PROVE IT! Prove to me that there is no God! You can’t.
Have you ever heard of the “arguement of motion”?
It proceeds form a simple fact: everything in the world that we experience and know “undergoes change”, proceeding from the potential to the actual. Everything moves or changes. Yet, nothing moves or changes itself. Everything that moves must be moved by something already in motion. But this chain of motion can not regress infinitly. An infinite chain of movers would not suffice to explain the motion. It must have a beginnig that is unmoved. The unmoved prime mover is what we call God.
“The degrees of perfection”. St Thomas observes that we all judge certain things to have a greater or lessor degree of perfection than others. We say something is more or less true, more or less good and so on. Such relative measurements imply an absolute standard of measurement. A tape measure must mark the distance between two end points. Its degrees-whether inches, feet, yards or miles- must be marked relative to some constant and absolute standard. This is true of all qualities. But there must be some perfect standard against which all qualities are measured. That fullness of all perfection we call God. That’s if you want to argue from a scientific point of view which I really don’t care much about. My beliefs are based upon faith. But I have done some reading too Budd! I can go on and on. Let me guess, your one of those who believes your a monkey.lol. Who’s delusional. Why are there still monkeys around than? Some changed and some didn’t? lol. You believe in the Big Bang? Why don’t you throw a rock against a wall and watch it break open. You think its going to break up into fine spherical marbles. Oh it must be the forces in space that made them that way! Not good enough! Why are there all kinds of meteors out there that could posibly be older than the earth and are all unporportioned. Scientists are contantly argueing these facts and not agreeing with one another. God’s will and laws are always the same. they don’t change. Why don’t you give me some proof that God doesn’t exist?

In my opinion, I don’t think that they are expoiting anything. I love all people and I see all people as God’s creation. I think they do too. They are just simply stating that “sin” is not acceptable. We tolerate it, but it should not be accepted. We should be teaching people, especially the young, that living a life of sin or remaining in that state of sin is not only disregarding God’s will, but you are denying the gift of salvation that he gives you freely and abundantly. That is what the churches are trying to get across. They know perfectly well that we will always sin from time to time, even the Pope goes to confession at least once a week, but we should know the wrongs that we do and ask for forgiveness and the strength of God to resist these temtations. It’s about know the difference between right and wrong. Ultimately, God holds the final judgement of that, not you or I. Just read the first chapter of Romans if you want to know where the churches base there beliefs on this issue from. After all, they are men of God, what do you expect them to say? If you say one thing is right, than everything is, including incest, bestiality, 1st degree murder (under the right cercumstances) and so on. You would be starting a downward spiral of sin. We should be striving for righteousness. By the way, I know that many of you are just wanting to throw the whole sex assault issues in the church at me and I only have this to say. The media likes to take a couple of issues and turn them into mega storms. Shur, I know that there have been wrongs committed within the church and there always has been. Even Christ said once; “Have I not chosen you 12 and yet one of you is the devil?”
There has been a very miniscule fraction of priests and Popes that have abused there power or the innocence of women and children among thousands throughout the ages. Are you going to stop going to school because you heard that a teacher sexually abused a child? or a doctor with his patient? And this happens All the time. ALL THE TIME with other professions.

I did not read the article but it was nice to see the gay convention in the picture above.Dresses jewelry and funny hats.Must have been a party.Oh my I just read the article those guys are straight?

Even the worst of “sins” are only weaknesses.  Religion exploits “weaknesses” by blowing them up to the size of sins.

Dear Shade51,

If I repent - really and truly in my heart of hearts - and keep the bacteria in my stomach from moving on that night of nights, do you think I could get that coal out of my stocking ? My carbon footprint is sufficiently large as it is....

Henri

“Do I believe a flood covered the earth?  Well, it says it happened in the Bible, and the earth definitely shows signs of a mass flood even now.  So yeah, I guess I do.  Do I believe Jonah could have built a boat to survive the flood with all the animals?  Well, it took him and his sons about 60 years or something, and they were bigger, had more oxygen, and they had the time.  They took all baby animals most likely, and God helped with that.”

Uh… Kevin?  In my Bibles Noah and his sons built the ark.  Jonah was swallowed by a giant fish.

And wasn’t it you ranting on another site about Sodom spilling his seed?  Last time I checked Sodom was a city.  Onan spilled his seed. 

I hope you can understand my reluctance to grant any moral authority, based on your knowledge of the Bible.

In my interpretation of Christ’s teachings, I find the intolerance of any lifestyle that does no harm to any person or their neihbors to be a direct assailing of Christ’s teachings. Christ and paul insisted that the most important laws of all are to love thy neihbor and love thy God. If you read the passages used to condemn Homosexuals in their original context, they are very ambiguous and they don’t directly condemn homosexual oriented people. They condemn particular acts and many scholars believe that they refer to pagan rituals of the time. These interpretations may be wrong. But so too may be the church’s interpretations. If you claim that your interpretation of scripture is infallible, especially on an ambiguous passage, to me that is claiming that you are God which is a serious sin. The churches interpretations of scripture have been wrong in the past. They used to to justify slavery, the restriction of women, racism ect. and other persecutions, I find this to be no different. If you claim to be a true christian, I believe you should not concern yourself in deciding what is sinful and what is not “Judge not lest ye be Judged” according to christ your sole purpose on this church is to love thy neihbor as thyself and do everything in your power to help them in this world. I hardly consider thousands of gay teens killing themselves because of something they cannot control to be the will of God. It has been proven by psychological studies that gay people are deeply harmed by such condemnations by society. You must consider the consequences if your interpretation of scripture is wrong. It means you will be judged for the suffering that your neibhors endure. If you are wrong you will be judged because you chose to judge people rather than to accept them for who they are. Christ spoke out against hypocrisy. Not to mention most of the passages used to condemn homosexuality are from the old testament. There are many rules of the old law no one follows. Unless you are God, you have no right to pick and choose which passages in scripture to uphold and which to ignore. I find this to be pure and unmittigated bigotry and intolerance. You may claim that helping them repent from their sins. “Judge not lest ye be judged”. I don’t see how it is for you to decide what is sinful. The most emphatic message of christ was to love people above all else. Practice what you preach.

Well, again all this talk about religion & sin!
Religion is an invention of man and not THE ALMIGHTY !
There is but ONE SUPREME BEING and many religions ! 
Sin comes from man and not God !
Man has free will to chose between good & evil !
The 10 commandments, written down by Moses with the inspiration of God is the instruction manual to achieve good !
Men run religions and do evil, God runs the world through the righteous to bring peace and love to his children !
Don’t blame God for evil, it is man who does that !
The Almighty never required that there be a religion or religious people , only righteous people following the commandments of peace between all humans !
Men who use religion to get power and respect will always be sinners, whether religious or not, only the righteous of the world who follow the will of God will be able to bring peace & love into the world ! 
So whether, Christian, Islamic, Jewish or any other religion, if there are men there will be sin ! We all sin, but repenting our sins and doing good is what righteousness is all about !
God bless you all !

C. Bentley,

Hi! Tell you what - if you quote from something other than the bible to attempt to show the validity and/or truthfulness of the bible, I may be more inclined to pay attention. Otherwise, I tell you this: “‘Twas the Night Before Christmas” was divinely inspired, I most fervently believe. Don’t offend my beliefs by telling me otherwise. And lo, the sacred scripture states: “Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.” Literally, that means that NO living thing was stirring before our most precious lord and savior Santa made his appearance. Now, some have questions such as - Well, what is meant exactly by “creature?” Do bugs count as creatures? Well, to that, I say, it is perfectly clear to me that Santa also included insects and protozoans among the definition of “creatures,” but not plants. Of course, there are those who disagree, but they are WRONG and will be receiving COAL in their Christmas stockings unto all eternity, verily I sayeth unto you!

The sad thing is that not all religions promote this kind of hatred. Indeed, some value queer folk of all kinds and in all roles, but those religions tend to be small in number and stature. Unfortunately, the Abrahamic faiths have influence, if not outright control over a huge proportion of the Earth’s population.

I FIND IT EXTREMELY HYPOCRITICAL (OR AT LEAST, IGNORANT) THAT ANYBODY COULD ABHOR GAYS AND JUST SIMPLY OVERLOOK THE PEDOPHILE! I’D BE HORRIFIED IF I FOUND MY CHILD WAS BEING ‘OVERSEEN’(WHILE PERFORMING AS AN ALTAR BOY/GIRL) BY A PEDOPHILE! DOES NOBODY KNOW THE DISTINCT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO! NO - THEY JUST ‘RELOCATE’ THEM TO ANOTHER PARISH, THEN BEAT THE DRUMS OF HYPOCRICY! IGNORANCE IS DESTROYING THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY - NOT TO MENTION - OUR CHILDREN!

And yet, the ranks of the religion professionals have allways been full of homosexuals. Who do you think designed all those fabulous robes and gorgeous interiors?

To Shades51 #2948:

RE: Your bible is meaningless to me - and yes, I have read more of it over many years than most “typical” christians probably. God is all powerful but apparently was unable to state his “holy word” clearly, explicitly, and with no need of interpretation?

1 Cor. 2:14

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Well, tharpa, your questions are good ones. I only wish I had a few more lifetimes so I could become more knowledgable and perhaps wise to the lessons available from human history.

If what I’ve read and heard re Islam and Muslims amounts to “propaganda” then yes, I’ve fallen prey to it.

I understand that Islam teaches followers that they are NOT to be the first aggressor… that it’s OK to do whatever must be done to eliminate the infidel but only AFTER the infidel has made some “move” on the believer. Would part of the reason for Muslim non-aggression towards other countries lie in this instruction? I’m only asking… for sure, I don’t know.

It’s my view that religious people (at least the ones with whom I’m familiar) harbor a “situational ethic.” Believers have been at the game for centuries… millennia… and have worked out “answers” to virtually any challenge to their dogma.

Even a “commandment” as clearly and plainly fundamental as “Thou Shalt Not Kill” has been “modified” by “regulation” in so many ways as to give any “killer” practically a green light. There are exceptions piled onto conditions overlaid with notwithstandings to such an extent that to break any “rule” one just has to find or manufacture the appropriate justification. We do it as individuals and as nations.

It may be that I really should be praising Islam for being HONEST about its intentions… not to rest, or leave a soul alive, until everyone becomes a follower and believer. You’d never get that straighforward an approach in Christianity, especially Catholicism. With Christians it’s much more subtle… Oh no, you don’t have to become Christian… you just have to ACT as if you are and follow Christian “values” as defined by Christians from time to time.

Catholics that I know clearly demonstrate that, in spite of having volumes-full of sins to transgress, they don’t live in fear of committing any of them… they just go ahead and commit any misdeed they have in mind, and then head for the confessional and say a few “Hail Mary’s” to wipe the slate clean. What a joke!

Human sexuality is far too complex a variable to be brought under the effective control of any religion… unless, of course, the poor, brainwashed follower chooses to be, or needs to be controlled. There’s little or no hope for those individuals anyway so I don’t really waste my energy dealing with them. Not my job to fix the world! But if it was, the first thing I’d do is get rid of the major polluters… religions.

R.A. Earl,

nice post! I agree there is no point beating a dead horse on this stuff but cannot resist this little jab in reply:

if you really think it’s true what you say about most Muslims believing in the black vs white, fundamentally aggressive world you depict, then please explain (you don’t have to reply of course) how it is that a Muslim diaspora of over a billion has not invaded any non-Muslim countries this century?

Now, if I had to answer that question, I would reply: because they are too broke and disorganised to mount military operations against superior, wealthier countries, i.e. they haven’t caught up after the industrial revolution yet.

That begs the question: assuming they were as rich and powerful, would they all go on the warpath? And if so, is that because of Islam, or is that something to do with why many other small nations or regions which have grown powerful have then attempted expansionist Empire-building, nearly always relying on military conquest as the main tool? One thinks of Alexander, Rome, Napoleon, Germany, the Moghuls, the Mongols etc. In other words, there are so many non-Muslim examples of this that I think anyone would have a very hard time making a case the Islam is exceptional as a religion in encouraging violence.

In short: I think you have fallen prey to propoganda.

I still liked your post though, and do not in any way wish to sound insulting or derogatory. That sort of interchange is not cup of tea in any case. Life is too short.

During the early history of the church, homosexuals for fear of persecution, went into the clergy as this was a method of legitimizing their preference to not marry, to obscure the fact that they were gay, to gain a measure of respect within their community, to obtain some measure of power.
(Pardon for any misspellings...not my strong point.)
At least, this is the theory of a friend of mine in Spain, who having attended catholic schools in the early 80’s, had many times witnessed the hidden touching and caresses of the students, the intention of a intimate whisper between priest and student, the implied favor if something was done to please the instructors.

Regarding the article, The churches will certainly NOT condone the political activities of homosexuals because this would destroy the legitimacy of the church in society itself - doing what needs to be done to maintain the structure of the institution even if it involves denying that which provided, and provides, the sustainance of the institution.  (Pardon for any misspellings...)

Tharpa, I both agree and disagree with your comments…

You wrote

“But I think the way you characterized ‘Muslims’ in general was far more over-simplifying.”

I understand that Muslims who are true “believers” are taught that the greatest thing they can do to honor Allah is to “jihad” - participate in an ongoing war against ALL who are not believers. This religion teaches that it’s a far more grievous crime to not believe in Allah or to denigrate the name of Allah or Mohammed, the Prophet, than it is to KILL. And so on. This is just for starters. It’s black and white with Muslims. “Either you’re with us, or you are our ENEMY” and slitting the throat/beheading of an ENEMY is a “good thing.” Anytime. Anywhere. Anyhow.

I see NO WAY for co-existence between Muslims and non-Muslims. The Muslim philosophy of life and belief system is completely INCOMPATIBLE with both the secular and religious views of the “west.” (Yes, even the bizarre absurdities held by the Christians and others… at least Christ was fundamentally a pacifist.)

The entire issue of homosexuality is almost irrelevant in the face of such profoundly evil and dangerous attitudes as are preached and practised by true “believing” Muslims. Mohammed or Muhammed was first and foremost an aggressive, hate-mongering WARRIOR… he led armies into battles… he beheaded and otherwise murdered with his own hands, and ordered millions of his followers to do the same.

I don’t care what religion a person follows or doesn’t follow just so long as it doesn’t interfere with anyone else’s right to enjoy the life he or she wishes… including homosexuals.

As soon as any religious belief even URGES you to, in any way, threaten, harm or interfere with anyone else, you become a potential CRIMINAL in my view and should be treated as such the moment you act upon such idiotic teachings.

You also wrote:

“I do think that as well as respecting homosexuals we have to respect those who deplore their behaviour and feel that it influences situations beyond the bedroom alone, i.e. society at large, i.e. their own family life.”

Of course having homosexuals running free in society “influences...society at large.” So does each and every “variation” that appears in any heterogeneous group. Those who want a HOMOgeneous society… one where everyone thinks as they do, and does what they’re expected to do… should perhaps consider buying some bankrupt country, building a huge fence around it’s borders, and setting up their fascist police state any way they want it. It won’t work of course, but you’ll never tell a fundamentalist ANYTHING!

People, ignorant and fearful, are the problem. And since the world is FULL of such organisms, the problem isn’t going away anytime soon.

Your final point that “social groups need to be smaller” about heads my list of badly needed changes on this planet. But, as in the preceding paragraph, in this world where big is better, and all the financial strings are being held by “Global Corporation International” “smaller” just isn’t on the radar. Our BIOLOGY and PSYCHOLOGY attunes us to SMALL GROUP LIVING… look at aboriginal indigenous groupings.

Corporate and personal greed has gotten far out of control… what used to be “a chicken in every pot” is now an SUV (or two or three) in every driveway, along with all the other toys, bells and whistles Madison Avenue can convince the masses they need.

I’d better stop now… this could go on for pages. There’s no point. And, pardon my pessimism, there’s no hope for us that I can see. I’m convinced humans will not make any of the sacrifices necessary to “mend their ways” until FORCED to do so… and then it will be far too late.

R. A. Earl :

Now: imagine you’re a Muslim living in Iraq; or a Palestinian refugee, living over ten years now in settlements in Palestine. Or you have had a father killed in a drive-by bombing; or a sister; or a younger brother was picked up and had his testacles man-handled by grinning US GI-Janes. Or your cousin’s entire family was wiped out at a wedding celebration. Etc. etc. Etc. Now, read the following paragraphs which you wrote, imagining that one of the above people is saying it about America and Americans:

“ I’m a non-violent person, but this behavior infuriates me to the point where I’m not sure I wouldn’t take up arms. I don’t want to IMPOSE my way of life/thinking on them, BUT I WILL NOT ALLOW THEM TO IMPOSE THEIRS ON ME, and I guess, I support whatever it takes to prevent such having such fascism in my society.

Radical Western Imperialists need to learn that in a civilized society one either uses PEACEFUL means to bring about wanted changes, or you just won’t be allowed to participate in that society at all. It’s an awful irony that FORCE must be used to bring about PEACE. There’s something about this connundrum that really bothers me.”

Note that all I did was change one word ‘Muslim’ to ‘Western Imperialist’.

Now I’m not saying the whole thing is that simple. But I think the way you characterized ‘Muslims’ in general was far more over-simplifying.

People get angry and outraged for a reasons, both good and bad ones. And this relates back to the ‘inventing sin’ theme, or imposing your view on others that is our topic here. Just like you feel, despite being non-violent, that perhaps you might have to fight ‘them’ who are threatening your way of life, so some people feel that licensing homosexuality in society is essentialy a way of throwing our entire way of life to the dogs. That such behaviour is essentially evil, that it undermines any dignity, decency, honour. For some, this is as important as ‘freedom’.

This is not my point of view, exactly; but I do think that as well as respecting homosexuals we have to respect those who deplore their behaviour and feel that it influences situations beyond the bedroom alone, i.e. society at large, i.e. their own family life. It ain’t easy, this whole business, which is why it has been argued about for centuries!!

My personal feeling, fwliw, is that social groups need to be smaller, i.e. local communities should have far more say (including percent of tax receipts) in how they structure themselves, i.e. liberal, conservative, tight, loose etc.. But we live in the age of huge nation states with federal regulations and governments, not to mention the fact that we live in non-localised cultures, with automobiles, trains, telephones, internet etc. Makes things a bit hard to sort out…

In #3745, tharpa, asks, and then answers:

“I don’t get the problem. Unless it is that people just can’t let go of the sense that the RC or any other Xtian organisation somehow speaks for how reality is and therefore how we should or should not live.”

You’ve hit the nail on the head, tharpa, or at least you’ve landed a glancing blow.

The problem is as you’ve identified… there are many who think it’s quite OK for the “majority” to impose their values, rules and regulations on any and all minorities. They think that’s what “democracy” is all about… tyranny of the majority. Any member of a minority (and I think that all the minorities taken together constitute the majority of the population) objects to this but since they’re all divided up into separate groups, they’ve been “divided and conquered” by the larger minority (Christians).

One other thing… only 5-10% are gay or lesbian so the discrimination only directly affects them… not the 90-95% who are “straight.” When it’s not YOUR ox that’s being gored, it’s hard to generate much passion or enthusiasm to change things. I’m surprised there’s as much support for gay and lesbian issues in our society as there is.

This means to me that there are many “straight” people who DO understand that gays and lesbians have every bit as much right to the enjoyment of life as they do… only in a different way. Equal but different.

This gives me hope.

But then, there’s this Muslim thing… and I again despair… here we have MILLIONS who think theirs is the only correct way to believe and live, and are willing to KILL and DESTROY to have it their way.

I’m a non-violent person, but this behavior infuriates me to the point where I’m not sure I wouldn’t take up arms against them. I don’t want to IMPOSE my way of life/thinking on them, BUT I WILL NOT ALLOW THEM TO IMPOSE THEIRS ON ME, and I guess, I support whatever it takes to prevent such having such fascism in my society.

Radical Muslims need to learn that in a civilized society one either uses PEACEFUL means to bring about wanted changes, or you just won’t be allowed to participate in that society at all. It’s an awful irony that FORCE must be used to bring about PEACE. There’s something about this connundrum that really bothers me.

seems to me that the problem stems from the Abrahamic insistance that ‘our god is the one and only’, and therefore that all others are false. And people believe this to be true, seemingly. Otherwise why the fuss?

If the RC says that homosexuality is sinful, what’s the problem? If, in a democracy, RC congregation members want this sort of thing to be included in the legal framework of their society. Nothing wrong with that, just like, for example, setting up laws that forbid killing and stealing.

And if the RC says it will not honour a homosexual marriage, what’s the problem?

The problem is only if the RC (or any other church, denomination, organisation etc.) has the power to change or create laws that favour its agendas at the expense of others. In other words, the RC (as our example) should ideally not be able to make homosexuality itself illegal or have any say as to what the legal, civic definition of marriage is in terms of secular tax laws, hospital visitation rights etc. In fact, what right has the US govt as constituted to determine such things anyway? What has marriage got to do with citizenship? Why can’t gay partners see whomever they want in a hospital? In the current legal-societal setup in the US, most of these things shouldn’t even be issues anyway.

For example, if you want to set up a gay-only church, you can. If a lesbian only church you can.  A woman-only, man-only etc. club or church etc. you can. The RC can say: we won’t marry gays and we disapprove of gays. Whether you agree or disagree with their position, (for example that casual sex is essentially immoral), so what? Aren’t they entitled to their beliefs? Aren’t they also entitled to having prejudices, just like most people feel that murderers cannot be treated as ordinary law-abiding, trustworthy citizens. Or would you trust someone who always steals to work for you? Or someone who always lies to live with? So why not accept that for some people sexual mores are no less important. It’s not that outrageous a notion, since as most adults know, a huge amount of emotional damage happens around relationships, both to the partners involved, and/or related individuals (the wife whose husband is cheating on her, or the children whose family life is shattered by divorce etc. etc. ).

I don’t get the problem. Unless it is that people just can’t let go of the sense that the RC or any other Xtian organisation somehow speaks for how reality is and therefore how we should or should not live.

In the piece by Larry Gross, he refers to Paul’s alleged statements as printed in Romans 1 (KJV) and summarizes the jist of them as…

“Ultimately, the Catholic Church adopted the influential formulation of St. Augustine, taking as the core Christian belief a definition of sexuality as inherently sinful, and exculpated only by the sacrament of marriage and the need to procreate. All forms of sexual intercourse outside of marriage and the possibility of conception were sinful.”

This example clearly indicates that it is MAN not “God” or Jesus or any other mystical/mythical entity that has, bit by bit down through the ages, formed and formulated CHRISTIANITY.

This crap is fed to youngsters as GOD’S WORD before they have developed any ability to defend themselves. It is crystal clear to me that it’s ONLY intention is to CONTROL by psychological terrorism.

What kind of anal-retentive mental misfits come up with such classically idiotic remarks as “sexuality is inherently sinful” or “all forms of sexual intercourse outside of marriage and the possibility of conception were sinful?”

Better question yet… what kind of mini-minds actually BELIEVE this codswallop today?

It’s hilarious to think millions actually believe that women, over the age of 50, should never have sexual intercourse because after menopause they can’t conceive? Have you ever heard such nonsense?

Apologies in advance if you are one of those who actually believe this stuff. You have my sympathies. A mind is an awful thing to waste.

Reply to Shade51
-----I deny all of these books as guides to moral living or salvation. If I truly followed the precepts laid out in them, I’d be on death row. ------
The precepts in the Bible are there so you will NOT follow them. As I said before, much of the rules do not apply to us today.  (This is most of the Old Testament).  So, yes, you would be on death row.  We use lethal injection and stuff like that now, instead of stoning and crucifixion and the like.  Punishment hasn’t changed, and the rules haven’t changed much either.
---- God is all powerful but apparently was unable to state his “holy word” clearly, explicitly, and with no need of interpretation?----There should be NO need for debates about stuff like this if these holy books made sense to begin with.----
This is why I assumed you did not understand the Bible.  I don’t think I was incorrect with this assumption based upon what you have said.

Reply to R.A. Earl:
For R.A. Earl- You might as well just stop leaving your input.  It is wrong.  Maybe the Catholic church wanted just money and control, but that’s human mistake and not supposed to be equated with just religion.  Real Christianity does not call for a person to do anything to get to Heaven.  This is what makes it different than all the other ones (including old Catholicism).  They are not Christians because they do not follow Christ.  And since we are human, we can’t say we follow Him all the time.

To “Kevin” -

What makes you assume that I can’t understand what I read, that I would need someone’s “help” - or that I even SHOULD need help to understand what you would consider such obvious holy truth?

The bible is pretty clear about a lot of things - stoning people to death for working on the sabbath, to cite just one of many examples. So, is that to be read figuratively - killing is just supposed to mean “ostracize?” Not if the bible is to be believed literally.

I do agree with you that more people should really delve into the bible - not just the “greatest hits” - but all of it, including accounts of the atrocities not only sanctioned, but encouraged by god. The more people really read the bible - and if they are able to do so “objectively” as you suggest, the more they would realize it for what it is - an ancient book of myths mixed with some history, no more inpired than the myths of the ancient Greeks and Romans.

So, I’ll repeat what I said: I’m still here. If God wants to reveal the truth, he’s omnipotent and can do it in a heartbeat, in an infinite number of ways. Don’t tell me that he wrote or “inpired” a book that supposedly laid out his commands and precepts thousands of years ago and everyone should just accept that. If that’s the case, then everyone should also accept the Koran as well, since God supposedly laid out his precepts and commands through Mohammed some 1400 years ago. And while we’re at it - the Book of Mormon as well. At least God is supposed to have “inpired” that book relatively recently. Why should I or anyone else look to the bible for “truth?”

I deny all of these books as guides to moral living or salvation. If I truly followed the precepts laid out in them, I’d be on death row.

Reply to Shade51, #79: 
Just because the book doesn’t make sense to you, doesn’t mean that the book doesn’t make sense.  You shouldn’t just look at the Bible yourself.  Get people to help you read it.  Some concepts may be hard to understand.  There should be no debate about the book if people read it properly and took things as they were written.  Before something profound is stated about the Bible, research should be done thoroughly.  You don’t need me or God to interpret for you if you read objectively, draw logical conclusion, look at the overall historical context, and keep your ideas out of it.  I feel the Bible was pretty clear about homosexuality.  I also feel the 1st amendment is clear, but that has been interpreted improperly (somehow).  God has shown Himself explicitly. 

-----Know what? If god has something to teach me, something to say to me, then here I am.------
God did tell you something.  Just because He does not show up to you in a dream or something does not mean He did not tell you something.  Maybe He can use other people.  Don’t be upset if you interpret something wrong (unless you had your own agenda).  At least you read the Bible.  Now just practice studying harder.  It’s a deep book, and something everyone should get into.

Applause and hoorah for Shade51 in #79.

For a long time I thought there was something wrong with my brain. I read the Bible as instructed but the dang thing made less sense than a computer software manual translated from Japanese!

That got me to wondering what kind of “God,” if the intention was to COMMUNICATE with His/Her/It’s “creations,” would not only “authorize” but “inspire” such an incomprehensible and ill-edited anthology?

It took many years for the light to come on, but when it did, I understood that the entire purpose of the Bible project was to play games with people’s heads… to generate FEAR and then take CONTROL. What a neat pschological mindf**k! First we’ll convince you that you’re a sick sinner, and then, for a fee, we’ll give you just enough imaginary “medicine” to keep you functioning until next Sunday when another “donation” will be required. Holy Crap what a business!

Even better, how about we create another similar but different “instruction manual” and call it the Koran or Qu’ran or whatever. And we’ll instruct those who get this one stuffed into their heads that those who believe in the “other” one called “The Bible” are INFIDELS and should all be killed.

And then sit back and watch the dust up.

Boy, has it worked!

I wish I had talent to draw a cartoon! I’d have a depiction of Christ in drag (not much of a stretch, I admit) inviting Mohammed, with his dark flashing eyes and swashbuckling ways, to “come up and see me sometime” on the Mount!

Ok, Earl:I did read all the comments before I wrote my note, certainly in hopes of learning something.I will, however, write no more comments on this essay.
I did learn a few things, but I also re-learned that there is no point in arguing with someone who isn’t thinking (not you)… I can’t agree more with you re the US not owning the internet or world; some of us depend on the rest of the world to somehow save us in the US from our dawning fascist state.Yes, maybe that’s the problem. Only in the last few years have I understood the helplessness felt by many anti-Nazi Germans… I did also learn what the conventions of comments on the internet are.

“Kevin” states:
“The Bible clearly states that Sodom and Gommorah were sexually perverse and that was their downfall.  The God of the Jews and Christians is not a homosexual.”

Know what? If god has something to teach me, something to say to me, then here I am. Let him tell me directly rather than leaving things so that I need “professionals” and people like you to interpret ancient “scripture” for me. Your bible is meaningless to me - and yes, I have read more of it over many years than most “typical” christians probably. God is all powerful but apparently was unable to state his “holy word” clearly, explicitly, and with no need of interpretation? Let god avoid all the middlemen and their pontificating and let him set the record straight directly to his people. Let him appear on all the TV channels some evening in prime time like a State of the Union address. Let him say to everyone, in every language, clearly, with no room for doubt - I am the lord your god, and I love fags, but hate faggotry. Debate over. There should be NO need for debates about stuff like this if these holy books made sense to begin with.

To robert davies #77

A few things…

Forums are group conversations. Are you suggesting that each has only ONE or two opportunities to participate? Why? Are you in a rush to get somewhere? You don’t have to stick around and read what we write, you know.

Such idiocy. I agree… sometimes what’s posted is really “out there” perhaps even some of my own.

And about “gradeschool spats and spits"… what do you expect? It is obvious that poorly educated people FAR OUTNUMBER well educated ones not only in the USA but likely in most other countries as well. But even amongst all this “chaff” there are kernels of wheat. If you weren’t in such a rush you might find them and even appreciate and learn from them.

One last thing that I think needs mentioning from time to time (although it has nothing to do with this response to robert davies)…

DEAR USA FRIENDS… The internet is not a private “club” by & for Americans. Please keep in mind that you do not OWN or CONTROL or HAVE EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO… THE INTERNET. The WORLD is watching every word you write. Around the world people have views and opinions that are every bit as wise or stupid as yours. The WORLD has every bit as much right to participate fully in all public forums as you do.

I think multiple comments should be out of order: it nearly makes this reader go out of his mind. Such idiocy over and over. Maybe one additional comment in reply to another’s comment would be okay. But as is, the whole thing seems like grade schoolspats/spits.

Re ywhgwb’s #74 parting shot…

“And anyhow, the god of the Jews and Christians was a homosexual.”

Are you trying to start a WAR? Today’s Christians wouldn’t accept that premise if we had video of Him and the 12 Disciples engaged in an orgy in a Roman bathouse!

But it does seem a little odd that with one or two exceptions, all his time was reportedly spent with his male friends. Of course, we apparently know nothing of Jesus’ dalliances, sexual or otherwise, from age of puberty until 30 when He hit the big time lecture circuit. That’s a long time to spend in any closet.

True believers I’m sure just don’t want to deal with this aspect of their Saviour’s behavior… there’s no “evidence” so each is free to ASSUME whatever turns him/her on.

But it sure would be fun to watch Christianity go berzerk if irrefutable evidence ever does surface to determine this issue conclusively. But then, any such evidence, if it even hinted that Jesus was homosexual, would be so deeply buried by “the Church” it would be at risk of being ejaculated from the molten core of the earth in one of Vesuvius’ eruptions!

Reply to #74:  That site is a joke.  I read one article “The abominable sodomosexual” and it made no sense at all.  Reading the verses it cites totally contradicts what it is trying to say.  The Bible clearly states that Sodom and Gommorah were sexually perverse and that was their downfall.  The God of the Jews and Christians is not a homosexual.  He cannot be what He detests.  He would have been punished for this instead of being King of the Jews.  There is no possible way He could have been homosexual.
------- So what if gays and lesbians don’t want to be plumbers. ----- Then they choose to sin.  That’s your simple answer to such a simple question. 
If you are going to read articles from sites like http://www.godisajoke.com, then you need to read the Bible references for yourself and see if what the article says matches what the Bible says.  I can tell you right now by looking at just one article, that the rest probably are false as well.

Larry Gross writes about the Church and homosexuality, a tired subject for how relentless the Reich is in defaming decent human beings who are not meant to be plumbers. Plumbers fit the male thread to the female thread. So what if gays and lesbians don’t want to be plumbers. Not all people have to be plumbers. Some can be carpenters cutting different paths. Jesus was a carpenter.

And anyhow, the god of the Jews and Christians was a homosexual.

See more at http://www.godisajoke.com

Reply to #72: -----My apologies. I mistook you for a correspondent who wanted to learn something.-----

You were mistaken.  You want to teach me mr. Earl?  When you make sense, maybe I’ll listen.  When you actually make some logical arguments instead of crazy, hurtful attacks of opinions, maybe I’ll listen.  I don’t think it was an absolute waste of time.  Apparently the conversation is over.  I hope you learned something.  I think I’ve been the one to point out the “fundamental ignorance” in you.  Key, basic concepts have eluded people’s minds, and these things need to be corrected.  All of you followers need to start thinking for yourselves.  How bigoted of you to call me bigoted.  Apology accepted.

To Kevin in #70:

My apologies. I mistook you for a correspondent who wanted to learn something.

We all realize now that all you really wanted was an opportunity to broadcast your blind Christian prejudices and profound bigotry.

Well, you’ve done it. And those two obvious character flaws are only outclassed by your unbelievable fundamental ignorance about almost everything.

As Shakespeare wrote in “The Winter’s Tale” (2.1.173-4)… “Either thou are most ignorant by age, or thou wert born a fool.”

I also apologize to all others for wasting time and space in this “dig” by engaging Kevin on this topic. I should have known better.

Re #66 - Adamchik

Let me see if I understand you. G-d created the world and everything in and on it and then, in writing, set up “very complicated rules for understanding what is to be understood literally in the bible, and what is not.”

Further, He added to the obfuscation the requirement that “The amount of critical thinking and reasoning involved in understanding Talmudic discussions goes far beyond nearly any modern science or Ivy League education (this you can believe). The Masechta of Eruvin is more difficult material than FASB statements, the US Code, or Stephen Hawkin.”

So, loosely interpreted, unless you have the IQ of an Einstein, it’s unlikely that you’ll ever understand what G-d wants.

And this MAKES SENSE TO YOU?

With all due respect, sir, I don’t care how far back into history the Jews or any other race or group can reach for “instructions” from G-d. Just because something is OLD is proof to me that it is nothing more than it’s OLD. Why do you accept that a “scripture” scratched on a 2,000 or 3,000 year old scroll is any more “truth from G-d” than what is published by today’s scribes? Do you really believe that all these ancient scribes were super intelligent messengers from G-d and that, as part of the game, G-d buried His message in the sands to be stumbled over by modern day Indiana Joneses? (By the way… when was the last time “we” received an authenticated “message from G-d” in written form?

If you actually believe this stuff, or anything close to it, you and I couldn’t peacefully coexist in the same conversation for more than a few minutes. I think it’s nothing more than ancient storytelling that some today, with only the fewest fragments in hand, forge ahead to construct “the whole truth.” I have a very low tolerance for glib opinion and unsupported assumptions when they’re being pawned off as Godspeak! Opinion and assumption doesn’t gain authenticity and value with TIME.

I consider it NONSENSICAL to accept that a G-d exists who is hoping for the adoration and worship of the billions of uneducated, low IQ people with which He’s obviously populated this planet. Who or what in It’s right mind would have created those expectations ESPECIALLY when He/She/It determined that there be an “unbroken tradition ... not for the gullible, unthinking or stupid.  It is spectacularly subtle...”?

Sorry… my philosophy of life is based on the KISS principle. But then, heh, heh, I’m not G-d.

Reply to Earl #67:
The homosexuals most certainly have a movement.  God DID NOT make homosexuals.  Another ignorant statement.  Homosexuality is a result of environment, family life, and other issues.  It’s a choice and part of growth.  They may feel like it is overwhelming, but it can be overcome.  Look at the homes that homosexuals come from.  Usually single parent homes.  If I’m not opposed to something, then I must be SUPPORTING it.  Live in ignorance?  You are telling me that homosexuality is healthy and natural?  Come back to reality.
Many people are misinterpreting the Bible because they don’t study it.  It speaks on judging others, but not against it.  If someone is doing something wrong, you are to tell them unless you have a “beam in your own eye.” Basically, I can’t be hypocrytically.  I’m not perfect, but I try. 
1st Corinthians 6:3 “Do you not know that we will judge angels?  How much more matters of this life?”
Luke 12:57 “ And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?”
Jesus speaks of marriage between a man and a woman.  He also quotes from the Old Testament which contains information against homosexuality. 
The homosexual movement insults the American family and many people’s beliefs on marriage and relationships.  There are a small number of homosexuals, and yet they are known around the nation.  This is most definitely a dangerous movement.  They will ruin families and social structure.  They are speaking out and creating notions that Christians are against them.  We are against what they practice, not them as people.

Reply to #68:

Hey bud, where do whales live?  Oh yeah, the WATER!  I bet Jonah would have to take them on his boat.  They can’t breathe under water or anything.  Oh my goodness.  Can we please get intelligent responses instead of crazy attacks, please?

#63. Comment by Kevin on 1/20 at 6:01 pm

“Do I believe Jonah could have built a boat to survive the flood with all the animals?  Well, it took him and his sons about 60 years or something, and they were bigger, had more oxygen, and they had the time.  They took all baby animals most likely, and God helped with that.”

I actually laughed out loud while reading this paragraph. It’s funny on so many levels.
I can’t help but wonder, how did Jonah fit two whales on his Ark?

Re Kevin’s rant in #65…

ALL NONSENSE.

I’d be hard pressed to find such a monumental collection of codswallop in any other posting on the internet.

It’s fascinating to watch the fundamentalist mentality move as fast as the speed of light to disaster-mongering (sex with 8 year olds, sex with animals) when it runs into the brick wall that is reality but which doesn’t agree with their poured-in-concrete, black-and-white prejudices.

I especially delight in this diatribe that Kevin posted above…

“If you want me to support an unnatural, unhealthy (in many ways) sexual partnership, you’re wrong.  The homosexual movement interferes in with my beliefs.”

Kevin, as usual, misses the point entirely. The main one being… HOMOSEXUALS, OR ANY OTHER LIVING SPECIES ON THE PLANET DON’T NEED YOUR PERMISSION OR SUPPORT TO LIVE LIFE IN FREEDOM FROM YOUR “BELIEFS.”

There is NO “homosexual movement” any more than there is a “black movement.” How dare you point your arrogant, hypocritical nose in the air and characterize, in such a degrogatory tone, the complaints of documented discrimination and abuse by an individual or group as a “movement” as if those you are discriminating against don’t have the right to complain!

It’s YOUR “beliefs” that are the problem… they’re STOMPING ALL OVER OTHER PEOPLE’S RIGHT TO LIVE IN FREEDOM ...FROM… YOUR BELIEFS. If you want to believe that a loving, homosexual relationship is one that is “unnatural” and “unhealthy” then fine… believe it and live in ignorance. Acutally, it’s not even that your wacko “beliefs” that are the problem… it’s that you can’t just believe what you want to believe without trying to IMPOSE them on others.

Since your “God” made everything, He made homosexuals. Who the hell are you to play judge and jury as to why? I understand you believers are INSTRUCTED IN THE BIBLE… “Do not judge lest ye be judged” or something like that. Can’t you even follow your own rule book?

And please quote me from your Bible, where JESUS said even ONE WORD against homosexual relationships?

I can hardly wait to hear your explanation of how the “homosexual movement,” that exists only in your mind, actually “interferes with your beliefs.” When was the last time any homosexual mouthed off with such garbage as you do to try to “interfere with your beliefs?”

Many of the responses to my post remind me of why Jews do not usually engage in conversations of this nature, since the Jewish bible in English, without the Talmud and other background material, is simply unrecognizable to the original, with its accompanying commentaries and lengthy discussions.

In brief, yes, G-d did in fact make many things known about his plan for the the world through the Torah, Talmud, Midrash, etc.  Yes, G-d also created creatures with desires, not all of which we are supposed to act upon.  Mankind is unique in its endowment of free will - the basic purpose of creation is to choose a relationship with G-d, as our limited minds are able to understand it.

This relationship between G-d and mankind is different for Jew and non-Jew, but some issues (such as the prohibition against homosexuality) are clearly universal.  One of the non-Jews’ roles is to perfect the physical world (partly why they may not observe the Sabbath the same way that Jews should), so their role is clearly critical in the grand scheme of things.

There are very complicated rules for understanding what is to be understood literally in the bible, and what is not.  Generally, none of the ideas about six days of the creation of the world or early Genesis stories are meant to be taken literally (Maimonides’ Moreh N’Vuchim [Guide to the Perplexed] is probably the most important on this issue).  This is a very complicated discussion, one that is almost universally misunderstood by Christians, due to the number of sources and commentaries required to understand the issues.  Many other stories did actually occur, in whole or in part.

The amount of critical thinking and reasoning involved in understanding Talmudic discussions goes far beyond nearly any modern science or Ivy League education (this you can believe).  The Masechta of Eruvin is more difficult material than FASB statements, the US Code, or Stephen Hawking.

Suggestions that our activities are our wallowing in ignorance are simply the product of their own sort of ignorance.  One cannot have spent time wrestling with this material the way it was meant to be wrestled with and conclude that we do it because we are idiots - it just must be from lack of exposure.

Our unbroken tradition is not for the gullible, unthinking or stupid.  It is spectacularly subtle, shows empathy for human frailty and the difficulties of understanding free will, and respect for our own limited capacity for reason. 

One should prepared for the fact that some of their desires, wants, or behaviors are not in fact what they are supposed to be doing.  This sort of humility is an important start.

Maintaining the tradition that came to us from Sinai (for which there is a lot more foundation than you might imagine) and critical thinking are not mutually exclusive.

Robert Aumann’s 2005 Nobel Prize in Economics founded on Talmudic logic and game theory is but a single, recent example of the absolute cutting edge of science, inquiry, and traditional Judaism prospering together.

“G-d does not play dice with the universe” - Albert Einstein

“The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right” - Judge Learned Hand

I think I gave plenty of reasons why I don’t think some lifestyles should be practiced.  Homosexuals should not be surprised if a church has a problem with their lifestyle.  You cannot go to a real church and practice homosexuality without expecting any help or being unable to become a member. 
Why do you think we have these inalienable rights?  Where did they come from?  Who said you have them?  The government?  Because we are made in the image of God, that’s why we have these inalienable rights.  You don’t want to interfere with others’ lives?  Then why do we set an age for drinking, smoking, and sexual intercourse?  We can’t interfere in other’s lives.  They have the choice, right?  Why can’t an 8 year old have sex with an adult?  Why can’t people have sex with animals?  If you want me to support an unnatural, unhealthy (in many ways) sexual partnership, you’re wrong.  The homosexual movement interferes in with my beliefs.  I’m not attacking homosexuals.  I’m attacking their movement. 
“My rules” are what this country is built upon.  They are good rules and we will see the consequences of not obeying them.

I hope it’s not inappropriate of me to suggest that it’s my view that each of us born on this planet as an inalienable RIGHT to love who we wish, live how we wish, work at what we wish, think and feel and philosophize as we wish, write the music and sing the songs we wish and believe as we wish WITHOUT INTERFERENCE from anyone, any organization, institution, religion or government, just so long, of course, as our journey through life doesn’t interfere with other people’s right to do the same.

IT’S NO ONE’S BUSINESS WHAT I DO WITH MY LIFE. Is that so outrageous to expect or difficult to understand?

If you don’t agree that each of us should have this freedom to exist as we wish may I request you list for us YOUR REASONS WHY NOT?

(I don’t want to hear the reasons you’ve cribbed from any other source… bible, religions, other “authorities"… that just suck-up, mindless parroting of what you’ve been told to do and/or conditioned to believe. I want YOUR ORIGINAL REASONS WHY ALL OTHERS SHOULDN’T BE FREE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES AS THEY WISH WITHOUT INTERFERENCE FROM YOU and YOUR RULES.)

Reply #62..."Well written and researched?” Righhhht.  Sounds like opinions to me.  Also seems to focus a lot on the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church has had so many problems and hs been so corrupt.  That’s why Martin Luther did what he did and the United Stated got away from that kind of overzealous, money-hungry, ritualistic religion.  I have not dismissed any verifiable science.  The verifiable science just supports the Biblical (historical) information given to us over 1500 years.  Many people distort the facts to help support their own agenda or their ideas of who God should be.
We go by rules that have been handed down over the centuries and accepted by millions.  Our Forefathers used the Bible to form the Constitution.  The separation of church and state was imposed to keep the state out of the churches affairs(since they were controlled by the king), and to keep crazy theological radicals out of the state.  If it is in the Bible, then it is clearly not radical.  God gave us rules to follow so that we would have better, safer lives.  Since we as a country have not followed them we have more diseases than ever, high numbers of single parents, ruined relationships, drunk driving....  God’s not out to hurt us or lessen our free choice.  Just like your parents give you rules that may not make sense, God gives some too.  Just because you disagree or don’t understand, doesn’t mean that it is not good for mankind. People are imperfect.  You’re going to find a lot of bad examples on both sides of the issue…

Misc Bits:

Well written & researched “dig”. 

Typical that verifiable science is once again dismissed when it conflicts with one’s world-view.

“When the pulpit addresses our politicians, the IRS should be right there: Representation without taxation.—Comment by Lohitaksha on 12/15 at 7:12 pm”
Best comment I’ve seen on the whole Church/State topic in ages.

How very sad to see the comments devolve into attacks.
“Can’t we all just get along?”
-Rodney King
No, Mr. King we cannot; humanity refuses to grow up.

Reply to #60:
If you want to talk about FACTS, you need to get some first.  You can’t just make facts up.  Facts in regard to the creation of the earth and it’s inhabitants are only based on ideas that make as much sense as possible from the remains we have because we cannot test it in a lab.  You say the Bible is “mixed up and crazy,”, and yet thousands of scholars all over the world are studying it every day and learning from it.  Millions use it daily.  I think you are in the minority on that one, bud.  Do I believe that the God who is omnicient, omnipotent, and who created the world could take a rib from Adam and make someone else?  Well, yes I do.  The events in the Bible actually occurred.  There are many intricate details that could not have been made up.  Do I believe a flood covered the earth?  Well, it says it happened in the Bible, and the earth definitely shows signs of a mass flood even now.  So yeah, I guess I do.  Do I believe Jonah could have built a boat to survive the flood with all the animals?  Well, it took him and his sons about 60 years or something, and they were bigger, had more oxygen, and they had the time.  They took all baby animals most likely, and God helped with that.  You say “christian values were CLEARLY plagarized.” Okay, I’m glad you have all-knowing insight on that subject.  Some may seem plagarized because it was a universal truth that was being presented again.  If you BELIEVE in evolution, you have NO facts to support what you believe.  I have written historical documents from many, many years ago (some originals) to back me up.  Along with common sense and observation, my claims make absolutely plenty of sense.  You make absolutely no sense in your last paragraph.  YOU ALSO CONTRADICTED YOURSELF IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH.  YOU SAY, “EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE DESIGNED TO HAVE A LIFESPAN, AND THEN DISAPPEAR” You’re right.  Everything is DESIGNED to do that.  It didn’t just get that way on it’s own.  That wasn’t the original design, until man messed things up in th