Jail Bush:

Thank you for that link.  Powerful stuff.

However, I want to offer a “devil’s advocate” position, one that I obviously do NOT hold, but one which is likely to arise in discussion with others - and has already arisen in a discussion I have had.

When I sent a skeptic to the link, they watched it, and their response was: “Okay, perhaps there WERE explosives in the buildings.  But how do you know the terrorists did not put them there?  After all, they did it once already in 1993.”

He was not referring to CD charges, of course (i.e., the squibs and “pop-pop-pop” referred to by the firemen).  He was referring only to the secondary explosions in the sublevels of the towers.  But he “makes a good point” as far as the skeptics are concerned.

I have not yet figured out how to counter this, but I am working on it.  (LOL)

Peace.

NEW COMPILATION OF 911 T.V. COVERAGE ON 911.  ANOTHER STELLAR PIECE OF THE PUZZLE—Doubters, watch this, then try to overcome your belief system and denial and own that this was a covert operation, just like Katrina.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/91.html

“We wonder why the main media does not want to report on alternative causes of 911 ” Hummmmmm!
Let me tell you peed-ons why—-because they know what group of untouchable people wanted and planned it. Still it does not fully explain it. Now!... try this hint—-same religious frat boys control all the media and government. Still don’t get whom ? Try researching the USS Liberty bombing and the King David Bombing and you’d be surprized. Question—why don"t any demo company come out and spill the beans? Cause they depend on government approval on all demo contracts !Another problem is that they are also from the same frat rat club.
Get over it—do something about it—scream it out at all candidates meetings—No arab did 911 and you guys know it. If they ask you who did it—tell"um—-same guys who did USS Liberty Bombing.  P.S they know who did it .

All:

An interesting article re Khalid Mohammed:

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0316-22.htm

Peace.

O’Donnell Out Of The Closet… As A 9/11 Truther
Talk show host lays out WTC 7 facts in blog
Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Friday, March 16, 2007

good stuff….  nice posts.  for those that buy the pancake theory—fine.  it is of course true as it has been proven on t.v. through animation.  it’s easy to prove things through animation.  regarding sheikh whatever his name is, who knows if he confessed anything at all—look at the source.  also the most obvious give away that this confession is ridiculous is that he “confessed” to all those crimes, even the perle beheading which we know to have been another cia psy-op as the background has been identified to be abu graib.  but the most obvious and predictable give away is the timing.  everytime the heat is on—spelled GONZALES/BUSH, they try to distract with something like this.  the timing is impeccible.  if these revelations were put on a graph, the graph would like the beats of a very healthy heart.

Jackie:

Great stuff!  Thanks.

Shepherd:

Well, setting aside WTC 7 (although it is truly the “linchpin” in the CD theory), there are actually quite a few aspects of the collapses of the twin towers that point to CDs.

First, you (like the 9/11 Commission) simply ignore the 47-column solid steel central core of the buildings, to which the floors were attached, as well as the steel lattice structures that held up each floor.  Even if you are correct that it was simply the damage by the planes and the ensuing fires that caused the collapses, there is still no explanation vis-a-vis physics for why the collapsing floors would not have met with at least token resistance from the superstructure and from the lower, undamaged floors, thus slowing down the rate of collapse.  Yet both towers collapsed at “free-fall speed,” meaning that there was ZERO resistance.

Second, as we have discussed ad nauseam here, fires could not have melted the steel.  Steel melts at 2900 F.  Diesel jet fuel - at its hottest - burns at 1800 F.  Thus, again, physics does not allow for the fires to have melted the steel.  Indeed, as we saw that day, the fires themselves went from white to gray to black - denoting fuel-STARVED fires - in less than an hour.

Third, a “pancake” collapse would have sent debris in all directions, and left large - huge - chunks of concrete all over the place.  Yet at least 85% of the concrete in the twin towers was pulverized BEFORE IT HIT THE GROUND.  The only thing that could have caused this was thermite charges (i.e., CD).

Finally, as noted, the towers collapsed at free fall speed, largely into their own footprints. This is not something that could have happened from a simple “pancake” collapse.  Indeed, had the floors collapsed as you suggest, even the minimal resistance of the lower floors would have created a “stutter” effect as it collapsed, increasing the time for the total collapse.  Yet this is not what occurred.

As noted, I have not even gone into WTC 7, which was without question a controlled demolition (which I am happy to go into if you wish).

You might want to do a little more research than simply relying one person’s comment about the construction of the buildings.

Peace.

It’s the cover ups.  If they ever reveal, it is only to conceal.

Breaking News!!!

Khalid Mohammed, the terrorist who claims to have masterminded the 9/11 attacks, as well as almost every major terrorist action in the past decade - including personally beheading reporter Daniel Pearl - has admitted to assassinating JFK, killing JonBenet Ramsey, and holding up a liquor store in Gary, Indiana.

News at 11…

Talk to your friends and enemies.  Put signs in your car and house windows.  (Do you think you will still need them in a death camp?)  Speaking Truth to Power Means Agitation - Not Supplication!

The late architect Harry Seidler on visiting the WTC during its construction expressed genuine surprise at the simplicity of the design concerning how the floors were attached to the central and outer columns of the structure; basically the floors were simply “hung” using steel girders beneath, with the floor then laid atop it. 

Then these fuel-laden hijacked planes are crashed into the upper floors of the two towers causing an instant blazing exploding inferno, the heat such that the girders began to warp; one finally gave way while all the while the inferno was spreading and engulfing further parts of the building.  The weight of one floor crashing onto the one below then caused the hung girders below it to also come under such stress that it had to give way and so as we saw (due to the accumulating weight of floor collapsing upon floor) the result being the tragic pancake effect that Seidler I think was ominously alluding could one day happen.  (There was even at one stage, well before 9/11, some controversy about corrosion weakening structural parts of the towers due to poor insulation of the girders from the very beginning.  Anyone see the program?)  So where exactly does this fanciful imho “controlled demolitions” argument come into it? 

The most compelling argument that government agencies were complicit in the 9/11 attacks comes from the ex-Boston air traffic controller Robin Hordon far as I can see.  Has 60 Minutes or Frontline interviewed him yet?

“A confession” from Gitmo is about as relivant as one from Dachau. 

Oh BTW I killed Kennedy, Shot Wallace, and Lennon, and started the great chicago fire.

RE: Comment #58770 by Maani  on  3/15  at  7:32 am
To My Fellow Alternative Theorists:
What to make of the front page news that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed has confessed to masterminding the 9/11 attacks in ALL respects?

>>> why torture the point

there exists beyond all reasonable doubt substantial proof that al Queda was and probably still is a CIA/MI-6/Mossad asset - leaving anything reported about al Queda from any of these agencies questionable at best - no details are issued about such “confessions” for reasons of “security” we’re told - BS, any truthful details would incriminate the spooks even further

bottom line: The 911 coup is an open secret in DC, where they’re now scrambling to rein in the madmen before they start WWIII, without blowing the coverup, triggering the biggest constitutional crisis since the Civil War and precipitating a global financial meltdown, all of which is unavoidable anyway. So they’ll keep calling us wackos, keep deluding the public and fighting to keep hold of their own fantasy vision of the future.

To My Fellow Alternative Theorists:

What to make of the front page news that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed has confessed to masterminding the 9/11 attacks in ALL respects?

There are quite a number of possible reasons for and responses to this.

First, despite his contention that “his statements at the tribunal…were not made under duress or pressure,” he (and/or his family or other loved ones) may well have been threatened.  That is, he may simply be lying about the “duress or pressure.”

Second, enough torture can break anyone, including a hardened terrorist.  Thus, it may be that the CIA was finally able to break him, and his confession is equal parts truth and fiction - but just enough truth to bamboozle the public.

Third, just as mob bosses often took (and take) credit for murders, thefts, etc. that they had no part of simply to seem more powerful, Khalid may well be claiming responsibility for actions that he either had no part of, or was a part of but did not “mastermind.”

Fourth, keep in mind where this revelation is coming from: the U.S. goverment, military and intelligence apparatuses, and the spineless, complicit corporate media.  This government has lied before (No!  Say it aint so!  LOL), and continues to lie about almost everything.  So why should we believe THIS?

Finally, and perhaps most cogently, even most alternative theorists agree that Arab terrorists were INVOLVED in the 9/11 attacks.  Some believe those terrorists were either “used” in some way (threats and/or promises made, money paid, etc.) or were connected to the CIA or other U.S.-related agency.  In this regard, even if Khalid was involved in the planning of 9/11 - and even if he was high up on the planning chain with OBL - this IN NO WAY negates the probability of complicity by high-level political and military personnel in the U.S.  Indeed, the controlled demolitions of WTC 7 and the twin towers are all the proof that is needed to implicate U.S.-based complicity.

So when those who are not very knowledgeable - or are outright hostile - about alternative theories of 9/11 bring up this revelation about Khalid, stay calm and use the above points to counter them.

Peace.

We all know that the mainstream media has largely refused to touch alternative theories of 9/11.  There are many reasons for this, some obvious (cowardice), some not (backlash).

Although The New York Times has worn kid gloves re 9/11 truth, there is a VERY interesting juxtaposition of articles that may represent a “coded” message for the truth movement.

In the Wednesday, March 14, 2007 issue of The Times, on page A16, there are two articles.

On the left hand side of the page is an article on the controlled demolition of the Stadust Hotel in Las Vegas.  It is accompanied by two photos, one prior to the CD, and one just as it is occurring.  Note that the Stardust has a remarkably similar outline to WTC 7.

On the right side of the page - directly next to the photo of the collapsing Stardust - is an article on the passage by Congress of some of the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission.

I realize that this may simply be coincidence.  However, the Times chooses where each article in each section will appear.  They could easily have put the articles on different parts of the page, or even different pages.  Yet they chose to put them next to each other.

Is there a message here for the 9/11 truth movement?  Is the Times trying to tell us something?

Curious minds want to know…

Peace.

It is time to simply accuse the vicious crooks who think they run this country.  I always refer to them as crooks and traitors and I speak matter of factly about their planning an execution of 911.  It is weak to call for investigations, etc.  We must say what these people are.  Otherwise their gouging and chiseling and murdering will go on forever.

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  2008 State of The Union Address Preview Shocker

  ....Divine, eternal justice has found in us, as judges and your retainers, its brilliant reflection on earth. Subject only to the laws of immortal equity, unknown to culpable compassion, indifferent to cursing and entreating prayers, obeying the voice of our conscience alone—-we illumed this earth with the light of human wisdom and sublime, sacred truth. Not for a single moment forgetting that justice is the foundation of life, we have crucified the Christ in days gone by, and since, to this very day, we cease not to grace Golgotha with new crosses. But, certainly, only ruffians, only ruffians are hanged. We showed no mercy to God himself, in the name of the laws of immortal justice—-would we be now disconcerted by the howling of this impotent, starving rabble, by their cursing and raging? Let them curse! Life herself blesses us, the great sacred truth will screen us with her veil, and the very decree of history will not be more just than our own. What have they gained by cursing? What? They are there, we’re here. They are in dungeons, in galleys, on crosses, but we will go to the theater. They perish, but we will devour them—devour—devour….

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/goldman/socsig/kinghunger.html

=====

Rabbi Lerner Agnostic on 9/11 Inside Job

Source: tikkun.org
Michael Lerner 3/1/2007

One could argue that there is room for both conversations, and there is. In fact, the kind of psychic trauma that would happen were the charges of intentional involvement in 9/11 by the president, vice president, other high office holders, or our security apparatus ever proved in a court of law would almost certainly open up political space for a serious discussion of the kinds of radical changes I’m suggesting, especially regarding our approach to foreign policy and homeland security. Indeed, people might be open to establishing much more forceful checks and balances on the imperial presidency, reaffirming and even strengthening civil liberties protections that have been undermined by the Patriot Act and other policies of the Bush administration, securing democratic forms by eliminating the electoral college and establishing instant-runoff voting and fully, publicly financed elections that forbid any direct or indirect contributions or support for campaigns or the parties that run them, establishing firm public control of electronic voting and strict public control over lobbying to ensure that money plays no role directly or indirectly in the process, and other measures to reclaim the democracy that has eroded since 9/11.

These are important changes that could be won if 9/11 lies are exposed, if in fact they were lies (about which I am agnostic).

Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun Magazine. He can be reached at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) .

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          Editor: Myra M. Jackson

RE: “... If a conservative smears you, the best way to deal with the problem is to forget the choir boy stuff and reach for a baseball bat.”

>>> Absolutely!

We have no more use for the sort of Liberals who leave the room when a fight breaks out. And, as the Chicken Hawks:

Pat Buchanan, MSNBC commentator
No military service.

Ann Coulter, writer & commentator
No military service.

Lou Dobbs, CNN News anchor
No military service.

Paul Gigot, Wall Street Journal editor
No military service.

Sean Hannity, Hannity & Colmes host
No military service.

Brit Hume, Fox News anchor
No military service.

Rush Limbaugh, Radio talk show host
No military service.

Bill O’Reilly, O’Reilly Factor host
No military service.

Michael Savage, Radio talk show host
No military service.

George Will, Washington Post columnist
No military service.

To one and friggin’ all:  Bring it on! Any time! Any place! Mano a mano, boys, mano a friggin’ mano! What’s there to loose? They’re ridin’ shot gun for the strangeloves steering us all into thermal nuclear war.

Only one way out: round up the 911 Criminals — the charge:
Misprisions of Treason — investigate, indicte, prosecute and execute! 

Here is a letter to the editor that I wrote for a Wyoming newspaper:

Queen Victoria hated “enthusiasm” and I agree with her.  You can almost always spot a crook by his wild enthusiasm or his absolute certainty.  When Ann Coulter says Democrats are faggots she does it with the same certainty that she might announce that they are all from outer space.  The trick is to keep the tone right and the expression sarcastic as if it is impossible for anyone to disagree.  She knows her right-wing suckers well.  Context is the most important thing in language.  Half-baked and poorly educated conservatives practice smear tactics as well as she does.

Start with a wild insult and you control everything.  Every neo-con traitor dirt bag knows the drill.  Sadly, too many liberals and progressives have been too interested in ideas and facts to catch on to the simple verbal aggression that is the stock and trade of every right-wing con artist.  If a conservative smears you, the best way to deal with the problem is to forget the choir boy stuff and reach for a baseball bat.  The worst way is to try to defend yourself in a civilized manner as if right-wingers are ever “civilized”.  As Ecclesiastes might have said, There is a time for “civilized discourse” and there is a time for “barbarism”. 

Your average lower middle class Republican is angry at the world and “anger speech” is always on the tip of his tongue.  He particularly despises liberals who read books, play with ideas, and have lively conversations.  Most horrifying of all he suspects that liberals don’t believe in Santa Clause.  The conservative mind, which understands all things at age 16, fights valiantly to keep its fists up against any idea that has not been certified by Limbaugh or Coulter.  He follows in the ancient tradition of those who thought lightening rods and regional time zones were the work of the devil.

The irony is that the American right-wing conservative is the most radical person in our history.  Unable to win honest elections, he feels free to rig them.  Unable to persuade Americans to wage wars of conquest, he flies Americans into skyscrapers as a sort of circus stunt to whip things up.  Since he hates people smart enough to see through his endless tricks, he makes sure that our media and schools become propaganda mills for his comic book ideas.  Every American institution is debased in the service of the privileged few, who have endless wealth, plus the criminal values of New York mafia dons and Southern plantation owners.  They whipped up enthusiasm for a never-ending phony war that they knew was lost before it started.  Still, it was a great way to brew up a honey pot for drug kingpins, weapons dealers, and every other sort of over-privileged jerk.

I don’t believe that America exists anymore.  We are just another pathetic third world shack full of termites and falling apart.  I do believe in crooks and traitors, however,  and they are as obvious as the maggots on a dead horse.

John Hanks
721-8122

Jail Bush:

Thanks for the Streiber piece.  He talks about the possibility of another 9/11.  Others have suggested this as well.  And what a crisis it would create if just happened to occur within the few months prior to the 2008 elections!

However, there is a fundamental difference this time: the Bush Administration has set things up so that they can remain in power.

Consider: just as only one news source reported the missing BBC tapes, only one news source (that I am aware of) - The New York Times, of all places - reported that Bush & Co. have successfully arranged for the president to have unilateral power to declare martial law.

As you know, the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 puts the power to declare martial law in the hands of a supermajority (2/3) of Congress.  The president has only very limited ability to do so.

However, within the defense budget bill passed in October 2006 was a provision that would allow a sitting president (Bush or successor) to delcare martial law unilaterally - and virtually at whim.  This power - more associated with distators and despots - is now in the hands of the most dangerous president of all time.

Where was the media on this?  And why did the Times wait four months after the fact to report it?

What this all means is that, should Bush & Co. create another 9/11 prior to the 2008 elections, the president will be able to declare martial law - and remain in power until such time as he relinquishes it.  And given the president’s current power to unilaterally declare anyone an “enemy combatant,” and the evisceration of “habeus corpus,” any American who dares speak out against martial law is likely to find themselves in jail.

And don’t think it can’t happen here.

Peace.

From ‘Whitley’s Journal’  Wednesday February 28, 2007
http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/

The 911 Script and the Age of Terror
Whitley Strieber

I must admit that I have been deeply shocked by a story that appeared today on my website, to the effect that the BBC reported the collapse of WTC Building 7 23 minutes before it actually took place. Previously, the BBC claimed that it had lost all of its 9/11 coverage, but this video has now surfaced. I watched it myself, and sat there with my blood literally running cold as I saw their reporter saying that Building 7 had collapsed while it was still visible behind her, perfectly intact.

Now, why wasn’t this just a simple mistake? For a simple reason: the collapse of Building 7 has been explained to us as a sort of freak accident that nobody expected.

It is, frankly, impossible that the BBC reporter’s statement was accidental. She is clearly seen reading from a teleprompter.  she was reading a script, and that script had been put up on her teleprompter early.

Somebody wrote that script and distributed it to the media. I have long since abandoned the US media as a lost cause.

The American media is an anachronism, by ignoring the real news and running the silly stuff.  Because of what appears to be an almost surrealistic belief that people cannot do bad things in concert, they missed Watergate. And they are missing 9/11 as well. They all are, and, in the end, they will be abandoned by the public because their silence and refusal to investigate are, in effect, lies spoken without words on behalf of what is coming to seem a devastating and widespread conspiracy against the lives of thousands of people, against western civilization and against human freedom at the deepest level.

And the scale of the thing is terrifying. If the BBC was reading a script, as it must have been, then they were all reading scripts, and not one reporter has come forward, not one editor, and there is not a breath of suggestion in the 9/11 Commission report that any such thing might have been happening.
The Bush presidency is a burnt-out rump, it would seem, reduced to this odd recent practice of sending its officials into harm’s way in the apparent hope that any misfortune befalling them will gain it some sympathy, even as the president prepares for the future by buying a large estate in Paraguay. (However, he might have done a little more research about that country before he bought, given that the Colorado Party, which has been in power since it was set up by Nazi sympathizers and German immigrants in 1947, is now facing a serious threat from Msgr. Fernando Lugo Méndez, a populist bishop who is likely to win the next general election.)

And then there is the terrifying prospect that another 9/11 will take place, but this time one so terrible that we will all desperately cleave to authority in the hope of preserving our lives, no matter who we think might be responsible. Anything less than a nuclear attack on one or more American cities would drive Bush from office, because it would reveal his entire anti-terrorism apparatus for the gimcrack sham that it is.

So it’s perfectly possible that nuclear weapons are already in our cities, and have been there for years. As the Bush presidency winds down, the only real question is, will they be used to bring the American people to heel, or will he choose the Paraguay option?

I used to believe that the Administration let 9/11 happen so that it could have an excuse to attack Iraq and destroy our freedoms. Given this latest piece of news, I think that anybody who seriously thinks that the whole event wasn’t carefully planned and fed to us as a scripted “news event” needs to have their head examined. It was planned, period. Otherwise this reporter wouldn’t have been announcing one of the disasters before it happened. It’s inescapable.

Okay “Gang”, I am starting to think I like you guys!
Here is a post from info-wars, Buzzflash will NOT let this be posted either..read it and weep.BBC Has Lost Tapes Of 21st Century’s Defining Moment
9/11 coverage gone due to “cock up”. Why is this not a world news headline?



Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Wednesday, February 28, 2007   It has come to light this week that the most pre-eminent broadcasting company in the world has lost the original recordings of its output for the entire day on September 11th 2001, just over five years on, yet no major news agency has even bothered to report the fact.
Despite being currently the biggest story on the internet and in the alternative media, the only place in the mainstream the story has appeared is on a small German news website.

This highlights the fact that the mainstream media is not free to report events. The information it disseminates is strictly controlled and regulated.

The BBC was forced into claiming that the recordings covering the 9/11 attacks have mysteriously vanished in response to fierce criticism over the fact that on the day the news agency reported that World Trade Center Building 7 had collapsed almost 30 minutes before it actually came down.

Conspiracy or no conspiracy, surely the fact that the BBC has made this announcement should be reported.

A cogent precedent can be found in the relatively recent furor over the loss of the moon landing tapes by NASA. This was reported in every major newspaper and on every major news website in the world for over a week when it came to light last August. The story then hit world headlines again when the tapes were found.

In the eyes of the mainstream media the September 11th attacks in 2001, it seems, are not as important an event as the moon landing, which happened last century, 38 years ago to be precise.

Therefore it is purely as a result of the persistence of the alternative media, and its audience, that regular BBC employees are now being deluged by e mails and calls asking them to divulge what their source was for reporting the collapse of Building 7 a full 26 minutes before it happened.

The BBC editor’s blog is currently carrying the following statement from Richard Porter, editor of BBC news:

“We no longer have the original tapes of our 9/11 coverage (for reasons of cock-up, not conspiracy). So if someone has got a recording of our output, I’d love to get hold of it. We do have the tapes for our sister channel News 24, but they don’t help clear up the issue one way or another.”

A RENDEZVOUS WITH DESTINY. There is a mysterious cycle in human events. To some generations much is given. Of other generations much is expected. This generation of Americans has a rendezvous with destiny.
  http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

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Is the Military Our Last Hope?

By Paul Craig Roberts

Is the high command of the US military breaking ranks with the Bush Regime?...

Perhaps America could regain its reputation if General Pace would send a division of US Marines to arrest Bush, Cheney, the entire civilian contingent in the Pentagon, the neoconservative nazis, and the complicit members of Congress and send them off to the Hague to be tried for war crimes.

=====

Rabbi Michael Lerner & 9/11 Skepticism

A 9/11 Gov’t Conspiracy? ‘I Wouldn’t Be Surprised,’
Says Tikkun Editor

Daniel Treiman | Tue. Feb 06, 2007

Rabbi Michael Lerner, the longtime activist and editor of Tikkun magazine, has published an essay saying he is open to the possibility that the American government may have been behind the September 11 terrorist attacks. http://www.911blogger.com/node/6006

=====

IS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE KUCINICH
GOING FOR THE TRUTH ABOUT 9/11?

[From 911blogger
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5850#comment ]

http://kucinich.us/

=====

DEAD ON ARRIVAL
The NIST 911 Report On The World Trade Center Collapse
By Mark H. Gaffney
http://rense.com/general74/nist.htm

=====

ARE YOU A 16 PERCENTER?

There is help for you!

    If you are among the 16% who still believe the Neonazicons’ conspiracy theory about 9/11, YOU CAN BE HELPED! Simply click on the links below to read the scientific debunking of the Bush pseudoscience fairytale about the WTC 9/11 atrocity.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html

http://www.wtc7.net/events/kc_science/index.html

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Jail Bush:

Thank you for that critically significant piece of evidence.  At first, I thought maybe the tape was doctored: since there is no “time stamp,” that entire report could have been an hour later, for all we know (i.e., after the collapse of WTC7).

But seeing the building in the background of the report stopped me cold.

For those who pass this along to others, one of the “devil’s advocate” positions might be that WTC 7 was “added in” to the background of the report; i.e., the tape was doctored.  However, if one simply watches the building during the entire report (ignore everything else), it is clear that this is not the case: it remains clear even when the camera is back in the studio, and there is no telltale “edge” on the image.

Peace.

BBC News announced WTC Building #7 collapse before it happened

On September 11th 2001, BBC World reported at 4:57pm Eastern Time
that the Salomon Brothers Building (more commonly known as WTC7
or World Trade Building 7) had collapsed.

This even made the 5pm EST headlines. What is bizarre is that the
building did not actually collapse until 5:20pm EST.

The collapse of building number seven has long been the ultimate
“smoking gun” in the World Trade Center tragedy, because it was
virtually undamaged in the attacks, and yet it went down like a
textbook demonstration of controlled demolition.

Below is a URL for a video that is 20 minutes of
the BBC TV broadcast that day, uncut, in which they announce the
collapse of building #7 long before it actually happened—in
fact, while their reporter in New York is talking about it, the
building is still standing in the background behind her!

Most of the first ten minutes of the video is just reporting
about the twin towers going down, which, frankly you can skip.
So move the slider on the video player not quite halfway to the
right (once that much of the video has loaded), and watch
from the point when the woman reporter comes on.
Text-over messages will point out the time discrepancies, and a
little arrow will occasionally point at #7, still standing.

But don’t miss seeing this evidence that the collapse of a
building that nobody could have expected to go down, was
announced so long before it actually happened.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=49f_1172526096

If any of you have not seen film of the textbook collapse of
#7, first go to:  http://www.911truestory.com/
and watch the slo-mo .gif.  It loads very quickly.

A RENDEZVOUS WITH DESTINY. There is a mysterious cycle in human events. To some generations much is given. Of other generations much is expected. This generation of Americans has a rendezvous with destiny.
  http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:::::::::::::::::::::::
S O M E O F T H E A B O V E   N E W S      
====================::::::::::::::::::::::

Take a bite outa Fox

        F O X A T T A C K S .C O M

Fox is not a credible news outlet and needs to be
stopped. Foxattacks.com will give you the information and tools you need to hit fox where it hurts. The current video presents the erroneous and slanted stories Fox recently ran about Barack Obama. In response, Obama refused to appear on Fox. Watch the video, then follow Obama’s lead and… Do Something.
FOX ATTACKS: OBAMA http://www.foxattacks.com

======

  STOP THE ESCALATION IN IRAQ

Take Action: Contact Your Legislator
Model Legislation
Fact Sheet
State-by-State Data
National Press Advisory
National Press Release
Press Clips
Model State Press Release
Sign up for Updates on this Campaign:
http://www.progressivestates.org/content/524/

==========

Google Blogs Alert for: 9/11 inside job

SABOTAGE IN THE WHITE HOUSE. CONGRESS, CLEAN OUT THE COCKROACHES. By Bgilmore

These are the people who strong-armed Congress NOT to investigate 9/11, who used every ruse to stop an investigation and to avoid testifying before the 9/11 commission. Why? Because, they said….
            http://www.democrats.com/node/12099

==========

Searching for 9/11 answers - By Derek Gentile,
Berkshire Eagle Staff   Monday, February 19

Part of group believes government planned attacks

STOCKBRIDGE — As much as “mainstream America” might wish it, the local members of the 9/11 Truth Movement say their organization is not going away anytime soon. “(An alternate theory of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, is) a scary thing for people to contemplate,” said Renzo Del Molino. “And I understand that. The realization that people in power are trying to hurt us, and not help us, is very frightening to them. It’s
frightening to me.” View Full Story:

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/headlines/ci_5257730
http://www.berkshireeagle.com

=========

          S P E E D - U P S

    “The world situation is worsening to an alarming degree. People all over the world are being called on to help, and are making their individual contributions as part of an overall prearranged plan. Part of the plan is taking down “A Course in Miracles,” and I am
fulfilling my part in the agreement, as you will
fulfill yours. You will be using abilities you
developed long ago, and which you are not really ready to use again. Because of the acute emergency, however, the usual slow, evolutionary process is being by-passed in what might best be described as a ‘celestial speed-up.’”

    ....That seemed so strange and bizarre to her
that she was ready to throw her notebook in the trash basket, and yet it triggered something like a long ago memory in her in which she said, “Of course I’ll go, Father: it’s for such a little while.”

    Still, she was obviously not completely
satisfied, for she tried one more time to abdicate her position. “Why me?” she asked. “I’m not religious: I don’t understand these things: I don’t even believe them. I’m about the poorest choice you could make.”

    The answer came back very clearly, “On the
contrary; you are an excellent choice. In fact, the best.”

    “But why?” she anguished. And then, without a
hint of doubt she heard the answer: “Because you’ll do it.”

    Helen had no response to that. She knew the Voice was right: she knew she would do it. And from that moment on the future of “A Course in Miracles” was set. Helen would “scribe” it to its completion, even though she might raise loud objections all along the way.

(From JOURNEY WITHOUT DISTANCE The Story Behind A
Course in Miracles, by Robert Skutch)

There are enough suspicious events connected with 911 that are a matter of public record.  Neocons in the pentagon working with Israeli generals.  The philosophy of the neocons which justifies any act to achieve an end.  The pursuit, arrest and retention of members of the Mossad during and after the attack on the twin towers.  Then there are the nummerous cover ups and foot drags.  Anyone who thinks that the Bush regime is morally incapable of doing a false flag attack has not been following the history of the Republican party from Operation Northwoods, and Nixon and Kissinger’s sabotage of the 1968 peace talks till now.  Sedition, subversion, and treason has been a matter of public record virtually ignored by the Democrats.  It could be that the Democrats were in on the whole thing as well.

monbiot and others never offer information or arguments to counter the evidence, they attack the psychological integrity of 911 truthers and present all kinds of reasons that prove nothing other than the self aggrandized status they bestow on themselves for seeing through the silliness of those that choose to pursue justice.  the mystery of course is what they have to gain by their own foolishness other than the glory of being in the minority, of being contrarian, of being like the bush’s.

Monbiot just wrote an essay on the foolishness of the 911 Truth Movement http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/02/20/bayoneting-a-scarecrow , how we’re wasting time and losing direction with conspiracies that no one can really do anything about. But think—- how many people have watched the documentaries on the web via this movement. And what stands out, stays with you? The media and the way it mounted and created movement. The way we were manipulated. (War is the baby-eater http://themoonsfavors.blogspot.com/2007/01/war-is-baby-eater.html ) . ARE manipulated. This is something we have to see to become healthy sentient beings again. And we’re seeing it. FOX news is working to self-immolate, as Colbert and Stewart pull back the curtain on the mindset / control that’s poisoning a whole world.

Well, I didn’t want to believe that Buzzflash was less than what they present themselves to be, but this article pretty much sums up Buzzflash’s stance on the 9/11 truth movement.
I am so disappointed.
An Appeal to 9/11 Conspiracy Buffs
A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
by Peter Michaelson
Can we persuade conspiracy buffs to drop their 9/11 speculations and join forces with the legions of the left? It would certainly be advantageous to have them by our side as we struggle to defeat our common foes on the right.
The standard theories and beliefs of 9/11 conspiracy buffs are well known and need not be repeated here. What needs telling, though, is the nature of the source of their adamant convictions. Perhaps a tour of the shaky substructure of their belief system can return them to their senses.
Journalist and author George Monbiot lamented last week about the 9/11-conspiracy phenomenon: “There is no reasoning with this madness,” he wrote. In comments about the conspiracy film, Loose Change, Monbiot observed that the film’s viewers are susceptible to its assertions “because it proposes a closed world: comprehensible, controllable, small. . . . This neat story draws campaigners away from real issues — global warming, the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, privatization, inequality — while permanently wrecking their credibility.”
It’s true that reasoning collapses at the portals of madness. But the conspiracy theorists are not mad in any clinical sense. Emotional issues subvert their reasoning, and that reasoning can shift and become rational when their minds are opened to new insight.
These conspiracy theorists are usually very bright, but they have an emotional weak spot. They reacted to the events of 9/11 with a sense of helplessness and powerlessness, which generated anxiety and fear in them. Their emotional priority was to scramble for safety, which they found in the world of fantasy. In self-deception, they developed a conspiracy fiction that they soon transformed into non-fiction and proclaimed to be absolute certainty. Religious fundamentalists, too, use rigid beliefs to develop certainty about the nature of the world. In both cases, the certainty doesn’t have to be rational; all that matters is that the belief has a stabilizing, calming, or grounding effect, like that of nicotine or alcohol.
The calming effect is accompanied by the illusion of power. Borrowing from the proposition that knowledge is power, conspiracists proclaim: “I know what actually happened! I know the truth!” This produces an impression of power that, coupled with the intensity of their 9/11 obsession, feels substantial to them. The power, however, is puny indeed, for the cognitive trickery in which they engage bestows enormous power on the “evil” conglomerate of elitists who they claim orchestrated 9/11. In locating these evil forces in their own backyard, they feel even more at the mercy of them, to which their fear of the imminent imposition of martial law in the USA bears witness. Unhealthy though it is, they gravitate to feeling powerless.
Monbiot, who has published two recent stories on the conspiracists, is being angrily attacked in hundreds of posts for his opposition to their beliefs.
The more we feel helpless, the more we make spurious claims to have power or to represent it. For instance, when children chase pigeons in the park, they are after the thrill of exercising power. The Harry Potter books and movies appeal to the desire in children to have the powers of a wizard. But real power frightens us when we’re not mature enough to accept reality. As Monbiot says, “The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do.”
Read the rest on Buzzflash

When Nixon and Kissinger conspired to sabotage the 1968 Peace Talks, they sentenced 20,000 American soldiers to death - just so Nixon could get elected.  Republican treason has been systematic and common place so the argument that they are incapable of a 911 false flag attack flies in the face of their long criminal history.

As usual it is the cover-ups that tell the tale.  Why do the Democrats cover for these bastards?

Post proofs that brotherhood is not so wild a dream as those who profit by postponing it pretend.
    ~~Norman Corwin

S O M E O F T H E A B O V E   N E W S      

==========================================
==========================================

9/11 SKEPTIC INCARCERATED FOR “evaluation.”

FROM: Veterans for 9/11 Truth
    Sunday, February 04, 2007
 
Alfons interviews Michael Cook: Michael Cook accused George Bush of being complicit in the 9/11 attacks, he is now being incarcerated for psychology evaluation by the federal government. Michael Cook.mp3—- Read More -

    This is a brief history of my legal problems. There are potentially lucrative lawsuits in the information presented here, and much more in information not presented here, for attorneys willing to take them on. I have no criminal record and a very respectable background.
    In April of 2005, I shared information on the attacks of 9/11/01 with my teaching assistant. I was working as a special educator….

    ....For folks who are interested, please feel free to write letters to me at Club Fed. Reading and writing letters helps pass the time, but the more letters I get the more the feds will know that folks are watching this case, thereby making it more difficult to railroad me further.

Peace through Truth and Justice,
                     
                      Mike

    ....Mailing address at the Federal Medical Center- (FMC- Free Mike Cook!)

Michael Cook
11288-032
FMC
P.O. Box 14500
Lexington, Ky. 40512-4500

http://freedomisforeverybody.blogspot.com/2007/02/fwd-re-back-to-jail.html

======================================================

Left Gatekeepers Against 9/11 Truth
MINDS HALF OPEN, OR HALF CLOSED?

The massive gates guarding the public secret of Neocon complicity in the atrocities of 9/11 creaked open a few inches this month when THE NATION magazine was forced to actually publish a few of the torrent of letters berating them for their complicity in helping to cover up the truth about those atrocities. (See below: “Is The Nation Going Sane?”)

Now ALTERNET has seen fit to let discretion be the better part of their invalorous participation in the superbly disciplined conspiracy of deadly silence. Article and discussion: 
  AlterNet Revisits 9-11 via Article by Sander Hicks
            http://www.911blogger.com/node/5932

WHAT NEXT? Are we witnessing the beginnings of a race to the top by the remaining progressive hold-outs against 9/11 truth? Will PROGRESSIVE MAGAZINE go progressive and start worrying less about watching their backs and their grants and their bank accounts, and more about printing the truth?  Will Air America’s Ed Schultz and The Young Turks grow up and stop covering up? Will that archeypical bully-boy Alexander Cockburn stop beating up on 9/11 truth in his CounterPunch?

Will Al Franken take finally to heart what he said (twice, on his February 2 show) is his most treasured advice from Molly Ivens: “DON’T EVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU JUST TELLING THE TRUTH IS NOT ENOUGH.”

From Molly’s lips to God’s ears.

On Dennis K: He is the most aware, on-top-of-it politician since Wellstone, at the least.  I am not the least bit surprised about his 9/11 position. If everyone who thinks he’s great would have WORKED to get him elected, instead of saying “He’s great, but he’s not electable.” then he would be president now.

Changes in so-called progressive media direction and numerous MSM limited hangouts (books by Woodward, Lance, Drumheller, et al), point to this:  In DC. the 911 coup is an open secret. The scramble is on to rein in the madmen without blowing the coverup, exploding a constitutional crisis and precipitating a global financial meltdown, all of which is inevitable.

But, now more than ever, putting on the pressure is critical. The madmen must be stopped before they start WWIII.

Support 911Truth - End War of Terror
Investigae, indict, prosecute and execute!

Post proofs that brotherhood is not so wild a dream as those who profit by postponing it pretend….
              ~~Norman Corwin

S O M E O F T H E A B O V E   N E W S      

==========================================

IS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE KUCINICH
GOING FOR THE TRUTH ABOUT 9/11?

[From 911blogger http://www.911blogger.com/node/5850#comment ]

You may want to go to this site and view the video clip there, to see what got this anti-9/11Truth guy so upset.

Dennis Kucinich Calls For Some 9/11 Truth

~~~~~
WOW
Man, Kucinich is ON! The only question and I’m not sure if it’s necessary is….Did that comment continue on or did it end there with “9/11” and he then go on to the next part of his plan…

Either way, Kucinich has proven himself to be a real lover of freedom. How about the dream team for this 08’

Kucinich/Ron Paul

To people who want to save this country!

~~~~~

Submitted by Orangutan. on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 1:01am.
I ran into Mr. Kucinich and his wife in Memphis
and told him that if he came out for new 9/11 investigations that the Truth movement would get behind him on his call for new investigations.

If this is in fact what he is doing, then we need to start backing his call for new investigations. My hope is that he will hold a press conference and call for new investigations, this may have been a trial balloon so I think we should email him and give this balloon all the lift we can.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

~~~~~

Submitted by LeftWright on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 2:01am.
Kucinich for 9/11 Truth!
Fast Fwd to about 3:59 at the front half of the video. It is very quick but he does say “we have a plan and our plan is to tell the truth about nine eleven”. I’m not sure what else he could mean with a comment like that.

“Tell the truth about nine eleven” implies that we have been told lies about nine eleven. He doesn’t merely call for a “new investigatgion,” rather he calls for an end to the lies. He implies that we already know the truth, we just need to tell the truth. It really doesn’t get any clearer than that.

This is pretty big coming from a sitting member of congress and a democratic presidential contender. As far as I’m concerned, Kucinich has my support!

http://kucinich.us/

http://www.911blogger.com/node/5850#comment

=====

      IS THE NATION GOING SANE?

The Nation: Letters from readers on 9/11

I wonder if Bush’s more and more evident insistence on all war all the time is making some people reevaluate their position on 911.
—Ronald
http://desip.igc.org

The Nation
This article can be found on the web at
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070205/letter

Letters
by OUR READERS

[from the February 5, 2007 issue]

9/11: THE JURY’S STILL OUT

“9/11: The Roots of Paranoia” by Christopher Hayes (Dec. 25) drew more mail than almost any Nation article in memory, except perhaps on the JFK assassination. Letters ran the gamut from the enraged (canceled subscriptions, charges of Nation stonewalling, anger at the use of the term “paranoia”) to the complimentary (“My thanks to Mr. Hayes for trying to chart a middle road between credulity and paranoia”). But almost all agree that we don’t know the whole story of what happened on September 11, 2001.

http://bleiersblog.blogspot.com/2007/01/nation-letters-from-readers-on-911.html

Chris Rose:
you hear that?
it’s the sound of a huge, massive, disinfo ship changing direction. this is a good sign—we now know never to trust the Nation or any other pseudo alternative news source, but they still want to try to preserve some credibility. this is a great victory, let’s keep the heat on these buggers!

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

      http://www.911blogger.com/node/5761#comment

I think 911 was planned and executed by the same Texas mafia style hidden government that got rid of the Kennedy’s and King.  This shadowy outfit has been around for years.  Some have died, but none have resigned.

As more people see the Bush gang in operation fewer and fewer of them are willing to say that such evil is impossible or that the the gang merely waited around for the stunt to take place.  There are thousands of internal and external connections and the averge citizen has at least one real power (so far).  He can draw his own conclusions unhampered by any demands to make an air tight legal case.  (Never give rich crooks an even break.)

I believe you’ll find this list of eminent scholars, politicians, and military personages along with their bio’s, statements, and portraits to be impressive.  Perhaps with these folks behind us, we don’t have to be so queasy about broaching the 911 Truth topic!  See 100+ patriots at http://www.patriotsquestion911.com .


For additional info see http://www.911truth.org , see http://www.911accountability.org for upcoming conference info.

Thanks.

Don Plummer
Grassroots contact for 911Truth.org and Colorado911Visibility.org

RE: Comment #42225 by Jail Bush Cheney Rumsfeld Joint Chiefs on 12/14 at 3:57pm.

“Boston Air Traffic Controller Says 9/11 An Inside Job - Knew people in FAA on day of hijackings who said intercept procedures should have been enacted as normal” 

Prison Planet | December 14, 2006
Paul Joseph Watson

—-

Thanks for that Jail Bush Cheney & Co. etc.!  The actual link for direct access is:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/boston_air_traffic_controller_911_inside_job.htm

It really is a “must read”!  And something sure begins to smell decidely fishy…

Buzzflash.net has conjured up “the LaRouchian threat” as cover for their censoring ALL 9/11 skeptics from their site. They can censor all they want: it’s Buzzflash’s site. But why push the fiction that it is a “democratic” site where posts are evaluated by the readers?! How can readers evaluate posts which are censored so that no one can read them? Nice “democratic” sentiment, but over-ridden by their Left-gatekeeper zeal.
    The real question here is: WHY are Buzzflash.net, Counterpunch, Chip Berlet, Ed Schultz, The Young Turks, etc., etc. ad nauseam so deperate to cover-up this elephant in the living room? The answer is not pretty.

Re BuzzFlash: Do a search for 9/11. There’s plenty. There’s also this note:

>> Update: The Leader of the Cultists who are trying to hijack BuzzFlash.com (you can tell who they are by their redundant, unrelenting complaints about the site in the comments section and their gang voting on storiess) actually called the editor of BuzzFlash.com on a Sunday morning at home to verbally assault him for banning him from the site! We’ve got some real kooks here. We don’t know this guy personally from Adam—and he calls the editor out of the blue at home on a Sunday to try and intimidate him (twice, we might add)! They are obsessed with unraveling 9/11 as the key to “enlightenment” about the “new world order,” believe that Israel was behind 9/11 (Jews control the world banking system is the subtext for them), and have many other obsessions that are LaRouchian in nature. We have taken the step of starting to zap their articles—and next we will remove them if they continue to write repetitive attacks on the site in the comments. Thus far, thanks to your help, they are failing to achieve their goal of taking over BuzzFlash.net through accumulating strong voting power. Please go over and vote on sane stories. BuzzFlash.net is close to being a great success, but the LaRouchies continue to come back, after continuously threatening to leave. It’s like swatting flies in a barn filled with cow manure. >>

ditto.  i checked out buzzflash after the former post vindicating it and the only 911 post was the well done piece of propaganda “911 Press For Truth” which is a hard sell for the “let it happen” mythology.

I know that buzzflash.COM has been known to, rarely, allow discussion of 911 Truth issues.

My comment concerns buzzflash.NET. From bitter experience I, and numerous others, can state absolutely that buzzflash.NET has for many months been diligently censoring — forbiding — any discussion of 9/11 questions whatsoever. Any such postings there last rarely more than an hour or so. They make no bones about it: straight up censorship. Ditto with any serious discussion of Israeli/US politics. Anyone can easily prove this to themselves simply by posting there.

If enough people called them to task about this, there is always the possibility that they would mend their ways. Unfortunately though, the tacit agreement among certain “progressive” media to exclude 9/11 from any serious discussion runs very deep. Regretable, to say the least. But absolutely true.

In comment #43865 by Myra99 we hear:
>>Then there is the new “democratic” site http://www.buzzflash.net which with great fanfare advertises that its readers can vote on its articles for importance and relevance—but anything having to do with 9/11 or anything the least bit critical of the Israeli government is instantly deleted from the site! Karl Rove could learn from these people. >>

Where have you been? Buzzflash has been on the job 24/7, when it wasn’t popular, when the going was tough, working for zip, since Bush stole the 2000 election. Have alook at what a simple search for 911 brings:

http://www.buzzflash.com/search/?Query=9/11
or
http://www.buzzflash.com/search/?Query=911

“What’s the buzz?” is a new feature they’re trying out, a favor to the blogging community:
http://www.buzzflash.net/integrate.php

BuzzFlash has always been about news. Depend on it.

David:

Re your query re why no one has “blown the whistle” on 9/11, despite how many people must have had at least SOME knowledge, you may have missed my response to Ken:

“As for how a vast conspiracy could possibly be kept “secret,” there are at least four factors that allow for this.  First, not everyone involved in a conspiracy has ALL the facts of the conspiracy; indeed, they may not even know that what they are doing - their piece of the puzzle - fits into a conspiracy at all.  Second, many of those involved WANT to be involved, because they truly believe the “rightness” of it.  That may sound incredible re the murder of 3,000 American citizens by its own government.  However, there are “broad ideals” - far-reaching “future history” - for which some people would see the murder of 3,000 as an “acceptable loss.”  For example, if you knew that killing 10 people would provide a cure for cancer - one that would save MILLIONS of lives - would you “accept” those murders?  How about 100 people, to save millions of lives?  How about a thousand?  You and I might not “accept” those losses, but some people would.  Third, consider that 57 of 100 witnesses to the JFK killing died within two years of that event - all of “natural causes” or “accidents.”  That is historical fact.  So we can assume that some, perhaps many, of those involved in the 9/11 conspiracy - particularly those at the “lowest levels”; i.e., those who would not be “missed” by any except their closest family and friends - have died or will die before they can say anything - if they (and their families) haven’t already been threatened with death if they DO say anything.  Fourth, even if one of the conspirators DID come forward, who would believe them?  After all, many on this board are not even willing to believe that a conspiracy is POSSIBLE.  So how would any of them know - really KNOW - that a claimed “whistleblower” was telling the truth?”

Peace.

that was fintin.  i was posting his stuff for perusal.  i don’t know what to make of the guy but i find him interesting to listen to.  i said at the outset that it is a “tough call” to accept that all of the 911 gods and goddesses are cia but i have heard that about ruppert and alex jones.  very hard to believe.  nothing sinister about the post, just a guy like many that makes this movement interesting. now about senate bill 517, the weather modification bill.  this is a bill that everyone needs to look into and fight with everything they’ve got.  it wants to legalize what is already going on in our skies (persistent contrails “chemtrails”) and do this with “no government or public oversight”  in other words.. well, you know what that means.  this is the end of us all and or (as dennis kucinich said) mood control, mind control, biological weapons testing on large populations, etc.  it’s all part of the same thing 9/11-chemtrails-

In response to comment #43976; Despite not having hard evidence to point to (other than that which has been brough forward by scientists and academics), all one needs to do is connect the dots. Look at the motive, the actions and events preceding and following 9/11, and the extraordinary coincidences therein.  All of these would have to be negated in order to conclude that it was not our government that was responsible for 9/11, and instead a couple of losers with boxcutters.  The only real rational point that the establishment presents - one I can’t get past - is how is it that no one has come forward. Even if death was their deterrant, how this be? The Bush administration stonewalling the investigation, being unwilling to testify before the commison under oath, the Invasion of Iraq (and even Afghanistan), the no-bid contracts for reconstruction, the ursurping of all the defense systems in the US, the stated neo-con agenda prior to 9/11, Bush’s strategic positioning on the morning of the attacks, the very name of the operation - 911 - the US national emergency number…and on and on. If you posited the two stories (gov’t's & conspiracy theorist’s) to a logical person detached from the emotional, patriotic, or disinformation campaigns, I would doubt that anyone would choose the government’s version as the true version…and this doesn’t even touch the relationships and actual motives for undertaking the project.  So my question is, what evidence are you basing your assessment upon?  And how would you answer the question I posed earlier - why has no one blown the whistle?

Response to Comment #43970 by Jail Bush Cheney Rumsfeld Joint Chiefs

Hey JBCRJC,

If I misconstrued your comment, it’s because the distinction between the inserted text and your words is somewhat vague. You might want to put quotes, etc. in parentheses.

Well, well, look at this: Comment #43976 by S.517 Weaponizing The Weather / Toxic Skies  on  12/27  at  11:31 am…“For the last three years we have been quietly investigating the cover-up of the 9/11 attacks. Ours has been a wide-ranging inquiry which paid special attention to those who claim to be already exposing the truth.”.....Now this is Fintan Dunne, word for bleeding word, posting under yet another handle. What’s the deal, Fintan, or sycophant alias #2, or whichever operative is posting this stuff, not enough traffic at Breakfornews.com? Or, is my Ocam’s razor 2nd assumption the right one? Who’s going to invite you to their conferences if you’re calling them all fakes? Classic sour grapes, Fintan, take your Neemwell, chill and hit the mat.

As for this: Comment #43956 by Mac McKinney  on  12/27  at  9:47 am “Reply to Comment #43858 by Jail Bush Cheney Rumsfeld Joint Chiefs — Golly, JBCRJC, is there anybody out there you don’t suspect? ...Madsen’s currently promoting Nuremberg-style Tribunals against the Bush Cabal. Isn’t that going a little too far for an undercover agent?”

In response: you’ve got to spend some time with Fintan Dunne at http://WWW.breakfornews.com to figure out what’s bugging him. That JBCRJC post, cited, starts out sounding like someone referencing Fintan, then morphs into sounding just like Fintan himself. Could be him or a confirmed sycophant. Similar to what’s posted here, on his webcasts Mr. Dunne will tell you that the 911Truth movement is all just an “orgy of evidence” (from the movie “Minority Report” which he credits) and that this “orgy of evidence” is all meant simply to confuse everyone. But, after awhile it starts to sink in that Finten is either himself a disinfo. agent or that he is simply annoyed that he’s not being invited to the 911 Truth conferences. There are others on the edges not unlike him; e.g. Gerard Holmgren, Rosalee Grabel — see http://thewebfairy.com/ — they could all be part of the same disinfo. operation or just not happy campers.

Now when it comes to Alex Cockburn, David Corn, Noam Chomskey and Amy Goodman, that’s a little more complicated. Some are saying that Chomsky is and has been a “rich” asset for decades —
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/noamchomskygatekepper26sep05.shtml
— others (myself included) that Chomsky and this whole lot are more worried about their lecture tours getting cancelled from association with “wacko” conspiracy theorists.

At day’s end, there’s a lot of history that the MSM is not going to ever report. Does that mean that every effort to get past their censorship is “conspiracy theory?” Chomsky has himself called the term a cheap and easy way to dismiss someone, especially when it’s used against him. So he knows its weight when he uses it to dismiss the 911Truth movement as “just an internet ‘conspiracy theory,’” just as he did with the Kennedy assassination independent investigators. So what about Kennedy? Chomsky says that even if it wasn’t done by lone gunman Oswald, it matters not a bit how or why Kennedy was killed. Tell that to the survivors of the 58K Vietnam US Service dead, and for the most informed lecture on the subject, check this out:

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?show=13

Wednesday, November 22nd, 2006
“The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Part Two,” with researcher John Judge.

Wednesday, November 15th, 2006
“The Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Part One” with author and researcher, John Judge.

For the last three years we have been quietly investigating the cover-up of the 9/11 attacks. Ours has been a wide-ranging inquiry which paid special attention to those who claim to be already exposing the truth.

NO ROGUE GROUP

We published our first investigative articles on the 9/11 attacks—just 7 and 14 days after the event. We knew, as did many others, that the real planners were not ‘Al-Qaida’

What will be the most startling aspect of our investigation for many people is the vast scale of governmental control of the 9/11 movement and alternative investigators and media. From websites to commentators; from analysts to political personages,

In short, the government is running not only the 9/11 movement, but also controlling the 9/11 issue in the alternative media.

THE INTERNET POLICE

Here’s a quote from a recent article on the UK Guardian:

“The Chinese government, employs an estimated 30,000 internet police, as part of a long-standing policy to control the web so that it can be used by businesses but not by political opponents.”

Think the ideology and practice of the USA would be any different? Of course not.

These people are all over the Internet They are all over the 9/11 issue; all over the ‘stolen’ election of 2004; behind the psychological operations designed to inspire fear of earth changes, of global warming, of the Super-State and the so-called New World Order;

Time we opened our eyes to see them. It’s not just the mainstream which is controlled. From the moment the Internet became prominent, a vast budget has been expended to control all the high-trafficked intersections on the information superhighway.

THE FAKE ‘EXPOSING’ OF 9/11

Many of these sites/assets were put in place long before 9/11. A key goal was to ensure that if some truth must come out, it will be a truth designed and controlled by intelligence agencies—with agency assets in a position to ensure misdirection and damage limitation.

To this end, an orgy of evidence [See Minority Report Part I] in the form of deliberately misleading 9/11 ‘clues’, were designed into the 9/11 operation from the start—to give these assets prearranged talking points with which to fill their column inches and programming. This has served to confuse and confound.

All this activity rose to a crescendo around the time the Kerry presidential bid hit it’s planned implosion in the ‘stolen’ election.

The hyping of the 9/11 issue up until the ‘defeat’ of Kerry was designed to max out activist interest in the issue, then bury it with the aid of general post-Kerry, left-wing political disillusion -against the backdrop of division in the 9/11 Movement itself.

Also part of a similar confounding exercise were the subsequent 9/11 Movement ‘flame wars’, as different assets attacked each other to undermine their collective credibility and disillusion ordinary grassroots 9/11 truth activists.

THE SMOKESCREEN

A persistent theme of the disinformation spread by these assets is to portray the machinations of this elite group acting through the CIA/NSA/ETC. as if they originate from somewhere other than the US security/intelligence apparatus.

Suspicion is directed instead onto the Israelis, the ‘City of London’, ‘International Bankers’, The Rockefellers, The Bildebergers, and most infamously, the ill-defined, so-called New World Order. Of course, some of these elements are complicit in certain events, but the aim is to downplay the U.S. establishment’s guiding hand and the broad CFR/corporate support.

Some may be surprised by the range and scope of the misinformation sites we have detailed, and may even be disconsolate to see the sheer scale of the social and political control which their virtually unlimited budget can achieve.

All we can say is…. deal with it. We had to. It’s better than us all flailing around in ignorance. And it explains why men and women of good heart have been getting nowhere.

MM/ i can see that this movement or the various politicos within are in danger of subverting it by their inability to read something quite simple without jumping in with their own conclusions. my post re: madsen was in response to the disinformation post to show how deeply this movement is manipulated.  i didn’t say that finster is credible in his assessment of madsen, i only passed an article of his on as an example.  i like finster and find him interesting but if we believe everything one person or another says we are at a loss for critical thinking.  i also suggest that if you find his assessment of madsen or ruppert or alex jones to be wildly off base to spend some time on his site reading some of the articles and links.  i am not in a position to say whether madsen is credible or not so i focus on things that are within my realm of understanding.

Reply to Comment #43858 by Jail Bush Cheney Rumsfeld Joint Chiefs

Golly, JBCRJC, is there anybody out there you don’t suspect? Why would Madsen, for example, warn everyone to watch out for operatives trying to subvert the 9/11 Truth Movement if he’s one of them himself? Madsen’s currently promoting Nuremberg-style Tribunals against the Bush Cabal. Isn’t that going a little too far for an undercover agent?

Post proofs that brotherhood is not so wild a dream as those who profit by postponing it pretend….
~~Norman Corwin

S O M E O F T H E A B O V E N E W S

===

“Progressive” Pundits:
B O W L I N G
I N
S L O V A K I A

[The writer of this review focuses on the lethal CAREERISM of the Neo-cons and Neo-liberals; but the craven careerist hacks embeded in some of the most influential “progressive” media are at least as dangerous to our democracy:
David Corn of The Nation magazine, for instance, is currently RUNNING AN AD on Air America Radio frantically urging us to leave off questioning the Bush regime’s account of 9/11 (even though scientific polls clearly show that only SIXTEEN PERCENT of Americans accept that account!), and to banish impeachment from our thoughts!
Some of the others who are advancing their careers by helping the Neo-cons and the Neo-libs to squelch questioning and investigation of their crimes:

Alexander Cockburn of .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) , Ed Schultz of .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) , The Young Turks of .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) .

Then there is the new “democratic” site http://www.buzzflash.net which with great fanfare advertises that its readers can vote on its articles for importance and relevance—but anything having to do with 9/11 or anything the least bit critical of the Israeli government is instantly deleted from the site! Karl Rove could learn from these people.

And we must not forget to include in this list of treachery the grand old man of Manufacturing Consent himself: Noam Chomsky, diligently manufacturing cover-up for the most dangerous regime in US history!]

From: LONDON REVIEW OF BOOKS
Vol. 29 No. 1 dated 4 January 2007

Dragon-Slayers
by Corey Robin

“....Many people believe that great crimes come from terrible ideas: Marxism, racism and Islamic fundamentalism gave us the Gulag, Auschwitz and 9/11. It was the singular achievement of [Hannah Arendt’s book] EICHMANN IN JERUSALEM, however, to remind us that the worst atrocities often arise from the simplest of vices. And few vices, in Arendt’s mind, were more vicious than careerism. ‘The East is a career,’ Disraeli wrote. And so was the Holocaust, according to Arendt. ‘What for Eichmann was a job, with its daily routine, its ups and downs, was for the Jews quite literally the end of the world.’ Genocide, she insisted, is work. If it is to be done, people must be hired and paid; if it is to be done well, they must be supervised and promoted.

“Eichmann was a careerist of the first order. He had ‘no motives at all’, Arendt insisted, ‘except for an extraordinary diligence in looking out for his personal advancement’. He joined the Nazis because he saw in them an opportunity to ‘start from scratch and still make a career’, and ‘what he fervently believed in up to the end was success.’ Late in the war, as Nazi leaders brooded in Berlin over their impending fate and that of Germany, Eichmann was fretting over superiors’ refusing to invite him to lunch. Years later, he had no memory of the Wannsee [‘final solution’] Conference, but clearly remembered bowling with senior officials in Slovakia.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n01/print/robi02_.html

CIA fakes is covered on http://www.gulufuture.com whether you believe him or not (it’s a tough call) finster thinks everybody at the helm of this movement is CIA.  No question there is huge disinformation and manipulation within the 911 movement and most of it is pretty hard to spot.  read his take on Madsen then check out his site.

Any plot/conspiracy is vulnerable at the weakest link(s).

And General Leonid Ivashow and Wayne Madsen are really weak links.

First the General: Now this guy plays well in the former Soviet Union.
No problem there. He rants about the Putin crew being NWO puppets,
and it surely goes down a bomb. Which it’s meant to. Just like Alex Jones
equivalent is meant to sell well in this zone….

But whoever decided to begin to market him to the Western 9/11 skeptics
needs their heads examined. It take a big stretch in the imagination to
figure that a guy who looks like a Russian mafia don and used to head up
the Russian Army—fer chrissakes!—could possibly be on our side.
( http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11 )

You don’t get to head the Russian Armed Forces by being a beacon for
light and truth. That’s a no-brainer. Imagine a former U.S. Chairman of
the Joint Chiefs of Staff cheering on a 9/11 truth meeting and that should
give you a picture of how likely Ivashov is to be one of the good guys!

So once you get suspicious about Ivashov, you get to wondering how and
why 9/11 luminaries are hanging out with him at that Brussels meeting.
( http://www.axisforpeace.net/rubrique27.html )

Now you got all them in your sights too and you’re sniffing: Fake..?..

Next Madsen: Well when I burned him on the Democratic Underground
Forum in the middle of the post-2004-election-stealing hoopla, the
agency should have pulled him. No question. Somebody goofed bad.

The DU people took one look at my article:
( http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/MadsenVoteFraudTaleSpin.htm )

...and they went Whoaaa. “This guy is ex-NSA!” Then they read how his
story of a multi-million-dollar check to an offshore Bush trust fund being
used to steal the election was a red herring and they went Whoaaa again.

And finally, being as how they were reeling from the Bush “victory” and
trying to figure how they got screwed soooo bad….. when they read that
Madsen had helped to decoy them into expecting an October Surprise
attack on Iran—just days before the election (when Bush actually was
going to steal the vote like in 2000 ) they went Whoaaa for a third tiime.
( http://www.lebanonwire.com/0410/04102002LW.asp )

Then they went back to Whoaaa number 1, and they said “ex-NSA, Eh?”

And they dumped him faster than a pneumatic trash van empties bins.
I was there. I wrote the article. I saw him go down in flames.

But did the agency pull him? Nope. Dumb asses kept him at the station.

Now when you see Kurt Nimmo and the rest of the CIA Fakes linking to
his stuff and him still pawning off the same Iran Invasion shit that
got him canned before…. you’re the one going Whoaaa.
( http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=179 )

And now between Madsen and Ivashov -you’re wondering… WTF ???

And you’re figuring that if Ivashov is hanging out with all these guys like
Andreas von Buelow, Christopher Bollyn, Phil Berg, Thierry Meyssan,
Webster Tarpley and David Shayler….. who’ve been on Alex Jones….

And if Nimmo is pushing Madsen’s ‘Iran Invasion’ stuff AND Ivashov -both!
And he is tight with Jack Blood and Mike Rivero…. and Rivero is on Jack
Blood and Jack blood hosts the AJ show… and they all buy Hopsicker and
Keller… and AntiWar.com pushes the Iran Invasion stuff too… and Sibel
Edmonds is on Antiwar.com… and she agrees with Hopsicker about Atta &
Drugs… and ...... and… and round and round the clique it goes….

And suddenly you’re on to it! The whole crew are CIA Fakes.

Like I say… the weakest links are always a problem.
Compounded in this case by Intel Brass ineptitude.

Ah well… their loss - our gain.

I want to add to Jail Bush Cheney’s comment.

He is absolutely correct that, while it is good to continue honing our positions and developing clear ways of expressing ourselves here in cyberspace, all of this is moot if we are not out in the physical world trying to get the truth out there as well.

In NYC, for example, ny911truth is at Ground Zero every Saturday, giving out literature and speaking to people about 9/11.  We (I am a member) are taught how to engage people WITHOUT being confrontational, combative, argumentative or insulting.  Because those are not good ways to get people to listen to one’s position.

Sometimes it is enough to simply be able to get a person to take a flyer, or read one of the many posters that the group has at the site.  If they want more info, they will ask.  If they feel comfortable engaging in some discussion, we only go as far as they are comfortable going.

In any case, as JBC suggests, I would urge everyone to “take it to the streets” as well as continuing the cyberspace discussion.

As an aside, ny911truth, and some of the other 9/11 truth organizations, have a DVD that you can get, usually for free, and usually in large quantities (tens, even dozens).  It’s called “Confronting the Evidence,” a 2.5-hour video (sponsored by 9/11 truth maven Jimmy Walters) that comprises independent reports plus parts of the 9/11 4th anniversary conclave and forum held in NYC.  I highly recommend it as an intro to the 9/11 truth movement.

Peace.

To: Comment #43781 by deborah conner on 12/26 at 11:26 am
===============================================
Your comment on the so-called conspiracy theory, in response to Linda’s, is indeed very deep, true, and thoughtful. I concur, and think it should be a must reading for those who live in the darkness of the state of denial, like our moron president.

Thank you for saying in few words something that was always stirring in my my mind, but never found the words to put it in such precise way.

hey,  who the hell is linda or anyone for that matter.  anyone who has the self aggrandized nerve to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t do sinks into their own stupidity faster than the implosion of wtc7.  it has been suggested that people just ignore the flat earthists and other’s who couldn’t survive an 8th grade physics lesson. why not just present new information as it comes up and ignore the time wasters.  they want us on this site rather than out in the streets disseminating the truth.  speaking of, there is a very good site http://www.911sharethetruth.com that has information cards about 911.  you can buy a thousand for 90 bucks and leave them in restaurants, put one in every bill you pay, leave in the post office or anywhere.  take an hour a day and tip under windshield wipers rather than wasting time here trying to convince a few pin heads that the law of gravity exists.

I would like to add to Linda’s comment re the Patriot Act, as well as bringing up something that has not been discussed.

I am very close with a long-term centrist Congressperson from my area.  He told me that the Patriot Act was actually mostly pre-written between 1998 (i.e., prior to Bush becoming president) and 2000, and based largely on PNAC’s “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” and other right-wing think tank position papers.  Thus, the bulk of it was literally “sitting on the shelf” prior to 9/11.  It was then taken off the shelf, modified in certain ways, and presented to Congress.

This person also tells me that it was presented on a Friday, and a vote was to be taken on Monday.  This gave 400+ Congresspersons and 100 Senators TWO DAYS to read the entire thing.  But it did not end there.  He tells me that when the Act was presented for vote, major changes had been made that even those who HAD the time and ability to read it were unaware of.  It was then presented for vote WITHOUT DEBATE; i.e., no debate was PERMITTED on the Act; it was an “up or down” vote.  Needless to say, many reps and senators voted for it because (i) they had never read it, but did not want to look “weak,” or (ii) those who read it did not know of the changes.

Does it surprise anyone that THIS is the way our so-called “democracy” actually works?  That a MAJOR Act would be provided with only two days to be read, then modified without consent, and then presented for vote without debate?

The other issue I wanted to bring up is OBL.  Anyone who thinks our government couldn’t “find” or “capture” OBL is living in a fantasy.  Not only was OBL in Dubai in late 2001 (where he had a medical procedure and, according to some sources, met with a CIA contact), but it is common knowledge in Dubai (I have spoken with a number of residents about this) that he returns regularly for his medical treatment.  So if we really wanted him, we could have him any time.

As an aside, should it surprise anyone that the next big “tourist destination” - with hotels, convention centers, resorts, amusement parks, etc. - a place where “the Donald” (Trump) is investing over $250 million, is…Dubai?

Peace.

This is an alert to everybody out there from today’s Wayne Madsen Report (http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/). For those of you who don’t know who Wayne Madsen is, he is an ex-Naval Intelligence Officer who also worked for the National Intelligence Agency before retiring. He has cultivated contacts around the world for years, including among foreign intelligence services. He is also a Tom Paine style patriot who is an arch-foe of the neocon movement. Consequently they try to slander him whenever they can, with little success, because he is still called upon as an expert witness globally in trials and investigations.

His website publishes some very hard to get at truths and revelations that are normally beyond the pale of average investigative reporting. He is an undeclared source for some of the major media. Occasionally he blows it and will then print a correction, but most of the time what he uncovers is inevitably corroborated.

He makes reference to the Russian-Israeli Mafia below, so for those of you unfamiliar with this term, you should either Google it and read up, or search Madsen’s website, which takes a little getting used to. Actually, some of the Google hits will be from his website. Anyway, please read on, because this is important.

From today’s WMR:

“WMR can also report that there is a significant penetration of the so-called “9/11 Truth” movement by elements funded and supported by the Russian-Israeli Mafia and its supporters in the Bush administration and U.S. media. The reason for the penetration is primarily to deter the movement from looking at the role of the Russian-Israeli Mafia in the terrorist attacks and ensuring that more far out disinformation theories are accepted as credible explanations for the systematic and coordinated “failures” of the U.S. air defense, air traffic control, law enforcement, immigration, and intelligence systems.”

What Madsen is saying, in essence, is that there are operatives out there right now trying to comandeer the 9/11 Truth movement and undermine it. So it is incumbent upon us to be doubly aware, cautious and honest. So our efforts now may include not only debunking the 9/11 Commission, but debunking alleged debunkers who don’t pass the reality test. And, of course, there are those who simply want to destroy the 9/11 Truth movement, period, by associating it with science fiction, the X-Files, etc., etc. for whatever reasons.

RE: Comment #43712 by Linda  on  12/25  at  3:12 pm — “I must not contrive conspiracy theories that I have no proof of”.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed, let’s keep it simple:

1. Documented pasties could not have executed the spectacularly horrific 9/11 attacks; i.e. fly complex jumbo jets like fighter pilots. Hani Hanjour, alleged hijack pilot of AA77, was supposedly licensed to fly single-engine aircraft, but in August of 2001, he arrived at the Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland. His attempt to get himself checked out in a single-engine plane ended in failure. Owing to his general incompetence, officials at Bowie refused to rent an aircraft to him.

2. Pentagon SOP defense procedures allow zero air craft into its — the world’s most secure — airspace. Even if “incompetence” is the accepted excuse, demotions and court marshals should follow, not “promotions;”  e.g. Gen. Richard Myers, the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and General Ralph Eberhart,  the NORAD director, both promoted.

3. Against all Secret Service SOP, Bush sat in Booker School, a publicly announced location, for 30 minutes and later on Air Force One, 45 minutes airborne, before any fighter support was provided — security stripped — while the nation was “under attack.” Again, “incompetence” resulted in no official reprimands.

4. In the midst of all this, the threat was phoned in: “Angle is next.” (Angle = Air Force One). It was first “officially” acknowledged then “officially” denied. William Safire wrote about it in the New York Times. The threat came encrusted with enough top-secret code to be a credible threat. Also, never discussed in the corporate-main-stream media (MSM) were the 15-odd military drills (some virtually identical to real 9/11 events). These drills had STRATCOM totally mobilized and fully armed, in an advanced DEFCON posture. Bush jetted to Offut Air Force Base in Nebraska to take physical control of the nuclear trigger — the codes were compromised.

5. Finally, on 9/11 Bush spoke directly with Russian leader Vladimir Putin. This was also acknowledged but not detailed. Even before the US invaded Afghanistan, special forces took control of military bases in the gas-&-oil-rich former Soviets around the Caspian Basin, right on the Russian boarder. This barely made it into the MSM, but reveals the heart of the 9/11 coup d’état by a rogue network operating within and without US security agencies — the call to Putin where Bush laid out the coup plotters’ demands: The War of Civilizations starts now and Russia had better not interfere with US plans to invade the Middle East.

After 5 years of cover up, the most charitable thing anyone could say about President Bush is that on 9/11 there was a gun to his head, but he surrendered the nation. Many warnings surfaced prior to the 9/11 operation, but numerous moles, well placed throughout the security agencies, blocked investigations to stop it. In Woodward’s limited hangout, “State of Denial,” he calls 9/11 an intelligence “failure;” on the contrary it was a stunning intelligence “success,” as this rogue network that executed the 9/11 coup is threaded throughout US and global intelligence agencies and media. It takes orders from global financiers — The New World Oligarchy. We now know that even Bush was alerted, but of all the proposed excuses of “incompetence,” insightful analysis suggests that perhaps only his is not fabricated for the cover up — a perfect fit, the hand-picked puppet, the “useful fool” par excellence.

In comment #43712 Linda says :
You should all make a promise for the New Year.
That is, “I must not contrive conspiracy theories that I have no proof of”. >>

What is the proof of the official version? What is its quality? I would urge, ASK THESE QUESTIONS. It’s what we do in a democracy.

Circumstantial evidence, empirical evidence: that’s what we use to make sense of the world. It’s what we have, all we’ve ever had.

Motive is a valid factor used in judgment. When “conspiracy” as a concept becomes closely linked to emotional taboo, concepts such as x-file-ism, lunacy, paranoia, it shuts people up. (You felt it, didn’t you, part of the propaganda to shut your mind up?) Yet conspiracy is a fact of life, a principle of running any campaign, be it business, military, romantic, or criminal. It’s social: we “conspire”; we join or act together. We combine. The United States itself began as a conspiracy.

It’s our duty to ask questions. 911 was used as the cornerstone in making major changes in law, policy, privacy, use of revenue. Use and organization of Intelligence. People’s lives, innocent people, thousands of miles away.

And just how did that phone-book sized Patriot Act come together on such short notice? It DEFIES REASON that it was pulled together as a result of some surprise attack.

Conspiracy theory? Let’s get real. Have a look: no end of stuff here, good old conspiracies that really happened: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/  Things that began as theory, things held secret, things that were subsequently traced back by theory to their source, to their evidence. It’s what reasonable beings do.

Athiesm is too religious for me.  I don’t acknowledge any time wasting discussion over whether there is a god or not or whether to believe in goddess.  911 “truth” is reality based, factual hard science.  no belief systems needed here, just the willingness to accept the facts or to reject them and stick to your belief systems.

To All of You:

Happy Holidays and have a great New Year !
You should all make a promise for the New Year.
That is, “I must not contrive conspiracy theories that I have no proof of”.
Again, let me hear you say it: “I WILL NOT CONTRIVE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT I HAVE NO PROOF OF”.
HAPPY NEW YEAR

Excuse me, I didn’t see someone say “After researching it I found this to have the most hits.”  The person’s sentence made it easy to infer that the sense was “this is the most I have seen when reading TruthDigs.”  To me it seems mean and petty to ridicule people the way you did here.  I believe it is because you are frightened of the truth.  Now flame me, see what that proves.

Winterfire:

I don’t know the difference between hits and comments in this regard, but I can add to Joan’s comment and point out that the “God’s Rottweiler Barks” thread has almost 600 comments already. Seems that Sam Harris is more of a lightning rod right now than 9/11.  But that does not mean that the interest in alternative theories of 9/11 is not growing: it is, in leaps and bounds, both nationally and internationally.

Peace.

Kudos to “persistent contrails” for talking about the subject of “chemtrails,” which look like normal jet contrails but are very very different.. Where I live they spray them heavily nearly every day.

Please check out this page which has a lot of information on the subject, including many photos, an Alex Jones interview with Clifford Carnicom, and a re-edited full-screen quicktime of his film “Aresol Crimes”..

http://www.newsosinterest.tv/chemtrails.html

Winterfire:

Wrong again.
An Atheist Manifesto has 1,814 hits as of this writing. This 9/11 nonsense has only received 399 hits.
Just shows how scientific you are about researching a subject.
Ha, Ha.

I would simply observe that during of all my time reading and commenting at Truthdig,this srticle has received the most hits and comments, ever!

That should tell us all something; like very few Americans really believe that the Bush administrations has told us the truth about 9/11 or the anthrax attacks, and that is really all that matters.

http://www.carnicom.com
this discussion could be expanded.  911 was business as usual by the military industrial complex as is the hard sell on global warming to scare us into submission to embrace our demise via the persistent contrail horror that is the biggest story of all time.  this and 911 and all the other horrors are all the work of a very few who pull the strings.
http://www.carnicom.com  http://www.californiaskywatch.com

watch 9/11 Loose Change on youtube, google video, or whatever you guys look on

scientific evidence something sketchy is up, i don’t believe what we’ve been told

In #43203 Craig R. Lane said:  Both of these guys want to limit discourse here, both DON’T get what the info. shared here DOES prove: NO ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE WHAT HAPPENED/NO ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE WHAT DID NOT HAPPEN EITHER. One thing NOT helping is trying to limit any debate on the matter… >>

Well spoke. I suspect that’s why they’re here.

Meanwhile, take heart. The debate IS expanding—in other countries, on national tv yet. And if nothing more is gained from this, a look back at the propaganda that’s become standard newsfare in the Bush years is both sobering and needed.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20061221&articleId=4228

Video Exposing Blunders of 9/11 Commission Report Airs on New Zealand Television

Columbia MO December 23, 2006—On December 16, 2006, while most Americans slept, Television 3 New Zealand debuted the provocative documentary “911 In Plane Site” on national television. The film presents photographs and video footage from that fateful day, as well as computer-aided analysis focusing on the Pentagon and World Trade Center buildings One, Two and Seven. Also examined are dozens of independent and mainstream media news reports from the morning of September 11 that highlights inconsistencies and contradictions in the “official” account.

Saturday night’s national airing of “In Plane Site” on New Zealand television represents a historic turning point in the global collective consciousness regarding the terrorist attacks of September 11. After all, it was only months after the second national airing of “In Plane Site” on Australia’s Network 10, which kicked off a firestorm of debate leading to Federal Labor politician Michael Danby’s demand that the programming director of Network 10 be fired for airing the program. Mr. Danby said that September 11 victims had been killed twice - once by the terrorists and once by Ten. However, Mr. Danby’s highly publicized comments did not seem to dissuade worldwide public interest, as a spokesman for Network 10 stated that a unified public reaction to the film had generated a massive wave of phone calls to station operators praising the network for its airing of the program…. go. read.

I don’t think the CD issue is as cut-and-dried as a lot of activists think.  Remember that there was a lot of damage to Building 7, but the exact amount is not known because there is little or no documented proof other than conflicting recollections of resume workers from that day.  Also there is conflicting scientific analysis of how the building would behave with the vaying amounts of damage it could have received, so the CD issue will always result is a lot of arguments with one side never convincing the other.  Also, the public seems to balk at the idea of a controlled demoltion anyway, so that’s another reason to stay away from it.

Most importantly, proving CD isn’t even necessary to prove the government was involved.. There is an ocean of other evidence, including insider trading, drills on that day, testimony from Government officials, blocked investigations, the list goes on and on..

Please check out this website which summarizes a lot of these other issues.. Also, please spread the word about the website..

http://www.newsofinterest.tv/911.html

Your comments, such as, “don’t really prove anything”, “what can you disprove about them”, “the CD argument makes as much or more sense as the non-CD argument”, “All I need is this case is a draw—and I have it”, and “No one can say for sure what happened” all touch on the fundamental elements underlying human understanding.

I’ll agree straight away that no one can say with absolute certainty what happened.  Technically I am agnostic on the Controlled Demo theory because I realize CD cannot be demostratively disproved with absolute certainty.  However, I believe we know enough to show that the Controlled Demo theory is very unlikely.  I am skeptical.

The criterion that you’ve chosen to justify your belief, namely, “All I need in this case is a draw”, is very generous.  By that criterion, a belief that there is a teapot orbiting the sun is a justified belief.

Since I’ve brought up that famous teapot, and since both sides repeatedly say to the other that, ‘You can’t prove it’, please consider what Bertrand Russell said about teapots in orbit.

“Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than the dogmatists to prove them.  This is, of course, a mistake.  If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.  But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.”

It is possible that the towers were felled by a group of Controlled Demo experts.  But what an unlikely group of experts.

From you description of what the Controlled Demo experts did: They wired the towers to fall straight down because, even though 11 Wall Street is a quarter of a mile away, they feared a slow reopening of the NYSE; They had the expertise for CD, but lacked the expertise for the quicker and easier job of chopping out a few of the ground floors and allowing the towers to fall away from the NYSE; They allowed time to evacuate the towers because they didn’t want to kill too many people; They wired the towers for CD, but felt that only the dramatic flair of slamming 767’s would strike the necessary note of panic; They felt the 767’s provided necessary cover because they didn’t want to risk the chance that the public might not believe that the demolition was carried out by violent extremists even though the public accepted that story with the ‘Santa Claus Sheik’ bombing of Feb. ‘93; While the CD experts were unwilling to risk that the public might not accept that violent extremists had wired the towers for demolition, they were willing to take the extraordinary risks required to wire the towers top-to-bottom for controlled demo while remaining undetected.

Your Controlled Demo experts are very unlikely, self-contradictory characters.  Reductio ad absurdum constitutes a valid argument.

To get to a place where I can believe the CD theory, I must first past through so many unlikelihoods that I find myself on the road from, as Robert Scheer phrased it, “the plausible to the absurd”.

Ken:

Although I realize I may as well be talking to a wall, let me respond to your tirade.

“You are thick.”  No, I am actually somewhat thin for my height.  Seriously, I am college-educated, extremely well-read in a variety of subjects (including hard science, and particularly physics), and have an IQ that would make your head spin.  (Not trying to boast here, just stating a fact).

“You have to prove your theory not just talk about it.”  As noted, I do not have to “prove” ANYTHING.  I merely need to show that the “official story” - the one you believe, uh, without proof… - has holes big enough to…fly an airplane through.

“If you can’t prove it, then you cannot say that is what happened.”  I never said “what happened.”  I am, as admitted, speculating, using the same, and additional, evidence available to the U.S. government and The 9/11 Commission.

“It is a bunch of talk and nothing more.”  Perhaps.  But it sure is interesting…

“Sorry, innuendo and contrived theories without proof are worthless.”  You mean like the one you believe?

“Prove it with concrete evidence.”  I’llk make you a deal: you prove YOURS with concrete evidence, and I’ll prove mine.

“There is none and you are just another radical anarchist who supports any theory which tries to attack the United States of America.”  No, I am not an anarchist.  I probably fall somewhere into democratic socialism.  However, while there is certainly much to criticize the U.S. for, I do not attack it willy-nilly.

“I am sick of your kind. You are a miserable being who lies and distorts reality to serve your own political agenda.”  Actually, I am not miserable at all; I am quite happy, thank you.  Nor do I distort reality - unlike our president who is so far removed from reality that he truly IS delusional.

“Talk all you want.”  Okay.

“I am sure that you must live a real miserable life because of your paranoia & hate.
I am sure you are part of a small group of individual who see nothing good in this great country. You need to leave if you are here and go somewhere else to spread your lies.”

Actually, I lead a rather happy life.  As well, as an evangelical minister (though a moderate one who falls quite to the left of the Religious Right), I harbor neither hate nor paranoia of any sort toward any person or thing.  And I DO see good in the U.S., in many ways.  But that does not mean I should simply turn a blind eye to the bad that we do, both here and around the world.  Indeed, it is your blind patriotism - which is actually a dangerous form of nationalism - that is a much bigger problem than my willingness to criticize our government and, yes, our country, when it does the wrong thing, or causes unnecessary misery here and abroad.

As for leaving here, I have, in fact, seriously considered it, especially after the 2000 election, and again after the 2004 election.  But I stayed nonetheless because it is far more “patriotic” to stay and criticize when necessary) under adverse conditions than it is to “run away” and criticize from afar.

Peace.

Okay, so we have “Ken” insisting that Maani HAS to be able to prove his theory, when Ken can’t prove any of the theories provided to him by the “powers that be”. Then we have Al Wright refusing to concede any room for the controlled demolition theory, except to agree that it doesn’t matter? All the while, at the same time Al applies some bizarre logic in his coming to the concludsion that the CD theory “hurts the 9/11 Truth movement”.  Both of these guys want to limit discourse here, both DON’T get what the info. shared here DOES prove: NO ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE WHAT HAPPENED/NO ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE WHAT DID NOT HAPPEN EITHER. One thing NOT helping is trying to limit any debate on the matter. Stay limited in the scope of thought that YOU are only capable of dealing with inside your heads guys, don’t expect the rest of us to stay behind with you.

“My brothers in war, I love you thoroughly; I am and I was of your kind.  And I am also your best enemy.  So let me tell you the truth!”

“And if you cannot be saints of knowledge, at least be its warriors.  They are companions and forerunners of such sainthood.”

“You should have eyes that always seek an enemy—your enemy.  And some of you hate at first sight.  Your enemy you shall seek, your war you shall wage—for your thoughts.”

I agree with you when you say, “Anyway, CD or no CD; doesn’t matter”, it may have been a coup.  Except that promoting CD undermines support for 911Truth, and impedes our efforts to find out what really happened.

MAANI:

You are thick.
You have to prove your theory not just talk about it.
If you can’t prove it, then you cannot say that is what happened.
It is a bunch of talk and nothing more.
Sorry, innuendo and contrived theories without proof are worthless.
Prove it with concrete evidence.
There is none and you are just another radical anarchist who supports any theory which tries to attack the United States of America.
I am sick of your kind. You are a miserable being who lies and distorts reality to serve your own political agenda.
Talk all you want.
I am sure that you must live a real miserable life because of your paranoia & hate.
I am sure you are part of a small group of individual who see nothing good in this great country. You need to leave if you are here and go somewhere else to spread your lies.

RE: •    Comment #42760 by Ken  on  12/18  at  10:01 pm

”...concrete proof…” — Angel is next.

”...keep these people from leaking…”  — need-to-know cells, well-placed moles and those infamous last words, “Sorry, you know too much.”

“What type of government employees would murder thousands of innocent people who were also American citizens? — none in dedicated service to their oath to the constitution and the citizenry, only a rogue network of mercenaries in service as private contractors, working on a need-to-know basis and recruited from global intelligence agencies: FBI, CIA, NSA, MI-5, MI-6, SAS, SEALS, DELTA, MOSSAD — enemies and traitors to the USA and all nations whose citizens perished at Ground Zero and since in the ensuing War OF Terror; and forget your 19 patsies they simply could not do it.

”...outside private company would never have been trusted…”  — BS, security forces around the world are more and more privatized by the day (drawing from veterans of such agencies as listed above), a burgeoning trend for nearly 2 decades.

”...The free press in this country…”  — BS,  infiltrated and controlled for decades.

”...secret by the large amount of people…”  — e.g.  Final Solution, Manhattan Project, Stars-Wars weaponry you can’t even imagine and upon which no deep throat dares put his mouth.

”...facists who condemn people without a trial and base their evidence on innuendo and contrived evidence not supported by legitimate sources.”  — e.g. Guantanamo.

”...this great democracy we call our home…”  — is being dehumanized and driven to the precipice of its fall from civilized grace by the Starussian, neocon, Strangelove, proto-fascist, Nietzchien madmen in whose service you appear to be working; that is unless you’re playing the other side — trying to elicit even stronger positions of support for 911 Truth. Which is it? Do tell, or is the ambiguity just too much fun? Shame on you. It’s disrespectful of the victims.

And by all means, in their name:
Investigate, indict, prosecute and execute!
Support 911 Truth — End War of Terror!

Ken:

You miss the point.  We do not HAVE to PROVE anything.  All we need do is show that the “official story” leaves numerous unanswered questions - and, indeed, that the “answers” provided by the “evidence” supporting the “official story” (i.e., The 9/11 Commission Report) raise even more questions.

Consider the JFK assassination.  Alternative theorists do not have to PROVE any particular facts; they only need show that the “magic bullet” theory is full of holes, proving that Oswald could not have been the only shooter, thus raising questions that demand answers.

As you may have noticed, not all alternative theorists agree on the specifics of what might have occurred on 9/11, not even CD: the only thing we ABSOLUTELY agree on is that The 9/11 Commission Report is hopelessly incomplete and filled with blatant conflicts of interest, and that the “official story” simply does not hold up under detailed scrutiny.

This does not make us “fascists” (a word that has a definition, despite how often it is misused in anger), but REALISTS who know history - especially about “false flag” operations, and U.S. complicity in those and other illegal “ventures” undertaken by the military and intelligence services.

As an aside, consider the words of Teddy Roosevelt: “To announce that there must be no criticism of the president…is morally treasonable to the American public.”  He also said, “Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.”  As well, the words of Samuel Johnson are apt: “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

As for how a vast conspiracy could possibly be kept “secret,” there are at least four factors that allow for this.  First, not everyone involved in a conspiracy has ALL the facts of the conpiracy; indeed, they may not even know that what they are doing - their piece of the puzzle - fits into a conspiracy.  Second, many of those involved WANT to be involved, because they truly believe the “rightness” of it.  That may sound incredible to you re the murder of 3,000 American citizens by its own government.  However, there are “broad ideals” - far-reaching “future history” - for which some people would see the murder of 3,000 as an “acceptable loss.”  For example, if you knew that killing 10 people would provide a cure for cancer - one that would save MILLIONS of lives - would you “accept” those murders?  How about 100 people, to save millions of lives?  How about a thousand?  YOU and I might not “accept” those losses, but some people would.  Third, did you know that 57 of 100 witnesses to the JFK killing died within two years of that event - all of “natural causes” or “accidents?”  That is historical fact.  So we can assume that some, perhaps many, of those involved in the 9/11 conspiracy - particularly those at the “lowest levels”; i.e., those who would not be “missed” by any except their closest family and friends - have died or will die before they can say anything - if they (and their families) haven’t already been threatened with death if they DO say anything.  Fourth, even if one of the conspirators DID come forward, who would believe them?  After all, YOU are not even willing to believe that a conspiracy is POSSIBLE.  So how would YOU know - really KNOW - that they were telling the truth?

Ultimately, the point is that the “official story,” and the evidence that supports that story (The 9/11 Commission Report), are hopelessly incomplete, if not seriously compromised.  This means that SOMETHING ELSE occurred.  What we are doing here is speculating - yes, speculating, but based on both solid and circumstantial evidence, including photos, videos, print documents and science - as to what the most plausible alternatives are, based on what we know.

Peace.

Some one calling himself “Ken,” who is hated by everyone on this blog, has been repeating lately the theme of “...the large amount of people who were necessary to plan, carry out and cover up this plot of mass murder!”

Yet, despite his own words, he believes that some 20 hijackers, with box cutters, led by an old man hiding some where in Afghanistan and constantly on the run could have carried this sophisticated operation, outmaneuvering and defeating the multi-billion security aparatus of the one super power of the world.

I guess only a bunch of “barbies” would want to be associated with this character called “Ken.” Besides my wish that he could have learned to think logically, I also wish he could have learned punctuation while in high school. Have you noticed his excessive use of the exclamation mark?! Have you noticed his excessive irrational rantings and his excessive rude language against those he can’t reason with on equal footing? Worst yet he insists on his shameful display of his crude and false patriotism. Could he be one of the 9/11 plotters, trying to wrap himself with the flag of false patriotism for disguise?!

Ken,

Methinks you protest too much. This tells me something inside of you is trying to break through. Perhaps it is several truths that are too painful to confront. You have to realize that all of history is filled with scoundrels. America is great not because it has no scoundrels, but because it has, so far at least, had a system to get rid of the scoundrels. That often requires skeptics who don’t trust everything their leaders say and do, but that is how the truth gets uncovered. That doesn’t make them unpatriotic, that makes them guard dogs of democracy.

All you have to do is look at the websites below to see some evidence that you claim isn’t there:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/collapses.html#south

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/thermite.html

People on this forum talk about proof.
No one, and I mean, not one of you have any concrete proof only speculation. None of you examined, or are qualified to make, any determinations based on what you think you saw
on television or heard other people say.
People like to talk about how demolition experts brought these towers down.
Well who are these experts ?
What part of the military did they come from ?
Were they a private demolition company hired by the government ?
How many demolition experts & personnel would be needed to plan and carry out this huge operation ?
How would you keep these people from leaking the real facts to the public at some future date ?
What type of government employees would murder thousands of innocent people who were also American citizens ?
Your contrived conspiracy theory is outrageous !
Never has a 110 story building ever been demolished by a controlled explosion.
The expertise necessary could only be done by a handful of major building demolition outfits or the U.S. military .
An outside private company would never have been trusted to carry out this act of mass murder.
The military also could not have been relied upon to murder thousands of its own American citizens on United States soil !
Never have I heard any major paper or investigative reporter suggest that these buildings were brought down by a controlled explosion !
The free press in this country hated Bush, even before 9/11.  They would have loved to expose anything they knew about a 9/11 government conspiracy to destroy the World Trade Towers !
Only lunatic fringe anti-Bush, anti-Republican, anti-American papers and conspiracy theory people are putting forward these evil plots.
Again, what you claim just could not have been kept a total secret by the large amount of people who were necessary to plan, carry out and cover up this plot of mass murder !
Sorry people, you better come up with hands on concrete evidence before you convict our own elected government from committing mass murder of its own citizens on United States soil !
You sound more like a bunch of facists who condemn people without a trial and base their evidence on innuendo and contrived evidence not supported by legitimate sources.
Most of the commentors on this truthdig site are off the wall radicals who are paranoid about anything having to do with organized anything.
They are anarchists who see any organized group of people , who do not believe as they do, a threat to their survival.
I pity all of you who speak such lies and make false statements to attack, in the eyes of the many degenerate nations of the world, this great democracy we call our home, the United States of America !
God Bless this Great Land of Freedom which has always looked to help those nations & people who wished to live free !

Please take a look at this recently expanded website which summarizes a lot of important issues about the 9/11 attacks, such as past examples of government terror, insider trading, blocked investigations, government officials who have gone public, ect…

http://www.newsofinterest.tv/911.html

one never talked about curious question is, who are the prisoners in guantanamo.  since there is no real war on terror, just media hype and fear mongering, i would speculate that many of the prisoners are witnesses or participants in 911 itself—government witnesses, patsies, moles, whatever.  why the desperate urgency to gut habeous corpus, why the desperate urgency to withhold evidence from the accused, the secret trials, executions.  paranoia is one thing but self protection is another.  i would bet many are potential whistle blowers.

Like the vast majority of Americans, I don’t have a clue what happened at ground zero.

I could be convinced by either side BUT I don’t see any credible evidence either for a what we saw is what we get, or a sinster plot.

One clue if folks are attempting to gain converts, rude disrespectful language alienates.

RE:    •    Comment #42412 by Al Wright  on  12/16  at  12:20 am — ” From Zarathustra’s last supper: “What the mob once learned to believe without reasons—who could overthrow that with reasons?”

>>>>“You should always be such men as are always looking for an enemy — for your enemy” — from Also Sprach Zarathustra

Manni: There is no need to argue with witting propeller heads or witless fools. The strong facts are simple and clear.

1) textbook scenario: inept patsies, protective moles, expert executioners, a compliant media

2) Pentagon & POTUS security stripped

3) “Angel is next” threat

4) POTUS’ capitulation

5) and finally the call to Putin to report US post-9/11 Middle East attack and occupation plan and to warn that Russia had better not interfere.

Many media insiders know all this. “Angle is next,” was even reported by NY Times’ William Safire, but not followed up on.  Virtually none within the corporate media are genuinely free to do so - job-loss threats, or worse, make 9/11Truth the media 3rd rail; but it should not be the political 3rd rail.

Forget the propeller heads, especially those who’d like to make the debate into some sort of allegorical chess match, though it’s curiously fitting; chess is about deception, entrapment and decapitation. Anyway, CD or no CD; doesn’t matter, it was a coup, plain and simple. The rogue network got what it was after: a global war of terror leading to Huntington’s War of Civilizations, an enemy for decades, the powerful myth of Islamo-fascism and overwhelming occupation of Iraq, Afghanistan and the basses in the former Soviets around the Caspian Sea.

The fate of any of the combatants or populations matters nothing to them, only control the oil markets. It’s all about the petrodollar — all in all, supporting the collapsing perto-arms-drug dollar. In the course of things they’ve brought our civilization to the precipice of its very fall. The wholesale dehumanization of their sanctioned torture gulag is antithetical to everything this republic stands for.

These Straussian, neocon madmen must be shown to their cells. Their elitist, warmongering, Nietzschien, superman, proto fascist insanity we have suffered too long. For the sake of our very humanity and for the peace of the entire world we can not afford to suffer them any longer.

Investigate, indict, prosecute and execute!

Support 911Truth - End War of Terror!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9147890225218338952&hl=en

Al and Ken have been hovering around this site lately like guard dogs who have marked their territory and now think they own it. Sorry guys, but you are only setting up a lot of straw men and then shooting them down, as well as ignoring evidence (or which may not be aware of) that undermines your suppositions.

For example, it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans which tower was detonated first if they were both wired. That would be at the whim or internal logic of whoever had his hand on the remote control. And since demolition experts are trained to drop buildings straight down into their footprints, why wouldn’t they do the same on 9/11? Especially if they wanted to ensure the complete destruction of each building and not leave half of each standing.

And Ken, are you aware that workers inside the twin towers reported very strange goings on in both buildings for at least six weeks before 9/11, with areas suddenly declared off-limits, offices being evacuated, strange construction noises and vibrations being heard and felt, and a magnitude of construction-type dust covering furniture and equipment everyday, apparently pouring out through the vents. Are you aware that on the weekend prior to 9/11, both towers were put through an unprecedented power-down? In otherwards, the power was turned off, disabling all the security systems. Very strange indeed for high security buildings. Even stranger - all the security, bomb-sniffing dogs were prohibited from working the towers starting some five days before 9/11. Does that make you just a little bit suspicious?

And how do you account for the many firemen who heard multiple explosions, some outside also seeing multiple flashes in sync with those multiple explosions, with comments that all this looked just like a demolition? How do you explain the multiple whitish squibs shooting out horizontally, always below the descending bottom edge of collapsing debris. All of these phenomena are normal occurrences in demolitions. You can try to explain them away, but that would be ignoring the obvious inference, wouldn’t it. When something looks like a duck and acts like a duck, it usually is a duck, isn’t it?

I will say what I said before, that if you spliced the collapsing towers into a demolition training video without showing the planes hitting, no one would think that it wasn’t a controlled demolition. This is still the most obvious theory as to why the towers collapsed in mere seconds into their footprints. This was the gut reaction of many newsmen and firefighters on the scene, some of whom even stated this on the air or in interviews. You can’t say that controlled demolitions weren’t fully capable of demoishing the towers, you can only argue that it was not logistically viable to rig the buildings. But the evidence I mentioned above, such as the weekend power-down and the prohibition against bomb-sniffing dogs cuts into that argument.

Al:

You said, “CD can’t explain the timing of the towers collapse: 56 minutes vs. 102 minutes post-impact. Non-CD can offer a reasonable accounting. Score -1 for CD, +1 for non-CD.”

As noted more than once, a controlled demolition is just that: CONTROLLED.  I offered one very possible reason for the time difference: i.e., the time it took to evacuate the vast majority of those in the towers.  That would easily account for a time difference.  We are at a draw.

You said, “CD can’t explain the “glowing red” observation of the police helicopter crew. Non-CD can. Score -1 CD, +1 non-CD.”

I do not know to what you refer.  Still, you don’t say how it negates the CD argument.  We remain at a draw.

You said, “CD can’t explain the visible deformation of the towers before they collapsed. Non-CD can. Another -1 CD, and another +1 non-CD.”

No one is claiming that the planes did not visibly deform the towers before they collapsed, or that there was both internal and external damage.  The question is whether that deformation had any causal relationship to the collapses.  You cannot show that it did.  We remain at a draw.

You said, “CD can’t explain why plotters who have already wired the towers for Controlled Demo would bother to arrange for the extra drama of 767’s CD-1, non-CD +0.”

You miss the whole point of the discussion.  If they simply brought down the towers with CD - i.e., no planes - it would have been obvious who was behind it: at vert least, people who had access to the towers, and likely some government involvement.  The whole point of having the planes was to provide a “logical” reason for why the towers fell; i.e., it was easy to “blame” the planes for the collapses.  We remain at a draw.

You said, “CD can’t explain why plotters would take the extra effort to wire the towers to fall straight down, rather than chop out a few of the lower floors and let them fall like very Giant Sequoias. CD -1”

Actually, there is very good reason: they did not want the towers falling on Wall Street, thus causing a long delay in the re-opening of the markets.  Indeed, as we saw, despite the fact that the antenna began tilting sideways - with the expectation that at least part of the building would, in fact, fall “over” rather than “down” - the collapse began “in earnest” just after the antenna teetered.  We remain at a draw.

You said, “So far the tally is CD -5, non-CD +3.  An eight-point spread. What point spread would convince you?”

No, my friend, at best we are at a draw, though I would argue that the CD argument makes as much or more sense than the non-CD argument, given the above.

You end, “The question remains: I know you are intelligent, but are you reasonable?”

I am not only intelligent and reasonable, I am also not thrown by trolls and those who claim the “rightness” of their positions despite solid support therefore.  All I need in this case is a draw - and I have it.

Better luck next time…

Peace.

Al Wrong:  you are doing what many who think they can debunk controlled demolition do.  you present postulates that require logical jumps but don’t really prove anything.  the fact that one bldg. fell before the other means nothing.  the whole thing was done so poorly that it’s inheirant transparency is now acknowledged by 84% of the American population. the slight tilt of the bldgs. prior to imploding is typical of controlled demolitions.  watch “911 Mysteries.”  I can’t imagine that you have read anything by Kevin Ryan of Underwriter’s Labs.  And why bother with airplanes if the bldgs. were demolished?  that question in itself belies your ignorance—and i use that word as the only descriptive term, not as an insult— The airplanes were the entertainment, the attack, the pomp, the visuals, the diversion that provided enough direct fear in everyone sitting at home watching those loops over and over again.  by the time everyone had seen those tapes over and over again they were paralyzed with fear. would the effect have been the same if the buildings had suddenly imploded?  Of course not.  WTC 7 did.  You have to be a religious zealot to actually believe that anything other than explosives brought down those bldgs, especially wtc7.  Christ.  Let’s get off this board and let the nay sayers have it and find a 911 truth group nearest you and stop wasting our time (i should talk)  Al—(ken is a worthless and obvious plant) have you seen any of the dvd’s and which ones and what can you disprove about them???

Comment #42225 mentioned:
BOSTON AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER SAYS: 911 INSIDE JOB

An interview with him is now on google video—listen at

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9147890225218338952&hl=en

Sure you have lost the Controlled Demo debate.  The only trouble is that you don’t realize it.  If it were chess, you’d be checkmated and wondering how it happened.  You just don’t recognize mate when you see it.

CD can’t explain the timing of the towers collapse: 56 minutes vs. 102 minutes post-impact. Non-CD can offer a reasonable accounting. Score -1 for CD, +1 for non-CD.

CD can’t explain the “glowing red” observation of the police helicopter crew. Non-CD can. Score -1 CD, +1 non-CD.

CD can’t explain the visible deformation of the towers before they collapsed. Non-CD can. Another -1 CD, and another +1 non-CD.

CD can’t explain why plotters who have already wired the towers for Controlled Demo would bother to arrange for the extra drama of 767’s CD-1, non-CD +0

CD can’t explain why plotters would take the extra effort to wire the towers to fall straight down, rather than chop out a few of the lower floors and let them fall like very Giant Sequoias. CD -1

So far the tally is CD -5, non-CD +3.  An eight-point spread.

What point spread would convince you?

From Zarathustra’s last supper: “What the mob once learned to believe without reasons—who could overthrow that with reasons?”

The question remains: I know you are intelligent, but are you reasonable?

To Al Wright #42216;
Your comment is valid-we can only speculate about the clearly observed weird destruction of three massive skyscrapers. WTC 1 and 2 blow up identically, with symmetric explosions on four sides. There is no “pancaking”. Probably about half of the destroyed buildings turned into a fine, alkaline, deadly powder, but there seems to be no conventional explosive that can vaporize glass, drywall, computers and human bodies. Although 20,000 small pieces of bodies were recovered, much of the DNA cannot be “sequenced”. Over 1000 bodies were totally missing.
I proposed this speculation for lack of an obvious cause of this unique and horrible event. I recently learned the steel girders had been coded, so each of these should have been examined and photographed to reconstruct the collapses. There were reports that at least some of the girders showed they had been vaporized, but thousands of pieces of paper were only slightly charred. There were reports of melted vehicles. I suggest the DVD “9/11” by the Naudet brothers which shows the immediate after effects of the explosions. I also suggest a simple experiment. Put a small rock and small piece of concrete into a Microwave for 20 or 30 seconds (be careful!) and note the temperature of each. Also, you might check the so-called “Spire” which seems to literally turn to powder.
Thanks for the input.

Maani:

Talk about something with some real proof instead of innuendo & paranoia about government involvement.
You proved nothing to me or any reasonable person !
The damaged buildings fell due to impact caused by large commercial planes slamming into them at over 500 miles per hour. They took out support beams and warped other beams. The floor trusses gave way and the concrete floors pancaked down one on top of the other. Picking up momentum as the weight of each floor piled up going down.
As for demolition teams bringing down WTC 1 & 2, that is ridiculus.
It takes weeks of planning to correctly set charges.
Buildings are first internally stripped or gutted and furniture removed.
It was impossible for demolition experts to have planted charges on each floor below the impact zones after the planes hit. There just was not enough time.
Also, never before has such large structures been demolished by demolition experts !
Such structures would have to be taken down by mechanical means.
That is a fact.
So the almost perfect take down was due to the structural design of the buildings and nothing else.
That will be the facts until proven differently !
You people are a lot of hot air. You have presented no proof of your conspiracy theory.
You cannot possibly know how damaged the buildings were internally after impact. It takes months of on hand observation to determine cause & effect.
Based on the remains of the steel beams it was determined that impact and heat were the cause of the collapse.
You say it was planned by Bush & demolition experts did it. So prove it to me with some concrete evidence or shut up.

Al:

Uh…I don’t remember the pro-CD people losing the controlled demolition debate.  Or are you simply engaging in an Orwellian attempt to create revisionist history?

Ken:

I did not say there were no planes.  What I was implying was that the entire event was a set-up.

As for “proving” to you that the impacts of the planes alone could not have the necessary kinetic energy to bring down the buildings, this has been explained to you ad nauseam by myself and others vis-a-vis (i) the relative burning temperature of diesel fuel vs. the temperature at which steel melts, (ii) the unassailable laws of physics, and (iii) the sheer impossibility of a building (make that THREE buildings) collapsing at free fall speed without SOMETHING “removing” the structural supports of the UNDAMAGED floors at just the right times to permit such a free fall collapse.

Feel free to keep saying the same things, making the same statements, asking the same questions.  But don’t claim that we haven’t heard you, or that we haven’t provided an enormous amount of evidence to support our claims.

Peace.

Maani:

Bottom line: Towers were hit by large commercial aircraft at over 500 miles per hour which were fully loaded with jet fuel.
The buildings collapsed and 2,700+ people died.
That was not an illusion, that was real !
So now you tell me the above did not happen ?
I guess the planes were a mirage created by some projector in the sky ?
No, the planes were not a distraction, they brought the buildings down.
Prove to me that it was impossible for these planes to have enough destructive kinetic energy to bring the towers down ?

BOSTON AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER SAYS: 911 INSIDE JOB
ARTICLE EDITED DUE TO SPACE LIMITATIONS. CHECK http://WWW.INFOWARS.COM

Knew people in FAA on day of hijackings who said intercept procedures should have been enacted as normal

Prison Planet | December 14, 2006
Paul Joseph Watson

A former Boston Center air traffic controller has gone public on his assertion that 9/11 was an inside job and that Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon tracked three of the four flights from the point of their hijacking to hitting their targets. In an astounding telephone interview, Robin Hordon claims air traffic controllers have been ignored or silenced to protect the true perpetrators of 9/11.

After having acquired a background in aviation, Hordon underwent rigorous FAA training to become an air traffic controller and was posted to Boston Center where he worked for eleven years. He did not work at Boston Center when 9/11 occurred but still knows people that did who concur with his conclusions. In comparing the stand down of air defense on 9/11 and what should have occurred according to standard operating procedure, he quickly concluded on the very afternoon of the attacks that they could represent nothing other than an inside job.

“I know people who work there who confirmed to me that the FAA was not asleep and the controllers could do the job, they followed their own protocols,” he stated.

Hordon emphasized that the debate has deliberately been channeled by NORAD and the government to focus on reactions to hijackings, when the real issue is the emergency condition of the aircraft well before a hijacking is even confirmed.

He went on to explain how as soon as the hijacking of Flight 11 was confirmed at around 8:24am, the entire system, from every FAA center coast to coast, to the Pentagon, to the President were informed and knew of the hijacking.

“The system now had to make some phone calls and call up Rummy’s Pentagon and Rummy’s Pentagon is the one that would then make the decision.”

“Well, Rummy’s Pentagon on American 11 didn’t answer the phone, neither 175, didn’t answer the phone and they didn’t answer the phone until they were absolutely embarrassed into answering the phone somewhere along the flight of United 93 and American 77 - first formal contact was at this particular time,” said Hordon.

Hordon underscored the fact that after the confirmed hijacking of Flight 11, the entire FAA system would have been on full alert and obsessively watching the skies for any unusual activity, and that such activity as the hijacking of Flight 77 would have been immediately reported to supervisors instantaneously, as well as being continually tracked.

“If the air traffic controller were going by emergency procedures which he is trained to do, he would have reached out directly to ADC (NORAD) and say what do you see?” said Hordon.

Hordon debunked the recent Vanity Fair piece that whitewashed NORAD’s response as a consequence of confusion and the supposition that NORAD needs exact flight coordinates to enact any kind of response, and that the planes were supposedly invisible to radar and couldn’t be tracked properly.

“Further information indicates later the NORAD radars had it tracked….the bottom line of the story is that all of those aircraft were always tracked all the time by the FAA air traffic control centers,” said Hordon, pointing out that information showing air traffic controllers tried insistently to alert military command structures is being locked down because it points to finger of responsibility to Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon, who were also tracking all the aircraft from the point of hijacking to the impact on their targets.

“W
Hordon ended by saying that only with the testimony from the dozens of flight controllers who have been silenced or ignored would the true story about who carried out 9/11 begin to emerge.

Many strange events warrant further investigation.

On Strangeness #6, however, I believe you are on the wrong track.  Strangeness #6 is a variant of the violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics argument: Instead of additional chemical energy, you postulate additional microwave energy.

You certainly don’t suffer from a lack of imagination, but do you think a Microwave Weapon is likely?

You were very close to the most likely mechanism of destruction when you mentioned pyroclastic flow.

BTW, Controlled Demolition campers, notice how you lost the Controlled Demo debate: You were out reasoned.

Ken:

Funny you should mention magicians vis-a-vis 9/11.  You are obviously referring to what is called “misdirection.”  The following is from a paper I am writing on 9/11.  I started writing it about three months ago:

“A magician can make an elephant (or, perhaps more ironically, an airplane) disappear in plain sight of hundreds of people.  Or he can take the watch off your wrist without you even knowing it.  And Hollywood regularly creates amazing special effects – from huge pyrotechnic displays to futuristic cities, from Superman flying to King Kong climbing, from massive battle scenes between Men, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs to massive battle scenes in space between dozens of alien races – that boggle our minds and are unexplainable unless we know the technical details.”

“Although the term “smoke and mirrors” is often used to describe these and other “tricks,” they are actually accomplished through something called “misdirection” – when the perpetrator of a trick is able to get you to pay attention to what he wants you to see in order to divert your attention from where and how the action is actually taking place: the magician’s other hand, the almost invisible wires, the blue screen, etc.”

“So what did we actually see on 9/11?  Is there anyone who was not so caught up in the “shock and awe” of those events – who was not so deeply affected by what was occurring “in the moment” – that he or she would have had the presence of mind to really look at it?  Given the almost instantaneous psycho-emotional trauma of those events, is there anyone who would have had the ability to consciously “step back” and look beyond the misdirection to see the “other hand,” the almost invisible wires, the blue screen?”

—-

It is clear, Ken, that it is actually YOU, and not us, who have been fooled by the misdirection of the “magicians” behind 9/11.  It is YOU who refuses to take a second look at what occurred, rather than relying SOLELY on what you THINK you saw.  Indeed, you have stated ad nauseam that you were there, that you saw it with your own eyes.  Perhaps, Ken, you were TOO close: perhaps you too were caught up in the “instantaneous emotional trauma” of the moment, and could not really SEE what you were looking at.

Troll or no, if you are not willing to at very least CONSIDER what all of us are saying, and take a second look - by doing some intensive research into the various alternative theories of the events of 9/11, then all you will be doing is repeating the same few lines over and over, and thinking that you have the one and only viewpoint that is correct.  If so, what a sad, myopic life you must lead.

Peace.

THE STRANGE DAYS OF 9/11
Many thanks to Robert Scheer and this “Dig”.

Strangeness #1. The longtime business and personal relationship between the Bush and Bin Laden family has been well documented. As far back as 1977, the Bin Laden family were doing business with the Bush family. This also included business ties with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, which laundered money from Drugs and weapons smuggling. George Bush Sr. even met with Bin Laden’s brother on the morning of 9/11.

Strangeness #2. The warnings given to Bush and other top US officials concerning the Bin Laden threat were ignored. FBI agents reported the unusual behavior of Arabs taking flight training. George Tenet CIA Chief, testified to the 9/11 Commission that he (Tenet) warned Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and John Ashcroft about an attack against the United States by Al Qaeda during the summer of 2001. See Woodward’s “State of Denial”. In fact Rice, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft denied or downplayed this warning, along with an attack against Bin Laden that Tenet proposed. On August 6, 2001, George W. Bush received the memo “Bin Laden Determined To Strike In US”. He did nothing but continue the longest presidential vacation in our history.

Strangeness #3. The head of Pakistan ISI, their espionage agency, gave the 9/11 hijacker, Mohammed Atta, $100,000 shortly before 9/11/2001. There can be no other explanation for this terrorist financing other than Pakistan committed an Act of War against the United States.

Strangeness #4. After 9/11 all commercial aviation was suspended, except for at least 160 Saudi Arabians including members of the Bin Laden family. They were secretly flown out of the US even though the FBI wanted to question many of these potential suspects.

Strangeness #5. Richard Sheirer, Director of the Office of Emergency Management, abandoned the OEM offices in WTC 7 when the South Tower was hit by the second jet airliner. OEM’s and Sheirer’s job was to provide support during emergencies. But Sheirer deserted his post and ran away like a scared rabbit from the undamaged WTC 7. WTC 7 was being evacuated after the North Tower was hit and before the South Tower was hit. But the employees in the South Tower were told to return to work. Did Sheirer give this order? Or was it given by Marvin Bush, George Bush’s brother, who was in charge of WTC security?

Strangeness #6. The destruction of the Twin Towers and WTC 7 was not possible, even with “controlled demolition” using conventional explosives. All three skyscrapers were literally vaporized, including concrete, desks, computers, glass and human bodies. Only 300 intact bodies were found, but twenty thousand body parts were recovered. The disintegrated structures produced a blast wave, a “pyroclastic flow” like that from an exploding volcano. This deadly toxic cloud has been proven deadly to the Police, Firefighters and the other 40,000 rescue workers at the destroyed Twin Towers. Some exotic, unknown weapon was used. What was it? A new weapon that has been revealed and has been promised to be used against crowds, utilizes microwaves. Microwaves heat water and this weapon against humans heats the water in the body. This causes intense pain within a few seconds. Concrete contains water. Could the weapon used on 9/11 been some sort of “Microwave Bomb”?

Strangeness #7. Forensic analysis of a crime scene with 2700 casualties was prohibited by the Federal Government. The evidence was removed quickly so the cause of the collapses could not be determined scientifically. The remaining steel was sent to China, as if it was something to be ashamed of. This evidence should have been analyzed and then afterwards it should have been used to make a Memorial. What a disgrace and insult to the victims and survivors! This coverup and destruction of evidence, as much as anything, proves 9/11 was an inside job.