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Chris Hedges
Chris Hedges, whose column is published Mondays on Truthdig, has written twelve books, including the New York Times best seller “Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt” (2012), which he co-authored with the cartoonist Joe Sacco. Some of his other books include “Death of the Liberal Class”...








 
 

Israel’s Barrier to Peace

Editor’s note: In this Dig, the former Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times and author of the bestseller “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” examines the way Israel’s security wall has ripped a mortal gash in the lives of Palestinians living in its shadow, and argues that there can be no hope for peace in the Middle East as long as America continues to aid Israel in its dehumanizing practices.




The rage and extremism of the Islamic militants in Lebanon and the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza appear incomprehensible to the outside world.  The wanton murder, the raw anti-Semitism, the callous disregard for human life, including the lives of children and other innocents, permit those on the outside to thrust these militant fighters in another moral universe, to certify them as incomprehensible.

But this branding of these militants as something less than human, as something that reasonable people cannot hope to understand, is possible only because we have ignored and disregarded the decades of repression, the crushing weight of occupation, the abject humiliation and violence, unleashed on Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel because of our silence and indifference.  It is the Israeli penchant for violence and occupation that slowly created and formed these frightening groups.

The failure by the outside world to react to the years of brutal repression, the refusal by the United States to intercede on behalf of the occupied Lebanese and Palestinians, gradually formed and galvanized the radicals who now occupy the stage with Israel, answering death for death, atrocity for atrocity.

Those inside these zones of occupation pleaded over the years for help.  We refused to listen.  And once they burst through these barriers, enraged, bloodied, bent on revenge, we recoiled in horror, unable to see our complicity.  We asked them to be quiet, to be reasonable, to calm down, and when they did not, their blood heated by years of abuse and neglect, we condemned them to their fate.

The barrier built by Israel in the West Bank is one of the most tangible and important symbols of this long humiliation, this strangulation of the Palestinians by Israel.  To understand the role of this barrier is to begin to understand the rage it has now unleashed.  Understanding is not excusing, but until we grasp that these militants do not come from another moral universe, until we face our own complicity in their creation and the awful violence now underway in Lebanon and the occupied territories, we cannot begin to understand the gross injustices that fuel these militant movements.  It was, after all, the $10 billion in loan guarantees by the United States that made this barrier possible.

Ending the loan guarantees, as long as they were used to build settlements and seize even more Palestinian land, would have done more to blunt the rage and violence of militants than all the iron fragmentation bombs Israel has dropped on the hapless civilians in Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza.

But we react too late.  We react to the manifestation of rage rather than the cause of rage.  We are as morally compromised as those we condemn, as incomprehensible to them as they are to us.  And until we become comprehensible to each other there will not be peace in the Middle East.




There is a 25-foot-high concrete wall in Mrs. Nuhayla Auynaf’s front yard.  The gray mass, punctuated by cylindrical guard towers with narrow window slits for Israeli soldiers, appears from her steps like the side of a docked ocean liner.  It is massive, cold and alien.  The dwarfed shrubs, bushes and stunted fruit trees seem to huddle before it in supplication.  I struggle to make sense of it, the way I struggled to make sense of the smoldering rubble that was the World Trade Center a few hours after the planes hit.

We do not speak.  Mrs. Auynaf lives with the wall.  She is as drawn to it as she is repelled by it.  It absorbs her.  She goes out on her second-floor balcony every morning and looks at it.  She implores it for answers, as if it is a Sphinx that will answer the riddle of her new existence.

“My old life ended with the wall,” she tells me.

The wall, built by Israel a year before, blocked her from the neighboring Israeli town of Kfar Saba where she used to shop.  It cut her off from Israel.  It made it hard to reach the rest of the West Bank.  The lone Israeli checkpoint with its guard towers, floodlights, concrete barriers, dust, stench, crowds, special pass cards, intrusive searches, rude remarks by border police were more than she could bare.  She tried to pass through once.

“I could not stand the humiliation,” she says.  “I turned back.  I went home.  Now I never leave.”

The wall reduces her world to its ugly perimeter.  Her five boys beg to go to the seaside.  The wall makes this impossible.  No one goes to the sea anymore.  There are days when the checkpoint is sealed, days after suicide bombings or days when the Israeli soldiers shut it down abruptly without explanation.  On those days she sometimes gathers up her children and walks the empty streets, wandering like prisoners in a circle.  Other families do the same.  It gives her a sense of movement.  Families pass each other two, three, four times in an afternoon.  All are thinking the same thoughts.

“The town would rent buses to go to the sea,” she says.  “We would go for the day.  We would stand in the water.  We would look at the rocks and the waves.  This was before.”

The house is pleasant.  It was finished at the start of the uprising, when business was good and peace seemed possible.  The floors are marble.  The kitchen has a counter and white appliances.  The sofa and chairs have muted blue and beige stripped fabric.  We sit in the living room.  A large window fan, set on the floor in front of the open door, provides a weak breeze.  The door frame is filled with the expressionless gray face of the wall.  It draws our eyes to it, the way a muted television screen distracts me during conversations.  Sometimes we turn to look at it, as if it is a presence in the room, someone who should be offered sweet tea or a glass or water or asked to leave.  We want it to speak to us.

Her son Ibrahim, 6, sits on her lap.  He has a scar on his leg.  He was shot two years ago by Israeli soldiers.  It happened at dusk.  The soldiers were firing at a group of Palestinian workers who were trying to slip into or out of Israel without proper work permits.  He was watching from the front yard when a bullet went astray.  He stays close to his mother, especially when he hears the sounds of gunshots.  He does not like to leave home.  The world frightens him.

The family was one of the wealthiest in Qalqiliya before the wall ruined them.  They spent $200,000 on their home, with its sloping terra cotta tiled roof, its pleasant garden.  It looks like the homes in the middle-class suburbs outside of Tel Aviv.  Once the wall went up, the family’s car parts business was wiped out.  Mrs. Auynaf’s husband makes less than 10% of what he once earned.  He has trouble shipping car parts into the walled enclosure.  He often cannot reach suppliers.  Customers, those in Israel and those in other areas of the West Bank, can no longer get to his store.  He does not have a permit to drive the family car through the checkpoint.  He must stand in line, often for several hours, to go in and out.  He is away now.  He is trying to salvage his business, but it cannot go on like this.  She hopes he will be home tonight.  But she does not know.  The lines are long.  Sometimes the soldiers get tired or bored or surly and turn people away until the next morning.

“We talk about how we are going to survive, what we are going to do,” she said. 

She hangs laundry on the balcony.  Her only view is the wall.  The other morning she was hanging laundry to dry and she heard singing.  The song was by Fadel Shaker, a popular Arab singer.  The singer had a sweet voice.

“You who are far away, why do you forget those who love you?” the words go.  “When I fall asleep I think only of your eyes.  I think only of you.”

Her five boys were in the yard.  They began to sing.  There was a chorus of voices, the sweet voice and the voices of the children.  She peered up into the glaring sunlight to see the singer.  She saw an Israeli soldier in his green uniform standing on top of the earthen mound on the Israeli side of the wall, the mound the army drives jeeps up to peer down on those below.  He looked like an Olympian god.  She thinks he was a Druze, the tiny, nominally Muslim sect that lives near the border with Syria and serves in the Israeli army and border police.

“He waved when the song finished,” she says.  “The children waved back.  Then he disappeared behind the wall.”

She was on the balcony a few days later.  She was pinning up cloths on the line.  The wooden shutters were open into the house.  She looked up and saw a soldier watching her from the top of the mound.  There was no singing. His raspy voice crackled over the megaphone mounted on the jeep.  He ordered her to go inside and close the shutters.  She obeyed.  Her wet laundry lay behind in the basket.

“I live in a zoo,” she says.  “They come and watch me.  I am a caged animal.  They have the freedom to come and go, to look or not look, to be kind or cruel.  I have no freedom.”

She fears madness.  She points to an elderly woman 200 feet away squatting under a fig tree.

“The wall was the end,” she says.  “When it was finished she went mad.”

We watch the woman.  She is keening slightly.  People are being destroyed by the serpent’s teeth of the wall, springing up from the soil of the West Bank like the evil warriors sown by Cadmus.  This for me is the story, not the amount of concrete or coils of razor wire or razed olive groves and villages, but what all this is doing to human souls.



Next Page: The barrier is the most catastrophic blow to the Palestinians since the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

Dig last updated on Jul. 25, 2006


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By mapol, November 18, 2011 at 12:08 am Link to this comment

“it is all the jews falt of all the wars around the world… and also why did jews
go to palestine and steel theri land where they in britan before that and how do
they say its theri land isnt that just a lie every one knows the truth but their
scared to say it. wht did america go to iraq they just wanted to protec isreal and
steal all the oil they have. their will never be peace if the america keeps on
supporting isreal. isreal is one of the most problems in the world.”

It’s one thing to criticize and condemn Israel for her brutal occupation policies
in West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, with the abuses of human rights
by the IDF and the rightwing Israeli Jewish settlers residing in the Palestinian
terrotories, not to mention the IDF’s demolition of Palestinians’ homes,
humiliating checkpoints and overall ugly treatment, killing and maiming of
innocent Palestinian civilians, but to say that the wars all around the world is
the fault of the Jews, and even the Israelis is preposterous, and rather bias, to
boot.  Americans went into Iraq for oil, not to protect Israel. 

Having said the above, Israel must withdraw her troops and rightwing Israeli
Jewish settlers from West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem…now, give up
control of the waters and airspace in those territories and allow the Palestinians
to create their own independent, sovereign nation-state in those
territories..alongside Israel and NOT in place of it the way too many people
want, these days.

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Mark E. Smith's avatar

By Mark E. Smith, July 12, 2011 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

I read this article in Hedges’ book and wanted others
to see it, so I found it here and posted a link on
Twitter. What I didn’t realize is that the book
doesn’t include the first eight paragraphs, which
ruin a perfectly good article, so I had to apologize
to my Tweeps. The Hasbara about extremism and anti-
Semitism is particularly disgusting. If that was
written by Hedges, I hope he’s seen the light by now.
If it was written by TruthDig editors, shame on them.

What really galls me is that without those first
eight paragraphs, the article is so outstanding that
despite being extremely low income, I sent a $5
donation earmarked for Hedges. I’m hoping that the
reason those paragraphs don’t appear in the book is
possibly that Hedges had editorial control over the
book, but not over the website. Otherwise, I’ve just
thrown away money I sorely need for food.

Born and raised Jewish myself, I believed Israel’s
lies for a long time, and since this article was
written five years ago, it may be that either Hedges
or the editors, whoever was responsible for those
first eight paragraphs, is/are guilty of nothing more
than being slow to learn. But I suggest that it would
be a good idea to remove them, now that the whole
world knows the truth. After all, this website does
want to continue calling itself TruthDig, right?

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By bigkoala, January 24, 2011 at 8:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Looks like the Israelis may have some explaining to do.
And these revelations don’t look good for the
Palestinians, either…

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By parrot, July 6, 2010 at 4:57 am Link to this comment

Chris Hedges:  bona fide member and leading moron of the NY Nazi Times.  What an outrageously biased article he just published about the walls being erected in Israel for the purpose of keeping its population safe from the constant missile bombardment by those muslim animals.

By the way, what about the Hevron massacre of 1929?  How many walls were there at that time?  And what about 1948, when Israel was legitimately partitioned only to be attacked and slaughtered by the muslim fanatics and terrorists.  There were no walls then.

Chris:  you are a disgrace and a moron.  You should be shot and sent to fuck the 72 virgins that all muslim morons get when they die.

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By dll0211, November 28, 2009 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

EVVVVVVERY group thinks they’re CHOSEN; and the Jews are not the ONLY victims of horror. Their nightmare was indeed a HORROR; but so are the others’ nightmares just as real. I don’t like fanatics on ANY side of an issue. Just because you live in Israel, doesn’t make every single thing you do “perfect and legitimate,” except in your own minds.

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By dll0211, November 28, 2009 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Often, the TRUTH hurts.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., September 11, 2008 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment

ed_tru_lib, January 20 at 4:46 pm

This is a pure example of the problem.

You will find many examples of offers to the Jews to live in peace and equality. Palestine, even today offers freedom of worship, peace and justice for all in a land dear to all three Abrahamic religions. The origin was to accept Jews from Europe and other lands as equal citizens in a secular state with religious freedom for all. That condition was rejected by both the Zionists and Islamists. Christians had already learned their lesson from the failed Crusades that were launched to claim the Holy Land for Christians.

Far more Arabs are killed by Israeli Jews than the few victims of suicide missions to reclaim the lost lands and homes. The killing of Arabs by Jews is with modern war machines directed against children, old women, old men, and the sick and lame. The solution to the problem is not in our lifetimes. It requires decades of adjustment to freedom with equality and justice for all. I live in a country where we declared that idea over 200 years ago. We have not reached the level of tolerance and cooperation required, but we have come a long way. Israel cannot exist as a Jewish state, or as an Islamic state. It could not exist as a Christian state. America could not exist as a White, European, Christian state for over 200 years. We had to adjust to the idea of equality of Native Americans (Called Indians), descendants of former black slaves from Africa, Asians, and a number of ethnic minorities. Justice requires that those who made this land their home before Abraham came out of Babylon are compensated for the injustice and deprivation of their properties and homes and allowed to return in equality with decent treatment. The cost will be high, but not as high as continuing the fight for exclusive occupancy by Jews or even a state where Jews are superior before the law to all other citizens.

Walls are not the solution, or the answer. The original sin was when the refuges from European anti-Jewish attitudes invaded Palestine with weapons furnished by Britain and America. You cannot drive people out of their homes of centuries without a fight.

When you call those who advocate a peace with justice in a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic state Israel-haters and anti-Semites, you violate true justice and common sense. It is the Zionists and Arab-haters and their Zionist loving fundamentalist Christians who are the nutcases. The rest of us see liberty and justice for all as the norm, with all prejudice and discrimination as the abnormality in civil society of decent people.

Even so, those of us who advocate for the Palestinian cause of peace and justice for all include peace and justice for Jews as well. We admit that they have a right to be there on the same basis as anyone else. Those Jews who were there before 1948 as well as all newcomers are equal in the eyes of the peace movement. They, too, must accept equality in a civil state in democratic traditions that grew out of all the human rights violations of the past. In the 21st Century it is too late for bigotry from either side. So long as Israel violates the rights of some of its citizens in the name of the state religion, she will never live in peace with herself, much less with anyone who is not a Jew. So long as Islamists insist upon a state based on their religion, there is no peace. I call upon all to join in multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic society with peace, equality, liberty and justice for all in the land holy to all.

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By stan kohls, August 21, 2008 at 3:13 am Link to this comment
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Looking at what’s going on in Gaza these days, can you really blame the Israelis for wanting to wall themselves off from that insanity?
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By Tony Wicher, May 18, 2008 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

This must be an international effort where the whole world takes responsibility, including Arab countries. This effort must be led by the U.S. I agree that the U.S. responsibility is the greatest, greater even than Israel’s, because the U.S. is the most powerful and without U.S. support Israel would never be able to do what it has been doing. Although Obama has made his commitment to Israeli security very clear, I am counting on him for an even-handed approach based on human rights and international law to lead the world to peace.

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By JSD, May 17, 2008 at 2:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The solution to injustice against the palestilnian Arabs has to involve the U.S. As I have written so many times before, the first and most important goal is to guarantee and end to the violence. I believe that this can only be accomplished by an international peace-keeping force, and should be paid for entirely by the U.S. because it has been U.S. support for Israel and acquiescence in Israeli violence that has caused so much suffering among both Israelis and Arabs.

After this start, a serious effort by the world community can begin to look for a permanent solution to all relevant problems facing these peoples, inasmuch as they have not been able to solve their poblems themselves.

U.S. involvement is mandated because of our responsibility for the consequences of supporting Israel with so little reservation. The U.S. is therefore as much responsible for the suffering of these peoples as are the Israelis.

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By ed_tru_lib, January 20, 2008 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment
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Well I see the only responses are from the nutcase Israel-haters/anti-semites, as usual, which instantly belies any unlikely validity they might otherwise have had. The wall works because it has been made harder to kill innocent Israelis, and thus are innocent (or even not so innocent) “palestinians” also spared when Israel just doesn’t need to punish the evildoers since they were prevented from doing evil. 1drees and Frank Goebelles Sr. will never have anything constructive to add to this or I strongly suspect, any rational discussion of any issue. Anyway someday there will be no need for the wall-the haters and murderers and pseudo-religious maniacs will be gone and Israel and her law-abiding neighbors will live in the peace that has been all Israel has wanted since its creation.

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By Barry, November 11, 2007 at 4:31 am Link to this comment
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I bet about 1500 times more criminals have been subdued by police than police have been subdued by criminals.  Does that mean that police are wrong to go after criminals?

Israel withdrew from Gaza and had agreed to withdraw from the West Bank, and the Palestinians showed them that they couldn’t live side-by-side peacefully.

Israel made a mistake occupying the West Bank and Gaza, and has spent the past 15 years trying to give them back.  If the Palestinians would just take them peacefully, everyone would be a lot happier.

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By neutral ned, November 10, 2007 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

For Ed Tru Lib
#62541 by ed_tru_lib

Being that I’ve decided this stuff in the region will never end, I’ll just offer a few observations. Israel, a potentially massive economic center of activity in the Middle East is wasting its energies. As for Ed’s thoughts on the necessity of Israel’s aggressive 60 year policy, my info is that appr. 1500 Palestinians have been killed for every one Israeli. Using the term terrorist makes no sense in this context. The sophistication of Palestinian warfare is such that it took them till the late 1990’s (saw some article back then) to figure out that their homes were being audio monitored and cars of the leadership radio-tagged to make them easy pickings for helicopter attack. Ed may believe what he’s saying but, to the outside observer, the occupation seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

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By 1drees, September 18, 2007 at 11:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel and peace should never even be in the same sentence, these two things are that far apart. And similarly Zionism or Zionists and Truth should never be in the same sentence either.
Israel and Zionist just want to gobble everything up and kill everything.
MOSSAD motto is “WAR BY DECEPTION” then eg it was practically observed by the attack on USS LIBERTY which almost resulted in Nuking of Cairo, so so much for the people who claim Israel is “nice” and “civil”, its just that they are Zionists who were brainwashed by their moms into believing that crap and their moms beat that into them. this is a brainwash that is threatenning World preace and Humanity.
BOYCOTT EVEYTHING ISRAELI AND BOYCOTT EVEYTHIGN ZIONIST. SAVE HUMANITY & WORK FOR WORLD PEACE.
To all Americans the name Rachel Corrie might ring a bell and indicate the civility and normalness of the Zionistic agendas. the day most american people wake up there might be another exodus of Zionists again and i pity them that even after 4000 years of idioices they still havent learn how to get along with people and they stil havent learnt to give up on their stupid ideas of robbing people and trying to get away with lies. even after time and time again of punishment and banishments from so many lands.
God’s Israel was destroyed by God’s approval as the people that he had once chosen had started faulting on massive scale and its a pity that disease still lives on and not only that mom’s preach it to their kids and beat that cheating sense into them.

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By Spinoza, May 10, 2007 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Just wanted to post this in case any one is stopping by:


<object width=“425” height=“350”></param></param><embed src=“http://www.youtube.com/v/WWyJJQbFago” type=“application/x-shockwave-flash” wmode=“transparent” width=“425” height=“350”></embed></object>

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., April 6, 2007 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment

Re: #62541 by ed_tru_lib on 4/06

That may well be true that a barrier to peace could also keep out a few fanatics bent upon killing a few innocents by blowing themselves up in market places. It hardly proves the need for such a barrier or that it significantly contributes to peace and cooperation with the people who were dispossessed by the Zionist thugs in 1948. Unfortunately the barrier does not stop the helicopters, F16’s and gangs of IDF thugs bent upon blowing up Palestinian homes and killing the children in their homes and the streets of Occupied Palestine. Bravo! Cowards can now rest peacefully while the Palestinian starve.

The barrier remains as a block to peaceful cooperation in the formation of single state where all can live in peace, equality, and freedom of worship. Palestinians long ago invited the peaceful return of Jews to Palestine. Zionist did not come in peace, but to ‘cleanse’ Palestine of Palestinians so that Jews could live in their ghetto state with UN sanctioned violations of human rights, Geneva conventions, and other acts against the Palestinians who stayed and face the music.

All walls eventually come down, not in peace, but from failure of purpose. The purpose of the Barrier is to assure a ghetto state for Jews. As though they did not learn their lesson in Europe where ghettos were created by Jews to protect their own identity and to protect Christians from the need to administer normal civic affairs of Jews. Ghettos did not work in Europe any more than American ghettos work to keep black people isolated from their white brothers and sisters. The experiment of a ghetto state of Jews alone with nobody to bother them while the quarrel and fight with each other will not work either. History will surely wipe out the cancer on the human race or this species will become extinct.

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By ed_tru_lib, April 6, 2007 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well its been a few months now, and what a surprise-far fewer Israelis or Arabs are being killed, there are far less instances of religious-crazed terrorists/oil & military industry puppets trying to sneak in to Israel to blow people up…AND…Israel hasn’t had to retaliate against such attacks…AKA…SURE LOOKS LIKE THE WALL IS WORKING. I guess that’s why theres been such a loss of apparent interest in posting to this dig-things have just gotten too peaceful.

But the same rules always apply-all the terrorists and their supporters, as ever, have to do is lay down their rifles, rocket-launchers,suicide body-bombs, flight plans (into buildings) etc etc, and the Israelis will lay down their weapons, and soon after, when some trust has finally been established, tear down the wall. For now, and tragically the foreseeable future the wall must continue to be like the Colt 45 once had to be in the old west, when the evildoers just wouldn’t listen to any reason-the “peacemaker”

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By Barry, February 9, 2007 at 2:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Great point Bert!  I don’t see many San Diego residents screaming to take down the wall with Mexico, or Columbia students/faculty pushing to take down the wall that closes off Columbia from Harlem.

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By Bert, February 8, 2007 at 7:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think good fences DO make good neighbors, I think borders have a purpose, and while there might be people that scream bloody murder about it all, at the end of the day, when there’s 2 countries that don’t get along, or there’s big cultural differences, or a big difference between them in terms of income or level of technological progress/religious stuff, borders are a necessary evil to keep people from going at it against each other. Like 2 kids in the same house that squabble, ‘go to your room’ still has merit, both macro, and microscale. This story is about Israel and Palestine, but the concept is pretty universal. Take care of the borders, and a lot of other problems will resolve themselves.

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By gasman, December 21, 2006 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oops…looks like I accidentally signed on to a KKK website. What a bunch of racist losers. Spend more time on blogs: I’m sure you feel like you’re a real contributor to society.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., December 5, 2006 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #40827 by Frank Goodman, Sr.  on 12/05

Sorry, this was intended for another site.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., December 5, 2006 at 7:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

(Continuation of previous comment)

You can purchase your oil needs from anyone who has it to sell. For that, you can export products needed by those who have too much oil, but not enough oranges and high definition TV. You can manufacture automobiles rather than machine guns to sell to people who need transportation more than they need to defend themselves from rabid humans who invade their land. When most Jews get used to living with others, they can join the United Nations with the promise to abide by all UN resolutions.

The best way to fight against any threat to destroy Israel is to prove by peaceful means that Judaphobia is unjustified. And do not mistake defense of Islam, as Judaphobia. Also, do not mistake US resolve for imperialism unless we promote the idea that our president is the ‘leader of the free world’. If America proclaims or claims to be the ‘only remaining superpower’, put her in her place in the United Nations and make her behave in a civilized world of peaceful intent. Don’t give up an inch of Israel to Russia, Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. Let all the Palestinians come home to help defend that land from all encroachments by militants and violent Zionist regimes. Let us join in the condemnation of Fascism, Nazism, totalitarianism wherever it is found.

Then, we shall surely enjoy peace and prosperity ever after.

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By Tony Wicher, November 25, 2006 at 9:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #39266 by Robert on 11/22 at 9:21 am

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By Fadel Abdallah, November 25, 2006 at 5:13 am Link to this comment
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To the enlightened individuals on TruthDig Blog, please check the hard facts on Zionism as presented by Alen Heart in his new two-volume book, “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews,” on the Web Site: OpposingDigitsVlog

Manchester, England. 2nd November 2006. Alan Hart speaks at a public meeting of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). He speaks about his two volume book “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews”.

The original venue, St Peter’s Chaplaincy, informed PSC that it was unwilling to host the meeting–2 days before the event–despite the fact that the booking had been paid for many weeks in advance. Anticipating this, the PSC booked a reserve venue–the Friends Meeting House.

This is the first of four 10 minute clips of Hart’s opening presentation.

Alan Hart, a young 63, has been engaged with events in the Middle East and their global consequences and terrifying implications - the possibility of a Clash of Civilisations, Judeo-Christian v Islamic, and, along the way, another great turning against the Jews - for nearly 40 years: * As a correspondent for ITN’s News At Ten and the BBC’s Panorama programme (covering wars and conflicts wherever they were taking place in the world). * As a researcher and author. (His first book Arafat, Terrorist or Peacemaker? was published by Sidgwick & Jackson in 1984 and subsequently in several updated editions over a decade). * As a participant at leadership level, working to a Security Council background briefing, in the covert diplomacy of the search for peace.

Alan Hart thus brings to the pages of his latest book, Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews, and to the debating chamber, a deep understanding of why, really, the Countdown to Armageddon is on and how it can be stopped.

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By Tony Wicher, November 24, 2006 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Reply to Comment #39159 by Robert on 11/21 at 6:12 pm

Chris Hedges: Bring Down that Wall.

FYI, Chris Hedges has a new report, “Bring Down that Wall”, on truthdig.com, posted November 20, 2006.

It already has a forum / discussion. “

Thanks, Robert. I’ll post there - Tony.

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By Robert, November 22, 2006 at 10:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Guess where “Ken Schreier” who exited this forum is at these days?

He has surfaced at Chris Hedges: “Bring Down That Wall” report forum. He is spewing the same ole line of, you guessed it, “anti-semitism” and that high moral route.

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By Spinoza, November 21, 2006 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment
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There is a connection between sex and war.


http://www.redefiningseduction.com/

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By Robert, November 21, 2006 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris Hedges: Bring Down that Wall.


FYI, Chris Hedges has a new report, “Bring Down that Wall”, on truthdig.com, posted November 20, 2006.

It already has a forum / discussion.

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By yours truly, November 21, 2006 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment
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When a revolution comes it’s as if time is compressed, with changes that previously might have taken centuries, instead occurring seemingly at the blink of an eye.  And at the time always unexpected, as in Eastern Europe two decades ago. 

Which is why “we got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative” (from a popular song fifty or so years ago), or we’ll miss the boat on the Kucinich bill to cut off all spending on the Iraq war.  True, up to now, we’ve always been out-foxed by the powers that be &/or sold-out by our so-called leaders.  But doesn’t have to be so, because we (each and every one of us, that is)  make sure that Congress passes Kucinich’s bill and we’ll be into one of those accelerated phases of history, with TROOPS OUT NOW at the top of our agenda, followed by Congress impeaching our president plus his subsequent trial at the International Court of Criminal Justice for his crimes against humanity.  And after that?  Empire collapses.  And then?  It’ll be up to us. 

Afterwards, of course, there’ll be the usual, “Who would have thought?   

  .

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By Spinoza, November 21, 2006 at 8:23 am Link to this comment
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I don’t know exactly about energy forces but that can have a psychic effect.

Zeitgeist refers to the “climate of the times”, “the buzz in the air” the intellectual climate, the main idea, the idea that ideas matter. Sex is part of that climate and one of the most positive feelings and ideas that motivate mankind. Pleasant sex is most always associated with peace. Rape is most always associated with war.

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By Spinoza, November 21, 2006 at 8:12 am Link to this comment
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> THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO NEED TO WAKE UP!

The Jewish People need to wake up. We are being manipulated by severe right wing forces.

Fight Fascism

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By Robert, November 20, 2006 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Frank,


I am an American, living in North Carolina, who had worked in the Middle-East about 12 years ago.

I have visited the Holy Land and have seen with my own eyes some of what the Palestinians have to endure with Israel’s brutal occupation.

It was only after reading “They Dare To Speak Out” by former congressman Paul Findley, that I began to understand why our U.S. policy & most of our elected representatives support Israel’s brutal policies in the Middle-East.

ITS AIPAC CONTROL & MANIPULATION OF CONGRESS WITH DECISIONS WITH RESPECT TO ISRAEL & MID-EAST.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE IN THE DARK WITH RESPECT TO AIPAC & OUR MAINSTREAM NEWS MEDIA.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO NEED TO WAKE UP!

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By Spinoza, November 20, 2006 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment
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There is a need to rethink left and right.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15685.htm

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By Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #38979 by Spinoza on 11/20 at 11:15 am

I checked out the Global Orgasm web site. Spinoza, you surprise me! You really believe in such a global energy field. Oh, how unscientific of you! This is some sort of childish superstition. Some sort of psychic nonsense. Now no one will take you seriously. Except me, I guess. I find the paradigm of a field of mental or conscious energy that blankets the globe and is powered by the individual brains of all humans on the planet - indeed, by every organism on the planet - to be most useful. This natural field which has always been there is greatly magnified and intensified by the Internet. Information is flying all over the place from one mind to another. We can use this theory to spread our idea of the secular multi-ethnic democracy in the Holy Land. Now that I know I am dealing with a fellow “mystic”, I will continue to post elements of this theory. I think what Global Orgasm is doing can be developed much further. I dare to hope that we can really make a difference this way.

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By Donald Tilley, November 20, 2006 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment
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I just wanted to voice a word of support for Tony Wicher’s idea of declaring a “hudna” until both Palestinians and Israel’s can seriously consider the one, multi-ethnic, secular state solution. 

Building a wall is certainly not the right, long-term approach. It didn’t work in Berlin, it won’t work along the U.S. Mexico border, and it won’t work in Israel.  Instead of building walls, both sides should be building bridges of mutual understanding and respect. This wall is an ugly scar on the Holy Land, and, in my option, is an affront to all three Abrahamic religions.

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By Spinoza, November 20, 2006 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment
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This is a very good idea. Change the zeitgeist

http://globalorgasm.org/

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By Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 10:58 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #38938 by Kwagmyre on 11/20 at 8:25 am

My current location in time and space is:

640 E 4th St.
Ontario, California 91764
Phone: (909) 988-9530
email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)


Feel free to contact me any time.

Kwaggy, we live only a short drive apart. Perhaps we will meet in person some time. You sound like my kind of Jew. Do you and your cousin ever do Thanksgiving as well as Jewish holidays? I have my Thanksgiving every year with a huge family of secular Jewish-Americans and it’s our biggest holiday of the year. In any case, next time you sit down with your cousin, it would be a most interesting and valuable experiment to see if you could discuss the subject at the dinner table in a full and honest way without acrimony but as two people who really love each other as they love the whole world and its people. What matters most is that there be deep communication between you, and that you depart with love.

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By Kwagmyre, November 20, 2006 at 9:25 am Link to this comment
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Posted by Frank, #38873:

“I am American living in Florida. Could each of us give a general geographic identity without danger to our person? I sense that we are from widely different national origins.”

I’m a native of L.A.,Calif., Jewish(but non-religious like many are), live in the San Fernando Valley section and mentioned earlier that only in recent years did I become progressively enlightened about the true state of affairs in Israel.  Apparently I kept hearing how Israel “had stolen” territory from the Palestinians from so many sources, all of them credible I might add.  But I have a religious cousin, we’re on close terms(in fact the closest among the cousins I have on that side of the family) lives nearby, and when she invites me over for such occasions as the Passover or Rosh Hashonah, the subject of Israel doesn’t come up for the most part. I often fantasize about how I’d “confront” her if we ever DID get into a serious discussion about this, but in the interests of maintaining some semblance of family unity we most likely would have an amicable exchange I’d hope.

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By Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 9:06 am Link to this comment
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(continuation of previous post)

Lieberman’s defection would appeal to Bush as one of those middle-
finger masterstrokes Jr. is so fond of, since it would postpone the
day of reckoning for his Iraq policy and also poke a finger in the
eye of his meddling father. So I would expect that Joe is on the
receiving end of some serious surreptitious wooing from the White
House.
However, with the voters disgusted with Republican management of the
war, uniformed military desperate for an exit strategy, and the Bush
41 crowd moving toward domination of the Iraq process within the
executive branch, I wonder if Lieberman will find opportunities for
his brand of sanctimonious obstructionism.
If he switches to the GOP caucus and forms an alliance with McCain
to prolong the Iraq war, might the realist crowd around Bush I, in
the ultimate irony, engineer the switch of a moderate Republican
senator to the Dem side, to keep the dead-ender neo-cons from
driving—or at least gridlocking—the Iraq disengagement?
That would put a smile on my face.

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By Tony Wicher, November 20, 2006 at 9:04 am Link to this comment
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Here’s an interesting post about the U.S. political situation right now. Lieberman certainly is in a key postion, unfortunately. If only he could be convinced that Israelis would really be a whole lot better off if they adopted our one multi-ethnic democracy policy! Then it would be adopted with bipartisan support. Of course, this would require a miracle of God!

Joe Lieberman is smiling.
Why?
The Iraq Study Group appears to be ascendant. Iran and Syria are no
longer considered to be our biggest problems. Iraq, once hailed as
our greatest victory and proudest moment, is our biggest problem now.
Rumsfeld is out and Gates is in. Gates is an ISGer with a history of
engagement with Iran going back to Iran-Contra and, more recently,
talk-to-Teheran wonkishness.
World aggravation with Israel’s shenanigans in Gaza got an anti-
Israel resolution to the Security Council. John Bolton had to veto
it.
Tony Blair came out in favor of dialogue with Syria and Iran.
The subtext of all this activity is that the “Clean Break” vision
for the Middle East—the idea that America could achieve a foreign
policy triumph in the Middle East by tilting toward Israel and
eradicating hostile regimes in Baghdad, Damascus, and Teheran—is
in a shambles.
No wonder Ehud Olmert jetted to Washington to make sure that
Israel’s tough-guy policies in the Middle East—everything from
brutal police actions in Gaza to attacks on Hamas in Palestine to
preparations for another Lebanon incursion to calls to punish Syria
to threats to bomb Iran’s nuclear program (that is quite a list,
isn’t it?)—would not become collateral damage in Washington’s
anxiety to make nice with Syria and Iran to give our troops the
pretext and breathing space to get out of Iraq.
I doubt he found much of the way in reassurance in Washington. The
right-wing Jerusalem Post laid out the situation in grim detail.
Meeting with the Lame Duck in Chief generated the usual rhetoric
directed at Iran, but does Bush really call the shots anymore?
Dick Cheney, the power behind the throne, appears to be in retreat,
his efforts to rescue John Bolton—and the whole unilateralist, US-
led security agenda Bolton promotes in the UN—coming to naught.
The only pro-Israel force that came out of the mid-term catastrophe
strengthened was Joe Lieberman, by virtue of his control of the
swing vote in the Democratic caucus that could bring the Senate and
its committees back to a fifty-fifty deadlock—broken by Cheney.
I have a feeling that Lieberman’s self-identification as the paragon
of independence, courage, and rectitude comes from his belief that
he is Israel’s protector in Congress.
That—and supporting the Iraq war as an instrument of regional re-
engineering and Israeli security—is more important to him than
loyalty to his party and keeping faith with the millions of
Democrats who supported his basically crappy campaign for Vice
President.
Lieberman’s public utterances calling for more troops to go to Iraq
so we can win the darn thing reflect not denial but desperation.
Pumping more troops into Iraq doesn’t improve the chances of victory
there. It simply postpones acknowledgement of defeat, removes
pressure to demand concessions of Israel, and keeps the pot boiling
in the Middle East until something miraculous happens—or an
attack can be ginned up against Iran to put our Middle East policy
back firmly on a war footing.
Lieberman may think that he can control the pace and direction of US
policy in the Middle East by threatening to caucus with the
Republicans if the Democrats push for a withdrawal that he considers
too precipitate, or one that sacrifices Israel’s security interests
and policies in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon to extortionate
demands by Iran and Syria.

(continued)

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By Spinoza, November 19, 2006 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I signed the petition

Lewis Beyman

————————————————-

I recommend the following:

—————————————————


EMPATHY

http://opposingdigits.com/vlog/?p=999

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 19, 2006 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To all who supported justice and peace with honor and human rights. I am among those who see a one democratic secular state as the answer. It seems that those of us who challenged the idea of Zionism as the cause of the disruption of the lives of all the people in the Middle East, have at least for the time being in this comment space, which has turned into a kind of a forum on Palestine, have driven off the dogs.

It has made me wonder who we are individually. Where do we call home? I have seen minor differences in our approach, but no major barrier to peace in our responses. I am American living in Florida. Could each of us give a general geographic identity without danger to our person? I sense that we are from widely different national origins. It shows that the world could come together in peace after all. That was the promise of the United States in its inception and it was the promise of the United Nations in its inception. The world does tend to approach the ideal of democratic justice for all over time. I wonder why it takes so long.

Robert Kennedy said, “I see things as they are and wonder why. I dream of things as they could be and wonder why not.” I have lived to see descendants of former African slaves gain equal rights with all other Americans under law, though not in personal experience. I have seen women move up the ladders of success. I have seen civil rights gains over all of America in my lifetime. I have seen the rise of Jews to safety and security where anti-Semitism ruled only 50 to 60 years ago. I have seen the arrival of people from all over the world until America is truly a multi-cultural nation with civil rights for all.

We have a setback now with the rise of George Bush to challenge American values, but he too will pass. There is a strong movement to return to the values we had prior to 9/11. The day of practical Zionism to get the Jews out of Europe and America by giving them a ghetto state of their own is over. There is no more talk of sending the ‘Negros’ back to Africa. And no talk of driving the Native Americans back to their reservations. This is one nation with diversity and justice for all. Thank you all. If this fizzles out for lack of opposition, we have all won. Please place one more comment telling where you are home.

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By Kwagmyre, November 19, 2006 at 11:09 am Link to this comment
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I wrote in post #38641:

“It points to just how tall an order it will be to change the thinking of those who would already seem most disposed to a change of heart or attitude on Israel/Palestine.”

So to put my money where my mouth is, I later emailed Nancy Pelosi and recommended she read “One Country” so she might acquire a more balanced view on the Israel/Palestine issue. 

We’ll see if she follows through.  I ain’t holding my breath though.

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By Fadel Abdallah, November 19, 2006 at 9:14 am Link to this comment
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To all the Noble Warriors for Peace with Justice for the Palestinians on this forum,, please consider signing the following petition so we can become part of a larger movement.
==============================================
Palestinians are the Priority: an open statement of commitment to the Palestinian Solidarity Cause
Posted: 18 Nov 2006 07:09 AM CST
There are individuals within the Palestinian solidarity movement seeking to create divisions by:

deliberately shifting focus away from Israel’s war crimes and its supremacist Zionist ideology;
imposing unilateral agendas by presenting both sides as victims;
sabotaging service to the just cause of the Palestinian people;
ignoring the issue of right of return for the Palestinians;
utilising the platform of the Palestinian discourse to argue about anti-Semitism, which is not a Palestinian problem and not created by Arabs.
Our primary and single concern is solidarity with the Palestinian people.

As ethical human beings we consider it our obligation to:

do all we can to allow the information to be diffused as widely and as quickly as possible;
ensure the argument of the oppression and disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people stays in the forefront;
present as clear and honest a picture as possible of the meaning of Zionism and the Jewish State;
to cross the divide and to unite in our war against the Zionist crime.
We accept and believe in equality of all persons, regardless of their race, religion, political or other orientation. We believe that full and unconditional support of the Palestinian people is a condition sine qua non for activists to adopt, and we recognise that their attachment to their homeland is a fundamental and unalterable condition. To that end we advocate for one unified State with equal rights for all its citizens.

Any attempts at censoring reasoned critique of Israel and Zionism must be refused a priori, as it is in conflict with the goal of seeking to protect and support the Palestinian people - as their empowerment is the only way to peaceful coexistence for all the populations of the Middle East. Any attempts at dictating what the Palestinians should do will be looked upon with great circumspection and suspicion. Palestinians themselves wish to construct their own future and are not pawns to be shifted on the chessboard.

We demand free speech for sincere critics of Zionism and call for an end to campaigns created in order to ostracise its most vocal critics. Smear campaigns will not be tolerated, as we recognise that they are the instrument of choice of Zionists, and detract energy from our work. We will not hesitate to expose the instrumental usage of them, no matter the claimed principles of those who are engaged in creating such campaigns. On the other hand, open dialogue and reasoned argumentation is welcome and greatly encouraged as a tool to understanding and collaboration.

The indigenous people of Palestine are facing extermination by the hands of the Jewish State, and the world keeps silent. The sooner we draw public attention to Israel’s needless wanton destruction, the sooner we can do away with this horrifying, insufferable situation.

PLEASE, sign the petition if you share our concerns.
http://www.petitiononline.com/grosveno/petition.html

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By Robert, November 19, 2006 at 7:27 am Link to this comment
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Swedish Human Rights worker viciously attacked by Israeli settlers.

They were confronted by 100 settlers in small groups, who started chanting in Hebrew “We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!”

Take a look at the horrifying bloody pictures & read the details of how brutal Zionism really is among the settlers & IDF.


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=687

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By Geronimo, November 18, 2006 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment
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Hmm,  downstream now nearly four months plus a thousand comments from where “Isreal’s Barrier To Peace” started its truthdig run, seems there not only are no more postings from supporters of the Jewish settler-state Israel,  but that instead those of us still hanging around on this thread all see justice for the Palestinian people (along with TROOPS OUT NOW) as the key to peace on earth and goodwill to all living beings.  And what’s more, that it’s up to us.

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By Kwagmyre, November 18, 2006 at 9:53 am Link to this comment
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Posted by Robert #38660:

“Frank, Tony, Kwag, Justice4all, Fadel, Geronimo & others, your hardwork, efforts, integrity & focus during this journey defending the TRUTH, FAIRNESS, JUSTICE, HUMAN RIGHTS, UN CHARTER, INTERNATIONAL LAW, PEACE & Equality to all MANKIND is to be commended.

I am honored to be amongst you & to be on your side. The side of TRUTH, JUSTICE & PEACE for ALL.”

Rob…......

Speaking for myself and the rest, I can assure you it’s mutual.  Our strength lies not just in numbers here but in getting out the necessary message in this forum and however we can do it so that it progressively resonates with more and more people.

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By Robert, November 17, 2006 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment
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Greetings to all!!!

Frank, Tony, Kwag, Justice4all, Fadel, Geronimo & others,  your hardwork, efforts, integrity & focus during this journey defending the TRUTH, FAIRNESS, JUSTICE, HUMAN RIGHTS, UN CHARTER, INTERNATIONAL LAW, PEACE & Equality to all MANKIND is to be commended.

I am honored to be amongst you & to be on your side. The side of TRUTH, JUSTICE & PEACE for ALL.


Here is an interesting piece of news coming out of Scotland.

“Israeli ambassador visit to Scotland cancelled in face of planned protests - We will protest every visit by Israeli state agents to Scotland.”


Here is the link:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=682

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By Kwagmyre, November 17, 2006 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Posted by Tony #38489:

“This has to be the one. How do we get to them? How do we put a bug in the ear of leading Democrats?”

Tony…......

I’m with ya 100% on this.  But I read only yesterday that Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean and at least a few other Democrats have disassociated themselves from ex-Pres. Jimmy Carter since the latter has just now come out with a book on Israel’s Apartheid policies. Also, I was so “smitten” by Barack Obama until I read in “One Country” that he too hasn’t been so sympathetic with the Palestinians cause. 

It points to just how tall an order it will be to change the thinking of those who would already seem most disposed to a change of heart or attitude on Israel/Palestine.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 17, 2006 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment
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To all of you who remain glued to this site, Salaam.

To Ken (Comment #38254 by Ken Schreier on 11/15)if he is still with us, Salaam. I do not know if we influenced you for the better, but you certainly filled a need as Kwagmyre says. (Comment #38323 by Kwagmyre on 11/16)

I feel that you all complemented me in presenting my theme of peace and justice for all. That includes Ken and other Zionist oriented respondents who did not seem to understand that this is not against Jews in a state on the land of Palestine. It is not even against the name being called Israel. It is and was always for a state for all people who wish to call it their promised land, homeland, holy land, or home. The challenge was to adhere to the principles of the United Nations Charter and the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

We aroused Ken et al when we undertook to ridicule the notion of Zionism as it applies to that land in violation of those principles. I also rejected an Islamic or a Christian state there as I would reject similar religious interference in secular affairs in my own nation, even when it is the religion I have chosen to represent my relationship with God.

Any state is a system to recognize and to regulate the relationships among human beings and their environment. By incorporating common concepts of decency and respect for the person of human beings, I believe that we serve God, our Creator and Sustainer. With God’s help, we redeem ourselves with honor to our fellow citizens of the world and to God. Peace! Wa aleikum salaam.

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By Tony Wicher, November 17, 2006 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Further Reply to Comment #38535 by Jack Clegg on 11/17 at 8:44 am

So, what is so radical about the idea of a multi-ethnic, secular, American-style democracy in the Holy Land? I mean, how mainstream can you get? Properly explained, the great majority of the country would get behind it. It’s so all-American, there would be bipartisan support - like the civil rights movement of the 60’s in the heyday of the Democratic party. If somebody could buttonhole Bill Clinton and propose it to him, I just know he would go for it.

But the idea seems so radical that most people would not seriously consider it. Why is this? Well, it is radical because it is inconsistent with the existence of Israel in its current political form. It is inconsistent with the concept of “Jewish self-defense” which is the founding idea of Israel, unfortunately. This idea is that Jews should live in a majority Jewish state and be defended by a Jewish army. This idea, understandable given the Holocaust, cannot be the basis for a modern state.

At this point, Zionism is deservedly in the worst disrepute world-wide of its whole disreputable existence. The whole world hates them, as well they should. Their only ally is lying phony Bush, who has been exposed to the whole world, even the American people, as beneath contempt. Why in the world should a new Democratic administration support them? The U.S. need oil. Israel does not have any. So the only use Israel has is as an ally to take over Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. and control the Middle East oil supply. So when the Democrats get in will they continue the Republican policy, which has also, unfortunately, been a bipartisan policy under Democrats and Republicans for more than 50 years? If they do, God help us. We’re probably doomed. But on the other hand, Democrats could become a real peace party. They may conclude that attacking Iran, etc. and continuing the military alliance with Israel are not the way to go. I do believe that is the natural inclination of the Clintons (both of them) Barak Obama, and other leading Democrats. Maybe they have already thought of this idea of supporting a one multiethnic democracy solution instead of a two-state solution. If not, somebody has to explain it to them. We have to get this message out now, because with the change in power the political situation is fluid and it is the time for new ideas.

If the U.S. adopts this policy, the whole world will support it. Seeing this, I believe the Israeli people would throw out their own phony lying murdering bastards and elect some leaders who would negotiate a real peace based on real justice and equality.

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By Tony Wicher, November 17, 2006 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #38535 by Jack Clegg on 11/17 at 8:44 am
You said:
“As long as America is seen as the supporting structure for Israel, the Arab states and their people will never see America as a friend but will see us as the enemy.”


The U.S./Israeli alliance in its current form is a devil’s bargain, like some marriages. It brings out the worst in both. They encourage each other in their moral depravity, and in the end they pull each other down to destruction. This is a generation of vipers, both here and there. They are both hypocrites, lying phonies using each other.

So what shall we do? Here’s the idea that has come to me and others independently, and which we are trying to spread: a secular, multi-ethnic democracy in the Holy Land. I prefer to put it this way, rather than call it “Israel” because everything, including the name of the place and its flag, would be up for negotiations. Whatever is necessary to achieve peace and justice should be done. To change a stupid flag or a stupid name is nothing by comparison. I favor a written constitution, which Israel does not have at this time. This would be written by a consitutional congress made up from representatives of all religions and ethnicities. The first principles written into it would be guarantees of nondiscrimination on the basis of religion, ethnicity, gender, etc, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and above all, the separation of church and state. You know, like we have here in the good old USA. You know, the reason that lying phony Bush has been claiming he attacked Iraq - to spread “freedom and democracy” while the same lying phony Bush does everything possible to undermine freedom and democracy both here at home and all over the world. Oh yes, and lying phony Bush also says he did this to protect our “noble ally” “the only democracy in the Middle East”, Israel, whose leaders like Netanyahu, Olmert, etc. are another bunch of lying phony murdering bastards.     

But now, at long last, the tide is turning. I would not say they have woken up, but the American people have at least been slighly disturbed in their slumber. They put in the Democrats, hoping at least for something better than Bush. Democrats do have at least some sense and are somewhat more competent and less corrupt, but they have very little balls. They want a new idea, but they are also typical political cowards who are afraid to really lead the country. They always want to take a poll first. It is their worst weakness.

(Continued in next remark - this one is too long)

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 17, 2006 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Harris’s article is where we are. This is where we are from. It is the way to where we should be going. Not the one sided or even the multi-sided compromise with values to satisfy selfish and parochial prejudice, but justice as a one size fits all solution. Equal justice is the answer and the solution. Let equal justice be the fact and the political expediency to the resolution of this aching problem.

I take a quote from a longer article:

“Only equality and respect for justice and international law can guarantee peaceful community and are the only guarantors of a permanent and secure existence of the State of Israel and the future State of Palestine – and of the safety of Jews among us and all over the world.

The human rights formulated in the UN Charter and the UN declaration of human rights emerged against the backdrop of Nazi barbarism, in particular the industrialised racial mass murder of Jews, Sinti, Roma, and other minorities. Both documents recognise only the equality of people without exception. That must also apply for the parties to the conflict in the Near East.”

http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=1569&lg=en

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By Jack Clegg, November 17, 2006 at 9:44 am Link to this comment
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As long as America is seen as the supporting structure for Israel, the Arab states and their people will never see America as a friend but will see us as the enemy.  Israel doesn’t care one lick about us, but uses us as a supporter, a defender and even a lightening rod.  We supply them the weapons.  We are always one sided at the UN.  We take on their enemies.  To the Arab nations, Israel and the U.S. are one.  A more even-handed approach could possibly reduce the hate of Islamic fundamentalists towards us and their desire to kill us.

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By Tony Wicher, November 16, 2006 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply Comment #38323 by Kwagmyre on 11/16 at 9:33 am

Kwag and Justice,

This particular discussion may have died down, but the idea which we have been supporting, vis., a new peace initiative for a multi-ethnic democracy in the Israel, is what must be kept alive and spread. Now is the time for this idea. The Democrats are looking for a new idea. This has to be the one. How do we get to them? How do we put a bug in the ear of leading Democrats? Anybody you know able to buttonhole Bill Clinton for an hour or so? For now, we can keep checking back here in case there are any interesting new posts, and also look around the Truthdig site for other interesting digs and discussions on this or related topics.

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By Tony Wicher, November 16, 2006 at 11:25 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #38254 by Ken Schreier on 11/15 at 6:27 pm

Ken,

Thank you for being a part of this discussion. May we see eye to eye and find peace together.

Tony

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By Justice4All, November 16, 2006 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #38323 by Kwagmyre

Maybe some can refer us to other challenging forums we can participate in.

Regards.

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By Justice4All, November 16, 2006 at 11:57 am Link to this comment
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Comment #38276 by Tony Wicher

My sincere apologies. I guess I did not read it thoroughly.

Best.

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By Kwagmyre, November 16, 2006 at 10:33 am Link to this comment
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Well, with Ken now departed, this topic will run out of steam and we’d only have the like minded rational people posting.  Don’t know if that’s enough to keep things alive.

If it is coming to an imminent end, just want to say it’s been a pleasure sharing sentiments with the rest.

Kwag

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By Tony Wicher, November 16, 2006 at 1:03 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #38071 by Justice4All on 11/14 at 8:39 pm

I have not been posting lately because I realized that those psychopaths are not even worth my time. One thing, however, caught my attention in this blatant post by Ken:

“Yes, Kwaggy, in my book God does not play favorites either. That is because we are modern, civililized people. Our religion is more advanced. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who practice a form of Judaism that is perfectly consistent with modern civilization. Those are the Jews that must drag there bretheren into the 21st century. My strategy is for the United States to give them a push.”

Well if you read your post again, you realize that you are nothing but a racist, xenophobic bigot who has no place in a modern civilized world. You and your likes are blinded with bigotry and insularity and should be placed in some sort of a mental institution. Thanks to information technology and the internet because it exposes bigots like you. You cannot hide from yourself anymore!!

Justice4all: I completely agree with your sentiments. However, the quote you attributed to Ken was written by me. What I meant was that you and I, Kwaggy, are modern, civilized people, whatever religion we practice, if any. To us, Joshua was a warlord and what the Jews did to the inhabitants of the land was genocide. But hey, that’s how they did things in those days, I guess. As the human race progresses, their religion and their god become more civilized. Obviously, nowadays no particular people or nation or religion can claim that God is on their side without being a laughingstock. Relgion and its god or gods nowadays belongs to the whole human race. I am just making fun of Ken for being a fundamentalist. I’m just saying that there are plenty of modern, civilized Jews, some religious, some secular, who are not throwbacks or reactionaries, and not in thrall to this pernicious idea of “Jewish self-defense”, and I am expressing the hope that these good people will somehow prevail over their atavistic bretheren. Are we in sync? 

-Tony

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By Ken Schreier, November 15, 2006 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment
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Well Frank Goodman, Sr. - Time for me to leave this discussion !
I am happy that you are not an atheist and that you have a personal relationship with Hashem !
May Hashem bless you and your family !
May Hashem answer your wish for peace in the world soon !
I also have a personal relationship with Hashem which is far more rewarding then any religion can give me !
May you continue to seek a peace in the Middle East that will not lead to the nations in that region destroying the Jewish people who live there !
Take care,
Sholom my friend !

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By Kwagmyre, November 15, 2006 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment
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Posted by Robert #38149:

“Here is a book for you to read written by Norman Finkelstein, “Beyond Chutzpah”: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.”

Well, then that makes two books for Ken to become “enlighted” by.  Again I would unequivocally recommend his reading “One Country” so he is presented with this opportunity to conceivably expand his perspective on the situation there.

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By Robert, November 15, 2006 at 9:40 am Link to this comment
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Re: Comment #38068 Ken Schreier on 11/14

“I have given you the pleasure of my insights and I will no longer respond to your foolish comments!”


Hey Ken…the TRUTH has a lasting sting to it when it comes at you from each source & direction.

If you are familiar with Israel’s policy / law regarding Christianity, the comments & facts (#38060) that I placed on this forum yesterday, 11/14/2006 are the TRUTH.

It looks like you deliberately avoided to reply specifically or refute them. Why?

I think that everyone on this forum knows that your refusal to aknowledge & refute my facts directly reflects your position & reply.

Avoiding the TRUTH is a sign of mental weakness…and other mental disorders!!!

Tell the TRUTH if you are capable of it!

If you were an IDF enlistment, you would shoot & kill Palestinian children just simply for throwing stones at their brutal occupiers.

Your statement “I have given you the pleasure of my insights…etc” is a symptom of a Bi-Polar disorder.

Ken…you are a zionist fanatic who would lie compulsively and cry “anti-semitism” to silence the TRUTH about your “terrorist state of Israel.”

Here is a book for you to read written by Norman Finkelstein, “Beyond Chutzpah”: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.

Ken…just keep foaming at the mouth just like you have been on this forum!!!

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 15, 2006 at 7:08 am Link to this comment
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Re: Comment #38068 by Ken Schreier on 11/14

In your comment to Robert you referred to me as an ‘atheist’. By definition, an atheist is one who does not believe in God. Note that I am not afraid to say God. You are so much in fear of God that you distort the spelling of the name. I suggest that you just refer to God as Hashem. At least it gives a spelling that can be pronounced. It also fulfills your fear of saying God out loud.

When I use the name of the deity, I use a meaningful word, though I have my own relationship with The God Almighty over all that is, was, or ever will be. Truth is God.  I suppose if I were afraid of God, I would put it thus: “T___h is G_d.”

I recognize that you have a damn good reason to fear God. As a Jew, you have come under the wrath of God like so many Jews have since they were referred to as the Children of Israel. Children they are. I am an aging parent who has many children, grandchildren and some great grandchildren. Children are children. As a term meaning immature people who need protection from their dangerous inattention to truth and consequences, it fits you perfectly. So, you are one of the Children of Israel. As a term meaning the adult offspring of older and wiser adults, I take it that you are much younger than I.

Take my hand, son, and I will lead you to the throne of God, who is the master of Truth. Zionism is wrong. Killing people to clear them from your path is against the obvious will of God.

As I was growing up, my parents gave me gifts. Gifts on my birthday, gifts on Christmas, gifts just out of the blue to show that they loved me. I did not understand it at the time, that that they bribed me to be good and to deserve the gifts that they gave me. God gave Abraham a gift. It was a promised land. Not a particular land as he lead himself to believe. The land flowing with milk and honey did not exist on the planet. It was a promised land that would be the entire planet if people could learn to live together in cooperation and peace. The burden was placed upon Abraham to bring the promise into being.

Abraham and all his followers searched for the Promised Land which was a land without people for a people without land. Everywhere, he found people. He fought them and tried to kill enough of them to make a Promised Land for himself. He failed each time. The Jews failed to keep the Promised Land after the Exodus. They were so selfish that they were thrown out time and again. Some tried to establish in foreign lands, but could not cooperate with the natives. They were kept in their place or chose to hide in ghettos so that They had only Jews to wake up to each morning. The wrath of God came down on them repeatedly, until the Holocaust. Western civilization decided to make a ghetto state out Palestine and isolate the Jews so that they would not disturb the rest of the civilized world with their holier than us attitude. They went back to the land Abraham tried to conquer many years ago and where Joshua fought the battle of Jerico. Where famine in the land flowing with milk and honey drove them into indentured slavery for several generations in Egypt.

To make a long story short in the interest of the concerns of the censors, uh ‘moderators’. I am not an atheist.

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By Behemoth101, November 15, 2006 at 12:06 am Link to this comment
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Like moths to a flame, these Pharisaic Phalanx-niks can’t help but betray their plans by occident!

Desperation has put the backwards neo-Zealot outpost in an ideological pickle - sure it takes power, but does it do so NOT at the expense of the very religion it claims to protect?

Check out my post for the predictable truth we all saw coming - Sinister Semitic Shlock-artists and the Slime they Sell!

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By Geronimo, November 14, 2006 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment
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re: Comment #38054 by Qwagmyre

Wishful thinking only if one does nothing to bring this about.  Reality the instant one sees to it.

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By Justice4All, November 14, 2006 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment
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Forgot to mention that I salute Tony, Frank, Robert, Kwagmyre, Geronimo and Fadel for their perseverance and resilience. Thank you.

All the best!!!

Sorry if I missed anyone.

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By Justice4All, November 14, 2006 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment
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It looks like we are stuck with pathetic psychos on this forum. First comes Larry then Barry then this what’s his name … Ken.

I have not been posting lately because I realized that those psychopaths are not even worth my time. One thing, however, caught my attention in this blatant post by Ken:

“Yes, Kwaggy, in my book God does not play favorites either. That is because we are modern, civililized people. Our religion is more advanced. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who practice a form of Judaism that is perfectly consistent with modern civilization. Those are the Jews that must drag there bretheren into the 21st century. My strategy is for the United States to give them a push.”

Well if you read your post again, you realize that you are nothing but a racist, xenophobic bigot who has no place in a modern civilized world. You and your likes are blinded with bigotry and insularity and should be placed in some sort of a mental institution. Thanks to information technology and the internet because it exposes bigots like you. You cannot hide from yourself anymore!!

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By Ken Schreier, November 14, 2006 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment
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Response to Robert: Comment#38060

Full of hot air are you !
I think you should consult your leader, Frank Goodman, Sr. before you speak your anti-Jewish garbage and show how ignorant you really are !
You are one of those uneducated jerks who can find nothing to do but bash Jews !
I have given you the pleasure of my insights and I will no longer respond to your foolish comments !
Frank Goodman, SR, is the only atheist I will respond to ! At least he seems to be an intelligent secular person who may be helped by some spiritual awakening !
Take care Robert and get a life !
G-D Bless !

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By Robert, November 14, 2006 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment
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Re: Ken Schreier comment #37898 on 11/13

“It is the holy bible that teaches us to love thy neighbor as thy self!”

“Jews & Christians believe that Judgement day will reveal the truth of the bible’s teachings to the peoples of the earth!”

Oh I see…Ken wants to re-route us & wants to set a new agenda topic on this forum.

Now he wants to talk about Judeo/Christian values. He is trying to take the “high moral” route to improve his cosmetic appeal (his new approach) to the people on this forum.

Ken…if zionist Jews believe in the holy bible & its teachings & that Jews & Christians beliefs are close & similar, then why are the following facts are law / policy in your zionist Jewish state of Israel?

- In Israel a Christian is permitted to preach the gospel in a church building, but for the clergy or anyone to even tell one about the teachings in the Bible outside the church will bring a 5 year prison sentence.

- For a Christian to give a Bible or a religious article or even an act of kindness toward a Jew, such as giving a gift of food, can be interpreted as trying to convert a Jew to Christianity and can bring a 5 year prison sentence.

- It is illegal for a Jewish woman to marry a Christian man or a Jewish man to marry a Christian woman. The marriage is not recognized & its against the law.

Israel is a theocratic state and a democracy for Jews only! Israel has no constitution, but makes and changes it laws for the benefit of Jews only!

Christian & Moslem citizens of Israel are third & fourth class citizens. They do not have the same opportunities and protections as Jews.

Just go & see how they are treated in Tel Aviv airport and other places in Israel. Their humiliations by the Israeli personnel are palpable & sinful. 

THE TRUTH MUST BE TOLD. WHEN PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH THEY CAN JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES.

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By Kwagmyre, November 14, 2006 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment
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Posted by Geronimo #38009:

“If we really cared about what’s happening in the MIddle East, we’d be seeing to it that a just peace agreement between the Palestinian people and the Jewish settlers is arrived at (& STAT), because then there’ll be no war no more, nowhere, not even one.”

Certainly so, but as long as the likes of Ken dictate the thinking and policies of the Zionists in Israel, I’m afraid that’s only wishful thinking.

Incidentally for anyone who hasn’t already read “One Country” by Ali Abunimah, I heartily recommend. I’m about half way through it now.

This recommendation naturally goes out to Ken as well.

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By Ken Schreier, November 14, 2006 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment
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To Frank Goodman & his followers:

Well Frank, I gave you my views in comment#37898.
You have not given any refutation to my analysis that you are an atheist & look at the Holy Bible as some ancient fairy tale !
I guess I was 100% correct !
I just wanted to show 90% of the people of this world what type of individual they are dealing with !
You do not believe in G-d and therefore your views are your own !
Well, the will of G-d does not change, but the will of man changes when it best serves his current and changing needs !
There are no atheists in a fox hole Frank !
I am sure, in the future, when you find yourself in a serious situation you will be asking G-d to help you out !
Stop being a intellectual snob in telling the world that their belief in a Supreme Being is foolish and childish.
Frank, 90% of the people can’t be wrong when it comes to the recognition that there is a G-d who does listen to our prayers and acts on them !
Whether G-d’s answer is yes or no, we believe that in the end it will be for the good !
I rather trust in G-d than in a man !
That is why I cannot agree with your distorted view of the world around you !
You are a G-d unto yourself and guided by your own limited & subjective intellect !
May G-d help show you the way to enlightenment and give you the wisdow to see the difference between good & evil !

Sholom my friend !

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By Geronimo, November 14, 2006 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment
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If we really cared about what’s happening in the MIddle East, we’d be seeing to it that a just peace agreement between the Palestinian people and the Jewish settlers is arrived at (& STAT), because then there’ll be no war no more, nowhere, not even one.

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By Tony Wicher, November 13, 2006 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #37896 by Kwagmyre on 11/13 at 4:34 pm

Kwaggy said: “And yet, as that recent Gay event unequivocally demonstrated, the Ultra-Orthodox are certainly a force to be reckoned with(since they got the parade banned and the event was held at an outdoor sports arena).  That’s why many posts ago, I referred to Israel as a theocracy bearing in mind this very influence but didn’t know until it was then pointed out, that Israel is more fundamentally speaking a “secular” state, the Orthodox influence notwithstanding.” 

My reply:

Yeah, it’s deceptive, isn’t it? What are these people? That’s what I want to know. I don’t think they know. That’s just the problem. Their identity is confused. Are they secular or are they not? Either way, their position is untenable. If they are an ancient and primitive people, such as Joshua led the first time they marched into the area, slaughtering as they went, and they really believe in all that stuff with the Ark, even to this very day, well, then they are some kind of religious fundamentalists. I’m sure Ken believes every word of it. If I had a time machine I would send him back to Joshua’s time and he could have a fine time slaughtering the innocent inhabitants of the place without a qualm of conscience.
 
On the other hand, if they are not genuine believers (however fanatical) like Ken or the ultra-orthodox who tried to ban the Gay Pride Parade, then, presumably, they believe in such things as freedom and democracy. They will actually have a little dispute with the ultra-orthodox about this. They pat themselves on the back, thinking they are fighting for democratic values. But then, how can they justify what they have done and are doing, if not by those savage passages in their so-called holy scripture? Sure, if God ordered it, it must be all right. But if you are secular, then what is the justification? It comes down to this: the “Israelites” (secular or not) descended on the land and disposessed the inhabitants, just as it says they did and God ordered them to do in their damned Bible. (Right, Ken?) It was bad enough the first time, but they had to go and do it twice. But at they had a God and Ark and all that. What do these guys have? Nothing. If they are not religious, they are just plain old warlords and imperialists. Might makes right is their only morality. They carved “Israel” out of the Palestinians and they say they have a big army and nuclear weapons and there is nothing Fadel and those Palestinian women can do about it. The first time it was OK. After all, civilization had advanced only so far. But this time, the whole civilized world is looking at you. They do not believe your bogus religious justification.
 
“But one comment to Ken while I’m posting now.  I don’t care how vociferously he rants and raves about the Bible or Torah decrees for Jews and the “promised land” because in my book GOD DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES!  So this would also apply to the Islamic fundamentalists invoking Allah to justify terrorist acts as well.”

Yes, Kwaggy, in my book God does not play favorites either. That is because we are modern, civililized people. Our religion is more advanced. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who practice a form of Judaism that is perfectly consistent with modern civilization. Those are the Jews that must drag there bretheren into the 21st century. My strategy is for the United States to give them a push.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 13, 2006 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment
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Re: Comment #37811 by Robert on 11/12

Robert, let up on Ken. He is doing our work for us. We cannot possibly appear as credible as he does, when he represents the worst of the advocates for the Apartheid Israel. Keep him stirred up, but don’t drive him away. He is our guard dog. He is the hornet’s nest in the drive way. The mad dog foaming at the mouth.

I used to get my lessons across to my children by giving them a personality as the ‘bad example’. It worked. I nominate Ken as the ‘bad example’. He can show our lesson better than we can. All we have to do is remain decent and accurate. He will distort the accurate and malign the decency of Palestinians.

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By Robert, November 13, 2006 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment
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BURNING CONSCIENCE: ISRAELI SORLDIERS SPEAK OUT

Here is a video from Youtube.com; its about Israeli soldiers speaking out about the horrors and destruction that the IDF cause on the Palestinians. These soldiers are telling the truth to their parents, Israelis and the rest of the world regarding what the Israeli army is doing to the Palestinian people, their homes, property, cities, towns, villages…these soldiers could not hold it in any longer. They dared to speak out and tell the truth about Israel’s IDF policy of bloody murders of Palestinian civilians & other crimes.

Ken….you can watch this video too. Tell us if these IDF soldiers are telling the TRUTH OR NOT !!!

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo

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By Ken Schreier, November 13, 2006 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment
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To Frank Goodman, Sr.
Re# Your comment #37848

” Bring it on”, how childish Frank !
You know what is the real problem with your view, & that of your friends on this site,you do not believe in the bible that Moses and the prophets handed down from generation to generation !
You look at it as some made up fairy tales !
The real problem is that you don’t believe in the taking of the Israelites out of Egypt or the giving of the commandments in the desert or the giving of the land of Canaan by the ONE AND ONLY G-D to the children of Israel !
That is the real problem Frank !
I have not heard from you or your friends that there is a G-d who actually can decide what to do with the Earth he/she created.
I have heard about politics, democracy, rights, etc, but not about G-d !
Think about it and see how foolish you all are.
Do you actually discount the truth of the Holy Bible ?
Do you not know that the United States was actually brought into existence for the purpose of freely being able to pray to G-d as you want ?Do you not know that the fathers of this country were religious people who believed in a supreme being ? Read the Declaration of Independence my friend !
There are many man made religions but ONE G-d !
You speak about your view of things, but nothing about G-d’s !
G-d has no place in your world, is that not true Frank ?
You are most likely an atheist and care nothing about G-d’s will, only your will !
Before there was the bible there was paganism !
Man without the laws of G-d are nothing but pagans and believe in what ever best serves their current needs !
It is the law of Moses, inspired by G-d, that has been passed down by the Jews & Christians !
Don’t you see that man is selfish and does not care about his/her fellow human !
It is the holy bible that teaches us to love thy neighbor as thy self !
G-D IS REAL !  You can deny it all you want.
You don’t really listen to my arguments , because you don’t believe in their vey foundation, which is that G-d gave the land to the Israelites !
You are right, If G-d did not give the land to the Israelites, then they had no right to retake it back from the muslim arabs who lived there !
So, our real difference is my belief in the bible being factual and your belief that it is not factual !
This of course can never be resolved until G-d decides to finally bring the whole discussion to an end !
Jews & Christians believe that Judgement day will reveal the truth of the bible’s teachings to the peoples of the Earth !
That is why there cannot be a resolution of the problem in the way you want.
Human kind must know that there is a G-d who has the power to decide the outcome of things !
However, it is man who has the free will to carry out the will of G-d or not !
Yes, we are all G-d’s children and G-d is the father of us all ! G-d loves us all the same !
However, as in every family, some children are more responsible than the others, some are more compassionate, some are more cruel, some are more intelligent, etc.
Nothing is different here, G-d knows what is in the heart of man and choses as he sees fit those people who will carry out his will to achieve the total unification of all his children and peace on Earth!
It was the Children of Israel that G-d chose to begin this process of oneness & peace and gave them the Land where they were to become a “light until the nations of the Earth” !
When the Jews were not worthy of this LAND, G-d exiled them to the four corners of the Earth until they would understand their purpose in foreign lands and correct their mistakes ! G-d then promised he/she would return them to accomplish their mission for the unification of all his/her children in peace and love ! 
As in a family, when a parent choses a child as an example of how to be, the other children become jealous and start to hate the child who the parents chose !
Nothing different here, The Jews were always hated by the other nations because they were chosen as the nation that G-d entrusted with the responsibility of bringing all the nations in line with the will of the father !
So, my friend, if you don’t believe this there cannot be any resolution of the difference of our views !
Yes, you want peace and I want peace !
Your way of secularism will not achieve this end !
However, my way of the word of G-d must and will accomplish what we both want, peace !

Take care - G-d Bless !

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By Kwagmyre, November 13, 2006 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
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Posted by Tony Wicher, #37865:

“After all, Israelis are, as Rabbi Lerner puts it, “vehemently secular”. They claim to be a secular liberal democracy.”

And yet, as that recent Gay event unequivocally demonstrated, the Ultra-Orthodox are certainly a force to be reckoned with(since they got the parade banned and the event was held at an outdoor sports arena).  That’s why many posts ago, I referred to Israel as a theocracy bearing in mind this very influence but didn’t know until it was then pointed out, that Israel is more fundamentally speaking a “secular” state, the Orthodox influence notwithstanding. 

But one comment to Ken while I’m posting now.  I don’t care how vociferously he rants and raves about the Bible or Torah decrees for Jews and the “promised land” because in my book GOD DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES!  So this would also apply to the Islamic fundamentalists invoking Allah to justify terrorist acts as well.

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By Tony Wicher, November 13, 2006 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #37848 by Frank Goodman, Sr.  on 11/13 at 7:46 am


Frank, here is my perspective: It may or may not really be the religion of the Jews that dominates everyone’s rights in Israel. After all, Israelis are, as Rabbi Lerner puts it, “vehemently secular”. They claim to be a secular liberal democracy. They put on gay pride parades - while stomping on the Palestinians with the other foot, so to speak. The hypocrisy is overwhelming. That’s the part I just can’t stand. If they are so secular, how can the claim to land that Ken is making be based on the religion of the Jews? Either they do not believe in this quaint old religion, and are actually real estate dealers and claim jumpers making this claim to the Holy Land under false pretenses, or they really are Jews, so quaint and old-fashioned and narrow-minded that their thinking has not advanced since before the time of Muhammad, pretending that they are all secular and democratic and modern. So which is it? Consider: what about those demographic laws Israel has which define what a Jew is? Does it have to do with what your religion is? Can anybody kiss his Torah, or whatever it is Jews do (Muslims have very simple formula to recite, I believe) announce that he is a Jew, and migrate to Israel with all the rights and privileges extended to any other Jew? No. His mother has to be a “Jew” and what makes his mother a “Jew”? Doesn’t her mother have to be a Jew, or something. The lineage has to be matrilineal, because because otherwise there is a danger of losing one’s racial purity, you see. So who thought of these ideas? Was it Jews, or was it Hitler? Some people say Herr Schicklegruber himself had “Jewish” genes on his mother’s side. 

What about an Arab pride parade, come to think of it? Those poor, persecuted bastards should get out there and express Arab pride - wonder if they would get their heads shot off or what? Here’s a possible strategy to kick off our peace initiative: The Arabs living in Israel proper should express sympathy for those living in exile by having a nice, democratic public parade where they all stand up, fill out a card where they swear not to commit an act of violence for any reason (the hudna), and have their picture taken with their name and the oath clearly showing. Having done that, they can proceed to annouce solidarity with those living in the camps, and say that they do not consider themselves Israeli citizens either. They will not do so until a consitution is written and ratified by agreement of ALL the people living in the area that will guarantee the rights of everyone and will fully repatriate all those living in the camps and elsewhere who wish to relocate. After this is done, will it still be called Israel? Who knows? I know of one progressive peace organization which has such
programs. It is called the Fellowship of Reconciliation. Check it out at http://www.forusa.org/. I know some people in it personally and they are the best.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 13, 2006 at 8:46 am Link to this comment
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Re: Comment #37739 by Ken Schreier on 11/12

OK Ken, since most of the rest have given up on you, I am now your nemesis. Come on! Let us go at it.

I am on the side of democracy, decency, cooperation, human rights, and a One State Solution to the Palestine situation.  I am for freedom of religion, personal freedom, rights and law and order. I am against a state run by religion or certain political concepts. I am against dictatorial powers, religious and political fanatics of all brands. I am against your position on Palestine.

Israel has no inherent right to exist. Palestine has no inherent right to exist. United States of America has no inherent right to exist. I have purposely included your state, a state for your opponent and my own state. Any state that does exist, truly exists. The state of Israel exists, the state of Germany exists and did exist under Hitler. The United States does exist with the threat of fascist take over. Israel is already in the throes of racist and religious bigotry of the worst kind. Hamas is not a state, but has advanced some pretty good democratic principles in its attempt to lead the people of Palestine to freedom and human rights. I have no way to know if Hamas as an Islamist party could embrace true democratic principles. I know that Israel embraces true democratic principles, but does not practice them. I know that Israel officially expects that the religion of the Jews will dominate everyone else’s rights.

As I have said before in this space, I oppose Zionism, Fascism, Communism, and Islamism. I also oppose any attempt by any religion to take over any democratic state. Though I believe in and practice freedom of religion and politics, I oppose the fanatics who would distort democracy beyond recognition like Zionism does.

You are on the wrong side of history. You are on the wrong side of politics. You are on the wrong side of religion. And you are on the wrong side of reason. But, please keep posting your lies and distortions. Please keep your ugly ideas out in the open. We do not want them hidden behind a democratic facade like Nazism was in Germany. Agendas like yours are insidious and dangerous to the world when hidden behind legitimate concerns for freedom and justice only to have the fabric of human rights ripped away when they come to power.

Use all your persuasive power to present the monster that is Zionism to the world. The more people know about it from your mouth, the better they can resists the stupidity of your position. Please answer this with the full weight of your best arguments and threats. Bring it on!

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By Robert, November 12, 2006 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment
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Re: Ken Schreier’s Foaming At The Mouth.

Hey Ken…what ailes you? It seems that you can’t take the truth at all. Your brain & soul are so infected with zionist propaganda that you can’t seem to focus on common logic.

You are trying to spew your “moral preaching” at us, but you are not practicing what you are trying to preach.

Which of the commandments do you believe in & honor? Some or all them?

You are trying to throw those common zionist’s tactics to silence free speech on this forum by crying “anti-semitism” to quiet anyone who attempts to expose any of the zionist jews/Israel’s subversive acts & brutal occupation of the Palestinians.

This forum’s information is starting to reach many people, so you are resorting to ridicule the information and the persons giving the information.

Ken… your methods & tactics are NOT going to work on the good people of this forum & the ones who are following the more that 800 comments.

Have you heard of Israel Shahak, Norman Finkelstein, Uri Avneri, Noam Chomsky, Stanley Cohen, Jennifer Lowenstein…and many more respected Jews in the eyes of good people?

Are the above mentioned academic names lying when they write & discuss facts/truth about the Israel/Palestine conflict?

Have you donated any money (tax deductible) to AIPAC & other zionist organizations?

I just wonder if you still praise the United States when the American people will push their elected officials to make Israel abide & honor UN resolutions 242 & 338?

Will you still praise America when the $3-5 billion dollars per year of American tax payer’s aid to Israel is halted because Israel refuses to comply with UN resolutions & International law?

This is the Internet & people are free to write about TRUTH & JUSTICE of oppressed people. This is not the zionist’s controled mainstream news media…where information is almost always is biased towards Israel.

You can keep spewing your hate of human rights, Justice for mankind, Palestinians, Arabs, Islamists, Academics truth…and on and on.

I must tell you that you have made a damn fool of yourself on this forum.

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By Kwagmyre, November 12, 2006 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Post #37683 by Frank:

First off. It is very fortunate that I know many Jews who are for peace and against the terrible crimes committed by Zionists in the take over of the land that belongs to the Palestinians.

Yes, I’m one such Jew in fact.  It’s only been in recent months that I experienced something of a change of heart regarding Israel.  I was never that much of a Zionist to begin with(not that religious either).  But the more I became informed about events there, the more opposed to the Zionist position I became.  In fact a few weeks ago, I logged onto a link provided by Spinoza(I think)and signed a statement along with a thousand or more fellow Jews to protest Israel’s policies.

So, Ken, go ahead and accuse me of being a self-hating Jew and see where it gets you!

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By Ken Schreier, November 12, 2006 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment
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To Frank Goodman, Sr.

You are back spreading your garbage talk about Zionism !
For your information, all practicing Jews are Zionist!
A Zionist is a Jew who believes that G-d will return the Children of Israel to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob !
Well it happened in 1948 & continues, and no one can deny that, not even you !
The word comes from the prophets !
Zion is the place on Earth where G-d dwells with his righteous people. It is of course where the Temple of Solomon stood, but was abandoned by G-d, because of the sin of hatred between the different sect of Jews and not following the commandments ! This was also predicted by Moses and the prophets ! Many of the Jews were scattered by the Romans, and other nations of occupation, to the four corners of the Earth ! However, when his people had repented for their sins in their exile and the nations of the Earth had oppressed them to an intolerable degree, the Holocaust, G-d would return his people to the land he had promised them !
Well ,as you see, Moses and the prophets predicted all of this 3000 yrs before it happened ! This is fact, not a fairy tale as you see the Torah of the Jews !
The Torah is the most proven reference in the history of human kind !
It has come to truth in your time and you deny the facts of what you see with your own eyes !
Wake up my friend and smell the Messianic age unfolding before your very eyes !
Peace will come as the prophets predicted for all human kind and judgement day will come for those who doubt the word of the ONE G-D of us all !
The Jews & Christians of the world are now waiting for the rebuilding of the Temple which will become a house of prayer for all the righteous on Earth !
Do you not know this basic teaching of Judaism ?
Your lack of knowledge of this wonderful concept has lead you to compare this idea to Nazism & facism !
Do you see how foolish you look ?
Well now that you know what Zionism truly is, do not let me hear you misuse it again !
May the ONE G-D of us all forgive your ignorance !

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By Ken Schreier, November 12, 2006 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Fadel Abdullah:

Contrary to the other people on this site who know nothing about me , I am truly sorry for your loss ! It is horrible to lose people you love who were caught in the crossfire of a situation they are helpless to stop !   
However, it is not the Jews who caused the dangerous situation the arab muslim people in the West Bank & Gaza find themseves in. It is the terrorist organizations, Hamas & Hezbollah , who have publicly proclaimed that they want the destruction of Israel and holds your people as hostages !
I believe that if the Arab Muslim people would freely elect representatives , without fear of reprisals,who want peace with Israel, there would be peace and coexistence would happen !
Israel has no problem living with Arab Muslims.
Israel has a 1 million + Israeli Arab population that are free to practice their religion and vote in Israeli elections !
You tell me if Jews have this same right in Arab Muslim countries !
Israel was willing to sign a peace agreement with Arafat. What happened, he turned it down ! Did he go to the people and ask them to vote on it ? No , he rejected it and stated “They would kill me if I signed this agreement”. Who was the “they” he was talking about ? It was the terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah and other radical terrorists in the region !
In order to have peace, terrorist groups must be removed from power and disarmed !
The people must have the right to vote freely !
Candidates must be put before them who want peace with Israel and not its destruction ! 
When this happens your wish for peace between Arabs & Jews will happen !
G-d bless you and may he answer our prayers for peace between his Jewish, Muslim , Christian and all his children on this Earth !

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By Tony Wicher, November 12, 2006 at 12:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Further Reply to Comment #37672 by Ken Schreier on 11/11 at 4:56 pm”

Ken, I tell you what else I am going to do besides subject you to public execration: I am going to send your so-called apology, together with my response, to Rabbi Michael Lerner. He may not feel that he is in a position to respond, but I do have the feeling he is following this discussion. I don’t know what he thinks. He has not said. Let him be the judge. Isn’t this statement of Ken’s the most disgusting crap you ever heard, Michael? Can you find any redeeming qualities in this guy? Can he possibly really mean what he is saying? Is there anything you could say to him?

OK, OK, I will try to be dispassionate. I will still suppose that no matter what he says, Ken is still here in this forum seeking guidance. A dybbuk has him. It needs to be exorcised. Somewhere down there covered by black clouds of hate and fear there is still a human being crying for help. The demon is trying to destroy our peace effort, and cause Fadel to lose all control and nuke everything, but somewhere down there is a Ken who would be with us if only the scales were torn from this eyes. OK, Rabbi? Ken does not see the moral odiousness of his position, but that’s nothing special. This way of looking at things justifies war throughout the world. It is Bush’s view. It is the view of those who organize Islamic terrorism. It is the Nazi’s view. It is a very common view. It makes the whole world morally odious. If the world does not turn away from this view, I think even God’s patience may have limits.

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By Kwagmyre, November 12, 2006 at 10:15 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony #37703 posts with:

Ken, do you hear me? I love Jews, but I’m really, really starting to hate you. I can’t help it. I’ve tried to be friendly, I’ve tried to be kind, but you have crossed my limits. You are such a phony. Your “apology” is a piece of crap. As far as I am concerned, unless you change your tone drastically, I will no longer respond to your posts, and I urge the serious contributers to this forum to do the same. If you cannot understand why I am saying this, may God help you. I certainly can’t.

I could see right at the outset with his first post that trouble lied ahead in Dodge City.  It’s bad enough having a Firebrand Fundamentalist on board but when he persists so doggedly with his own blatantly intolerant agenda then all hope for some sort of “reasoned” discourse is completely gone.

He’s not even worth poking fun of anymore as I did in a previous post(not that that accomplished anything anyway which I really didn’t intend it to doing).

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By Fadel Abdallah, November 12, 2006 at 10:06 am Link to this comment
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To Tony Wicher, Comment 37703

Thank you, dear Tony, for your response to Mr. Ken Scheier’s comment. After reading his comment I found myself at loss of how to respond to someone who says sorry, yet, at the same time, blames the victims. Therefore, I decided not to respond. In fact, you clearly said what I would have said myself if I found myself motivated to respond. Therefore, my response to you is an indirect response to Mr. Scheier.

However, I honestly feel so depressed to the point that I have given up on the hope for peace. If it was a matter of Ken Scheier’s types, I would bear with patience till we come to terms. However, when the misguided U.S. policies prompt it to cast, for the one thousand times, a veto in the Security Council condemning Israel, then I think you would understand why I feel hopeless.

Simply stated, it’s not Ken Scheier’s types who are the main problem to peace; it’s rather the U.S. Zionist-controlled politics and policies in support of Israel’s state-sponsored terrorism that are at the heart of this continued tragic situation. The problem is more than a conflict between Palestinians and Jews; it’s a conflict between the invisible merchants of death, with the power of their money and weapons of mass destruction, and two helpless and oppressed semitic people (Palestinians and Jews), who are used as pawns in the hands of those merchants of death because they happened to be living in an area of vital strategic importance which serves as a gateway to control the whole region and its politics.

I honorably accept my defeat as a warrior for peace and as a pacifist, and for the rest of my disilusioned years on earth I only hope and pray for the absence of wars and the absence of new massacres in this troubled land which the accident of birth made it my homeland.

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By Ken Schreier, November 12, 2006 at 9:40 am Link to this comment
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Oh Wicher :

Don’t give me that bull about loving Jews !
Your anti-Jewish writings tell it all !
You are the worst kind of Jew hater !
Your kind smiles in the Jews face and then stabs him/her in the back !
Get a life and stay out of a problem you know nothing about !
Your big plans for peace in the Middle East, with the desolving of the Jewish state of Israel, is nothing but another Final solution plan to commit genocide against the Jewish people !
We know your kind and you can’t fool truth loving people !
I see that 99% of the writers on this site are a bunch of Jew haters by their all to familiar ignorant belief of Jewish domination of American politics ,the media & the banking system !
That is old lies and you need to get people on your site who are intelligent enough to come up with more deceptive lies to hate Jews !
Again, get a life ! If you are ignorant of truth keep it to yourself and don’t put it down in writing where all the world can see !

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By Ken Schreier, November 12, 2006 at 9:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Tony Wicher:

If you believe that Hamas was freely elected without the fear of reprisals against the arab population that live in the West Bank & Gaza, you are a lost cause !
It shows your total lack of reason and your misunderstanding of the real situation in that region !
You should no longer suggest solutions to problems you know nothing about !
You may hate me but I pity your ignorance of what is going on !
Your type is very dangerous because you spread false information to those around you !
May G-d open your eyes to the truth so that you do not infect other people with your lies !

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By Tony Wicher, November 12, 2006 at 12:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Reply to Comment #37672 by Ken Schreier on 11/11 at 4:56 pm”

To Fadel Abdullah:

Sorry for your lost relatives !
It would not have happened if the militant Jew hating Hamas terrorists had not been allowed to take over your people !
Time for you to elect people who want to live in peace with Israel !
May your people have the courage to elect good & peace loving people to rule over them !
In this way the people in the west bank and Gaza will be able to become a respected people in the eyes of good people & the Almighty!

G-d comfort you in your time of mourning !”

What are we going to do, folks? Ken just keeps piling it on. First he supports the murderous Zionist policies that murders Fadel’s relatives, and then tells Fadel he is sorry, but their death was not Kens’s fault; it was the fault of Fadel and the Palestinian people for “allowing Hamas terrorists to take over”. As I recall, Hamas was democratically elected in an election which everyone praised as fair. Your statement here really just takes the cake. I’m speechless. Fadel must be sitting over there wondering why anybody would be against nuking such a loathsome piece of slime. Ken, do you hear me? I love Jews, but I’m really, really starting to hate you. I can’t help it. I’ve tried to be friendly, I’ve tried to be kind, but you have crossed my limits. You are such a phony. Your “apology” is a piece of crap. As far as I am concerned, unless you change your tone drastically, I will no longer respond to your posts, and I urge the serious contributers to this forum to do the same. If you cannot understand why I am saying this, may God help you. I certainly can’t.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 11, 2006 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #37669 by Ken Schreier on 11/11

First off. It is very fortunate that I know many Jews who are for peace and against the terrible crimes committed by Zionists in the take over of the land that belongs to the Palestinians. I know many Jewish American organizations who oppose the building of Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestine. I read many Jewish scholars and journalists who understand the issues much better than you do. I doubt that you read the appeal from Ahmed Yousef that I posted on this site several days ago. (Comment #35957 by Frank Goodman, Sr.  on 11/01) Jews in the occupation are the killers of women and children. Witness Biet Hanoun on November 9th. (Comment #37622 by Fadel Abdallah on 11/11)

You and all your Zionist land pirates need a lesson in history of violence of your kind. Insurgencies on the side of justice and human rights have a way of ending a win for human rights. The Zionist and Nazi brand of fascism does not win. Even a milder form of injustice like apartheid in South Africa lost to the insurgents. The American insurgent movement called our Civil War ended in the freeing of the slaves and the end of slavery in my country. It is a shame how you and the leaders of your butcher state can lie to the world and the world is so ashamed of the Hitler episode and the anti-Semitism of America that they are afraid of being called anti-Semitic if they criticize the butchers of Hanoun. John Bolton in the United Nations cast the American veto of the resolution against Israel, saying that it was political. What kind of bull shit is that. Women and children killed by the IDF butchers is “political”? That is all they can say about the continuing human rights violations by the worst butcher state in the world? My country, the home of freedom and justice where we have fought many battles for political, civil, and human rights since the founding, has sunk to a new low under the burden of the ZOA and AIPAC campaign to buy our politicians using the money that started out as American tax payers money. The AIPAC and ZOA are even classed as organizations that have tax free status for donors. None of our political parties or purely political organizations have that status.

But you do us a great favor by splashing your filthy lies on these pages for the world to see. Any decent human being who reads the appeal by Fadel Abdullah, Tony Wicher, and myself, as well as many others, for peace and an end to the Zionist plan to take the rest Palestine for a Greater Israel, can easily make up his mind as who is truly for peace and human rights. Now that Olmert has another butcher, Lieberman, in his government, he is poised to carry out the transfer plan and kick the rest of the Arabs out of Israel and Palestine.

When Jews of the world wake up and understand that their peace depends upon the peace of the Arab world and especially the Palestinians, we will have a movement toward peace in that sorry land. It started with Rabin, but he was shot by a fanatic like yourself who did not and still does not understand what peaceful living is all about.

I urge anyone who has not read all the entries by Ken and his cohorts in this site, to do so. Compare the tone of their comments with those of Robert, Tony Wicher, Fadel Abdullah, myself and those who write under other than their own names for the sake of peace and human cooperation. Note the blood thirsty tone of the likes of Ken and his cohorts. Ask yourself who you would rather live with as neighbors on this planet.

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By Ken Schreier, November 11, 2006 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Fadel Abdullah:

Sorry for your lost relatives !
It would not have happened if the militant Jew hating Hamas terrorists had not been allowed to take over your people !
Time for you to elect people who want to live in peace with Israel !
May your people have the courage to elect good & peace loving people to rule over them !
In this way the people in the west bank and Gaza will be able to become a respected people in the eyes of good people & the Almighty!

G-d comfort you in your time of mourning !

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By Ken Schreier, November 11, 2006 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The anti-Jewish lobby is at it again !
Again the Jews are to blame, nothing new !
The arab muslim dictators are saints and can do no wrong in the eyes of the fanatic Jew haters on this site.
There is no acknowlegement that the land was Jewish land before it was muslim land !
This fact is never accepted by these Jew haters.
Before there was a mosque on the temple mount there was the Temple of Solomon !
This is another fact that is never admitted by arab leaders !
Jews continued to live in Judea, current day Israel, even after the Romans destroyed Solomon’s Temple in 70 AD. There were always Jews in the land during the occupations of the Christians , Muslims , Turks & British. The Jews never lost hope of its people returning to THE PROMISED LAND ! Well it happened, as predicted by Moses & the prophets, in 1948 with the creation of Israel !
This time it is for keeps, as predicted by the prophets ! Never again will they be removed from the land that G-d gave them !
It is fact my anti-Jewish friends.
There is no sense in twisting the reality of what is to fit your distorted writings on this site !
This land of Israel belongs to the children of Israel who brought the teachings of the ONE G-d to the rest of humanity !
For this, the nations of the world have continued to try and destroy the Jewish people !
Only one country has continued to support the Jews and that is the United States !
The USA , is the greatest democracy in history . This country , of Judeo/Christian values, has been blessed by the Almighty and liberated the world from Nazi Germany ! This great country continues to send its children to every part of the world to liberate those people enslaved by murderous dictators and regimes !
It is the only country willing to free the world from evil with the blood of their children !
G-d bless the United States !
It is sad that truth is made the lie and the lie made truth by the evil of men in this world !
The truth of the word of G-d has come about with his people returning from the four corners of the world to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob !
Do you really think that his word can be defeated by your distortion of truth ?  Are you foolish enough to deny what has taken place with the establishment of the State of Israel after nearly 1900 yrs ? 
Get REAL, Wake up from your slumber !
Time is short, Judgement day will be upon you before you know it !
Laugh now cry for eternity you who speak with a fork tongue and smooth talk !
G-d knows what is in the hearts of men !
Repent while there is still time !
I know you think me to be a fanatic.
I am highly educated in history and have lived a long life of seeing injustice in this world !
I am sick of people who continue to blame Jews for the ills of the world !
Never have I seen the Jews praised for their survival at the hands of the tyrants throughout the generations and their bringing of morality to the peoples of the Earth !
They were “LAMBS SENT TO SLAUGHTER BY THE PEOPLE OF THIS EARTH ONLY BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS”.
It is no different today. The United Nations, which represents the nations of the world, continues to try and crush the Jewish nation for defending itself against destruction by the arab muslim world !
Only one great blessed country prevents that !!!
G-d BLESS THE UNITED STATES !!!

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By Geronimo, November 11, 2006 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

re: Comment #37582 by Tony Wicher

What will bring about a “sea change” in Israeli public opinion?  A sudden awakening, that’s what.  That there can be no war no more, nowhere, never, not even one.  And that the way to attain this is by working things out for the good and welfare of one and all, nobody left out,  and with everyone being of equal importance in the total scheme of things.  Plus the realization that seeing to this in the Middle East is gonna change the world and nice going in advance.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., November 11, 2006 at 10:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

SignOnSanDiego.com

A simple road to Middle East peace

By Zahi Khouri
November 10, 2006

More than two decades ago, I had the honor to speak about Palestinian/Israeli peace on a panel with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Although much has changed in the region since then, I could give nearly the same talk today. The requirements for peace and the benefits to be gained remain the same.

The need for American leadership in the pursuit of peace has only increased. In his meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday, President Bush should use his influence to ensure that we do not go another two decades without it.

While peace has remained elusive, the solution is quite simple. Two peoples live in the same land. Some 5 million Jewish Israelis enjoy the full range of rights accorded to citizens of any democracy. And roughly 5 million Christian and Muslim Palestinians live either as second- class citizens in Israel, or in the Occupied Territories where they enjoy virtually no rights – where every aspect of their lives is controlled by a foreign army and their land and resources are systematically taken for the use of Jewish settlers.

This inequality is untenable. Palestinians must either be granted the same rights as Jewish Israelis or must be freed from foreign rule and left to govern their own affairs. 

In 1993, the United States brokered the Oslo Peace Accords. They were supposed to have ended Israel’s military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem along with the removal of Israeli settlements built illegally on Palestinian land.

The accords offered hope. Many Palestinian Americans returned to Palestine to invest in businesses. I did that in 1996, when I launched the Coca-Cola franchise there. I also formed, with European and Israeli businesspeople, the Palestine International Business Forum. We hoped to bolster this new political agreement with economic cooperation that could benefit both Palestinians and Israelis.

New economic opportunities could turn Palestinian despair into hope. We had visions of tourists streaming into the Palestinian city of Bethlehem to see where Christ was born. We hoped Gaza could one day become another Mediterranean vacation destination, welcoming Arabs, Israelis and others alike.

Instead, Israel doubled the number of settlers living on Palestinian land during the Oslo years. And settlements are still expanding. Israel’s apartheid wall, deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004, continues to be built on confiscated Palestinian land. It solidifies Israel’s control of vital parts of the West Bank including many of the most valuable aquifers, and incorporates nearly 87 percent of Israel’s settler population.

Thousands of Palestinians are trapped between the wall and the state of Israel, separated from their jobs, schools and places of worship. They must obtain permits simply to remain in their homes while Jews from anywhere in the world may immigrate at will and live in illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Olmert is intent on pursuing this unilateral path of destruction. He seems not to have learned the lesson of Lebanon: Military aggression and unilateralism do not lead to peace. He remains determined to expand settlements and continue construction of the wall. His newest colleague, Deputy Prime Minister Avigdor Lieberman, advocates various forms of “transfer” of the Palestinians.

We have seen the results of unilateralism. Israel unilaterally “withdrew” its settlers and soldiers from Gaza more than a year ago. Yet Israel still rules the lives of Palestinians there. It continues to control Gaza’s borders, airspace and coastline, determining everything that gets in or out. Its stranglehold on Gaza led United Nations Envoy John Dugard to say, “Gaza is a prison and Israel seems to have thrown away the key.”

Today, Gaza suffers more than 45 percent unemployment, and two-thirds of its 1.5 million residents live below the poverty line with less than $2 per day. If the fate of Gaza is any indication of what lies in store for the West Bank, we are destined for decades more of conflict.

America alone has the influence to push for a peace accord that would allow both Palestinians and Israelis to live normal lives and to thrive in harmony with each other. American policy can no longer condone Israeli actions that betray American values. Supporting freedom and equal rights for the Palestinians would benefit us all – Palestinians, Israelis and Americans. President Bush has an opportunity in his meeting with Olmert to hasten a peaceful solution that would end the suffering on all sides.

Let us hope he does not squander it.

- Khouri is CEO of the Palestinian National Beverage Co., the West Bank and Gaza’s Coca- Cola franchise. He is chairman of the Palestine International Business Forum and chairs the largest Palestinian nongovernment agency, the NGO Development Center, in association with the World Bank.

Find this article at:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061110/news_lz1e10khouri.html

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By Julia Glifford, November 11, 2006 at 9:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel is in demographic meltdown. That’s why 9/11 was concocted. THAT’s why the neocons gave up on Clinton and put their money into the GOP.

Now that money is being dumped into the Democratic party. But for the same reasons. More Jews on Capital hill [a record number] thumping for MORE war on Islam.

What, you say? MORE WAR?? from the anti war left?

You just watch. Rahm Emmanuel is a JEW, first and an American somewhere very very far down the list.

This defeat had NOTHING to do with peace. The money and support [from Jewish media] was withdrawn from the GOP because they FLINCHED at bombing Iran.

Dems will concoct reasons to continue the war of their masters. Jewish masters. You and me? - we supply the bodies. 5000 years and we have learned nothing of these monsters.

America is Sobibor West - with a Jew in every watchtower.

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By Fadel Abdallah, November 11, 2006 at 8:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel and the U.S. served in the past as midwives for two Indifadas, where children with their little stones facing Israel’s weapons of mass destruction were the dominant images of these uprisings. Two days ago, Israel and the U.S. served as midwives for a third unique type of Intifada one can call “The Intifadah of Palestinian Women.” Coward Israeli and American politicians should be ashamed that they have to brutally face defenseless Palestinian women with their weapons of mass destruction. Read the following piece and face your responsibility in doing something to stop the American-supported Israeli terrorism!
================================================
We overcame our fear

“The lesson the world should learn from Beit Hanoun last week is that Palestinians will never relinquish our land, towns and villages. We will not surrender our legitimate rights for a piece of bread or handful of rice. The women of Palestine will resist this monstrous occupation imposed on us at gunpoint, siege and starvation.
Our rights and those of future generations are not open for negotiation. ”

By Jameela al-Shanti in Beit Hanoun
Thursday November 9, 2006
The Guardian

The unarmed women of the Gaza Strip have taken the lead in resisting Israel’s latest bloody assault

Yesterday at dawn, the Israeli air force bombed and destroyed my home. I was the target, but instead the attack killed my sister-in-law, Nahla, a widow with eight children in her care. In the same raid Israel’s artillery shelled a residential district in the town of Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip, leaving 19 dead and 40 injured, many killed in their beds. One family, the Athamnas, lost 16 members in the massacre: the oldest who died, Fatima, was 70; the youngest, Dima, was one; seven were children. The death toll in Beit Hanoun has passed 90 in one week.

This is Israel’s tenth incursion into Beit Hanoun since it announced its withdrawal from Gaza. It has turned the town into a closed military zone, collectively punishing its 28,000 residents. For days, the town has been encircled by Israeli tanks and troops and shelled. All water and electricity supplies were cut off and, as the death toll continued to mount, no ambulances were allowed in. Israeli soldiers raided houses, shut up the families and positioned their snipers on roofs, shooting at everything that moved. We still do not know what has become of our sons, husbands and brothers since all males over 15 years old were taken away last Thursday. They were ordered to strip to their underwear, handcuffed and led away.

It is not easy as a mother, sister or wife to watch those you love disappear before your eyes. Perhaps that was what helped me, and 1,500 other women, to overcome our fear and defy the Israeli curfew last Friday - and set about freeing some of our young men who were besieged in a mosque while defending us and our city against the Israeli military machine.

We faced the most powerful army in our region unarmed. The soldiers were loaded up with the latest weaponry, and we had nothing, except each other and our yearning for freedom. As we broke through the first barrier, we grew more confident, more determined to break the suffocating siege. The soldiers of Israel’s so-called defence force did not hesitate to open fire on unarmed women. The sight of my close friends Ibtissam Yusuf abu Nada and Rajaa Ouda taking their last breaths, bathed in blood, will live with me for ever.

Later an Israeli plane shelled a bus taking children to a kindergarten. Two children were killed, along with their teacher. In the last week 30 children have died. As I go round the crowded hospital, it is deeply poignant to see the large number of small bodies with their scars and amputated limbs. We clutch our children tightly when we go to sleep, vainly hoping that we can shield them from Israel’s tanks and warplanes.

But as though this occupation and collective punishment were not enough, we Palestinians find ourselves the targets of a systematic siege imposed by the so-called free world. We are being starved and suffocated as a punishment for daring to exercise our democratic right to choose who rules and represents us. Nothing undermines the west’s claims to defend freedom and democracy more than what is happening in Palestine. Shortly after announcing his project to democratise the Middle East, President Bush did all he could to strangle our nascent democracy, arresting our ministers and MPs. I have yet to hear western condemnation that I, an elected MP, have had my home demolished and relatives killed by Israel’s bombs. When the bodies of my friends and colleagues were torn apart there was not one word from those who claim to be defenders of women’s rights on Capitol Hill and in 10 Downing Street.

Why should we Palestinians have to accept the theft of our land, the ethnic cleansing of our people, incarcerated in forsaken refugee camps, and the denial of our most basic human rights, without protesting and resisting?
 
The lesson the world should learn from Beit Hanoun last week is that Palestinians will never relinquish our land, towns and villages. We will not surrender our legitimate rights for a piece of bread or handful of rice. The women of Palestine will resist this monstrous occupation imposed on us at gunpoint, siege and starvation. Our rights and those of future generations are not open for negotiation.

Whoever wants peace in Palestine and the region must direct their words and sanctions to the occupier, not the occupied, the aggressor not the victim. The truth is that the solution lies with Israel, its army and allies - not with Palestine’s women and children.

http://www.guardian .co.uk/israel/ Story/0,, 1942942,00. html

· Jameela al-Shanti is an elected member of the Palestinian Legislative Council for Hamas.
She led a women’s protest against the siege of Beit Hanoun last Friday
jameela.shanti@ gmail.com

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By Tony Wicher, November 10, 2006 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Further reply to Reply to Comment #37384 by Geronimo on 11/09 at 4:15 pm

Geronimo:

Here is the next part of the “grand strategy” for a peace initiative that is hatching. Right now it seems that Israeli public opinion is hopelessly against any such thing as giving up on the idea of a Jewish state and entering the 21st century as a multi-ethnic democracy. Those Jews are an old and stubborn people, I tell you! What, I ask you, might cause a “sea change” in Israeli public opinion? Consider: at this point the whole world hates them. Their only friend was Bush, who is now the laughingstock of the world because of Iraq (along with everything else he’s done). Their weapons and their army and their technology avail them nothing. The world sees through them. Bush and Israel are both emperors with no clothes. What are the Israelis to do? Here is my answer:

There is a peace group known as Abraham’s Way. I know some of the people involved in it. The most interesting thing about them is that they were recently supported by Bill Clinton in his speech about his “Global Initiative” You can listen to the speech at
http://www.abrahamsvision.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=128   

Abraham’s Way can speak to President Clinton about this multi-ethnic secular democracic solution for Israel/Palestine. It can be presented to him as the all-American compromise that can be the center of a new Democratic peace initiative. He can be shown that this is in the very greatest Democratic tradition, which he most admires - the civil rights movement of the early sixties, before Johnson got the U.S. into the damned Vietnam War and everything went sour. This time, its not Johnson’s war, not the Democrats war. It’s Bush’s war. It’s a Republican war. The Democrats can be the real party of peace this time. They can represent all that is great about America, to which the world still looks for leadership in these terrible times. You see what I am saying? This can happen. We can make it happen.

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By Robert, November 10, 2006 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment
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Where is the un-biased news coverage from our US mainstream news media? Who dares to speak out or show any of these pictures?

ARE THESE PHOTOS FAKE?


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=674

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By Tony Wicher, November 10, 2006 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #37384 by Geronimo on 11/09 at 4:15 pm

“Another way to bring peace to the Middle East is for the Jewish settlers and/or the Palestinians to renounce the use of violence and then, on the basis of mutual trust, for them to get together and work thinks out anew. How’s this going to bring about a just and peaceful settlement between two people that have been feuding ever since the Zionist state was hatched? No problem because whichever side renounces violence first, the other is sure to follow.  How?  By popular demand, that’s how. “

Hey, Geronimo! I love this way of looking at it. Look, to begin with, we, the peacemakers in every camp, renounce violence. To begin with we are a minority, like the Naturae Karta Jews, or the Amish. We refuse to fight in anybody’s army, like the early Christians did. We will not commit an unholy act of violence, to this we swear. Now we must grow our numbers until political processes such as elections in Israel will have a different outcome and leaders will be elected who will understand the problem as we are presenting it. Right now I think Hamas and the Palestinians are certainly closer to that understanding than the Israeli leaders. Israelis are really blinded by this idea of a Jewish state. Even the most stony-hearted of the Zionist leaders could be decent if this illusion could be removed from their sight. Israel rests on an illusion. It is an illusion. But we have reached the point in history where the light is dawning. The real Zion beckons.

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