By Carla Herwitz, February 13: “Truthdig is sloppy… no one will answer me.... how do I ever know if anyone has an opinion on anything that I say that is important...”

Uhh, this is NOT “a decent blog”, Carla. Its run by a bunch of lazy, good-fer-nuthin’ laid back hippie refugees from the 1970’s.

I know there are more important things but I copied this response from another topic:-

As an unregistered commenter, you haven’t a chance. This is a “blog” but not a “forum”, sad to say. In other words, for regular commenters, it is a frustrating incompetent mess.

The reason for all that is because it was started by a supposedly trendy California professor of journalism but the only people he is interested in have $$MONEY or lots of “summa cum laude” accolades at the very least. He also hates the wives of former presidents....

see what al gore had to say about this yesterday on his first video post. it looks like he is running for the office.
http://current.com/people/algore

105751 I’d like to add John it seems that Norman Solomon agrees with you.

“The warfare state doesn’t come and go. It can’t be defeated on Election
Day,” writes media critic Norman Solomon in his new book, Made Love, Got
War: Close Encounters with America’s Warfare State. Like it or not, it’s at
the core of the United States - and it has infiltrated our very being.”
Norman Solomon joins us in our firehouse studio to about the book.

Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/03/1349247

105725

Well John, I see it as Ernest does. Why transport nuclear material while having a world wide dirty bomb attack simulation? Also add in the fact they(the military) were in similar mode during the 9/11 attacks. One more attack or accident is all it will take for Bush to declare marshal law. These people are out of their freaking minds! They are madmen! I can only pray at this point the two of you are wrong.

US WAR ALERT TO RUSSIA AND WESTERN ALLIES

http://www.nworeport.com/waralert.htm

105403 Ernest I remember some of those assassinations you’re talking about. These were the times I stopped believing all the John Wayne bullshit that we were the good guys. We haven’t been the good guys since WW2. Then we saved the world from fascism only to ultimately become fascist ourselves. No small wonder as to why my 83 year old WW2 Vet buddy asks today, “Why did we fight Hitler in the first place?”

105475 Well Cy although it’s true that candidates are not responsible for who latches on to them they can make public announcements denouncing such endorsements. I haven’t seen Ron Paul do that have you? Also what candidates say and what they do are often two different things. Out of all the republicans, I in fact like Ron Paul the best. If only for his stance on this trumped up war. I would feel a whole lot better about him however if he denounced these neo-Nazi’s.

One question though in lieu of lower taxes, how will that create new jobs? Since Bush has lowered them(on the rich) we have 5 million more people in poverty today then we did six years ago. Also local taxes have gone sky high because the feds cut spending to state sponsored programs. This included funding to retrofit our bridges and repave our roadways. Supply side economics didn’t work with Reagan and isn’t working with Bush unless you believe any money at all ever trickles down to the poor. With the free ride the wealthiest of Americans have been getting(in war time to boot) we are losing jobs not gaining them. We are also de-valuating our own currency due to massive debt caused by massive borrowing, just to keep these ridicules tax cuts afloat. While domestic spending curtails out of existence, tax cuts to the rich continue to grow along with the massive debt. We are all suffering from health care to agricultural inspections because of no funding.

I believe it is not government that should be drowned in the bathtub, just the politicians. Our priorities are out of order, not our system. Defense spending is the real problem, along with corporate welfare, not domestic programs. No small wonder why compared to other industrialized nations we are 17th in the world educationally and in last place when it comes to universal health care or in taking care of our people(to help them better take care of themselves), something a great nation must do to remain great.

CY, if you get the chance, you should read Robert O’Harrow, “No Place to Hide.” One of the primary means by which government has been able to get around existing restrictions on data collection is to outsource it.  Private companies using super-computers and data collection techniques have created systems capable of retrieving complete dossiers on any US citizen in a span of seconds.  Any effort to protect privacy must extend to both government and private corporations.

Kennedy’s was not the only assassination on U.S. soil where the name “George Bush” surfaced.  On 9/21/76 Virgilio Paz & Dionisio Suarez detonated a remote controlled bomb in DC, killing Salvador Allende’s former defense minister, Orlando Letelier, and American Ronni Moffit, who drowned in her own blood.  Paz & Suarez were connected to the Cuban Nationalist Movement, a small, neo-fascist group based in Miami.  Both men later surfaced as hit men for the Columbia Drug Mafia.  Suarez did a stint with the Contras.

The Letelier assassination was part of Operation Condor, which of course is tied to Agosto Pinochet’s secret police, the DINA.  In 1975, Manuel Sepulveda, the head of the DINA and a CIA surrogate engaged in a series of secret meetings with CIA Dep. Director Vernon Walters before being introduced to the anti-Castro Cubans in Miami by the CIA’s Thomas Clines.

In 1975 the CIA was under investigation by the Church Committee and potentially faced a Justice Department of alleged crimes committed by U.S. officials in Chile.  Richard Helms, along with ITT chairman Richard Green, were implicated.  Helms told a friend that if charged he would drag down Kissinger.  DCI Wm. Colby did the unthinkable.  He began to cooperate with the Congressional investigation. Pres. Ford sacked him, and on the urging of Don Rumsfeld, appointed George H.W. Bush as the new DCI.  Bush promptly made it clear he had no intent on allowing his predecessor’s window into the inner workings of the CIA to remain open.

Eight weeks prior to the Letelier assassination, on 7/26/76, George Landau, the Ambassador to Paraguay, sent DCI Bush a cable passing on what Landau regarded as an extraorinary request by the Paraguayan government to provide US entry visas to two Chilean intelligence officers with Paraguayan passports who claimed they would be meeting with top CIA officials in Washington.  Bush did not send a reply until Aug. 4, telling Landau the CIA “wanted nothing to do with the mission.” But by then Landau had already issued the visas.

In “Prelude to Terror” Joseph Trento asserts the delay was occasioned by Bush’s assistant, Ted Shackley whom he claims “sat on the cable.” While that is possible, it is also possible Bush chose to delay the reply’s content to erect a plausible denial.* This is enhanced by the fact the CIA did nothing to stop the DINA agents, who openly entered the country on Aug. 22, even after the Chilean Embassy notified the CIA of the agents’ arrival in Washington DC.  During the ensuing Justice Department investigation, Bush failed to turn over CIA files and “defended DINA against accusations that it conducted the assassinations.”

*Referencing Iran-Contra testimony, Mark Lane noted:  “Bush routinely keeps a diary of plausible deniability, with the same skill employed by a crooked accountant who maintains two sets of books, one of them cooked.”

W. H. Auden “The Unknown Citizen”

(To JS/07/M/378) This Marble Monument Is Erected by the State)

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be

One against whom there was no official complaint,

And all the reports on his conduct agree

That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint

For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.

Except for the War till the day he retired

He worked in a factory and never got fired,

But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.

Yet he wasn’t a scab or odd in his views,

For his Union reports that he paid his dues,

(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)

And our Social Psychology workers found

That he was Popular with his mates and liked to drink.

The Press are convinced that he bought a Paper every day

And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.

Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured

And his Health-card shows he was once in a hospital but left it cured,

Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare

He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan

And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,

A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.

Our researchers into Public Opinion are content

That he held the proper opinions for the time of year;

When there was peace he was for peace when there was war he went.

He was married and and added five children to the population,

Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation,

And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.

Was he free? Was he Happy? The question is absurd:

Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.

Illegal Surveillance Programs, Data Mining and the Secret to Becoming like W.S. Auden’s “The Unknown Citizen”
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/163780/illega l_surveillance_programs_data.html

105085 Ernest I caught the gist of what you were saying. What I meant by involvement was that perhaps Haldeman and J.E. Hoover had information and didn’t bother to share it. As we know Hoover hated the Kennedy’s. It wouldn’t surprise me that he might suppress information and allow it to happen, just as Bush may have known of 9/11 and did nothing.

105203 Hey Cy before you consider voting for Ron Paul you might wish to see this.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/ron-pau l-one-388512.html

Getting back to the Data Mine, on 10/5/07 Democracy Now! revealed that two leading peace activists, Retired Army Col. Ann Wright, who served in Afhganistan, and Code Pink’s Medea Benjamin were denied access into Canada because their names appeared on an FBI-run, international data base.  Wright says Canadian officials told her any time a name appears on the NCIC list, they don’t question it.  (Their “criminal” records entail engaging in non-violent civil disobedience).

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/05/1419236

The actions of the Canadian officials was questioned by Olivia Chow, a member of Canada’s parliament who said “peaceful protest is not criminal activity” and that the standards for admission should be decided by the Canadian government and not by a foreign body.

I wonder.  Would it really be all that big a leap if the government took the next step and began to bar travel of anyone who criticizes the Bush regime--i.e. 78% of our adult population.

Special report

New revelations in attack on American spy ship

Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly ‘67 incident

10.02.2007 | The Chicago Tribune
By John Crewdson
Tribune senior correspondent

Bryce Lockwood, Marine staff sergeant, Russian-language expert, recipient of the Silver Star for heroism, ordained Baptist minister, is shouting into the phone.

“I’m angry! I’m seething with anger! Forty years, and I’m seething with anger!”

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy’s most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they’re also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.

“They tried to lie their way out of it!” Lockwood shouts. “I don’t believe that for a minute! You just don’t shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!”

Four decades later, many of the more than two dozen Liberty survivors located and interviewed by the Tribune cannot talk about the attack without shouting or weeping.

Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency’s position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots—communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.

The documents also suggest that the U.S. government, anxious to spare Israel’s reputation and preserve its alliance with the U.S., closed the case with what even some of its participants now say was a hasty and seriously flawed investigation.

In declassifying the most recent and largest batch of materials last June 8, the 40th anniversary of the attack, the NSA, this country’s chief U.S. electronic-intelligence-gatherer and code-breaker, acknowledged that the attack had “become the center of considerable controversy and debate.” It was not the agency’s intention, it said, “to prove or disprove any one set of conclusions, many of which can be drawn from a thorough review of this material,” available at http://www.nsa.gov/liberty .

An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mark Regev, called the attack on the Liberty “a tragic and terrible accident, a case of mistaken identity, for which Israel has officially apologized.” Israel also paid reparations of $6.7 million to the injured survivors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the Liberty itself.

But for those who lost their sons and husbands, neither the Israelis’ apology nor the passing of time has lessened their grief.

One is Pat Blue, who still remembers having her lunch in Washington’s Farragut Square park on “a beautiful June afternoon” when she was a 22-year-old secretary for a law firm.

Blue heard somebody’s portable radio saying a U.S. Navy ship had been torpedoed in the eastern Mediterranean. A few weeks before, Blue’s husband of two years, an Arab-language expert with the NSA, had been hurriedly dispatched overseas.

As she listened to the news report, “it just all came together.” Soon afterward, the NSA confirmed that Allen Blue was among the missing.

“I never felt young again,” she said.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=1251

CY--at last something upon which you and I can agree--that we were lied to from day one about the Kennedy assassination. 

Lane’s “Plausible Denial” is an evidence-based presentation.  He does not suggest that the FBI was complicit in the plot to assassinate because he has not uncovered evidence of FBI complicity.  He does contend the FBI was complicit in the cover-up because he has evidence of “that” complicity, just as he has presented direct evidence of a CIA/anti-Castro Cuban involvement in the plot to assassinate (especially Ms. Lorenz’s testimony) and just as he presents evidence to debunk the Warren Commission report and which irrefutably shows that the CIA was both active in the cover-up and in launching scurrilous personal attacks on anyone who dared to publish a critique of the Warren Commission report.  (But don’t take my word for it.  Go to your public library and check it out.  Mark Lane, “Plausible Denial:  Was the CIA Involved in the Assassination of JFK” (Thunder’s Mouth Press)(1991)).

Like Lane, I am a lawyer.  While I will listen to theories, I cannot accept them absent supporting evidence.  “Plausible Denial” is a sustained, fact-filled legal presentation that makes for a convincing case that elements within empire’s covert dimension assassinated President Kennedy, including the reasons why that assassination was been carried out.  Over the past 44 years America has failed to confront that body of evidence.  Over the past sixty-plus years America has failed to confront the dastardly deeds of empire’s fascist-like covert dimension carried out in our name.  I believe that much of our nation’s present malaise is attributable to that failure and to the blow-back engendered by the fascists’ efforts to create a “New World Order.”

Michael Shaw:  After re-reading your posts, I think I need to clarify something.  Lane does not suggest that Haldemann was involved in the Kennedy assassination.  Instead, he quotes from Haldeman’s book in which Haldemann references the instance in which the CIA’s Richard Helms came unglued when Haldemann relayed Nixon’s instructions to tell Helms that he thought Watergate was connected with the Bay of Pigs.  Haldemann stated in his book that afterwords he realized that the Bay of Pigs reference referred to the Kennedy assassination.  Haldemann added, “after Kennedy was killed, the CIA launched a fantastic cover-up” and that, “The CIA literally erased any connection between Kennedy’s assassination and the CIA.”

Recall that Gerald Ford was an obscure Michigan congressman with an undistinguished record until Nixon designated Ford as his vice president, a designation that took place in the wake of the scandal-driven Spiro Agnew resignation and which occurred at the height of the breaking Watergate scandal.  Many have speculated that Nixon held out the carrot of the presidency in order to secure a promise for the presidential pardon that promptly followed Nixon’s resignation.  However, if Haldemann’s assessment is accurate, if the ever-conniving Nixon knew enough about the CIA’s role in the Kennedy assassination to threaten Helms, then it also seems likely that Nixon would have been aware of Ford’s FBI connections while Ford served on the Warren Commission--knowledge that would have allowed Nixon to hold out Ford’s illegal funneling of secret information to DeLoach as the stick that would ensure the pardon.

Finally, during her testimony in the Hunt v. Liberty Lobby case, Marita Lorenz identified Orlando Bosch as one of the individuals accompanying her in the two-car caravan which traveled from Miami to Dallas in Nov. 1963.  Bosch, whose CORU network had been linked to the Contra supply operation in the 1980s, openly took credit for the 1977 bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner.  According to Ricardo Alarcon, Pres. of Cuba’s National Assembly, declassified State Department documents implicate Bosch in the assassination of Orlando Lettelier.  Today, thanks to a presidential pardon from Geo. H. W. Bush, Bosch walks the streets of Miami, a free man, as does Bosch’s alleged co-conspirator, Jorge Posada Carrilles because George W. Bush refuses to honor a Venezuelan extradition request.  (I’ll provide the intriguing links between Geo. H. W. Bush and the Lettelier assassination in a later post).

Michael, Lane contends that neither Hoover nor the FBI were involved in the plot to assassinate Kennedy.  He contends the CIA set up Oswald precisely because Oswald was a paid FBI informant; that the CIA used this connection “to freeze J. Edgar Hoover into inaction because of fear that his bureau might be terminally embarrassed.” He asserts that the cover-up within the Warren Commission was not only facilitated by Allen Dulles; that the FBI’s man inside the Commission was Gerald Ford, who illegally passed on top secret information to Hoover’s assistant, Cartha DeLoach, noting that FBI assistance was needed to bring two dissenting Commission members to the FBI’s view that the shots that killed Kennedy had been fired from the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

“Plausible Denial” begins by covering a Sept. 1977 debate between Lane and the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips.  In the early segments of the book, Lane thoroughly debunked, as a CIA concocted myth which had been spoon fed to the Warren Commission, the claim that Lee Harvey Oswald had visited the Cuban and Soviet Embassies in Mexico City on Sept. 27 and Oct. 1, 1963.  “Plausible Denial” reveals the content of a secret CIA memo Lane obtained as a result of a lawsuit which directed the CIA’s media assets on how they should impugn the integrity of authors who dissented from the erroneous conclusions of the Warren Commission; Lane, in particular.

Phillips, as the CIA’s former head of intelligence for the Western Hemispher, had been involved in the agency’s attempt to malign Lane for “Rush to Judgment.” When confronted with the crimes of the agency, an ashen-faced Phillips pleaded for understanding of the difficulty in leading a dual life as a spy.  He regretted “the attempts to destroy Mr. Lane,” then contradicted statements he gave to the Warren Commission and sworn testimony he gave to the House Select Committee on Assassinations:  “Now, I am not in a position today to talk to you about the inner workings of the CIA station in Mexico City...; but I will tell you...there was never a photograph taken of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City...There is no evidence to show that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Soviet Embassy.”

104974. Well it could be CY. I’ll take your word for it. The information I received said otherwise. Son or brother it makes little difference. Prescott Bush hired him but you’re right, the Dulles’ seem to have invited the phrase “wealthy no good bastards” long before the Bush’s who basically married into their money. No good bastards reigns true for both families however.

104758 Wow! That’s all I can say Ernest. Actually I think I did hear of the book, Plausible Denial. I’ll have to check further into that.

I had always suspected the JFK assassination and later his brother Robert was government inspired. I had also heard Hoover knew and let it happened. With guys like Helms, Haldeman, E Howard Hunt who had a fatal plane crash etc, it isn’t hard to believe.

What about G. Gordon Liddy? He’s been entrenched in assassinations and other dirty tricks for most of his life. If he wasn’t involved, nobody was.

Michael Shaw, if you want to see where the Allen Dulles/Bush connections come full circle, read Mark Lane’s “Plausible Denial.”

Lane’s basic thesis is that the CIA killed Kennedy, who fired Dulles in the wake of the Bay of Pigs, planned to dismantle the CIA after the 1964 election, end our involvement in Vietnam and enter a rapproachment with Castro’s Cuba.  Lane’s theory was tested in a U.S. District Court where Lane defended a libel action brought against Victor Marchetti and Liberty Lobby, a small publisher which printed a Marchetti article that implicated E. Howard Hunt and a group of CIA-connected, anti-Castro Cubans in the assassination.  Lane’s evidence included the sworn testimony of Marita Lorenz, Castro’s ex-girlfriend who had been recruited into the CIA by Frank Sturgis. 

Lorenz testified she traveled with Sturgis and others by way of a two car caravan from Miami to Dallas.  One of the cars was loaded with weapons.  Shortly after arriving at a Dallas motel on Nov. 21, 1963, Hunt showed up and handed an envelope full of cash to Stugis.  He left after 45 minutes.  Within an hour, another individual arrived--Jack Ruby!

Lorenz, who had not been provided with the identity of the target of their operation, only knew the operation was “big.” She was to act as a decoy.  Having second thoughts, she persuaded Stugis to take her to the airport; flew back to Miami.

Hunt’s lawyer asked Lorenz whether she later spoke with Sturgis about the assassination.  She had.  He told her that she “missed the really big one,” adding, “we killed the president that day.  You could have been a part of it--you know, a part of history.  You should have stayed.  It was safe.  Everything was covered in advance.  No arrests, no real newspaper investigation.  It was all covered, very professional.”

A Miami jury returned a verdict for Liberty Lobby.  The jury foreperson’s explanation that they were convinced that the CIA killed Kennedy and that Hunt was a part of it was ignored by the corporate media.  Lane makes a persuasive case that the ensuing CIA cover-up of its involvement was facilitated when Allen Dulles was appointed to the Warren Commission by President Johnson. 

According to Joseph Trento, George H. W. Bush began “doing favors for the CIA” in 1956 after he had moved to Houston and established Zapata-Offshore. The CIA used Zapata-Offshore oil rigs as training areas in advance of the Bay of Pigs invasion.  While Trento suggests Bush’s role was peripheral, circumstantial evidence reflects otherwise.  The name given to the two naval vessesls obtained by Col Prouty for use in the Bay of Pigs invasion were the “Houston” and the “Barbara.” The top secret code name for the invasion was “Operation Zapata.” On 11/29/63 J. Edgar Hoover directed a memo to the State Department entitled, “Assassination of President John F. Kennedy November 22, 1963” which revealed that on Nov. 23, 1963 an FBI special agent and a DIA officer briefed “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency.” When the memo first publicly surfaced in 1988, then VP Bush claimed it was the wrong Bush.  He falsely denied any connection to the CIA prior to being appointed its director by President Ford.

In “The Ends of Power” H.R. Haldemann presents a curious connection between the Kennedy assassination and Watergate.  Seeking CIA protection, Nixon dispatched Haldeman to meet with Richard Helms.  When Helms stonewalled, Haldeman said, “the president asked me to tell you this entire affair may be connected to the Bay of Pigs....” Helms came unglued, gripping the arms of his chair and shouting there was no connection.  Haldemann observed, “It seems that in all those Nixon references to the Bay of Pigs he was referring to the Kennedy assassination.”

104680 nazilieskill I see the fact homeland security doesn’t even prioritize right wing extremist groups in its quest to quell home born terrorism as falling right in line with Bush and his Marshall Law edict. That and the Pentagon saying it is ready to take over. All it will take is one more big terrorist attack and we’re done.

104425 Speaking of which, check out this little tidbit!  Apparently Prescott Bush hired Dulles in order to conceal some of his Nazi related business practices.
http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/secret/rightroots /dulles.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/04/p/ 05_killing.html

104425 Ernest I also note that Alan Welsh Dulles was the son of John Foster Dulles. I’m beginning to wonder if they aren’t somehow related to the Bush clan. They sure act the same.

104465 Ernest I just viewed the article about the plot to topple Roosevelt. I am thankful for you pointing me to this.

As we know corporate fascism(unfettered capitalism) is very profitable for some. It comes as little surprise that bums like Prescott Bush and other stinking rich despots(Somehow I imagine Henry Ford was probably a co-sponsor)would support such an idea. After all, it was corporate bums just like him who propelled Mussolini and Hitler into power in the first place.

104443 Cy I agree with you. My grandmother was also Jewish (though not a holocaust survivor). I also see all intelligence agencies, regardless as to where they originate in the same light. I also know that many holocaust survivors are appalled by Israel’s treatments of the Palestinians, something I personally abhor.

Where I have problems is when people come out of the woodwork and present pseudo journalists like Piper and Bollyn and the Barnes Review, claiming Israel was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Now if some legitimate news source could provide a link to tangible evidence, then fine! Otherwise I’ll continue to have skepticism in believing something which comes from neo-Nazi, holocaust denying bigots.

104458 Cy I agree with you! It isn’t our government that is bad, it is those within the ranks of government where the real problems lie. The foundations and principles of our government are just fine, in fact I believe the best in the world. I see the real problems existing in the fact that politicians are great at getting elected and staying in office(where most of their focus lies), but when it comes to actual governance, they are even more clueless than we are. Either that or down right criminals.

104456 Thanks Ernest, I’ll look into it.

Here’s more on JohnFoster Dulles and the United Fruit Company for those who are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles

104647 Thank you CY for clarifying that. I knew he was entrenched in the Fruit Company scandals. Just got my nations crossed. Sounds to me that he was an all round SOB.

Ernest Canning...below is the link/URL that you posted about 3-4 months ago on a different forum where professor Stephen E. Jones was giving a scientific (physics) presentation on 9/11.

Is it true that professor Stephen E. Jones has lost his job at BYU?

I can’t remember if I read it on one the forum’s comments or saw it on a website.

===============================================
Comment #102661 by Cyrena on 9/25 at 11:24 pm

Cyrena...I don’t know if you had a chance to watch this video that was posted by Ernest Canning on another forum several weeks ago. THERMITE is discussed in detail by BYU physics professor, Steven E. Jones.

This video is about 2 hours long, but it is worth while to watch. It is a scientific informative presentation. If you haven’t seen it, you really need to watch it when you have some time to spare.
-------------------------------------------------

“BYU Physics professor and founder of SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH Steven E Jones presents his presentation on the collapse of WTC Buildings 1,2, ... all » and 7 on 9/11. A very informative and scientific presentation that raises serious questions about the official account of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586

Michael Shaw:  The article entitled “Bush’s Grandfather Linked to Fascist Plot” was posted on July 25, 2007 by Truthdig as an “Ear to the Ground” piece and links to a more extended BBC article.  It makes for a rather fascinating read.

104424 PS Ernest, I also agree with your Israeli/my way or the highway scenario too. In fact it does seem that the Bush administration mimes The right wing Sharon government in many ways. I by no means underestimate the MOSSAD either. But if you read the RICO complaint, Israel claimed it did in fact warn us but that brings us back to the CIA/MOSSAD question.

104424 Well I think Bush/Cheney knew it was going to happen and then let it happen to realize his PNAC(New Pearl Harbor) agenda. I see it as obvious that Tenant(CIA) was somehow involved in it too. I see all of them lying about it from Bush on down to Rice, Powell and every last one of them. That, “We had no reason to suspect they would use planes for bombs,” spew was precious. In fact almost laughable!

I have troubles with Bush actually planning the attack. But either way it is still an act in treason.

104425 Hey Ernest wasn’t Dulles also involved in the American Fruit Company debacle and war with Panama too? Didn’t his brother in fact own the FC and when Panama’s freely elected president wanted to buy unused land back from them for the value the FC company said it was worth for tax purposes(evasion), Dulles called them communist subversives and started that war? The Panamanians needed land to farm and the FC was ripping off Panama in land taxes for years. I know he also defended Nazi’s after the war. I also vaguely recall that in the 1960’s and after recruiting Nazi’s into the CIA, that’s when the torturing and killing began in West Germany and a witness, an American Intelligence officer who was appalled by this situation and told some folks what happened was later found dead just outside of his twenty story window in NYC. It was ruled a suicide of course!

As for the Prescott Bush conspiracy to overthrow Roosevelt, I’d like to get more information on that. We already know he was doing business with the Nazi’s in wartime and put out of business by the Trading with the Enemy Act. I wasn’t aware of this coup attempt. Sounds like reasonable grounds(among others) to have condemned him for treason.

This entire Bush Dynasty is like bad weather that never leaves us. With all their dirt and underhandedness, they keep slipping away from the arm of justice. I think much of that goes back to who rules and who really rules, otherwise the whole lot would be swinging from a flagpole!

re comment 104415 by Michael Shaw.  There is a sense in which the CIA may be seen as a stepchild of Nazi Germany.  As Joseph Trento noted in “Prelude to Terror,” its founder, Allen Dulles, had done business with the Nazis before WW II.  Dulles served in the OSS in Berne, Switzerland.  From 1945 to 1947, preceding the creation of the CIA, Dulles ran his own private and entirely illegal intelligence service in which he “began a massive ex-Nazi recruitment campaign, using a State Department refugee office as a front.” Trento suggests that Dulles saw this as a necessary means to counter the trheat of the KGB, then known as the NKVD.

Former Congresswoman Elizabeth Holzman (D.NY) has a very different view.  By “using Nazi war criminals, we may have exposed ourselves...because these people...had blood on their hands and were liable to blackmail by the Russians....And, secondly, these people had an agenda.  They wanted to keep their necks from being cut off.  And so, sometimes they would give us biased intelligence.” Amongst these Nazi recruits was Reinhardt Gehlen, Hitler’s former chief of intelligence on the eastern front, who, under the Americans, set up a West German spy network that employed at least one hundred Nazi war criminals.  “This apparatus was totally penetrated by the Russians.”

As revealed by Alfred McCoy in “A Question of Torture,” American intelligence recruitment was not limited to use of war criminals as spies.  It included German scientists “who had directed Nazi experiments into human physiology and psychology” and whose early research would lay the groundwork for CIA torture techniques.

Then there was Dulles’s recruitment of U.S. business leaders who had ties to the Nazi regime, including Prescott Bush, the president’s paternal grandfather, who recently was tied to an early 30s fascist plot to overthrow Roosevelt.  It took a bit longer than Prescott and his fellow plotters imagined, but it appears that his grandson has been able to move this nation dangerously close to his twisted dream of a fascist America.

#104419 by Michael Shaw on 10/03 at 12:00 pm: “...I think however that most Americans really had no idea of what we’ve been doing abroad. This makes it even harder for them to comprehend when it happens here.

Look at 9/11. Most people thought, “Why are they doing this to us? Meanwhile the same groups who have been exploiting people abroad are profiting the most from the war on terror....”

The difference with 9/11, though, was that it really wasn’t “they” who were “doing this to us”, Michael. “WE” (you know who) did it to “us”. Perhaps with a little outside help but it was basically an inside job.

That really confuses people because (a)as you say, they hardly have a clue what the US really gets up to internationally, but (b) there is this almost sub-conscious ‘gut-level’ feeling of “why” because there really is a question that needs to be asked.

Sadly, from there, people were wheeled around and told what to think and how to think. It was all directed and stage-managed for them. “Its us or them” (a real Israeli attitude to Arabs if you check) and an unreasoning “You’re either with us or against us!” hurt feeling outburst opportunistically layered into it all.

104412 Hi Douglas. Absolutely. I think however that most Americans really had no idea of what we’ve been doing abroad. This makes it even harder for them to comprehend when it happens here.

Look at 9/11. Most people thought, “Why are they doing this to us? Meanwhile the same groups who have been exploiting people abroad are profiting the most from the war on terror.

104297 John please refer to my post 104409 Also at least as far as recruiting Nazi’s to provide vital information about the Soviets, it is my understanding they really provided us with little. We put people like Klaus Barbie on the CIA payroll(who then began a world wide cocaine distribution program) and hid other Nazi’s from justice, but beyond that we gained very little important information.

I think you’re right of course as far as favoring extreme elements of the right as opposed to the left. The same could be said of Miami Cubans, some of whom were CIA sponsored terrorists who after committing severe acts in terror, like blowing up a passenger jet leaving Venezuela, today roam freely in our countryside. We ignore extradition papers from Venezuela or Cuba to apprehend and try these people. This indicates, just as in the neo nazi’s that in the war on terror we discriminate. If you’re a right winger doing our bidding you go free but it’s OK to terrorize nations who don’t play ball with us. Let’s not forget all the Iran-Contra’s or the members of Chilean death squads we brought back here either.

#104409 by Michael Shaw on 10/03 at 11:18 am: “...What shit we’ve done for decades overseas in places like Chile we are now doing here....”

As you think, so it becomes........

So many think that they are so clever that whatever they do will not come back to them - in some way.

“Action and reaction are opposite and equal” is thus proven to be the equivalent “do to others as you would have them do to you”.

Cast your mouldy bread upon the waters......

Conservative Yankee I apologize. The post I directed to John was meant to go to you! 104409

104312 Well John I see this clear and obvious omission on the part of homeland security concerning neo-nazi’s, as well as their aggressive assaults on minor, relatively harmless groups as another cog in the chaos strategy. They want these neo-nazi’s running around and creating havoc so they can justify and enhance the continual onslaughts on our civil liberties. The more chaos the better and the more fear the better. This keeps people worried and guessing and more importantly, less likely to question the actions of government in “keeping us safe!” The other side of the coin of course is in locking up relatively harmless people on the fringe left for life to stifle any ideas in activism or dissent. The same could be said of the assault by Oakland city police(thugs) who fired wooden bullets on a peaceful crowd during that dock worker’s strike 6 years ago. None of that was necessary but when you get shot in the ass with a wooden bullet you’ll think twice before you protest again. I see it just as Naomi Klein describes. What shit we’ve done for decades overseas in places like Chile we are now doing here.

What I also find interesting and disturbing are that elements of these same right wing groups are involved to a degree in the 9/11 truth movement and seem to be the ones who for the most part are presenting “evidence” that MOSSAD was responsible for 9/11. Now maybe to some degree they were. We know about those hi-fivers for example. But the problems I have with that are that most of the information pointing in this direction are being presented by guys like Piper or Bollyn and the Barnes Review, who are all neo-nazi’s and holocaust deniers. Also if you’ve ever seen the RICO/Rodriguez complaint which actually came from the 9/11 for truth movement, it stipulates that Israel did in fact warn us of 50-200 al Qaeda operatives in the US and of imminent attack, something the CIA denies. So at least in this case it seems to boil down to whom should you believe, the CIA(and the neo-naz’s) or MOSSAD.  What it really boils down to, at least as far as I see it is whose ass should be left blowing in the wind, Bush’s or Israel’s? The fact Bush is doing next to nothing to quell these neo-nazi’s groups might in fact point to the answer.

104107 John one thing I find disturbing is that in a recent report it showed that the department of homeland security placed animal activist groups on the top of their domestic terror agenda, leaving out every right wing racist, neo Nazi group in the nation. Not one of those made the list in their priorities, even though animal activist groups have cause no human fatalities and since the Oklahoma City bombing, more than 60 acts in attempted right wing terror have taken place since then.

100078 Absolutely Ernest. It typifies the definition of this administration. Only they would hire a convicted felon to oversea such an operation. As I recall, Hitler also placed felons in positions of power. Orwellian indeed! Thanks for refreshing my memory! Also I’m sorry for the late response. I’ve been wasting my time in Fisk’s loony magnet, questioning 9/11.

100014 And Scott, apologies to you also. It sounds like you have a propensity to open source government. I did a bit of reporting on that(before Assignment Zero pulled my story). Was once interviewed about it too by Christian Einfeldt from the Digital Tipping Point, a free open source video archive. Have you ever heard of Silona Bonewald and the League of Technical Voters? Or Dan Zarrella and his Open Source Political Party?

IE “As to playing games, only a child could miss the games played by EVERYONE on this board.  games of intellectual prowess, but games none the less.”

Hey Ernest and CY, I wouldn’t call it intellectual prowess, but if you guys wish to see some game play, take a gander at the idiots in “Questioning 9/11 with Caution”. These folks believe the “truth police” are spying on them and deleting their posts, that Inherit the Wind and I are agents of the MOSSAD, that mind bombs brought down tower 7 and that “The Barnes Review,” is a balanced, unbiased news source! If it wasn’t for Inherit, I would have lost my sanity!

If you want to play these games, CY, best try to find another, less educated paper.  Instead of an intellectual discourse on the ramifications of your personal rejection of res publica, you engaged in an ad hominem attack, suggesting that my level of writing would not even meet the rudimentary standards of a college course.  You suggest that I know little about you, yet you make rather startling assumptions that show you know “nothing” about me.  I received a BA in political science (cum laude) at UCLA, an MA in political science (4.0 gpa) and a JD (4th in a class of 277).  While you were acquiring your “conservatism” from the cutting floors of textile mills, I was receiving my first-hand education in the impact of U.S. imperialism in the Central Highlands of Vietnam.

Hmmm.  CY attended college.  How impressive!