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DIG DIRECTOR
Chris Hedges, the former Middle East Bureau chief for The New York Times, is a senior fellow at The Nation Institute.
Hedges has fifteen years of experience reporting from war zones in the Persian Gulf, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Colombia, the West Bank and Gaza, Sudan, Yemen, Algeria, the Punjab, Bosnia and Kosovo. In 2002, he shared a Pulitzer Prize for The New York Times' coverage of global terrorism. He is the author of the bestseller "War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning."
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Israel’s Barrier to PeaceA Dig led by Chris HedgesEditor’s note: In this Dig, the former Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times and author of the bestseller “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” examines the way Israel’s security wall has ripped a mortal gash in the lives of Palestinians living in its shadow, and argues that there can be no hope for peace in the Middle East as long as America continues to aid Israel in its dehumanizing practices.
The rage and extremism of the Islamic militants in Lebanon and the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza appear incomprehensible to the outside world. The wanton murder, the raw anti-Semitism, the callous disregard for human life, including the lives of children and other innocents, permit those on the outside to thrust these militant fighters in another moral universe, to certify them as incomprehensible. But this branding of these militants as something less than human, as something that reasonable people cannot hope to understand, is possible only because we have ignored and disregarded the decades of repression, the crushing weight of occupation, the abject humiliation and violence, unleashed on Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel because of our silence and indifference. It is the Israeli penchant for violence and occupation that slowly created and formed these frightening groups. The failure by the outside world to react to the years of brutal repression, the refusal by the United States to intercede on behalf of the occupied Lebanese and Palestinians, gradually formed and galvanized the radicals who now occupy the stage with Israel, answering death for death, atrocity for atrocity. Those inside these zones of occupation pleaded over the years for help. We refused to listen. And once they burst through these barriers, enraged, bloodied, bent on revenge, we recoiled in horror, unable to see our complicity. We asked them to be quiet, to be reasonable, to calm down, and when they did not, their blood heated by years of abuse and neglect, we condemned them to their fate. The barrier built by Israel in the West Bank is one of the most tangible and important symbols of this long humiliation, this strangulation of the Palestinians by Israel. To understand the role of this barrier is to begin to understand the rage it has now unleashed. Understanding is not excusing, but until we grasp that these militants do not come from another moral universe, until we face our own complicity in their creation and the awful violence now underway in Lebanon and the occupied territories, we cannot begin to understand the gross injustices that fuel these militant movements. It was, after all, the $10 billion in loan guarantees by the United States that made this barrier possible. Ending the loan guarantees, as long as they were used to build settlements and seize even more Palestinian land, would have done more to blunt the rage and violence of militants than all the iron fragmentation bombs Israel has dropped on the hapless civilians in Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza. But we react too late. We react to the manifestation of rage rather than the cause of rage. We are as morally compromised as those we condemn, as incomprehensible to them as they are to us. And until we become comprehensible to each other there will not be peace in the Middle East.
There is a 25-foot-high concrete wall in Mrs. Nuhayla Auynaf’s front yard. The gray mass, punctuated by cylindrical guard towers with narrow window slits for Israeli soldiers, appears from her steps like the side of a docked ocean liner. It is massive, cold and alien. The dwarfed shrubs, bushes and stunted fruit trees seem to huddle before it in supplication. I struggle to make sense of it, the way I struggled to make sense of the smoldering rubble that was the World Trade Center a few hours after the planes hit. We do not speak. Mrs. Auynaf lives with the wall. She is as drawn to it as she is repelled by it. It absorbs her. She goes out on her second-floor balcony every morning and looks at it. She implores it for answers, as if it is a Sphinx that will answer the riddle of her new existence. “My old life ended with the wall,” she tells me. The wall, built by Israel a year before, blocked her from the neighboring Israeli town of Kfar Saba where she used to shop. It cut her off from Israel. It made it hard to reach the rest of the West Bank. The lone Israeli checkpoint with its guard towers, floodlights, concrete barriers, dust, stench, crowds, special pass cards, intrusive searches, rude remarks by border police were more than she could bare. She tried to pass through once. “I could not stand the humiliation,” she says. “I turned back. I went home. Now I never leave.” The wall reduces her world to its ugly perimeter. Her five boys beg to go to the seaside. The wall makes this impossible. No one goes to the sea anymore. There are days when the checkpoint is sealed, days after suicide bombings or days when the Israeli soldiers shut it down abruptly without explanation. On those days she sometimes gathers up her children and walks the empty streets, wandering like prisoners in a circle. Other families do the same. It gives her a sense of movement. Families pass each other two, three, four times in an afternoon. All are thinking the same thoughts. “The town would rent buses to go to the sea,” she says. “We would go for the day. We would stand in the water. We would look at the rocks and the waves. This was before.” The house is pleasant. It was finished at the start of the uprising, when business was good and peace seemed possible. The floors are marble. The kitchen has a counter and white appliances. The sofa and chairs have muted blue and beige stripped fabric. We sit in the living room. A large window fan, set on the floor in front of the open door, provides a weak breeze. The door frame is filled with the expressionless gray face of the wall. It draws our eyes to it, the way a muted television screen distracts me during conversations. Sometimes we turn to look at it, as if it is a presence in the room, someone who should be offered sweet tea or a glass or water or asked to leave. We want it to speak to us. Her son Ibrahim, 6, sits on her lap. He has a scar on his leg. He was shot two years ago by Israeli soldiers. It happened at dusk. The soldiers were firing at a group of Palestinian workers who were trying to slip into or out of Israel without proper work permits. He was watching from the front yard when a bullet went astray. He stays close to his mother, especially when he hears the sounds of gunshots. He does not like to leave home. The world frightens him. The family was one of the wealthiest in Qalqiliya before the wall ruined them. They spent $200,000 on their home, with its sloping terra cotta tiled roof, its pleasant garden. It looks like the homes in the middle-class suburbs outside of Tel Aviv. Once the wall went up, the family’s car parts business was wiped out. Mrs. Auynaf’s husband makes less than 10% of what he once earned. He has trouble shipping car parts into the walled enclosure. He often cannot reach suppliers. Customers, those in Israel and those in other areas of the West Bank, can no longer get to his store. He does not have a permit to drive the family car through the checkpoint. He must stand in line, often for several hours, to go in and out. He is away now. He is trying to salvage his business, but it cannot go on like this. She hopes he will be home tonight. But she does not know. The lines are long. Sometimes the soldiers get tired or bored or surly and turn people away until the next morning. “We talk about how we are going to survive, what we are going to do,” she said. She hangs laundry on the balcony. Her only view is the wall. The other morning she was hanging laundry to dry and she heard singing. The song was by Fadel Shaker, a popular Arab singer. The singer had a sweet voice. “You who are far away, why do you forget those who love you?” the words go. “When I fall asleep I think only of your eyes. I think only of you.” Her five boys were in the yard. They began to sing. There was a chorus of voices, the sweet voice and the voices of the children. She peered up into the glaring sunlight to see the singer. She saw an Israeli soldier in his green uniform standing on top of the earthen mound on the Israeli side of the wall, the mound the army drives jeeps up to peer down on those below. He looked like an Olympian god. She thinks he was a Druze, the tiny, nominally Muslim sect that lives near the border with Syria and serves in the Israeli army and border police. “He waved when the song finished,” she says. “The children waved back. Then he disappeared behind the wall.” She was on the balcony a few days later. She was pinning up cloths on the line. The wooden shutters were open into the house. She looked up and saw a soldier watching her from the top of the mound. There was no singing. His raspy voice crackled over the megaphone mounted on the jeep. He ordered her to go inside and close the shutters. She obeyed. Her wet laundry lay behind in the basket. “I live in a zoo,” she says. “They come and watch me. I am a caged animal. They have the freedom to come and go, to look or not look, to be kind or cruel. I have no freedom.” She fears madness. She points to an elderly woman 200 feet away squatting under a fig tree. “The wall was the end,” she says. “When it was finished she went mad.” We watch the woman. She is keening slightly. People are being destroyed by the serpent’s teeth of the wall, springing up from the soil of the West Bank like the evil warriors sown by Cadmus. This for me is the story, not the amount of concrete or coils of razor wire or razed olive groves and villages, but what all this is doing to human souls.
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By Robert, October 27, 2006 at 2:36 pm # Comment #34128 by NM on 10/27 @ 10:05 AM “Israel cannot slap hands to stave off attacks. BRUTALITY IS THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES. If the Arab neighbors put their foot down on Palestinian and contributed a tiny fraction of their oil $$ to society building, and if moderate Palestinians could control the violence of the militant factions, there would today be a thriving Palestine. Extremists on the Israeli side are controlled by a democratic government, but the constant defence of their lives has pushed the settlement movement to where it is today. I wager that if it could be GUARANTEED that there would be an end to the violence, Israel would abandon the settlements and turn over the entire pre-’67 west bank territory in a heart beat. Far from a guarantee, they have seen only that any relaxation in their vigilance is met with renewed aggression.” NM, your comment, “Brutality is the only way to protect themselves” clearly stands out as to where your fanatic Zionist position is in regards to this tragic conflict. I presume that if you were running for an Israeli political or a military position, your campaign slogans would be to boast about the number of un-armed Palestinian women, men and children that you have BRUTALY killed/slaughtered to protect yourself. Your current comments would surely get you much support and votes from many Zionist Israelis who share your position. Are you saying that Israelis have a “right” to use BRUTALITY against the Palestinians? Do the Palestinians have a “right” to protect themselves from Israel’s brutal army & the fanatic armed jewish settlers? How should the Palestinians protect their women, men, children, farmers, homes, schools, hospitals,land, towns, villages, human rights, ... from Israel’s brutal army and policies? Why are the Palestinians subjected to Israeli military laws in the occupied territories while the Jewish settlers in occupied West Bank are governed by Israeli civilian laws? Are you saying that Israel would be willing to pull out of all jewish settlements from all occupied land to pre-’67 boundaries(East Jerusalem,West Bank, Golan Heights, Jordan Valley) as per UN resolution 242 for a guarantee of cessation of violence on all sides? IF you can guarantee the above position from the Israeli government, there would be a cessation of all violence from Palestinians & Israelis. It would end Israel’s brutal occupation. The Palestinians would have their deserved human freedom & dignity. Their daily humiliations at the IDF checkpoints will end. Children will be able to go to their schools, their towns, villages and homes without fear of being killed. Their lives will have some hope for a better future and a normal way of life. NM, Israel is a “Wellfare State” in every sense of the word. It is America’s most favored recipient. While America’s farmers, small businessmen and laborers are struggling to survive, and the US national debt is skyrocketing, the US government, dominated by zionist jews, are draining the pockets and purses of the American taxpayers to support Israel’s socialist economy and its war machine. Israel’s brutal policies would be greatly diminished if our tax dollars & military aid to Israel would come to a halt. The chances for a complete and final peace with justice to both people would surely become a reality. Here is a link for those who would like to watch Israel’s BRUTALITY that NM advocates. Video: Peace, Propaganda, and The Promise Land.
By Noah, October 27, 2006 at 9:32 am # Comment #33959 by Tony Wicher on 10/26 at 8:01 pm The problem i find is that i do see this. I see the bad that comes from war, i see the oppression the palestinians go through. I understand they are hurt and suffering, they are treated as second class citizens. I am not denying this and i think its abhorent.
By NM, October 27, 2006 at 9:05 am # In response to a statement made by Robert # 34089 - “Palestinians have tried every peaceful avenue to win their freedom”. With all due respect Robert, that statement illustrates your narrow view of the situation. Your captors are also your brainwashers. I suppose you think Israeli’s enjoy having their young people fight and occupy. It is done in response to the non-stop agression of the Palestinian’s so-called allies (for 58 years now). They supply arms in a never-ending guerilla war against Israel that has degenerated from bombings and shootings to suicide missions. Israel’s Arab neighbors will NEVER allow a prosperous Palestine as it will not suit their needs. They need to not have their miserable, poverty-stricken citizenry become disgruntled by the emergence of a democratic and modern Palestine. “If they can have that, why can’t we?” These countries are governed by ultra-wealthy royal families and dictators and religious fanatics. The Arab neighbors have done more to prevent Palestinian success than Israel and USA put together. Israel cannot slap hands to stave off attacks. Brutality is the only way to protect themselves. If the Arab neighbors put their foot down on Palestinian violence and contributed a tiny fraction of their oil $$ to society building, and if moderate Palestinians could control the violence of the militant factions, there would today be a thriving Palestine. Extremists on the Israeli side are controlled by a democratic government, but the constant defence of their lives has pushed the settlement movement to where it is today. I wager that if it could be GUARANTEED that there would be an end to the violence, Israel would abandon the settlements and turn over the entire pre-’67 west bank territory in a heart beat. Far from a guarantee, they have seen only that any relaxation in their vigilance is met with renewed aggression.
By Robert, October 27, 2006 at 7:34 am # THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SLOWLY BUT SURELY ARE SEEING AND LEARNING THE TRUTH ABOUT ISRAEL’S DECEPTIONS AND THE BRUTAL OCCUPATION OF THE PALESTINIANS. Michael Phillips: The Story Of My Kidnapping In Nablus. “I Never Feared For My Life.” “My studies and travels exposed me to the Palestinians’ lack of freedom and equal rights. But I knew that to really understand it, I had to live it. And because my government supplies the massive financial and diplomatic support that makes Israel’s occupation of the West Bank possible, I wanted to see the effects of those policies firsthand. Of course, I didn’t experience the occupation like a Palestinian. They are penned into ghettos, surrounded by Israel’s separation wall, and routinely prevented from traveling. I can freely move and can leave at any time. But I’ve seen what the military occupation means. It means that every aspect of your life is controlled by a foreign army. It means waiting hours in checkpoint lines, trying to get to school. It means living under curfew, only leaving your house a few hours each week. It means watching your land taken to build homes you cannot live in and roads you cannot drive on because you are not Jewish. It means rationing drinking water, while nearby Israeli settlements fill their swimming pools and irrigate their lawns. Palestinians have tried every peaceful avenue to win their freedom. The United Nations passed dozens of resolutions affirming their rights; Israel simply ignores them. The International Court of Justice ruled in 2004 that Israel’s separation wall and settlements were illigal. Construction of both continues. After nearly four decades under occupation, some Palestinians, appararently include my captors, are driven to desparate and despicable acts. But most still believe that if Americans knew the truth about the discrimination, segregation and brutal occupation they suffer, we would try to end it, just as we worked to end the apartheid in South Africa. Most Palestinians eagerly embrace Americans like me. They are anxious to tell their story, hoping I will tell others. My Kidnapping, perhaps ironically, has not diminished my resolve to do just that. My tax dollars buy the weapons that kill Palestinian children, destroy Palestinian homes and uproot their farms. My country is the one nation in the world with the power to right this wrong. Our policies should promote freedom and equal rights for Palestinians, to free both peoples in this land of the desparation and hopelessness that led to my capture.” Michael Phillips is an American volunteer from Louisiana who teaches English in the occupied West Bank. Here is the link for the full article/story:
By Spinoza, October 27, 2006 at 6:47 am # Also please see my comments at this thread. It has some important history. Look under Spinoza. http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/200601023_calling _jew_hater/
By Spinoza, October 27, 2006 at 6:09 am # > The fact that a fair number of the Neocons who are Jewish conned the Bush administration into launching the Iraq invasion and occupation certainly hasn’t exactly helped the cause. <<< Well the chances that the Bushites had to be conned by the wily Jews is not likely. I have posted elsewhere on this site the origins of the neo Cons and the Cruise Missile Left and the growth of a Jewish right wing. it was a completely different development to the various factions of the “American” far right
By Tony Wicher, October 26, 2006 at 7:01 pm # Comment #33849 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 10/26 at 1:28 pm Comment #33652 by Noah on 10/25 Noah “You are our equal, not our occupier. You are a child of God, not His favorite. You are one of us in the family of man, join us in the quest for peace with justice and human rights. To hell with your racism and holier than us beliefs. At first we may be a bit suspicious of your change, but in time we will accept it and trust you to the extent that you can be trusted to honor our rights in order to get yours.” This is a beautiful offer, Noah. Do you want peace enough to accept it? Isn’t it strange? You know, I have never been to Israel, but I know and love Jewish people in this country. I know damn well that you are some of the smartest, most progressive people in the world and always have been, among the leaders of civilization all over the world, especially in the United States. Your presence in the civil rights movement of the 60’s was very strong, and this was because of your historic sympathy with oppressed people everywhere. In Israel YOU are the oppressor, but you don’t see this because the terrible historical circumstances under which the state of Israel was formed has distorted your vision. May the light dawn upon you and the Israeli people. May your better natures end this nightmare. May I say that in this endeavor I believe you will have the best wishes and support of practically all Americans, and a more progressive and peace-oriented U.S. administration, if we can manage to get one.
By Tony Wicher, October 26, 2006 at 6:36 pm # Comment #33850 by Noah on 10/26 at 1:32 pm response to comment 33610 “De-theocratize israel? Israel is the most secular country in the middle east.” Yes, Israel is mostly secular. So let’s not call it a theocracy. Let’s call Iran a theocracy. What Israel is, is an apartheid state. Like South Africa, before Mandela. Waiting for its Mandela to be free. Come on, the Arabs in the Knesset are just like token blacks. South Africa had such things too, to prove they were good democratic white supremacists. So let us not talk falsely now: the hour is getting late.
By Kwagmyre, October 26, 2006 at 5:41 pm # In response to post #33863 by TC: “Look at the civil war in Iraq. As long as the land is occupied by Muslims, there will be strife for whose particular flavor of Islam should be in control.” When you examine the current situation in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah it’s certainly NOT an illustration of what you’re talking about but it is a POLITICAL, non-ideological issue arising from the West’s refusal to accept the result of the legitimate election that was held there(which certainly makes a farce of Bush & Co.’s hope to “spread democracy” in the Middle East). The punishment being applied against Hamas has generated serious hardship resulting in so many employees not receiving paychecks. Opposing them is the Fatah who exploited this by acting as an “agent” of the U.S. to try and bolster more support for Abbas and the Palestinian Authority. Many of the Israelis probably delight in seeing this. But they’re clearly sadistic in cutting off the operating expenses that Hamas has needed to pay the civilian employees.
By Noah, October 26, 2006 at 4:31 pm # Frank, Oh here is an interesting video you might want to look at, more general but interesting none the less
By Justice4All, October 26, 2006 at 2:46 pm # Too important to miss… http://www.occupation101.com/Intro_stream_hi.html If you are in the LA area, take some time to attend this screening at the famous Egyptian theatre in Hollywood on Friday November 10th . There will be some Hollywood celebrities in attendance such as Joaquin Phoenix, Daryl Hannah, and Matthew McConaughey among others. There will also be some special acknowledgments and presentations that you won’t want to miss! Synopsis ‘Occupation 101’ presents a comprehensive analysis of the facts and hidden truths surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; and dispels many of its long-perceived myths and misconceptions. The film also details life under Israeli military rule, the United States’ role, and sheds light on the major obstacles which stand in the way of a lasting and viable peace. Unlike any other film ever produced on the conflict -– ‘Occupation 101’ explains the situation in a comprehensive manner and gives audiences a complete context in which to better understand the Israeli-Palestinian encounter. The film depicts the root causes of the conflict through Israeli, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, American, and Palestinian voices that are rarely ever heard through mainstream media outlets. The film covers a wide range of topics—which include—the first wave of Jewish immigration from Europe of the 1880’s, the 1920 tensions, the 1948 war, the 1967 war, the first Intifada of 1987, the Oslo Peace Process, Settlement expansion, the role of the United States Government, the second Intifada of 2000, and also covers the recent Gaza Disengagement of August 2005.
By TC, October 26, 2006 at 1:16 pm # Reply to Comment #33610 by Kwagmyre: I agree that the wall provides only minimal security. You suggest that “de-theocratizing” of Israel is the only long term solution. What about de-theocratizing whatever Palestinian state would be formed (and every other Muslim country in the world)? No one has ever suggested that, because it will never happen. Look at the civil war in Iraq. As long as the land is occupied by Muslims, there will be strife for whose particular flavor of Islam should be in control. And usually the one that gains control is the one that reigns with the most terror. As far as Israel is concerned, that’s a threat. I’m sure you’ve heard the rantings of the Iran’s president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad whose goal it is to eradicate Israel. And that doesn’t come because he feels threatened by them, but rather because he sees it as fulfillment of a prophecy. Having a neighbor with those kind of ideas would freak me out too! And remember, it’s Islam’s vision to “islamitize” the whole world by word or by sword. Israel has never wanted to do anything but be left alone.
By Noah, October 26, 2006 at 12:32 pm # response to comment 33610 De-theocratize israel? Israel is the most secular country in the middle east. Most Israelis are Jewish but non-practicing. Golda Meir once said, we will only have a jewish state when we have Jewish prostitutes. Israel, if you knew anything about it or have ever been there, outside of Jerusalem is as secular as New york. Tel aviv on a friday night is bustling with life, despite the fact that it is the jewish sabbath and money and electricity cannot be used.
By Frank Goodman, Sr., October 26, 2006 at 12:28 pm # Comment #33652 by Noah on 10/25 Noah You say that Jewish properties were never returned. I happen to know a German lawyer who worked for years on the problem of locating and identifying the owners of assets of Jews and others that were identifiable after the war. There was an effort, though it may not have resulted in the return of all assets to anyone who claimed losses. War casualties are never made whole again. Neither can Jews from Nazi Germany. For the experience of Jews in Germany and other European countries should have taught Jews to honor the vow, “Never again!” Jews should not do it to Palestinians or to any other people on Earth. Now a blood debt has been created and will be extracted in another Holocaust some years from now when Arab people become strong enough economically to extract the blood payment in kind. If history means anything it is the lessons learned and if it has consequence of failure to learn the lessons, they will have to be repeated. Safety is not in a state, but in an attitude of self respect and honor. America is no more safe than is Israel for an Arab, or Germany for a Jew. We all live in a perpetual state of changing attitudes. Every human being struggles for his place on the planet. Some must struggle harder than others. Mutual respect and honor are the only protection from the greater perils. Israel, Zionists, and Jews have not learned the lesson, so they will have to repeat the course in order to graduate to human respect. Jews must learn that it is not only Jews that must be protected from the rest of us, it is the rest of us who must be protected from anyone who have elected themselves to the special status of ‘Chosen People of God’, though they cannot qualify for the title. Jews were not protected in ghettos of Germany and Poland. They cannot be protected in ghettos inside Arab towns, nor in a ghetto state on land stolen from Palestine. Jews were not protected in American cities without respect for our constitution and their acceptance to live in mixed neighborhoods and working with people of all religions and races. Sorry, my friend, there is no place to hide. Put your best attitude on the outside and you will be safe anywhere in the world. Get yourselves out of the ghetto attitude of isolation in your ghetto state, your ghetto towns, your ghetto neighborhoods, your ghetto homes, and your ghetto minds. Come on out into the sunshine of acceptance of a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-racial climate of reason, equality and justice and you will need no isolation from your fellow man, and no need for protection beyond the color of your attitude. You will need no Jewish state, no Jewish Defense Force, and no need to kill every Arab you see. You are our equal, not our occupier. You are a child of God, not His favorite. You are one of us in the family of man, join us in the quest for peace with justice and human rights. To hell with your racism and holier than us beliefs. At first we may be a bit suspicious of your change, but in time we will accept it and trust you to the extent that you can be trusted to honor our rights in order to get yours. You make the perfect case for anti-Israel. Palestine is not the reason for the Jewish misery, nor the threat to Jews, but the manifestation of the problem which is in the Jewish state of mind. Jews do not need a place to escape to, but a place to live in safety from their own errors of judgment. Continue on the road you are on and there will certainly be a Holocaust more deadly than the last one. You better learn to live next door to Arabs, Africans, Hispanics, European Christians, Chinese, Indians, and Siberians. They live on this planet too. God gave it to us all. Share it; do not steal it.
By Larry, October 26, 2006 at 10:27 am # Noah, Your discussion points are terrific. My only negative is they are too good for the trash (Jew Haters)you are writing to. Many of them want you to believe they are Just Neutral Pacifists. Baloney, they are just plain Jew Haters!.
By Larry, October 26, 2006 at 10:22 am # Commenting on #33603 by Justice4All You couldn’t answer my questions so you resorted to a personal attack. That is the best one can hope for from a Natural Born JEW Hater. What a Phonie Bastard you truly are! OUT!
By Tony Wicher, October 26, 2006 at 9:49 am # Reply to Comment #33652 by Noah on 10/25 at 9:13 pm “Tony, you say people who stayed in europe were able to rebuild, this is not the case. Anti-semitism was rampant after WWII, people denied the holocaust, the idea of Jews as scapegoats was still there. Jewish properties that were taken were never returned, jews had to start all over, not only in business but in life in general. They were skin and bones after the concentration camps, not only did they have to find a way to survive but they needed a new place to live. The only place that would never allow something like the holocaust to happen again would be a jewish state. The fear is real. In germany, much the same way it is in the US right now, Jews were a part of the society. they were respected businessmen, in parliament, were secular and helping members of society. Even though today jews are safe in the US, who knows what tomorrow can bring.” Noah, my friend, as long as you and most your fellow Israeli citizens think this way, I know what tomorrow will bring. Endless war. Yes, in fact fascism is very close to taking over in the U.S., and the only reason it won’t is that finally there are enough Americans ready to defend their constitution. I am nourishing strong hopes that this is about to happen here. Eternal vigilance is indeed necessary to defend our constitution, our freedom and our democracy. There is always a possibility of failure, but that is the human condition. On the other hand, your alternative, which is Jewish self-defense, is absolutely doomed to failure. It will never produce the security you seek, and what is worse, Israel is becoming tyrant state, and the humanity of its citizens is being corrupted from within.
By Kwagmyre, October 26, 2006 at 8:03 am # Posted by Noah, #33652: “Now to say the palestinians can be equal with the jews and remove the jewish state aspect invites the possibility of another holocaust.” On the contrary it’s because of the OPPRESSIVE nature of the occupation of the Palestinians that the base of support for Israel has been shrinking more and more over the years to the point that they can only count on the U.S. for support and progressively more and more people in the States have come to resent that. The fact that a fair number of the Neocons who are Jewish conned the Bush administration into launching the Iraq invasion and occupation certainly hasn’t exactly helped the cause. If Israel wants to lessen any “possibility of another Holocaust” it would do well to treat Palestinians with the same kind of dignity and respect it would want from the rest of the world.
By Spinoza, October 26, 2006 at 8:00 am # Noah, we know everyone hates the Jews. And yes there was and is (to a much lesser degree) anti-Semitism in the world. BUT Nation-States are evil by their very nature. The Jews don’t need a Nation State they need the acceptance of a doctrine. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. FAIR PLAY Jews don’t need another nationalism. We need fair play.
By Noah, October 25, 2006 at 8:13 pm # Tony, you say people who stayed in europe were able to rebuild, this is not the case. Anti-semitism was rampant after WWII, people denied the holocaust, the idea of Jews as scapegoats was still there. Jewish properties that were taken were never returned, jews had to start all over, not only in business but in life in general. They were skin and bones after the concentration camps, not only did they have to find a way to survive but they needed a new place to live. The only place that would never allow something like the holocaust to happen again would be a jewish state. The fear is real. In germany, much the same way it is in the US right now, Jews were a part of the society. they were respected businessmen, in parliament, were secular and helping members of society. Even though today jews are safe in the US, who knows what tomorrow can bring. They thought they were safe in Germany and they weren’t. The understanding is that a Jewish state will always be there for the jews to escape persecution. Without a jewish state, where would jews go to escape the persecution of soviet russia when the wall came down, argentina after mass pogroms, ethiopia, after ethnic cleansing? It has been proven time and again, the world will not protect jews, jews need to protect jews, and the only way is with a jewish state. Now to say the palestinians can be equal with the jews and remove the jewish state aspect invites the possibility of another holocaust. And by the way, i am not american, Canadian all the way
By Kwagmyre, October 25, 2006 at 6:18 pm # Posted by TC #33425: “I don’t blame Israel for finally protecting itself!” The problem of course is that this is only a pseudo protection giving the Israelis a false sense of security. The only long term, practical solution has to be the creation of one state which will “de-theocratize” Israel. Whichever candidate runs for the Democratic Party for ‘08(Barack Obama perhaps?) will hopefully see that and push for an even-handed approach, leading to the eventual end or at least drastic reduction of ALL military assistance to Israel. Would be even better still if the Democrats win the majority in a couple weeks, THEN start pushing for this ASAP.
By Robert, October 25, 2006 at 6:09 pm # “NOT ONLY THE RIGHT OF WORSHIP IS SACRED IN ISAREL” Amira Hass, Haaretz correspondent: “The main Israeli control method, and the most effective with respect to the occupier, is the limitation of Palestininian freedom of movement to a minimum: within the occupied territories, between district and district, between town and village, village and its land, between Gaza Strip and the West Bank, between abroad and coming back.” “During the past tow weeks, there has been fresh proof of the importance of collective struggle: The U.S. State department has complained about ethnic discrimination Israel practices at border crossings when it restricts the entry of American citizens of Palestinian and Arab origin into the occupied territories. According to a European diplomatic source, the countries of the European Union are preparing a similar complaint against Israel. An American complaint like this- though only against one aspect of the policy of oppressing Palestinian freedom of movement- is a rare thing.” Amira Hass is an Israeli correspondent for Haaretz, one of Israel’s news papers. Here is the link to read this article in full: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo= 778942&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sb;
By Justice4All, October 25, 2006 at 6:05 pm # Comment #33391 Truth hurts; doesn’t it? So you are ticked off because you cannot defend your position with tangible facts and instead you revert to personal attacks without presenting a single piece of factual or intellectual information. That is ok because you just proved that your argument has been nothing but shallow, meaningless and hollow. As for the attacks, I am sure you have figured out by now that I will not dignify them with an answer simply because I do not give a damn about what you think or what you say. Unlike you, I stick to professionalism, mannerism and substance. Later!
By Spinoza, October 25, 2006 at 4:02 pm # The Jewish right wing argument: all de arabs wanna kill us All the arabs wanna kill us. The Arab argument, No we don’t. We can live together. Jewish argument: we need our own country because everyone hates us. Everyone hates us. Never Again!!!
By Larry, October 25, 2006 at 3:52 pm # Comment on #33406 by Tony Wicher You believe that Anti-Jewish activities ceased in Europe and the United States since WW2? As a Jew I can tell you my family has felt the ugly hand of discrimination and in some cases physical attacks just because we are Jewish every year since the Second World War ended. It is no cup of tea living in a country where some decide that bashing Jews is their God given right. Open up your eyes and brain (if you have one) and get real. Please STOP spewing LIES! You make yourself look like the Jerk you ARE!
By Frank Goodman, Sr., October 25, 2006 at 3:52 pm # Re: Comment #33349 by fatima sharmuta on 10/25 For those who do not know Arabic, ‘sharmuta’ means whore. The site linked to is the son-of-a-whore. It does not belong here or anywhere in the civilized world. OK to link on it to see what the Zionists stoop to in their campaign against Islam and Arabs in general as well as against intelligent and gentle people everywhere. This may not be traced to a Zionist, but it smacks of the message that they promulgate. The ‘sharmuta’ should learn to write English even if she cannot read it, if she is going to try to send a meaningful message to the world of English speaking people.
By John Kane, October 25, 2006 at 3:22 pm # In reaction to comment 32198. You are obviously a Jew Hater with no understanding of history. We can have a rational dialogue when we leave people like you out of the discussion,
By TC, October 25, 2006 at 9:58 am # While the effect on Palestinians is sad, it is not Israel’s fault. The Palestinians should blame their Arab cousins for the current situation. The Palestinians have been pawns of wealthy Arab nations pursuing the destruction of Israel. Israel has allowed the Palestinians to live in peace within their borders for decades, despite the threat of terrorism fommented by outsiders. I don’t blame Israel for finally protecting itself!
By Tony Wicher, October 25, 2006 at 9:23 am # Reply to Comment #33225 by Noah on 10/24 at 8:45 pm “Tony, your idea is an interesting one. The issue that remains is that if the palestinians are to return it would not be long until they were to outnumber the jews living in israel. This is the concern. What would happen if palestinians out number jews? The fear is that the state will no longer be jewish. The Jews have one state in the world, Israel, arabs/muslims have dozens, all of which have denied the palestinians any opportunity to join and become a part of their societies. Now we’re talking, Noah! You know, you are the first supporter of Israel in this forum that You put your finger on the real fear of Israelis, the fundamental reason for the existence of Israel as we know it - the idea that Jews must live in a majority Jewish state and be protected by a Jewish army in order to be free from persecution. After World War II, it sounded good at the time to millions of Jews, who adopted it and migrated to the Holy Land. That was probably a mistake. They should probably have tried to rebuild their lives in Europe. They were so preoccupied with their own suffering that they did not even notice the people already living in the Holy Land - Arabs, Jews, Christians - who had their own way of life and were unlikely to appreciate a huge immigration. Jews who did not migrate to Israel but remained to rebuild democracy in their own countries did a lot better. After all, the Nazis were defeated. The whole world was horrified by the Holocaust. Anti-Nazi laws were passed and enforced throughout Europe. Even today people like myself belong to organizations dedicated to the extirpation of every last Nazi that dares to raise his head. Today in Europe and America Jews are not persecuted. They occupy many of the most influential positions in society. They are much more secure than Jews living in Israel protected by a Jewish army. And why is this? Because instead of military force, they rely on democracy and constitutional law to protect them. They and their non-Jewish fellow citizens have learned to stand side by side and preserve their mutual freedom and security by defending their constitution. Arabs and Jews living in the Holy Land must learn to do this also. If they do, they can truly call it the Holy Land, Zion or whatever else they want. Until then, it will never be anything but a bloody piece of land. Don’t say this is not possible. It is possible. We can make this happen. The darkest hour is just before the dawn. The historic moment is here. The time is ripe for this idea.
By Larry, October 25, 2006 at 8:35 am # Comment on #33369 by Justice4All You wouldn’t know HISTORY 101 if it hit you full square on the face. The reason the Arabs are in the position they are in is because of their determination to “WIPE OUT” the Jews. They massed and fought many wars against them since 1948 to include one on the holiest days of the year in the Jewish religion. When you lose wars you shouldn’t have started your bound to lose the respect and concern of the side that you attempted to destroy. Try to educate yourself on the terrible truth---"HISTORY 101”; The Arabs have tried in vain many times to kill ALL the JEWS in ISREAL and that is still their objective. Take that and shove it up your pea brain you flunky of History 101. Talk about not knowing anything about history, your a complete strike out.
By Justice4All, October 25, 2006 at 7:38 am # I know that some are still struggling with History 101 and I feel with you.. really!!. That is why I am sending you the links below to help you with your homework; hopefully you can one day pass and move on. Some of you know the truth very well but are either in denial or are simply hypocrites. Some simply are not well informed and deserve to know the truth. The maps should be self explanatory but here are some pointers to help you better comprehend the situation. http://www.mmwatch.org/maps/Palissue10.jpg shows a map of the West Bank, which has been occupied since 1967. The non-contiguous brown areas are what Israel is offering as a Palestinian state in the West Bank. A “State” that is more like ghetto communities that resembles a slice of Swiss cheese, and to top if off there is a surrounding wall to further isolate such communities from the outside world. Personally, I love Swiss cheese but this somehow has real bitter taste. The blue lines in http://www.mmwatch.org/maps/Palissue11.jpg show roads and highways slicing through Palestinian areas that can only be used by Israeli settlers in most cases. http://www.mmwatch.org/maps/Palissue12.jpg shows a map of left-off areas offered to Palestinians in 2001. This is part of the continuous stream of “generous” offers being extended to the Palestinians. http://www.mmwatch.org/maps/Palissue2.jpg shows a chronology of events since 1948. No need to comment here. Now imagine metropolitan Washington DC where people need permits to travel from Georgetown to North East or South West. Imagine a sovereign Vatican split into similar areas that are not geographically connected with European control over it and a surrounding wall that controls the movement of people and goods in and out. You can philosophize and keep diverting from the main issues forever, but the reality remains the same: As long as there is occupation is Palestine, there will never be peace and Palestinians will keep resisting humiliation, oppression and injustice. After all, this is only human. I hope you learned something today. Have a good day!
By fatima sharmuta, October 25, 2006 at 6:46 am # The right of return .... The right of return for jews from the middle east and europe for stolen properties is maybe 1000 times greater than that of the arabs. Arabs live along jews in israel. Its the moslem world that forbids any non moslem from living along them, with those same rights. You cannot compare the two differences. Goto europe and wine about your islamic rights and riot, that what you do!! Thats what your doing… why dont you ALL go back home and live the lives you want to impose on the rest of the world there? The pope was right. Your reactions proved it. Oh and learn to read one day to.
By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2006 at 10:35 pm # Reply to Comment #32797 by Justice4All on 10/23 at 7:35 pm Thanks, Justice. I had no idea Carter’s thinking was so far advanced. Yes, the Zionist illusion of Israel is beginning to fade. They have almost as few supporters left here in America as the Bush administration. The handwriting is indeed on the wall.
By NM, October 24, 2006 at 9:04 pm # Since 1948 there has been an all-out war against Israel by it’s neighbors. The Palestinians were urged to sit tight and wait for the combined efforts to destroy Israel and then they will be fulfilled. In the meantime there will be no Palestine and you will all be kept in camps and none of you will be allowed to assimilate into the societies of Jordan or Lebanon or Egypt or Syria. Further, there will be very little money from your oil-wealthy neighbors lest you build a better world in the west bank or Gaza. Why would The Saudis or the Syrians or the Iraqis or Jordanians want to keep Palestine from becomming a reality? Would the royals and dictators and religious zealots like to see a beautiful and succesful democratic Palestine only to foment discontent amonst their miserable citizenry? So they keep attacking through the years and the Israelis must finally (1967) take posession of the ground from which the attacks are launched. The leaders of the “so-called” allies of the Palestinians wish to keep them in agony perpetually to keep the anti-Israel cause alive to rally their own disenfranchised, poverty-stricken people about an issue that has very little relevence to their states of misery. If the Palestinians would have not been perpetually attacking at the behest of their “allies” and if one scintilla of the regional oil-wealth had been directed toward nation building there would have never been a need for an occupation and there would be a wonderful nation of Palestine today coexisting with Israel.
By Noah, October 24, 2006 at 7:45 pm # Tony, your idea is an interesting one. The issue that remains is that if the palestinians are to return it would not be long until they were to outnumber the jews living in israel. This is the concern. What would happen if palestinians out number jews? The fear is that the state will no longer be jewish. The Jews have one state in the world, Israel, arabs/muslims have dozens, all of which have denied the palestinians any opportunity to join and become a part of their societies.
By Robert, October 24, 2006 at 7:43 pm # Comment #33057 by Noah on 10/24 @ 2:21 PM. “Further, i hear screaming and complaining about Israeli aggression, israeli oppression, Israelis are to blame. Have you ever been to israel? do you know what life is like on the streets? Have you met the arabs living in Israel? No, cause i have.” Noah, you can read about my trip to Israel & the Holy Land in my comment #22581 which was submitted on this forum on 9/09 @ 1:53 PM. I don’t think that I need to comment further regarding above. Its in black & white! I think that you know what I have concluded regarding your questions/comment!!! Are you equating the hassles that you are facing in Israel regarding being searched to Israel’s brutal occupation, daily humiliations, abuse of human rights & international law , home demolitions, assasinations, kidnappings, 10,000 prisoners in Israeli jails with most of them without any charges, barbaric IDF checkpoints...etc...to what the Palestinians have to endure on a daily basis? For fairness & references to above, I am providing the link to B’Tselem the Israeli information center for human rights in the Occupied Territories. Feel free to check out their factual information & their statistics. Choose any topic.
By Spinoza, October 24, 2006 at 3:41 pm # Basically there are two possiblities: A devastating war in the region in which many many people on all sides will die or a new “bi-national” country that is not ruled by Jews or Arabs and in which they agree to share the land and that the Arabs are paid reparations for land taken. PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS: A very reasonable argument as to why the so called two state solution is dead.
By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2006 at 2:39 pm # Further reply to Comment #32737 by Noah on 10/23 at 4:47 pm “This idea of returning to a time of peace is a fallacy. There was no time of peace in the middle east. So your solution would be to eliminate israel all together.” I want to RECONSTITUTE Israel as a true multiethnic democracy rather than a “Jewish state”. I do not want to “displace” anyone. I want to “place” three or four million Palestinians without displacing anyone. How can this be done? Only be sharing. Only by by learning to live together. No amount of your “strong military, fantastic technology” will stand for long against this moral imperative. Israel will rot from within. “If the Palestinians wanted peace, they have it, all they need to do is ask.” They have asked. But they have not done so in a way you could understand, so I am asking for them. A truly secular multiethic democracy would be acceptable to them, though there are Islamists that would not like it. Do you think it might be acceptable to a majority of Israelis as well?
By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2006 at 2:13 pm # Reply to Comment #32737 by Noah on 10/23 at 4:47 pm reply to #32671 by Tony Wicher on 10/23 at 1:53 pm “The thing is, that won’t happen. Why do you demand israel be removed? That is justice? this idea of returning to a time of peace is a fallacy. There was no time of peace in the middle east. So your solution would be to eliminate israel all together. And then what about the displaced Israelis? What about the millions more refugees that would create? Oh, you would like to give the jews back the land they lost in the holocaust, or in soviet russia? No, cause that would just displace more people. If the jews were offered all of germany and told, here take it we wronged you, there would be no problem. Thing is, THAT WON’T HAPPEN. “ Noah, my esteemed good friend, I love the way you state your position. It makes it very easy for me to explain mine to you. I am not for displacing ANYONE who currently lives in Israel. Do you understand? NOT EVEN THE SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK. NOT EVEN PEOPLE WHO MOVED THERE YESTERDAY. Israelis should all stay where they are. What they SHOULD do and MUST do is invite the displaced Arab refugees to live there with them, either in their communities or in others built nearby. Both peoples must learn to live with each other, side by side in peace. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. That is my position. Do you see what I am saying? Do you see why your objections do not apply to what I am saying? Do you see why what I am saying is not utoptian, it is the only possible solution, the only solution that CAN WORK and WILL WORK? That is the vision I have.
By Noah, October 24, 2006 at 1:21 pm # Well Robert, you would be well off and it seems that like your lack of knowledge and proof in the field of Israel palestine relations carries over to other departments as well. The first time i visited this site was no more than a week ago, through a youtube link, so accusations of being someone else or a dual account are rediculous. Further, i hear screaming and complaining about Israeli aggression, israeli oppression, Israelis are to blame. Have you ever been to israel? do you know what life is like on the streets? Have you met the arabs living in Israel? No, cause i have. Not only are israelis constantly searched and accused of carrying weapons, (at every train station, supermarket, bank, bus station, mall, or any large area every single person is searched), but people in border towns are constantly watching for falling missiles. There are terrorist warnings daily. If there is even a package, a plastic bag with a pair of pants in it that looks at all suspicious, full city blocks are shut down for hours to make sure it isn’t a bomb. Poor palestinians, yes, they are suffering, but DO NOT act as if they are the only ones suffering or that it is entirely Israel’s fault. There would be no need for a wall, searches, checks, checkpoints, or any of this is the palestinians were willing to live in peace.
By Kwagmyre, October 24, 2006 at 8:19 am # Just more evidence of the same, this taken from democracynow.org: Israeli Military Hides Report Confirming Expanded Settlements
By Kwagmyre, October 24, 2006 at 8:13 am # Posted by Larry #32898: “Did you actually say something you Phonie Jew hating Bastard? I think you stated pretty explicitly that I am right.” Of course I “said” something. I challenged you to research this topic so you’ll find out for yourself how misguided the views are that you obviously cling to so tenaciously. Unless you’re hopelessly stubborn, I think there’s hope for you yet!
By B.E. Lantz, October 24, 2006 at 7:51 am # There is one fact these articles and your ilke absolutely refuse to acknowledge. And that is, the most horrific murderer of Arabs are not Christians, it isn’t Jews, IT’S ARABS. Arabs murdering Arabs in the name of Allah because they can’t get along and there is no “imperialistic” foot on their throat has gone on for centuries. The presence of that foot is the only thing that ensures their peace. The oil wealth of the world can’t even do that. And when the world turned that wealth over to them, that was the most insane act of human history that has ever been perpetrated upon stupid humanity.
By bj, October 24, 2006 at 5:03 am # Oh, boo-hoo. I’m crying for the lady with the $200,000. house. I don’t think there are too many people in Egypt or Iran or Saudi Arabia et al who have been able to afford such luxury. Poor oppressed Palestinians. The wall has made it more of an effort to launch bombs, murder innocent families, babies. In Egypt, she’d probably be living in one of the grand cemeteries, with a plot all her own on which to build her villa. Poor thing. They’ve made her life so hard under this terrible oppression.
By Robert, October 24, 2006 at 4:37 am # For those who want to watch, see and hear academic truth & integrity to the Palestine Israel conflict, you need to watch & read transcript of Prof. Norman Finkelstein. The video is about 1 hour long. Here is the link: Video w/Transcript: Q&A;& end of talk,(Santa Crus,ca).
By Larry, October 24, 2006 at 4:23 am # Comment on #32770 by Kwagmyre Did you actually say something you Phonie Jew hating Bastard? I think you stated pretty explicitly that I am right.
By Robert, October 23, 2006 at 7:21 pm # Folks, we may have a guest with a new name on this forum. He is commenting about Israel’s technology and if the Palestinians wanted peace, all they have to do is ask for it. Hmmmm… those words/comments have been mentioned previously on this forum; it surely sound like Barry’s comments. Do you all remember him? Can’t prove it, but there is that great possibility.
By Larry, October 23, 2006 at 7:18 pm # #32568 by Noah Just a few words of advice. There is No way to have a reasonable conversation of any type with Lunatic Jew haters and Jew baters. Just call them what they are and let it go. They are AHOLES of the first degree.
By Larry, October 23, 2006 at 7:12 pm # TO the Idiot Kwagmyre #32770 I knew you would turn out to be a lying piece of crap.
By Justice4All, October 23, 2006 at 6:35 pm # I thought this piece is pertinent to our debate. I hope Jimmy Carter would not be accused of being a Jew Hater or Anti-Semite. By Jennifer Siegel As Republicans step up their efforts to paint Democrats as increasingly hostile toward Israel, former President Jimmy Carter is releasing a book on the Middle East, titled “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.” | ||||||||
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