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David and Warren, where are you?  Frank and his claptrap about Truth is gone.  You can come back and discuss xianity and Xtheists as you originally came here to do.  It is your turn now.

I believe Frank has left us again.  He did this the last time when he could’t/wouldn’t answer specific questions.  In a couple of months he will come back spouting his existential nonsense about Truth as though this never happened.  You are right, Annie and Sned, he has shown himself to be a fraud and a liar. 
I know you are reading this Frank.  You are a sad old man, but when you die you will go in peace believing that Allah will embrace you.  I gain nothing by denying you that peace.  I only participate in these dialogues out of a sense of intellectual honesty.  If you come back I will continue in the same vein.  Peace be with you.

mm mm.  He lies because he’s a liar.  Yes, he’s confused, but he wasn’t so confused that he didn’t understand your three questions the first time.  He is a LIAR ..he’s old and bored and has noting better to do than attempt to confuse this thread whith a lot of this hoopla about truth. 

Look what his son did.  I bet he never once listened to his somn nor had a two way conversation with him.  It’s all about him talking and not really saying anything.  If you talk…it doesn’t matter.  Your questions aren’t good enough to answer.  You’re just a 20 something and he’s OLD and WISE.

Old and senile is more likely.  If not that, than I am right.  He’s just a liar.

Frank, I do not believe that you intentionally lie to others, only to yourself.  I do not believe you intentionally deceive others, only yourself.  That is why your postings are often contradictory.  You are confused.  You are here because you feel we can help you.  You really want to know the truth, but it keeps escaping you.  you really know the truth already, but refuse to accept it.  When you mull all these thoughts over in your mind, you simply confuse yourself because you know there is no god, but you are searching for one you can believe in.  You know the truth, now let the truth set you free.  You can start by honestly answering the three questions.  Don’t put it off any longer.  Do it now!!

Frank…you are a liar. Period. I don’t need to fill that page to prove that. You shot
a moose. No you didn’t. You lied. To make a point? Bullshit. You said you’d go
away. You lied. Hence “liar liar pants on fire” BEFORE you came back because you
CAN’T LEAVE US ALONE. You’re as shallow as a tub.

Come on, Frank!  You’re still confused and you’re fighting it!  Now that you are aware of your confusion, you’ve got a chance.  Let go!!  Just answer the three questions and let’s see where it goes from there.

I have been there and done all of that many times. At age 81 I have had more
experiences than you in your 20 something life. I guess at your age based on my
knowledge of the arrogance of youth. I do not know your exact age, but your
arrogance shows up clearly. So you want to be a professor. Perhaps you are. As such,
your arrogance is amplified many times as the number of students you have and the
number of lectures you have made.

I am a student, but not of the classroom variety whose grade is a function of
gullibility. I asked you to consider in your own mind what I have clearly
distinguished. The difference between truth and fact clearly escaped you. It is
absolutely true that a fact is either true or not true. It cannot be true that it is
not true that it is either true or not true. But a fact that something is red is
according to the meaning of the term red, is true or not true as a condition of
being red or not red. That constitutes the correspondence theory of truth. An object
can be red or not red. That is fact. But truth can only be true. There is no truth
that is not true. Though there are no red objects that are not red, there are
objects that are not red, thus not confusing if one finds an object that is blue.
One does not find red objects that are blue or blue objects that are red, but one
can find one red and one blue object. Objects are not red are known, thus
conceivable. But truth that is not true is not conceivable. Fact is something true
that could be not true, but truth is always true.

You could argue that red is always red and that red balls that are not red are
impossible. True, but you are now dealing with truth rather than fact as such. The
object places it as fact and the modifier, red, gives a condition. Conditions are
met or not met. Truth has only one condition, true. Fact has two possibilities, true
or not true. Confusion leads to a reference to ‘true fact’ with an assumption of the
possibility of a ‘false fact’ in conversations. A fact cannot be false, but a
conceivable existence of a matter of fact that is false is obvious.

Common usage confuses the issue that allows clear distinction in the mind of a clear
thinker. Debate and other discourse are attempts to clarify thinking, though
debating as a sport allows confusion of the adversary to ‘win’ the match. All manner
of maneuvers in debate matches lead to the kind of exchanges we have here. I say
that the matter is not a subject for debate as a sport, but as a search for what is
truly true. It is also a search for certainty, as far as we can go in that pursuit.
Certainty takes on the tautological aspect of truth. That constitutes, as I see it,
the claim of a logic of the singular. My professor of English in college tried to
construct a logic of the singular to prove the existence of God as he believed God
to be. He fell flat because he could not begin with a possibility that his god did
not exist. Had he taken one more step in that direction and searched for what could
not be not true, he could have stumbled upon his logic of the singular. Instead he
spent his life as a fundamentalist preacher, having failed tenure as a college
professor. I truly hope you make tenure if you are a professor. Then you have more time to consider truth as truth and fact as fact. I recommend David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding. It is full of weak arguments, but right on in the question.

What you mistake for arrogance in me is exuberant joy of discovery of truth. I don’t need your lectures, lesson plans, or exercises in futility.

Good luck in your pursuit, even if trivial.

Okay, Frank, if you are not lying, that leaves the other alternative.  You are confused.  Don’t worry about it; people with a good college education/indoctrination usually are.  We are here to help.  The indocrtination is insiduous, so it may take a good long time to overcome, but I did it and so can you!
Your primary source of confusion seems to stem from your intellectual realization that there is no god, but your lifelong indoctrination tells you that there must be.  It is very difficult to accept that this matured mind that you have nurtured and grown will some day simply end.  It is also sad to think that those who died before you are not waiting somewhere for you.  That is why people have hope for some kind of life after death.  Another reason is that they see so much injustice in the world that they long for some ultimate judgement that will elevate them and be the undoing of those who have oppressed them. 
Your secondary confusion seems to be between time and truth.  One theory has it that time is a fourth dimensional ribbon that extends forever into the past and forever into the future.  Today, or now, is simply a three dimensional cross section of that ribbon.  In order to travel in time, we merely have to find a way to jump from one cross section into another.  If this concept of time is true, it follows that your concept of truth will exist for all of time.  Of course, the single ribbon theory is fraught with contradictions.  What if a time traveller were to back to an earlier cross section and accidentally kill a mosquito that otherwise might have spawned generations of mosquitos, one of which would infect a key historical figure.  Then you could not return to the cross section you came from, because it would no longer exist, which means that you would have not existed to go back and accidentally kill the mosquito, etc.  This leads to the idea of infinite ribbons, each representing a different outcome for each possibility.  Of course, this would mean that there is no overriding truth, but only truth for any particular ribbon.
Now, your first assignment is to go back to my previous three questions.  Answer them, not for me, but for yourself.  Consider them thoughtfully and look for your own prejudices in your answers.

By definition, lying is intentional deceit.
Intentional is the key, but deceit is the intent
itself. I do not intend to deceive, thus do not lie.
I even do not call anyone a liar, even when I detect
an apparent intent to deceive. The nearest I come to
that is when someone calls me a liar by implying that
I deceive.

If you are deceived by anything I say, the intent to
deceive is not there. The honest effort to inform and
to correct false impressions is not deceit by the
informer, but if the message is not received, it is
the target that moves. I appeal to an unmovable faith
in reason and truth.

Ancient geographers who proclaimed that the earth is
flat, were not liars. Mistaken and wrong does not
make a liar. Neither does faith in a false god or
reason make a liar. Atheists who honestly believe
that there is no God are not liars. Those who
honestly claim to be Muslim, but who do not align
their belief with their honesty, are not liars.
Believers in rituals over reality are not liars,
though they deceive themselves and others.

Democratically, I defend your right to your own
belief, no matter how misguided as a political right.
But, more importantly, what if I am wrong? What is my
right to claim something wrong? The same as yours. If
you can present credible evidence that I am wrong,
not just recitation of errors of others, but real
evidence, then we both win. I can correct my error at
your behest. So far all of you who claim that I am
wrong do so by citing errors of others even when I
disclaim such beliefs and practices. After all, it is
as much my right to doubt others as it is your right
to doubt me.

If truth cannot sway you, I certainly cannot. My only
weapon is truth in any adversarial exchange. If what
you say is true, it is my duty to detect it for my
own benefit, not yours. It may be an honest desire
that I see the truth as you know it, but you do not
proselytize for atheism when you defend it. Embrace
of truth is the test, not loyalty to a group belief.
That is the benefit of democracy, truth tends to win
though errors can be pervasive. It is not that I love
you more than truth, but that I love truth more than
anything. It is my quest to align myself with truth
at all cost. Those who lose to truth, lose all.

As a human being my only defense is denial of
falsehoods intended or not to deceive me. So I deny
that I am a liar. I respect and defend your right to
differ. Why can’t you respect my right, even if you
cannot defend my right? Defense need not be active.
Passive deference is enough.

Where I have used humor to get a point across, it is
not intended to deceive, thus not lying. Just the
opposite—it is intended to avoid error. Political
cartoons do the same. All humor plays upon the
capacity to reason in honor of truth and
consequences. I have never accused any atheist or
theist of lying. I accept that there is no intent to
deceive. I appeal to your democratic spirit that is
exactly the same as mine. Free speech does not intend
to promote error, but to make possible its
correction.

Truth determines who is Muslim, not people, rituals, or customs. Fakes are accepted as fellow human beings even if we doubt their commitment, because only Allah decides, not other Muslims.

Frank, what is the value of being a Muslim?

Please answer these last three questions separately.

The true Muslim accepts God and the will of God.

Frank, please explain the will of God.

The belief in God as one and only is the essence of Islam. The rituals, clothing, food, and words do not make a Muslim, they only announce that one is Muslim. Fakes can claim to be Muslim, but Allah is all knowing. That is, Truth determines who is Muslim, not people, rituals, or customs. Fakes are accepted as fellow human beings even if we doubt their commitment, because only Allah decides, not other Muslims. We may gossip about fellow Muslims and even ask if they fast, pray, or give alms. We may ask of one if he/she has made Hag (pilgrimage), and even accept the epithet Hag appended to our names, but none of those constitute Islam. The true Muslim accepts God and the will of God. He does not tempt God by jumping over a cliff, or into a fire. He does not kill himself to get into paradise sooner. He does not violate ijtehad (reason). Muslims are human with many motives and assumptions not constituting Islam.

He does not kill himself to get into paradise sooner.

Frank, please explain paradise.

Frank’s preaching cont’d

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 16 at 11:52 am #

*****I am amazed that after extensive and detailed logical analysis of the concept of Truth as God, someone still has never read it. If they did read it, they did not understand or forgot. Then there is the bit about the major concern of Muslims is conversion or Christians and Jews. Finally, the essence of Islam escapes them.

The logic of Truth is as follows:

Muslims do not convert anyone to Islam. That is done by Allah (God) himself.  Muslims accept the decision of God as to who is Muslim in the end. ...However, Muslims leave the final decision to God, not man. We practice public rituals that announce the faith that we are Muslim. They are called the pillars of faith. It is the public display of the faith to each other.

Though the public display includes charity, prayer, pilgrimage, and fasting, the one essential pillar of shahada is to God, not to man. The ideal is to utter the shahada without observers, though it is commonly done in public. Fasting is not to be done with any display of suffering from lack of nutrition, but internally as a support of faith. It is understood that there are exceptions to four of the pillars of the faith. Alms are not required of those who cannot afford it because they are poor, themselves. Prayer is not done while a woman is menstruating, anyone is sick, or unclean. Pilgrimage is not performed by those who have other obligations and cannot afford the cost. The sick and travelers do not fast. Neither do others while doing essential work. Belief in God is the only pillar essential to Islam. That is with God as witness, not men.

The belief in God as one and only is the essence of Islam. The rituals, clothing, food, and words do not make a Muslim, they only announce that one is Muslim. Fakes can claim to be Muslim, but Allah is all knowing. That is, Truth determines who is Muslim, not people, rituals, or customs. Fakes are accepted as fellow human beings even if we doubt their commitment, because only Allah decides, not other Muslims. We may gossip about fellow Muslims and even ask if they fast, pray, or give alms. We may ask of one if he/she has made Hag (pilgrimage), and even accept the epithet Hag appended to our names, but none of those constitute Islam. The true Muslim accepts God and the will of God. He does not tempt God by jumping over a cliff, or into a fire. He does not kill himself to get into paradise sooner. He does not violate ijtehad (reason). Muslims are human with many motives and assumptions not constituting Islam.

I leave bombs to mislead Muslims, and child molestation to errant Catholic priests. Mohammad, did marry Aysheh, a young woman before she began to menstruate, as was the custom in those days in that place (After all The Prophet was a normal man of his time.) The marriage may never have been consummated because, Aysheh had no children. Aysheh was a pretty strong headed girl with a will of her own. No ordinary man would propose to her family and no family would welcome such an independent female into their family by marriage. The Prophet offered her the status of marriage without interference with her strong headed nature. That is the justification for plural marriage in which one or all of the women are compliant with the sexual urge or timing of their husband’s libido expression. Some women today are never offered marriage by a suitable man and remain spinster all their lives, though they are sexually normal. It was The Prophet’s answer to their plea. ******

NOPE, NOT PRESELTYZING ISLAM AT ALL.

He’s either lying or confused.  He’s typing out italian and Romanian letters for no apparent reason.  Whatever.  You are right that he lies.  How many times has Frank stated the following:

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 16 at 12:35 pm #

*****“None of you have ever seen anything written by me that expressly invites you to be Muslim. I have never suggested that you ‘convert’ or become Muslim”.*******

But then he goes on and on about this fallacious “truth” is god idea…but not before he places his version of Islam into his very proseletyzing diatribes:

***I do not proselytize or preach. I invite all to discuss and to study the logic and propositions presented. If any should find that they are Muslim in fact because of acceptance, they are Muslim. They can join a congregation or remain solitaire believers. Nobody keeps watch over the Muslim except God. Muslims experience God from the inside, they do not impress God from the outside. It is not a Puck and Judy show with marionettes and strings.

The Muslim is guided by Truth (Al Haq). Allah guides whom he will. All else is ritual and show and tell.
The faith is that God chooses whom he will. I have faith that God accepts my shahada. I am Muslim.

I respect every person for what he or she is. I do have impressions and responses, but I do not ask anyone to be Muslim. If you wish to be Muslim, you can appeal to Allah, who is all knowing.****

Con’td

I still can’t read Franks crap…but I note in scanning the latest   that he made
some claims about his childhood.

Frank lies….like Glanno lied. Frank excuses his lies because he wants to make
a point. Bullshit.

Once you start lying you’re a liar. There’s no reason to believe anything Frank
says. Perhaps he gets orgasms seeing his name on a computer screen.

What did Frank lie about months ago? Some story about shooting a deer or a
moose.

And remember he said goodbye for at least the 3rd time. All true.

éèçà

éèçà

For the last time, truth is what truth is, not
necessarily what you say, what I say, what Mohammad
said, or what Jesus Christ said. Let us accept truth
and find out what is true. I find quite a variation
in what atheists say. Whose standard would you apply?
You say there is no God, period. I say, if there is
or not, truth is required. God is not. God is a word
first. It is a word used and misused to reference a
concept in the mind of humans who use the word.

The concept of God does not exist in the mind of a
true atheist. So atheists have only descriptive
references to call on to express what they say and
assumptions or rational conclusions. Truth should
ring a bell in the mind of anyone claiming anything
true. So if it is true that there is not God, you are
absolutely correct. However, if it is true that there
is a concept that truly fits the assumptions, it is
not true that there is no God. So I postulate that
the only idea that fits a concept of a God, is truth
itself. Not that truth is God, but that truth is
required by God if there is a God. And truth is
required by anyone who denies God if God does not
exist.

The only ones beating that horse are those who argue
with me and call me names. I am peaceful and
reasonable. Join me in peace and reason, and we have
no controversy. There is no controdiction when I say
that I accept all that is true, whether I believe it
or not. I can correct errors, even errors of long
standing and tenacious hold on the human race. Even
when I correct errors, I can, when found that I am
still in error, correct ill conceived corrections and
either go to new ideas that are correct, or return to
old ideas that were not in error. That is progress.
It is evolution in its best. In a physical
measurement one can go to ever more accurate
measurements, but can never reach absolute value
anywhere but in the concept of absolute value. Even in
the calculus, one never reaches an asymptotic value.
Asymptotic results in a concept of unreachable
infinity. Yet infinity is a usable concept. So is
truth. So is God, if you will. So is God, if you do
not will. Nit pick me to death and frustration, but
that is how it is. I elect truth first, and Islam, if
true. I practice the essence of Islam as a liberal
thinker, not as a slavish adherent of dogma and
superstition. I accept every human’s right to his or
her own ideas, whether true or not true. That is the
democratic spirit in a progressive world not tied to
dogmatic religion.

Sorry, but you are confused old man.  Islam believes in life after death; and the Qur’aan bears this out plainly.

I guess you will have to take your philosophy on Al-Haq..and ad hoc elsewhere.

Now to answer some specific questions. I do believe
in life after my death. Not for me personally, but
for all who come after me. There is absolutely no
convincing evidence that there is. Paradise, in
Islam, is fictitious of the time of reference. So are
all claims of redemption and grace or ancestor
worship.

I have covered the claim that I am proselytizing. If
presenting a rational for sensible belief is
proselytizein, you could say that I do that. But, I
don’t give a rat’s arse what you believe or do not
believe. I hope you do not give a damn what I
believe. Please do not try to convert me to your way
of ‘thinking’? Explain what you mean, but do not be
disturbed if I do not agree.

Aha! Ms./Mr. Simpleman (or Woman)makes sense because
he has discovered truth for a change. Lower order
truth, but truth nonetheless. Factual truth is that
he is quite right. I do not know where he goes from
here, but right on. True!

My alma mater was typical of the genre. I entered
college at age 22, when most students my age were
seniors or graduated already. My set back was four
years in the Army to get four years of college. Eight
years for an AB. My alma mater was one of the best
academically of the state schools. The only kind I
could afford.

I grew up in rural Missouri in a log cabin in the
woods. No electricity or any utility bills. Running
water was a nearby stream. The outhouse reeked.
Winters were miserable, but warm on the average. We
had a wood burning stove that needed wood. My job. We
planted vegetables in summer. Not me. My job was to
pick off the worms from the tomato plants and to
pluck the tomatoes just as they began to turn red. We
had other labor intensive crops which I tended.

Graduated high school as the only HS student in my
rural district that year. No money, ignorant of academia,
but determined to ‘go to college’ where I
could get an education. I thought education was what
you needed to get a high paying job. Not so.

By the time I graduated with a B average, on my own.
No fraternity, no relatives with degrees or
expertise, I followed the curriculum and passed the
Western Civilization requirement, English proficiency
exam, and distribution requirements. I majored in a
science field and received an AB degree because my
school granted only AB degrees to graduates of the
College of Liberal Arts. Only Engineers, Pharmacy
majors, and certain others got BS degrees.

I was an independent student and shunned girls from
the sororities, not because they were not attractive,
but because they always looked the other way when
they saw an independent student on campus. In class
they talked over me or jostled me through the doors.
I showered everyday, brushed my teeth twice a day,
and got a haircut when I could afford it. I drank one
beer a week and roomed off campus with a pre-law
student. I never saw a file of all exams or even one
exam. I actually read the assignments of Western
Civilization, a self study course required by the
Junior year. I passed the English proficiency test
first try in sophomore year. I had a total of 4
semester hours of credit graded D and the rest C to A
for an average of B according to grade point average. 

My annual salary in the first year out of college was
at the rate of $3,300 for the first months and rose
to $3,780 after six months. Then I found a better
job at $5,000 a year. That would translate to $33,200
now with average inflation over the years.  That is
$8.12 per hour on a 40 hour week, which was rare for
me as I always worked by the year, not the hour. My
annual pay was divided by 12 to get the monthly
paycheck.

Though I never had a high salary job, I did manage to
retire from the Army in rank of Major (politics). My
total retirement income is now about $85,000 per year
including my medical care and other benefits. A lot
of people make over $20 per hour who never went to
college. They earn it by doing work honestly, or
manipulating the system effectively.

I am not a product of privilege or family
connections. I suspect that Mr. Simpleman could offer
a similar path. My hat is off to you. Pardon me for
my faux pas and ridicule of your postings. Actually,
I just reacted to your insults and ridicule of me and
my ideas. Others on this site who have no effective
education also ridicule me, but I consider the source
and sometimes enjoy a jab or two in the stellar
regions of their minds. Actually, I respect all signs
of excellence of thought, even if limited to lower
truth and facts.

I have always thought that his input here was pretty transparent.  Every speech is riddled with the sound of a sermon.  And as you stated, Simpleman, his last was riddled with innuenendo regarding all of us, but mainly you.  He has stayed here to convert others to Islam..withour without the lie of “I am not here to convert anyone”....

Then what are you doing here Frank? No one cares about your idiot truth.  Now two of us are asking you:

Frank, do you believe in an afterlife existence?

Ah ha!  Frank is trying to incense me!  He usually resorts to insults when he is cornered.  You must be cornered, Frank, just like a stamp on a letter.  Try to forget about the cerebrocortex, you are thinking with your sphincter and that will, indeed, wilt the flowers.  Also, be careful.  With your nose so far up like that, you are exposing your neck.  Your mental processes are not actually complicated, but they are contorted and it is a shame that you can’t see the difference.  I do see truth for what it is.  You, on the other hand, are trying to defend your diety, El Haq, even after you have agreed that there is no god.  You avoid questions with conundrums as though you are trying to influence judges in a debate when you are cornered. 
Frank, do you believe in an afterlife existence?

On a different note…

As demonstrated by the recent economic meltdown, our society is built upon the principles of lie, cheat and steal.  Our theist friends blame this moral breakdown to various causes: gays, atheists, liberals, hippies, ...  The real root of this so called immorality is built right into our system.  We’ve often heard that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and we accept this as just the way things are.  I’ll give you one reason this is systemic, and not accidental. 
One of the highest values in our way of life is a college degree.  The people with college degrees dictate the terms of society to everyone else.  To graduate at the top of your class is a highly valued thing.  Generally speaking, these people are members of fraternal organizations (FO) and that is not by coincidence.  These fraternal organizations have in their files, copies of all the exams of all the professors of all of the colleges.  The members of these fraternal organizations are tutored on the tests they are about to take.  The honorable thing would be for the students to refuse this tutoring and do it on their own, but then they would be shunned and called independents.  It would be stupid to jeopardize your future by not studying these exams.  And there you have it: honor is identified with stupidity!!  Of course, to get into these fraternal organizations, you have to be sponsored, but if your parents were members of a particular FO, you have an “in”.  These parents are rich and part of “the establishment” because of their college degrees and they want their offspring to be successful also.  Poor people don’t know what is going on and they continue to suffer under the heels of the educated.

Thus, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in a system where honor is equated with stupidity and cheating is equated to success.  Who sustains this corrupt system?  The rich families who mostly proclaim to be good xians or hebrews. 

I realize that this is overly simplified, and there and numerous exceptions to the rule, but I am just trying to make a point that it is the sytem is to blame, not they gays, atheists, liberals, hippies, ...  Our academic system is not the only one that is at fault, do your own research on Masons, Knights of Columbus, Lions and other organizations that exist to serve the public.  See how well their members prosper as compared to those that they serve.  Check out the United Way, the Red Cross and other admirable charities.  Find out how much of the money they collect goes into the pockets of the officers and non-volunteers as administrative costs and how much actually goes into the communities that they serve.  Make your own list, and don’t forget self serving organizations such as the AMA.

PS: Here’s a personal health care cost story I encountered.  I once had to make monthly visits to my doctor and each time the office charge would be higher than the previous month.  When I asked about this, I found out that one of the main reasons was that the rental on the medical building kept going up.  When I asked why the rent wasn’t fixed for some period of time, I discovered that their rent was based upon a percentage of the previous month’s profit.  I couldn’t understand why anybody would accept such an agreement.  Then I discovered that the building was owned by a closed private corporation.  The stockholders of this corporation just happened to be the doctors who occupied the building.  Nothing was illegal about this setup, but it is just one more illustration of how our lying, cheating society is bilking the poor and raising the cost of our health care.  PS: none of these doctors were professed atheists, but were instead pillars of the church and community.

A certain simplistic comment implies that complicated
mental processes are abhorrent to simpletons. Dah!
Not surprising. Simpletons should not indulge in mind
boggling. It may overheat the cerebrocortex. It may
even inflame the brain stem and cause all the flowers
to wilt. The hypothalamic complex may malfunction to
cause an aversion to your mother-in-law. Mothers-in-
law are more complicated than your average woman
verging on a mean average of the coefficients of
variation of all relevant factors.

Simpletons are useful in production. They can perform vital functions without batting an eye. They make fabulous farmers and day care providers.
However, they should never be philosophers, though
they could be fundamentalist preachers of the gospel. Atheistic simpletons are rare, but not unknown. They tend toward the simplistic atheistic assumption—if you can’t see truth, it does not exist. If you believe there is no God, there is none. However, if you see truth, any simpleton could respond: There ain’t no such thing! You can’t be two things at one time except numb and number.

The error is the same one that caused ancients to
believe that God created all that is in a set
sequence in time. It is belief that only dynamic
action is a cause. The reference to a First Cause or
a Divine Mover posits a dynamic God who moves and
even speaks your language.

Cause has a deeper meaning that does not link to
mechanical engineering concepts. Where Efficient
Cause meshes with dynamic cause belongs in science,
not philosophy. Just how the language of DNA
translates into a dynamic effect due to the message
may never be known, only that it does. Sequential
links seem to govern, but higher truth reveals a
system more subtle than direct cause and effect. Some
communication between processes and sequences is
evident, but no physical radio waves or sound waves
are detectable. A similar situation involves computer
science. The gates function without physical
communication, but must interact with the dichotomy
principles in digital science. Gates are either on or
off. Multiple gates act in sequential relevance, but
the action is instantaneous due to principle, not
cause and effect. The dynamic consequence is our
manifestation, but not our reason.

You either get it or you don’t.  What you get may not
be what you want, but if you learn to live with
truth, you can benefit immensely. Dynamic cause and
effect are not the sole stuff of truth and
consequences. Higher truth spans all time and space
whether they are finite or infinite. Petty truth is
dynamic and may be impressive as a waterfall. Higher
truth is more impressive and instantaneous. Love of
reason, philosophy, is not the same as love of your
parents. Love for your wife is not quite the same as
love for your children. Yet we use the same four
letter word.

Disclaimer: This is not intended to belittle science
as a lower discipline or to elevate biologic messages
to the divine, yet the connection of higher truth and
dynamic truth justifies the inquiry. I consider my
computer to be a functioning interface between
dynamic truth and higher truth. The analogies are
obvious. So are the analogies of function of DNA in a
dynamic biologic evolution process of creation.

Frank, your complicated mind is confusing you.  You started out searching for a god you could believe in.  You finally settled on St Anselm’s description of God as that to which nothing could be higher.  Then you eventually settled on your concept of truth as fitting that description.  Then you made truth a self-directing essence that you could now call God;  i.e. God is Truth and Truth is God.  You said that nobody has ever been able to disprove your ramblings, but I suspect you have selective memory.  In your diagolues with Greensnake, et. al., your finally realized and stated that there is no god.  If there is no god, then truth is reduced to the concept everyone else accepts.  Truth may always be everlastingly true for such things as the value of pi, but historically speaking truth is simply the result of the outcome of interaction between random factors and influences.  No selfdirecting “it” preordains these outcomes.  No Truth “it” determines anything!  It is only a passive result.  Now, please stop using arguments for truth and applying them to an “it” you call “Truth”

My advise to David is to google “Bible”, where he will find that there are over a hundred versions (rewrites) of the Bible.  Many are translations to other languages which he will probably find reason to dismiss, but just in the English language, he will find the KJV, the NIV, the New American version, the RCC version, the Mormon version, etc.  They don’t all have the same books in them.  If he reads just the first couple chapters of any version of Genesis, he will discover that there are two conflicting versions of the creation story in the same version.  These creation stories are what the Creationists want to teach in our public schools as the xian version of creation.  I believe it is the second version that they are promoting.  They point to so called missing links in the Theory of Evolution, but do not acknowledge the contradictions in their own source material.

This coming from a man whose only answer to any question is “truth this, truth that”.

You have been here how long?  And you haven’t even contributed a penny’s worth.

“It would be great if you registered and joined in the
debate with us instead of just coming in to throw in
about .02 cents worth of insults and nonsense.”

Consider the source. Once registered, I suppose it
gives you the license.

Hi David!  Welcome to this thread.  It would be great if you registered and joined in the debate with us instead of just coming in to throw in about .02 cents worth of insults and nonsense.

Having stated that, I highly recommend you take a remedial course in history to find out just what did go on in the past with the Bible.  And yes, I do believe that it was retranslated many times- in fact that has been proven and is on record.  The RCC had plenty of reason for this.  Money. And there riches and power have proven that it works. 

Let me recommend a book to you that is in print right now…relatively new, and available in all bookstores.  “Misquoting Jesus” -by Bart Ehrman.  Try to bear in mind that he is smarter than we are when it comes to these things, and that when he began he was an evangelical Christian.  What he found out was more than daunting for him.  So, he wrote about it. 

What does Harry Potter have to do with all of this?  You just kind of came in and swerved a curve ball out of nowhere.  Explain, please.  Do you just hate atheists because they attack the core of who you believe you are, or because they attack your imaginary friend?  If it’s the latter, you’re in the majority—join the other sheeple who come here.  If it’s the former, then at least you’re honest.

W: My question to this hero and the hundreds of thousands of heroes like him, in heaven, will be, knowing what you know now, would you sacrifice so much for the land of America-hating parasites and ingrates that we have become? Don’t you feel stupid for patriotically sacrificing so much for your country? Would you do it all over again? Do you have any idea what Xtheists think of America and their level of contempt for its white Christians?

S: He died for you!  Would you have him regret that?  He died for your friends on conservative talk radio and television.  I’ll bet he would regret that!!  Dying is simply the end of living.  There is no heaven, so this dead soldier no longer exists to have any regrets, pride or any other emotion.  We all die sooner or later.  How we live and for what cause we die is a personal choice (except for accidental deaths).  I served during the Vietnam War.  Thankfully, I am still alive.  What did you do to earn your inheritance coming from soldiers such as you describe?

Cop out!

Questions:

1. Why do people kill over turf?

2. Why do people kill over ideology?

3. Why do people kill over jealousy?

4. Why do people kill animals to eat?

5. Why do people kill over anything?

Answer to all: Beats me!

Questions:

1. Why do people call me vulgar names and epithets
and use expletives to challenge me?

2. Why do I tolerate it?

3. Will it ever end?

4. Why does anyone reject truth?

5. Why does anyone find truth incredible?

Answer: Beats me!

Question: Why do people kill in the name of a religion?

Beats me!

All sounds alot like an unneccessary religion to me.  And if Mohammed is not a god then why kill people over funny cartoons about him?  He was just a man.  So, why is he sooo revered that man’s blood is shed over a fucking cartoon?  I want to know.  Answer.

Since you obviously do not understand that Al Haq is
Allah, you join the billions who believe that God is
not Allah and that Allah is not God. Christian Arabs
use the same name for God that Muslim Arabs use,
Allah. It is true that most Muslims do not get the
significance of Al Haq, as another name for Allah. It
is not like the other 98 ‘names’ found in the Qu’ran.
Most are attributes, rather than identities. After
all, a name is not the person, but an identity. You
may be Jack, but your friends may call you Red (if
you have red hair). Red is an attribute to your
physical appearance, not a name as such. Get off the
trivial pursuit. Truth is not trivial pursuit.
Neither is religion, though many observe their
religion outwardly as ritual and dogma rather than as
truth. Atheism is not trivial as it addresses
fundamental contradictions in all religions where
ritual is given more light than reason. Islam is no
different. All schisms have to do with
misunderstanding and all rituals have to do with
keeping the faithful. Most religions have spokesmen,
people who claim to know more about the reasons for
religion than the ordinary person. Roman Catholics
even have a hierarchy of the priesthood with a Pope
(Holy Father) at the top. The nuns have a Mother
Superior to preside over the ‘lower’ humans, the
females of our species. Imams are mostly self
appointed men who have read or even memorized the
words of the Qu’ran. Most never give a real thought
to the words, phrases, and sentences. Take the matter
of worship of idols. Who do you know who can
comprehend idols as any man made image presented as
Holy? That is explicit in the Qu’ran. Yet, Muslims
rank the three holiest sites of Islam, as Mecca,
Medina, and Jerusalem. Those are all man made. Most
Muslims consider the mosque as holy, yet they are man
made. Most Muslims consider prayer as required,
though some are exempt. Most Muslims place fasting on
a high plane of significance, yet some are exempt at
times and other exempt completely. Most Muslims hold
alms as a requirement. But, it is only a requirement
from those with accumulated wealth. Income is not
wealth, but it represents wealth, because a job is an
asset. Women with no wealth or income give no alms.
Many Muslims try to make the Haj. But, if you cannot
afford it or are unable physically make the trip, you
are exempt.

All Muslims take the shahada very seriously and even
understand it. But, many believe that you must recite
the shahada to another human being to make it
official with Allah. Not so! Reciting the shahada
during the wedding ceremony is to satisfy human
beings that you are qualified for an Islamic
marriage. Reciting the shahada before entry into
Mecca or Medina is to give evidence that you are
qualified to enter. But, the shahada before Allah in
the silence of your soul proves to Allah that you
accept Islam.

None of the rituals are necessary to Islam, but only
as a public announcement to facilitate human
enterprise in religions. All the traditions, rituals,
and ceremonies, function to facilitate human
activities. I say that priests, nuns, preachers,
rabbis, shamans, and Gurus, are not necessary to
their own religions, but are useful to facilitate
affairs of the human activity associated with the
religions.

Most true theists believe that God, by whatever name,
is all knowing. That is: has and needs no
intermediary human being to administer belief. That
silent affirmation is as powerful as vocal and ritual
acts. Even The Prophet, when asked the value of
prayer in a mosque, said that one prayer in a mosque
is better than ten prayers in public. When asked the
value of prayer, he said that one silent prayer in
the heart is better than a hundred prayers anywhere
else. (Paraphrased)

Islam is not the sum of all errors in belief, but the
one belief that there is One God and Mohammad is a
prophet (NOT GOD!) All else is ritual and dogma.

Warren,
It is going to take some time for me to catch up here, but this is a starter.
I started out poor and xian, and I am now a poor, but enlightened Xtheist (I like this new term!!).  I more fully enjoy my poor life now that I don’t have to spend most of my time worrying about going to hell. By the way, why are there so many rich evangelists telling people about heaven and hell, and ignoring their own teachings?  If they truly believed themselves, there is no temptation on earth that would make them want to risk eternal damnation for any reason.  You may say that the flesh is weak, but a strong spirit is supposed to be able to overcome temptations with the help of their savior.  Think about it.
I also take umbrance at some of your language.  I gave 8 years of my life during the Vietnam war to serve this country.  I am not in any way a traitor!!
W: But why else would a rich man abandon the morals and ethics, normally learned in his youth and its religion, once he is wealthy?
S: Rich has nothing to do with it.  A vast majority of us have been inundated with false teachings in our youth by our unenlightened parents and the selfserving religious establishments.  As an Xtheist, I have not abandoned morals and ethics I have learned.  I simply do not need the fear of eternal damnation to practice them.
W: He finds himself betraying the religion of his ancestors and most likely, his parents. As an atheist, he must now view his parents, mother and father, as stupid for their religion.
S: Your use of the word “betraying” is both ignorant and biased.  My parents bodies are now interred.  They no longer exist except in memories of we who loved them and objects they produced that still exist.  There is no soul; there is no heaven; there is no hell.  We will never be reunited.  Dying is simply the last thing we do in life.  My parents were not stupid, they simply did not have the opportunity or inclination to examine their religion or their religious practices.  In their day and age, religion was all powerful and censored any media that exposed religion for its excesses, curruption, and contradictions.  When such things did get published they were only available to acedemia and relagated to locked back rooms in libraries.  My parents were therefore ignorant of these things, but not stupid.
W: He has to develop contempt for all the sacrifices of all European Christians who left their native land to develop the land of the free and all its opportunities, opportunities that served him well,
S: Most of those European xians were considered to be cultists in their native countries.  They came to this land to be free to practice their cult beliefs, and you are simply following what you learned from them.

Frank! Frank! Frank!

Mumbo - Jumbo!!  Boogie - Boogie -Boogie!!!

You claim to believe in Islam, but you don’t accept all of it.  Therefore
you must be trying to establish your own Islamic cult.  You support the
EL Haq aspect of Allah, but not most of the rest of it.  By doing so, you
are elevating El Haq and diminishing Allah.  Does your Imam really
support this?  About a year ago, in your dialogues with Greensnake, you
finally succombed and agreed that there is no god and therefore TRUTH cannot be god. 
Did you forget?  Why are backsliding into the same old worn out mantras?
Are you getting senile?  Wake up and smell the coffee, nobody is buying
into your new cult!

Yes!  After the fourth time..absolutely!

No!

We’ve been right here Frank.  It’s just that after reading a couple lines of the same thing over again, we asleep.  “Truth is whether god is truth is true or is it not true”.....zzzzzzzz

It is true that truth does not require God. Atheists
affirm that it is true that there is no God. I have
written that so many time that I wonder where most of
you have been. It is not true because I say it, for
it was true before I came into this life. It is true
in all time whether time is finite or infinite. Truth
does require truth itself. If you believe that it is
not true that there is a valid concept of truth, that
can only be true if there is truth, so it must be
true that there is truth. If there is truth it cannot
be true that there is no truth.

Whether there is God or no God, depends upon truth.
If God, then truth. If no God, then truth. Truth
whether there is God or no God. So truth is higher
than God if God is not truth itself. You can say that
God depends upon God, but truth is required by truth, God
is not.

Atheists depend upon truth for their assertion. So
atheists cannot reject truth. Only a blithering idiot
could say that nothing is true and that there is no
truth. However, astute and sensible atheists can say
with qualified validity that there is no God. What
they mean is that God and truth cannot be separate.
If no separate God in truth, then both God and truth
or truth only. If truth only, then the highest
concept is truth and no God concept is necessary. If
God is the highest concept then truth must be God.
God is not necessary, but truth is. A belief in God
is superfluous because truth of such belief depends
on truth. You do not need God if you comprehend
truth, but if you comprehend truth, you comprehend
truth as God. Take your choice.

Please keep it clean.

Finished “Don’t sleep there are snakes.” This man spends 30 years with one
“tribe” in the Amazon and is there to only learn their language so he can write
the New Testament in their language. 30 years later he has made no headway
in spite of translating at least Mark and putting it on tape players for everyone
to listen to over and over again.

Total converts zero. Total converts over 300 years (yes 300) Zero. Why?
Because these people don’t believe in anything they hear unless the person
telling them witnessed it. Hence they’ve seen no virgin births, resurrection,
raising of the dead and on andon and on.

And wht haqppens to the Bible bound author?
He thinks about his tribe…and thinks about it….
And becomes on of us! Hot damn!

Yikes!  Ole Frank sure spanked the kiddies.

Religion is like soda pop, all sweet and yummy, goes down easy, but it rots the teeth, and toasts the brain.  Kids like soda for the same reason morons like religion - stupidity, ignorance, and inexperience.

Please Frankie baby stop quoting Thomas Aquinas.  He like all the saints, popes, priest, and like sinners assume god exists, and must exist.  IE - they believe the universe cannot exist without god.  Thus all the theology is biased, and can’t really be taken seriously.

How if you do not accept the koran as the direct word of god, passed to us through mohammed unaltered, uninterpreted, unfiltered, in perfection, that you concider yourself a muslim?  How other than through the word of god in the form of the koran are we to know how to be a muslim?

Frank reminds me of christians who try to make their god something he is not, who cherry pick the texts, never confronting the contradictions and vagueness and outright falsehoods in the texts of the faith.

No numbers of the faithfull will ever make the god abraham a loving god, a kind god, or good.  He is according to the texts, that which is presented as evidence of his existence, a vile petulant, abuser.  Whoreshiping this god, is like being a slave who thanks his master for the abuse and captivity he offers.

Faith is accepting slavery of the soul, of the mind, and finally of the body.

Religion has no place in a rational logical society based on respect and acceptance.  Until that society is created, we the dedicated few must carry on the fight.  A forcefull reaction the faith peddlars in the midst of our world is best.

To those afraid to join us on the sunny side of the street, come we will help you over come the wounds.

liar liar pants on fire.

Frank, that’s a good point.  If we are all so beneath it all, and beneath you and your mental masturbatory ramblings…why don’t you fuck on off to another forum where this sort of thing is discussed?  Oh! That’s right…no one else talks about such ridiculous blah blah. ?

Keep pasting Frank…I weuld imagine that most of us will not spend time reading  
or responding to you.  Since we are so laimbrainded why not try your stuff out
where the people are smarter?

I mean you are really making yourself out to be the idiot among us by pounding
your head on a brick wall like a little kid wanting a Popsicle.

Archeon was right….juvenille logic…juvenille tantrum..guess Mom let you whine a
lot…still doing it .

Since most here reject both truth and logic, it is
impossible to have a truly intellectual discussion.
Those are the bases of all genuine debate. Some
equate vulgar words and insults with substantial
support for their cause.

I am in agreement with all true statements seen here.
I agree without qualification that I do not know some
fact to be true. Get the distinction. What is true is
true. Simplistic and child-like? Wonderful! I want
children to be uncontaminated with adult errors and
confusion.

Ever notice how your algebra teacher taught you to
‘simplify’ an equation until the solution was
obvious? I take you down that same road to simplify
your belief or a faith until truth is obvious. Thomas
Aquinas said in ‘Summa Theologica’ “God is simple.” 
I understand that. God is not complex or mysterious.
Unknown in image, form, and origin, but known in
simple language of essence of being. Truth is not as
complex as color red. Neither is God. All attempts by
theologicians to render a deity as complex and not
comprehensible, then to proceed to describe in lurid
detail incredible functions and acts, a ‘person’ of
God, are doomed to failure.

If God can be known by theologians, then God can be
known by children and idiots. In fact, I believe
children and idiots may just have a better
understanding than my college professor of
philosophy. Imagine trying to render the equation x =
y in all possible instances where y = x. Then
consider that any term raised to the zero power
(exponential) is unity. Nothing is simpler than that.
But how many people know it? It is not a fact to be
memorized, but an innate function of the exponential
power of zero.

So all your vulgar words and commands cannot move me
to perform the impossible sex acts you demand. They
also do not move me to give up my quest for reason
and a basis for my faith in truth. I call Truth God
for the same reason Thomas Aquinas called God Truth.
Now I wonder what reason Paul (of New Testament) used
to believe that Jesus is God? Or what the Nician
council used to declare that God consists of a
Godhead of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit?

I do know what reason Sam Harris used to decide that
most religious ideas of God could be debunked with
common sense and rule out a Deity so derived. Sam
never got to a consideration that there is a God and
that even little children could comprehend if given a
chance uncontaminated with adult drivel about virgin
births, and bodily accent into physical heaven,
personal redemption, and everlastinglife. Anyone who
can accept biological evolution surely could accept
truth as the driving force behind it. Not only is it
true as a fact but of a higher comprehension of truth
applicable where life does not exist in our form.

Keep talking, but keep it clean and respectable. Use
sarcasm, but keep it benign. Call me on errors, but
do not insult my intent.

The confusion seems to be in the failure to
differentiate the institutional church from the
essence of the religion. I have covered that in
detail in previous posts that most who visit this
sight must have passed over without notice.

I compared it to the schisms of the Christian
religion in denominations over such trivial pursuits
as to the kind of instruments allowed in the services
of a church. I compared it to the recognition of
qualifications for priesthood or ministry. I compared
it to doctrinal disputes over the Eucharist, baptism,
and marriage. I separated the essence of Islam from
the schisms in that faith and the pillars of the
faith. I appealed to the mentality of the reader
rather than my ‘authority’ on the subject. I even
accepted the need to trivialize in order to keep most
people without intellectual capacity to differentiate
in line morally and functionally.

However, I always faulted religions that resort to
personal torture and killing to propagate the
‘faith’. I fault, equally, Christian forms of
physical restraint and punishment such as burning at
the stake for heresy and other crimes against the
belief system as it developed. I fault political and
academic acts that deny freedom and justice to people
of all religions, but do not reject state punishment
for crimes. I only propose justice and human rights
as the criteria, not adherence to archaic or
distorted concepts of law and justice. I reject
religious control of the state and state control of
religion. I accept state control of crimes in the
name of religion. I condemned the acts of the
terrorists who brought down the NYTC towers and the
Nazi regime that instigated the ‘final’ solution
against Jews, mental patients, Gypsies, and other
undesirables.

Most are blanket condemnations of stupidity rather
than specific condemnation of identified acts of
malice in the name of religion or political entities.

To restrict my embrace of Islam to the essence of
Islam, I reject all forms of mind control, coercion,
preaching, punishment, and superstition. Most of you,
if honest, can remember my dealing with the matter of
the virgin birth of Jesus. It was presented in a
sarcastic tone intended to expose the ridiculous
belief in a virgin birth, maturation of Jesus into an
image of God. and resurrection of the body of Christ. 
You could remember when I ridiculed the birth of
Isaac, son of Abraham, to an 80+ woman, Sarah. I
implied or even charged that the first attempt at
surrogate motherhood failed when Hagar refused to
give up ‘her’ child, Ishmail. Then a second attempt
when she was advanced in age succeeded and Isaac
inherited the birthright of Abraham. Even Muslims
accept the ruse, but transform the identities of
Isaac and Ishmail when it is necessary to propagate
the details of the faith as a purification of the
religion of Abraham.

I did not try to bring Islam to anyone here. I tried
to show you the open door to reason and let you
decide for yourselves. Only when you ridiculed my
approach with personal attacks did I respond with
attempts at clarification.

I take the nature of Prophets as those human beings
who, with reason and comprehension, bring a
purification of the message they get by reason.
Reason comes directly from truth and consequences.
Reading superstition and dogmatic church doctrine
into my presentations is wrong and I resent it. I am
not a defender of error, even my own. Most of the
errors of Islamic versions over time are influenced
by superstition and beliefs current at another time
before enlightenment of the masses and even the
academics. Religion should be an ongoing attempt to
correct errors and to right wrong views, not to
invoke fundamental mistakes as doctrine not subject
to review and emendation.

Peace!

Archeon…enjoyed your post.

Changing the subject….

Have listened to some very enlightening lectures on the religious wars (Taliban
etc) that cannot be won on earth (unless will jkill every one of them) because
they are wars won only in heaven.

Which is why suicide bombers bomb and take down buildings and why abortion
haters kill to..well to stop the killing…and I assume they kill to be rewarded
too. I’ll try to get a link. Also mentioned…the fact that many of our troops were
handing out bibles in Iraq…nice huh..kill ‘em and insult ‘em. Christian right in
the military and no one seems to be stopping them. Can’t get more disgraceful
than that.

Also reading a great book by a once born-again linguist who lived with a tribe
in South America off and for 20 years. The Pirahã Indians of the Amazon do not
consider the past or the future. If as man walks out of sight he walks “out of
experience.”  (What a gereat observation) The only history they have is from one
who has experienced something first hand. The name of the book is “Don’t
sleep there are snakes” I’m only 1/4 through the book but my guess is that the
author’s Christianity went right out the window.It’s fast moving read.

Many of us have the same religious belief system in terms of the past. If we
haven’t seen it or experienced it…we just don’t believe it.

I have always admired primitive cultures who are as much a part of this planet
as the insects. (Even we athesists don’t fit the category) And most are more
Christlike (the good side of the man) than most Christians will ever achieve.

and now for a laugh for the non homophobes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzbNkyXO50

Archeon: “Funny how Frank never actually responds to real
commentary on religion.”

I noticed this myself.  At first I thought that he was just an elder who liked to come here and journalise since he never answers the real questions about Islam all the while claiming to be Muslim.  The questions about how Islam IS violent and how clerics are very clear about Islam’s intent to take over the entire world.  Frank skirts this issue while pretending that he is peaceful, and doesn’t believe in heaven and hell.  That used to bother me a little.  But after listening to a video by Pat Condell regarding how Amsterdam-and the Netherlands on the whole used to be so peaceful before Islam took over via Sharia Law..it makes sense.  Islam is deceitfully leading everyone quietly to their own demise.  It’s all rather deceptive to me, but I do see through Frank’s piety now.  And I believe I understand just what he’s doing.  He’s attempting to soften Islam.

The trouble with Fank’s truth crap, is that his logic
and reasoning are that of a child, and ultimately his
constant droning on about it is boring to the n-th
degree.

It is also the reasoning and logic of a child.  It is
circular and self referencing, reflecting only Franks
simplistic assumptions about what the “god” “faith”
and “religion” debate is about.

Franks semantic games might be of interest if this
were a debate about philosophy, but it is not. 
Religion barely makes it out of the doldrums of
drivel, and never reaches the elevated heights of
being an actual phylosophical system.

Cosmological and theological systems are usually
founded on one principle: the existence of a
creator/superior being who for the lack of a better
term is god.  This is particularly true of the
abrahamic systems of belief.  The existence of
christianity, islam, and judaism is predicated on the
existence of this “god”.  When one speaks of a
christian, muslim, or jew one speaks of a person who
believes that this divinity exists.  It must also be
assumed that these believers also believe in the
divine nature of the texts (bible, torah, koran) as
these are ultimately the only “proof” of the
existence of the aforementioned god or of his
prophets who claim to speak on his/her/its behalf.

Funny how Frank never actually responds to real
commentary on religion.  When he can’t shovel the
“truth” bullshit, he tries to dismiss others by
picking on peculiarities of spelling, grammar,
language.  This is a technique commonly used by empty
headed pseudo intellectuals, who when confronted with
reality and TRUTH counter with form rather than
substance.

If god exists he might well be “truth” or a host of
other less admirable things.
If god does not exist, well then obviously god is not
truth. Yet as we would continue to exist even if god
did not exist because well we do exist, so would
“truth”.  Linking god to “truth” is as stupid as
linking HIM with “love”.

For the umpteenth time: saying: “I don’t believe in
god” is not the same as saying: “I believe god does
not exist.”  I don’t believe in god.  That being
said, I do not believe that the god of the bible, the
torah, or the koran could exist.  This god is an
obvious manufactured creature created by
superstitious goat herders to explain the
universe/world/village/valley….

Considering that the texts this god sent to us
utterly failed to provide any guidance re
reproduction, disease, genetics, electricity,
radiation, the structure of the atom, subatomic
particles, quantum mechanics, brain function,
calculus…..one has to wonder what did this god
actually know.  Being all knowing, he would have
known even before he created us that we would
discover these things, and perhaps would need
guidance from him.  He would have also known how
fucked up we were, and scraped the whole project
because we are so flawed that we are beyound divine
redemption.  Furthermore, if god is perfect why would
he create imperfect beings that he would know before
creating would suffer tremendously from the
imperfections HE created in us? Or does god not
exist, and we are actually the product of the
universe as natural as the sun, the stars, the
planets.  That we exist simply because we do.  There
is not purpose, no reason, just being.

Frank go fuck yourself, your primitive religion is
truely dangerous.  You by proclaiming to be a muslim
are culpable in the evil that is done in the name of
islam, you bear an equal shame and guilt as all the
other muslims for the evil done in allah’s name by
muslims.

All you religious freaks go fuck your selves, your
religions are evil, and you are all guilty of
religious crimes simply by being believers.  You are
accountable, and you must pay the price.  Well you do
by being simpletons and morons - and slaves.

Yes, SNED.  But is the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH? :D

Frank, I am a foul mouthed bitch in life; why change on the net to suit others?  It’s English.  Studies show that’s a huge part of the English language, and is not necessarily a bad thing, rather it can be a good thing because it exercises anger without physical assault. And when I get pissed off, I like to acclamate my English skills.   You understand so I can assume you’ve heard it allllll before. 

Warren was an offense.  He brought out the real bitch in me..in less than two lines.  His bad, not mine.

Annie I was attending weddings, watching my equipment die in the humidity and
not trying too hard to get my e mail or be online. To bad I had to come back to
Frank. And that is the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The
TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the
TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH!
The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The
TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!the TRUTH! The TRUTH!

HAH!

Repetition, repetition, repetition.

All the vulgar words and epithets, all the sicko
comments of Glenno, all the low life assumptions of
most of those who post here. Read one and you get the
rest. Logic and reason escaped down a rat hole of
superstition and logical fallacy. Syntax and grammar
slain by the scimitar of semantics and double barreled
shotgun of duplicity.

I note even Annie comes to life with the challenges
of a new thought and paradigm. She cleans it up and
even presents as thoughtful and human. She leaves her
gutter language and actually makes sense. That is
until she realizes that her purpose is not to engage
but to insult.

Warren presents his kindergarten reasoning with some
aplomb. He appeals to a better spirit and bares his
soul to our better natures. He even bares his sexual
prowess with the inexperienced women of his
encounters. Fortunately, Glenno keeps his mind in the
outhouse where it belongs. All he can see or smell is
crap. Did you ever wonder why chocolate cake is
digested faster than other foods? It does not have to
undergo a color change.

Color my comments honest. Thanks for the attention guys! Insults are better than no attention at all. It is better to have a sick sense than no sense at all. Gutter language works well in the gutter.

Well, if it isn’t the ever missed SNED!  I thought you went MIA.  You know, that last post of Frank’s almost makes truth appear to be science.  Physics and such.  But as far as the repetition of it, Stephen King says that’s what hell is…repetition. :D

*Storm of the Century*

Frank…why don’t you take the next week to copy and paste all the “crap” you
posted from January thru June…while we sit and rest knowing full well that you
convinced no one but yourself of your theory of truth. Not GreenSnake, not
Annie, not me, not Archeon, Simpleman…and not Glenno and others.(My
apologies for leaving anyone out)

Glenno at least took a promised rest…But you came back to haunt and recover
old ground like we never existed. Like we changed but you didn’t. You had your
chance Frank….as an old adult intellectual why can’t you get it…that repetition
doesn’t make things true or correct or right. Hence the world is no longer flat.
Hence those of us here still don’t believe your truth is IT story.

Illusion, delusion, confusion, distortion, deception,
censorship, propaganda, education, and perception.
The human mind tries to control what is true by means
of all forms of political, academic, and social
maneuvers to influence what is believed. Only one is
legitimate: reason controlled by logic. Truth is not
“...crap…” subject to manipulation to suit belief
or assumptions. The assumption that truth is beyond
the control of all mental activity and human
intervention, is to deny validity of reason. It is true that facts are under some
control within the limits of possibility. Thus you
can choose to fire a gun at another human or not to
do so. You can choose to jump off a cliff or high
building, or choose not to. This is not an
alternation of truth, but foolish acts of self
destruction or violence. Truth guarantees the
consequences of success in such maneuvers of physical
power. No matter whether truth is God himself, a god
or demon, good or bad, it is truth that rules all
existence and acts. Truth also rules all
relationships and consequences of acts.

Deists call the power of truth, God. Atheists call
the power of truth, reason. Agnostics accept truth,
but deny any involvement. Liars distort facts by
using truth against reason for the purpose of
deception. Self-deceivers use truth to override their
own errors. Finally, politicians and advertisers use
truth to deceive the thinkers. One of the ten
commandments says not to take the name of God in
vain. Vanity comes from the word vain. Vain means
self deception. All who believe in a distortion of
the concept of God are vain. It was deception that
was the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Evil.
They deceived themselves and each other after being
deceived by the serpent. They believed what is not
true. The simplistic story carries the lesson of
deception of others and self deception.

The intent of religion is to align human acts with
truth and consequences of error. It is no stretch of
reason to see the evolutionary advantage of this in
the improvement of human affairs. Simplistic stories
of the Bible and other holy books tend to improve the
human condition little by little. Atheistic thought
is also an attempt to improve human affairs by
perfection of reason over superstition. That also has
an evolutionary effect of advantage of higher mental
capacity. Atheist should reject error, but not truth
itself. To believe what is not true is a sin, but to
reject truth itself is the ultimate sin.

Nobody gets “...truth crap…” I wonder why?

Capitalize or not, and
jumble the letters, but keep it pure at the site of
or reason.

Well, colour me traditional then, because truth, unlike these other names and ideas of gods you gave, is not a proper noun.  I won’t capitalize it.

Trivial pursuit is not my game. However, I did not
capitalize the word truth except as the first word of
a sentence in the last posting. Criticism of this
issue reminds me of other trivial pursuits of my life
and public displays.

If does not matter if one capitalizes or not. My
English grammar teachers advised to capitalize proper
names of persons, places, or things. Thus, the brand
name of my printer is capitalized, though it is just
a thing. All of my names, surname, middle, and first
name are capitalized. I likewise capitalize the
middle initial of my name. I render the generic word,
god, non-capitalized and the monotheistic name, God,
capitalized as a proper noun. I even capitalize,
Great Spirit, for the Native American deity-like
concept. I capitalize Zeus and Athena.

Languages like Hebrew, Arabic, Urdu, and others do
not use a capital letter tradition without distortion
of meaning. Our new generation of computer savvy
teens and young adults who text, twitter, and twist,
do not bother to capitalize in the tradition of
European languages. Even when I have to parse and
rephrase what I read from my younger children, I get
the sense. My Arab friend writes English in his own
phonetic construction without any use of a spell
checker. I still read it clearly.

try radenig tihs stnatmt for mneinig tehre is rael
odrer and you sohlud be albe to raed it

The preceding paragraph draws upon your innate
ability to disregard the unimportant trivia and get
to the truth. The better thinkers and readers have no
trouble. The more difficult it is for you the more
traditional you are and you are disturbed by the
content and manner of presentation. Trivia if you
will. The spirit of truth is more important than the
word of the law. What you believe that is true will
sustain you and what is not true can destroy you. The
spirit of truth lives in all that you do and in all
that you are. Don’t call it deity, if you choose, but
know truth for what it is. Capitalize or not, and
jumble the letters, but keep it pure at the site of
or reason.

Oh goody round two with Franks truth crap dominating the discussion which will
end again some 6 months later with no one getting it…............ AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 25 at 6:39 pm #

I would agree with this post, Frank.  But beacuse of a couple of things you stated in your post here, I would never capitalise truth. Doing so is like deifying it to the heights of the stones and spirits you mentioned from the past.

Live. Just live.

Some facts:

Most pregnant teens come from families that believe in god.

Most murderers believe in god.

Most inscestuous fathers believe in god.

Most thieves beleive in god.

Most fraud artists believe in god.

Most rapists believe in god.

These facts indidicate to me that god, or belief in god, religion, faith, and all that other theological crap has absolutely no influence on people vis-a-vis moral or ethical behaviour.

If the the religious theoligical mythology did make people moral, law abiding, ethical, and good only a small number of believers should be guilty of crimes.  Since the great majority of criminals and nasty people are believers, one must question the value of a religious belief system.

Furthermore religion and god have been used as an excuse to wage war, commit genocide, colonialize, enslave, subjugate, and denegrate others - generally those who believe in something “other”.

The world has never tryed living without a belief in the supernatural, or divine.  That being the case we can’t say what might happen if we tried to.  What we do know what has happened over and over again among and between believers and groups of believers - justification for the mistreatment of others, justification for a belief in moral superiority, justification for inequality.

Now my christian, jewish, and muslim friends do not assume that I am simply refering to the abrahamic religious tradition. No, I suggest that ultimately and essenstially ALL relgious traditions suffer in equal measure from theological exceptionalism.  Furthermore, I suggest that it is impossible for a believer of one theological tradition to accept and tolerate the moral and ethical equivalence of another.  The simple “act” of believing (assuming this belief is a product of “free-will) is a demonstration of theological exceptionalism on the part of the believer ie. the believer assumes his belief system is “superior” to an other, or his belieff system is the correct one.

Before you believers say : “atheism is a belief system”.  I must point out that “not believing” in god, is not the same as “believing there is no god”.  I belong in the “not believing” camp.  I don’t actually have an opinion on “god” just the abrahamic god, the one found in the bible, the torah, the koran - and will state that this god IS a fiction.

On the subject of changing religious beliefs, no
religion has ever controlled a majority of people
without some kind of coercion. Superstition and its
threat keep some in the camp or religions. Fear of a
conscious eternity of physical pain and suffering for
‘sins’ or an eternity of blissful knowledge of truth,
keep another part under control. Ritual and status
along with group psychology control the rest and
raise funds for expenses involved.

Without coercion, fundamentalist Christianity,
fundamentalist, Judaism, and fundamentalist Islam,
could not compete with pure reason. Status is
important to Jews as the Chosen People. Grace of God
is important to Christians who know they do not
deserve love or any benefit from God. The five
pillars of faith are important to Muslims, especially
those who do not understand truth and reason.
Buddhists seek enlightenment, and Hindus desire to be
reborn as higher beings. Ancient Mayans wanted it to
rain so that crops would grow, and ancient American
Natives wanted The Great Spirit to protect them from
all harm. Modern atheists seem to want to argue and
fuss with Christians and Muslims. Everyone has an
idea of reward or a benefit of some kind or fear of
pain or suffering of any kind.

The agnostic either does not give a damn or doesn’t
know any better.

Scientists want to prove the non-provable and
philosophers want to confuse everyone with truth.

Business people want to buy it for less than it is
worth and sell it for more than it is worth.

Politicians want to stay in office at high pay and privilege.

Women want to have fun, children, or sex without
responsibility.

Men want to have fun, sex without responsibility, and
someone to call him ‘daddy’.

Children want toys.

Young men and women want bigger and costlier toys.

Everyone wants something they can’t have.

Everlasting life is out.

Life without pain is out.

Life without water, food, and some kind of
reproduction is out.

What is the purpose of life? To live. Just to live.

Man has taken living to a higher level that conflicts
with lower needs.

Note the evolution of religion over archeological
time. From worship of animals, stones, and people, to
worship of invisible gods, angels, and spirits. Now a
search for the highest concept to worship over all
else.

Truth is at that top. Truth is not an individual
deity that must be appeased with prayer or sacrifice
of blood or money. But truth is required. Any god of
worship is not. The daydreamer appeals to truth. The
gambler appeals to truth. The liar could not lie if
nothing were true. The believer would need no belief
if he could be certain. If everything true were
known, there would be no need to seek anything. So a
life of experience seeking the unknown is the lot of
the thinking being.

If an atheist saw God, he wouldn’t believe it. If an
agnostic saw God, he would ignore it. If a theist saw
God, he would say, “I told you so!”

But everyone depends on truth for everything they are
or do. They depend on truth for their religion, and
their very existence. Those who disagree with me
depend on truth to make me wrong. Those who believe
anything depend on truth to make it right.

I depend on truth.

Warren, I told you, you keep it up, and you WILL get booted from this forum.

Now, as far as kissing Frank’s ass, I have had a LOT of words with Frank.  But like everyone, I get tired of warring sometimes.  And just that night, I had been an a diffent blog, and had just spoken with Muslim friends.  What I noticed, and I am telling you again now because you appear daft; is that like Frank, Muslims do not call names, and they do not throw around childish little jabs that they think will hurt their opponent, such as Reit woman, or xtheists…(so stupid_what are you?  12)?  Instead they just state their case…occasionally get a little hot..but never insult.  Frank is the first I have seen who gets insulting at times.  But he also has a very different brand of Islam than what I am used to dealing with or have ever seen.  I thought I punctuated my query to Frank quite well by wondering if it’s against Islam to do…well, the low-life things you do when discussing religion.

And if Webster is your god of words; he’s certainly not mine.  A racist is someone who continually blows his white or black or mexican (or whatever ethnicity you wish) horn as if he’s better than another race.  That’s you.  Your first post was on and on about the whole race issue that really has been laid to rest.  The US has a black president trying to pick up the dirty pieces of a white xian presidents evil deeds.  Good luck to him,  I doubt that he will be able to do it.

A misogynist, which is clearly what you are, is a man who truly believes he is superior to the life—(woman)—usually because of sexual inadequacies during puberty and an unsupporting if not abusive mother.  It doesn’t matter to me that you have daughters you love and wives that you copulated with.  I am sure they are just tools to reflect and reinforce yourself..the part that says you are able to give children to the world by impregnating a woman, and that the children carry your traits.  Its says nothing about you NOT being a misogynist.

Now you needn’t try and chase me on this.  I know my stuff…you could say. :D

Misogyny by Warren: “Women seem to excel in mud-slinging. Women are best at brawling in the mud. I don’t recall a mud fight between men.  Yes, women can do anything better than men including vomiting horse manure.”

Racism by Warren: “I am a white Christian and seek to defend, preserve, and protect the white +tian culture. Curiously, the NAACP, the many black caucuses, the Black Panthers, La Raza, none are viewed as racist. This is the sign of a subjective and distorted mind.”

By Annie Reitano, August 25 at 11:53 am # By Warren73163, August 25 at 8:50 am # “Warren, that’s a myopic viewpoint.  Who told you the United States is the grteatest country?  It’s economically bankrupt, it’s government is corrupt and the people no longer ejoy the freedoms they once did.  It is NOT the greatest country in the world.

And also, most of Europe is atheist or Non-religious already..and so is…guess who?  Israel.  g of Israel do not believe in god.  It’s way more than that in Europe.  I cannot remember off hand.  But you might find it interesting to read up on the MAJORITY of Americans, too.  Most do not adhere to any religion..or are . . . .

Dear Ms. Reitano, I am shocked. This is the very first intelligent opinion from you since I opened on this forum.  I agree with most of what you said if not everything you said in this post. 

I’ll respond tomorrow or the day after. WOW. Am I shocked. A very intelligent observation, by my view.

By Warren73163, August 25 at 8:54 am #

Well, I guess Americans are just using the land, so probably when the Middle East conquers it fair and square, there should be no complaining from you…or North Korea for that matter.

That was 67 percent of Israel.  Don’t know why it didn’t show up.

By Warren73163, August 25 at 8:50 am #

Warren, that’s a myopic viewpoint.  Who told you the United States is the grteatest country?  It’s economically bankrupt, it’s government is corrupt and the people no longer ejoy the freedoms they once did.  It is NOT the greatest country in the world.

And also, most of Europe is atheist or Non-religious already..and so is…guess who?  Israel.  g of Israel do not believe in god.  It’s way more than that in Europe.  I cannot remember off hand.  But you might find it interesting to read up on the MAJORITY of Americans, too.  Most do not adhere to any religion..or are non practicing xians.  Even if they’re agnostic, or just fairly indifferent to gods and religion.  These are the people who make up the majority of the entire world.  2 billion say they are xian and most without practicing.  The majority of the world is not devout.  It’s way up percentage wise just since they eighties. The world IS losing it’s reliion despite the fighting from Islam. 
I saw this on the O’reilly factor on YouTube so it’s probably bias. But the fact remains, when I look around at my friends who call themselves “xian”-and especially Protestant, most have never stepped foot in a church since they were children.
Even the people in or around Vatican city don’t adhere to much of the dogma except from Vatican II—which is extremely liberal.
You may be right that there will always be religions in the world. But I highly doubt xianity will be around in the next 100 years. At least not in any serious way.  Islam is younger, so we can assume that if everyone has not annhilated each other because of religion, Islam will be the most “devout” and even it will likely look something like xianity does today.  Non violent dogmatics who really just do their own thing and then call it “god”.

Good morning Xtheists, how are you? Well, I hope. I need you to educate me on Xtheists.

By archeon of thrace, August 21 at 9:08 pm #  “Warren you racists pig.  the white christians allowed the “others” in right after they murdered the indians, stole their land, violated the treaties.  They imported people from Africa as slaves (actually as property, like cattle, or dogs, or chickens). Enough said on the value of the American christian nation.  Good ridance.  We should all be glad it is gone.”

Much earlier, I heard similar tripe pronouncements from SNED. (Read again SNED from about August 5) I have been meaning to address this short sighted view and hate for our country and hate the vast majority of its people. 

The fact book states that 4 percent of our population has no religion. I take it to mean that Xtheists are 4 percent of America’s population. It takes a pure unmitigated mindless moron to profess hate for the very people that made this country great and still doing it. Just where would Xtheist moron be without the 96 other percent of people working and making things happen in the nation?

The small group of Xtheist can never, in all eternity, have their own nation.  The world will never be without religion. Governments may be Xtheist but not the majority of the population. Xtheist will forever have to live among religious people, of one religion or another. Only the dumbest of the dumb would insult the majority of a population and think he can get away with it forever. Only in America and Christian nations of European descent.  Xtheist dummy should try insulting the masses in non-European Christian nations.  Not all Christian nations are highly civilized and respectful of contrary and insulting opinions.  Once you successfully destroy the European Christian and his religion, you can expect some other less advanced group and its religion to fill the vacuum. This could very well happen. It is then that I wish Archeon a very long life and sound of mind. I want him to remember the damage he has wrought and feel its wrath personally. When the suffering comes, I wish him ever longer life. And all this should happen in his old age.

I do not believe that truth is hard to understand and
takes a hit to reason. Even if you view truth only as
matter of fact, you surely understand that a statement
that something exists that does not is not true. That is
the logic of the atheist. At the level of existence, if
something does not exist that is believed to exist that
is true without a statement in any language. At the the
level of possibility, you are possible or you could not
exist. At the level of truth universal, if you exist it
was always true that you would, it is true that you do,
and it will always be true that you did.

You might be surprised at my friend Khaled.  He loves vampire folklore (as do I) and is a rather “worldly” Muslim.  Yet when I tell him that Allah is not really real, he will defend him and attempt to tell me why he knows Allah is real and that Christianity is wrong.  I went to his MySpace page one day and was surprised that he had a vampire holding up a naked woman on his page.  Of course, being who I am, I really started pushing the envelope with him on that one.  And he didn’t speak to me for some time, but then came back to chat about a month or two later.  He’s still my friend.  He’s from Egypt and I think we spoke on him before.

I am not a bad person, Frank.  I am ill-tempered when I have a passion for certain things, that’s true.  But I really just want to understand why people feel the need to kill one antoher just because they disagree, or see things differently.  My naturally curious nature demands to understand the non-understandable.  But yes, even as Warren has been nothing but galling to me, I know that if he were bleeding on the side of the road that I would not only help him, but maybe even feel his pain more than he did.  My mother always told me that my compassion would be my down fall. 

I bet that seems pretty hard to believe for you, but it’s true.  Most of my anger comes from pain…that much I know for sure.  I absorb it like a sponge.

Annie,

The only violence bent Muslims I have heard of are
those reported in the media. I spent about four years
in Muslim countries and I have been married to a
Muslim woman for almost 31 years. We walked out of an
evening visit in a Muslim household in Kansas City in
1979 when the man began to justify the capture of the
US embassy in Teheran and the holding of hostages by
Muslim ‘students’. It is the nearest thing to a
violent Muslim I ever knew in person. Even he was not
violent, but did advocate violence against American
interests.

Muslims I know do state their case rather briefly,
but specifically. They do not proselytize as such,
but will defend their belief. Only if you ask for
specifics do you get the works.

Most are not as liberal as I am toward other
religions and none would be very friendly toward
avowed atheist. They will be civil and even friendly,
but most would not try to sway you. Neither do I. I
state my case and counter opposition with reason and
logic. To me religion is not a choice or a matter of
fact, but a deeper matter for serious thought.

I have been through the mill of religion. Never a
fundamentalist or ritual bent conservative. I am
quite understanding of atheist views, having held
atheist views myself. Like I said before, Islam did
not move me toward truth, truth moved me toward
Islam. I have stated my case. I have nothing more to
say to you directly, except Peace. Salaam aleika!
That is the singular when one person is addressed.
Salaam aleikom, when more than one are addressed.

I am sure that you are a better person than you come
across here. You are not bad, just misunderstood. I
like your new style. Let us not use this venue for
personal attacks.

Deal, Frank.  In fact, as I told you before, I do have muslim friends who are much more peaceful than xians.  I actually came to believe that it was prerhaps against Islam for them to be too arumentative.  I don’t know, though.

They simply state their claims and move on to another topic as a rule.  However, I have ticked a few off…but never to the point of them disowning our frienship.

Annie,

I want to make a deal. I will not include you among the
violent atheists, if you will not include me with the
violent people who call themselves Muslim. I AM NOT
VIOLENT NOR DO I ADVOCATE OR SUPPORT VIOLENCE FOR ANY
CAUSE EXCEPT DEFENSE AGAINST VIOLENT AGGRESSORS. I have
never met a violent Muslim. Nor, for that matter a
violent atheist.

I just love that!  Thank you Warren.  It was a little easier to get you to show your true colours than a lot of people on here.  But I have been on this site for some years and xians always show, in the end, that they are no differnt than anyone.

First was glenno, then Son of glenno, then was evangelist, then Frank a few times, though he always goes back to the idea of “maintaining” control.  But it usually took a little time with them.  There have been a few others aI don’t remember either…I think nelson was one of them. Anyway…

Because you are a racist and therefore obviously full of hate..and because I noticed it right off, I made a bet that you would fold and show your true colours in under a month.  I won $5.00.  Not a lot..but thank you!

You’re not better because you’re a xian.  HAHA You’re just like every other “wanna be good guy loved by Jesus” who comes to this site with nothing to say except lunk head ideas like “the stars and stripes rule!  Jesus is god!  Yayyy!  He loves me best and I can’t wait to see you fry in hell!”

You, Warren are a complete idiot with mommy issues.  But thank you again for showing us the true Xian
under the facade.  You guys are like Ted Bundy.  The mask only lasts awhile before it slips.

And that’s the difference.  You knew exactly how I was from the beginning.  No mask…no need to pretend. And there you were trying to play super-piety in the censorship arena…;)

That was the best laugh I have had in a while. :D

By Warren73163, August 24 at 11:00 am #

Warren, from the very fist day you started posting, I noticed a common theme with you.  Racsim and misogyny. You continually use insults to bash atheists.  I don’t mind the occasional jab here and there as things get heated.  But you have sewn your picture all too clearly into the tapestry of hatred…mainly of blacks and women,and most definitely of athests. You have never ONCE spoken on the Atheist Manifesto-the subject of this thread.  That makes you a troll.  A troll, is a person who just comes to make trouble and doesn’t really have anything to say with the exception of insults.

And yes, I have had people thrown from here before; I will have you tossed off as well if you can’t shut the fuck up about blacks and women in derrogatory fashion, and just discuss things.

Start telling us what it REALLY is about atheism that irks you.  And leave out the stereo-types about pregnant teens. A lot of them get that way because of perverted fathers and uncles, etc., i.e. men. (1 in 4) So you can just start banging a different drum regardin that as well.

Its probably best if you stopped with the judgement altogether…because you don’t know what you’re talking about anyway.

Just what is it you want to say about the manifesto and/or atheism?  Leave everyone else out of your diatribe and just communicate.

And Warren, if you don’t like me because I am a woman wth a keyboard and a voice…I couldn’t tell you how much I don’t care.  So, quit with the childish jabs…they’re stupid and make you seem like a dim-wit with no other recourse.

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 24 at 10:36 am #

Frank, Islam is violent. There was even news on Yusef Islam and his coersing with the Taliban.  But even if they are just “the radicals” causing all this death and destruction, why would you even want to be a cog in that big wheel of barbaric horror?  As long as you remanin Muslim, you ARE violent..because you are part of the bigger picture.

I don’t understand how you could, in all good conscience, concider yourself to be a peaceful man.  I would say this to any Muslim; in fact, I have said it to some.

You are aiding and abetting.  How do you see it any differently?

All frogs are green
Kermit is a frog
Kermit is green

(Not all frogs are green. Some frogs are red. Some
frogs are yellow, some frogs are brown, some frogs
are green. Most frogs are green.)

All Muslims are violent
Frank is Muslim
Frank is violent

(Not all Muslims are violent. Some Muslims are
violent. Some Muslims are peaceful. Most Muslims
defend themselves with violence.)

All atheists are truthful
Annie is an atheist
Annie is truthful

(Some atheists are truthful. Some atheists are not.
Most atheists are truthful.)

All atheists are peaceful
Annie is an atheist
Annie is peaceful

(Some atheists are not peaceful. Some atheists are.
Most are peaceful.)

Annie,

I commend you on the writing style and good English
of this posting. It is miles from your usual trashing
of the language.

Like others, you insist on the stereotype produced by
the renegades of the religion of Islam. They are wide
ranging and vicious. They are not Muslim. They are of
the likes of European Christians who escaped from the
Christian message of love and conciliation taught by
their Prophet, Jesus. The violators of Islam no more
represent Islam than Hitler and Mussolini represented
Christian values. They are also of the same mind set
that produces in Jewish acts in the state of Israel
to mistreat and to deny Palestinians of all religions
their human rights by demolishing homes and
destruction of their hopes for peaceful life. They
are of the same mind that George W. Bush and his
cohorts who violated all the ideals upon which
America was founded. They are of the same stuff as
the American president who drove the Indians from
Georgia and other southern states and those who
earlier massacred the plains Indians to make way for
migration of whites to the interior of the land. They
are of the same standard that allowed Christians to
enslave Africans in the new nation and to perpetrate
the practice with various excuses for a hundred
years, then deny them equality after emmancipation.
All human violations of human rights are wrong and
must be reversed. It is quite true that much of the
spread of Islam was in ventures of conquest just as
most of the spread of Christianity and now the return
of Jews to the Middle East, were by armed conflict.
Converts were not highly idealistic Muslims, having
endured the onslaught.

Does the paragraph above say that all who claim to be
Muslim are virtuous? That all who claim to be
Christian are virtuous? That all who claim to be
Jewish are peace loving? Human rights violations are
just that by Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, or
atheists. I am in agreement with you in so far as you
are against human rights violations by anyone under
any banner.

The only justification for violence is in self
defense. That is why American military affairs are
under a Department of Defense, not a War Department.
But defense of Nazism, Communism, and Zionist
violations of human rights, is not only not justified
defense, but violations of human rights of self
defense.

I do not believe in an imaginary being of the likes
of Zeus, Jehovah, or the God-Man, Jesus. If a man,
Jesus, walked the earth of 2000 years ago, so be it.
If a man, Mohammad, propagated a cleansing of
Abrahamic faith, so be it. If the pure belief of
Islam in one God has deteriorated into a mob of
murderers, let it be cleaned up, not thrown away.
I hope identifying God as Truth, is not so
threatening as to change peaceful atheists to
murdering maniacs in defense of denial of God in any
concept.

I am peaceful. The Islam I know from the Qu’ran is
peaceful in the idealistic practice found there. Yet
Islam is defensive to the point of violence if
attacked. Islam is under attack both from without and
from within. The it is a disaster for Muslims and
non-Muslims.

Your peaceful stance is appreciated. Not all atheists
are peaceful or even supporters of human rights.
Today’s atheist is a far cry from the atheistic
bandits of the past. I consider anyone who abandons
truth and all consequences to be atheist, but any who
claim to be atheist who affirm truth and consider
consequences of peaceful co-existence desirable, is
my ally. Islam did not lead me to truth, truth led me
to Islam. Surely atheists need not give up truth in
order to be atheist. Just don’t call her God if that suites you better.

Frank, if Islam were as cushy as you seem to make it out to be, I doubt we would be having such a long conversation with you.  You came here for a reason.  What is it?  We know that the bombings took place in London on 7/07, and we are sure about the attacks on the WTC on 9/11.  These were religio-fascist Muslims bent on taking over the west.  And they ARE growing in number.

One thing that I can say about the states is that Islam will have it’s hands full, and the states will have theirs all the dirtier; however, as much blood that will run in the streets when those days come, Islam will NEVER take over the western world without everyone annhilating one another over who has the imaginary god-person.

It’s not cushy, it’s not non-violent, it’s not a peaceful religion…it’s a MESS.  And you partake in it and then have the gall to come here, post as if you’re intelligence is higher than that of others whose questions you choose to ignore, and ask to censor people.  Meanwhile, you believe in an imaginary being.  huh.

And you believe Islam is peaceful. This is the crap you’re selling?  Are you at home?  Hello?  Islam has become nothing more than a bunch of little Muslim Ann Coulters running around without anything to stop them.  And let’s face it, Ann Coulter, if she were allowed to roam free and have her way,

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren’t punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That’s war. And this is war.”  -Ann Coulter

Can’t you see what a nightmare this all is?  The radicals on all sides have the power.  It is BEST to remain atheist and not take a side then to be like these babarians.

Report this

Warren, the state being secular, I still insist that the social welfare provided by the state is essentially secular and a-relgious even atheistic in substance.  Furthermore, the state being democratic, I must assume these programs are supported by the majority.  If they were not would not elections have put people in power who would eleminate the state social welfare system?  That the social welfare system exists, proves to me that it is what the people want, and that they willingly support.

Social welfare includes:
Unemployment insurrance
Workers compensation
Welfare
Medicare
Medicaid
social housing
the police
the fire department
Building inspections
Highways and roads
Food inspections
Parks (national, state, and municipal)
Schools(public, colleges, and universities)
Hospitals (except the private ones)
Homeland security
The Military
this list is not a complete listing.

Warren you demonstate a complete lack of understanding of the history of WWII.  Those who fought in that war were lied to, misinformed, cheated, and forced to fight in a war that enriched the privilegded American class.

It is often claimed that WWII was fought to bring liberty and freedom.  So let me ask this, of the major players in this so called “good war” which one did not have colonies where people of colour were dominated by white colonials? (hint there are only two) Which nation paid the hightest blood price?

Britain had and empire and still forced 300 million Indians into quasi slavery.
Holland had colonies in Southeast Asia.
France had colonies in South America, Southeast Asia, Africa.
Belgium had the Congo.
The USA was still telling the Philipines how to govern themselves, as well has having vitual colonies in Cuba and Central America.

The USA also had segregation, and overt racism in government, the police, and the military.

The only country that did not have an empire, colonies, or client states was: Canada.  In Canada however there was at that time overt discrimination towards Natives, Jews, Blacks, and Eastern Europeans.  It also had a continuing issue with how the English treated the French.

  The USSR also didn’t have colonies, but it did have client states in Finland and the Caucasus.

Japan also had colonies.

To claim that the war was fought to defend and protect freedom, to destroy tyranny, to promote democracy, is a false claim.  It is a claim that cannot be supported by facts and nor by the truth.

The second world war was not a good war, it was not an honourable war, it was not a war in which this or that side was right.

Americans should concider that while their sons were dying in this war Dupont, Ford, GM, Standard Oil, and others were selling to both sides, and making money hand over fist off the blood of young American white christian boys.(that is for Warren’s benefit).

Warren and those like him (white christians) should remember that while Americans were fighting to bring and end to tyranny in Europe, blacks had to ride at the back of the bus, that in many states it was illegal for whites and blacks to marry, the black men were being lynched (presumably by white christians).  That Japanese Americans were being interned and striped of their property (Canada also did this).

I can only assume that the vets of that war represented a cross section of the American people.  A people who were anti-semitic, who believed in the superiority of whites, that men should dominate women, that Indians where inferior, that asians were inferior.  Which makes me wonder what were they fighting for?

It might come as a shock to Warren that the overwhelming majority of Canadians, Brits, Germans, French (an incomplete list) prefer where they live to the USA.  He might be suprised that most of those people are not trying to get into the USA.

Annie,

For your information there are many versions of a
ritualistic conversion to Islam. All have one thing
in common. It is the words in Arabic (Romanized): Laa
il?ha illa All?h… They are followed by a disclaimer
that Mohammad is the Prophet of Allah. The essential
is Laa il?ha illa All?h, which translates into
English as “No god but The God.” It is Arabic for One
God only. The disclaimer is to avoid the mistake by
Christians that elevates The Prophet, Jesus, to the
status of God. Jesus was a prophet as Moses, Mohammad
and others. Muslims do not consider Mohammad a person
of Godhead as Christians did with Jesus.

It is true that Shiite and other Muslim sects require
two witness to the shahada of a convert. But most
Muslims, including the immam I asked in Saudi Arabia,
say that God does not require any human witness. But,
if you wish to gain access to a mosque, Mecca,
Medina, or other holy sites open only to Muslims, you
have to declare with two witnesses the shahada to
prove that you are Muslim. All Muslims I know accept
that God is my witness and no other is required. To
be married in the Islamic way, you say the shahada.

Further, it is not true that one must have become
Muslim after Mohammad. Of course the issue is moot
now, but Muslims existed before the Prophet Mohammad.
So do not insist that I follow another human being’s
prescription. All Muslims accept the statement, “God
is my witness.” Even when one proves himself by
saying the shahada before witnesses, he states in
Arabic, that “...God is my Witness.” That is to avoid
the claim that the approach to God is through human
witnesses. Not even the Prophet could intercede
between a Muslim and Allah. There is no priesthood or
special privileged Muslims who speak to God for
anyone. Immams are preachers, but not priests.
Scholars speak about Islam, not for God. Many Muslims
in the millenniums since Mohammad have distorted his
teachings due to misunderstanding and
misinterpretations. Thus, the schisms and various
schools of Islam. That is where dietary and clothing
issues came from.

I advise you not to take a poll of Muslims to find
out what God requires. Opinions are as varied as in
any other group. But, none will dispute that there is
only one God, Allah. They will vary all over the road
as to how a non-Muslim is to become a Muslim. Some
will assure you that being born to Muslim parents
make one Muslim, and indeed, world statistics of
Muslims include children born to Muslim parents. Only
God can deny your claim and He won’t tell anyone
else.

There must be a more substantial issue to quibble
about.

Frank, your Latin translation is very good indivually.  But collectively it means “good will to all men”.  Isn’t Latin Christmasy?  That’s because it rings down like a bell from the RCC. Well, you still get an A.

Just don’t get personal, Frank.  I don’t care if you call me unkind or stupid..whatever. I am sure that I am not those things, but can, at times, be those things.  But personal life should not and does not have anything to do with this discussion.

Now, you say that I demand you adhere (paraphrased) to traditional Muslim laws and/or rules.  I don’t!  But it appears to me AND my Muslim friends, one of whom I have known a long time, that you are not truly Muslim in any sense.  It appearts to us that you are selling your own song and dance.  I understand that there are different sects of Islam, but I am curious to know why you do not adhere to the Islam of Saudi Arabia where you once lived.

Good morning, Xtheists, and how are you? Please don’t lose so much sleep over my words. Forget about me at bedtime and get a good night’s sleep,

It has come to be that I think of Xtheists many times during the day. Again, first thing this morning as I read the daily paper.

Today, our papers give us a story of hardship during WWII (For Xtheists, that’s an acronym for World War II) If you pay attention, to the movies and replays of documentaries, the majority of American combatants were white dudes of traditional ancestry.

In this story, the woman becomes the wife to a young Navy pilot.  During the Pacific war, the husband was shot down. After bailing out, he landed on the parade ground of a Japanese training camp and taken prisoner of war.  The only news to his wife was that he was missing in action.  During captivity, he lost 30 pounds (that’s a lot of weight considering that our population was mostly slim and trim at the time.) After his release, he died at age 41 from the result of his internment.

My question to this hero and the hundreds of thousands of heroes like him,  in heaven, will be, knowing what you know now, would you sacrifice so much for the land of America-hating parasites and ingrates that we have become? Don’t you feel stupid for patriotically sacrificing so much for your country? Would you do it all over again? Do you have any idea what Xtheists think of America and their level of contempt for its white Christians?

Annie,

Peace to me means that I do not threaten you in any
way if I do not agree with you. I put my trust in
truth that you will abide with truth in all that you
do. You can do nothing impossible, yet I must admit
that even I can do something foolish. So can you and
probably do. It is the admission of imperfection that
allows us to live with our differences without harm
to each other. Words may never harm me physically by
drawing blood or delivering a blow to the head, but a
blow to the sensitivities is just as disabling in the
quest for peace.

Despite my denial that I am fundimentally convinced
of the accuracy of the Qu’ran, Bible, or any other
man produced documentation of belief, you and others
here demand that I conform with your stereotype of
Muslims. And the all I believe must be mediated and
modified by an unwavering belief in the certainty of
every word of the Qu’ran or the sayings of the
Prophet. Further, you demand that I conform to all
assumptions about Islam held by non-Muslims. That is
an insult to me and to free people everywhere. It is
also an insult to yourself, because that means that
you must conform to all the stereotypes of atheists
held by everyone else.

Perhaps it would not be possible to have this forum
if we all agree to conform to the stereotypes
assigned to us. Would that be a lose? The losers
would certainly include me and you.

So we cannot have peace and conform to the
stereotypes of each other. The next best thing is to
disengage in a stalemate of purpose. We can live and
let live in an outward semblance of peace and
tranquility, but no progress could be made toward the
pole that represents truth and honesty.

May truth look after you in all your pursuits. Let
truth guide you to what is right, comfortable, and
safe. Let truth protect you from the sting of rebuke
and criticism. Let truth be your anchor in life when
you wish to be stable. But, let truth be your wings
when you fly, your fins when you swim, and you legs
when you run. Let truth create a swerve to avoid the
pit and the obstacle. Let your knowledge of truth
protect you and your play on truth be your
entertainment. Let truth be your purpose in all that
you do and in all that you are. Keep it clean and
truth will keep you sweet and kind and free of
blemish and odor.

Truth will not demand that I be error free or that
you will be. But truth will reward us when we are, or
punish us when we misbehave.

Pacem in terris.

You cannot reasonably assume anything factual. All
facts must defend themselves. If true, they may still
not be very attractive.

The Qu’ran is the record of what The Prophet said
over his life of preaching. It was compiled about 30
years after his death. The twists and turns are
attributed to misrepresentation of the facts. So
facts rule only when true and even when true may not
be just what you want. All human attempts to render
the ‘word of God’ have failed in some respect. The
failure is usually in the hidden meaning of the
prose. Anecdotal content may or may not be accurate.
Yet, even if not accurate, the essence of Islam may
come through. I find the essence of Islam in both the
Bible and in the Bhagavad Gita. If you dwell on the
contradictions and the errors, you can’t find it. I
find the essence of Islam in the common assumption of
monotheism wherever it is stated. With a healthy respect for the meaning of monotheism, you could find it in the practices of Wahabism, the most severe form of Islam as expressed by the dominant influence of Muslim preachers in Saudi Arabia. You could not find democratic freedom to object or to differ, but you could find that they are strict monotheists.

As I have clearly said in other posts, there is no
need for a name for God. Honesty demands that I
accept a higher power over the mundane acts of living
organisms. Eating, hydrating, defecating, and sex
acts do not yield to higher power in the minds of
most people. Yet it is the function of a higher power
that puts such acts into motion. The channel in which
they are restrained is physical and personal. It is
in cooperation with truth in all its manifestations
that allows all human acts. On one side are the
restraints of the impossible. On the other side are
the limitations of resources and capacity. In all
intellectual pursuits limitations abound. It is
within the bounds of limitations that we function as
successful animals with a brain that can do more than
direct eating, hydration, defecation, and sex.

You may find the essence of Islam (Belief in one God) in your Christian faith. You may find it in the Jewish traditions. You may find it in the stories in the Bhagavad Gita. You may find it in the experiences of your childhood. In all respects and in all places or aspects of life, it is faith that drives belief in any representation of One God. Despite assumptions of avowed atheists, it is faith that drives their denial of God. Faith in their reasons, which derive from faith in truth of their convictions. It is not essential that everything they believe is true, but that every thing they believe is in truth. If in truth God does not exist, where does the belief that God does not exist reside? If God does not exist, the truth of that resides in truth itself, which contradicts the statement just as the two statements below contradict each other. Both cannot be true.

1. Statement number 2 is true.
2. Statement number 1 is false.

Peace on earth.

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 22 at 10:20 pm #

Your Latin is intact if you know what the words mean individually as well as collectively.

Warren, you’re a lost cause and there’s nothing more to even say to you. But be sure that I will NOT let a xian take over an atheist blog.  No way.

Warren, Hitler was not an atheist, but quite
religious and superstitious.  Was he better than
Jesus? I can’t say, besides I don’t know if a real
person (Hitler) can be better or worse than a
fictional one (Jesus).

So you really think morality and ethics have declined
over the years?  I guess wife beating, incest,
lynching, segregation, didn’t happen in 1940 or 1950.

What both Warren and Frank fail to address, is that
atheists like myself, and Annie, attack your religion
from the internal contraditions your faiths have. 
These contradictions are revealed in the texts of
your faith.  As christians, jews, and muslims use the
texts to justify and prove the validity of their
faith, it is valid for use to attack the believers on
the substance of the texts.  If one claims to be a
christian, and claims that the OT and NT are the
devine revelation of god’s truth to man, then I can
only assume you believe the text.  As such, I can
then assume you condone rape, murder, infanticide,
geneocide, ethnocide, slavery, wife beating, child
beating, aggressive war on your neighbours, the
stoning of adulterers - in short I must assume you
condone and approve of the actions of god’s chosen as
described in the text you claim is holy.

The same holds true for islam.

If you say you are a christian, I can reasonably
assume you believe the bible is the word of god.

If you say you are a muslim, I can reasonably assume
you believe the koran is the word of god.

I either case, I can judge the veracity and validity
of your belief system by examining the texts
associated with your faith.
.........................................

Regarding prison.  If religious belief was in fact a
buffer against criminality then, then the prison population should be predominantly a-religious, or
even atheist.  It is not.  It is predominantly
composed of people of faith.  Most murderers proclaim
a belief in god.

Let me provided an anecdotal story. I went to
highschool in a very religious community.  Most of
the people in this town of 6500 were congregants in
fundamentalist christian churches.  Upwards of 90%
where church going, devout, christians.  The
highschool in this town, was a regional school and
many kids from areas less “christian” attended this
school.  Of my graduating class only the non-
christians had not had runins with the law.  Mostly
the christians had problems with pot and booze and
driving.  But stealing, shop lifting, break and enter
was rampant amongst the christians.  Don’t even get
me started on sex….I have never elsewhere seen so
many 16 year olds pushing baby carriages.  I never
saw any evidence then that religion made people moral
or ethical.  The wages of sin never seemed to me to
prevent people from acting evil.

Annie,

Just a lesson on construction of vile trash without
using so much as a skip letter frame for a vulgarity.
I said I can use the dirty kind but I won’t do that
to you or anyone else. I will use sarcasm that seems
to get to the core of your sensitivity training.

I probably have you all wrong because I judge you by
the quality of your prose. You may very well be kind
to animals and cripples. You do trash English. I hope
you treat your native language better. Did you say
four languages? Are you Swiss? My French and German
are crippled. I never became fluent in either. I have
seldom seen a glimpse of your better side. You always
show the nasty one in these posts.

To me the greatest insult to a language is to misuse
its grammar, syntax, and structure. Logic can take
care of itself. I hope you do better in your
workplace.

Again, I say that you are about 99.9% wrong about me
and my intents and relationships. I am totally
committed to equality in all human rights. The
hardest thing is to treat those who mistreat me
fairly. But I must. Truth and sarcasm are my only
weapons. The comment by a subordinate in the Army as
I was retiring that got to the spot was, “Major
Goodman was tough, but fair, and he was the toughest
on himself, when he was wrong.” That by a black
sergeant who worked with me twice. Once before he got
his college degree on the bootstrap program, and
again after he completed his college. He got a
booster letter from me in his application.

Now lets us get back to the intent of this forum. Lay
off the personal insults and you will get none from
me.

Peace! Salaam! Shalom! Pacem in terrus. (Check out
the Latin spelling)

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 22 at 4:50 pm #

Frank,

You were doing quite well until I got to the bottom of the post and read your weak insults to me.  You do NOT know me.  Nor will I give you the satisfaction of addressing my personal life to you.  Suffice it to say…good thing you’re not a psychologist.

So, you think you can out-spell me?  Why because I do this while I work and am not the greatest typist when in a hurry?  Or do you honestly believe that?  Boy!  Would I love to get with you on that one.  I am an excellent speller, and have won awards.  My grammar is excellent as well..when I take the time with it.  I don’t have the time ticking away that you seem to have.  I am young..and I have a life.

Languages are my thing.  I speak and write four different ones.  So don’t tempt me to come to your home and beat your ass. :D

What your post DID reveal…if you were telling the “truth” is that you are a vile man to your own wife.  So, if I were yo-(well I would probably die very soon).  But other than that..I wouldn’t go picking on someone’s elses idea of Islam when your’s is not far off.  As for your wife, I am sure you have her beaten and eating off the floor.  We all know what your son did to you.

You could NEVER say the same of my children.  NEVER.  hahaha

You have a nice day, too, Francis.

Earlier, I advanced the notion that America’s morality, and corresponding greatness,  has been declining since the mid-60s. As a skeptic of the truth and everything I say, Rwoman needed proof. But, if a person was born later than mid-40s, said person has no cognizance of social conditions of the 60s and their evolution to today’s corruption.  Since government school are not good at teaching history, most people who attend said schools remain ignorant of changing times. They can only know by their personal experiences as the age. Many people think the universe came into being with their birth.

If Frank chose to do so, he could confirm my view of decline in social mores. . But, he chooses to remain silent. As time goes by, I will be looking for older and wiser men to validate my point.
For now, I give you one of my black heroes, Walter Williams, a conservative Christian, erudite and wise.  Williams says “

“. . . In thinking about questions of morality, my initial premise is that I am my private property and you are your private property. . . A no answer would put them on the spot as well because that would mean they would have to come out against taking the earnings of one American to give to another in the forms of farm and business handouts, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps and thousands of similar programs that account for more than two-thirds of the federal budget. There is neither moral justification nor constitutional authority for what amounts to legalized theft. . . .”

Williams is advancing the notion that much of our taxes are immoral. In short, the involuntary transfer of wealth is immoral.

http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2009/04/01/our_problem_is_immorality?page=full&comments=true

More:    . . .

(1)  A 350% increase in crime since 1960 (2) A revolving door criminal justice system (3) A broken judicial system under the weight of lawyer politics and business opportunity and (4) An explosion of immorality in America. Sorrell says all these issues are related and are wrapped together. 
(2)  http://www.atps.com/joinunitedcitizens.htm

(Note the year: 1960)

More:

“The belief that America is degenerating on a moral level is shared by both Republicans and Democrats.  According to a new Gallup poll, 82 percent of Republicans and 78 percent of Democrats say that moral values in the U.S.A. are only fair or downright poor.  40 years ago, only 33 percent of Americans felt that way.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121064,00.html

(Note: 40 years ago places this in the ‘60s)

“Often, as I speak on these issues across the country, someone in the audience hurls this tired old corker: ‘The religious Right is trying to force its values down our throats.’  I have a standard response which I enjoy offering.  I inform my listeners that the secular Left has introduced sexual indoctrination and condom distribution to eleven-year-old public school students.  It has made the enjoyment of tobacco the moral equivalent of child molestation.  It has dramatically increased illegitimacy in America.  It has created an entertainment ethos that brings smut and vulgarity into our living rooms.  Take an honest look at the values that the secular Left has already succeeded in forcing down the throats of religious Americans.
http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/moraldecline.php

What I will be looking for is the statistics for large increases in divorce, nudity, vulgarity, shack-ups,  abortion, promiscuous sex especially among the young, illegitimacy, lying, cheating, and cheating,  all forms of immorality and their evolution since the mid-60s. Many more immoralities are not mentionable since they are politically incorrect, therefore, I cannot exercise fully my 1st Amendment rights on an Xtheist site without fear of being banned before I finish delivering my total message.

Goodnight, happy dreams, God bless America and all Xtheists.

By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 22 at 2:10 pm # “I have failed again to raise this discussion to an intellectual level. It remains a gutter grouch grinch site.”

Dear Frank, you have failed because you did not get down to their gutter level.  Xtehists tend to be gutter people. It is their preferred level for discussion.  They specialize in foul language, insults,  and vulgarities. You have given us very profound discussions in the past. It went over the Xtheist’s head. Or maybe through it.  The Xtheists on this site are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Annie,

This is not a numbers game. It does not matter how many Christian convert to Islam or how many Muslims convert to
Christianity. It does not even matter how many atheists could dance on the pages of Sam Harris’ books.

It does not matter how many ignorant Muslims, who do not know any better than Christians or atheists, if God exist or
is just a figment of a camel driver’s mind. Like all prophets, Mohammad went on to expound with his own details and
prescriptions. Much of Mohammad’s response to his followers is quite humorous. Some have even come to believe that
Mohammad’s old wife, Kadijah, was the brains behind the message. She is admitted to be the one to reassure The
Prophet (PBH) that he had received a credible message. She is one of his first ‘converts.’ It was a stroke of genius
that Mohammad came up with the statement that Allah is Al Haq (The Truth). So along with the adjectival qualities
taken as ‘names’ there are 99 names for God. That is, I suppose better than three Gods, three Gods in one God Head. Or
three holy persons in one monotheistic God. I am an avowed Muslim who has accepted the one God, Allah. Yet, as a
thinker, of which there have been many in Islam, I must test my belief and rely upon supports to keep my belief from
bringing down my reason. My support is truth in all reason. So by accepting one of the 99 names as a pillar of my
faith, I cling to the only monotheism that makes any sense. By doing so, I do not give up my God given right to
think, or my political right to freedom of speech. Muslims who fear to think, are as bad as atheists who fear to
believe in truth.

I want to thank you again for not filling your page with filthy name calling and graphic descriptions of perverted
sex acts. I probably just invited you to outdo yourself again as you do from time to time. Actually, I am not so
ignorant as you assume. Though I do not allow education level to rise to proof, but I do have a Master’s degree of
sorts. It is not an academic degree with substantial research, but how many MA or MS degrees rise to that level? Mine
is in Health Care Management, so lacks the substance to brag about. I wrote a thesis, but not a dissertation. I also
took several classroom courses to enhance the job training I received. I defended my thesis with logic and a reasoned
discussion on the merits of micro cost analysis of workload reporting in the workplace. I dare say that most college
graduates today could not manage that task without severe mental juggling. So my MA degree following my AB degree in
Liberal Arts and Sciences, do not qualify me to the level of mental alertness to satisfy you as to my astute
achievements. I can battle you in semantics, syntax, grammar, (not spelling), and logic. I could, if I stooped low
enough to battle you in profanities. I spent four years as an enlisted man in the US Army, where profanities take on
a whole new meaning. My father was a rodeo performer and my mother got all the filth that crowd could throw at a
former school teacher. So, I do excel in the profanity of my time and place. But, I don’t need it any more except to
jar my wife back to normalcy in our disagreements about mundane household chores and marital functions of all kinds.
But, then you would not know about those, as I assume that you are not married. If ever married, no man would endure
you for long. Maybe a one night stand, or an hour if that is too long. Unless you are well healed with filthy money
(You could not handle anything clean), your children, if you should have been lucky or unlucky enough to conceive in
the short exposure to reproductive organs of the opposite sex, have abandoned you.

Have a nice day.