By Maani, January 1 at 12:40 pm #

“I have recently heard that the battle of Dien Bien Phu (1954) was a French “false flag” operation in which the French deliberately air-bombed their own special forces in order to have an excuse to pull out of Vietnam.

Can anyone shed light on this theory?”

The PBS has a relatively accurate depiction of Vietnam the 10,000 day war” which airs Saturday’s at 6:30 AM in the Eastern United States. (check local listings) It is a doucmentary complete with film footage of the actual events. 

The French did not need a false flag event to leave Vietnam. Their people were tired of the endless drain of monetary resources, and returning dead.

Eisenhower began bailing the French out as soon as he took office. By 1954, the US was paying 80% of the costs of that war. At the time we were the sole power able to fight a continuing war…. AND, let’s face it (finally) the Viet Minh were just far more committed than some far away foreign power. Dien Bien Phu was a rout pure and simple. the French got their asses handed to them by the committed locals who gained the higher ground. If you doubt this check out the satellite data on the area surrounding Dien Bien Phu!

Those hills (above the French fire bases) are dense jungle, and the colonials believed them to be of no use to the Viet Minh…. they were wrong. Add to this the fact that the monsoon season had just begun, and you see that the French couldn’t walk and chew gum at the same time….

“...the mainstream press…”

Is that the Enquirer or the Globe?

Hey, everybody - have you heard the news?  It seems that the assassination of Benazir Bhutto was carried out by…Al Qaeda!  Yup!  The all-purpose bogeyman is trotted out yet again!  So tell me, kiddies, can you spell “never-ending war on terror propaganda?”

LOOSE NUKES SCARE 0:35
Air Force Secretary MICHAEL WYNNE talks about the “mistaken” flight of nuclear warheads across the country in August.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/10/19/sot.wynne.loose.nukes.cnn

Air Force Secretary MICHAEL WYNNE:  “Nearly two months ago, ‘a series of’, ‘apparent errors’, led to a breakdown, in munitions handling procedures, and resulted in our, improper and unauthorised transfer, of six weapons.  This was ‘an unexceptable mistake’ (so shouldn’t Wynne resign? Should automatically be sacked), and a clear deviation from our exacting standards.  We hold ourselves accountable, to the American people, and want to ensure, proper corrective action, has been taken.” 

NUCLEAR WARHEAD ACCOUNTABILITY 2:00
Air Force officers to be fired, and others face possible criminal charges after mishandling nuclear warheads. 
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/19/loose.nukes/index.html?iref=newssearch#cnnSTCVideo

“For 36 hours no one knew the weapons were outside Air Force safeguards that are supposed to be failsafe. ... Among the questions Air Force investigators looked at was ‘a waiver granted’ to store the ‘live’ nuclear weapons in the same bunker at Minot [Air Force Base in North Dakota] as missiles with dummy warheads, leading to the mistake.  Who authorised the waiver, and why?”

Seems very sinister. A practice run for another false flag op? Highly probable.

ADM. MIKE MULLEN (JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN):  “Certainly, being at a point where we can assure everybody that we have control of these weapons, in a very assured way, is where we, is where we absolutely have to be.” 

Comforting.

Air Force officers relieved of duty over loose nukes
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/19/loose.nukes/index.html?iref=newssearch

“A six-week probe into the mistaken flight of nuclear warheads across the country uncovered a “lackadaisical” attention to detail in day-to-day operations at the air bases involved in the incident, an Air Force official said Friday (10/19/07).”

“Our extensive, six-week investigation found that this was ‘an isolated incident’ and that the weapons never left the custody of airmen—were never unsecured—but clearly this incident is unacceptable to the people of the United States and to the United States Air Force.”—Maj. Gen. Dick Newton, assistant deputy chief of staff for operations.

“Relieved of duty were ... Newton didn’t name any of the officers, but Col. Bruce Emig had been the commander of the 5th Bomb Wing at Minot.”

“A number of other personnel—“under 100,” Newton said, including the entire 5th Bomb Wing at Minot—have lost their ‘certification to handle sensitive weaponry’.”  Ooh,—“lost their ‘certification to handle sensitive weaponry’.”

“The matter will be referred to an Air Force convening authority to find out whether there’s enough evidence to bring charges or any other disciplinary action against any personnel, Newton said.”

Meanwhile:  “Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne called the incident “an unacceptable mistake and a clear deviation for our exacting standards.” Ho-hum.

“Wynne has convened a ‘blue-ribbon panel’ to review all of the Air Force’s security procedures and adherence to them.  That panel is to report back on January 15.”  (Presumably, 2008.)

“The bomber carried six nuclear warheads on ‘air-launched cruise missiles’, but the warheads should have been removed from the missiles before they were attached to the B-52.”

Merry Christmas Maani & All.

Sam:

Re the nuclear weapon transport incident, it is instructive to note that over 70 people were canned for this.  70!  Yet not ONE SINGLE PERSON has been fired for the 9/11 attacks, either for negligence, incompetence or malfeasance.  In fact, at least two (and I think three) high-level people who at least should have known more, and might well have been complicit, were given the Medal of Freedom!!

Peace.

Douglas:

“...when the NEXT “Pearl Harbor-like event” actually occurs, uhh!” (Post #122188)

Putting two and two together, when this following story came over the airwaves (Sep 6, 2007, though it seemed more recent), again it backs up what Webre is forecasting: a very probable nuclear strike on US soil.

“Air Force investigates mistaken transport of nuclear warheads” - Thu September 6, 2007
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/05/loose.nukes/index.html

However they assure us:

“A military official told CNN there was no nuclear risk to public safety because the weapons were not armed. Officials believe that if the plane had crashed or the missiles somehow had fallen off the wings, the warheads would have remained inert and there would have been no nuclear detonation, though conventional explosive material in the warhead could have detonated.”

Nukes flown across U.S.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/05/loose.nukes/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

“This is unprecedented; nobody remembers another instance like this.”

Doug:

Sorry to upset you…LOL.  I promise never again to show you the ugly underbelly of our cult(ure) of personality, celebrity-obsessed, small-minded, narrow society.  LOL.

Peace.

Whoa!  Scary!  This is what our democracy, our society has been reduced to.  The following is an actual excerpt - not a parody - from the Regis & Kelly show the other day.  As you watch, consider how many people tune in to them each morning (in the many, many millions) and how many people even KNOW who Amy Goodman is, much less tune into Democracy Now.

Yikes!

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2007/12/20/regis_philbin_watches_democracy_now

Alex Jones’ false-flag terrorism alert mentioned on FOX News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GCWPbhUB9s&mode=related&search;Alex Jones Predicts 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtOFudmHG8&feature=related

Alfred Webre: “9/11, martial law.  ‘Martial law’ means ‘military government’.  Military government is when ordinary government is replaced by military government.  A matrix of martial law legislation, and executive orders of the Bush administration, is now in place, for the abolition of constitutional democracy, the relocation, incarceration, and depopulation of the North American public, and the illegal expropriation of its property.  This matrix is designed, to be activated by a 9/11-style false flag state-terror attack, against a major urban centre in the US, and/or abroad, possibly using nuclear, bioweapons, including the Avian Flu, or advanced exotic weapons, such as ‘directed energy weapons’.”

(Webre’s the last speaker on the ticket; starts at the 55:30 min mark.)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8857832629715387909&q=Jim+Fetzer,+Cooper+Union&total=20&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

This guy Stephen Lendman is saying the exact same thing:

“—a national space policy as part of the goal for “full spectrum dominance” over all land, surface and sub-surface sea, air, space, electromagnetic spectrum and information systems to deter any domestic or foreign threat or challenge to our global hegemony; and,

There’s one other crucially important combined NSPD-HSPD:

NSPD-51/HSPD-20 on April 4, 2007 - National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive

This is a combined directive from the White House and Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to establish “Continuity of Government (COG)” procedures under a “Castastrophic Emergency” defined as follows:

“any incident (such as a terrorist attack), regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the US population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions.”

Now much of Alex Jones’s claims in Endgame don’t seem anywhere near as outlandish to my way of thinking.

Re: #121807 by Maani on 12/21 at 9:40 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Police State America - A Look Back and Ahead” by Stephen Lendman, Global Research, December 17, 2007

Maani, even though I’ve only had time to read up to page 4 (cut & pasted article into Word) this clearly confirms everything that Webre is saying and arguing, so surely it is “vital” that he is backed along with Loren Moray in establishing this “International Citizens 911 War Crimes Tribunal, to be convened under the jurisdiction of the Kuala Lumpur International War Crimes Tribunal established in February 2007 as a permanent citizens tribunal by the Perdana Global Peace Organisation chaired by Tun, Dr Marhatir Bin Mohammed, former prime minister of Malaysia (1981–2003), who is the first prominent world leader to take up the depleted uranium radiation issue.”  (About 06:30 minutes into the video link below.)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4386908535098033726&q=webre+tribunal&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Good article Maani, but don’t forget to have a good look at:

#120662 by gutsf on 12/16 at 8:09 pm (1 comments total)

http://www.GetUpToSpeedFast.com/911/

Some very good reading/watching there as well.

All:

Absolutely must-read article:

http://www.globalresearch.ca:80/index.php?context=va&aid=7622

Peace.

From 5 years ago but still relevant:

Dr. Michael Parenti: “Terrorism, Globalism and Conspiracy”
http://www.workingtv.com:80/parenti.html

Parenti:  “I’d like to start with the most important one of those three. ... Most important of those three, which is globalisation. Globalisation is an attempt to extend corporate monopoly control, over the entire globe, over every national economy, over every local economy, over every life.  It does this by treating international corporate property rights, and international corporate investment rights, as supreme – as taking precedence over all other rights, including our democratic sovereignty.  You know, globalisation is being treated by its proponents, as a natural, inevitable process.  First we had, local economies, then they naturally became regional economies, and then national, and then international, and now one big global economy.  It just happens that way.  In fact, there’s nothing inevitable about it, and there’s certainly nothing natural about it. ‘Globalisation is being forced upon us through a series of secretive international trade agreements’.  Globalisation really, when you look at it historically, in a century’s old context, is a future variant of imperialism.  Imperialism is that system which the leading dominant elements in one country expropriate the land, the labour, the resources, the capital ... of other peoples of other countries.  And imperialism, imperialism itself, is an expansionist form of capitalism.”

How’s it tired in with 911?  Listen or watch the clips:
http://www.workingtv.com/parenti.html

Sam:

Re the quotes, lots of people say lots of things, not all of them serious, and certainly not all of them implementable or intended to be implemented.

Second, there is a HUGE difference between attempts to stabilize the earth’s population (what used to be called Zero Popoulation Growth, or ZPG) - which is what Buffett, Gates, Turner et al actually support - and “depopulation,” or any attempt to actually “kill off” a percentage of the earth’s population.

As for attempts to control how many children people have, no matter how real this is or might be it is simply unenforceable: people will have children if and when they want to, unless there are actually laws against it (and even that might not stop them): and no such laws exist - even in China, despite Jones’ assertion to the contrary.  Nor, by the way, was China successful in implementing the policy (not law) broadly when they tried to enforce it.

As an aside, I think we would actually all agree that overpopulation is among the most serious problems on the planet, and a threat to the continued existence of the human race vis-a-vis available resources.  I am not in any way suggesting that I support any particular concept here, only that Jones is playing fast and loose with words (“depopulation” as opposed to “population control” or other concept) and images.  And he continues to mix facts with demonstrably provable errors and/or hoaxes, which is unacceptable.

For example, the science is unclear re whether the sun is getting hotter.  The measure for this is called Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) and the scientific data that underlies TSI are called ACRIM I and ACRIM II.  According to this data, there is still some question as to whether the sun is or is not getting hotter.  HOWEVER, even if it is, it is only doing so by a tiny degree: .036 percent.  And according to the majority of news articles (both mainstream and alternative) on this, this increase might EXACERBATE problems of global warming, but is NOT CAUSING them.  This is confirmed by NASA, among others.

As well, Jones is COMPLETELY wrong regarding Mars and other planets.  Since Mars rotates on an axis and revolves around the sun, it has seasons just like earth does.  And the polar caps melt EVERY TIME Mars experiences the equivalent of its “summer,” which it is doing now.  And the polar caps re-constitute when Mars experiences the equivalent of its “winter.”  As for other planets, according to NASA (among others), “Warming on another planet would be an interesting coincidence, but it would not necessarily be driven by the same causes.”

I am also outraged at Jones for two specifics.  First, his running roughshod over Rothschild’s responses.  Think what you will of the Rothschilds in general, Jones’ dismissals were unfounded and rude.  Second, his claim that the Gates’ work was “passed off as helping poor children.”  In point of fact, the Gates’ are doing more to STOP diseases that kill millions of children - including malaria et al - than anyone else on the planet.

Re the “Georgia Guidestones,” I’d have to say that I heartily support all but the first.  Hope that doesn’t make me a proponent of the New World Order.  LOL.

Finally, if the “powers that be” (at least in the U.S.) are attempting “depopulation” measures, then can you explain why Madison Avenue and the corporate media - both of which are clearly part of “the system” - sell everything on…sex?  If they do not want people having children - which, I understand, requires sex (LOL) - then why would they push sex so hard on the general public?  And don’t tell me they support “protected” sex, since you hear NOTHING about contraception anymore.

Peace.

Maani, getting back to an earlier post, “#120054 by Maani on 12/13 at 5:07 pm”, in Pt.2 you said:

“WWF. How anyone could connect the founding of the World Wildlife Fund – an organization devoted to conservation, research and restoration of the natural environment – with something nefarious like the New World Order stretches credibility to new extremes: even bad people do good things once in a while, and if one or more of the founders of the WWF was of “questionable” character, this does not mean the organization has some ulterior motive.” 

The question remains why would founding member of the WWF, Prince Philip of England (the ‘unquestionable’ one then if you wish) make such a comment:

“In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation.” – Prince Philip, reported by Deutsche Press Agentur (DPA), August 1988

Why would Ted Turner say in an Audubon Magazine interview: “A total world population of 250-300 million people. A 95% decline from the present levels, would be ideal.”

Why would Dr Eric Pianka say: “And I actually think the world will be much better when there’s only 10 or 20 percent of us left.”

Alex Jones ENDGAME part 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co7aIx85rWg&NR=1

Know of any websites that discredit these quotes? And importantly, what are “The Georgia Guidestones” about? Apparently they’re inscribed with something to the effect in three languages or something:

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.
10.Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature.
http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

Any idea what all this is about? And when you end your post: 

“So I would not put too much stock in the two reports* - despite how “serious” they sound.  At least not yet.”

“At least not yet.”? By the time the vast majority of Americans, Canadians and Mexicans wake up it’ll all be over red rover.

“In DC. the 911 coup is an open secret.” - #51597 by Jackie T. Gabel

John Anger and Jojo, good links.

*“THE AMERO” IS REAL; I HAVE ONE TO PROVE IT! UNITED STATES, CANADA AND MEXICO TO BE MERGED INTO SINGLE NEW ENTITY NAMED NORTH AMERICAN UNION!
http://www.halturnershow.com/AmeroCoinArrives.html

**PREMEDITATED MERGER - North American Union driver’s license created
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57502

Jojo:

Well…

It is unlikely that any new minting by the U.S. would be in gold.  And even if it were, there is already plenty of gold for that purpose.  But, as you know, gold has not been the underlying “value” of the U.S. dollar for some time; we unpegged the dollar from the gold standard decades ago.

As well, I question the claim that there was over “$167 billion” in gold under WTC.  The two largest gold repositories in the U.S. are the Federal Reserve in NYC (~$125 billion) and Ft. Knox (~$118 billion). I find it difficult in the extreme to believe that there was MORE gold under the WTC than in either of these caches.  This is not to say that there was not an awful lot of gold (and that it’s whereabouts, purposes and holders remain unknown), but methinks they dost exaggerate just a tad… (As Sam might say, this is where “intuition” comes in; i.e., whether something “feels” right.  I obviously cannot PROVE it, but the idea that there was more gold under the WTC than in the two largest repositories in the world just doesn’t jibe.)

Also, if OPEC is seeking to peg oil to a currency other than the dollar (which it is), it is BEYOND unlikely that they will peg it to a BRAND NEW currency - which (if it is) would be instituted at least partly because the dollar HAS become so weak, and is thus going to at very least BEGIN as an even WEAKER currency.

BTW, that looks like an excerpt from the revised )third?) edition of Loose Change, which I have not seen.  Looks good.

Peace.

Maaani—-The missing gold from 911WTC attacks-!
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/238.html

Check it out—Gold stolen to be used for the new UsMexCan mintage ?
America needs a new currancy because Israel demands now that we pay their Welfares checks in Euros. The nerve of them . I bet they know who got the gold bricks !

Sam:

I want to give you a perfect example of what happens when one doesn’t do one’s own research.

Here are two links I want you to see, re the North American Union and the Amero.  Take the time to read the links before you scroll down to my comments.  It should only take you a few minutes for both.

http://www.halturnershow.com/AmeroCoinArrives.html

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57502

Read those first, then scroll down…
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Okay.  I’m sure you are all riled up now.  And feel vindicated, and expect an apology from me.  (LOL) Nope.  Because both of these are hoaxes.  And I went and did a great deal of real sleuthing on this because it did seem awfully strong.

Here is what I found out.

The designer of the coin, Daniel Carr, has been designing “mock” coins for many years.  As well, ALL of the coins he strikes have the “D” (which Turner claims “proves” it was struck at the Denver mint) because Carr lives in…Denver (and the government does not have a “copyright” on the “D”.)  Indeed, the “Amero” coin looks EXACTLY like the coins Carr has been creating for about five years.

As well, I checked his website on WHOIS and found that, contrary to Turner’s claim that it “went up in a couple of days,” Carr’s website was created in 2005; i.e., he was clearly selling mock coins (ALL of which have the “D”) for AT LEAST two years on the website (and probably for a few years prior by other means).  Here are links to Carr’s site and bio:

http://www.dc-coin.com/
http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/resume.html

As for the claimed North Carolina NAU (North American Union) drivers license, there is absolutely ZERO corroborating evidence on this claim.  As well, the writer of the article, Jerome Corsi, worked with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (not exactly known for their honesty…), and is under investigation by Media Matters for America (a left-center media watch group co-founded by Eric Alterman) for making anti-Islamic, anti-Catholic, anti-semitic and anti-homosexual comments on various forum threads.  Corsi has a horrible reputation as a journalist, having been accused of plagiarism and false authorship, among other things.

So I would not put too much stock in the two reports - despite how “serious” they sound.  At least not yet.

Peace.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/237.html
Alex Jones interviews Dean Haglund

This is a fascinating interview for many reasons.

Three that jump out are:

1. The clip of a television drama written in 2000 and broadcast in 2001 (before 9/11) that described a government terror attack on the World Trade Center using a hijacked plane. The motivation: to increase arms sales.

Shot in March of 2000. Written in January of 2000.

2. The routine canceling of financially successful programs that are critical of the government

3. The CIA’s program of sending fake psychics to Hollywood parties to develop relationships with producers, directors and actors to see what projects they’re working on before they’re publicly announced.

Who owns you Americans?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&NR=1

#51597 by Jackie T. Gabel on 2/04 at 1:28 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Changes in so-called progressive media direction and numerous MSM limited hangouts (books by Woodward, Lance, Drumheller, et al), point to this:  In DC. the 911 coup is an open secret. The scramble is on to rein in the madmen without blowing the coverup, exploding a constitutional crisis and precipitating a global financial meltdown, all of which is inevitable.

“But, now more than ever, putting on the pressure is critical. The madmen must be stopped before they start WWIII.

“Support 911Truth - End War of Terror
Investigae, indict, prosecute and execute!”

The problem with that is even if you do prosecute and execute “the madmen” the ruling oligarchy simply recruit a new lot practically overnight.  But Webre is on the right track when he says:

“...if the war criminal wants to work back in, and help restore, the environment, the community, that’s fine, and stop the [de]population and genocide, transform our energy priorities, transform the permanent war economy, to a space preservation treaty ... establishing sustainable economic development, our own economic institutions, so that we can achieve escape velocity, from the matrix,” there just might be some hope.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8857832629715387909&q=Jim+Fetzer,+Cooper+Union&total=20&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

Sam:

We could play the “my sources vs. your sources” game from now until the cows come home (Mooooo!  LOL).

Instead, let me just make a two-part statement that covers what I really want to say here.

First, while “instinct” can certainly play a part, I repeat (again…LOL) that it should not replace good old-fashioned research.  When I research something, I look at a minimum of six or seven websites (or other sources) that deal with, or at least mention, the particular person, place, thing, claim, etc.; i.e., I cross-reference a number of sources - some neutral, some that support my view, some that do not.  (It actually does not take that long to do this, which is why I was able to determine so quickly that errors were made by Webre and Jones.) By using this method, I am usually able to get a good sense of where the “truth” (or at least the most likely truth) is.  Is it an infallible method?  Nope.  But it is a good one which generally leads to more “solid” conclusions, at least where “facts” (as opposed to “instinct”) are concerned.

Second, re Webre et al, all I will say is this.  He - and others like Ickes, Jones et al - all have good and supportable claims to make and things to say. But when people who have legitimate - and sometimes important - claims to make and things to say ALSO make patently ridiculous claims (we are all actually reptiles; Britain controls the U.S.; Shimon Peres murdered a U.S. senator; etc.) and say things that are either demonstrably untrue or simply “over-reaching,” then their credibility suffers across the board, and it makes it that much harder to determine which of their more “solid” claims/statements are such WITHOUT doing some real gumshoe research.

I hope that more clearly defines my position here.

Peace.

Sam:

When you ask me to “set out errors,” you misintepret my goal here.  It is not to suggest that I know all the answers (I do not), or that everything I see as “error” is in fact so (it may not be).  It is simply to show that it is critical - especially given the amount of info out there, on BOTH sides - for each person to do their own research, rather than simply taking info, videos, etc. at “face value” - no matter how well they jibe with our own beliefs.

Having said that, the video is great, and I thank you for it.  I will be forwarding it to family and friends.  The only minor quibble I have was that I did not see the reasoning behind the gratuitous inclusion of Hillary Clinton toward the end.  I assume it had something to do with her original vote on the bill giving the president authorization to take military action.  However, if that is the case, why not show ALL of the senators and congresspersons who did so?  Why the “targeted” swipe at Hillary?

I consider this type of “singling out” to be “foul play” - no matter what I may think of the person being singled out; i.e., I would say the same thing if it was a Republican senator.

Peace.

Maani,

Pt.1 “I barely know where to begin.” 

““First, a query: do you do any independent research, or do you simply accept what you see/hear/read as “fact?” “”.

Instinct plays a large part.  Some things resonate, some things don’t.  You say in 45 minutes you “found out just how many errors - and how much missing info” has been omitted in Jones’ Endgame film, yet you yourself then fail to provide “sources” (eg., “links”) for board members to scrutinise your claims.  Strikes me as hypocritical. 

Listening and watching those two Webre Google videos mentioned below (Cooper Union address 09/07/07 and Vancouver 9/11 Truth Conference June 22nd – 24th 2007) Webre’s words strike a chord with me, and doing a little research on the Rothschild family, as one example, and learning of their involvement in funding both sides of wars to maximise profits, and even instigating conflicts, well to me that shows Webre is a knowledgeable fellow because we well know there was never any valid reason for attacking Afghanisatn and Iraq in the aftermath of 911.

“1.  Webre.  Why are you so invested in this guy?”

Glad you asked.  When you say “I can assure you that none of the others - Fetzer, Jones, Griffin, Tarpley - take him [Webre] very seriously, if at all.” (from post #119852), I’m almost certain Fetzer has expressed support for Webre’s efforts (in collaboration with independent scientist Loren Moray) to set up the “International Citizens 9/11 War Crimes Tribunal”.  My question to you is why do you feel so threatened by their [Webre, Moray] efforts?  Don’t you want the true perpetrators of 911 brought to justice? Don’t you feel any sympathy whatsoever for the suffering citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan who are mere pawns in this whole charade Bush and his mates instigated called “the war on terror” for the financial benefit of “the ruling power elites”? We’re now in 2007. Immediately in the aftermath of 911 Bush solemly swore he’d bring Bin Laden to justice for what he’d “masterminded” against the US and its citizens, yet as Tarpley explains in “9/11 SYNTHETIC TERRORISM: MADE IN USA” they could’ve arrested Osama in July 2001 as he jetted into Dubai for a stay at the Dubai American Hospital for kidney treatment. Bin Laden’s CIA handler and case officer was one “Larry Mitchell” remember? Page 136-7.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

Getting back to Webre, he intrigues me when he says things like: “The establishment of an International Citizens 9/11 War Crimes Tribunal is justified, given that the official institutions in the US have failed to assign legal accountability for the false-flag operation of 9/11.”  Can you honestly argue with that? 

And, “9/11 as a war crime…  The Nuremburg Principals of 1945 have made offensive wars, a war crime, crimes against peace, or aggressive wars.  The US and other agents of the international war crimes racketeering organisation have systematically used false-flag operations to attempt to turn aggressive wars, which are a war crime, in other words, to start a war.  Ever since 1945 under Nuremberg, to start a war, has been the most serious [of] war crime.  So the US has systematically used false-flag operations, to attempt to turn aggressive wars, into defensive wars, by making it appear that a target nation, has attacked an aggressor nation.”

Pt.2 “I barely know where to begin.” 

And, “The false-flag operation of September 11, 2001, and each of these depopulation-related activities of the international war crimes racketeering organisation, constitute by the definitions of the Rome Statute of the International Court, violations, quote, ‘Of the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole on a scale that is difficult for a normal human being to contemplate, (a) the crime of genocide, (b) crimes against humanity, (c) war crimes, and (d) the crime of aggression’.”

And, “Independent scientist Loren Moray states, quote: ‘Intentional depopulation, and massive genocide, are the core policies by which ruling elites drive international relations, economic aid development, strategic weapons development, and the design of engineered wars, and war crimes.  The operational goal of this intentional depopulation policy, is the reduction of the human population.’  In 1973, with presidential approval, former US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger presented 2 billion people as the desired level of reduction.  In fact the depopulation policy may seek to reduce 2 to 4 billion, or up to 2/3 of the world’s population.  This depopulation policy, is intended by the world’s ruling elite, to result in control of mineral and strategic resources, water, and total control of the world’s wealth.  One of the most common political epithets for the depopulation policy, is quote, ‘The New World Order’.”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8857832629715387909&q=Jim+Fetzer,+Cooper+Union&total=20&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

“2.  Depopulation.  Webre is not the first to make such claims, nor will he be the last.”
Can you tell me of anyone else who is currently pointing this issue out to us or the media other than Webre? Actually concerning the media they certainly don’t want to know.
“3.  Manipulating weather patterns.  The idea that any such activity could be CONTROLLED - i.e., by specific place or demographic - defies even basic logic and common sense,”
I was sceptical too, but after reading Jeane Manning & Nick Begich’s book, it’s a worry what they can or are attempting to do. These experiments they’re conducting are also aimed at closing down electronic communications. Get it?
“4.  Endgame.  Although I have a great deal of admiration for Alex Jones, he can also be as dangerous as those he takes on.”
The man’s a true patriot, and as for being dangerous, Lord almighty how can he ever be compared to the Bush admin and what they’ve committed? But I agree he’s got to aim for accuracy in all that he says and writes.
“Julian Huxley was NOT an “unrepentant eugenicist.” He fought vehemently against ‘the Russian eugenics program that was ongoing in the post-war period’.” 
And the ours wasn’t??  Did you forget the “well-known eugenics study, the Tuskegee Syphilis Project [that] killed hundreds of blacks, and spanned 40 years until whistleblowers exposed it in 1972.”? Anyway please provide a url link to what you’re claiming re “Huxley was NOT an ‘unrepentant eugenicist’.” His brother Aldous clearly claims the contrary in that 1962 Berkley address, no?
“-WWF.  How anyone could connect the founding of the World Wildlife Fund - an organization devoted to conservation, research and restoration of the natural environment - with something nefarious like the New World Order stretches credibility to new extremes:”
You could be right. Not everything in Endgame rings true I admit though they do provide ample references for one to checkout.

Pt.3 “I barely know where to begin.” 

“Israeli radiation tests on children.  A complete and utter hoax.  This claim was made by a single person - Barry Chamish, a truly wacko Israeli conspiracy theorist”

Yes I came across that myself and wondered how accurate the film’s claims are, though the film footage would seem to reinforce his/their claims. 

“Finally, re the Aldous Huxley speech, I believe he may be partially correct; I think it will actually be a combination of the two (i.e., Brave New World and 1984).  We already see evidence of both, with neither one being strongly prominent over the other - yet.”

But here’s where Webre comes gallantly back into the picture and offers commonsense methods for addressing the rot, and I’d forgotten about it:

“Finally, nurture the body politic.  The matrix can be defeated, by our taking active part in the body politic, infusing vital popular energy into our constitutional democracy, become personally involved in the 2008 electoral process – Webster Tarpley talked about that.  On the anti-Depopulation matrix platform, there are over 550,000 elected political officers in the USA.  Run for office, work for a candidate, at the municipal, county, state and federal level.  Run, on the 9/11, platform!  Aggressive and – this is what we call ‘multitasking’.  It’s like, we’re the multitask generation, right?  We’re just – these are just parallel tasking.

“Aggressively seek removal, of President George W. Bush, and Vice President Richard B. Cheney, through the constitutional means of article 2, impeachment, or article 3, criminal prosecution for treason, in the 9/11 false-flag attack on the US.  Just keep up the pressure on them!  Tomorrow I’m jumping on a plane – on a train – I’m gunna be there, at 9/11 in front of the White House, march up Pennsylvania Avenue, into the offices, and put it in their face, right?  Why?  Because it’s my right!  And it’s all of our rights.  That’s multi-track [multitasking].”

Maani, it’s why I like this guy Webre, even though he worked for Jimmy Carter as his UFO guru back in 1977, or when ever.  But the man for mine is committed to the cause and is saying the things that need to be said in the aftermath of 911:  “Create community and email trees, to coordinate information, and resistance! in the event of a false-flag attack, by the Bush administration, on the population of the USA, or elsewhere in the world.”

Surely it’s the duty of every free man, woman and child on the planet to do their bit to bring these criminals in the administration to justice for the crimes against humanity they’ve unleashed.

Maani, check this out:

How to create an Angry American
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ

Then please set out all the errors contained there in. It’s short - only 6:26 minutes of video.

I will get back to your 3-part response a little later but meanwhile concerning your comment…

““This is why it pains me that a generally “solid” person like Alex Jones is mixing fact with fiction and calling it ALL “fact.” It is not.””

...Suggestion: Why don’t you email or ring Jones up either on air/off air to correct him on these supposedly contentious issues? By the way when you say Watson “also provided similar knowledge and material to all of the Nazis’ enemies (England, Russia, France et al).” wouldn’t you agree it supports Webre’s claim…

“To the permanent war economy, war is an industrial activity, created by controlling ‘both sides’, of the Hegelian dialectic of enemies.”

...no? 

“However, if you feel so strongly about this, do you boycott IBM computers - or are you posting from one?”

I’m using an IBM clone PC (Made in China) running Windows O/S, and I have owned and driven Ford motor cars in the past. Why? Affordability and to support my local PC store and Ford dealership. They need to eat too.

Pt. I

Sam:

I barely know where to begin.  First, a query: do you do any independent research, or do you simply accept what you see/hear/read as “fact?”  In a mere 45 minutes of research, I found out just how many errors - and how much missing info - there are in what you have just posted.

1.  Webre.  Why are you so invested in this guy?  In any case, you still have not indicated how and why he would have any special knowledge of the kind of “deep conspiracy theory” claims he makes, especially what I have termed the “prima facie ridiculous” ones.

2.  Depopulation.  Webre is not the first to make such claims, nor will he be the last.  But like so many others, he simply does not provide any substantial support for his claims.  “Chemtrails?”  These have been debunked numerous times.

3.  Manipulating weather patterns.  The idea that any such activity could be CONTROLLED - i.e., by specific place or demographic - defies even basic logic and common sense, given that weather reporters often cannot even predict the weather correctly in their own local areas in any given 24-hour period.  And you want me to believe that the government can “control” exactly what part of a population will be affected by this activity?  Sure, we have been “seeding” clouds to make it rain (and other similar activities) for years.  But that does not automatically pan out to controlled infecting of a specific area.

4.  Endgame.  Although I have a great deal of admiration for Alex Jones, he can also be as dangerous as those he takes on.  Because while there are certainly lots of facts and large kernels of truth in here, it is also replete with errors and blatant mistakes.  And when someone mixes fact with fiction and passes the whole thing off as “fact,” I consider that as dangerous a form of propaganda as the government’s brand.  Just a few things here:

-IBM founder Thomas Watson was NOT a “devout follower of Hitler.”  Watson did provide computer knowledge/material to the Nazis - but he also provided similar knowledge and material to all of the Nazis’ enemies (England, Russia, France et al).  Nor is there any indication that he knew to what use these would be put; i.e., to accuse him of conscious complicity in making death camps more efficient is unconscionable.  As well, it is simply false that the tattoos on camp victims were “human identification numbers which fed into the computers,” since optical scanning had not yet been invented.  One can certainly say that Watson should never have provided ANY assistance to Nazi Germany.  However, if you feel so strongly about this, do you boycott IBM computers - or are you posting from one?  As well, do you boycott Ford vehicles (since Ford WAS a Nazi sympathizer), or do you drive one, or have you rented one?  If one is going to make claims, one should live their convictions.

-Julian Huxley was NOT an “unrepentant eugenicist.”  He fought vehemently against the Russian eugenics program that was ongoing in the post-war period.  He was a Darwinian evolutionary scientist who spoke out AGAINST the idea that any “race” was genetically inferior to any other.  His only real “eugenics” notion was that he believed it could be used to “remove undesirable variants from the human gene pool”; i.e., diseases, etc.  As well, when he found out that eugenics was being used to justify mass murder (e.g., in the death camps), he backed even further away from it toward what he termed “transhumanism,” which he saw as the bettering of humankind through (normative) science, technology and “improvement of the social environment.”

Pt. II

-WWF.  How anyone could connect the founding of the World Wildlife Fund - an organization devoted to conservation, research and restoration of the natural environment - with something nefarious like the New World Order stretches credibility to new extremes: even bad people do good things once in a while, and if one or more of the founders of the WWF was of “questionable” character, this does not mean the organization has some ulterior motive.

-NYC subway bioweapon test.  First, Jones does not even get the date correct: the test was carried out in 1966, not 1968; the REPORT on the test came out in 1968.  If Jones cannot even get this little fact right, how much weight am I to give even loonier claims?  Secondly, the niger bacillus was not deemed to be a “bioweapon,” but was thought to present minimal (if any) active danger; i.e., the test was to see how far and how quickly it spread through the system, NOT how many people it could infect; while there is plenty of evidence of the test itself, there is zero evidence of the claim that military medical personnel were “placed in local hospitals to monitor the effects.”

-Israeli radiation tests on children.  A complete and utter hoax.  This claim was made by a single person - Barry Chamish, a truly wacko Israeli conspiracy theorist who also believes, among other things, that (i) Shimon Peres (not Yigal Amir) killed Yitzak Rabin, (ii) Utah Congressman Wayne Owens did not have a heart attack, but was assassinated by order of Peres, (iii) Ariel Sharon’s stroke was actually an attempted assassination by Peres, (iv) Peres “gave away” Jerusalem to the Vatican as part of a secret agreement, (v) the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip “caused” Hurricane Katrina, and (vi) the collapse of a banquet hall which killed 23 and injured over 300 was a “rehearsal” for 9/11.  Need I go on?  There is ZERO evidence that the radiation test he speaks of ever took place.

Finally, re the Aldous Huxley speech, I believe he may be partially correct; I think it will actually be a combination of the two (i.e., Brave New World and 1984).  We already see evidence of both, with neither one being strongly prominent over the other - yet.

Re BNW, much of Western society is indded being medicated into a phony state of contentment (if not happiness) by the pharmaceutical companies - and this is occurring practically from birth: we give young children Ritalin, then move them on to Paxil or Lexapro (or similar) when they are teenagers, then perhaps Valium or Prozac as adults, etc.  As well, WAY too many Americans have unprotestingly traded away many of their civil liberties, freedoms and privacy in the name of “security and safety” vis-a-vis the phony “war on terror.”  And the “consumer juggernaut” in the U.S. keeps people in buying mode through a series of never-ending reasons for “sales”: January gives us Washington’s Birthday, February is Valentine’s Day, May gives us both Mother’s Day and Memorial Day, June is Father’s Day, July is Independence Day, September is Labor Day, October is both Columbus Day and Halloween, November gives us both Veterans Day and Thanksgiving, and December gives us Christmas - and we’re right back to Washington’s birthday.

Pt. III

And yet there are just as many Orwellian aspects as their are Huxleyan.  War is Peace.  Freedom is Slavery.  Ignorance is Strength.  A perpetual state of war (on “terror”) has been declared.  A new scapegoat has been found (radical Islam).  OBL and Al Qaeda have become all-purpose bogeymen.  We are largely controlled through propaganda, in which much of the media is complicit.

Getting back on point, however, it is critically important that you do your own research when you see, hear, read or watch something that makes claims as “fact.”  As noted, there are plenty of bad, sinister, nefarious things occurring in our world.  But that does not mean that every single bad, sinister, nefarious thing that someone CLAIMS is happening (or has happened) IS in fact happening (or has in fact happened).  And sources need to be vetted as carefully on the “alternative theory” side as they do on the “official story” side.  This is why it pains me that a generally “solid” person like Alex Jones is mixing fact with fiction and calling it ALL “fact.”  It is not.  And if one is going to know how to “read between the lines” - to discern what is supportable and what is not, what is at least possibly believable and what fails almost any test of logic and common sense (much less supporting evidence) - one must take the time to research and not just regurgitate what one sees, hears, feels, etc.

Peace.  (For real.)

Pt.1 “Do you mean Alfred Webre or Peter Werbe?”

Maani, I’m referring to ‘Alfred Webre’ who in the Sept 07, 2007 Cooper Union address is introduced by Sandra Hicks: “...who holds a JD, a Masters of Education, was born ... 1942 on a US naval air station.  He is a lawyer, an author, a member of the DC Bar, a futurist, a peace activist, an environmental activist, and a space activist, who has promoted the ban of space weapons.  He was a co-architect of the Space Preservation Treaty*, and the Space Preservation Act**, that was introduced, to the United States Congress, by Congressman Dennis Kucinich, ...” 

*Begins: “The States Parties to this Treaty. Reaffirming the importance and urgency of preventing an arms race in outer space and of approving concrete proposals on confidence building which could prevent such an arms race, as set out in United Nations General Assembly Resolutions 56/535 and 55/32 on the prevention of an arms race in outer space,”
http://www.peaceinspace.com/sp_treaty.shtml

**Purpose: “To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Space_Preservation_Act

As for “Peter Werbe - progressive radio host from Detroit” I wasn’t aware of but thanks. He states: “BUSH RUNS A TORTURE STATE! Why the CIA destroyed the videos - Click on pic. Ask the Democrats: Is impeachment still off the table for these lying, warmongering, justice obstructing torturers? Impeachment is the least of what BushCo deserves; they’re war criminals and belong in the World Court to be tried as such. ...”
http://www.peterwerbe.com/

It’s valid to note that Alfred Webre in his “Vancouver 9/11 Truth Conference June 22nd – 24th 2007” address states (a few minutes into the address): “The International Criminal Court, established to adjudicate serious war crimes, ‘has failed’ to deal with over 240 complaints of United States and UK war crimes in Iraq, thus the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal has emerged to fill the gap in the dereliction of duty by the International Criminal Court.”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4386908535098033726&q=webre+tribunal&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Maani are you suggesting Alfred Webre’s “depopulation” claims are unfounded/absurd? But in fact in Pt.11 of Alex Jones’ “Endgame” (forget who actually researched/scripted the documentary) it points out that IBM founder Thomas J. Watson “a devout follower of Hitler” supplied his punch-card computers along with IBM technicians to the Nazis for use in the death camps. And also the tattoos on camp victims were “IBM human identification numbers which fed into the computers”. In an earlier “1928 Jamaican race-mixing study” IBM had used a similar punch-card system. “The first real computers, were literally invented, by a eugenicist, for eugenics.”

Pt. 2 “Do you mean Alfred Webre or Peter Werbe?”

Further “...unrepentant eugenicist Julian Huxley, argued that since the leaders of eugenics had founded the environmental and conservation movements, that they should be used as vehicles in the formation of a world government.  Just as H. G. Wells (author of “The Open Conspiracy”) had envisioned, this government would be controlled by a scientific dictatorship, and would be guided by the principles of eugenics.  Huxley [Julian] created the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) with Bilderberg founder and former SS Officer Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, and Prince Philip of England.”

“In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation.” – Prince Philip, reported by Deutsche Press Agentur (DPA), August 1988.

Brave New World author Aldous Huxley, brother of Julian gave a talk March 20, 1962 at Berkley just before his death and admitted his bestseller written in 1932, “was based ‘not on fiction’, but on ‘what the elite were actually planning to implement’.”

Aldous Huxley (archival footage):  “And here I would like briefly to compare, the parable of Brave New World, with another parable which was put forth more recently, in George Orwell’s book 1984.  I’m inclined to think that the scientific dictatorships of the future, and I think there are going to be scientific dictatorships in many parts of the world, will be probably a good deal nearer to the Brave New World pattern, than to the 1984 pattern.  They will be a good deal nearer, not because of any humanitarian qualms in the scientific dictators, but simply because, the Brave New World pattern is probably a good deal more efficient, than the other.  But if you can get people to consent to the state of affairs in which they are living, the state of servitude, the state of being, well it seems to me that the nature of the ultimate revolution with which we are now faced, is precisely this – that we are in process of developing, a whole series of techniques, which will enable, the controlling oligarchy – who have always existed, and presumably always will exist – to get people actually, to love their servitude.  People can be made, to enjoy a state of affairs which, by any decent standard they ought not to enjoy, and these methods I think are, a real refinement, on the older methods of terror, because they combine methods of terror, with methods of acceptance.  But then, there are the various other methods, which one can think of.  There is for example, the pharmacological method. This was one of the things I talked about in Brave New World, and the result would be that ah, I mean you can imagine, a euphoric which would make people thoroughly happy even in the most abdominal circumstances.  I mean, these things are possible.”

Another claim in Endgame Pt.11 of 14: “In 1968 the Pentagon tested a deadly bioweapon on New York subways, and placed personnel in local hospitals to monitor the effects.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZAsCdJveRk

Sam:

Do you mean Alfred Webre or Peter Werbe?  The post to which I responded said “Alfred Werbe.”  Werbe has a Masters in Education and a J.D.  His primary focus has been UFO studies, although he is also very active in the movement for cooperation in space and he does have an interest in politics.  However, he has absolutely no other credentials, particularly any that would give him special knowledge about any aspect of 9/11, much less “deep conspiracy study” stuff.  Peter Werbe is a progressive radio host from Detroit who has been a vocal opponent of the Bush administration, as well as having a strong interest in 9/11 alternative theories.

Let us compare that with the others.

Fetzer has a Ph.D. in probability theory (which has direct application to aspects of 9/11) as well as being chair emeritus of one of the most prestigious philosophy chairs in the country.  He has published widely, both books and peer-reviewed papers.

Jones earned both bachelor’s and Ph.D. degrees in physics (which has direct application to aspects of 9/11, even within his speciality), and has also been published widely, both books and peer-reviewed scientific papers.

Griffin earned his Ph.D. in philosophical theology, and has been widely published, both books and articles.  However, he also has a solid, long-held grounding in American history and politics, enough to qualify him as an “expert” in certain area of special study, particularly the history of “false flag” operations, and the nexus of politics and oil.

Tarpley has no “special” credentials or degrees, but, like Griffin, has made the study of the history of Anerican politics a focus of the past two decades or more of his work.

Alfred Webre is certainly entitled to his opinions.  But when he presents those opinions as quasi-factual - especially when some of them are so prima facie ridiculous, and particularly when he provides zero support for them - he simply comes across as kooky.  I can assure you that none of the others - Fetzer, Jones, Griffin, Tarpley - take him very seriously, if at all.  Nor would you ever find the other four making outlandish statements such as Webre makes - particularly without providing at least some degree of support.  Keep in mind that Fetzer and Jones are scientists who believe in the “scientific method,” and Griffin and Tarpley are deeply read professionals who are not given to completely insupportable claims.

This does not mean that Fetzer, Jones, Griffin, Tarpley et al are always going to be correct.  But it does mean that they are going to take the time to make sure they have at very least marginal - and usually stronger than that - support for any claim they make.

Peace.

“One need only take a gander at his [Webre’s] website to see how far out there he is: just slightly (maybe) to the left of the wacky David Ickes.” 

Maani would it be possible for you to give some example/s re Webre from his website that you’re referring to?  Eg., in the Cooper Union address he does refer to the Nick Begich/Jeane Manning book “Angels Don’t Play This HAARP - Advances in Tesla Technology”, though it seems logical that by interfering with the ionosphere weather patterns may be manipulated. (HAARP, i.e., “High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program”)

Wondering can Profs Jim Fetzer, Steven Jones & David Ray Griffin (plus journalist & historian Webster Tarpley) to be taken seriously? 

WTC7, Professor Jones & Thermite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEoKhyXKWxQ&mode=related&search;

Sam:

With all due respect, Alfred Webre is a UFO-logist and ultra-conspiracy theory freak who is not taken seriously by too many people - even some of the most radical “alternative theorists” of 9/11.  I would not put much stock in anything he says.  One need only take a gander at his website to see how far out there he is: just slightly (maybe) to the left of the wacky David Ickes.

Indeed, Webre gives ZERO support for his claims, and is blatantly incorrect about some of them.  For example, the Military Commissions Act did NOT “abolish” the Posse Comitatus Act; it did, indeed, weaken it, allowing a sitting president to unilaterally declare martial law without the consent of Congress.  But as scary and outrageous as that is, the remainder of the PCA remains in full force and effect.  And, please - his entire contention re Britain and the U.S. is so far beyond bizarre as to stretch credibility to new extremes: it is one thing to hypothesize alternative theories of 9/11 based on evidence available to all; it is quite another to make the kinds of claims he does with ZERO support or evidence.  Indeed, stop for a minute and really think about this: where on earth would a guy like Webre be getting his info from?  Do you think ANYONE in any serious position would share ANYTHING with this guy?

Hey - I’m as serious an “alternative theorist” re 9/11 as the next guy.  And I believe - from what I have read, and from available evidence - that (i) Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor (or at least a planned attack on a U.S. naval base) before 12/7/41, and (ii) Lee Harvey Oswald was NOT a “lone gunman” - among other things.  But even hard-core alternative theorists must draw the line SOMEWHERE.  Mine is drawn when men like Webre - who have NO known access to the types of info he claims to have, who offer no support for that info - make patently absurd claims, and misstate other information.

Peace.

Pt.1

Maani, concerning “Myth vs. Fact” in your SPP (Security & Prosperity Partnership of North America) link it says:

“Myth:  The SPP was an agreement signed by Presidents Bush and his Mexican and Canadian counterparts in Waco, TX, on March 23, 2005.”

“Fact:  The SPP is a dialogue to increase security and enhance prosperity among the three countries.  The SPP is not an agreement nor is it a treaty.  In fact, no agreement was ever signed.”

Yet according to Webre on 09/07/07 at the Cooper Union he said (and I’m sorry but I don’t have time to condence his words for ease of understanding): 

“The North American Union, ‘Security and Prosperity Partnership’ (SPP), signed March 23, 2005.  The SPP is a regulatory structure for implementing this matrix* in North America.  It is now integrating monetary – the ‘Amero’, supposedly, to replace the dollar – and security regulations.  A false-flag terror attack – state terror attack – could activate the depopulation legal matrix in Canada, Mexico, and the USA now, under a USA central military government – that’s what they’ve done.  And when the Queen of England came over – she’s one of their chess pieces, she’s like the Queen in chess – after the Virginia Tech slayings, which were CIA because they had, in the mountain right there they have a mind-control assassin school, she came over to address, right after that assassination, the Virginia legislature.  Oh, it’s ‘So sorry about those students’, and then visited Bush, for the first time since 1976, the presidency – it’s what we call a ‘capstone event’.  The US is a colony of Britain; it’s ruled by the City of London, that owns all of our banks.  Rockefeller, is an agent, of the Rothschilds, since the beginning of Rockefeller.  Rockefeller empire’s worth about 10 trillion. 

“And, the Queen came over, in a ‘capstone event’, to install George W. Bush, as a dictator of North America – ‘North America’ means, ‘Mexico, the US, and Canada’.  We Canadians – I’m a dual citizen, American/Canadian – understand this because we watch our new emperor being installed.  How?  The Bush Administration matrix was now installed at the secretive Prosperity Partnership’s Summit, ‘August 20-21st, 2007 in Montebello Quebec’, through quote: ‘The North American plan for avian and pandemic flu – influenza.  It’s through these regulations, that they’re now creating a North American dictatorship.

“I’ll go quickly through these… this is the matrix.  The Military Commission’s Act, the John Warner Defence Act, which abolishes the Posse Comitatus Act, and the Insurrection Act of 1807, which essentially allows US troops to be deployed throughout the nation, the National Security Presidential Directive 57, which provides that in a catastrophic emergency, Bush, or the US president assumes control of the executive judicial and legislative branches of government – Abraham Lincoln must be looking down upon us and saying, ‘Hey! I’ve got to work overtime!’  Executive order, blocking property of certain persons who threaten stabilisation efforts in Iraq – that’s why you don’t see many, antiwar t-shirts here – you know, all these subliminal things, I mean people get arrested for wearing antiwar t-shirts, in the United States.

“Get a US flag, and wear it upside down.  You’re going to be protected by the fact, that it’s an international symbol of distress.  On the website, of the International Citizens 9/11 War Crimes Tribunal, under the executive summary of the 9/11 Independent Prosecutor Act, we have the American flag, upside down.  On the picture of the Capitol, it’s upside down, as an international symbol of distress.  It’s not disrespectful.  It’s within the, if you have a military fort, and you’re in charge of the fort and you’re under distress of attack and you want the cavalry to save us, save you, you put up the flag, upside down.  So you’re protected by law – make this [US flag badge] a symbol: own it.”

Pt.2

*“The goals of 9/11…  9/11 was a cyops false-flag operation by an ‘international war crimes racketeering organisation’ – some say an ‘A-I’, ‘artificial intelligence matrix’ – to provide a pretext to engage in genocidal and ecocidal depleted uranium – DU – bombing of Central Asia – Afghanistan and Iraq – in order to secure vast oil and uranium reserves, to roll out a terror-based national security system worldwide, ‘to implement the final stages of a world depopulation policy’, and as a trigger for a WW3 conflagration.”  “The methodology of this depopulation policy, is to increase death rates, and decrease birth rates, through a combination of technologies, including false-flag operations like 9/11, and genocidal wars, nuclear technologies, including nuclear weapons’ testing, nuclear power, and depleted uranium.  An international war crimes racketeering organisation, or, an ‘AI’ – ‘artificial intelligence matrix’ – this is a research question, was behind the false-flag operation of 9/11.”  “This war crimes racketeering organisation, extends to the City of London, a quasi-independent 677-acre jurisdiction governed by a committee of 12 banks, and overseen by the House of Rothschild, who’s net worth is reliably estimated at ‘100 trillion dollars’.  Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, acted as criminal operatives of [for] this organisation, or ‘matrix’.  An international citizens’ 9/11 war crimes tribunal can identify and adjudicate the criminal responsibility of the full racketeering organisation under racketeering-like laws, and apply restorative justice.”  “A matrix of martial law legislation, and executive orders of the Bush administration, is now in place, for the abolition of constitutional democracy, the relocation, incarceration, and depopulation of the North American public, and the illegal expropriation of its property.  This matrix is designed, to be activated by a 9/11-style false-flag state-terror attack, against a major urban centre in the US, and/or abroad, possibly using nuclear, bioweapons, including the Avian Flu, or advanced exotic weapons, such as ‘directed energy weapons’.”

Confused?  It’s pretty straight forward.  Eg., Webre also says:  “Exotic weapons such as, engineered bioweapons such as ‘the avian flu’, a bioweapon which some researchers say, can kill up to 2 billion persons, if fully activated, will show the legal matrix, which was just put into place in Canada – I came to this conference, from Vancouver Canada.  We just had a ‘secretive meeting’ behind a cordon, a secure fence and cordon, of ‘The Three Amigos’, the President of Mexico, the President of the United States, and the Prime Minister of Canada, to implement ‘a new flu vaccine protocol for North America’.  The Avian Flu is a bioweapon which, some researchers say can kill up to 2 billion persons if fully activated – there’s your 2 billion persons right there.”  “AIDS, was an engineered bioweapon, produced under the most recent research at Fort Dietrich, under a underlined item budget of the US Congress as, a bioweapon! – it was released into the US public by the New York City Medical Examiner’s Office!...  That’s why we all died in the ’80s!  That’s why we have that quilt – it’s war, it’s that quiet war.  AIDS targeted at populations, such as Africa, and southern India, for the purposes of depopulation, or the weaponisation of food, through GMO crops, and other mechanisms.”

You can hear all this by going to this link (starts at the 55:30 min mark):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8857832629715387909&q=Jim+Fetzer,+Cooper+Union&total=20&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

Thanks for putting up “WINNIPEG SUN - April 18, 2007 - ‘Scholars debate 9/11 findings’ By JOHN GLEESON”.

Conservative Yankee:  “Day of Reckoning: How Hubris, Ideology, and Greed Are Tearing America Apart” by Pat Buchanan.  Have heard of it, thanks.

Maani, thanks for the Orwell quotes.

Before y’all get yer knickers in a twist about the U.S.-Mexico-Canada deal, you may want to have a look-see at this:

http://www.spp.gov/myths_vs_facts.asp

119049 by sam on 12/09 at 4:00 am

“President [G.W.] Bush signed, a formal agreement, that will end the United States, as we know it. And he took the step without approval from either of the US Congress, or the people of the United States.”

I agree… read
  “Day of Reckoning: How Hubris, Ideology, and Greed Are Tearing America Apart” by Pat Buchanan

If this doesn’t awaken the US sheeple, nothing will!

http://www.whodidit.org/cocon.html
  I bet there is alot more than 103 that pulled off 911 attacks. Only part I disagree is with the referance that Arabs were operatives for the 911 job.
I bet 2B Presnut Rudy was the 911 mastermind instead of Binny Ladin !

Sam:

Re the quote about a “formal agreement” that will “end the U.S. as we know it,” this is a bit hyperbolic.  Bush did sign a non-binding document creating a “working group” to study the possibility of a “trilateral agreement” b/w the U.S., Mexico and Canada.  However, this is more a trade-plus-mutual-security agreement than an EEC-type set-up; e.g., there will be no common currency (the alleged Amero), no common military force, and no loss of individual sovereignty.  As well, the whole thing has been put on hold since it was not re-ratified by the new leaders of Mexico and Canada.  In addition, the entire thing could come to naught for any number of reasons.

Re quotes, I though I would add a few, all from our favorite person, George Orwell.  to say he was prescient is an understatement:

All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.

All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.

Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.

In our age there is no such thing as ‘keeping out of politics.’ All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.

It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.

One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes a revolution in order to establish a dictatorship.

Patriotism is usually stronger than class hatred, and always stronger than internationalism.

Political chaos is connected with the decay of language… one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end.

Political language… is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

Peace.

Excerpt from the: 

Vancouver 9/11 Truth Conference June 22nd – 24th 2007

Alfred Webre:  “So in terms of the particular timing, we are acting just in time now, and the announcement – this is the official announcement at this conference, of the ‘International Citizens 911 War Crimes Tribunal’, which I’m going to announce in this talk – and, the timing is very urgent, because ‘National Security Presidential Directive 51’ was signed on May 9, 2007, by President George W. Bush, and, it was ‘signed in a stealth fashion’, and put on the White House website ‘with no notice in the mainstream media’.  And what that directive does, is that it directs and gives the president of the United States, assumes control of the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government – notice it takes total control of the US government – dictatorial powers in the event of, quote, ‘a national catastrophe’.  And, that ‘national catastrophe’ can take place anywhere on the planet (laughs).  So, you can talk – I mean, this is ‘a setup’ for the ‘false flag operation mode’, and we’ll talk more about why false flag operations are used, ever since war was declared a crime against peace, or the most serious of war crimes by the Nuremburg Principles of 1945 – if you go to war, only defensive wars are legal.  So, if you’re part of the ‘permanent war economy’, that makes its money out of manipulating the ‘Hegelian dialectic of enemies’, where ‘war is an industrial activity’, the false flag operation is the ‘mechanism’ of a loophole around the Nuremberg Principles, ‘cause you ‘fake’ an attack against yourself.  So therefore, built into every war, you have to build in the false flag operation.  So that’s why, technically, they have it.

“But now, with the signing of the ‘National Security Presidential Directive 51’, of ‘May 9, 2007’, we have come into ‘the final phase’, and I believe, that the burning question is, will there be a presidential election of 2008, in the US?  And that’s kind of the race against time, and it may be that we may have one with great difficulty, so, we’re all going to have to remain vigilant, and it is in ‘that light’ – of vigilance – that I bring you the following news…”

International Citizens 9/11 War Crimes Tribunal
June 24, 2007

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4386908535098033726&q=webre+tribunal&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

#118922 by Maani on 12/08 at 10:28 am

Thanks for that. I failed to record the links to substantial information as I found it long ago. This information should be widely circulated in credible form and source. If you hear the bees buzzing, honey is not far away, but those who touch it may get stung. Where there is smoke there is fire, but when you see the flames and hear the timbers crack, get the hell out of the way or you could be crushed.

Endgame - Blueprint for Global Enslavement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkLNiv6EP-I

“Countless people will hate the ‘New World Order’ and will die protesting against it.” - H.G. Wells, The New World Order, 1939.

“I appeared before the congressional committee, to tell what I knew of activities that might lead to, an attempt to set up a fascist dictatorship.” - Smedley D. Butler.

“The potential, for the disastrous rise of misplaced power, exists, and will persist.” - Dwight D. Eisenhower.

“The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society, and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.” - John F. Kennedy.

(Did JFK’s words echoing Eisenhower’s directed at members of “The Order of Skull and Bones,” once known as “The Brotherhood of Death” of which we know the Bushes—and John Kerry, who recently refused to answer student Andrew Myer’s simple query as he had read in one of Greg Palast’s books, whether or not he is also a member of this secret society—have a direct link to his untimely death by assassination in 1963? Such words pose a direct threat to the very existence, and therefore ‘power’ and ‘influence’ of such secret societies no?) 

“President [G.W.] Bush signed, a formal agreement, that will end the United States, as we know it. And he took the step without approval from either of the US Congress, or the people of the United States.” - TV news reporter. 

“The secret organisations of the world power elite are no longer secret.” - DEBATE NIGHT, U.S. SENATE. 

“It’s known as, ‘The Bilderberg Group’. Could their objective be, ‘world domination’?” - TV news anchorman.

“I’m not comfortable with that at all - who elected these guys to run the planet?” - Pat Martin, NDP-Manitoba.

“David Rockefeller admits in his own memoirs that he wants to destroy the United States. He’s a traitor!” - Alex Jones. 

“Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories.” - G.W. Bush. 

“There is a chance, for the President of the United States, to carry out a phrase his father used, and that is, a ‘New World Order’.” - Gary Hart.

“Your ‘new world order’ will fall. Humanity will defeat you. The answer to 1984, is 1776!” - Alex Jones.

“Battle Hymn of the Republic”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAEcca9pRk

“Don’t Tase Me, Bro!”
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/09/dont-tase-me-br.html

In response to all recent posts, 2 things we must never forget:

1. “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus Angelton - Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)

2. “The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

Some addenda to my post re The Carlyle Group.

1.  James Baker III, a managing director of TCG, was the attorney who argued GWB’s side in the 2000 Florida debacle.  He was also the head of the Iraq Study Group, and is currently heading up the panel overseeing the reconstruction efforts in Iraq.

2.  Due to the unique “access” of Carlyle director Arthur Levitt (former SEC Chair), the United Defense IPO was “greased” through the SEC system with little or no oversight whatsoever.

3.  One of TCG’s banking funds was used to purchase a major interest in a Korean bank - to the tune of $500-$750 million.  It is one of TCG’s largest single assets.

You may remember that GWB was saber-rattling at North Korea, and eventually cut all ties with them. Less than a year later, he reversed course and helped create a group (incl. China, Japan, S. Korea, N. Korea, Russia and the U.S.) to “work things out.” Wonder why GWB reversed course?  The only logical reason is that Bush pere got on the phone to his son (talk about access!), and reminded him that TCG had a MAJOR asset in Korea - one that would benefit GWB (since anything from which the father benefits ultimately benefits the son) - that was being seriously adversely affected by GWB’s policies.  And voila!  GWB “reconsiders” his policy toward N. Korea.

4.  For those in the NYC area, in 2003 TCG heavily invested in (or bought) a NY real estate development company called Extell.  Extell’s first purchase was the land underlying Donald Trump’s “Riverside South” development - at a cost of over $1 billion.  Within four years, Extell has gone from developing a single building to being among the top four real estate development firms in the city.  And I don’t need to add that almost every project they have undertaken (or are currently undertaking) has been highly controversial, often accompanied by huge protests that target not only Extell but TCG.

The list actually goes on and on.  TCG is among the main groups associated with what has come to be called the “New World Order” (along with Bilderberg, Trilateral et al).  They are an 800-pound gorilla with unique - and dangerous - access and influence, to say nothing of hopelessly major conflicts of interest.

Peace.

Douglas:

Wolfowitz’s speech was based on the 2000 neocon position paper, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses,” which first mentioned “a new Pearl Harbor” (and is where David Ray Griffin got the title for his book).  Anyone who truly cares to understand the genesis of the 9/11 attacks, that doc is must reading, and is available on the Web.

Aaron/Frank:

To understand the Bush/Bin Laden connection, one needs to know something about The Carlyle Group (TCG).  As something of an expert on TCG (I have been following them since their inception in 1987), I can give some instructive info here.

TCG is a primarily a venture capital firm that creates targeted “funds” for the purpose of purchasing majority positions in major U.S. and transnational corps, primarily defense, media, finance and telecomm (though they have their fingers in many other pies).  They have achieved a unique prominence in this area through access and influence, as their senior mgmt includes: George Bush Sr., John Major (former UK PM), Frank Carlucci (former CIA head), James Baker III (former U.S. Sec’y of State, current personal attorney to the Bushes), Louis Gerstner (former IBM head), Arnold Levitt (former SEC head), Kenneth Rennard (former FCC head), among others.

The bin Laden family was introduced to TCG by George Bush Sr., TCG’s “emissary” to the Middle East following his presidency (he continues as a consultant, despite his and TCG’s denials to the contrary).  It is not known whether GB had any direct contact with OBL, but, contrary to the family’s claims, some of them were in contact with OBL at various times, albeit infequently.

That said, GB convinced the bin Laden family to invest in two TCG “funds,” one for banking, the other for a defense industry fund.  And this is where things get really scary.

Part of that fund was used to purchase a company called United Defense in late 2000, early 2001.  Immediately after 9/11, TCG moved to take UD public. (As an aside, this IPO was “greased” through the system by Levitt, former SEC chair, with little or no oversight.)  In late Oct 2001, UD’s IPO was issued, and TCG reaped a SINGLE DAY profit of over $220 million.  Note that(i) UD only became valuable because the industry was “revivified” by 9/11, and (ii) the bin Laden family thereby benefitted handsomely from the attacks.  As a related aside, there is the truly unbelievable coincidence that TCG was having its annual mtg - at which the IPO was discussed - in Washington DC on the morning of the 9/11 attacks.

Add to this the fact that the bin Laden family was secretly flown out of the U.S. on 9/12 and 9/13 (when no one else was allowed to fly), and you get a clearer picture of both the Bush/bin Laden family relationship, and the power of TCG.

More to come…

Peace.

I’m not uptodate it appears about 911 attacks.Today Brasschecktv had sent me this video which is old news but the comment below is new to me. Can someone please let me know if our government has blocked any media network from debating the 911 attacks. Is it true and how so and is it legislation ?
Quote from Brasscheck—-
“In Gooogle video one of America’s most successful film directors, David Lynch, questions the reality of the “official consensus” version of events.

Note that this interview was broadcast in the Netherlands. Intelligent discussions of 9/11 are for all practical pruposes banned from broadcast channels in the US, both commercial and public.”

9/11CooperUnionNY,P.5/8CarlPerson,JustinMartell,JamesFetzer,AlfreadWebre09.07.07

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8857832629715387909&q=Jim+Fetzer,+Cooper+Union&total=20&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

“Attorney Daniel Sheehan, counsel for Karen Silkwood, and general counsel of the Institute for Cooperation in Space, of which I serve as international director, has stated that he has possession of a list of 42 NSA and CIA operatives who are posing as high-level media executives.  This is the mechanism by which the war crime of 9/11 continues to be executed.” - Alfred Webre, 09.07.07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjli_cwkPrw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&mode=related&search;

118729 by Aaron A. Senko on 12/07 at 1:48 pm

Aaron: Yes there are connections. Google Osama Bin Laden George W Bush and see what comes up. Follow up anything that looks interesting to you in connection with your hunch. You will find some very interesting interactions between the Bin Laden family and the Bush clan.

FBI refuses to identify 911 attack planes—and more
http://rinf.com/alt-news/911-truth/fbi-refuses-to-confirm-identity-of-911-planes/1875/
What is so stupid about we Americans,sit on our asses too FKN long.

I don’t know;maybe i’m the only one who’s had this thought,(and if america truely is the land of the free;i can express my thoughts with out fear of government retaliation),but,the bush family & the bin-ladin family have had ties of business,and personal natures for well over a decade;“dubba"and his buddy osama,both disliked hussan,and both profit from this war of thier’s;it’s not that far a jump to reach the assumption of georgie boy’s involvement in a conspiracy to initiate 9-11,as a possibility.  I’m just saying!!!

This is stupid.

Like God, if 9-11 had not happened we would have had to create it.

Osama Bin Ladin, whatsoever he may be, is no threat to you or to me. He is the bogeyman. He has never claimed credit for the event that “forever changed the world”. He is an Orwellian conveniance, a straw dog, a paper tiger. Consider this…there are something like 12 million undocumented illegals roiling around inside the US borders at this moment - more coming and going all the time - people who are entirely unknown to our security services. If Al Qaeda had any chops at all, wouldn’t there be two or three 9-11’s a month interrupting your daily commute?

Think a little. Let’s straighten this thing out.

WR Curley
Elizabeth, Colorado

Trevor:

Not quite.  Firstly, while I may have a problem with the sheer number of people who would have had to be ADDED IN to the conspiracy given the theory suggested in these videos, the existence of a 9/11 conspiracy is not dependent on phony airplanes.  In this regard, I continue to maintain that a conspiracy DID exist, one which included Cheney & Co. (since there are those who believe Bush too stupid to be have had a significant role in the planning).

I have explained at least three times on this thread how conspiracy theories work, and how it is possible that so many people can be “in” on them and yet there are no leaks, no whistleblowers, and a high degree of plausible deniability.  This was true with Pearl Harbor (though virtually all of those involved were political and military personnel) and JFK (where a minimum of dozens, and perhaps hundreds, were involved in one way or another).  If you have not seen my explanation, I am always happy to provide it.  But you clearly do not understand how a successful conspiracy works.

Finally, you continue to miss a critical point re the fires and the steel.  Even setting aside that steel cannot melt - or even SIGNIFICANTLY weaken - at the temperature at which diesel fuel burns, let us assume that you are right: that the fires were hot enough to “weaken” the steel.  But that does not explain why the bottom 2/3 of each tower - which were COMPLETELY UNAFFECTED by the impacts, explosions or fires - would have collapsed at the same rate as the “weakened” floors.  Indeed, the UNAFFECTED portion of each structure was greater in size and density than the upper, affected portions.  In this regard, physics would demand that either (i) the lower portion would remain intact as the upper portion fell “off” the rest of it, or (ii) only part of the lower portion would collapse, but that some - perhaps as much as a third - would remain standing.

Indeed, even given your scenario of weakened steel in the upper third of the towers, and even given a collapse of the ENTIRE structure, that collapse could not have occurred at the rate at which it did - at or near free fall speed - because the FULLY INTACT bottom 2/3 of each tower would have provided at least minimal resistance to the collapsing tops, causing the collapses to occur much more slowly.

Finally, re the fires themselves, once again you ignore two critical facts.  First, the smoke from the fires went from grey to black within twenty minutes.  Black smoke signifies an oxygen-STARVED fire - i.e., one almost certainly not hot enough to even weaken the steel.  Second, there are steel structures that have burned MUCH hotter for MUCH longer over a MUCH larger area, and did not collapse.

You seem to have a knack for cutting yourself on Occam’s Razor.  LOL.

Peace.

MAANI—Ah, the crack in the armor.  This point that every anchor, reporter, techie, witness had to be in on it is not just a little problem with the various conspiracy theories, it is a fatal flaw in the whole system.  In order to make this wild conspiracy you have to involve so many people it would be impossible to pull off without someone talking.  Now people who believe in one conspiracy model are accusing belivers of another conspiracy model of being CIA plants.  There might be some open questions in the standard hijacking model, but the conspiracies only work if you allow for logical fallacies and outright distortions of the truth.

For instance, your allegation that the videos show a sky that was not as clear as weathermen noted the day. It is true that videos of later in the day sometimes showed the haze fires and collapse, but most videos I have seen show that fabulously blue sky.  Maybe you are referring to the way the sky looks grayer after the images are enlarged to prove some imagined anomaly. Or the artifacts of bad compression on YouTube.

Other distortions I’ve seen you repeat is that the building could not collapse because the fire could not melt steel. How many times must it be repeated that the fires merely WEAKENED the steel, not melted it, and the combination of the structural AND heat damage caused the collapse. Lets also add that this was NOT the first steel structure to collapse to heat stress.

But keep thinking, and apply Occam’s razor to all those pieces of truthiness you are given.

Re : September Clues part 5 :
IMPORTANT NOTICE :
The “fireball only”-shot seen at 2:20 into part5 is ‘borrowed’ from CBS only to portray what is now on Fox’s archives. This is because I was unable to download the (similar)Fox5 “fireball only”-shot from Television Archive.
Here’s the link for anyone who would like to check it out for himself :

http://www.archive.org/details/fox5200109110831-0912

scroll to 31:45 where they’re discussing (presumably in real time) the first attack with one of their staff who claims he saw it from Hoboken (across the river)—- listen to the hastily drawn conclusion (on nothing but very limited visual evidence) and you’ll hear what appears, for all intent and purpose,  perfectly scripted

this line (no planes) has never gotten my attention until seeing this compilation - again, any experts out there following this thread who’d care to weigh in?

“The Central Intelligence Agency owns anyone of any significance in the major media.” — Former CIA Director William Colby 1973-1976

“Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the State” - James Jesus Angleton, Head of CIA Counter Intelligence 1954-1974

I have taken the time to view the entire 90 minutes (it is actually somewhat less).  And although I am no video expert, it certainly is powerful stuff. Among the most critical points (for me) - only touched on briefly - is the question of the video backgrounds.  We all remember that 9/11 was among the most beautiful, clear, blue days any of us has ever seen.  Yet the backgrounds of EVERY SINGLE “live” video feed of EVERY network is either hazy, colored or otherwise not clear.  This ALONE should increase a person’s skepticism about what the networks were showing.  Indeed, keep this one fact in mind as you watch, and it will have a profound impact on you, even if you don’t other particular aspects of the series.

However, there is one thing that bothers me in the extreme.  If what the creators of these videos suggest is true, then they are tacitly suggesting that EVERY news anchor, EVERY witness and even EVERY techie at the various news stations was part of the conspiracy.  This stretches credulity to levels that even I, a VERY serious 9/11 Truth movement member, have trouble with.  Yet the creators of this series do not even address this question at all.

Still, this series is must-viewing for any person willing to keep an open mind and look at yet another aspect of 9/11 that is questionable at best.

Peace.

many reject this line - but this compilation is pretty convincing - all 8 take about 90 min. to view - to dismiss this you almost have to conclude that the makers of this compilation did exactly what they’re accusing the media of having done - the question is then, whom do you believe - any video expterts wish to weigh in?

http://www.livevideo.com/video/socialservice/6F393F4DE41C4CF798CBB438E6378129/september-clues-part1.aspx

Hey ‘:-)’—  Wow, you almost had me there, took quite a while for me to look up sources to explain this.  It would be so much easier to be in the conspiracy camp where I could just make stuff up and ignore any contradictions.
I wish we could get the mythbuster guys to take out a 767 and recreate the flight in safe airspace, but it should be noted the plane did not get to that speed in level flight, it had previously been in a dive as steep as 10,000 ft/min.  THere are several references for this but here is one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TXIW97e6kc
A dive of that type COULD explain excess speed and the airframe would not “shake itself apart”.

And I cannot take your video as the last word because all the people quoted seem to be talking about what the plane is recomended for and expected to do. Your main expert designed the LOW SPEED (stall shaker) warning system. The plane was pushed to its absolute limit by people who did not care about safety and even almost collided with another aircraft.  Fortunately (or maybe not) most planes can go a little beyond designed tollerances. There are several interesting posts on this at Above Top Secret: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread304786/pg

But I don’t understand your comment about women so I’m going to ignore it.

Trevor—eat your own heart out—get a load of this new 911 U-tube video, out today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2upl977dsY
Now smartie pants—go and call Boeing and Booing them until you get connected with someone that can answer the simple question—-can a Boeing travel 500 mph at 700 ft and what happens after it does above 230 mph. No wonder Women are dumb.
We expect you get on your knees and beg for giveness

#101371 by Trevor on 9/19 at 10:41 am

Gravity is not a speed. Gravity causes an acceleration of a mass in free fall in time. Given the height of the top floor, it would be moving faster than the first floor by the time it reached where the first floor was when it started its fall. The first floor would be accelerating at the same rate, but for a much shorter time, thus reaching a slower speed of descent before it fell to the ground level than the top floor, which would have accelerated at that rate for a longer period before it reached ground level.

Large amounts of explosives throughout each floor going at selected programmed detonations,along with the upper weight of the floors collapsing,cause a negative thrust to the upward blast force and the downward blast aids the gravity force. Please do check out the outward blast spikes caused by explosives and going far enough onto 100’s total distruction of autos 8 blocks away-only explosives can bring bldgs down faster than gravity speed.
By the way TREVOR, check these 2 videos and learn something from experts outside of Usrael. And thanks for being a Gentleman
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/149.html

Jojo-
On the zionist/anti-semite issue, I myself have criticisms of the Israeli right-wing parties and government policies, but I notice anytime the word ‘Zionist’ comes out that hate toward ALL Jews follows pretty quickly.

For Loose Change criticism, I have to refer you to the Screw Loose Change blog (search that by google), 911myths.com, and debunking911.com, they have the facts much better at hand than I do.

I’m sure I have a better grasp on basic physics than you, enough to say ‘the buildings fell faster than gravity’ is nonsense.  First you SEE pieces ejected to the side falling faster than the main structure, disproving this. But even if believed, do you think there are jet engines pushing the structures down? Even if it had been a controlled demolition it would have only fallen at ‘freefall’ speed. How do you make buildings fall faster than gravity and what does it prove? That is among the weaker conspiracy ideas.

Sorry Trevor to reply to your post—you got screws loose and lost. Please stop with this ant-semite B.S. , Zionists are NOT SEMITES you fool .I bet you could not find one real semite in America.
Try telling us,what you find replusive with looseChange 911 and while your at it—read up on a junior physic book—principals of gravity and get back to us. All three WTC dropped faster than gravity speed. Go you bonehead,make my day :-(

This article does touch on the difficulty that comes when you see an official version does not delve deep enough yet you also know that other people are going over the deep end trying to loose ends that don’t actually go together.  I know these conspiracy theories are a path to madness (and notice the way it gets misused by anti-semites on this thread?) but I hate to be mistaken as an apologist for Bush & Co.

I do wish there were some of the anti-conpiracy sites up there, such as the screw loose change blog, 911-myths.com and others.

OK, I’ve taken a good look at Perry Logan’s first 9/11 conspiracy-“debunking” site (I’m not going to spread the BS link any further with the URL - It’s in Logan’s post if you must).

On the WTC7 controversy, the “debunking” site goes into a long, endless line of nit-picking over what Silverstein meant by “pull-it”.  All you need is the context - where the owner says “...decided to pull-it and then we watched the building [WTC7] collapse”.  So to hell with demolition slang analysis, the collapse was a voluntary act and therefore pre-planned (as the same site assures us demolitions must be).  They also show a photo supposedly proving that cables were used to “pull” WTC6 (so?).  However, there are no visible end-points for either of the seemingly thin cables in the photo (what are they attached to?) - you can’t tell.  But, these examples give a taste for the style of the “debunking” sites: they love to do endless word-smithing of any and all pro-conspiracy text - then, out of this text (any parts will do) they create various diversions, “red herrings”, and “straw men” which they proceed to knock down.  And this is “debunking”??

Instead of all this word-play, why not answer a couple of real questions:

1. How did the BBC report the “unexpected” collapse of WTC7 over 20 minutes BEFORE it started to fall?  On a live TV report, WTC7 is reported down - while it is STILL VISABLE in the live background shot behind the British reporter!!  This is fully documented and not really even denied by the BBC.  The video is available on the web.

2.  Why hasn’t the final [NIST/FEMA/whatever] report on the collapse of WTC7 been released - even NOW! over 6 full years after the event??  And why has the administration opposed ALL 9/11 investigation attempts at EVERY TURN???  Super-secret classified stuff?  like why no fighter planes were available over the northeastern USA for an hour and 20 minutes - secret stuff like that…..

If you want to read about some really fishy business, read up on the Naudet brothers and their amazingly lucky video capture of the FIRST plane hitting the WTC?  A really unbelievable coincidence (truly) - do a search, there’s a great site on it.

There is no such thing as a conspiracy throughout all of history. Nobody is smart enough to pull it off, ever.

ZIONISTS:Ones who believe they are the “only” humans(God’s"Chosen ones”)& rest is “Trash” to be consumed / used. MODUSOPERENDI:start as business and bilk the populations while laying down Organisations that are for (fake)trade & “our protection” whose actual purpose is surveillance & Harrassement of “nonZIONIST”. they keep screaming “Hitler’s holocaust, Hitler’s holocaust” while they been doing WORSE since 1948 in their Fanatic Fantasyland called Isreal aka “shitty little state”, armed with 300 nuclear bombs that they dont want to talk about.(these are peaceful people!lol) GOAL: creation of some nutty global empire based on pureness of “Chosen Ones” ENEMIES: anyone that does not Comply with them or their propaganda (is also branded an Antisemite & thoroughly harassed) NETWORK: global and very developed, a well oiled machine bent on EVIL. FEARS: “EVERYBODY is out to get us because we are good!” this is the typical brainwash and then they
WHITEWASH real issues with PATRIOTIC LIES. Also intresting to note that Mr Vanunu who stated the true state of Israeli Nukes rots in jails since 2 decades fro speaking the truth, hence we can safely conclude that TRUTH is definately not a passion in Israel. so GOD HELP ALL THAT COME IN CONTACT WITH ZIONISTS!

Although somewhat tangential, thought you should see this, from the NYT on 4/21:

A Terrorist Goes Free
By BERNARDO ÁLVAREZ HERRERA

AFTER the attacks of Sept. 11, President Bush forcefully argued that it was every country’s duty to fight international terrorism. He made the case that sponsoring terrorism or simply looking the other way when it happened were equivalent acts, and the United States would stand for neither. But holes have started appearing in that principle, courtesy of a single Venezuelan terrorist, released this week from a New Mexico prison on bail.

In early 2005, Luis Posada Carriles, a Venezuelan with a long history of violent attacks in Latin America, sneaked into the United States and was soon arrested. Mr. Posada had escaped from a Venezuelan prison while awaiting trial in the bombing of a Cuban airliner in 1976 that killed 73 people, including all 24 members of Cuba’s youth fencing team and several Guyanese medical students. This was the deadliest attack on a civilian airliner in the Western Hemisphere in history — until 9/11.

Upon Mr. Posada’s capture, the government of President Hugo Chávez demanded his extradition. But the Bush administration has refused to extradite Mr. Posada to Venezuela or Cuba, claiming that it fears he will be tortured in those countries. In fact, Washington’s reluctance is more likely linked to Mr. Posada’s history as a Central Intelligence Agency operative and a darling of extremist sectors of the powerful Cuban-American community in Florida (he tried to assassinate Fidel Castro with C-4 explosives placed in an auditorium packed with students in Panama in 2000). Twenty-two months have passed since Venezuela formally asked for his extradition, offering 2,000 pages of documentary evidence to substantiate its claim, yet the State Department has not even acknowledged receiving the request.

Nor has Mr. Posada been charged with the 1976 attack, even though declassified Central Intelligence Agency documents indicate that his role has long been accepted as fact. Instead, he faces charges of immigration fraud, a travesty that could be equaled only by charging Osama bin Laden with entering and leaving Pakistan without a visa. Finally, Mr. Posada was released on bail on Thursday, even though he is an obvious flight risk and a violent terrorist.

Of course, Mr. Posada’s case isn’t the first instance related to Venezuela in which the Bush administration has set aside its principles for political expediency. Five years ago last week, the Bush administration gleefully welcomed a coup that overthrew President Chávez, replacing him with a junta that suspended the Constitution, dismissed the National Assembly and dissolved the Supreme Court. Thankfully, the Venezuelan people ensured that their democratically elected president was returned to power two days later.

Just as the Bush administration’s support for the Venezuelan junta undermined its pledge to uphold and promote democracy around the world, allowing Mr. Posada to avoid prosecution for a vicious attack he can credibly be accused of masterminding throws into doubt the sincerity of President Bush’s war on terrorism. Mr. Posada is a terrorist, regardless of the cause he fought for or the allies he might have. The Bush administration’s foot-dragging on his extradition and its failure to even classify him as a terrorist is unconscionable.

Last week, Venezuelans celebrated the return of democracy after the coup against President Chávez. But they continue to mourn the 73 people killed aboard that civilian airliner. If President Bush is serious about the principles he set out after 9/11, he need only look to Venezuela and correct the mistakes he can. The coup has passed, but the chance to extradite or prosecute Mr. Posada hasn’t.

Bernardo Álvarez Herrera is Venezuela’s ambassador to the United States.

I honestly think there is more behind the story that is being told about the 9-11 attack. There is too many missing pieces for anyone to come up with a possible explanation of what really was the cause of the 9-11 attack. Knowing the truth is the leased the Gov. could do for all the families that had losts their loves ones.

All:

The Winnipeg Sun covers 9/11 Truth!:

April 18, 2007
WINNIPEG SUN

Scholars debate 9/11 findings
By JOHN GLEESON

An unbiased observer doesn’t need to look beyond what’s happening on the ground today in Iraq and Afghanistan to conclude the War on Terror has been a brutal, manipulative means to a transparently self-serving end.

None of this is news, however, to proponents of “9/11 Truth,” a worldwide movement that seems to keep growing despite an unofficial media blackout on their questions and investigations. So what are these “Truthers” saying?

Many people were quick to declare 9/11 a possible “inside job” based on the visible facts themselves, in particular the blanket failure of air defence, which even former Minnesota governor Jesse Ventura said defied all logic and precedent. They also seized on the history (largely unknown in North America) of Pentagon-linked “false-flag” terrorist attacks in Europe during the Cold War, and CIA involvement with al-Qaida operations.

With the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, it was seen that 9/11 was amazingly fortuitous to the Bush administration, elements of which had been looking for excuses to invade both countries—for purely strategic-commercial reasons—in the months and years prior to the attacks.

But it was the release of the 9/11 Commission Report in 2004 that breathed full life into the 9/11 Truth Movement—because it was now apparent to many that the “official story” relied on massive distortion and evasion.

The most dramatically disputed aspect of 9/11 is the question of what the world really saw that day in New York City, when three steel-frame high-rises—the 110-storey Twin Towers and the 47-storey WTC 7—collapsed at near free-fall speed neatly into their own footprints.

In 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out (Olive Branch Press, 2007), former Brigham Young University physics professor Steven Jones argues forcefully that the nature of the collapses, the presence of large pools of molten metal in the basements of all three buildings, witness accounts of hearing explosions—that these and other factors point to the conclusion all three buildings were brought down by controlled demolition.

This view, though rejected by Popular Mechanics and defenders of the status quo, has won support from engineers and academics from other disciplines. For instance, John McMurtry, a philosophy professor emeritus at the University of Guelph and fellow of the Royal Society of Canada, credits Prof. John Valleau of the Chemistry-Physics Research Group at University of Toronto for drawing his attention to “this scientific anomaly.” McMurtry concludes: “The instant and inexplicable collapses of the WTC buildings in uniform demolition style could not be explained by fire (plus, in the case of the Twin Towers, the impact of the airplanes) without contradicting the laws of engineering physics.”

David Ray Griffin, a former theology professor from California who has become a leading voice of 9/11 dissent, also points to the destruction of evidence after the collapse—most of the steel was quickly hauled away and shipped to Asia, where it was melted down.

“Although it is normally a federal offence to remove evidence from a crime scene, the removal of the steel, which was carefully overseen, was facilitated by federal officials,” Griffin wrote.

You can see why these scholars are calling for an independent, preferably international investigation into 9/11.

Breaking good news on 911—we are going after NIST
http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/3/emw515165.htm
Check also the link of the potential law suit

Jackie:

You ask, “We’re supposed to believe that this criminal regime lied about everything EXCEPT 911?”

Bravo!  That is a fabulous question in response to many skeptics.  After all, the list of lies begins with WMDs, a Saddam/Al Qaeda connection, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, illegal wiretapping, Wilson/Plame/Libby, Walter Reed, firing of Justice Dept. prosecutors - and just goes on and on and on and on…

Peace.

Best evidence that explosives were used is if you watch toproof radio transmit towers—which is centered on the roof. Once the bldg WTC starts to crumble, the tower tips to the side and then goes upright and disappears in the center. Proves that the center elevator concrete shafts were blown to colapse from the middle. Let us not forget that all 3 wtc towers were closed down for a week for electric refit. They-the culprits must think we are such stupid ones. Mostare !
Time to go after our friends of Israel media—they know who done it and no arabs did it.

RE: “Okay, perhaps there WERE explosives in the buildings.  But how do you know the terrorists did not put them there?  After all, they did it once already in 1993.”

>>> That ‘93 WTC operation

was set up through CIA/FBI-run operatives. Al Queda is a CIA/MI-6/Mossad-directed operation and has been since the Afghan/Russian War. Certainly, whoever did any of these horrible attacks is a “terrorist.” Point is this: most of the terror in the Global War of Terror is run by a rogue network of operatives within and without the aforementioned organizations. These are networks of moles, patsies and professional executioners. Moles kill genuine investigations. Unwitting patsies draw attention and take the fall. Professionals do the job and slip away under cover.

These are not home-grown indigenous “blowback,” operations. Don’t overlook Blackwater and their ilk in any of this, and don’t be taken in by cointel assets like Ward Churchill. His “Little Eichmans” schtick was vigorously pumped through the MSM simply to discredit the logical conclusion that the 19 patsies simply could not possibly have executed 911; i.e. fly sophisticated jumbo jets like fighter pilots, let alone wiring the WTC. Also, get past the Left Gatekeepers — consider this:

We’re supposed to believe that this criminal regime lied about everything except 911?

Anyone who thinks that “terrorists” could have the knowledge to design 3 controlled demolitions like that does not understand how complex the arrangement of explosives as well as the timing of the detonations is.  demolition experts with many years of experience could have pulled off the wtc demolitions.  many things remain unexplained and that is how everything was literally pulverized into nothingness.  you probably know that there is speculation that some kind of new weapon systems were used that may have been tested in this operation.  it is a little known fact that many client states won’t purchase a weapon system until it has been tested in warfare.  that is one very important function of war to the military industrial complex.  i wouldn’t doubt that there was something new used here.  there are a number of inconsistencies to conventional controlled demolitions.