Lets face it, neither side on the immigration debate will compromise with the other, states and cities will continue to pass anti-pro illegal immigration laws, the majority of the states 41, will pass anti-illegal alien laws, many cities in illegal alien sanctuary states like CA, are also passing laws that will restrict illegal alien movement and housing, illegal aliens won’t go home, they will migrate to already collapsing sanctuary cities and those areas will continue to see an exodus of Americans and the tax base with them.  In the end this separation will lead to conflict, it has in the past and will continue to do so in the future, war and genocide mark the timeline of history for all people, Hispanic slaughter of Americans and American slaughter of Hispanics is coming, all I have to say is for us Americans, buy guns and ammo you will need them!

The answer to the problem of illegal aliens is so simple it is a crying shame.  Fine employers who hire the illegals and they will stop coming over the boarder!  Fine them heavily for each illegal alien they hire.  We all know they are here for the money and we let them keep coming for their cheap labor.  It is like children with a cookiejar.  Take out all the cookies and they will stop coming for one.  The politicians want to dance all around the issue because they want the Hispanic vote and we will stand around and let them spend billions of our dollars when we know it will not solve the problem.  Solve the simple problem and spend the billions of dollars on more important issues like the healthcare crisis in this country.

The answer to the problem of illegal aliens is so simple it is a crying shame.  Fine employers who hire the illegals and they will stop coming over the boarder!  Fine them heavily for each illegal alien they hire.  We all know they are here for the money and we let them keep coming for their cheap labor.  It is like children with a cookiejar.  Take out all the cookies and they will stop coming for one.  The politicians want to dance all around the issue because they want the Hispanic vote and we will stand around and let them spend billions of our dollars when we know it will not solve the problem.  Solve the simple problem and spend the billions of dollars on more important issues like the healthcare crisis in this country.

70283 by inelson on 5/16 at 6:29 am

“Give these people a breakand give them there citazenship let them pay taxes and start the legal American life. WE have much bigger fish to fry like: Healthcare, the economy”

I’m sick of this debate too.  I’m not a racist because I want people to play by the rules.  How is letting illegals jump the line, and obtain citizenship before people waiting for years, fair?

AND ask Californians what illegal immigration is doing to legal taxpaying citizens there.  Helthcare costs are up by (some estimates) 30% due to treating illegal immigrants who are not elligable for federal assistance.

#63482 by Scott on 4/11 at 11:28 pm
(Truthdig Guest)

“Mexicans have an ancestral right to California, Texas, New Mexico and Nevada; fully one fifth of continental U.S. was wrested from Mexico under military threat.”

and the Normans from the Saxons, and the Saxons from the Gauls, and the Prussians from the Poles, Cechs, and the Russians from the Swedes, and the Ottomans from the Arabs, and the English from the Turks and the whole shooting match to and from Rome, Mongolia, and The Norse.

SFW?

We own it now, and unless we wish to be swept up in the dust-bin of history with the rest, we better get a check on stuff.

BTW names of towns do not seem to prove “ownership” or even prior ownership.  In some cases the folks crossing border5s to settle brought the old names with them.  Here in Maine we have Sweden, New Sweden, New Britain, Calais, Mexico, China Denmark, New Holland, Norway, Poland, Manchester, Derry, and Moscow.

While some of these towns were settled by the nationality designated by the name, others just defaulted to names fimilar to citizens who could not get their tongues around the “native” names… even some of them are left here as Machias, Quoddy, and Katadin. 

But I digress Russia, settled by Swedes still bares the mark of that conquest. Thae name “Russia” comes from the Rus’ a group of Varangians who lived on the other side of the Baltic Sea, in Scandinavia By your logic the folks who own Russia?

1.  Mexicans have an ancestral right to California, Texas, New Mexico and Nevada; fully one fifth of continental U.S. was wrested from Mexico under military threat.  Do Jews not have a similar rationale for displacing Palestinians from present day Israel?

2.  Does it not strike people that there are mostly Spanish names in the above States and their cities? WHO PUSHED WHOM OUT WITHOUT ASKING THEM? Hint—it was Spanish until some land-grabbing expansionist pioneers claimed that might was right.  Nevada=Snowed, Nuevo Mexico=Ex-Mexico, San Francisco=St. Francis, Los Angeles=Angels, San Diego=St. Dean, Sacramento=Sacrament, Santa Barbara=St. Barbara, Las Vegas=Stars, San Bernadino=St. Bernard…

3.  In short, there is little questionable legal claim to the lands “appropriated” from Mexico as they were transferred under duress and certainly, no moral highground in claiming that “they are taking” from “native born”.

4.  NAFTA is an unbalanced union allowing free flow of only three of the four mechanisms of capitalism: Free flow of 1) Goods, 2) Services and 3) Capital BUT NOT 4) Labor/People.  That means that jobs will necessarily lead to an exodus to a lower cost/more efficient location and PEOPLE CAN’T FOLLOW THE JOBS.  The European Union, after 50 years has the recipe right i.e. Free flow of Goods, Services, Capital AND Labor/People and even then, due to their cultural/language diversity, there is limited flow of Labor.

Illegal immigration would come to an end if U.S. employers would be made by the U.S. GOVERNMENT to stop hiring illegals by enforcing tough immigration laws. A one million dollar fine per illegal hired and 5 yrs of imprisonment would stop it cold.
The only reason Mexicans or Asians come here is to make money to support their large families.
They do not flee from their countries because of persecution but poverty.
Much of the money earned here goes back to their native countries to support their families.
Those countries don’t mind this going on because they get billions of U.S. dollars coming into their economy so these families can buy food, clothing, housing, cars, televisions, etc, in their countries.
On the other hand, the U.S. is allowing this mass immigration because companies here want cheap labor so that they can increase their profits.
The U.S. government is lobbied by these businesses to not make laws that will restrict this cheap labor from coming into the country.
That is why you now have the U.S. Congress and the President looking to sign laws which will give amnesty to the 10,000,000 illegals in this country.
The U.S. citizen gets screwed here. These U.S. companies no longer want U.S. citizens to work for them because they don’t want to pay them the minimum wage, health benefits or deal with the labor unions that would be required by law.
It is the U.S. taxpayer who picks up the costs for medical, school, housing and social services these illegals need to live here.
These illegals of couse do not pay taxes and also some commit crimes that the police have a hard time catching because they have no documentation or use false identification, such as social security numbers and names of dead U.S. citizens which they obtain on the blackmarket.
The U.S. worker will become an endangered species if this is allowed to go on.
Bottom line, the U.S. worker is in serious trouble of losing or not getting a job and keeping up the standard of living they are used to.
Bottom line, businesses are controlling U.S. immigration policy and the holy buck is its god.
Good luck my fellow U.S. CITIZENS, we will need it !

Comment #47207 by desertrat on 1/12 at 11:34 am says:

“....the U.S. population is aging… and white people is having less and less children. The economy needs workers and the locally grown boys and girls are not enouhg to provide for it, so there is a DEMAND for an alien workforce… Western Europe and Japan are facing the same problem, they need more young workers ....”

allowing that the above may be true (although I think not, Ford, The New York Times, and Disney just laid off a bunch of workers) it is a sitiation that the government has encouraged. 

If workers are needed to do the scut work, first show me that there is no physically able,person recieving a welfare check… Then, maybe I’ll listen to this argument.…

Giving folks a check for sitting on their ass, then complaining about lack of workers is just plain silly!!

The real thing is that the U.S. population is aging… and white people is having less and less children. The economy needs workers and the locally grown boys and girls are not enouhg to provide for it, so there is a DEMAND for an alien workforce… Western Europe and Japan are facing the same problem, they need more young workers but they don’t like the ones that they money can afford…

I refuse to bend to the RACIST BS that the Hispanic population (legal or otherwise) wants to use to cloud this debate. I refuse the listen to our government, who slaps the hand of those that employed the illegals initially- to gain a cheap dollar, and let the situation avalanche into what they now see is an immovable mountain. THEY DID IT, and we Americans are now powerless to fix it- stymied by a court of jesters playing powergames in a castle in Washington, under a King we call MONEY.

I have lost my faith, people, and you will too.

America, as we know it, WILL change. And it will change soon. Water in the Southwest is in short supply NOW. Global warming and man’s footprint on the Earth is an issue NOW. Is America smoking a crack pipe? There are bigger issues here than labor. Bigger than money. Lady Liberty’s arms are tired, and her teats are dry.

We HAVE to secure the border. Its not a matter of race. Its not even really a matter of RIGHT or WRONG. Its a matter of FACT or we will face our end via Civil War pt 2, or when we foolishly populate this land until it screams for utter mercy.

The threat is real. Wake up America, because the men of power have lulled you to sleep.

Regarding Comment #42235 by Frank Goodman, Sr.  on 12/14 at 4:44 pm

Horse poop!

We have already evolved to a society governed by laws rather than a society ruled by physical strength.

That may or may not be the best outcome, but it is our current reality.

I have no prejudice against poor, I worked with street children in these “united” states for many years, I do think we owe our own people (no matter their color or origions) first.... if there is anything left, we can decide at that point how to divide same.

Hello,

Fellow Earthlings: Rather than a border problem, we have a mental block. The Earth was populated by one or more migrations out of Africa some 50,000,000 years ago. There are no real borders except those embraced by the sea and by other barriers difficult to cross. It is much easier to cross the barrier of prejudice than to cross the Himalayas or the Pacific ocean. Mankind has populated the planet. The final barrier of space without oxygen or drinkable water is still keeping us here on spaceship Earth.

Population adjustment has already begun. People die of starvation regularly where production and economy cannot feed the population growth. In order for the next explosion of evolution of the human race there must be pressure on the population so that the fittest can actually survive. Some of those survivors may well be black, native American, and undesirables from the squalor of poverty worldwide. Tactics of survival precede strategies of success.

Most of the comments here dwell on ‘illegality’ of border crossing. It is one where the ‘haves’ fear the ‘have nots’ and wish to keep them out by law and order. Mexicans are mostly blends of native aboriginal stock with Hispanic conquerors. They are neither Hispanic nor aboriginal. But they are human like the rest of us lily white European sunburn freaks.

I propose a world without borders. Where people can come and go anywhere on Earth without passports or visas. Let us homogenize the human race, humanize Homo sapiens, and then colonize space. Let us launch our seed to distant planets in new worlds now unknown.

Let us get together in cooperation rather than apart in competition and pride of our own insignificance. Time to end apartheid in all its forms. Out of the crucible of togetherness will come the future of mankind. Truth is God.

The unrelenting illegal immigration of Latinos into the U.S. is changing the face of America.  The pending facelift will render America unrecognizable in the very near future.  In the very, very near future, Latinos will be the largest minority in the U.S.  In the foreseeable future, they could easily be the “majority”.  Then we can become a third world society like Mexico or Columbia.  Already in some of our states this has happened.  The clouds are gathering and our goverment ignores it.

Marc Cooper tells us the only “enlightened” position is McCain-Kennedy.

We’re so “enlightened” that we welcome 12 million (sic) folks into the US as permenant citizens, remembering that the first act these people committed on our soil was to break our laws.

Reminds me of Carter’s position on Cuba’s refugees.

The “enlightened” position is to use the resources of the wealthiest economy in the world to help our neighbor make their country more livable.

Any other position ensures we will have several billion folks crossing our borders from places that make Mexico look like heaven!

Piss on the folks who would sell us out for a cheap toaster!

We should treat Mexican illegals the same way Mexico treats it’s illegals from Mexico’s southern border. With jail. Period. End of story. How hypocritical of Mexico to expect the US to grant amnesty to 12 million lawbreakers, when Mexico simply jails the illegals that enter Mexico from their south. Not to mention the robbing and raping of them. Hello? Do the research.

I think if all of us so called Americans knew our History,YOU would know not only did we all originate from IMMIGRANTS. Also the land called Texas, etc were stolen away from Mexicans and land were taking away from Indians. So if you had any intelligence in you, you all would not be sitting on the computer making ignorant comments! Why don’t you go and do a family tree and see where you and your ancestors came from. I am a American citizen by birth, and I don’t see the problem with immigrants coming here for a better life. “Liberty and Justice for ALL”. and I am so tired of hearing people whine about immigrants taking jobs, if you spent less time on the computer and more time on trying to find a job, there would be no jobs to take.RIGHT

If people from Canada came here and bought houses next to yours for twice the asking price and your property valuations doubled and your taxes doubled then you’d want them out of here, also.  Immigration from the north can be just as economically disasterous as from the south. 
A 290-year-old Native American tribal chief was just asked what he would do differently this time around.  His reply:  Tighter immigration policy

-There really is no upper limit to human stupidity, is there? ----

I can’t think of any.

Must say there are a lot of good, well reasoned posts here but also many losers.

Suggestion, do that which if done universally would be universally good.

Must say the most humane and sensible thing to do is to improve the economies of all of the economies south of the border, especially the status of woman.

I’m against illegal immigration because it is illegal. da If we don’t enforce our laws we will eventually be no better than Mexico.  There should be a law to prosecute the people that hire illegal immigrants and it should be enforced with either jail time or a very large fine.

Comment #10265 by George on 5/24 at 2:46 pm.. he wrote:
“End the underground economy and get these business owners to start paying American citizens decent wages for a day’s work.”

I can agree with this easily IF we also keep on buying the higher-to-be-priced goods rather than importing them from China or Mexico.

Question: Why does someone leave their home and extended (or even immediate) family to walk perhaps thousands of miles--braving armed bandits and border patrols, suffering hunger, assault, rape, and perhaps death--in order to enter a country whose inhabitants speak an unfamiliar language and who often oppose the presence of such immigrants with incredibly strong emotion?

Response: It’s better than the alternative.

If we truly want to reduce illegal immigration, why not practice a little “preemptive peace” as a cheaper option than fencing and arming our borders?

Never mind whether it’s our responsibility to take care of the rest of the world or not. I’m not speaking about ethics or morality or right or wrong at the moment. It’s simply less expensive for us to act to reduce extreme poverty and its effects among our neighbors than it is for us to try to keep their most desperate refugees from entering our country.

I’ve worked with immigrants, both legal and illegal, in the United States. If we aren’t talking about the highly skilled professionals brought in through legal channels by big corporations to perform specific functions, but are instead talking about the vast numbers of impoverished people who prompt the current debate, then some generalizations are possible. Among these is the simple fact that these people would never have come here if their and their families’ situations had been tenable at home.

If we want to reduce the problems related to the flood of impoverished immigrants entering the US, let’s talk about agricultural subsidy reform and the ways in which we can allow farmers in other countries to feed their own people while earning a modest living. Let’s talk about requiring US employers to provide living wages and safe working conditions to their workers, regardless of which nations claim sovereignty over the factories’ soils. Let’s talk about paying for a little food, clean drinking water, medicine, and education--acceptably limiting the budget for such things to the amount previously spent to deter illegal immigration by force.

Let’s talk about the hard work of seeking and recognizing the causes of our challenges, so that we can address them directly, rather than bickering about how to patch over the symptoms.

Until the idiots that run the Catholic Church change their NO BIRTH control policy there will be no solution to this problem.
In the meantime maybe sending the bills to the Vatican would financially bankrupt an already morally and ethically bankrupt demagoguery

It is time to start arresting business owners who hire illegal aliens. Fine them too. End the underground economy and get these business owners to start paying American citizens decent wages for a day’s work. Send those who are here illegally home, and let them get in line to enter the country like all the other law-abiding would-be immigrants. No more special treatment for those who sneak across the border.

This whole arguement over immigration just illustrates the lack of intelligence in our government. If the current situation is considered a problem, then why look at the immigrants as the cause? The cause is the businesses who, in violation of Federal Law, continue to hire and employ undocumented aliens. If this practice were stopped - or if the current laws were enforced - there would not be “carrot” of jobs to entice illegal immigrants.

The most interesting ideas I get are the ones sent to me by friends, through accompanying emails attachments that I am urged to read. It goes without saying that I read everything I get. Often, instead of making the intended point on me that the sender desired it has just the opposite effect.

First let me assure you that many, if not most of the alleged original ideas that float about on the Internet are frauds. First the people’s names that are used for these mailing have nothing to do with the emails most of the time. Their names were simply used because they are media icons of some sorts and the names seem to give additional credence to the piece.

For instance I received this morning an alleged copy of a letter written by Ben Stein. The man is represented to have said, “Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish”! This is said as if the comments that follow relating to him not having any problems with Santa Claus, by a Jew would be the ultimate proof that Christianity is the absolute truth on earth.

He quotes “A woman by the name of Anne Graham gave an extremely “PROFOUND” and “INSIGHTFUL” response. She said, “I believe God is deeply saddened by this just as we are, but for years we’ve been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.”

HOW STUPID TO SAY SUCH A THING, IF GOD IS TO BE SADDENED I TRUST THAT HE WOULD BE MUCH MORE SADDENED BY THE 12 MILLION PEOPLE, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS WHO PERISHING IN THE GERMAN EXTERMINATION CHAMBERS. AND INSTEAD OF SEATING BY THE SIDELINE HE SHOULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS THING FROM HAPPENING! ISN’T HE THE ALL MIGHTY??????

INDEED THE SOONER WE GET RID OF RELIGION IN GOVERNMENT THE SOONER SANITY WILL BE ESTABLISHED TO THIS EARTH AND EVEN MAYBE ALL WARS WILL FINALLY SUBSIDE!

The Ann Graham continues her rambling with, “And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?” THAT IS THE MOST BACKWARD AND PRIMITIVE STATEMENT ANY ONE COUL HAVE UTTERED.

GOD is no gentleman, never was, never will be! GOD is God, he just is! He is not catholic, Mormon, Christian, Jewish, Islamic or anything like that! GOD just IS!

Continuing Graham’s comments “Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school; the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said “OK.”

BUT THIS LADY SEEMS TO FORGET TO MENTION THAT THE “CHRISTIANS” ARE MOST BLOODTHIRSTY PEOPLE AND THEY ACTUALLY ENJOY KILLING. THEY SEEM TO CARE NOTHING THAT ABOUT 100,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE PERISHED IN IRAQ! OF COURSE, AS MOST OF THESE PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED (BECAUSE ULTIMATELLY MANY CHRISTIANS ARE SECRETLY RACIST) ONLY AMERICAN LIVES COUNT!

Another HOT subject and email I received today relates to the illegal immigrants. While I realize the subject is complex and worthy of attention, lets look at some of the facts. ALL AMERICANS ARE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. AS far as I know the Indians never gave the white man permission to steal their territories, did they? No immigration papers were ever issued to your ancestors from the rightful owners of this land.

A subject that follows closely the immigrant’s story is, English being the official language of this country; thus every one should speak it! NONSENSE I SAY! We should all speak American Indian since this is the original language of the land. Besides there was a time in the US history that there were as many Germans as there were English people here. They even had to debate in congress, which they would adopt as official, English or German. English won by a NARROW margin.

I have to admit that the Latin population occasionally gets on my nerves in Miami by not wanting or being able to answer me in English, here in America! But there is no law – and there should be none – that English must be spoken if people don’t want to. No one is going to ever prevent MOI from speaking French any time I so desire to my wife in public and I absolutely don’t care what anyone is thinking about that.

Most people who decry this situation the loudest are ignorant people who know only one language and that, often just barely. You go to Paris France in the middle of the summer and you can hear all the tourists yacking away in English! Shouldn’t these same “sensitive people” who so ardently criticize other people speaking different languages in this country be all speaking French in France?

Or are Americans simply above all these mundane considerations because lets remember clearly at all times that America can NEVER be wrong!

For those of you who like to forward message, forward mine as well, make my day, PLEASE!

RGH

Thought on US immigration policy (better version than the one I posted an hour ago)

1) The least nebulous and most convincing of all of the immigration arguments are those that based on the assertions that a) the USA is over-populated right now or b) that it is not over-populated right now.

2) The second most convincing arguments are those that are based on cultural diversity (pro or con), growing the economy, bringing in skilled workers, keeping wages low (the real engine behind much of recent US policy), currying favor with ethnic voting blocks, or wanting to help or not help a particular ethnic group.

3) The least convincing arguments are the emotional ones such as my grandmother was an immigrant, we owe it to somebody due to history, their conditions, we are a nation of immigrants, you are a bigot if you oppose immigration, etc.

I believe that the USA is over-populated right now, so I support decreasing both legal and illegal immigration. For me, this argument trumps all others and thus there is no need for me to make any other argument in support of my views. I respectfully disagree with anyone who says the USA is not over-populated.

For the sake of discussion, let’s look at the other pro-immigration arguments mentioned above.
The cultural diversity argument. This one is good if you really believe it and really do not believe that the USA is over-populated.
Growing the economy. This argument is good if you do not believe that the US is over-populated right now, and are not disturbed by increased environmental degradation, urban sprawl, etc.
Bringing in skilled workers. This argument is good if their numbers are not too high. It should be remembered, however, that there are ethical problems with this argument as it contributes to the “brain-drain” of skilled workers from other nations in need of them.
Keeping wages low. This argument is bad because it harms American workers while allowing other countries (especially Mexico) to “let off steam” by removing exploited workers to the USA.
Currying favor with ethnic voting blocks. This argument is fundamentally selfish, racist, or ethno-centric.
Wanting to help or not help a particular ethnic group. This argument is also fundamentally selfish, racist, or ethno-centric.
My grandmother (etc.) was an immigrant. This argument is weak, based on emotion, self-centered, and logically fallacious as it takes a part to be the whole.
We owe it to somebody due to history. This argument is weak as it is based on emotion, a single interpretation of history, and implies a debt that can never be repaid.
We owe it to somebody due to rough conditions in their countries. This argument is also weak as it is based on emotion, has no end in sight, and is one of the worst ways to help other nations improve their conditions because it only delays political justice in their home states.
We are a nation of immigrants. This argument is weak because it is vague, emotional, based on a non sequitur, true of all nations, and has no end.
You are a bigot if you oppose more immigration. This is pure nonsense.

1) The least nebulous and most convincing of all of the immigration arguments are those that based on the assertions that a) the USA is over-populated right now or b) that it is not over-populated right now.

2) The second most convincing arguments are those that are based on cultural diversity (pro or con), bringing in skilled workers, keeping wages low (the real engine behind much of recent US policy), currying favor with ethnic voting blocks, or wanting to help or not help a particular ethnic group.

3) The least convincing arguments are the emotional ones such as my grandmother was an immigrant, we owe it to somebody due to history, their conditions, we are a nation of immigrants, you are a bigot if you oppose immigration, etc.

I believe that the USA is over-populated right now, so I support decreasing both legal and illegal immigration. For me, this argument trumps all others and thus there is no need for me to make any other argument in support of my views. I respectfully disagree with anyone who says the USA is not over-populated.

For the sake of discussion, let’s look at the other pro-immigration arguments mentioned above.
The cultural diversity argument. This one is good if you really believe it and really do not believe that the USA is over-populated.
Bringing in skilled workers. This argument is good if their numbers are not too high. It should be remembered, however, that there are ethical problems with this argument as it contributes to the “brain-drain” of skilled workers from other nations in need of them.
Keeping wages low. This argument is bad because it harms American workers while allowing other countries (especially Mexico) to “let off steam” by removing exploited workers to the USA.
Currying favor with ethnic voting blocks. This argument is fundamentally selfish, racist, or ethno-centric.
Wanting to help or not help a particular ethnic group. This argument is also fundamentally selfish, racist, or ethno-centric.
My grandmother (etc.) was an immigrant. This argument is weak, based on emotion, self-centered, and logically fallacious as it takes a part to be the whole.
We owe it to somebody due to history. This argument is weak as it is based on emotion, a single interpretation of history, and implies a debt that can never be repaid.
We owe it to somebody due to rough conditions in their countries. This argument is also weak as it is based on emotion, has no end in sight, and is one of the worst ways to help other nations improve their conditions because it only delays political justice in their home states.
We are a nation of immigrants. This argument is weak because it is vague, emotional, based on a non sequitur, true of all nations, and has no end.
You are a bigot if you oppose more immigration. This is pure nonsense.

Marc Cooper is one of those foundation liberals.
Marc Cooper has been co-opted.
http://stream.paranode.com/imc/portland/images/2005/05 /318106.gif
In fact I would be sceptical of the whole “The Nation” enterprise as they are very willing to call Bush a liar and a crook on the Iraqi War fiasco, but they could never countenance the Bush administration supporting a conspiracy that would bring down the WTC by controlled demolition(http://www.st911.org). As to the the Nations backers, they do have connections to Big Oil- http://questionsquestions.net/feldman/nation_bigoil.html. I would like to see if Truthdig has the belly to contemplate such things. As to the immigration issue, the MacArther Foundation, the same one that funds the Nation, also funds La Raza! http://www.nclr.org/section/about/funding/ Being that Marc Cooper and his colleagues depend on MacArthur grants, can we trust the indepence of their judgements? If you were to browse the list of La Raza’s funders, you would see the cream of America’s foundations supporting NCLR. There is something goofy about the Walton family and the AFL-CIO giving money to a group that is all about increasing without limit the supply of Latino laborers in the USA. Why does unrestricted immigration have such liberal bone fides? Why does Marc Cooper feel so comfortable keeping company with such champions of liberalism as The Coors Brewing Company??

I have been up an down, around and around on this issue. For the life of me how come I have not heard in all the arguments for and against immigrants who’ve crossed our borders. Why is it no one seems to question the Mexican’s goverments obvious duplicity for the reasons why well over 12 million of its lawful citizen’s wanting to take it on the heel and toe, instead of staying at home and fighting for whats rightfully their’s? Why is it that they, meaning those elected and responsible for the welfare of their fellow countrymen and women in Mexico, have not spoken up and said why they allowed trade deals that were not in the best insterest of those most affected by them to go forth? Why the so-called leaders of the different organizations seeking to allow those who have came (and are still coming even while I write and will still be comming by the time you finish reading this)have not spoken out about this? I personally think Americans of all stripes on either side of this issue would not mind considering getting behind and supporting their cause if, those calling for changes in the law where to take two a prong approach too their activism. One, work to expose the real reasons why so many people would want to flee their native land, home of thier ancestors and culture, and illegally cross the border into another country. Work to educate and enlighten their fellow countrymen who have not left yet to take a stand against the economic injustices that spur them toward wanting to leave instead, of staying and working for change. Start by also demonstating outside of every Mexican consulate office here cross the country, demanding change as well for more favorable trade policies. least, as some may begin to suspect that possibly some of those organizing the protest here are in fact, as well agents of the Mexican goverment trying to avoid wanting to face the music concerning growing economic discontent at home. I can’t help but wonder why they seem to have been let off the hook; meaning, the Mexican goverment by the so-called leaders of the protests here and want to soley direct thier efforts and focus on the U.S goverment changing its laws here? I think this one of the underling reasons some, if not a great number of Americans have failed to get behind and support thier effort and cause. Not to mention the background issues like the layoffs by the big auto companies have done, the outsourcing of jobs, tax cuts for the least in need of them, at the expense of those who need them the most. What I am saying is that there already a lot of sacrifices Americans have been asked to accept as it is. Now, they are again being asked to accept having to compete here at home in the name of free trade with the rest of the worlds poor dying to get here to do so.

The pull is fiction created by the greedy.  Its purpose is to disarm the resistance from the middle class who are “WE THE PEOPLE”. 

The illegal imigration is just one more way to take the fight out of U.S..  The rising costs in health care, pharmacutical drugs, and energy costs.  Take a chunck out of the middle class.  Many have lost jobs and are working both parents 50-60 hours a week just to pay bills.  Others who use to work all year long find themselves only working 3-5 months a year.  Especially in construction where illegals are illegally working for substandard wages and eating up tax dollars on a number of programs designed to help legal citizens make it through hard times. 

Insurance premiums have gone up dramactically in the last two decades close to 300% for healthcare and a major reason for that is to cover unpaid costs to hospitals who provide healthcare for illegal workers and their families who have no insurance.

Much of our manufacturing has moved to central America.  The illegals should stay home form unions and raise their own wages.

We could increase legal immigration by 10% - 20% and yes buy more from our neighbors and less from China.  That might help, but we cannot condone illegal immigration.

“We are a nation of immigrants.” So say, so many. Except Native Americans.

So all of “US” are immigrants or children of immigrants. Yet, the “American Ideal” of “huddled masses yearning to breathe free,” is dead. Perhaps a bit understandable given the ever increasing population rates meaning that population grows faster than cultures can adapt.

OUR ROOTS

But as American fight the latest immigration battle so many forget their own history. We have fought these battles before as “Our Country” grew from Western Europe (Spanish, English, French, Dutch, German and Portuguese) colonizers—the first true immigrants—all fighting to conquer land and control resources.

Then, as “Our Country” grew, more and more peoples immigrated. Polish and Irish. Cities grew and people were sectioned off from each other. Immigration controls began to be put into place and new battles were fought to limit immigrants.

All the while non-whites were horribly repressed.

Signs reading “Irish need not apply,” no longer can be seen in eastern cities, as the Irish became “white” and acceptable—along with others.

MIGRANT HISTORY

“Our Country” has had a large migrant worker population from Latin America for at least a century and a half. “They” have always been a part of the economies of the Americas. “They” have always been here.

AND NOW

Why, I ask you all, are you thinking that suddenly we have an “Illegal Immigration” problem?

Why, I ask you all, are you only now thinking about “Illegal Immigration”?

What was your thinking about “Illegal Immigration” last year? Five years ago? Ten?

Did anyone of you ever think of immigration issues ten years ago? Why now?

SOME FACTS

Sixty Percent of “Illegals” are overstays. I.e. They got here with a valid VISA and have stayed beyond their limit.

The 10-12 million “Illegals” did not just suddenly show up over the last few years.

All the “9/11 Terrorists” had valid VISAs and were not “Illegals”.

The U.S. Government controls the number of documents given to people to come into the U.S. from other countries.

The southern border dynamics have changed, concentrating the areas of crossings, giving those areas the appearance that more illegals are coming in. But the numbers of illegals has been steady for a long time, percentage wise.

--

The MSM has fired up the entire country and most everybody has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. Immigration began a “problem” only in the last few years by loud mouth scare tactics by supported by the MSM.

You have been duped.

Sure, we want more control of the borders. But let’s allow more immigrants to come in legally—i.e. give out more VISAs. Monitor the legal immigrants more closely. Enforce the current laws about corporate highering.

There is nothing to get upset about.

The illegal immigration issue has only one real problem:  Greedy Americans who hire illegals.  The illegal immigration issue has only one real problem:  Greedy Americans who hire illegals.

I don’t think it’s that simple.  In an efficient market, producers make a marginal profit over the costs of production.  If some factor lowers the cost of production, the efficient market take the prices down accordingly and the margin remains constant.  But any producer who doesn’t avail himself of the factor that lowered the cost of production can no longer compete and goes out of business.  In this case that factor is “the labor of illegal immigrants.” I’ll grant, however, that producers in inefficient markets (i.e., big businesses) get a profit boost from that same factor.

There is a similar effect on the other end.  Families in Mexico that send say a son to the U.S. to work and send money back, have more money to spend on a place to live, which drives up the prices of living quarters in the region, which forces other families to send a son to the U.S.

IMHO the villians are the politicians who fail to fund and implement our immigration laws, and the constituencies (including religious organizations) who for whatever reasons encourage such behavior.

My issue on this debate simply revolves around fairness.  There are around 6 billion people on this planet.  A significant amount of these people are impoverished and would dearly like to to immigrate to the US for the chance at a better life.  Up to 80% of the illegal immigrants in the US are from latin america.  Because they can easily cross a geographical border, they are entitled to “special” consideration over the millions that are separated by oceans or the millions that spent money and years enduring the long process of legal immigration?  Why would we reward those that “cut” to the front of the line?  Current polls show that most americans favor a guest worker program but I can’t believe that those same polls would support “special” consideration for those that have cheated our legal immigration system.  Nobody appreciates those that “cut” to the front of the line!  Should latin americans be treated more favorably than the congolese, bulgarians, cambodians or bangladeshis?

The illegal immigration issue has only one real problem:  Greedy Americans who hire illegals.  If businesses in search of labor would require a green card or the appropriate documentation to get a job, illegals would have nowhere to go except to enter the US legally, or return to Mexico.  Unfortunately, since there are many greedy people in this country who can make an extra buck on the backs of cheap illegal labor, I see no immediate solution. 
I have seen the enemy, and he is us.

Illegal immigration is hurting Mexican families in tragic, untold ways. 
Men leave wife and children behind, they come over here and have new children - meanwhile, even if they become legalized, their original family is irreparably damaged by absence of dad, and even if they too come to the US, they have to live with the fact that now dad has another relationship.

The main people who gain from illegals are businesses.  They get cheap labor, they get to expose workers to illegal hazardous conditions, and they volunteer the US taxpayers to pay the basic benefits for the workers and their dependents.

Don’t need to ship anyone back to Mexico.  Just catch illegal employers and stop providing state benefits.  Illegals will spontaneously return home to their families.

“Let’s hope that out of this season of immigration debate we begin to move away from myths and toward reality.”

Marc Cooper believes that it is myth that borders can be enforced and reality that “You can only hold [a basketball under water] so long and then the pressure builds up and it pops up and bursts through somewhere else.” He is obviously wrong on both counts.

There is a tremendous amount of disinformation about immigration on the left, and plenty of evidence that leftwingers have been co-opted on this issue by the advocates of cheap labour capitalism.

For excellent articles on the negative impact of mass immigration in the U.S. (including keeping African-Americans down), see

http://www.cis.org/topics/wagesandpoverty.html
and
http://www.cis.org/topics/blackamericans.html

For the example of Greece, see my latest blog post, which goes into the subject in some detail:

http://www.blogigo.co.uk/socialdemocracynow/entry/56778

MEXICO,MEXICO,MEXICO This issue isn’t just Mexico how about the cubians that are crossing in boats to get here or the chinese getting on boats to get here or the philipino’s that are taking flights and hoping they dont get stopped at the airports. What about every individual who did it legally, paid the price tag and waited the years to get here. What you just tell them so sorry for the effort but thanks for the money! Reform is the way to go. If the process was streamlined and alot cheaper for those people in these poor countries Illegal immigration may not be a problem.
My wife is a naturalized citizen. She was tring to get her sister over here but was told by ICE that the parents will have to come here first so they can petition for the siblings. To get the parents over here would cost about $85.00 dollars per petition plus the cost of the plane flight not to mention the cost obtaining all the paperwork that ICE will want on the parents end. Anyone that understand or have been to the Philippines know that keeping records was nonexistent 50 to 60 years ago so tring to find somebodys birth certificate is impossible. Without that you cannot process the paperwork so getting anybody over here does not happen. This is just for the philippines I can’t say anything for other country’s. With this in mind illegal immigration exsist. REFORM IS A MUST.
True reform will be to reconize that not all countries keep records like we do, and not everyone has someone in the US to petition them. The cost of filing keeps rising, and to get naturalized takes more of the same paperwork and more money.
Lets review a poor immigrant comes over here illegally and tries to make ends meet with what little pay he can come up with or try the legal way and find out that he does not have the money or resources to start the process. Keep in mind that $85.00 dollars equals to 4,388 philippine pesos, 998.4 mexican pesos. The processing fee may be less in the country the person is coming from but not much. 
Question: Which route does he take?

Congress isn’t going to really do anything about illegal imigration.  We have laws now that are not enforced.  The Corporate sponsors of our supposed represenatives will only continue to pad their treasure chests as long as the Corporations continue to get what they want.

We get wild rhetoric from two polar opposites that only clouds the real issue.  The issue is that the Corporate sponsors of our represenatives have declared War on the American middle class.  They pay in order to extort an unfathomable amount of our tax money from our pockets and they always get what they want.

Our only recourse is to throw the bums out and to continue to throw them out until they stand up for the working men and women of the United States.  They need to learn that there is not enough money to keep them safe.

As long as corporations are allowed to cross the borders of the world in their pursuit of revenues real people should be allowed to as well.

To deny this would be akin to admitting that corporations deserve more rights than human beings.

Is there a database of companies known to employ undocumented workers?

I agree with Cassini. Illegal immigrants are this year’s “queers.” Another boogyman to rile the Republican base all through the summer and into Novemeber. I’m sure GOP strategists are counting on “angry whitemen” to keep Republcian incumbents in control of the US House and Senate.

People opposed to an amnesty program for illegal aliens are living in a dream world because most of what they propose simply ISNT going to happen realistically. get a grip will ya?

President Bush ISNT going to issue a Order to “round up” 12 million illegal aliens in the U.S. and deport them.

Congress ISNT going to pass a law that makes being in the U.S. illegally a felony.

Congress ISNT going to pass a law that makes assiting or hiring illegal aliens a felony.

12 million illegal aliens are NOT going to “volunterally” leave the U.S.

Congres ISNT going fund the building of a 700 mile wall or fence along the southern border.

Adopt an alien (one, or a whole family)program
proposal would allow any number of immigrants into the U.S. and permit those at “odds” with the current system to put their money where their mouths are.
Of course, adoption would be the only LEGAL vehicle for an alien wishing to enter the country.
The adoptive party assumes ALL personal and finantial responsabitlties tied to the needs of their adopted immigrant individual or family.  This would begin with an immediate health checkup,housing, educational and employment needs for a five year period or until said immigrant passes an immigration test, and proves self sufficiency.

Any illegal caught here thereafter without designated sponsorship would be subject to immidiate detention and deportation.
This is nothing new...it’s been tried, and it will work. Our “problem” in this country is we keep trying to re-invent the wheel.
And have everybody pick up the tab for other “wheel ideas”: square, triangular, etc…

Pass this thought on to your representatives.  It’s so simple, maybe even they’ll get it…

Reguards, J.T.

Interesting forum.
My personal observations on the immigration issue (amongst others...)leads me to conclude the citizens on all sides of the political debate are in such finger pointing dissarray nothing will change.
Our representatives in both houses know this,and probably even enjoy it in their own perverse way.  This was a big issue in 1986 after the last “amnesty” debacle,when all manner of assurrances (read “promises..") were made and fundamental funding to keep them ignored.
It’s a good trick on the part of our so-called reps. Skilled in the art of hand wringing, second hand smoke blowing, and bogus promise making-in addition to expert “spring break taking.” The real “concern” there is all about power and re-election folks.  Thats it!
Bottom line is that the citizens in vast
majority want that boarder shut down NOW. Their response to this would be the same as a doctor treating his emergency patient for a bruise on his arm before stopping the severed feoral artery bleeding from the leg.
Most of our representatives (on either side of this “debate") act like their constituants out here are truly stupid, and suffer from attention deficite disorder.  From what I can see thus far, they appear right.
Failure to keep an oath of office, and derelection of duty however are criminal (notice I didn’t use the term “boarderline")offences for which us citizens are now paying in every aspect of daily life-from risk of disease, crime, and expense across the board.  Never mind loss of life on 9/11, try multiples of that since-directly due to congressional negligence on the matter of funding to secure the boarder.
Time for us to get our act together folks because the rest of the world thinks we’re stuck on stupid on this one.

Reguards to all citizens, J. Treskon

It seems very clear that there are many talking about reforms and about what should be done, but when in reality they aren’t even credible. How can anyone judge an immigrant without knowing their story or truly understanding the issues at heart. There are a multitude of resources available as to where to inform yourself but more than anything its a race and discrimination issue. I am an avid supporter of the Kennedy plan for immigration reform because it is the most feasible. Many are judging but more than anything it is out of ignorance, not education.

NO Mexican is ever “illegal” in any of the territory STOLEN form Mexico.