89654 No Skruff what I meant was you didn’t understand the point I was making that in fact the anti-immigration movement is nothing more than a facade and a distraction. I’m not trying to imply I’m smarter or know more than you do. What I am implying is that most people don’t realize who is behind this movement. There was I time I didn’t realize it either until someone pointed it out to me.

We are being manipulated by a system that will never solve the immigration problem because corporations benefit too much from it. Yet they are devoting a whole lot of time and effort to blame all of our problems on illegal immigrants. Why? Because they want the nation to focus on this. Meanwhile liberty is gone, the nation is in trillions of insurmountable debt, 9 million children have no health care, we are waring illegally giving hundreds of billions of our dollars to defense contractors and energy corporations, the government is spying on us etc etc etc.

As for your not trusting me or my not trusting you, read Maurice’s post. You my friend are not the enemy nor am I yours.

Sean Maurice Hunt that reminds me of what the Rothschild’s of London once said about their international banking system.

“The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages...will bear its burden without complaint, and perhaps without suspecting that the system is inimical to their best interests.”
- Rothschild Brothers’ of London communiqué to associates in New York June 25, 1863

89487 Well Skruff I appreciate the apology and it wasn’t necessary but frankly the information I provided about who began this ant-immigration movement is pretty cut and dry. John Tanton in fact is responsible for 99.9% of it and along with several republican cohorts have been trying to legitimize this hate group by making themselves look like a grass roots movement. In fact they even told their Neo-Nazi cohorts to keep a low public profile to enable this deception. The Scaife Family(Mellon Bank) are one of it’s biggest supporters.

As for the 14 points being dated that’s because they were done years ago not last week. The 14 points themselves were established by several historians and intellectuals who studied every fascist nation on earth from Hitler’s Germany and Mussolini’s Italy to Peru and Paraguay, Pappa Doc, baby doc etc etc. Of every fascist regime, the 14 points were what they all had in common. Especially a centralized national police force that usurps the power of local governments and controls every police department in this nation. Aka The Department of Homeland Security.

89524 That was the point I was trying to make to Skruff Ernest. Public opinion is being shaped for the masses, we are all being deceived. I still don’t think he gets it.

Absolutely Ernest. When people are depicted as beasts and animals what else can you call it?

I was listening to democracy now today and they were talking about Puerto Rico. Today is the 109th anniversary of the US invasion. Puerto Rico is called a US Commonwealth, but as noted perhaps commonwealth isn’t a very accurate description since the wealth all went to special interests while the common live in perpetual squalor. Also many Americans either don’t know or even acknowledge that Puerto Ricans are US citizens even though half it’s population lives in the United States.

We need to take a good hard look at ourselves as a society because frankly we are not better than anyone else whether we think we are or not. We are all human beings, perfect in God’s imagine and the sooner we get with that program the better.

Michael Shaw, I think you can see elements of neo-Nazi racism and those elements with which Emma Goldman so eloquently found fault in the current anti-immigrant bashing, especially Ms. Goldman’s observation that “those who have had the fortune to be born in one spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting another spot.”

On April 9, 1944, while this nation was locked in a life and death struggle with fascism in Europe, the New York Times published a description of “the American fascist” provided by Vice President Henry Wallace.

“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence.  His method is to poison the channels of public information.  With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public....

“They claim to be superpatriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution.  They demand free enterprise but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest.  Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjugation.”

But for the date of publication, I would have thought Vice President Wallace’s prescient observations were intended to describe the Bush administration and 21st Century American hard-right pundits like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and, of course, Ann Coulter aka “America’s Eva Braun.”

#89342 by Skruff on 7/25 at 4:52 am
when you begin labeling everyone who disagrees with your POV facist, you begin to sound like the Bush administration.

Read George Lakoff’s book:
Don’t Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate: The Essential Guide for Progressives

Conservatives have gained power through a concerted strategy of labelling and linguistic framing. Liberals in America need to focus our attention on finding effective labels, slogans and effective linguistic frames that describe what it is about our conservative opponents that we feel is wrong. “Facist” may be a bit strong but in Bush’s case it’s not far off the mark. And remember progressives, labels always stretch the truth. A good example is the very effective right wing label “bleeding heart liberal,” which has successfully framed the notion of compassion as something subversive and weak.
How about calling conservatives “heartless conservatives” (seriously). It fits in the frame of the poor not deserving welfare, women being jailed for having abortions, the working poor not deserving a fair wage, the idea that one individual having 1000’s of times more wealth than another is just, and the killing of tens of thousands of innocent women and children Iraqis by our military as acceptable as long as it furthers American interests. I consider all of these things to be heartless notions, and a conservative who espouses and advocates them should rightly be labeled a “heartless conservative.”
They’ve even commandeered the very definition of the word freedom (another good Lakoff book “Whose Freedom?"). To conservatives freedom is all about power and guns and war and wealth. To liberals freedom is about equality and opportunity and tolerance and fairness. Don’t let conservative howls of “unfair play” faze you when formulating labels that accurately describe their political positions. They’ve successfully used framing to stifle progressive voices and undermine ideals fundamental to this nation, and have succeeded in creating a neo-oligarchy. Ours has undeniably become a society of sound bites and slogans. We have to take our struggle into this arena and fight fire with fire.

Here is a blow by blow comparison to Bush and the 14 points of fascism.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Hey Skruff you should read this:

The Bush Hitler Thing
t r u t h o u t | Reader Submission

Friday 09 January 2004

Dear Sir,

My family was one of Hitler’s victims...........

.......... I can only hope that in the coming year there will be some sign - some hint - that we are not becoming that which we abhor. The Theory of the Grotesque fares all too well these days. It may not be Nazi Germany - it might be a lot worse.

SL | Wisconsin

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3201

89324 PS Skruff, I never said everybody. You’re putting words in my mouth.

89397 Thanks for bringing up Emma Goldman Ernest. She’s One of my personal heroes. I believe H.L. Meinken produced a similar analogy. Personally, I see nothing wrong in the act of patriotism. I do see a clear line however where patriotism becomes more like feasting on a slaughtered animal than showing pride for one’s country.

89342 Yes Skruff patriotic songs in themselves are not fascist and that’s not what I’m trying to say. You misunderstand. It is how they are used in correlation with the other points. Only together do they spell fascism. Also it’s the ritual in their use. We all know every country has it’s own brand of patriotic songs,emblems and flags whether they are fascist or not. But when these relatively nonchalant entities suddenly become mass rallies and are subjected by rhetorical propaganda accompanied by media frenzy they become something else. Also when these symbols are brought forth like flag pins on lapels to show patriotism while the constitution is being trampled on clearly you have fascism. No single point of the 14 points of fascism makes a country fascist. They all do. Clearly the parallel between the 14 points and the Bush administration is uncanny and perhaps even inarguable.

“What, then, is patriotism?  ‘Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels,’ said Dr. [Samuel] Johnson.  Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses....

“Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism...Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate.  Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot.  It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others.
....
“We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people.  We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence.  Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting...bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens....[O]ur hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that it will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations.

“Such is the logic of patriotism.”

Excerpts from a speech by Emma Goldman delivered in San Francisco in 1908.

Here’s one more Skruff from the Southern Poverty Law Center. It’s about John Tanton the guy responsible for the entire anti-immigration movement.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp ?aid=93

89071 Mr. Chalmer’s IE The house of Saud....I agree. apparently so does Mr. Ritter.

Skruff

As for Woody Guthrie you’ve completely lost me. What does singing about unions and the plight of workers got to do with fascism? That song was in fact a direct response to God Bless America, a song Woody considered phony.

Here are some verses we don’t often associate to the song:

In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office, I’d seen my people.
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me?
As I went walking, I saw a sign there;
And on the sign there, it said, ‘No Trespassing.’
But on the other side; it didn’t say nothing!
That side was made for you and me

Here’s more:

Americas Special Report

Immigration Debate: Politics, Ideologies of Anti-Immigration Forces

By Tom Barry | June 17, 2005

Americas Program, International Relations Center (IRC)

http://americas.irc-online.org/reports/2005/0506ideolo gies_body.html

Check this out Skruff

This is an interesting read from PublicEye.org

Groups Promoting Oppression or Right-Wing Agendas

http://www.publiceye.org/research/directories/dem_grp_ undermine.html

PS Skruff I am not Adolf either and although I agree with you illegal immigration must be addressed, my main point was that this anti-immigration movement was created in the first place by fascists and bigots and is being financed by the same corporations who helped create the immigration problem in the first place. If you look at Scott Ritter’s Calling out idiot America, this is yet another example of it. Focus the debate on the illegals and blame them for all our problems. Meanwhile the ripoff continues.

I’m not calling people opposed to illegal immigration Nazi’s. I’m saying they are being cheered on by these groups that were created by neo-nazies and bigots and the government is using this entire issue to take the focus off of them and place it on the immigrants.

89182

“When the Arizona Republic published a 1986 WITAN memo shortly before the 1988 general elections, the memo’s anti-Latino, white supremacist, and anti-Catholic language lent credence to the charges that the official English and immigration restrictionist movements were led by bigots.”
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1533

Further comment comes from the Southern Poverty Law Office:
“Despite attempts to appear otherwise, it [NumbersUSA] is a wholly owned subsidiary of U.S. Inc., a sprawling, nonprofit funding conduit that has spawned three anti-immigration groups and underwrites several others, many of which were represented at the NumbersUSA conclave.”
Two weeks after the NumbersUSA lobbying trip to the offices of Tom Tancredo and a series of other congressmen, Glenn Spencer http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp ?pid=978, head of the Tanton-funded anti-immigrant American Patrol, was one of the main speakers at a conference hosted by Jared Taylor of American Renaissance magazine. Joining Spencer, who warned his audience that a second Mexican-American war would erupt in 2003, was an array of key extremists:

Mark Weber, a principal of the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review; http://www.adl.org/holocaust/weber.asp
White power web maven, former Klansman and ex-con Don Black; http://www.stormfront.org/dblack/
Gordon Lee Baum, “chief executive officer” of the CCC; http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Gordon_Lee_Baum
and several members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/N_Alliance.asp

The fact they(English First) are funded by the Scaife Family(Mellon Bank) lends even more credence that their agenda reaches far beyond English as a primary language or workers rights. It is certainly food for thought and deserves further investigation. I’d like to add nearly all of the 300,000 ATM machines in the US are multi-lingual, including those of the Mellon Bank. There are also strong ties in all of this to the Council for National Policy.
Below are some of their members and supporters:
American Legislative Exchange Council, (ALEC): Established in 1973 by Paul Weyrich of the Free Congress Foundation’s Coalition for Constitutional Liberties, among others, ALEC’s purpose is to reach out to state office holders. In the words of ALEC’s former executive director, Sam Brunelli:

“ALEC’s goal is to ensure that these state legislators are so well informed, so well armed, that they can set the terms of the public policy debate, that they can change the agenda, that they can lead.”

ALEC has the financial support of more than 200 corporations including Coors now Castle Rock Foundation, Scaife’s Family and Allegheny Foundation, Amway, IBM, Ford, Philip Morris, Exxon, Texaco and Shell Oil. William Bennett, [CNP’s] Jack Kemp, [CNP’s] John H. Sununu, and George Bush have all addressed ALEC sessions in recent years

88639 Well Skruff since our population is growing anyway and since there has been a huge constant influx of people moving from all over the country(and the rest of the world) to California and elsewhere, I’ll admit illegal immigrants aren’t helping the matter but by overall comparison the affect is scant. We haven’t even begun to mention our own exploitations of Mexico either or the fact we support the 5 families there who own everything and address no social problems there but solve them by sending their people here. We’re not even addressing the fact why they’re here in the first place though Chavez as you pointed out knew. US Corporations bought them here and Reagan’s amnesty only enhanced the problem. But it is no problem for corporations who pay poverty level salaries without benefits and allow the tax payer to take up the slack for everything else including, food, clothing, shelter and health care.

The irony in all of this is that the very corporations who gave us the illegal immigration problem are the very ones backing the racists and Nazi’s who created the anti-immigration movement. This lends to Chomsky’s theory about limiting the field of debate. For that reason I consider it to be a method in distraction clearly meant to serve and cover the nefarious activities of this current administration.

No small wonder the American Legislative Exchange Council(ALEC) plays such a major role since their goal is to “set the terms of the public policy debate,” so they can “change the agenda.”

The government who generally tell us nothing are going out of their way in shaping public opinion over this matter. It is dubious, an act in mis-direction and above all else, racist. Meanwhile corporate fascism continues unscathed while we war for oil and lose our liberty. Clearly what is going on here comes directly from the 14 points of fascism.

http://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

#88781 by Lewis on 7/22 at 11:35 pm: “...The real problem in the middle east is now and always has been the royal house of Saudi Arabia which is the ultimate source for all the anti-west fervor....”

Perhaps not totally, Lewis but they are another elite regime. Check up on their involvement in massive drug shipments from S.America via private jets and under cover of diplomatic immunity and you can guess they have all the support from the CIA that they need. Syriana, crap ....its more like another Contra-Gate!!!!

88520 Interesting stuff in here Douglas. Makes one wonder what is truly going on. It seems to me the western media has certainly stretched the truth and frankly anyone dumb enough to enter an Islamic war zone should realize the risks. That said, I am no fan of the Taliban, an entity (as you know) we in fact created. Had Bush not wasted our time in Iraq we might have been able to capture bin Laden and stabilize the region. Instead it seems the plan is to destabilize a far more vast region by hitting Iran. Won’t a move like this in fact strengthen the Taliban?

One thing this brings to mind is the constant chatter from the neocons calling this so called war on terror a world war 3. The reality as I see it is Bush and Cheney are trying to make it into a WW3. I’d call that sheer madness! I can only hope at this point there is some semblance of sanity left in government to stop them.

As for the black shirts of LA! Ditto! Also interesting that the very neo-Nazi’s who are supporting anti-immigration groups have themselves multiplied 10 fold in the last 6 year, unscathed by any reports by the major media. But we’re all (ala Lou Dobbs) focused on the immigrants now aren’t we!?! As Noam Chomsky said, “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.”

I appreciate your comments Mr. Chalmers.

#88510 by Michael Shaw on 7/21 at 12:34 pm: “...Hey Douglas since you’ve brought up racism I thought it would be a good idea to also take a look at the anti-immigration movement. My guess is that many do not realize it is led and supported by bigots and neo nazi’s....”

Couldn’t help but wonder about those black-shirted LAPD stormtroopers od Arnie’s beating up on everbody in MacArthur Park not long back. Everyone from the bystanders to the TV media got a belting ....just for practice. Nothing was happening until they arrived....!

By the way, gettting back to Scott Ritter territory, though - another kind of racism:-

Taliban claims German hostages killed, S.Koreans could be next - KANDAHAR, Afghanistan: “A spokesman for Afghanistan’s Taliban claimed Saturday the militants had killed two Germans and five Afghan hostages and threatened that 23 South Korean captives could meet the same fate.....” http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific /view/289639/1/.html and hostage in pic 2.

88492 Hey Douglas since you’ve brought up racism I thought it would be a good idea to also take a look at the anti-immigration movement. My guess is that many do not realize it is led and supported by bigots and neo nazi’s.

“When the Arizona Republic published a 1986 WITAN memo shortly before the 1988 general elections, the memo’s anti-Latino, white supremacist, and anti-Catholic language lent credence to the charges that the official English and immigration restrictionist movements were led by bigots.”
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1533

Further comment comes from the Southern Poverty Law Office:
“Despite attempts to appear otherwise, it [NumbersUSA] is a wholly owned subsidiary of U.S. Inc., a sprawling, nonprofit funding conduit that has spawned three anti-immigration groups and underwrites several others, many of which were represented at the NumbersUSA conclave.”
Two weeks after the NumbersUSA lobbying trip to the offices of Tom Tancredo and a series of other congressmen, Glenn Spencer http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp ?pid=978, head of the Tanton-funded anti-immigrant American Patrol, was one of the main speakers at a conference hosted by Jared Taylor of American Renaissance magazine. Joining Spencer, who warned his audience that a second Mexican-American war would erupt in 2003, was an array of key extremists:

Mark Weber, a principal of the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review; http://www.adl.org/holocaust/weber.asp
White power web maven, former Klansman and ex-con Don Black; http://www.stormfront.org/dblack/
Gordon Lee Baum, “chief executive officer” of the CCC; http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Gordon_Lee_Baum
and several members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/N_Alliance.asp

#87188 by Bukko in Australia on 7/16 at 2:56 am: “...I didn’t know of any rule on TruthDig about resident reviewers. I hope I’m not considered one. I’m just a country-abandoning loudmouth....And whilst I’m at it Skruffo, I liked that anecdote on the Stan Goff thread about your mom sticking it up the anti-Semitic friend with the sensitive nose....!”

That’s about 95 comments too many from our Aussie friend. I read somewhere that they have an iodine deficiency over there which affects their brains..... I wonder what is in the water in some states in the USA, though???

Sounds like everyone but a Muslim or someone pursuing a Ph. D. or D. D. in Islamic studies would fail this test.  Not only are contemporary Muslims left to interpret recorded historical events of their past—which are invariably theologically driven—but so are the rest of us. 

What are we to understand of Islam since Muhammad’s calling by Allah to be His chief prophet?  Is it the more or less constant in-fighting over lines of succession that led to and sustained the formation of Sunni, Shi’ite, Wahhabi, and other Islamic sects?  It would appear that every new introduction of Islamic interpretation has been brought about by some war—jihad or not.

Meanwhile...back in the land of the Crawford Ranch...let’s say I’m some idiot American and somebody in a position of authority waves an American flag in my face.  Amazing that ritual still works at all—but there your are.  If front of Old Glory feel free to get all misty-eyed and superior feeling.  Add to that the fact that the news I get is heavily censored.  Worst, this media coverage is often framed around the sacrifices already made in Iraq and Afghanistan as a casus belli to continue the war.  I.E., so that those American who’ve died so far will be avenged so that these heroes “shall not have not died in vain.”

Cable news also finds just enough time between reporting on the financial markets to bring us the words of Bush and Cheney—both still clinging to the hope that the sheer force of repetition of their outrageous lies will somehow make them true—rather than impeachable.

Meanwhile, the Democrats have already backed off impeachment of these two war criminals so as not to give some appointed Republican replacement(s) a springboard for the ‘ 08 elections.  After all, he’d be an “incumbent.” This decision also effectively suppresses the Jackasses from voting more aggressively for a withdrawl timetable for Iraq.  Doing so could bring about the worst constitutional crisis in US history.  I.E., Bush—in issuing another “signing statement” to set aside any timetable legislation—should compel Congress to take impeachment measures.  Either that, or Congress would or continue to be the cheese puff, canday-ass deliberative body we know them to be. 

What bothers me the most is that some status quo has been bargained by the Dem leadership with Bush and Cheney and this includes continuing the war and no impeachment bills in the House.  Makes you wonder what the Dems got in return—if anything.

But I sure liked the start of Ritter’s article.  Intellectual debate on Iraq is already dead in the water, and your average Congressman or woman know little more other that to raise money for the next election.  Knowing that, the real demonstration of American idiocy is in not demanding an honest media that truly teaches the ignorant—historically challenged individuals that only a dishonest media can create.

Some people give up too easy. I didn’t know of any rule on TruthDig about resident reviewers. I hope I’m not considered one. I’m just a country-abandoning loudmouth.

And whilst I’m at it Skruffo, I liked that anecdote on the Stan Goff thread about your mom sticking it up the anti-Semitic friend with the sensitive nose. Schwing!