.  You just believe that your imaginary friend is different.

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By tgambill, April 27, 2009 at 6:22 am Link to this comment

Proof, right now while we are writing all this, the swine flu, designed by the U.S. to start the pandemic as I said a long time ago is designed to kill but also the media is coordinated worldwide to embellish it in order to declare a pandemic soon.  This order will require citizens to get the vacc. or be in violation of laws.  The swine flu vacc will be designed to kill millions in order for the Illuminati to fulfill their goal of reducing the worlds population down to 500,000,000.  Now, this is only the beginning as the pirate and drug war are all examples of their using the principle of Helgelian Dialectic.  More to come in short time to bring on the World Order.  We are only seeing the scratch…..of the surface

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By Shenonymous, April 27, 2009 at 6:14 am Link to this comment

christian96 is betting on pascal’s wager and choosing to believe because if it turns out that there is a god, in believing you would be rewarded with eternal happiness by living a religious life.  but on the other hand, if god is the benevolent and forgiving god, and that is the only way that god could be, if there was a god, then living the most debauched life would mean having the time of your life and be forgiven and get into valhalla anyway.  which is more of a maximum gain than pascal’s bet.  we can call that lilith’s wager.

Do see how absurd our dialogue can get.

“As far as Shenonymous not having any more proof than the religious regarding the afterlife, that may be true.”

Since dealt with by both Annie and tgambill, I have a few words to add about the nature of proof.  In spite of the belief that some hold regarding value judgments, many religious believers still view religion as a matter of factual belief.  The acceptance of written words as literal truth is foolish.  For instance, tgambill, your view of the earth as not being alive is ill-considered.  Of course it is composed of mineral rock, but also organic materials exist because of the conditions conducive to life is a big part.

Proving anything is an iffy thing even “factual” information and especially “factual” beliefs.  Nevertheless, since I am a skeptic of religion, and by extension religious beliefs, then any discussion of an afterlife as held by any religion is suspect in my view of being a fiction.  Therefore, it is up to those who declare any kind of status after death to “prove” their claim.  Otherwise there is no reason for me to change my skepticism.

On the nature of proof:  I don’t really expect anyone to prove anything absolutely definitive since proof is a subset of knowledge, or episteme, and nothing can ever be absolutely proved, so it is said.  Do try to prove anything, anything at all.  My position, or yours.  Even scientists say their conclusions are open-ended.  For practical purposes, most who do accept certain beliefs as true, are actuality taking what they consider a set of ideas and holding them as true without any proof.  In the absolute there is no such things as absolute proof.  My solution is to say that within closed systems, where the limits are defined, proofs may be generated that support the beliefs of the contained system.  Truth becomes a matter of checking to see if things cohere to the rules.  This is not because these beliefs are true in the abstract sense external to the closed system, and apply to everyone, but are only true within the closed system because those who exist within that closed system have made the rules for belief. 

Truth in the abstract is a paradigm and is not a palpable entity, just as any model is merely the best nth degree of the thing it epitomizes.  All beliefs that adhere to those rules within a limited system are true.  Problems arise when one closed system intends to force the conditions of their closed system on to others that are separate and different.  The validity of proof then becomes a matter of quantity, not quality.  How many provisional facts support other facts of the beliefs. 

Belief is a very complicated animal and one that ought to be taken up as a serious topic of discussion on this forum and appraised, verified, or checked for accuracy, authenticity, validity, etc.  Belief is what impels everything, even getting up in the morning and believing there is a floor there for you to put your feet on.

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By tgambill, April 27, 2009 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

“So, what you’re saying is; Jesus died for everyone as long as they BELIEVE he died for them.  Huh.  I could think of a better way to save the world, and I am not a deity.”

*****You said, “I am not a deity”...exactly my point and well said.  Finally you are getting it.  So, once you create your first creation, then let me know. 

“I never saw the holes in his hands nor his resurrection, either.”

****Yes, but you will and then will be the White Throne of Judgment and it will be too late.

“So why should I believe them over..say..Al Gore?  I don’t.  You say Gore has an agenda.  I say that Bible writers, and re-writers absolutely and most definitely had an agenda…still do.  Money and power.  The two ideas of government and religion are not mutually exclusive.”

*****Agreed.  Religion is being used by the Illuminati to mislead and lead away from the truth.  This includes the Charasmatic and prosperity movement, Roman Catholic dogma, and the established false religions.  God didn’t bring religion to man, man designed religion as inspired by Satan.  God inspired the King James Bible and no more…...as transated by scribes and written by eyewitnesses during the OT nad NT times.


“That was your statement—right before you claimed that Jesus was God who came down to die for ALL MANKIND.  Are you saying that Jesus didn’t know everything?  And where do you get this “dimensional stuff?”  It’s just more mish-mash.  It’s nothing more of another version of someone’s “truth”.  In this case, your truth.  It doesn’t make it true.”

******Jesus, God in human form does not have the dimensional capacity of God.  Dimensional stuff, look up the 11 dimensions that we know of, they are confirmed and this is only the dimensions we as humans can identify.  its there….google it.  Do your research.


“So, all the plants and animals are dead?  I never said the Earth was a mother..but it is most certainly alive.”

****Mostly certainly not alive.  Its a big rock with a middle.  Plants and animals are alive and are not part of the rock.  They were created on the rock and by God, they are alive, Earth is not.

“You’re saying he didn’t get it right the first time?  What makes you think he won’t allow tempting snakes that talk into the NEW place that will finally be perfect?”

****No, you are saying or thinking this.  He tells us what he will do.  You have only made up hypotheicals and unknowns.  We have certainity. 


“It’s a shame he was such a blunderer the first time.  Just look at the death and destruction the almighty great one has caused.

****come again???  The death and destruction has been caused by man disobeying God, and doing his own thing.  Man has caused the death and destruction.  In the OT, God punished in supernatual events, but man disobeyed God in those days.  Now, its man causing the death and destruction. 

*****You can call the shots for your belief.  We have called the shots and now see where it has got us.  Good point.  we have been calling the shots to create failure and judgment. 

the rest is atheistic rhetoric and not necessary to debunk or comment.  As I’ve stated to you the truth.  You call the shots in your own life and your eternity.

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By Annie Reitano, April 27, 2009 at 12:17 am Link to this comment

“******None of the above.  With your extensive “missonary experience” I would think you would know this.  He died for everyone, but the requirement is for everyone to repent and sin no more,and those that accept Jesus as savior.  All others will be lost until that happens.  Jesus knew that they would accept his “story” once they saw his resurrection and the holes in his hands.”

So, what you’re saying is; Jesus died for everyone as long as they BELIEVE he died for them.  Huh.  I could think of a better way to save the world, and I am not a deity.  I never saw the holes in his hands nor his resurrection, either.  So why should I believe them over..say..Al Gore?  I don’t.  You say Gore has an agenda.  I say that Bible writers, and re-writers absolutely and most definitely had an agenda…still do.  Money and power.  The two ideas of government and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Tom: “The Bible clearly states that no one knows the day or the hour, not even the son.”

That was your statement—right before you claimed that Jesus was God who came down to die for ALL MANKIND.  Are you saying that Jesus didn’t know everything?  And where do you get this “dimensional stuff?”  It’s just more mish-mash.  It’s nothing more of another version of someone’s “truth”.  In this case, your truth.  It doesn’t make it true.


“The Earth is made of non-living material that is a composite of elements and natural laws.’

So, all the plants and animals are dead?  I never said the Earth was a mother..but it is most certainly alive.

“yes, and that is why or one of the reasons why God will destroy the Earth by fire and then rebuild it like it was once before.”

You’re saying he didn’t get it right the first time?  What makes you think he won’t allow tempting snakes that talk into the NEW place that will finally be perfect?  It’s a shame he was such a blunderer the first time.  Just look at the death and destruction the almighty great one has caused.

No matter how you slice it, Tom, there is no reasoning or logic in anything you’ve said.  Absolutely none that is comprehensible to sentients.  It’s all supernatural bullshit.  If God didn’t want us to comprehend him, then why bother?  I don’t.  That is why I think Jesus is a myth.  The story is chock full of holes.

And as for us not calling the shots; how do you explain the free will concept?  Looks like we called the shots. God had to become human through raping a Jewish girl (who would have been stoned for such
a thing) just so he could die and get things perfect the second time so long as someone believes his story that he wrote through the hands of primitive desert dwellers with an agenda.  Huh.  And I thought you were smart. wink

Dimensions are in your head—not the Bible. And even if they WERE in the Bible?  So what?  The book is a bunch of myths stacked together.  You can make a million little “truths” out of it…and many people have.  It is bunk!!!  Talking snakes, burning bushes that don’t really burn, seas that part and then bury the enemies (oh the irony that it was the Egyptians and NOT the Jews), unicorns that dance…. people rising from the dead, etc.

What else would you believe?  Just about anything.

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By tgambill, April 26, 2009 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

****The elect are the ones that claim to be Christian leaders and responsible for the preaching of the truth.  They are not teaching the truth and they will be deceived because they have not loved truth. 

“I thought Jesus died for everyone.  Apparently there are a few that he either didn’t die for, or he knew that his dying was in vain as many would not accept his story (as written through several men of the desert).”

******None of the above.  With your extensive “missonary experience” I would think you would know this.  He died for everyone, but the requirement is for everyone to repent and sin no more,and those that accept Jesus as savior.  All others will be lost until that happens.  Jesus knew that they would accept his “story” once they saw his resurrection and the holes in his hands.


“I also wonder about the day and the hour.  Why couldn’t Jesus have answered his disciples by saying something like, “look, I cannot tell you the day nor hour because many places will have different days (Australia and the U.S.—neither mentioned in the Bible), and different hours.”  It would make the story a bit easier to believe making his death a lot less of a faux pas.”

*****This is not germain to the conversation. The Bible clearly states that no one knows the day or the hour, not even the son.  YOu cannot put parameters around God nor can you out guess him.  Jesus answered the disciples the way he wanted.  We can’t outguess and put think otherwise.  Why didn’t he do this or that does not count.  He is a multi-dimensional person with way more than the average human with four dimenions.

“What does that say about a loving God?  Please don’t say that he’s “just”.”

****He is a just God and took his own punishment in the form of Jesus Christ and all we have to do is repent of the sins that he set up whether we like it or not, he is the creator not us.

“There is no justice in sacrificing a son for the world, just so you can destroy the world when you knew this would all take place ahead of time because—afterall, you’re omnibenevolent and omiscient.’

****sorry Annie, he establishes what is just and what is not.  We have NOTHING to say about it as we are the creation not the creator.  He knew about it ahead of time and was prepared to die for it and be RAISED FROM THE DEAD in order that we might live. 

“And please don’t speak to me on dimensions.  Jesus spoke (or supposedly spoke) in this world..in THIS dimension.”

*****To not speak of dimensions is like speaking about cars and not being allowed to speak about fuel.  I will speak dimensions, as this is the truth.  Jesus came from his high position with God to become one of us lowly Humans.  He still has the multi-dimensions and that won’t change.

“There is no reverence there.”

****Sorry, you don’t call the shots. 

“As far as global warming…I have only my viewpoint, and much like Al Gore, no proof.”

*****I know, and in fact Global warming is designed to control, form taxes, fear monger, and set up for the world government. 

“The Earth is a living and “breathing” lifeforce.”

***No way.  The Earth is made of non-living material that is a composite of elements and natural laws.  The living lifeforce is another NEW AGE Concept and in fact there is no evidence that the Earth is a Mother.  smile)  This concept can only be declared by theory not fact. 

“And through our need for greed and fancy gadgetry for the sake of power over other peoples, we are destroying it.  All on our own.”

*****yes, and that is why or one of the reasons why God will destroy the Earth by fire and then rebuild it like it was once before.

“It is dying.  As for the sun?  It will burn out someday anyway.”

***Not at all…....our lives are temporary and will be made permanent when judgment comes.  We are the anomly and not the supernatural.  The Supernatural as we know it is the natural.

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By Annie Reitano, April 25, 2009 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

Just who are the “elect”?  The Catholics, Protestants, methodists?  I thought Jesus died for everyone.  Apparently there are a few that he either didn’t die for, or he knew that his dying was in vain as many would not accept his story (as written through several men of the desert).

I also wonder about the day and the hour.  Why couldn’t Jesus have answered his disciples by saying something like, “look, I cannot tell you the day nor hour because many places will have different days (Australia and the U.S.—neither mentioned in the Bible), and different hours.”  It would make the story a bit easier to believe making his death a lot less of a faux pas.

Tom:
“God has a handle on this and will orchestrate a tribulation that will be massive…..”

What does that say about a loving God?  Please don’t say that he’s “just”.  There is no justice in sacrificing a son for the world, just so you can destroy the world when you knew this would all take place ahead of time because—afterall, you’re omnibenevolent and omiscient.  And please don’t speak to me on dimensions.  Jesus spoke (or supposedly spoke) in this world..in THIS dimension.

There is no reverence there.

As far as global warming…I have only my viewpoint, and much like Al Gore, no proof.  The Earth is a living and “breathing” lifeforce.  And through our need for greed and fancy gadgetry for the sake of power over other peoples, we are destroying it.  All on our own.  It is dying.  As for the sun?  It will burn out someday anyway.

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By tgambill, April 23, 2009 at 6:10 am Link to this comment

Sheno, there is no global warming, however, the sun thing I was not aware of.  God has a handle on this and will orchestrate a tribulation that will be massive…..

In any case, global warming in its secular sense, is a hoax.  Gore is full of it…..

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By christian96, April 23, 2009 at 1:49 am Link to this comment

SHENONYMOUS——IN THE “SOLAR DIMMING” REFERENCE
BY CHARLES OSGOOD YOU MADE PLEASE NOTE THE SENTENCE
“THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE GLOBAL WARMING IS
IF WE HUMAN BEINGS COMPLETELY CHANGE OUR WAYS AND
OUR WAY OF LIFE.”  OF COURSE, MR. OSGOOD IS PROBABLY
MAKING REFERENCE TO THE PHYSICAL POLLUTION WE HUMANS
ARE COMMITTING BUT WHAT IF HE, UNDER THE INFLUENCE
OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, IS ALSO MAKING REFERENCE TO THE
SINS AGAINST THE HOLY BIBLE?  THE PROBLEM THERE THOUGH IS THE BIBLE TELLS US THE BIBLE SINS WILL
CONTINUE TO INTENSIFY UNTIL WE REACH THE POINT WHERE
MANKIND WILL WIPE ITSELF OFF THE EARTH BUT, THANKFULLY, THE BIBLE SAYS SAYS JESUS WILL RETURN
TO STOP IT, “FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION,
SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD
TO THIS TIME, NO, FOR EVER SHALL BE. AND EXCEPT THOSE
DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED, THERE SHOULD NO FLESH BE
SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT’S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE
SHORTENED.” (MATTHEW 24:21,22)  IT IS THEREFORE
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO BE AMONG “THE ELECT’S SAKE.”
WHY DOESN’T JESUS RETURN NOW AND PUT AN END TO THE
MESS ON THE EARTH?  “THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING
HIS PROMISE(TO RETURN), AS SOME PEOPLE COUNT SLACKNESS; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH(HIS LOVE FOR US),
BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.”(2ND PETER 3:9)

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By Shenonymous, April 22, 2009 at 11:40 pm Link to this comment

Hey tgambill.  No real time to spend here right now, more later. But did you hear the sun is dimming!  First time that has happened in eons and no apparent reason. No fooling.  Check it out on some astronomy site.  It might be the sign you are looking for.  Or from Charles Osgood
http://www.westwoodone.com/pg/jsp/osgood/transcript.jsp?pid=26416

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By tgambill, April 22, 2009 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment

“I am not sure what you mean by a “loop closing”.  Maybe you could explain.”

*****  “loop is closing”....smile) I had to revisit the sentence and figure out what I meant.  lol…I mean that the coming events are coming to fruition in a short time.  The CIA orchestrated Pirates in Somalia, the CIA link with the Drug cartels in Mexico and the MS-13 links in the US, ISI and CIA in pakistan, Mossad, the list goes on and on about their use of terrorism to foment the justification for the New World order.   

“Anyway, my point was about nurses who have to go to church on Sunday instead of take care of the sick.”

****Your point well taken and I wish I was with you that day to jump their skivey shorts about the wrong that they were doing.  I’m not always right and can’t judge them personally but they were and are dead wrong in their LACK of Human compassion and lack of knowledge of Jesus Christ. 

Matthew 23:23.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

“Jesus’ point was that ministering to the needs of a man who needed healing was just the kind of righteous act, issuing forth from righteous motives, that God was looking for from those who obeyed Him by obeying His Law. This act of love was not a violation of the Sabbath, even though it technically involved working on a day on which the Law forbade work. Rather, it was exactly the kind of loving act that obedience to the Law was meant to encourage.”

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cmadd01/healsabb.html

“Even Jesus taught to keep the Sabbath Holy.  And he preached in a temple.  What is the difference today other than the architecture?”

******Healing is not against the teaching of Jesus.

“I don’t see any difference.  Jesus spoke and taught from the Torah, and he upheld his “Father’s house”.  This is where slacker nurses get their “divine right” to refuse the sick.”

****They have no divine right to refuse the sick unless they are following a apostate Bible or false teaching.  I challenge any one of them to prove that refusing to heal the sick on the Sabbath is against the teaching of Jesus.  They can’t….......you are right, they are DEAD wrong.

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By Annie Reitano, April 22, 2009 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Tom,

I am not sure what you mean by a “loop closing”.  Maybe you could explain.

Anyway, my point was about nurses who have to go to church on Sunday instead of take care of the sick.  Even Jesus taught to keep the Sabbath Holy.  And he preached in a temple.  What is the difference today other than the architecture? 

I don’t see any difference.  Jesus spoke and taught from the Torah, and he upheld his “Father’s house”.  This is where slacker nurses get their “divine right” to refuse the sick.

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By tgambill, April 21, 2009 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

“If Jesus didn’t bring religion, why did he preach in the synogogues and then raise hell when the money changers were outside of the temple?  Sounds a lot like a ticked off preacher to me. “how dare you make my father’s house a den of thieves!”  That’s religion.”

****Annie, its not religion, its his true word and we call it religion, and then structure it to how we want to structure it, or shall we say customize it to make us comfortable in our own skin.  I have quoted Bertrand Russell more than once here, and even though ole Bertrand and I don’t agree, I will have to say, that he made a very “interesting” quote.  He said to the effect, “All Religions can be false, but; only one could be true”. 

smile) Oh, by the way you left out the vipers and other words he used.  The loop is closing.

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By Annie Reitano, April 21, 2009 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

Why shock of all shocks!!  I actually agree with you about the fakey fakes.  I have known people who live by the Abrahmic standards and are good people.

If Jesus didn’t bring religion, why did he preach in the synogogues and then raise hell when the money changers were outside of the temple?  Sounds a lot like a ticked off preacher to me. “how dare you make my father’s house a den of thieves!”  That’s religion.

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By tgambill, April 21, 2009 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

“If this is true, where are the xians?  Coming from an atheist’s viewpoint, xianity and Islam and Judaism are all ridiculous.  But the behaviour of their representatives is APALLING.’

*****Remember what I wrote some time ago taking up for both of you against that nutbag calling himself a Christian?  I told him that it was because of Christians like him that gave atheism credibility or words to the effect.  The Behavior, life styles and true beliefs of so called “Christians”, or evangelists that are held in high esteem is not only appalling but in reality they are led by Satan in this conspiracy and are named in the Bible during the last days.  The apostasy of the Church including the Pope who are apostates. 

“Who are the real xians, muslims and Jews? “

*****God didn’t bring religion to Earth.  He sent his only begotten son, God incarnate as man, Jesus brought salvation and redemption and truth and not religion.  Man has made religion, and inspired by Lucifer on which religion will be what.

“As far as Shenonymous not having any more proof than the religious regarding the afterlife, that may be true.”

*****shure enuf is true. 

“However, the atheist’s HAVE INDEED cornered the market on [wisdom] knowledge regarding such a place.  Science has all but thrown that last one percent to the dogs.”

****Science is understood by man, and this is limited due to man’s fourth dimensional capacity, which is very limited compared to the 5th + dimensional entities. 

“Is there a god?  I don’t know.  I can’t say that there is not one for an absolute fact.  But I do know that none of the “holy books” are factual or true in anyway—and that has been proven and exercised repeatedly through the knowledge of science.  So, do I believe there’s a god?  No.  That is what makes me an atheist.”

*****The Bible has never been discredited but only twisted with misunderstandings, disinformation and conspired twists to the truth.  The ONLY Bible that is the true word of God is the King James Version. there are even Baptist churches using the NEW King James Bible which I told a deacon last Sunday, had a bonified occult symbol on the cover…....true story.  He was a little taken back….smile)

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By Annie Reitano, April 21, 2009 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

tgambill,

“****They have lost sight and become self indulgent and self centered.”

If this is true, where are the xians?  Coming from an atheist’s viewpoint, xianity and Islam and Judaism are all ridiculous.  But the behaviour of their representatives is APALLING.

Who are the real xians, muslims and Jews?

As far as Shenonymous not having any more proof than the religious regarding the afterlife, that may be true.  However, the atheist’s HAVE INDEED cornered the market on [wisdom] knowledge regarding such a place.  Science has all but thrown that last one percent to the dogs.  Is there a god?  I don’t know.  I can’t say that there is not one for an absolute fact.  But I do know that none of the “holy books” are factual or true in anyway—and that has been proven and exercised repeatedly through the knowledge of science.  So, do I believe there’s a god?  No.  That is what makes me an atheist. 

Christian96
Not “an anti-christ” because I don’t even know what that means.  No one has ever defined that for me in terms of evidentiary facts either.

I am anti-christ because I do not believe in such a being.  But I am also an anti-allah, mohammed and Abraham, too.  So, if Islam is correct, we are all going to find out after death, and it won’t be pretty for any of us.  Just read the Qur’aan.  You think you have the truth.  But would you strap on a bomb and blow yourself up for your god?  THAT is faith.  The point is, you are not the only one who thinks he has the truth.

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By christian96, April 21, 2009 at 12:09 am Link to this comment

WHEN YOU ANTICHRIST DIE YOU WILL FIND OUT IF THERE
IS A LIFE AFTER DEATH. YOU BETTER PRAY(OOPS, WRONG
WORD FOR YOU ANTICHRIST) THAT THERE IS NO LIFE AFTER
DEATH BECAUSE IF THERE IS YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE NEXT
LIFE.  TALK ABOUT A “GAMBLE.” WOW! YOU BETTER THINK
ABOUT IT!  DO YOU REALLY THINK A GOD WHO CREATED
THE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO LET THE PEOPLE WHO SERVED
SELF, DENIED AND HATED OTHERS, LET OTHERS STARVE
TO DEATH, KILLED MILLIONS IN WARS FOR THE SPOILS
(MODERN DAY “MONEY”), GET BY WITH THEIR LIVES OF
UNHOLY SELFISH LUSTS?  BETTER THINK ABOUT THAT ONE!

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By tgambill, April 20, 2009 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

“The non-religious are generally much more moral than any xian or muslim that I have ever met—and I have met a few.  I have days where it’s so apalling that I fear if Jesus ever did return to earth, he would never stop throwing up in regard to his amazing representatives.”

****They have lost sight and become self indulgent and self centered. 

The apostasy of the church was and is predicted for the end times.  Billy Graham, Robert Sheuller, Copeland, Hagee, Hagin, Hinn, TD Jakes, and many more are 100% frauds.  Graham has always worked for the Illuminati and the Vatican, and like Osteen take millions to destruction when they accept the anti-christ as the last messiah.

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By tgambill, April 20, 2009 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment

“nothing happens after death, and you don’t need faith to believe in that, you just have to face the reality while alive!”

*****sheno, you know that you can’t say that cause you no more proof of that than you say we do that we have everlasting life.  Actually, Its only Atheist that believes as you do, and Atheist do not have the corner market on wisdom after death.  You demand evidence of Jesus, Life after death, etc..but you cannot provide any evidence, written or otherwise to support your statement that you consider as fact. 

“that is called delusional if you think so.

****Therefore, given this logic, no one human has the corner on the truth therefore, Humans in their own skin don’t have the capacity to understand the supernatural or the natural since humans can only come closest to understanding the natural. 

“millions of people coming back to life?”

****No, they never died in the first place.  Once you are born you have become eternal.  You choices on this earth decides where you will spend your life eternal. 

“the bible is a fiction of separate books written by people at various and times with great distances in between and thrown together by people who had a cause to bring specific persecuted or warred against tribes together.”

****Okay….then you are saying that atheism is inherited or are there separate books, articles, and Rhetoric written by other atheist to support their beliefs????  Now, that is really credible.  Oh, I know, Annie was a missionary, smile  well, many a missionary has lost faith.  Look at the Pope, he is a Mason, as is Billy Graham and Robert Shueller for starters.  Blue light specials, lol…..

“do show the 100% accuracy of biblical predictions, all of them or your 100% is also your fiction.”

*****Bible predicted and the events happened in every case…....if you are truely interested, you will search it out.

“humans do not live again after death and one ought not to worry about living after death but rather how one lives one’s life while alive.”

*****Not true.  Humans do not live again after death.  The human spirit that was in control of the human body will now live in a permanent body and will not die.  That is not human it is supernatual and divine. 

“spending so much solipsistic time worrying about some imagined life after death is a waste of one’s life.”

****Not spending more solipsistic time being concerned about one’s life after death will be a waste of one’s eternal life and where they will spend it.

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By Annie Reitano, April 20, 2009 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

It’s interesting that you made that last comment, Shenonymous.

This past weekend I was staffing nurses (or attempting to) for a hospice patient who was about to pass away due to renal failure among other things.  Every nurse said “no, I have to go to church”. 

I could help but laugh within myself.  Not a laugh of hilarity, rather of absolute amazement.

The non-religious are generally much more moral than any xian or muslim that I have ever met—and I have met a few.  I have days where it’s so apalling that I fear if Jesus ever did return to earth, he would never stop throwing up in regard to his amazing representatives.

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By Shenonymous, April 20, 2009 at 3:49 am Link to this comment

nothing happens after death, and you don’t need faith to believe in that, you just have to face the reality while alive!

use your life for some good or you’ve thrown it in the proverbial toilet. 

even if they tell you, it is laughable to think you can have any accurate information at all from another’s experience.

that is called delusional if you think so. 

millions of people coming back to life?

please give where these statistics come from.

it is a made up statistic thinking it supports your capitalized argument.

capitalizing does not impress anyone but the one capitalizing.

the bible is a fiction of separate books written by people at various and times with great distances in between and thrown together by people who had a cause to bring specific persecuted or warred against tribes together.

do show the 100% accuracy of biblical predictions, all of them or your 100% is also your fiction.

humans do not live again after death and one ought not to worry about living after death but rather how one lives one’s life while alive.

spending so much solipsistic time worrying about some imagined life after death is a waste of one’s life.

all ought to go help other people have a better life while alive than frittering it away on self-indulgences.

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By christian96, April 19, 2009 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment

KNOWLEDGE: HUMANS ARE BORN.  HUMANS HAVE INTERPRETATIONS OF EXPERIENCES WHILE ON EARTH.  HUMANS DIE.  HUMANS HAVE INTETPRETATIONS OF EXPERIENCES WHILE ON EARTH FROM WHICH THEY BASE
“FAITHS.”  WHEN AN EXPERIENCE OCCURS OFTEN THEY BASE
A “FAITH” IN THE HIGH PROBABILIY THAT IT WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN, I.E., THE EARTH REVOLVES TOWARD
THE SUN UNTIL WE SEE THE SUN AND THE EARTH REVOLVES
AWAY FROM THE SUN UNTIL WE NO LONGER SEE THE SUN.
SINCE THIS PROCESS HAS HAPPENED EVERY DAY OF OUR LIFE
WE DEVELOP THE “FAITH” IT WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN
UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE.  HUMANS DEVELOP THEIR “FAITHS”
ON INTERPRETATIONS OF EXPERIENCES HAPPENING TO THEMSELVES AND OTHERS, I.E., AN AIRPLANE CRASHES AND
OTHERS LIVE OR DIE.  SINCE HUMANS OBSERVE MILLIONS
OF PEOPLE GETTING ON AIRPLANES DAILY AND LIVING,
THEY DEVELOP THE INTERPREATION THAT THEY CAN GET ON
AN AIRPLANE AND LIVE(FAITH).  BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER
DEATH?  HUMANS DON’T HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCES OF
WHAT OCCURS AFTER DEATH SO THEY MUST LOOK TO THE
EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS.  HOWEVER, OTHERS DON’T HAVE
PERSONAL EXPERIENCES OF WHAT OCCURS AFTER DEATH OR
DO THEY?  BOOKS REPORT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LEGALLY
PRONOUNCED DEAD COMING BACK TO LIFE AND REPORTING
THE EXPERIENCES THEY HAD WHILE DEAD.  THE BEST
SELLING BOOK IN THE WORLD, THE BIBLE, REPORTS JESUS
COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD AND BEING SEEN BY 500 PEOPLE.  THE BIBLE HAS ALSO MADE MANY PREDICTIONS
OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ON EARTH AND SINCE ALL THE
PREDICTIONS CAME TRUE, HUMANS CAN BASE THEIR “FAITH”
ON A VERY HIGH PROBABILITY THAT JESUS LIVED, DIED,
AND LIVED AGAIN.  SINCE THE BIBLE HAS BEEN 100%
ACCURATE AT PREDICTING FUTURE EVENTS, HUMANS CAN BASE
THEIR “FAITH” ON WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT WHAT OCCURS AFTER DEATH.  HUMANS WILL LIVE AGAIN AFTER
DEATH BUT THE NATURE OF THAT ETERNAL EXISTENCE WILL
DEPEND UPON THE JUDGEMENT OF THE SUPREME COURT IN
HEAVEN.  THE JUDGEMENTS WILL BE MADE BASED ON THEIR
BEHAVIORS WHILE ON EARTH.  THE BIBLE TELLS US THAT
HUMANS WILL HAVE AN ADVOCATE(THE LAWYER), JESUS THE
CHRIST, AT THE JUDGMENT OF THE SUPREME COURT. DO YOU
WANT JESUS AS YOUR LAWYER?  THE CHOICE IS YOURS!

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By Shenonymous, April 19, 2009 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

I have been preoccupied with my working life, mundane things but demanded by home life, and a couple of other TD forums on which I became psychically invested.  One seems to be in the process of defuncting. (yes, I just made up that present participle.)  At any rate, the last time I posted here I argued that we needed to look at the idea of faith in order to continue with more common understanding and putting more time into our long-run discussion.  For much of what has been said here is based on faith that the believer or non-believer as well has a grasp of The Truth.

I am here not to proselytize any particular belief or non-belief system.  It is the results of thinking about it for a long time from which I have come to a conclusion of what faith is and how it operates in human psychology.  I am completely open to reasonable discussion.  Meaning as long as there is no ranting or calling names I would like to engage in dialogue if anyone has a different idea, or would like to add to what I’ve said.  Some of us can do that on this forum which is why I participate.  I am learning as well from others who do participate in that way.  I have come to have respect for a couple of the regular commenters and would welcome further interaction with them.

So as promised, here is my view on faith.  Having discussed this topic before on another forum long ago, I am reviving many of the ideas I put forth there with many edits in and edits out.  I will start with a definition of faith similar to Annie’s in order to set the path – I would say it is a firm belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Central to the conception about what faith is happens I believe between the extremes of believing-in something and believing-that something is a certain way. To have faith in something is to have trust in it: “I have faith you will get that job you applied for,” “the kite-flying club is putting their faith in the weatherman and decided to start the competition,” and so on.  However, faith does not necessarily imply knowledge and in fact often it has been said to be completely contrary to it.

If I say, for instance, “there has to be life on some other planet somewhere in the universe,” this is only a matter of opinion.  For it to “be” true, since we don’t have the equipment to check it out, we would have to wait for the technology that will make a test possible which could verify my belief.  Up to that time, it is only a degree of probability that my belief in something is true.  A belief in something is at it core not verifiable with factual information.

I think there is an imposing point that one is forced to have when it comes to faith in order to negotiate life however it may come.  The vital notion is faith in future existence at every second we recognize we are existing.  We are compelled to have faith that the future will transform into a now and that only the now actually exists at any one minute.  We live on that kind of faith the minute we awaken in the morning believing that the floor is still there on which we may place our feet.  At every step of the way during any day, we rely on faith that the “world” is still there and that we won’t be crashing into ditches or falling off its edge, or anything else.  In reality, we have faith it is the way we perceive it.  Were we not to have this kind of faith, we would be paralyzed, dead so to speak.  George Santayana called it “animal faith” or faith that our senses tell us truly that the world is there; the world has a real “thereness.”  The Truth functions, I think, as a paradigm, as a model against which all instants of truth we experience is measured.

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By Annie Reitano, April 9, 2009 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

“By tgambill, April 9 at 12:25 am #


“I could answer all the points but this answer is you will have to find truth when the tribulations come.  I could spend a few hours of research and going over all the manmade scientific reasoning and such but it would made no difference.”

Oh but please do, Tom!  It WOULD make a difference.  If you could refute all proven scientific data…it would make a HUGE difference.  You would likely get the Nobel Peace Prize, and get many a soul saved by Jesus!!

Please just give us your answers!!  I will love it!  Truly.  But make them more than just “I have given you the truth, xian96 (who barely knows the Bible) has given you the truth…”, etc.

All “evidence” of dogma is refutable, Tom.  The reason is because of just what Shenonymous and I were going to talk about.  Faith.  It takes faith to believe in dogma, while there are proofs and evidence (a much easier sell) to show science and it’s advancements; whioh, consequently, debunk the Bible in many areas.  I will quote a few later.

At work for now.  See ya!


Fiath:  A belief in that for which there is no evidence.

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By Annie Reitano, April 9, 2009 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

By christian96, April 8 at 11:24 pm #

Instead of using our intellectual capacities to figure out god and the universe???

Tell you what, I will leave the mediocrity to you.  You know, the little things like the whole “candy store” thing that should be taught by one’s own parents anyway.  Why don’t you stop allowing god to watch you masturbate?  YOU KNOW HE DOES!!!!  HIS EYE IS ON THE SPARROW!!!!

Saying it in caps, really doesn’t make it any less ridiculous, does it?

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

Modern life’s pressures may be hastening human evolution

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090408/sc_mcclatchy/3208192

lol….so now we will grow a third hand and maybe eyes in the back of our heads…...smile)  Imagine that, the exorist won’t have to turn their heads around to see behind.  smile)

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment

Irrefutable quotes and evidence….however; the only evidence that many will take due to denial is the mushroom cloud and the planned death of millions.


http://endtimedeception.ning.com/forum/topics/new-world-order-quotes

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment

I could answer all the points but this answer is you will have to find truth when the tribulations come.  I could spend a few hours of research and going over all the manmade scientific reasoning and such but it would made no difference.  I have given you truth, xian96 has also given you truth, Shockly got his namesake from Shock and that’s about it.  I have 1,000 times more disgust from people like Shockly than any one atheist and rank people like him among Satan worshippers in drag.  God will take care of these types. 

I can’t judge or slam either one of you back for your beliefs because I am a sinner and cannot judge anyone.  Only through Jesus am I saved and its a daily struggle to not be convicted by the Holy Spirit when I slip.  Shockly and those that I’ve mentioned before will have a horrific eternity unless they repent of their lies and their subversion of the truth.

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By christian96, April 8, 2009 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Annie and Shenonymous——I just sat down and read
a couple of your comments.  Instead of spending
your intellectual capacities trying to figure out
God and the unvierse why don’t you do something
simple.  Go down to your local grocery store and
complain to the owner about the candy and other
junk they sell to children at the check-out counters?
Now when God sees you doing something positive and
simple as helping prevent children from becoming
obsese and unhealthy, he might give you a little
more insight into more complex things.  START SMALL!
If you will excuse me, I just came from Passover
services.  I know it is beyond your intellectual
capactities but tonight is the night Jesus spent
his last supper with those he loved dearly before
the Roman soldiers came to take him to be beaten
so badly he couldn’t be recognized.  Tomorrow is
the day he was put on the cross to die for us simple
minded Christians so that we could have the hope of
someday also overcoming death as he so lovingly
demonstrated.  If you find going to local grocery
store to help children to be below you maybe you
can use those intellectual capabilities to figure
out what is going to happen to you when the grim
reaper comes knocking on your door; AND HE WILL
COME KNOCKING!

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By Annie Reitano, April 8, 2009 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

I have no problem with pantheism.  After reading some of Einstein, I understand why he referred to the Universe as “God”.  It was his passion.  Thomas Paine was a Deist but was way ahead of his time.  I think this is all watered down atheism personally.  But, it’s the “personal God who speaks the Truth to me” type of gods that I do not care for.  The world would be better without these people; predominately the Abrahamic faiths.

You start the topic on faith.  I will love it. :D

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

If I may tweak what you said Annie just a tad, because for the most part the logic is impeccable. 

But first I ask, just to continue with the irreverent fun, a rather basic question with a little bit of thinking to go with it.  Maybe I am way off, but if I am, I can bet my last dollar someone will point it out royally. 

Does it matter if the item of interest is called God… or universe?  Say we take the word God and replace it with the word universe.  Then how much more palatable would that be that everything in the universe was created from events and forces in that place?  God is supposedly a Who.  We are just trading a Who for a WhereHowWhenWhat.  Associated with the Who (that is, God) is associated the question of Why?  But that question could also be asked of Universe, which I will now capitalize since it has ascended to be equal to God and has equal power.  Of course we don’t have organized groups (religions) going around worshipping the Universe, but we could say that the group of scientists who investigate that Sacred Place (i.e., The Universe), has built many towers of supplication to that lofty Place.  Institutions of science are probably as many as there are churches for religions in the name of God.  I am just showing that there is a parallel.  There are also just as many kookie scientist as there are, in tgambill’s words, The Christians on this Blog or article are full of bunk.  Shockly is paving the way for Satan to come on the scene in the form of the Anti-christ.  Ministers and preachers, Popes, priests et al, who know the Bible and distort the truth will have a special place in Hell per God’s own words that will be worse than any place a murderer or rapist will end up that has not come to repentence with Jesus.

So we trade one belief system for another.  So what is the difference?  Well I think you covered it with the notion of evidence and I covered it with the notion of justified belief, although I think we both covered both.  Tom wants to attribute his Truth to faith.  But it really is just his truth with a small letter t because we and many others claim our view is the truth as well.  So The Truth may or may not be covered by either of us but we have stacks and stacks of evidence in our institutions where there is no evidence in the institutions of religion (the churches).  There probably aren’t millions of scientists but surely there have been hundreds of thousands.  Maybe there have been that many in the priestly class as well.  So we each have our soldiers.  One accumulates material evidence that can be experienced in the here and now, where the other only accumulates money in the tithing plate to build more and more churches in which to further their immutable dogmas.  The thing is as I think you have already stated.  Science is always open to revision.  Religions are not.  The Catholics do offer some cosmetic changes, but basically they have not changed since Peter established that travel agency to some nonexistent paradise.  I like the way you asked about God’s physicality in the Garden.  I’ve always wondered if God breathes and if so, why and if so would it necessarily be oxygen or could he breath carbon dioxide like trees and other plants.  A real curiosity.  Thank you for a most illuminating (not Illuminati) excursion through logic.

If I may be so bold, I think we need to talk about this thing called faith.  I will do some thinking on it for my next time visiting.

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By Annie Reitano, April 8, 2009 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment

Tom:

“******Sure, nature created itself from nothing.  nothing created nothing….now that makes a lot of sense.”

Sure, God created himself from nothing—or rather he just “always was”....makes perfect sense. 8P.  And since we were formed in his image, it’s hard to understand why he would need feet to walk after Adam in the garden Eden, and nostrils since he hadn’t invented air yet.  But I digress.

Your statement is a common one amongst the faithful.  It is not hard to answer logically nor scientifically.  And while science is not a perfect proof either, it certainly provides evidence that the Bible is not only erroneous, but it also debunks much if it’s myth.  You avoided abiogenesis as it really is…submitting that life came from nothing.  That is not the scientific viewpoint.  But if you don’t have an answer “the god of the gaps” has been invented (and, of course, reinvented).

Many religious believers use the existence of DNA as a proof for God’s existence. The logic goes something like this:

“DNA is information. The amount of information encapsulated in a single strand of human DNA would fill 400 volumes the size of an Encyclopedia Britanica, and this information contains an exact blueprint for creating a human being. This information did not write itself. The creation of information requires intelligence. The creation of an encyclopedia requires an author - a creator. God is the creator of the information in DNA.”

However, there is no “creator” for DNA. The creator is evolution. No intelligence is required to encode DNA. Instead, the information in DNA is the result of natural selection acting upon random mutations, rather than the actions of a “being” like a God.

The fact is that there are millions of scientists who have assembled entire libraries full of information showing that evolution is where all the species on earth came from. Thousands of clergy members have even signed a letter stating their belief in all of this scientific evidence.

Does this prove that God is imaginary? As in I said previously science is not exact and the answer is “no.” However, many believers use the existence of DNA as “indisputable” evidence that God must exist. We can scientifically and irrefutably show that nature, rather than any “god”, created all of the information encoded in DNA.

That’s evidentiary—it’s not made up stories from 6000 year old story tellers.  It is scientific discovery from this very day…and it’s growing.  Of course, you will think the Illuminati is doing this, however, the ever elusive Illuminati alludes me. :D

Here is another way to understand the impossibility of God. If you look at the definition of God, you can see that he is defined as the “originator and ruler of the universe”. Why does the universe need an originator—a creator? Because, according to religious logic, the universe cannot exist unless it has a creator. A believer will say, “nothing can exist unless it is created.” However, that satement immediately constructs a contradiction, because we must then wonder who created God. For a believer the answer to that is simple—“God is the one thing that does not need a creator. God is timeless and has always existed.” How can it be that the everything MUST have a creator, while God must NOT? The contradiction in the definition of God is palpable.

As soon as your think about the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient being, you realize the impossibility of the concept. That impossibility is yet another way to see that God is imaginary.

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

Errata:  sorry for the typo but I want to be clear:
I wrote:  Energy is always conserved, it can be changed form one for to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. 
It should be:
Energy is always conserved, it can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

tgam: The Universe is matter that is not alive.  The non-living matter cannot design itself in such a perfect union and forge the exact forces necessary to create life from nothing.  Nature left to itself does not regenerate but it decays.  

To follow your logic, using your premises, if nature left to itself, only decays, then how do you explain your self’s appearance?  Do you have parents?  Did you have parents? 

The reason why I ask is not frivolous, but because I have deep questions about the nature of our existence, both material and mental.  I have actually put the following inquiry to a professional academic physicist.  I think answers received from both you and the physicist bear on the discussion we are having on this forum (and others about a similar topic).

The First Law of Thermodynamics states “Energy exists in many forms, such as heat, light, chemical energy, and electrical energy.  It is only through energy that change or work can be brought about.  Energy is always conserved, it can be changed form one for to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.  There is no loss of energy in any change that might occur.  However it can leave or enter a system thereby allowing the quantity within a system to be more or less.  Therefore, discrete things increase or decrease in themselves as closed systems, or are born and die from the more and less capacity of energy within that system.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that “in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state.”  Does this mean that closed systems uses up the energy it acquires by some means in some exchange or other?  If so, doesn’t that mean that the energy gets used up as it changes to some other form as it leaves that closed system?  And that closed system for all tense and purposes is a dead system unless the energy is replaced by some means or another, another exchange?  That is the description of the effects of entropy, isn’t that correct?  The exchange of energy is also called a dissipation that occurs as heat.  When entropy is complete, can it not be called a complete stasis, or complete equilibrium? And that complete equilibrium is a kind of death. Would it not be the case that any closed system that loses all its previously contained energy disappears, for wouldn’t its shell, casing, or containing character also be subject to entropy and hence be subject to lose its form of energy as well?  What I am stating is that is how material things come into and go out of existence and that some of these things are self-generating in a manner of speaking.

I think that there are physical and non-physical (body and mind) things in the Universe that can self generate.  I should like to know why you think not?  I look forward to your response.

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

“mythology.”

****Was designed by Satan for this exact reason to distort the truth.  However, it is highly likely that the mytholical creatures and Gods were Nephilim and Sons of God that are spoken of in Genesis 6:4 and will be returning. They are inter-dimensional and are the driving force behind the Illuminati making mankind thing they are aliens and they are no aliens at all.

Nature by itself cannot evolve, only mutate.  Mutations are imperfections and do not create a superior species.  No soul…?  sure, ever take a possum to diner or converse about the stars, physics, life in general, your bowling game with a Monkey?

“IF you think about this, what you will realise is that evolved beings have no souls.”

*****lol…really?  I just answered this.

God did create the first cell and in fact caused them to come together at his command and will.  An entity with 11 dimensions of time and space to our four dimensions in this universe can do those kind of things.


“abiogenesis. In the same way that there is no supernatural being involved in evolution, there is no supernatural being involved in abiogenesis. Both the creation of life and the evolution of species are completely natural processes.”

******Sure, nature created itself from nothing.  nothing created nothing….now that makes a lot of sense. 

“There is no “supreme being” in heaven who reached down to create life on Earth or human beings. Nor is that being answering prayers. There is no soul. There is no everlasting life. Science tells us all of these things with complete clarity. God is imaginary.”

*****Science is understood and created by fourth dimensional beings to fit their world of length, width, height and time.  We cannot go beyond those and therefore we create science to fit our world which is limited by the lack of man’s reasoning past four dimensions.  One monkey cannot design a rocket ship in the same way we cannot understand the true nature of the supernatual world and Gods existence.

“It is the way it is.  No conspiracy theories, no scary tales or bribes. It is just fact.”

****It is just fact?  lol…oh, ok, now I’m convinced.  Annie, they aren’t facts presented because you say so, it is an opinion and theory as they say, The Theory of Evolution….....hint hint hint…..they are all theories per the scientist and so called experts points of view which keep changing depending on the generation that comes up with a new twist…..or lies per the Illumianti’s control on the roundtable experts in the CFR or Rockefellers foundations…..these are the facts that have evidence.

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

nr 2

“I don’t have a belief in what ther is no evidence for,  and I think like so many things, that needs to be repeated to you.”

*****its all about faith. John 20:27-29—Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

“I have great DISbelief.  You have a delusion.”

****no, you have a great disbelief, not because I have a delusion, but because you have lost faith. Get it back Annie before its too late.

“I really think your problem, Tom, is based in your belief system.  There is misogyny in your tone when talking to women who are smarter than you are.  I don’t think you like a great debate with a female…but that’s just my guess.”

*****lol….I love to debate with anyone, no matter the gender.  Women who are smarter than me?  Okay, there is a nice cut.  smile)  now now, Annie, don’t ye provoke me naw.  smile)

“So much of what I said in my last post—-you ignored or played “dumb” about.  You knew damn well that I was talking about Ahraham being told to slaughter his son for the great all-knowing YHWH, and not about this Jesus.”

*****I’m talking about all of it.  Abraham we discussed already and fully.

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

Sheno, your post is correct in a secular way.  The Universe is matter that is not alive.  The non-living matter cannot design itself in such a perfect union and forge the exact forces necessary to create life from nothing.  Nature left to itself does not regenerate but it decays.  It does not produce order it is random but random not for good or bad or creation or death it is random and chaotic. But the main point is that a rock cannot produce life or even a tree…...molecules, atoms, and quarks and 8 more particles many of which we haven’t even discovered yet and won’t, don’t think on their own to form life, eyeballs, suns, fish, humans etc…..

Annie,

“you do not know the experation I feel over your self inflicted delusions.”

*****Oopppps there you go again, assuming that my assertions are the “self inflicted delusions” and not yours….lol…caught you!  Won’t work with me.  smile

“I have never felt hate or provocative over ANYTHING you’ve said.  I feel only incredulous.  I have told you that before.”

****I never said you did feel hate, you said it not me.  Incredulous?  if you feel that way, I hear an aspirin might work.  smile

“Nope.  Not good enough.  There you go again!!!  Preaching instead of giving evidence.  What is a soul?  Does it have a material existence?”

******No, it does not have material existence.  Its Gods way of giving your body its character, personality and that thing you can see throught the eyes….hence, “the eyes are mirrors to the soul”.  The spirit is the conduit to Gods spirit and the way to God to get through to us.  This is his, “modem”...lolol…nice term if I say so myself. 

“Why can’t I see it leaving the body when people die?”

*****uh, could it be that you aren’t God?  That could be one main reason. 

“If it isn’t material…what streets of gold will it walk on?  How will it bow to the King of Kings?  Did it always exist?  If so, where was my soul before I was born?  If it didn’t exist, then it is not eternal..and the Bible is a fallacy.”

****It it didn’t exist then God created it.  duh…

“To say that YOU have the truth is so tiring to hear from all the different xians who are even more diamtrically opposed than the two of us!”

******Its not just me with truth there are many of us that hold the key to truth through God’s Holy Word.  All people have to do is surrender to Jesus Christ and the truth will be revealed.  The Christians on this Blog or article are full of bunk.  Shockly is paving the way for Satan to come on the scene in the form of the Anti-christ.  Ministers and preachers, Popes, priests et al, who know the Bible and distort the truth will have a special place in Hell per God’s own words that will be worse than any place a murderer or rapist will end up that has not come to repentence with Jesus. 

“Anyway, these are the kinds of questions that plague me and so many atheists.”

*****Annie, they did me too for years and these questions plague all of us.  Lying Christians and those that subvert the word are worse than any…As a true Christian that belives in Jesus Christ I would rather be in the company of Atheist than be in the company of lying Christians who distort the true word of God like this Shockely, Shueller, Hinn, et al you know the names I mentioned.

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By tgambill, April 8, 2009 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

Global Elite picked Obama a long time ago…and this has everything to do with our conversation on here.

http://wingswatchman.org/WordPress/2009/03/16/global-elite-picked-obama/


Although Alex Jones works for the Illuminati as part of their fifth column strategy, this video is the true end game…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXMxqipa7sU

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By Annie Reitano, April 8, 2009 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

As for my evidence…Oh!  Contrare!  Science absolutely answers questions with evidence.  Please feel free to read up on abiogenesis.

The interesting thing to understand is that when you accept evolution, what you are automatically doing is rejecting the concept of a soul. Here is why: As soon as you accept that evolution is true, you also accept that the creation story in the Bible is false. It is pure mythology. The concept of the “soul”, which comes from the same book, is exactly the same sort of mythology.
Simply think through the logic. What the theory of evolution says is that every living thing on this planet has evolved through a completely natural process. Every species that we see today is derived from simple, single-cell organisms over the course of hundreds of millions of years. In other words, there was no supernatural creation process for humans as described in the Bible’s book of Genesis.

IF you think about this, what you will realise is that evolved beings have no souls. Human beings are no different from any other animal, insect, plant or bacteria in the way that we have evolved. In the same way that every other living thing on planet Earth is soul-less, humans are soul-less. The whole notion of a soul is a figment of human imagination.

This makes complete sense. The biochemistry of life powers evolution. That biochemistry is amazing and complex, but it is nothing more than a set of soul-less chemical reactions. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. There is no “soul” mixed in with the chemicals.

Where did the first cell come from? Many faithfuls will argue that God magically created the first living cell. This, of course, is silly. The scientific principle that describes the origin of life is called abiogenesis. In the same way that there is no supernatural being involved in evolution, there is no supernatural being involved in abiogenesis. Both the creation of life and the evolution of species are completely natural processes.

There is no “supreme being” in heaven who reached down to create life on Earth or human beings. Nor is that being answering prayers. There is no soul. There is no everlasting life. Science tells us all of these things with complete clarity. God is imaginary.
It is the way it is.  No conspiracy theories, no scary tales or bribes. It is just fact.

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By Annie Reitano, April 8, 2009 at 4:53 am Link to this comment

Good to see you Shenonymous.

Tom, since you cannot hear my tonal inflections, you do not know the experation I feel over your self inflicted delusions.  I have never felt hate or provocative over ANYTHING you’ve said.  I feel only incredulous.  I have told you that before.

“****The evidence is there, its your soul that you wager to lose.  I’ve dropped the truth and its up to you to find it.  Any evidence I present will be negated in one way or another and you know that already   This is why you ask for evidence so that you can twist it….not use it.  “

Nope.  Not good enough.  There you go again!!!  Preaching instead of giving evidence.  What is a soul?  Does it have a material existence?  Why can’t I see it leaving the body when people die?  If it isn’t material…what streets of gold will it walk on?  How will it bow to the King of Kings?  Did it always exist?  If so, where was my soul before I was born?  If it didn’t exist, then it is not eternal..and the Bible is a fallacy.  To say that YOU have the truth is so tiring to hear from all the different xians who are even more diamtrically opposed than the two of us! 

Anyway, these are the kinds of questions that plague me and so many atheists.  I don’t have a belief in what ther is no evidence for,  and I think like so many things, that needs to be repeated to you.  I have great DISbelief.  You have a delusion.  And that is my OPINION of which I am entitled.  I never said you were anything but “a smart man who daunts me with his meanderings about a god which you cannot possibly know exists”.

I really think your problem, Tom, is based in your belief system.  There is misogyny in your tone when talking to women who are smarter than you are.  I don’t think you like a great debate with a female…but that’s just my guess. wink

So much of what I said in my last post—-you ignored or played “dumb” about.  You knew damn well that I was talking about Ahraham being told to slaughter his son for the great all-knowing YHWH, and not about this Jesus.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2009 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment

We have to ask ourselves and no one else what is sound evidence and justified belief for the sloganized doctrines we carry around in our heads and are willing to exploit as reason to live.  It is up to ourselves to put everything to the test.  Mainly because it is ourselves that sloganizes them.  That is the worst danger since we believe ourselves.  The it becomes our own imperative to devise tests so that we cannot fool ourselves.  I believe that is what “slaying the Buddha” means.  I am not a Buddhist but there are some venerable self-censoring practices to be found there. 

The problem of faith has to do with the problem of the grand designer, God. And what is the origin of God.  If God always was why could not a Universe always have been?  The notions of the Universe which we can see and experience, is an alternative to the idea of God which we cannot see and experience, at least in any direct way, but are left with only faith as derived from religions.

Faith, I believe, grows from a fatalistic place that is hugely fearful. I beleive there is a psychological demand to understand the world and the experience it as firmly real, and as meaningful.  It is that search for meaning that incurs our anxieties that lead to invention of belief systems that can account for the enormity of it all.

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

“The belief that It Is All About God is an avoidance to solving the problem, it is, in effect, a wishing away.  The fooled believer, fooled by the infantile stories that now permeate their entire personality, knows that he is immortal, he will survive the carnage of The Judgment!  How does one get out of this conundrum?”

****By faith like the Bible says or go through the Tribulations.  My dear sheno, I can retort, call names, say you or annie is on drugs, etc…and so forth, and all that is going to do is cause the two of your to dig in and fire back.  Either intelligently or with insults in subtle ways or direct but it will solve nothing.  If anything, it will only strengthen your views because I allowed my carnal ways to interfere in discussion and logical sense.  I just plant a seed and move on.  Part one, now part II and the most important, is that…..

Evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. (2 Tim 3:13)

Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. (Mat 24:4, 5)

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. (Mat 24:24)

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. (Mark 13:22)

My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (Col 2:2-4)

Christians are being deceived by their very own church leaders, from Baptist preacher to the Pope. How can we as Christians judge Atheist harshly when our own house has rats and demons in it…...???? We can’t

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

your friend christian96 who claims to be a christian by his very name, resorts to the quite petty unchristian denigrating name-calling that reminds me of playground sniping of juveniles.

******Well he has allowed Annie to provoke him and you can’t say anyone is on drugs unless you do a drug test and confirm it. 

“You, Tom, are not the only one who has done research.  It is blatantly obvious Annie knows the Bible as well as you do, perhaps better.”

****Yes, she knows it from an atheist point of view in order not to study truth but to twist it in the same way the Vatican twists it, the same way that the Mormons twist it, and the same way that the New Age followers have and will twist it. 

“I too constantly do research especially for discussion on these forums.  Whether she, or I, agree or disagree with you or christian96 does not give any excuse for the small-minded name calling christian96 practices.”

****Agreed.  However, she does not have the right to call our beliefs delusional.  Not allowed.  She has a right to disagree but not judge it. 

“You and Annie argue for your own points of view which are diametrically opposed.”

******  lol…you tink….maybe they are?  smile

“So far it has been civil and well-mannered even when heated.  And as heated as it gets, I never see hateful anger, but a continuing of the argument, which in my view is the way it ought to be.”

*****Yes, but she can’t refer it as delusional et al and be neutral and provoking at the same time.  Let me call Atheist “delusional”, now, how does it fit?  see what I mean. 
“And that is one reason I have grown fond of both you and Annie.  You argue the way arguments ought to go.  And I will continue to visit and enjoy intellectually visiting the forum as long as this is the way it is.”

****I’m fond of you too….  smile  gosh, I’m blushing.  Actually, I’m just glad that we can still use it for now.  They are getting ready to shut it down when all the mud hits.

“She has asked for evidence.  What evidence do you offer?  As I have mentioned in an earlier post, merely stating something does not make it so. That is called performative utterances and declarations are not commandments.” 

****We are all in the same boat.  As she has no empirical evidence as well.  Also, the belief that God is the creator and Jesus is our savior is based on faith anyway.  However, archelogical evidence has confirmed much history in the Bible.  The steps of creation are scientifically sound and the odds of Moses getting the right sequence in order without any scientific background are astronomical.  The actual prophesies from the Old Testament to the new are clearly reported in later books of the Bible.  The list goes and goes.

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

“There you go again!  Where is your evidence??  You have none!!”

******Plenty of evidence.  Mexico is has been under Martial law since three weeks ago.  Reports of Chinese military in Mexico ignored by the news media, Every Mexican I’ve spoken to quietly, has confirmed the presence of Chinese and Russians in Mexico, Deployment of tens of thousands of Mexican troops being deployed to fight drug cartels????  sure…the signing of the North American Union several years ago, Viccente Fox admitting about the north American union and forming a union and the Amero, reports and confirmation of the reorganization of the US into 10 regions, each with five states formed since 1969 starting with Nixon, and finally put into an official FEMA manuel dated 2009, the existence of over 3,000 empty concentration camps built by halliburton that are ready to be filled, Millions of plastic coffins that are prepared for use in many high population areas, the building of mass grave sites in Az, in preparation for bodies to be placed…the list goes and goes.

“Where are your eyewitness accounts?  Where are their bones? Where are their original writings (supposing there were any)??  Supply me with enough evidence to say “hmmm…Tom may be right.”

****The evidence is there, its your soul that you wager to lose.  I’ve dropped the truth and its up to you to find it.  Any evidence I present will be negated in one way or another and you know that already   This is why you ask for evidence so that you can twist it….not use it. 

“This looks like it may be the real thing here.  Maybe I am being controlled by the Illuminati right now as some sort of trick by the devil so that I will not believe that the Biblical “eye-witness” accounts of YHWH are indeed the truth.”

******he shall send them great delusion…..etc…


“It must be right to ask your creation to kill their son through a testing type of temptation to appease god’s ego.”

****Not even close.  He didn’t kill him.  he gave Jesus as he will give us everlasting life in a new body.  No death here. 

“It must be good to drown the whole world…children and babies.  It must be right to choose one tribe of people of the other….hmmm.”

*****We choose to ignore the laws of God, the innocent and Godly are not of this world anyway.  The reality is not based on what we define it as…...

 


C’mon.  Supply me with EVIDENCE!!!!

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2009 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

tgambill – catching up and reading all the posts from my last post April 4, 11:50 am, what I see is that Annie has never called anyone any names, but your friend christian96 who claims to be a christian by his very name, resorts to the quite petty unchristian denigrating name-calling that reminds me of playground sniping of juveniles.  You, Tom, are not the only one who has done research.  It is blatantly obvious Annie knows the Bible as well as you do, perhaps better.  I too constantly do research especially for discussion on these forums.  Whether she, or I, agree or disagree with you or christian96 does not give any excuse for the small-minded name calling christian96 practices. 

You and Annie argue for your own points of view which are diametrically opposed.  So far it has been civil and well-mannered even when heated.  And as heated as it gets, I never see hateful anger, but a continuing of the argument, which in my view is the way it ought to be.  And that is one reason I have grown fond of both you and Annie.  You argue the way arguments ought to go.  And I will continue to visit and enjoy intellectually visiting the forum as long as this is the way it is.

The current debate over whose truth is The Truth is not solvable under the conditions being held.  You both are entrenched in your own opinions.  Nothing ultimately is provable, absolutely nothing, except perhaps self-contained systems of mathematics.  But views of ultimate reality only move when a profound understanding occurs.  Tom, you say you have truth, don’t need luck.  But Annie did not mention luck at all but really requested ‘providence Evidence’ for your claim about God, Jesus, Satan, etc.; providence meaning circumspect, careful; evidence, meaning confirmable material; put together, it means ‘carefully confirmed material.’  She has asked for evidence.  What evidence do you offer?  As I have mentioned in an earlier post, merely stating something does not make it so. That is called performative utterances and declarations are not commandments. 

It is my belief that to hold the view that “It,” meaning reality as you see it, “is all about God, Jesus, Satan, Iluminati and the end time prophesy…” is the kind of belief that causes self-renunciation. That variety of belief harbors a longing for a “better deal” that the one seen in this life, even if it is based on a pure fiction.  It is a determination to be blind and it has no limits.  Better to grasp the illusion of stories, fables, fictions, myths, or fairy tales than to see reality in all its naked cruelty than to accept the ultimate tragedy of one’s existence by trying to abolish death.  Or drag the whole world into a fictionalization of death so the loneliness of death is completely avoided.  The belief that It Is All About God is an avoidance to solving the problem, it is, in effect, a wishing away.  The fooled believer, fooled by the infantile stories that now permeate their entire personality, knows that he is immortal, he will survive the carnage of The Judgment!  How does one get out of this conundrum?

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By Annie Reitano, April 7, 2009 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

“You are making assumptions that your truth is not delusional and mine is so this is not being neutral. “

I do not have a truth in the manner that you’re speaking.  I do not believe in any gods.  That is not a delusion.  I am here and now telling you I do not believe in gods, monsters, angels, demons, fairies or leprechauns.  I understand there is a chance that they are real, but I do not believe it without full evidence and not just hearsay of folklore that has been repeatedly retold by wishers of such things.

You have the delusion.  I just state facts.  Again. Fact: I do not believe in the above creatures.  However, you do and you will die for one of them.  That is a deluded state.  If you don’t like it, too bad….that is the way it is.  Those are the facts which are backed by evidence.  People who blow up buildings for sky-daddies are delusional.  People who impale other people for not believing their truth are delusional.  People who say that reasonable people are delusional because they do NOT believe the above are also the deluded ones.  And that means you, Tom.

Don’t like my tone?  Too bad.  I STATE FACTS.  You deliver sermons of YOUR truth…not facts.

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By Annie Reitano, April 7, 2009 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

Its all about God, Jesus, Satan, Illuminati and the end time prophesy and there is no escaping it.  The Illuminati is real and soon they will kill millions.  The Mexican Army, Chinese and Russian along with UN troops will take over the US as allowed by our own government. and the CIA is using the MS-13 and LGF to start a crime wave soon.  A Gangster disciple revealed to me that they were approached to join this unmerry conspiracy and they turned them down because they are worshippers of satan….disciples are not.  ****You have eyewitness accounts.  Right now you are following classic Deceptive techniques for disinformation and this is your burden not mine.

Don’t need luck, just truth.”

There you go again!  Where is your evidence??  You have none!!  Where are your eyewitness accounts?  Where are their bones? Where are their original writings (supposing there were any)??  Supply me with enough evidence to say “hmmm…Tom may be right.  This looks like it may be the real thing here.  Maybe I am being controlled by the Illuminati right now as some sort of trick by the devil so that I will not believe that the Biblical “eye-witness” accounts of YHWH are indeed the truth. It must be right to ask your creation to kill their son through a testing type of temptation to appease god’s ego.  It must be good to drown the whole world…children and babies.  It must be right to choose one tribe of people of the other….hmmm.

C’mon.  Supply me with EVIDENCE!!!!

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

“I grow weary of you not addressing issues”

****Issues are addressed you fail to see or acknowledge them which is not my fault or worry.  All the questions and issues have been completely covered. 

“and then taking of on the illuminati—THEN saying I am on a tangent for answering your metaphor about YHWH and his band of jurors vs a judge and jury in a courthouse.  I will keep this really, really, simple.”

*****Its all about God, Jesus, Satan, Illuminati and the end time prophesy and there is no escaping it.  The Illuminati is real and soon they will kill millions.  The Mexican Army, Chinese and Russian along with UN troops will take over the US as allowed by our own government. and the CIA is using the MS-13 and LGF to start a crime wave soon.  A Gangster disciple revealed to me that they were approached to join this unmerry conspiracy and they turned them down because they are worshippers of satan….disciples are not. 


“Please providence EVIDENCE for your statements.  Not some “God told Abraham to tell me….” bullshit. :D Just give EVIDENCE for that statement.  Not hearsay…no no.  It’s different, Tom.  Give EVIDENCE.”

****You have eyewitness accounts.  Right now you are following classic Deceptive techniques for disinformation and this is your burden not mine.

Don’t need luck, just truth.

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

I have never come right out and accused you have being on drugs, alcohol or even being stupid.

*****True, but you throw the spicy digs.  I have never said that being an atheist is delusional or “in your own delusional manner” or “in your own misguided way”....etc….smile)  sorry, can’t have it both ways.  lol

“I don’t believe you are.  You just have your own delusional truth, just like many people.”

*****No, I have my truth, you have your truth, full stop.  You are making assumptions that your truth is not delusional and mine is so this is not being neutral.  You cannot classify my beliefs as delusional and yours not.  If so then you must say both are either delusional or both are truths.  However, even your hero, Bertrand Russell, said, “What I do know about religion is that all religions can be false, but only one can be true.”

“Only your’s is your own and is very different.
Also, reread the post and you will see that I was defining his xian mode.  Not a good one at all (common).”

******Many xtrians, react negatively to your spicey approach and digs I feel are designed to spark a reaction on purpose.  However, this is only a guess.


“I do NOT adhere to xianity…so I don’t run by the same rules.  Yet I see that I live a little closer to it’s adherent’s ideals than most adherents.”

Millions of Christians are being deceived by the Charasmatic movement, Christian Rock music, evangelicals that are funded by Illuminati like Billy Graham and always have been, Hinn, Copeland, Hagee, Hagin, Pat Robertson, Chopra or some weirdo, shueller who like Graham are 33rd degree masons and do the bidding of the Illuminati since they began their ministry….Osteen is a sure fire motivational speaker, and to make it appear he is preaching he throws a Christ here and there for appearance purposes but he departs radically from the truth….The Mega churches are all Illuminati and New Age just itching to join the anti-christ who will appear like christ soon

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By Annie Reitano, April 7, 2009 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

Oh boy!  I see you have another post of preaching.  Okay…

“******Yes, but the savior they have is dead.  Jesus is not.”

I grow weary of you not addressing issues, and then taking of on the illuminati—THEN saying I am on a tangent for answering your metaphor about YHWH and his band of jurors vs a judge and jury in a courthouse.  I will keep this really, really, simple.

Please providence EVIDENCE for your statements.  Not some “God told Abraham to tell me….” bullshit. :D Just give EVIDENCE for that statement.  Not hearsay…no no.  It’s different, Tom.  Give EVIDENCE.

Thank you and good luck. ;p

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By Annie Reitano, April 7, 2009 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Well, nanana boo boo, Tom.  You cut and dig in your way as well, and you know it.  I don’t mind a little spice.  I have admitted that I can get a little spicey.  (I know that admitting to something is alien to the xian way but try and follow)...

I have never come right out and accused you have being on drugs, alcohol or even being stupid.  I don’t believe you are.  You just have your own delusional truth, just like many people. Only your’s is your own and is very different.
Also, reread the post and you will see that I was defining his xian mode.  Not a good one at all (common).  I do NOT adhere to xianity…so I don’t run by the same rules.  Yet I see that I live a little closer to it’s adherent’s ideals than most adherents. 

Sorry again. ;P

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 5:12 am Link to this comment

“Everything is about shoving YOUR truth down the throats of others for the sake of being right…not righteous, no!  Right.

Preach on then, tgambill.  For I feel you are about to enlighten the whole world inside your head. :D”


*****Annie, in the same light that you have blamed Christian96 of being sarcastic, you also are the same but you do it in a “laid back” manner.  You do depart from the discussion with little cuts that borderline what you accuse Christian96 of doing.  Not allowed.  smile)

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By tgambill, April 7, 2009 at 2:53 am Link to this comment

“Did you ever notice how many murder cases go unsolved and/or a man or a woman condemned who did not do it?  Human foible..it will get you everytime.  It’s hard to say how many people are in prison right now for something they didn’t do.  It would also scare the bejesus out of us if we knew how many predators are on the loose.”

****You took off on a tangent.  Get back on the rules of evidence that convicts. These are eyewitnesses over a period of 1,600 years, 44 different eyewitnesses, and wrote 66 different testimonies that have withstood the test of time to remain the worlds most sought after book since 1611.  lol….I’d say that many a human read this one and many an atheist and Roman Catholic Priest/Pope and wolfves in sheeps clothing have tried to distort but have failed to do so.  Truth will prevail.

“Whaaaa??  Why do I discuss the writings of men from thousands of years ago with you as if they’re even close to being a judge or jury in today’s society?”

****Because over 25,000,000 ++ still hold true to this writings of men inspired by God rules.

I mean,...that’s not even a close analogy either, since any juror is “in the now”.  You are not”.

***** You keep saying just me.  lol…hardly, I’ve already answered the question about how many truthfinders that there are.

“So in truth…IN ALL TRUTH…you do not know what was truly written thousands of years ago.  You are NOT a witness of these writers.You are NOT a personal witness either.  This is ridiculous.”

*****Actually, I am a personal witness to the power of God as he has spoke to my soul in the same way and he does let you know that he interacts with you in this world in physical ways.  Relative to the writings if you knew the Bible or haven’t lost your faith you would know the power in the words of the Bible and the miracle of the Bible as its written.

“D Don’t you know that Islam believes they have Truth (Al-Haqq) on their side?  blah blah to the whole “I have the truth and you don’t” bit.”

******Yes, but the savior they have is dead.  Jesus is not.

“nd if you’re just getting warmed up-even though you NEVER answered the question about Abraham being “tempted” vs. “tested” (read it again, I gave you the definition), then you are beyond hope of ever knowing the truth because you won’t look further than your own meandering thoughts on the issue.  Which, btw, don’t even match most of your fellow xians.  None of you are in sync.  But you’re just getting warmed up?”

****Fellow Christians are being mislead by the New Age Movement, including the Baptist but their veil will be lifted soon and many will come to repentence and many will not including evangelicals that have strayed. 

“Alright, Dr. Falwell. :  But just so you know, as far as winning goes, I didn’t know we were in a contest.  I thought we were discussing.  That’s just one more problem with xians.  Everything is about shoving YOUR truth down the throats of others for the sake of being right…not righteous, no!  Right.”

****Annie, you are the one shoving, I’m the one sharing.  Again,  you don’t call the shots.  Everything is about shoving a Luciferians belief on Jesus believing Christians in many different directions as planned for by the Illuminati through the Masons, Vatican, and the charasmatic movement.  Even Billy Graham was funded by the Rockefeller foundation from the very beginning and if one looks as this teaching, its not Biblical by no stretch.  A very clever ruse.  Graham, Hinn, Hagee, Hagin, Shueller, Copeland, Robertson, Falwell, TD Jakes, Osteen; as the list is growing day by day are leading Christians down the wrong path and to destruction because many are Dr feelgood preaching, prosperity preaching, motivational speakers dressed a preachers, and are doing the work of Satan and not knowing it.

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By Annie Reitano, April 6, 2009 at 11:40 pm Link to this comment

“True, but in any murder case neither are the jurors or the Judge but they believe the eyewitness first hand.  Annie, you will never win…...I have truth on my side.”

Did you ever notice how many murder cases go unsolved and/or a man or a woman condemned who did not do it?  Human foible..it will get you everytime.  It’s hard to say how many people are in prison right now for something they didn’t do.  It would also scare the bejesus out of us if we knew how many predators are on the loose.

Whaaaa??  Why do I discuss the writings of men from thousands of years ago with you as if they’re even close to being a judge or jury in today’s society?  I mean,...that’s not even a close analogy either, since any juror is “in the now”.  You are not.  So in truth…IN ALL TRUTH…you do not know what was truly written thousands of years ago.  You are NOT a witness of these writers.You are NOT a personal witness either.  This is ridiculous. :D Don’t you know that Islam believes they have Truth (Al-Haqq) on their side?  blah blah to the whole “I have the truth and you don’t” bit.

And if you’re just getting warmed up-even though you NEVER answered the question about Abraham being “tempted” vs. “tested” (read it again, I gave you the definition), then you are beyond hope of ever knowing the truth because you won’t look further than your own meandering thoughts on the issue.  Which, btw, don’t even match most of your fellow xians.  None of you are in sync.  But you’re just getting warmed up? 

Alright, Dr. Falwell. :  But just so you know, as far as winning goes, I didn’t know we were in a contest.  I thought we were discussing.  That’s just one more problem with xians.  Everything is about shoving YOUR truth down the throats of others for the sake of being right…not righteous, no!  Right.

Preach on then, tgambill.  For I feel you are about to enlighten the whole world inside your head. :D

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By tgambill, April 6, 2009 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment

Annie, don’t leave now, I’m just getting warmed up.  We have much more to discuss about this issue. We’re on a roll.

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By tgambill, April 6, 2009 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

“Your beliefs are for the weak.  I know.  I used to be there.  There’s nothing more to say.”

*****the beliefs are obviously for the strong because who but the strong and faithful would rather accept death than switch.  All but one of the disciples died a cruel death proclaiming the truth about Jesus after he had risen from the grave.  This is has been the case ever since as people proclaim the truth about Jesus they are killed for that very reason.  That is not for the weak….....

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By tgambill, April 6, 2009 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

“I realise that you are stuck in a deluded bubble that matches what you wish for in life.”

*****Oh no, not at all.  There is no bubble.  The Bubble is what those that do not believe in Jesus and makes up their own beliefs as if they created the universe, or they want to make their own self religions, and those with charisma deceive others, the ones that are private fool themselves into their own universe, matches what they want in life.  It doesn’t work that way.  God created us, set up the rules and then we obey.  You see, have you ever thought about the difference of someone dying of cancer and someone not.  Both are dying, but the one that is dying of cancer knows when!  They can prepare for the eternal and often does by committing to Jesus Christ.  Facing death has that effect on most people.  The ones not dying are actually dying but they don’t know when and therefore don’t prepare.  Its permanent when you die.  You can’t go back to God and say, “God, I didn’t know can I get another chance?”  The answer will be NO…....

“But none of what you said addresses the contradiction of God knowing or not knowing what he was doing in “testing” or “tempting” Abraham.  You are doing nothing more than splitting hairs to match your own made truth.”

*****Everything I said did address the issue.  You are splitting hairs and diverting from the truth to avoid the discussion. 

“Exactly.  And you were not there”

******True, but in any murder case neither are the jurors or the Judge but they believe the eyewitness first hand.  Annie, you will never win…...I have truth on my side.  I have first hand eyewitness accounts that have given testimony in the King James Bible.  An eyewitness testimony.  You weren’t there when your parents were born, but someone was that told you they are your parents and using your own logic, how do you know that your parents are really your parents and you weren’t adopted.


“thus you are not an eyewitness for your own case.”

****I’m not, but eyewitnesses were and their testimony has never been disputed. 

“Therefore, it is not only hearsay on the part of primitive writers, but also on your part.”

******Eyewitness accounts are not hearsay. 

“It’s a grapevine of agendas, untruths and myths.”

******Now you are speaking about the New age Religions and other related religions. 


“Anyone with good cognition could see it.”

*****Apparently not…...

“You do not see it because you wish it to be so.”

*****lol…Okay Dr Laura, smile)  I see the truth because the Bible tells me so.  No other book has these truths.

“That is tragic as according to your dogma, Jesus will come back and many, many people will burn in a hell while you are rejoicing.  What a commentary.”

******These are your words not ours.  Our memories of the past life will be wiped away.  People will go to Hell because of their own choices. 

“…This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2: 3, 4

 

 

Your beliefs are for the weak.  I know.  I used to be there.  There’s nothing more to say.

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By Annie Reitano, April 6, 2009 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

Well, Christian96, that verse also mentions not drinking blood.  Besides, God commanded sacrificial animals for the eating.  Animals full of fat and blood.

What does Jesus say?  Eat and drink of my body and my blood.  I do believe he was referred to as the “sacrificial lamb.”

So, we have cannibalism and we have “don’t eat fat”.  I smell another contradiction.  I also recall “Yhwh” mentioning for us to NOT eat shellfish, too.

So much for Leviticus.  There’s all kinds of crazy stuff in that book.  But to stay on topic, there is nothing in the Bible that correlates with science as we know and understand it today.

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By christian96, April 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

Annie—-Science has discovered that eating “fat” is
bad for us.  God told us that in the Bible thousands
of years ago.(Leviticus 3:17)  SCIENCE SUPPORTING
THE BIBLE.

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By Annie Reitano, April 6, 2009 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment

Thanks for the post, Tom.

I realise that you are stuck in a deluded bubble that matches what you wish for in life.  But none of what you said addresses the contradiction of God knowing or not knowing what he was doing in “testing” or “tempting” Abraham.  You are doing nothing more than splitting hairs to match your own made truth.

“Eyewitnesses are the strongest case breakers.  Thanks for bringing this up.”

Exactly.  And you were not there, thus you are not an eyewitness for your own case.  Therefore, it is not only hearsay on the part of primitive writers, but also on your part.  It’s a grapevine of agendas, untruths and myths. Anyone with good cognition could see it.  You do not see it because you wish it to be so.  That is tragic as according to your dogma, Jesus will come back and many, many people will burn in a hell while you are rejoicing.  What a commentary.

Your beliefs are for the weak.  I know.  I used to be there.  There’s nothing more to say.

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By tgambill, April 6, 2009 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

“God “tested” Abraham? So God DID NOT know?”

*****I certainly have a cigar.  Annie, you don’t call the shots now….no no.  God did know, he tested Abraham to show in real life the faith of Abraham so that we would also know, because the stories are passed on and written for us today to know the character, will, and laws of God plus it sets the stage for the future to see the continuity of the Bible.  It was written by men that experienced the Actual presence and voice of the living God.  Eyewitnesses are the strongest case breakers.  Thanks for bringing this up. 

“Or was he deceptively testing him?”

*****Again, you can’t call the shots.  There were no deception, only a show of faith.  He had the faith that knowing the prophesy about his son, he had faith that God would raise him from the dead.  True story.  Look it up before answering, I don’t want to embarrass you. 

“If he did know, then it was deception.”

*****Not at all.  It was testing not deception as you brought this up before.  NOT TRUE AT ALL.


“If he did know what Abraham would do, it was also cruel.”

******Not cruel at all.  WE are ALL being tested as the tests show us our faith and it builds character to actually participate…..don’t even try, I’m light years ahead Annie. 

“If he did not know, then how is he all knowing?  You can splice it up all you want, but the fact remains, it was written by man FOR man…and not by a deity.”

*****IT was written by man, eyewitnesses, carried from generation to generation without one contradiction, but inspired by God into the human spirit to write or as they actually experienced it. 

“That is clear by the “testing” or “tempting” of Abraham to kill his son.”

****Not clear at all…...for those that do not know the truth of the Bible.  You being a missionary should know the basics. 

“Really?  What happened to the ten commandments and “thou shalt not kill?”  There is no adendum that states “unless you kill for me..love, God.”  Besides, that’s a very revealing statement you made regarding this wonderful God.”

*****No killing when if they are raised from the dead and if you continue to read God knew he would do it, God wanted us to know he would do it….and just at the right time, An Angel stopped him, and a ram was already prepared for sacrafice…..

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By Annie Reitano, April 6, 2009 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

tempt? ?/t?mpt/  –verb (used with object) 1. to entice or allure to do something often regarded as unwise, wrong, or immoral.
2. to attract, appeal strongly to, or invite: The offer tempts me. 
3. to render strongly disposed to do something: The book tempted me to read more on the subject. 
4. to put (someone) to the test in a venturesome way; provoke: to tempt one’s fate. 
5. Obsolete. to try or TEST.


Please take note on number five.

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By Annie Reitano, April 6, 2009 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

Christian96:

Because it doesn’t.  Stop with the ad hominems or our conversation is over.

Tom:

God “tested” Abraham? So God DID NOT know?  Or was he deceptively testing him?  If he did know, then it was deception.  If he did know what Abraham would do, it was also cruel.  If he did not know, then how is he all knowing?  You can splice it up all you want, but the fact remains, it was written by man FOR man…and not by a deity.  That is clear by the “testing” or “tempting” of Abraham to kill his son.

“Also, at this time, Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac would not have been sin, since no one had yet been commanded not to make human sacrifice to God. But God never gives us instructions which are contrary to His previously written word.”

Really?  What happened to the ten commandments and “thou shalt not kill?”  There is no adendum that states “unless you kill for me..love, God.”  Besides, that’s a very revealing statement you made regarding this wonderful God.

Nice try.  No cigar. wink

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By christian96, April 6, 2009 at 4:15 am Link to this comment

Annie—-If you weren’t under the influence of some
mind altering substance why would you make a comment
like, “Science doesn’t back ANY OF THE BIBLE?”

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By tgambill, April 5, 2009 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

When God told Abraham to kill Isaac, Abraham knew he was acting out prophecy. The relevant extracts are

Gen 22:1-14 KJV And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. [v. 2] And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

[v. 3] And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. [v. 4] Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

[v. 5] And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. [v. 6] And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

[v. 7] And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? [v. 8] And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

[v. 9] And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. [v. 10] And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

[v. 11] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. [v. 12] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

[v. 13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. [v. 14] And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

2Ch 3:1 Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Just as Abraham was to kill his only son Isaac whom he loved on Mt Moriah as a sacrificial burnt offering , Abraham knew that God would have to resurrect his son dead son Isaac since they were both going to return, and that it all started 3 days before, so God the Father was going to kill His Beloved Son Jesus Christ as a sacrifice on our behalf and resurrect Him 3 days later.

Annie, you must know the Bible and have faith that God does exist and that the Bible is truth.  You cannot twist truth except for those that do not possess true or have faith.  Truth is twisted for those that have lost faith and no longer trust in truth.  A preacher, priest, missionary, that have fallen away doesn’t mean that God does not exist and his word is not true, it means that the human has lost their faith and ultimately themselves and had better seek the truth before its too late.

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By tgambill, April 5, 2009 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

I will just start with this because I am tired.  I see a lot of problems with your post.’

***** lol….smile) imagine that.  I would have fallen out of my chair if you said anything contrary. 

“So, you are saying that tempting Abraham to kill his own son without really expecting this to take place is not wrong doing?”

*****He didn’t tempt Abraham, he tested Abrahams faith.  Abraham demonstrated to us in real life an example of real faith and not the plastic faith other Baptist or evangelicals claim to have but don’t.  He tested didn’t tempt.  Temptation is to lead to evil.  Abraham had faith that even if he killed his own son, that it would work out for the glory of God which it did. 

You fail to read the entire story which is what a spinner does, sorry to say, that gives the truth. 

God commands us to love him above all else.  Therefore, if left unchecked Abraham’s love for his child would’ve became greater than his love for God.

God had to command Abraham to do this in order to make Abraham realize that he needed to love God above all else even his own son which is the entire lesson of this story. Also, God knew that this would be written, and that we would read it, and that he would inspire generations later to write, John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

That was also the reason that God tested Abraham, and written for generations later to read.  The reason it had to be taken so far is because people have free will to choose to decide and when we become indecisive about something as human beings we sometimes must experience a traumatic event to become wholly decisive and unfaltering about our future judgments.

God literally spoke to Abraham in a way that Abraham knew for certain that it was God speaking rather than some indirect subtle sign or signal. The way we know that direction comes from God is by way of the Holy Spirit which was bestowed upon us, after Jesus died and was resurrected. We know it’s truth by following the will of God and doing everything we do with love. Its that simple.

Did not Isaac ask Abraham “Where is the Ram?” Abraham answered,“God will provide” Such was his relationship that he possibly expected that God was testing his obedience and it was only at the point he lifted the dagger that he had to confront the possibility that he may have to go through with it. We are told in God’s word, “He reckoned that God could resurrect Isaac from the dead”

Also, at this time, Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac would not have been sin, since no one had yet been commanded not to make human sacrifice to God. But God never gives us instructions which are contrary to His previously written word.

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By Annie Reitano, April 5, 2009 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

Hi tom,

I will just start with this because I am tired.  I see a lot of problems with your post. 

Tom: “JAMES 1:12-13,16-17 KJV First let’s define Temptation.  This would be a nice start.  “Temptation” is from the Greek noun peirasmos, which can refer to trials or tests with a beneficial purpose or effect—OR TO TRIALS OR TESTS DESIGNED TO LEAD TO WRONG DOING”.

So, you are saying that tempting Abraham to kill his own son without really expecting this to take place is not wrong doing?  Sorry.  It would not only be a LIE, but murder is wrong.  Asking anyone to murder someone even in this “illuminati governed” society is still punishable by prison.  It is wrong.  Even in Islam.

TOM: “In Genesis 22:1, God did not intend Abram to complete the sacrifice of his promised heir. However, Abram did not know that, and was willing to carry out God’s orders, knowing that if God did require this, He was able to raise Isaac up from the dead (Hebrews 11:17-19).”

Sorry, Tom.  God did the EXACT same thing that you are saying the book of James does NOT condone.

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By tgambill, April 5, 2009 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Knowing truth does not come from man it comes from God, and God inspired the truth contained in the King James version of the Bible, ONLY and no others.

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By tgambill, April 5, 2009 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

“My point was that you simply cannot deny the contradictions and explain them.  I will give you ONE MORE CHANCE…but I want an explanation, and not some tangent about the Iluminati, etc.”

****Annie, I can save you time then.  I will answer you with the truth as I have since the very day we started debating.  I have answered all your alleged contradictions and adequately.  The explanations were not to your approval but your approval does not determine the validity.  They were all valid and realistic explanations.  Now, the Illuminati will be used in every case that it is linked with the world events which are linked to the bible as the Illuminati is Satanically inspired as the discussion we are having is undeniability connected like hand and glove.

JAMES 1:12-13,16-17 KJV First let’s define Temptation.  This would be a nice start.  “Temptation” is from the Greek noun peirasmos, which can refer to trials or tests with a beneficial purpose or effect—or to trials or tests designed to lead to wrong doing. The outcome depends on how the tempted person reacts. Temptation of itself is not sin; one must accept it before it results in sin. Thus, it is a forerunner of sin, warning us that the potential for sin is not far away.  James says, in verse 16, “Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” This is a hint that what he has just said tells us something important about not being deceived. He has just told us that God never entices—tempts—us to accept His way by promising to satisfy our desires. Instead, we are enticed when our desires lead us to sin. God never tempts us to follow our physical desires for self-gratification.

In Genesis 22:1, God did not intend Abram to complete the sacrifice of his promised heir. However, Abram did not know that, and was willing to carry out God’s orders, knowing that if God did require this, He was able to raise Isaac up from the dead (Hebrews 11:17-19). This passage in Hebrews (written in Greek) is translated ‘Abram was “tried”’ instead of saying he was “tempted.” So we can conclude that the conclusion is that in Genesis 22:1, the Hebrew word translated “tempt” has to do with testing or evaluating something.

If you read James 1:3—“My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into various trials; Knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.”

The Greek word translated “trials” connotes trouble, or something that breaks up the pattern of peace, comfort, joy and happiness in someone’s life. As a matter of fact the verb form of this word means “to put someone or something to the test,” The purpose is to discover that person’s nature or that thing’s quality. God brings such tests to prove – and increase – the strength and quality of one’s faith and to demonstrate its strength.  So according to James, when we face temptations, God’s purpose for them is to prove our faith, and they produce character. That is a high, good, noble motive.

There are temptations which are designed to make us fail, but they do not come from God, instead they come from Satan (Matthew 4:1), his evil angels (Ephesians 6:12) or from ourselves (Romans 13:14; Galatians 5:13). God allows us to experience them and they are allowed for our benefit. God told Abram to offer Isaac—the temptation was not intended to get Abram to sin, but to test and prove his faith.  This is a big difference and shows that God does not tempt with evil but he allows evil to tempt, whereas God gives us tests that will strengthen our character. 

Your misunderstandings or attempts to revise scripture will never work.  Its impossible to produce deception from truth when one knows truth.

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By Annie Reitano, April 5, 2009 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

By tgambill, April 4 at 4:35 am #


Tom, I have no doubt that you have faith enough to die for your beliefs.  That is what faith is.  It is a belief in that for which there is no evidence.  So, I have no doubt that you would die before saying “Jesus is not God” in the same way I don’t doubt that Islam would take your head for making fun of Mohammed. 

My point was that you simply cannot deny the contradictions and explain them.  I will give you ONE MORE CHANCE…but I want an explanation, and not some tangent about the Iluminati, etc. 

Please explain how this is divine even though a few verbs were changed as you said to Shenonymous.

God tempts. Gen.22:1.
Satan tempts. 1 Cor.7:5.
God allows temptation. Job 1:8-12; Job 2:3-7.
God tempts no one. Jms.1:13.


Which is it?  Does he tempt?  If so, please explain the opposing verses.  DEBUNK ME.  Just do it!

Also, please remember that Martin Luther not only was an advocate of changing the Bible, but he helped pull it off.  As a matter of fact, he almost got away with taking the book of James out of the Bible as it states that without works faith is dead.  He lost on that one.

So, as Shenoymous clearly showed you, the Bible that you read now is not only based on translating and retranslating, but it is also built upon arguments….arguments that led to war.  The Reformation.

But please, just debunk the problems with God’s tempting habits.

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By Annie Reitano, April 5, 2009 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

By christian96, April 4 at 1:06 am #

Christian96,,
Since you’re intent on being so OFFENSIVE, I feel a deep need to DEFEND myself—even though it is none of your business.

I was a missionary for ten years, my friend.  And some habits don’t die.  For example, I do NOT drink alcohol, take drugs nor any mind altering substances.  Your answer to me was an ad hominem, and nothing more.  If you wish to address me in the future..then say something that is NOT insulting, but more befitting to your so-called xian beliefs.  You don’t carry them well at all.

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By christian96, April 4, 2009 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment

I just popped in to read the latest comments.  I
enjoy most of the post on this site because they
appear to come from reasonably people earnestly
seeking answers to questions we are all wrestlying
with.  IF YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR TIME ON PURE CHAOS
then read a few posts following “Troy Jollimore on
The God Debate.”  Good God Almighty, to quote the
Bible, “HOW THE HEATHEN RAGE!”  Right now I’m not
even close to even attempt to weigh in to rage
occuring on that site.  Maybe tomorrow.  I’m going
back to watching the boring basketball game on TV
or something a little more intellectually stimulating.  I’m not sure.  The comments on the
other site fried my brain.  Maybe I’ll go to bed
early tonight and read a good book.

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By tgambill, April 4, 2009 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

Sheno, there is no question or argument about who wrote the books as this is settled with exact authors save a few of the books but decided up by the careful consideration of the church.  The KJV was eventually put together by the divine inspiration of God as divine instead of by man’s deciding alone in short.

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By tgambill, April 4, 2009 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

“Do you believe the KJV Bible to be a carefully constructed written Holy Book?”

******the KJV of the Bible is a record of what has happened in the past literally, and the predictions or prophesy have come true all through the Bible to those that are coming true before our eyes even in modern times.  The written word does have tranlation errors of numbers and transcibed tenses but there are no contradictions of the main point or truth.  This only serves to show that the Bible was not solely contrived by man but that man later mistranslated a few tenses or verbs, no facts. 

The Bible is a record of how we have been created, what happened and what is going to happen that is actually taking place today…..

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By Shenonymous, April 4, 2009 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

tgambill, how could the Bible be “an actual account of the lives of the people”  named in it for they are not actually in it (your figure of speech) when the Tanakh, the Old Testament, has no evidence of who actually wrote the various books that were included.  I am purposely being fastidious since veracity hinges in being perfect in the word, The Word in this case.  We do not want to be sloppy in our discussion and rely on that bugaboo performative utterance, i.e., more simply put, if it is said, then it is true.  The Old Testament is what the Roman Catholics systematically collected together, at the Council of Trent and the First Council of Nicaea, that left out some books and included others over deep argument by the church fathers.  In similar action by those who decided, the Protestant Old Testament included books gradually collected over a period of several centuries and different sects argued as to which books were included and which were not.  Most settled on 27 books.  Some of the OT books were composed later than the original Hebrew Bible.  We cannot help but wonder why certain ones were in the gameplan and others out of it?  And how are we to determine if the councils who made decisions about books actually did so objectively or with an eye to their particular program.  Surely no God directed them since there was so much argument and surely any God-dictated literature would not need any argument.  There are various arrangements of books of the Old Testament as well in the several orthodox churches, Ethiopia and Somalian, each different, very curious.  Since the New Testament, the Christian Scriptures is a progeny of the Old Testament, it would seem to be holy important to decide on the primogenitured literature that guides the faith. 

When you say “the Bible is an actual account” you are speaking only from conjecture since there is no evidence who wrote the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament books were written decades after the accounts described.  Since that means nothing can be verified then actuality is impossible to “know.”

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By tgambill, April 4, 2009 at 1:35 am Link to this comment

you’ve already been stumped on the contradictions…many times.  Or you would have some clear cut reasons why they are in the Bible when questioned on them, and you wouldn’t have to veer off into conspiracy theories.

*****Annie, you have never stumped me on the alleged contradictions since the first day we have been writing.  NOT ONCE…..smile  I’ve given you clear cut reasons and facts.  The conspiracy theories are not even theories they are conspiracy facts that are irrefutable with historical facts, testimony, scholarily research and no one since the information has been made public has been able to refute.  The Illuminati has been explained with dates, months, and names….exactly.  As I said and you know that you have never presented an alleged contradiction from Atheist 101 that a factual and distinct answer was not given…not even one.  SHURE ENUF…...smile)

Annie, it is more than buying into this stuff.  I would literally without question or hesitation; and this may come to pass when the Chinese and Russians cross into the US soon…..would give his life to maintain my faith in Jesus Christ knowing that I will not die for the eternal state but I would physically…..AT the threat of Death I will never denounce Jesus Christ, literally. 


Shenonomous, the Bible is an actual account of the lives of the people in it that actually happened, the miracles happened and the promises that God gives are going to happen.

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By Shenonymous, April 4, 2009 at 12:13 am Link to this comment

Hi Tom, glad to see you here. And Annie.  Of course we are back at our old arguments and that is good, really.  It is healthy to discuss important topics of contention. 

You said, tgambill, “in reality there has been no contradictions proven but many have tried and many have attempted to take the Bible piece by piece and twist it in clever ways to make it into a lie.”  Okay.  I disagree.  and that is okay for inquiring minds to disagree.  I see that Annie gave you two clear examples of examples directly from the KJV Bible, no twisting employed, and that you two have been having grand discussion about them.  Do you believe the KJV Bible to be a carefully constructed written Holy Book?  If so, then would you say that that both the Old Testament and the New Testament are examples of well thought-out plans of writing?

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By christian96, April 3, 2009 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

Annie—-“As science doesn’t back ANY of the Bible,
nor your ideas” was written at 10:39 p.m.  My guess
at that time of the night you mind was altered by
some substance which would explain such an ignorant
statement.

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By Annie Reitano, April 3, 2009 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

You are most welcome Shenonymous.  I love Lewis Black because he DOES use truth with his humour.  He’s great!  I thank you as well.

Christian96:

I agree with this statement: “What significance does the Tower of Babel or who gave David bread to eat have to my everyday life.  Absolutely nothing. “

Now begs the question, since these trivial and meaningless stories are in “God’s divine word”..what makes you think any of it is so divine?  How are you so sure that all of it is meaningless?  I see you have your ideas of what Satan is, and what he may or may not have done.  But science certainly doesn’t back any of the Bible, nor your ideas. 

As to what creates evil…God did.  Isaiah 45:7.  There are other places where “he” sports this claim as well, but none quite so clear as that verse.

Tom:  I was just reading some of my last post to you.  Although I appear spicey with you at times, you really are the nicest xian I have ever debated with.  I guess for me, it is my incredulity (sp?) that such an obviously smart man who has seen a fair deal of the world, would actually buy into this stuff without question.

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By christian96, April 3, 2009 at 10:31 am Link to this comment

You folks are spending too much time on trival issues
like the Tower of Babel and who gave David the bread.
Leave the trival and get to the meat of the Bible.
Why does the Bible say in the last days people would
depart from the truth and give their minds over to
fables?  What are fables?  Movies, TV programs,
media distortion of news events, computer games,
novels, etc.  How are those things influencing our
thoughts and behaviors?  Those are the meaty issues.
Why does evil exist?  I have spent a considerable
amount of time trying to figure out exactly how Satan
influences peoples thoughts.  One answer I’ve come up
with is that he has somehow made his way into the
atomic structure of the world.  Perhaps, the electron
since it is a negative charge.  Once in the atomic
structure he knows God couldn’t destroy him without
destroying all people.  Jesus said let the wheat and
tares grow together until the harvest.  Then the tares will be cast into the lake of fire.  What significance does the Tower of Babel or who gave David bread to eat have to my everyday life.  Absolutely nothing.  Satan is taking up your time and
intelligence with trival matters.  Perhaps, we need
to be spending that time and intellect on trying to
educate people how those in control of the media are
influencing their thoughts and behaviors.

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2009 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

It depends on how precise one wants to be when it come to beliefs.  Most people who hold beliefs of a religious nature I suggest that all those beliefs have an origin in ignorance.  It is most obvious that humans try to do what is most advantageous with respect to their health and social life; a body of beliefs in as important a way as religion of finding meaning and value in the difficulties of life gives answers to the most difficult questions and can give order and meaning to situations even where explanations are absent.  But that doesn’t mean there is Truth to those beliefs.  While religion may have been invented by man (who didn’t need a Satan to do it), mankind has had a religious need since they hung out in the caves.  It would do a thoughtful human good to learn about the nature of belief.

There is something I call an affliction of the deluded and that is somethinig called performative utterances by the Englishman John Langshaw Austin which describes a class of statements that perform an action as opposed to merely reporting or describing it (Michel Onfray).  In other words, “simply declaring something is true is thought to create its truth.”  The problem is that if one operates on this premise, then everyone can operate on it and when you have conflicting declarations, then what? 

Lewis Black is most enjoyable.  He is so funny because his humor comes close to The Truth.  There was another one at that site that is a bit longer.  Thank you Annie for putting me onto it. 
Lewis Black - The Old Testament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrlWOhtj3g&feature=related

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By Annie Reitano, April 3, 2009 at 4:10 am Link to this comment

Tom, first of all, you’ve already been stumped on the contradictions…many times.  Or you would have some clear cut reasons why they are in the Bible when questioned on them, and you wouldn’t have to veer off into conspiracy theories.

Who’s Gomer?

Anyway, I was using your own words.  Once again, keep up with the thread.  You said in your post to me that “Jesus states that the event happened “in the days of Abiathar the high priest” and yet we know from 1 Samuel that ABIATHAR WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE HIGH PRIEST at that time; it was his father, Ahimelech.”  Now, my question to you was why (by your own admission) would Jesus say that Abiathar was the high priest when “we know” from first Samuel that he was not.  I am taking from YOUR POST, Tom.  My question was: Was Jesus confused?

You never answered.  Instead you went off on conspiracy theories such as the illuminati, etc.  And that just doesn’t do it for me. :D Sorry.  But if we are going to discuss, answering questions that are put to you is a must.  Going off on your own tangent and ad sequitor I might add…just doesn’t work in your favour.

Please explain.  We already KNOW that you believe in the Iluminati and Jesus and the devil, but you just keep repeating that “god will do this and that” over and over.  Supply evidence.  And no, it’s not in the Bible.  Whatever you show me in the Bible, I will show you a contradiction—which it would appear you are afraid of since you mentioned them as “supposed” and yet you have never ONCE been able to explain any one that I have given you.  You just travel off on your same mantra..“the illuminati did it.”  :D

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By tgambill, April 2, 2009 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

Every alleged Contradiction can be explained to exhauston but in every case you are searching for the one that will supposedly stump me but that won’t happen.  The Holy Spirit talks to us that pray and given discernment.  Our discussions are going to cease in the not do distant future when the next 911 horrifies the world.  It is confirmed that the Chinese and Russian military are deploying in Mexico as are over 350,000 Mexican troops with more than you can even believe already in the US today…...its coming.

It was said by Shenomym…..

“There would be many ways for a God to stop a “select” group of people from building a tower to heaven.  Like destroy the building would be the fastest and most demonstrative way!”

We cannot pick the way God will take care of the incidents and events as we do not have his wisdom…..he knows a lot better then us.  When the first human designes his first Universe then and only then will manking ever begin to comprehend.

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By tgambill, April 2, 2009 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

Annie, I did answer your questions in the right way.  “that doesn’t do it for me”....lol…surprise surprise…..as Gomer would say.  I gave you the truth.  I gave you the exact answer the Rabbi or a Priest will tell you…..this is the answer and the truth of what has been.  God was neither confused nor did he lie.  Its man’s inability to understand God who has 11 dimensions of time and space to our tiny four dimensional capacity to understand the universe which is impossible.  You are not using my words, another spin.  Show me where I used the words Lie and confused?  I didn’t my dear Annie, you did.  Bill O’Rielly is another Illuminati puppet commanded by the CFR and Rockefellers, like Alex Jones, Ron Paul, Michael Moore, and Naomi Wolf in clever manipulations.

God, the creator of the Universe knows what is going to happen and what decisions are going to be made. He is in total control.  God can do whatever he likes because he owns the universe, he commands it and he will rebuild it.  You cannot set the parameters as none of us can even begin to understand the vastness of God and this universe.

I will never give up the truth and the truth will reveal itself soon, very very soon.  Islam is Satans design as the Roman Catholic dogma and lately the Charasmatic Christian movement and many evangelicals are with him.

Heaven is all around you in another dimension.  The jews have nothing to do with it as they disobeyed Gods commands many times and suffered for it.  Their trials aren’t done yet as they turned their back on the one true God and now they will be brought to their knees when their time comes…..

Religion was invented by man and Satan…God didn’t send Jesus to Earth to establish Religion…...He came to save mankind by taking on the punishment for sins…..Romans 10:9

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By Annie Reitano, April 2, 2009 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

Something funny from comedian Lewis Black.  Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_BRZoXjOmI&feature=player_embedded

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By Annie Reitano, April 2, 2009 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

Tom,

You answered my questions regarding the obvious problems of the Bible by saying that I put spin on it.  That doesn’t do it for me.  I mean, imagine, you and I are having a conversation face to face.  It would be similar to you saying “no it isn’t” in response to these problems.  I need to hear why you think Jesus would lie about Abiathar..or was he confused?  I was just using your words; I cannot spin them.  And lies can be spun…make no mistake about it.  I don’t know where you get the idea that only truth can be spun unless you watch Bill O’Reilly a lot. :D

And what of God changing his mind?  I never get an answer on that one, and yet in all three languages, it means the same.  In one place he cannot change his mind because he’s god who knows everything.  In many other places he can and did change his mind.

I think you should give up the scary-tales.  Islam has very similar crappola that they sell their people.  Hell, it looks like it COULD be true…just like “the end of days”.  But don’t go strapping on a bomb to prove your faith, please. raspberry I know you have faith in these things, but putting that aside, read over what Shenonymous just posted before me.  It’s so obviously what really took place (Jewish sages writing their meandering thoughts, etc.) than actual truth. 

Where IS heaven?  Why did it tick God off so much that they would try something so ridiculous? (Supposing the story were true).  When I see my friends kids doing something silly…I laugh.  Apparently the Jews didn’t have a sense of humour, rather they just lied and wrote that everyone suddenly spoke in Italian, Spanish and whatever else and therefore couldn’t communicate any longer.  I wonder if there were any deaf people there who just kept right on building. :D   It’s crazy!!

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By tgambill, April 2, 2009 at 7:10 am Link to this comment

“re you saying that speaking in a different language and upsetting the whole human race and their communication process is NOT confusing, but that speaking in tongues IS confusing and so therefore justified?  I don’t understand you.’

****:))  nice spins.  My dear Annie, the spins are coming from you.  You have a lot of could’s, why’s, can’t have it both ways’, would of’s, I have definites and this is the answer that the rabbi will come back with.  The truth which the Bible is the only truth can be spun.  What you don’t realize as 99.99999% of Atheists don’t realize is this real truth.  There is a God, there is a Satan and we as humans are the created exception to the rule of this universe as created by God for his rule and to share love with the creation.  He gave us free will and wihout free will you cannot have true love.  Now, the existence of Satan gives that choice of chose good or evil and material rewards as enticement.  we are not of this world but the supernatural is the rule and the reality as we are temporary and will soon be changed to the eternal, what we call the supernatural state never to be in a material existence again. 

Atheist are being played as millions of Christians are being played by the Illuminati that works or worships the entity of Satan/Lucifer.  Once Satan has the control, albeit for a short time Atheist will then be forced to worship the anti-christ or literally be executed if they don’t.  Its coming soon as we know the signs which have already been accomplished save two. 

Soon when this thing becomes obvious, this change to world government surfaces the internet will be shut down at least for a while.    First they will demonize the internet stating that it is a media for terrorist and then justify the control of the internet, just watch the reports on the news as they develop.  The goal is to reduce the worlds population to 500,000,000 by war, controlled and manufactured disease and executions.  The 3,000 concentration camps are built by Haliburton are complete and FEMA is setting up the drop dead date.  The Calif prisons is releasing 50,000 prisoners under the BS of overcrowding prisons and will use them for armed security as other states follow suit….the released prisoners will allow vacant spaces in the prisoners to place dissedents once the culling begins.

This is real…...now, the Bible is the only true word of God.  God, who will return as Jesus will put a stop to this culling and will subjugate the evil in one command long story short and short story once it begins.

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By Shenonymous, April 2, 2009 at 5:22 am Link to this comment

There is a lot of territory (topics) being covered here and due to time constraints to allow one to live one’s life outside of TD and work at one’s job, I will squeeze my life into my life and address what I consider issues a bit at a time. I am fascinated by the argument about the contradictions as found in Holy Books of all religions.  As you may have noticed, I work mainly from logic, the truth of premises, and if things make sense. I go more for reasonable and tested explanation, more the scientific pathway because it makes more sense! This is how I will continue to proceed. 

Regarding the so-called story of the Tower of Babel which is an explanation about the various languages in the world is about as preposterous as a turtle driving a Ford pickup.  In my concept of God, God is a being of infinite knowledge and wisdom to which there is no other being greater.  There would be many ways for a God to stop a “select” group of people from building a tower to heaven.  Like destroy the building would be the fastest and most demonstrative way!  They would not soon forget it!  Sort of like the twin towers and Allah!  It is idiocy to think that even if the tale were true that those people who were divinely caused to have different languages would not be able to overcome the linguistic affliction they could not start to build their special tower again!  For instance, now that the world has in fact transcended their various language barriers, alla translators, are they building towers to heaven?  This is simply a story for simple minds of the hoi polloi why by the Jewish clerics who wrote and codified mainly for Jewish crowd control the Bible stories.  The Tale of the Tower is like an Aesop Fable, like the Chicken Little and the sky is falling hysteria, because it was noticed even by the most dumbfounded that there were various languages in the world.  A mere study of linguistics will give reasonable explanations for the development of various languages.  It is one’s preference to believe fairy tales. 

And for crying out loud, where exactly is heaven?  It is in the sky?  Is it above the earth?  Is it floating in the universe somewhere?  Or isn’t it only in the mind?  Where then would, could a tower be built to?  All that Biblical mumbo jumbo is talisman, is amulet, is Hebrew whooodooo voodooo.  If there is indeed, in fact, a message of love from a God, then why doesn’t he just do it!  The notion of free will is a red herring.  Why would an omniscient God give stupid humans free will when he knew ahead of time they could, they would break his laws!  It is the most evil of notions one can think of.  Since it is a pure fantastical set up, it is complete b.s.  Belief is not warranted.

Of course there will be more to come.

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By Annie Reitano, April 2, 2009 at 4:09 am Link to this comment

Thank you Tom and Christian96!

I do admit that the contradiction regarding Abiathar would be easy for a christian to place spin on it.  Or even a skeptic.  But it certainly begs the question…who gave David the bread??  Even you, Tom, said: “Jesus states that the event happened “in the days of Abiathar the high priest” and yet we know from 1 Samuel that ABIATHAR WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE HIGH PRIEST at that time; it was his father, Ahimelech.”  Why would Jesus call Abiathar the HIGH PRIEST when you stated that ‘we know that Abiathar was not the high priest at that time.’  Was Jesus confused?  I think it’s a good spin, but spin none the less.

To clarify, give me the LACK of contradicition here: 


Mark 2:26 (King James Version)

26 How he went into the house of God in the days of ABIATHAR THE HIGH PRIEST, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

1 Samuel 21:1 ” 21:1 Then came David to Nob to AHMILECH THE PRIEST: and Ahimelech was afraid at the meeting of David, and said unto him, Why [art] thou alone, and no man with thee?”

21:6 “So the priest [AHMILECH] gave him hallowed [bread]: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.”

Tom, regarding this SPECIFIC CONTEXT and the SHEWBRED.. who gave it to David?  In the book of Mark, Ahmilech is not even mentioned as being there.  Which begs the question…why in the book of Samuel is David talking to and about Ahmilech solely?  Nothing is mentioned of Abiathar.  And to say “go back to Samuel chapter this or that and see this…”, well, it could be educational..but it’s like making the Bible a confusing puzzle.

What about the second contradicition?  Tom, Tom, that’s a LOT of spin!!!  First of all, God is either the confuser of the languages and people at Bable, or he is NOT the author of confusion.  It’s that simple.  It doesn’t matter why he did it at Babel or why he didn’t want confusion regarding Pentecost.  It makes no difference whatsoever.  He either is the confuser or he is NOT the AUTHOR of such a thing.  You cannot have it both ways.

Your own words:  “because there the Lord CONFUSED the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth,”  Are you saying that speaking in a different language and upsetting the whole human race and their communication process is NOT confusing, but that speaking in tongues IS confusing and so therefore justified?  I don’t understand you.  God either creates confusion over languages, or he does not.  Which is it?


Christan96:  Is “confuse” or “mix-up” really mutually exclusive from one another?  If I tell you, “Christian, you just got me all mixed up” vs. “Christian, you just got me all confused”...what’s the difference?  Yes, please, ask you Rabbi.  I know of my own who will have a different story, I am sure.  And that’s the point…each person has their own perception, based on their emotional and nurtured ties to any subject, that makes them have a need to fit the square peg in the round hole.  But you can see that in using logic, it’s really not possible without hype and spin.

I will await your answers before I go onto the next contradiction of the Bible.  There are tons that just can’t be explained away because of “context”...or God meant this at this time because things were this way..”  If God is the same yesterday, today and forever as the Bible states regarding this particular deity, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.  Still, it’s interesting.

I await. :D

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By tgambill, April 1, 2009 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

part 2 of 2, In this context and story, Paul had just given instructions on the proper use of the tongues in the church, a use which stated order and proper sequence.  The goal in this case was not to create confusion but understanding and clarity so that they understand the gospel and an orderly service of worship.  Now in contrast, the context of the Tower of Babel is quite different.  The people of the earth were attempting to build a tower that would “...reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name; lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” (Gen. 11:4). The sin of the people was their great pride. They were seeking to remain one group in one location under their own efforts.  This was a defiance of God’s proclamation to fill the earth (Gen. 9:1).  God wanted them to spread out. “So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth,” (Gen. 11:8-9).

There is no contradiction since each is a different context and a different subject. 

For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ, ’ and will deceive many. … and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people (Matthew 24:5, 11).

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time (Matthew 24:24-25).

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

We can only wonder as to what “strong delusion” is being suggested that God sends to those who received not the love of the truth, and what a lie like that might be. 

I’m surprised that you didn’t bring this one up, so I answered it just in case.  God will send a strong delusion to the unsaved because they chose not to believe the truth then they convict themselves…..because this is what their free will has chosen to accept.

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By tgambill, April 1, 2009 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

Annie, this is an easy one.  First of all read what it says in 1 Sam 21:1; you will find that Ahimelech was the Priest at the time David ate the showbread.  1). Ahimalech was the high priest when David ate the shewbread. 1 Sam.21:1-6.  If you read the entire two chapters of 1 Samuel 21-21 you will find that there are many different priests.  You will further find that “in the days of Abiathar the high priest”, there were at least 86 priests.  Read 1 Samuel 22:18.  Now, notice that in Mark it DOES NOT SAY that David went to Abiathar, rather it says that the “went to the house of GOD, “in the days of Abiathar the high priest”.  As a matter of fact you will also find that Saul discovered that Ahimelech aided David.  Saul then ordered Doeg to kill Ahimelech and his entire family leaving only one son, Abiathar the priest, 1 Sam 22:19 and as of 23:9 he managed to escape.  There are multiple priests in the days of Abiathar. 

in Leviticus 21:10 how the high priest is defined as the one who has the annointing oil poured on his head and “is consecrated to put on the garments.” Now look carefully at the wording of 1 Sam 22:18:

“And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod.”

Therefore, Mark is perfectly correct in saying that David went to the house of God “in the days of Abiathar the high priest.” This is not a contradiction.

Jesus states that the event happened “in the days of Abiathar the high priest” and yet we know from 1 Samuel that Abiathar was not actually the high priest at that time; it was his father, Ahimelech. 
Annie, you are taking classic, alleged contradictions from Atheist Alleged Contradictions 101 [AAC 101] and presenting them to me.  It is hoped that even one of these will confuse the Christian who is not well read or who fails to do the research or who has even a tiny lack of faith.  In any case, in 1 Cor. 14:33, you are dealing with the context of the verse.  It is dealing with the “gift of tongues’ as spoken in Christian Churches in the early years.  In many cases foreigners would attend and would hear the sermons in their own tongues.  Now the Christian evangelist, prosperity types, “Copeland, Hagin, and others” are speaking in tongues and there is confusion which is of Satan. 

This is demonic and people are being fooled and deceived believing these types are real men of God and they are absolutely not. It makes me angry but God will take vengeance on these types in ways they cannot even begin to imagine by his own words they will be judged more harshly than a rapist or murderer. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOr_bT0mOk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mqkt7nHong

These types are self promoting and making money in Gods name..Jesus is not a product and he will be judged harshly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGmLFSPkyhs

Exposing Prosperity Preachers’ Lies and Schemes (pt 2 of 5)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2HMR3zCQWY

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By christian96, April 1, 2009 at 10:37 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous—-You mention PROVEN fabrications and
contradictions in the Bible.  Could you be more
specific?  What fabrications and contradictions?
Also, what do you mean by seven ways to interpret
the Bible?
No where in the Bible does it state the world was
created in 6,000 years.  Where did you get that idea?
Are you talking about the six days of creation in the
1st chapter of Genesis?  If so, you should be aware
that 2nd Peter 3:8 relates that time is relative to
God(an idea which was confirmed by Albert Einstein).
Primarily, I use the King James version of the Bible.
I recognize some inconsistencies which can probably
be attributed to translations.  For example, the
Bible says the love of money is the root of ALL evil.
The love of money has nothing to do with my lusting
after a woman.  The verse should probably been translated, “the love of money is the root of MANY
evils.”  Of course, we only have to look at the current global financial mess to confirm that idea.
I studied the many facets of Human Growth and Development in graduate school while completing Master and Doctoral degrees in Counseling and Child
Development before I began studying the Bible after
my father’s heart attack on Good Friday, April 8, 1977.  I was amazed how much wisdom existed in the
Bible as it not only relates to Human Growth and
Development but also how accurately the Bible
described events in the past along with events in the
future.  For example, leaders presently meeting in
Europe are calling for a one-world government along
with a one-world currency.  This was predicted many
thousands of years ago in the Bible.  A coincidence?
I think not! 
I disagree with your comment “there is more than
sufficient evidence that there is a biological
evolutionary pregression of organisms.”  There are
just too many knowledgeable biologists vehemently
disagreeing over the THEORY of evolution.  It does
concern me that evolution is being taught in public
schools as a FACT and not a THEORY.

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By christian96, April 1, 2009 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment

Annie Reitano—-In reference to your two questions.
(1) The word “confusion” in not used in Hebrew to
describe the different languages.  The English word
“mixed” would be more appropriate.  A more pertinent
question to me would be, “Why was God concerned about
them reaching Heaven with the technology at the time?”  Unless the comment was more of a prediction
of what would be happening now with NASA.
(2) As to your question comparing “Ahimalech” to
“Abiathar”, I am not a scholar of the Hebrew and
Greek languages.  Therefore, any response would purely be a “guess” and “guesses” are not good enough
for an inquiring mind.  I attend services on Saturday
mornings with Messianic Christians(Israelis and Gentiles who believe in Jesus.)  I will ask the Rabbi
this Saturday and get back to you.

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By Annie Reitano, April 1, 2009 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

Hey Tom! 

If what you just stated is true, then I want to give you a simple assignment.  I know that you lean heavily toward the KJV Bible.  So, using that version of the Bible, please explain where the two following verses do NOT contradict.  I will concider any answer you give…but please..make it a good one. raspberry

1). Ahimalech was the high priest when David ate the shewbread. 1 Sam.21:1-6.

Abiathar was the high priest when David ate the shewbread. Mk.2:26.

2). God confused the language at Babel. Gen.11:9.
God is not the author of confusion. 1 Cor.14:33

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By tgambill, March 31, 2009 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

“There are too many fabrications proven and contradictions that are unmistakable and for which only the most naive believe that the Bible is strictly true.  A blind belief in reading the Bible as literally true is not only dangerous but without a doubt leads one into a confusion from which the only way out is to capitulate to the loss of one’s sound reasoning.”

Sheno…in reality there has been no contradictions proven but many have tried and many have attempted to take the Bible piece by piece and twist in clever ways to make into a lie. When one knows the Bible you can see through this clearly….

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By Shenonymous, March 31, 2009 at 10:38 pm Link to this comment

While I cannot reproach anyone who finds belief in a supernatural being utterly essential to be able to cope with the conditions of their life, or the world as they perceive it, belief that the Bible is literally true is problematic.  There are too many fabrications proven and contradictions that are unmistakable and for which only the most naive believe that the Bible is strictly true.  A blind belief in reading the Bible as literally true is not only dangerous but without a doubt leads one into a confusion from which the only way out is to capitulate to the loss of one’s sound reasoning.  I will tell you why this most crucial.  There are at least 100 versions of the Bible in existence today. There are also at least seven ways to interpret the Bible.  To which one do you subscribe christiain96 and how did you come to choose to interpret it the way you do?  Why would the others then be false?  By decree?  Whose decree?  How does one verify the word of God? 

For instance there is more than sufficient evidence that the world is older than 6,000 years.  There is more than sufficient evidence that there is a biological evolutionary progression of organisms that yields animals, including the human animal, as they are today.  The reason science has more validity than books of fantasy, even religious holy books, is 1) not because science is infallible, as it certainly is not, but because it is open to revision where inerrancy is claimed of the Bible; 2) tests and experiments are amassed and verified by many to give weight to reliable conclusions. 

The book Christians accept as the holy book, the Bible, has two parts: The Old Testament (or Tanakh for the Jews) and the New Testament.  The Christian father god is the same god of the Jews, Yahweh.  Yahweh was not the most gentle of gods.  And while the declared son of that god, Jesus, has the reputation of being gentle and brotherly, an astonishing number of so-called Christians are far from gentle and brotherly, but kill, maim and destroyed millions in the name of their god or put their god on “their side” of a war. 

In everything I do, I search for truth.  How is it you represent the truths you learned from Jesus?  Which teachings did you study?  The original Gospels in the Greek?  In which language do you think Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote?  The compilation of the chapters of both the Old Testament and the New Testament have all been contested at one time or another and through inclusions, revisions and exclusions by the express direction of Constantine to Eusebius of Caserea to put together a body of twenty-seven books assembled from among a great many of which the rest called apocryphas were not included in the Bible proper.  Furthermore, it was not infrequently monks who translated from Greek to Latin did so with a linguistic bias for their particular religious order.  From the agreements emerging from the controversial Council of Trent, the Holy Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of the Bible was final. Any Christian who substituted his or her own interpretation was a heretic.  This means any and all versions other than the Catholic version.  Also, the Bible and Church Tradition (not mere customs but the ancient tradition that made up part of the Catholic faith) were equally authoritative.

So whatever version you read unless it is in the original Greek it has been changed through the millennia for various reasons and therefore a literal reading is an absurdity since there is no ‘original’ New Testament.  It would be a reading of a collection of made up history.

There is much much more to consider and the hour is late.  I will continue to respond to your comments to me christian96 tomorrow.

The Ozmoroid youtube is a hoot!  Thank you Annie.  We do have to see though if what is said is justifiable or as Socrates would put it, “wind eggs.”

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By Annie Reitano, March 31, 2009 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

This link provides many great answers to the questions and comments commonly made by xians to atheists.  I hope you enjoy it as it is full of logic, reason, and downright knowledge.  It is the YouTube series debate between Christian apologists and an atheist debater.  He sometimes seems sarcastic, but he is dead on.  Mostly the apologists questions are just answered with incredulious disbelief.  It is honest and to the point.  I doubt anyone could be offended.

Christian96:  It will answer a lot of the questions you have regarding spirits, the flesh, guilt, etc.

Enjoy the debate..no matter which side you take. smile

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=593BA5751817A001

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By Annie Reitano, March 31, 2009 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

Hello again Christian96!  And thanks for answering my post.  I will break down my response to you as follows:

C96: “By christian96, March 30 at 11:45 pm #
Annie Reitano—-For one, you have no idea how primative people lived unless you are older than
I think.”

That’s a silly response.  Of course we know how primitive people lived.  We need only to look to writings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Bible (for what it’s worth with it’s re-translations and book deletions through the years) and the UnHoly Qur’aan.  The latter is a good read if you care to; and you will find that many Middle Easterners still live in a very primitive and backward fashion to this day.  OR..you could just turn on the news. wink

C96:
“I don’t know anything about you
personally but I do know the Bible talks about people
either being guided by the Holy Spirit or the Spirit
of Antichrist.  It sounds to me that your thoughts
are being guided by the Spirit of Antichrist.”

Please define the Holy Spirit as you believe it, and then the Spirit of the Anti-Christ.  If you don’t mind, please be precise in your descriptions of these two spirits that you believe in. 

C96: “Where
is your compassion for broken families and the millions of children suffering because their parents
are engaged in sexual behaviors that are tearing the
families apart?”

I have a great deal of compassion for them.  Much more so than your god who drowned families in a flood (supposing he were real), and snatched up and killed the firstborn son of every Egyption because he himself had hardened Pharoah’s heart against the Jews, etc.  Where was God’s compassion for his Jewish chosen families during the Holocaust?  It’s true…I am no saint, but I could do far better in the compassion department than your written god.  Read Exodus chatpers 22 and 23…and you will find out just what your written god believes about unborn fetuses.  By his law, you will find that an aborted fetus is punishable by a fine of money.  But a murder (see the differentiation?) is punishable by an “eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.” 

If I speak for any anti-christ, then it is myself who speaks and no other.  Logic dictates that these things are not only wrong..but they are evil.  In Isaiah, god claims that he created evil.  45:7 Read it!  Then let me know what you think.

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”  KJV.

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