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DIG DIRECTOR

The Rev. Madison Shockley
The Rev. Madison Shockley is a minister of the United Church of Christ in Carlsbad, Calif. and a regular commentator on religion, race, politics and popular culture....










 

Jesus: The Man, the Myth

What is the truth about Jesus? What is the truth about the Christ? Are they the same truth? Are they the same person? Most people (religious and nonreligious) think of one person to whom they commonly refer as Jesus Christ as though Christ were this person’s surname. Christ is not Jesus’ last name but instead is an honorific title. It comes from the Greek word christos. The Greek christos is a translation of the Hebrew word messiah, meaning anointed one. This was the title of leadership given to Israelite kings and priests because they were doused or anointed with oil as a sign of their office. As it pertains to Jesus, he was called Christ as an expression of faith that he had been anointed by God as king and priest. The followers of this Jesus eventually gathered themselves into congregations of the Christ and ultimately into the Christian Church.

The truth about Jesus is that he was a human being who lived and died as every person born ever has. Jesus was most likely born in Nazareth of the Galilee and certainly was raised there. He was a Jewish wisdom teacher and exorcist/healer who lived in the Galilee province of the Roman Empire between 4 BCE (before the Common Era) and 30 CE. His mother was known as Mary. His father was likely Joseph.

The truth about Jesus is that he never intended to start a church or a new religion. He did not understand himself to be the divine Son of God; rather, he saw himself as the “Son of [hu]Man[ity]” or an “average Joe.” Not only did he not start a church, he joined the reform movement of John the Baptizer (aka John the Baptist), who was a popular and charismatic Jewish prophet.

So who is Jesus Christ? The Jesus Christ of most traditional theology is a distortion of both the Jesus of history and the Christ of the Christian faith—an attempt to take the metaphor of Christ and invest it totally in the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth. It is a distortion because it makes a very Jewish Jesus into the first Christian and not the faithful Jew that he was. The truth about “Jesus Christ” is that when we look only at this hybrid concept we lose clear sight of both the human being and the mythological icon. What we hope to do in this dig is excavate separately the man (Jesus) and the myth (Christ) and unearth a new meaning for the statement “Jesus [is] Christ.”

Evidence and Methodology

The first problem in disentangling the man from the myth is that we have no direct contemporary historical evidence of Jesus’ existence, let alone enough information to give us a true image of the man we seek. We only have faith documents, written decades after Jesus’ death, which by the admission of one “... are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name” (Gospel of John 20:31). The pursuit of this “de-mythologized” Jesus is known in academic circles as the “quest for the historical Jesus.”

The quest for the historical Jesus was born out of Enlightenment sensibilities and freedoms that liberated the Bible from the Church and made it available to nonreligious bodies for interpretation and study. Scientific inquiry knew no limits, and quickly the miraculous and mythical elements of the Christian texts came under strict scrutiny. This was not done lightly. One of the early “questers” published his work posthumously lest he come to an untimely demise. None other than Sir Albert Schweitzer conducted the most famous quest. We generally know him as the kindly physician, environmentalist and animal activist who lived out his life treating Africans deep in the jungle. But he became a physician only after a career as a professor of theology. His book “The Quest for the Historical Jesus” (1906) proclaimed that Jesus was an apocalyptic Jewish mystic who preached the imminent end of the world. Schweitzer says of Jesus, “When this did not happen, and the great wheel of history refused to turn, he threw himself upon it, [and] was crushed in the process….” Thus ended Schweitzer’s theological career.

The current quest began in the 1970s. The ethos of the early “questers” has now permeated most mainstream seminary curricula. Several generations of ministers have been trained in the historical-critical method that interprets the Christian texts from a literary and historical perspective and ignores the doctrines of the Church. This methodology constitutes the basic tools for those excavating Jesus from under the layers of faith, fantasy and fact that have covered him over the years. These historically trained ministers have carried on the traditional faith in their pulpits despite their new perspective, producing a phenomenon that Jack Good describes in his book “The Dishonest Church.” In academic gatherings they pursue the truth with passion, but in the local church they teach Sunday school lessons from generations past.

Therefore while much of this truth has been known in the academy, it has only trickled into the pews of the churches. The scholarship of the Jesus Seminar of the Westar Institute, a gathering of more than 200 professionally trained specialists, is at the forefront of this current quest for the historical Jesus. Their central contribution has been the publication of “The Five Gospels.” Not only does this work expand the Gospel canon from four to five (they hold the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas as having equal historical value to the traditional Matthew, Mark, Luke and John), but in a twist on previous “red-letter” editions of the New Testament, in which all the words attributed to Jesus are colored red, the scholars of the Jesus Seminar apply four different shadings to the words attributed to Jesus. Black for words strictly the product of the early church with no connection to the historical Jesus. Gray for words likely the product of the early church but consistent with the core message of Jesus. Pink for words consistent with the core message of Jesus but as likely to be the product of his earliest followers. Red for words that are consistent with the core message of Jesus and likely to have been spoken by him in similar form. Their conclusion: Only 20% of the words traditionally attributed to Jesus deserve a red or pink rating.

A major presupposition of the project was that Matthew and Luke used a common written document as a source of their sayings of Jesus. Such a document has never been found, but by isolating the ideas and sayings of Jesus that did not appear in Mark, the Jesus Seminar identified a body of sayings it called “Q” (the first letter of the German word quelle, which means source).  The scholars believe this document was the earliest written account of Jesus’ teaching and is therefore more relevant to understanding who the historical Jesus really was than any of the canonical Gospels.

Once the historical words of Jesus are separated from the speculative rhetoric of the early Christian church, a very different image of this man emerges. The next phase of the quest was to identify, by a kind of historical-literary triangulation, what this man Jesus actually did. Taking first what Jesus said and mapping the progression of what others said about him, the Jesus Seminar proceeded to develop an outline of his ministry and then his mission. By tracking the response to and interpretation of the words and works of Jesus by these writers they were able to discover how the image of Jesus grew. These findings are contained in another book from the Jesus Seminar, “The Acts of Jesus.

They conjecture that originally Jesus was received and perceived as a Jewish sage, a wisdom teacher with a message of unconventional wisdom who did some healings and exorcisms on the side. He preached a vision of the “Empire of God,” which was an alternative to the brutal Roman Empire, and available to anyone who followed the precepts of his unconventional wisdom. “Blessed are the poor” was certainly not a rational view of the world in which Jesus lived, yet it was the very foundation of his philosophy and theology.

Continued: The Death of Jesus
Dig last updated on Dec. 20, 2005


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Dig Director's Blog

Apr. 12, 2006

Hallelujah! Easter is almost here. Aren’t you glad? What’s that low sigh I hear? Ohhhhh that’s right, you’re one of those progressive Christians. Easter is probably the most conflicted time of the year among progressive churches, even more so than Christmas. Even a progressive Christian can reasonably assert that Jesus was really born, even as the debate goes on among others about how he was born. But this is not so with Easter. Either he was resurrected or he was not. And when we say he was not, then someone somewhere will quote I Corinthians 15:12 to us, “Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?”

- - -
Dec. 22, 2005

Shockley addresses reader comments regarding the historical Jesus and representations of “the Christ.”

- - -
Dec. 21, 2005

The culture wars have clearly gotten out of hand when the front line is Christmas.

- - -
 
 
 

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By tgambill, July 20, 2007 at 4:19 pm Link to this comment

I look forward to answering this well thought out response.  You do reflect very valid arguments and discussion.  I will stew….opps. I mean reflect on the post and respond.  smile)  The only stewing I really do is either lobster or beef…..You offer quite the challenge.

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By Annie Reitano, July 20, 2007 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

#88331 by tgambill on 7/20 at 2:41 pm
(4 comments total)

LOL Fair enough.  And I am sure that Willis can tell you that I am a peaceful discusser myself.  I believe that you have the right to believe in what I believe is mythology. 

Now as far as what you’ve just written, you have to have faith to believe in all of that.  And if you look at the definition of faith, you will find that it means “a belief in something for which there is no evidence of knowledge”.  And that’s what faith is…a lack of knowledge.  It’s a non-sequitur to say God is love and created evil (Isaiah 45:7) but will burn you for all eternity if you don’t love him back and accept Jesus.  Yet, his love is “agape” or “unconditional”.  I see conditions all over that.

With your sense of reason (which was Thomas Paine’s point) you know that love does not equal doing harm to someone.  And perfect love *casts out fear?*...surely should be held to even higher standards.  So, to believe that the very creator of evil—loves everyone but will burn them for all eternity and watch “the smoke of their torment rise up forever and ever in the presence of HOLY angels” (Revelation 14:9-11) is as silly to me as Allah and Mohammed’s little theme song about their angels.  It’s hard to believe and even harder to imagine that a loving god would allow for a Satan to tamper with his very WORD…much less fool all of his beloved creatures by toying with his words so that they would burn in that “loving” hell.

Do you see how that makes no sense?  Also, God/Jesus will fail to the serpent again as most will never accept the idea of him…and it’s getting even less by the day.  He died for very little, indeed.  By the bible’s own words, “there are none righteous, no not one.”...so the few that DO believe in Jesus must be pretty lame in the eyes of God.  Thje score is like ..the devil 349 billion, Jesus: 1 billion.  The odds are not in his favour.  He loses in the garden, and he loses on earth.  It’s so mythological…even numerical.  Tell you what, ...watch this http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com  It’s got a very good beginning about Jesus and religion, but the rest of it, to my way of thinking, is a lot of conspiracy theories.  They may be true, but maybe not.  Anwyay, I would like your feedback on the movie.  Bear in mind, you can’t blame everything on devils if people are going to be held accountable. 

Thanks, smile

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By tgambill, July 20, 2007 at 3:58 pm Link to this comment

Annie,

you are correct there is a 100% chance that he is a false prophet, lying and deceiving the people on here.  One can tell the truth here but it will effect only a handful of people.  Certainly it is worth writing, it will become apparent in the final days which are coming closer and closer.

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By tgambill, July 20, 2007 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

Annie Reitano on 7/20 at 2:14 pm

I have to respectfully disagree, as I’ve been on this journey for a long time.  Thomas Payne was wrong in many respects.  Even Einstein has trouble with God of the Bible even though he proved to himself, (personal reflection in his work), that a “superior reasoning force or power” existed he could not accept the God of the Bible.  This is because the Holy Spirit convicts us supernaturally and we try very hard to deny it’s presence. 

What I wrote is exactly correct as also supported by the book I mentioned plus the irrefutable documentation contained in the King James Version of the Bible.  The other versions are distorted in very subtle ways. Man has hijacked Religion and used it to force wars, slavery et al, but this was not intended by God as jesus was his son and his word that became flesh.  Satan has been working hard to discredit his word in many different ways.  There will be a time in the near future that this will manifest itself leaving no doubt. 

This is written in respect as I don’t flame any longer as I did in the past in other forms.  I’m a former flamer…..smile)  lol….  Especially on this subject as it’s a very serious issue when people’s souls are at stake.

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By Annie Reitano, July 20, 2007 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

#88320 by tgambill on 7/20 at 1:30 pm
(3 comments total)

Not entirely true.  Many people such as myself and Thomas Paine…:) have read the Bible and see it for what it is…mythology.  I was once a believer and missionary.  A lot of people on here know that but it bears repeating.  I know about all three Abrahamic religions from my own seeking; and they’re all tales of men

If Jesus existed, who’s to say?  He left no trace of himself yet claims are made that he wants a personal relationship with people but then “tells them” through bronze age tribesmen 2k years ago.  I can’t think of a more impersonal way to try and “get personal”.  Also, leaving no evidence and only men who he supposedly said had hearts that were “desperately wicked, who can know it?”..and expecting us to believe in him through their very writings; and THEN hinging our eternal destiny upon the writings of “wicked men”....that’s more tban enough evidence for me that the Bible was written by primitive man for primitive men.  Jesus allegedly said that not one dot or tittle would be left out of the Law before he would return.  In fact, he also claimed that he came to fulfill the Law.

So, as a Christian, bear that in mind the next time your son is rebellious.  Try and remember that the Law said to stone him to DEATH. 

When men create gods, they need men to perpetuate the god.  So, it is with YHWH, Allah and Jesus.  Politics.  There are over 20k denominations based off of Christianity alone.  Each say the other is wrong.  They can’t all be right…but they can all be wrong.  There is plenty of evidence that show they are all wrong.

And as for the book of Revelation, for a God who said that he wasn’t the author of confusion, I can’t think of a more befuddling and confusing book.  Both theologians and the religious have mulled over that book for centuries and STILL no ONE religion has the same interpretation than any other.  The religious, fundamentalist types believe it’s about a “rapture theory” that never came about until 1830 when a guy named John Darby used a few mysterious passages of the Bible to come up with that theory.  Catholics maintain Revelation is an allegory while theologians believe John was talking TO the Romans about Nero who was referred to as the beast of man because of the Barbaric way in which he handled Christians.  They claim that the four horsemen, the seven headed dragon and all the mythologicla symbolism would have been clearly understood by the Romans. 

Too bad for us.  It can’t be interpreted one single way.  Just like religions and gods, make it in your own image.

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By tgambill, July 20, 2007 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

To Jim H. you are certainly off track.  It will take much more to stir your soul to the truth.  Certainly this fits the category of “He doth protest too much”.  This is the beauty of free will.  However, the downside are the repercussions. 

One thing for sure, he can be denied but no one can prove that the Bible is not true or is false.  Those that attempt to, always fail and end up believing.

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By Jim H., July 20, 2007 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

THERE NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, WAS A “JESUS”!

RELIGION = ABSOLUTE BIGOTRY!  A CONTAGEOUS DISEASE!
  It is the putrid vomit of criminal minds!
There is no excuse for intelligent people to be so ignorant of facts about the charlatan fantasies and make-believe pretenses of religion, that works to undermine the true Democratic principles and unifying influences of our Democratic Society! To promote, propagate, profligate or publish the same pretentious and pompous falsehoods that are the evil tools used by Fallwell, Baker, Haggard, the Pope, and their ilk to brainwash, indoctrinate, brand, and subjugate innocent children and fools for the purpose of using them to gain ever more money, power, and divisive influence, is tantamount to supporting pimping, and prostitution.
And because those charlatans use their evil schemes and lies to control, and enslave those misled ‘bovine-like’ advocates by rendering them ‘virtual’ robots that do their bidding; they are criminals, and those supporting them, are criminal cohorts, equally guilty of the crimes they commit against humanity, those fools, and the children.
The vast majority of “religious” people were: forced into their ‘belief’! They had no say in the matter, they were imposed upon, brainwashed, and indoctrinated when innocent and defenseless! They were not old enough, wise enough, or informed enough to make a decision, or to determine the value of the information passed to them by elders who, they were taught to obey and were not able to question or contradict! And, generation, upon generation the same methods have been perpetually used and promoted by a big gang of thieves as their victimizing schemes to rob people of their pristine mental facilities and their ability to determine fact from fiction! 
Most religious indoctrinated “children” never reach an “age and ability” to recover from the ‘desease’!
‘Religious’ “parents” already mezmerized and ‘indoctrinated’; are the absolute worst ‘indoctrinators’!(because, they have first access to the innocents at the earliest age!)
Religious parents mind’s are warped by the charlatan’s lies and fairytales, and by passing it on, they are naive, unwitting cohorts of the ‘criminal’ charlatans’; and are abetting the spread of the infectious plague-like desease called “Religion”!  These “parents” are criminals! They are guilty of ‘branding’ and ‘warping’ the ‘pristine’ minds of the innocent defenseless children and robbing them of the mental acuity
they were born with.
Religion’s evil bigotry has relegated all non-religious people and realists, to a lower class ‘infidel’ status.
And, the time has arrived for all ‘Secular’ Organizations, and realists to seriously consider aligning under one ‘banner’ to fight the fight of our lives; to overcome the deadly influences of those religious fanatics who intend to overthrow our once Democratic Government and accede to domination of our society by brainwashing innocent children and fools, infecting them with the plague-like desease called “Religion”
and thus branding and converting them into mezmerized, robot-like monsters, and cohorts, suborned to ever ceaseless efforts aimed at gaining total, and complete control over our entire way of life.

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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By Jim H., July 20, 2007 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

88256  

tgambill

You say”—- purchase the Book—-”(?)

I say: Books by deluded imberciles, are for idiots!    ‘I’, do read idiots books!

You say: “No question Jesus “was”—-”    (This is a LIE!)

I say:  WRONG!  The fairytale makebelieve character “Jesus”, never even existed”!  NEVER “WAS”! 
In ALL the FACTUAL HISTORY of ‘that’ era, there is not one iota of EVIDENCE that such a person was ever born, or existed!  And this, despite all of the so-called “Great Magical” “MIRACLES” ‘he’ was supposed to have performed!  These ar the FACTS!

THE MAKE-BELIEVE JESUS! 
Further,  After the recent discovery of Essene documents at Kimberth Qumran (Palestine) it has been PROVEN! that Jesus was the result of an artificial construction operated by (charlatans) falsifiers in the second century!
And: Former Priest, Luigi Cascioli says :“Jesus never existed! ” in his book, “The Fable of Christ”!
Cascioli SUED the Catholic Hierarchy to show proof!  They could not do it! Signor Cascioli? said: “there is no reliable evidence that Jesus lived and died in 1st-century Palestine! Therefore, “there is no basis for Christianity”!
It’s all a FARCE! NO “JESUS”! , NO “GOD”!  Nothing but criminal charlatan’s lies!

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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By willis, July 20, 2007 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Christianity is based on Jesus followers.
Followers of Jesus were called Christians by the Jewish leaders because they followed the Jesus Christ. Jesus gave all respect to GOD and came to glorify GOD. Jesus did not profess to be a Christian and did not come to earth to start a new religion. Jesus was a JEW and came to earth to forfill the law. During those times the Jews constantly broke the law, everyone was a sinner. So even the Jews worshipped idols. When moses went up on the mountain to get the ten commandments the Jews made a calf to worship. So as I said, they all were sinners. So why do we expect sinners in this present day to practice religion in the correct way, in a way that gives glory to GOD? No one has every done that correctly except a small hand full of people. But I say it is not religion that is the evil thing but it is evil people that use relgion to spread more evil or to satify their selfish wants. That is why I do not say I belong to a certain religion. I was raised a baptist because this is what my parents are. But I took religion into my own hands and did my own research. Then with this research I have used the mind that GOD has given me to determine what I should have faith in. At this time in my life I consider myself a believer such as the believer that Abraham was. Many people tend to do evil things whether they believe or disbelieve in GOD. I have faith that there is a GOD and we were put on this earth to be tested to see if we are good enough to come to GOD. Those of use who do good works and spread love will be rewarded and those who spread hate and hurt will be punished. I think we all go through different test under differnt difficulties and situations and because of this complexity only GOD can judge us fairly. I think there were a lot of things and practices in the olden times that were neccessary due to that acient time period but in this new age those prcatices are no longer relevent. I think the practice of love in your mind, heart, and actions is what is truely relevent during this present time. And I believe that anyone who is constantly committend to having Love in their mind, heart and actions are truly sons and daughters of GOD even if they do not believe in GOD.


Willis

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By tgambill, July 20, 2007 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

To make a long story very short, if those that do not believe want to know the whole truth, then purchase the Book named “More than a Carpenter”, by Josh McDowell. 

No question Jesus was and is the Son of God.  The Bible tells us all what really happened and what will happen soon.  The New World Order that is coming around is the model for the Revelation as John wrote about.  Millions know this already. 

One could writehere for any period of time but would not change a thing regardless of the facts presented.  It’s a very strong and emotional subject that will be coming to fruition soon.

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By Annie Reitano, April 12, 2007 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

“Strange and bizarre that “Christianity” is based on two of the greatest fables ever devised by mankind – Christmas and Easter”.
By John M Sandoval

In total agreement!  The Roman Catholic Church started adopting these fables after the greeks did.  Suffice it to say that Jesus wasn’t the first said Messiah to be born of a virgin, either.  Easter is clearly pagan with the eggs and bunnies—even Christians should be able to see this since it’s “Adding to the word of God” which is deemed a sin according to the bible.  And as far as Christmas goes?  That’s just plain rebellion of the Jews’ Torah laws:
“Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. . . . They are altogether brutish and foolish.” (Jeremiah 10:2-8)

So what do the Christians do to “one up” the Jews?  They invent something to really piss them off and call it Jesus birthday or “Christmas”

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By john m sandoval, April 12, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is (in fact)  plenty of truth in the bible - and it serves Atheists - Christians are only gullible people, who are devoid of simple mental reasoning.

              Easter Sunday

Happy Easter we say, and we are so jovial about it !
What do Easter and its symbols have to do with Christianity ?

I read in the “Bible” that “Nimrod” son of Kush (an Atheist) married his mother “Semiramis” in order to rule the kingdom. Nimrod was assassinated by his uncle a believer of the Jewish God Jehovah, for claiming to be a God.
Nimrod was historically placed among the stars as “Orion” (in the constellation of Orion the great hunter) as the “Sun God BaaL.”
Nimrod’s wife & mother Semiramis, assumed the throne (in old Iraq) claiming to have been dropped from heaven into the “Euphrates” river in the form of an egg.
Semiramis was worshiped as a Goddess and became known as “The Queen of Heaven.” At the Spring Festival in April they celebrated in the name of Spring Fertility, worshiping “Semiramis” as “The Queen of Heaven” with prayers, offerings & sacrifices. (as per the Bible) That is the origin of the Easter bunny and the Easter eggs. Supposedly Semiramis ascended to heaven and became “the Moon” and the populace worshiped the Moon.
Observe the Jewish Festival of the June Moon.
That is why millions of Atheists as well as millions of Christians celebrate “Easter Sunday.” (eggs & bunnies – have nothing whatever to do with the Crucifixion)

Strange and bizarre that “Christianity” is based on two of the greatest fables ever devised by mankind – Christmas and Easter.
By John M Sandoval

Rev. chap. 1 verse 20 says; The seven stars of “Orion” (in the constellation of “Orion”) are the angels of the seven churches.
ref.  Jeremiah chap. 44 verses 15, 19, and 25

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By Jim Hanley, April 12, 2007 at 8:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“JESUS”, Just like DONALD DUCK, NEVER!, NEVER!, NEVER! EXISTED!!!
Rev. Shockley Says: “—-we have no direct contemporary historical evidence of Jesus’ existence—-” (!) ERGO: I say: “JESUS”, Just like DONALD DUCK; NEVER!, NEVER!, NEVER! EXISTED!!!
THERE NEVER!, NEVER!, WAS A JESUS! YOU ARE PROMOTING CRIME!  Wake up!  Stop promoting that Ponzi-like racketeering scheme that coerces children and fools into performing atrocious acts! 
THE MAKE-BELIEVE JESUS! After the recent discovery of Essene documents at Kimberth Qumran (Palestine) it has been proven that Jesus was the result of an artificial construction operated by falsifiers in the second century. And: Former Priest, Luigi Cascioli says “Jesus never existed” in his book, ‘The Fable of Christ’ He has a lawsuit pending against Catholic Hierarchy to show their proof!
AND THE WORLD IS NOT FLAT!
RELIGION = ABSOLUTE BIGOTRY! A CONTAGEOUS DISEASE!
  It is the putrid vomit of criminal minds!
There is no excuse for intelligent people to be so ignorant of facts about the charlatan fantasies and
make-believe pretenses of religion, that works to undermine the true Democratic principles and unifying influences of our Democratic Society! To promote, propagate, profligate or publish the same pretentious and pompous falsehoods that are the evil tools used by Fallwell, Baker, Haggard, the Pope, and their ilk to brainwash, indoctrinate, brand, and subjugate innocent children and fools for the purpose of using them to gain ever more money, power, and divisive influence, is tantamount to supporting pimping, and prostitution.
And because those charlatans use their evil schemes and lies to control, and enslave those misled
‘bovine-like’ advocates by rendering them ‘virtual’ robots that do their bidding; they are criminals, and those supporting them, are criminal cohorts, equally guilty of the crimes they commit against humanity, those fools, and the children.
The vast majority of “religious” people were: forced into their ‘belief’! They had no say in the matter, they were imposed upon, brainwashed, and indoctrinated when innocent and defenseless! They were not old enough, wise enough, or informed enough to make a decision, or to determine the value of the information passed to them by elders who, they were taught to obey and were not able to question or contradict! And, generation, upon generation the same methods have been perpetually used and promoted by a big gang of thieves as their victimizing schemes to rob people of their pristine mental facilities and their ability to determine fact from fiction! Most religious indoctrinated “children” never reach an “age and ability” to recover from the ‘desease’! ‘Religious’ “parents” already mezmerizedand ‘indoctrinated’; are the absolute worst ‘indoctrinators’! because, they have first access to the innocents at the earliest age!
Religious parents mind’s are warped by the charlatan’s lies and fairytales, and by passing it on, they are naive, unwitting cohorts of the ‘criminal’ charlatans’; and are abetting the spread of the infectious plague-like desease called “Religion”!  These “parents” are criminals! They are guilty of ‘branding’ and ‘warping’ the ‘pristine’ minds of the innocent defenseless children and robbing them of the mental acuity
they were born with.
A true “God” would expect credence for reason; not an idiot’s fear!

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By Annie Reitano, April 11, 2007 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

To Yuz Asaf;

“Annie, Wow, my heart goes out to you. I had no idea how recent your revelation had been.”

Don’t feel too badly for me.  Deep inside I always knew something was off, but thought it would be easier to do good if I were religious.  You know what?  I am a better person now—without religion.  Deep inside, I was always like Father Jean Meslier—an “apostate” atheist who just didn’t want to say it out loud.  smile

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By Synaptrik, April 11, 2007 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment
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Nazareth didn’t exist in Jesus’ time. They created it approx 300 years later.

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By Yuz Asaf, April 8, 2007 at 12:24 am Link to this comment
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Roy, What a coincidence, I’m listening to the same CD’s this weekend.
Annie, Wow, my heart goes out to you. I had no idea how recent your revelation had been. Most of the atheists that have said when they realized the truth were in their teens as was I. I am a male chauvinist pig of the highest order, meaning I put females on a higher pedestal than males. When I was about six my neighbor Joan who would have been about eight at the time said to me “Do you know what little boys are made of?” and i said no and she said “Snails and puppy dog’s tails” and she asked “do you know what little girls are made of?” and I hesitated and said “poop?” and she shouted “NO!, GIRLS ARE MADE OF SUGAR AND SPICE AND EVERYTHING NICE!“  Six year olds are impressionable and a belief system that was chiseled into your brain , even by and eight year old, are hard to erase. No question about it. Women are more important than men. A close friend is Jewish and recently he had questions about Christianity in particular the Marys of the New Testment. Since then we have continued a religious dialog. Our conversations have not been combative but some where along the line I mentioned that people tend to be the same religion as their parents suggesting that was a poor reason to commit to a belief in a god. He agreed. I no longer feel guilt because i don’t believe in a god. I have even contemplated getting an American Atheist logo tattooed on my forearm. That reminds me . My dues are due. As I said before, my heart goes out to you. best wishes.

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By Annie Reitano, April 7, 2007 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

Hi Roy!

I always wondered why age has to preclude anything.  I have two friends in this world.  I have several buddies, but only two friends and one of them is 64 years old.  I will be 44 this month.  And it was a year ago, after serving as a missionary for 20 years that I finally admitted to her, in church and out loud, “I am not a Christian.  I do not believe in this stuff anymore.”  I had been listening and looking around at the marble pillars and the people dressed in fur and diamonds and I just rolled my eyes and impulsively said it.  I have been free from it’s tricks ever since and can say in all honesty that I have been on both sides of the tracks and this side is no different except there is no fear.  smile  Religion is mind control through fear.  Atheism is letting go of it all and letting it be.

Enjoy Sam Harris.  I bought his books.  I read “Letter to a Christian Nation in one setting and thought maybe I should volley to get those put in hotel rooms right along side of the Gideon bible.  wink

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By Roy E Oetting, April 7, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Annie,
  It was fun to imagine that we could have lunch sometime but I don’t think we live very close. I’m 63, by the way, but our age difference wouldn’t preclude friendship. It is Easter weekend and so I thought I would listen to “Letter to a Christian Nation” by Sam Harris. The CD is read by Jordan Bridges and while he does a good job I was expecting Sam Harris to speak. I’ve listened to the first disk and he starts out on the right foot demonstrating all the hypocrisy that there is in the Bible. My thought is that he should have just continued to discredit Christianity but instead he attacks their stand on stem cell research. A person’s point of view on stem cell research isn’t necessarily aligned with religion.  An atheist may object to stem cell research while a Christian may not. He did a nice job of pointing out that the Ten Commandments is really a poor guide to morality. Some judges in this country would have you believe that they are the basis for law.  Overall I think it is worth listening to. I’ll listen to the second disk tomorrow.

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By Annie Reitano, April 6, 2007 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

#62497 by Yuz Asaf on 4/06 at 10:25 am
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Hi Annie, I like the way you think. Are you married. I am not at this time.


Thanks Yuz Asaf,

Likewise!  And no, I am not married.  I am 43 and haven’t been married since I was 26 years old!  smile

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By The Skeptical Cynic, April 6, 2007 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment
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Santa Claus is for children.
God is just Santa Claus for naive adults.

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By Yuz Asaf, April 6, 2007 at 11:25 am Link to this comment
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Hi Annie, I like the way you think. Are you married. I am not at this time.

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By Yuz Asaf, April 5, 2007 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment
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Willis, I can only carry you part of the way. If you insist on ignoring what archeologist are finding then you will continue to sound silly when you post. I could have sworn I had posted the other day a number of examples such the fact that they were making pottery in Japan 12000 years ago, yes I’m sure I did. Well there is no point in writing a long winded argument if this web site continues to loose them. One more comment, Willis you don’t seem to mind writing a lot of words so why not be specific on what you do and do not believe. I’ve asked you to do this before. Noah? Adam and Eve? Sasquash?

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By Yuz Asaf, April 5, 2007 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment
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Jimmy, Everyone should have the right to question anything. Which god were you referring to, Apollo, Bacchus, Dionysus, Osiris, Thor, Neptune, which? I kind of like Osiris myself.

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By Annie, April 5, 2007 at 1:52 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #62312 by Jimmy on 4/05 at 9:33 am

“i think this isn’t cool at all no one has the right 2 question GOD just because they don’t believe how about going to church”.

Hi Jimmy,

I went to church for 43 years, 20 of which I was a missionary.  And if you read your bible, you would see clearly that God asks you to question him and study him.  Read the book of Job, a servant that was put through utter hell because why?  God said he did it to Job “without cause”.”

“And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3)

In other words, for no reason.  So, Job whined in anquish and questioned, questioned, questioned.  In the end, God blessed him with 70 times what he had before.  (as if replacing someone’s family is going to make up for the loss of his beloved first family).  Clearly men wrote the bible and not some god.  Think about it.  Really think.  Why would a deity need primitive, desert dwelling secretaries to writedown what it is he wants us to know?  These are the same creatures that he drowned because he was so sorry he made them, the ones he cast out of the garden because they couldn’t get one request right.  Yet he trusts them to get his words right for all time and not mess it up.  Well, there are over 500 translations of the Bible. They can’t all be right, but they can all be wrong.  And there are over 20,000 denominations based on Christianity.  Someone fouled up the almighty’s words.  Funny he would allow that and then hinge our eternal destiny on the mistakes of other men.  BAHHH!!! There are three Abrahamic religions that all claim to be true.  Again, they can’t all be true, but they can all be wrong. 

I did go to church and I studied, and discovered that he was made in man’s image and not the other way around.  Since that’s true, I have every right to question myself.  Because I am my own god just as you are.  If you think about it, whoever you dislike, God does too.  Whoever is your enemy, is God’s enemy as well and he will avenge you.  Whatever you feel guilty about, it’s because you believe God thinks it’s wrong.  Only it’s YOU who thinks it’s wrong based on the erroneous and hideous written words of men in a supposedly Holy Book.  If you think about it with honesty, you will see that god is an extension of your thoughts and your sense of reasoning regarding the Bible as well as what your parents and peers taught you.  Because if you really believed all of the Bible, (for example) you’d stone your wife for not being a virgin on her wedding night, you’d own slaves, you’d stone your son when he’s disobedient and you’d do it to the death.
“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.” (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

“And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:17) “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he that cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.” (Leviticus 20:9)

You are your God.  Question it. smile

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By Jimmy, April 5, 2007 at 10:33 am Link to this comment
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i think this isn’t cool at all no one has the right 2 question GOD just because they don’t believe how about going to church.

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By Yuz Asaf, April 3, 2007 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment
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Yes Willis there are people putting together what was happening 7000 years ago and actually back to the beginning of settlements 12000 years ago. You can say they don’t have a way to measure the time but you are only kidding yourself and anyone else who may be afraid of the truth. They know when things happened by different means but lets just take carbon dating. Carbon dating has been calibrated by going back to before a major event in time occurred and then carbon dating the materials that were their. This confirmed that the carbon dating is reasonably accurate.  They are not limited to 12000 years but that is when things seam to accelerate. Twelve thousand years ago the beginning of settlements are springing up. Pottery is already being made in Japan. A stone structure is built in Jericho.  To me what happens, the progress,  over the next twelve thousand years is really amazing. It is to bad you refuse to learn.

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By willis, March 30, 2007 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
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HI Yuz Asaf,

You are telling me stories about what science believed happened 7000 years ago. No one on earth today or no one even 1000 years ago actually knows what happened 7000 years ago, there are only guesses. My point is that based on science we make theories on what happened but they are not facts. Science is not a fact, it is only about theories of what may have happened 7000 years ago based on limited evidence. If you or I were not there then why should we belive. Isn’t this the same argument that is made by people who do not belive in GOD or the bible (so I am using this same argument against those who use it). I have not said that I belive that everything in the bible happened as it is written for I think there are translation issues and that some things may have been said as metaphors and examples written in stories so the message of love and right and wrong could be communicated. But whether you talk about the bible or science, it all still comes down to blind faith. The very scentific things you talk about that happened 7000 years ago are believed to happened by some sceintist while there are other scientist who disagree. There are also some scientist who have gathered evidence that some things in the bible actually happened (but yet you do not believe them). Is it fair for you to pick and chose the scientist you believe when it suits your argument and if the scientist doesn’t suit your argument you do not mention or believe in them? So once again it still comes down to faith. Whether all the things is the bible happened or not is still immaterial to me, because I believe in the prime dirrective of the bible which is to love your neighbor and I belive in GOD. Whether you believe in GOD/Jesus or not, it all comes down to faith.  Why is the bible the number one selling book. It is mighty strange that for someone who does not exist to have such a strong following as Jesus does. Who does not know about Jesus I ask. For someone, who you say, who has never existed, it is pretty amazing that just about most of the world knows of him. I think that this in itself is truly a miracle. It is a powerful book and some see the words and use it for evil purposes and some see the words and use it for good. This will always be true, even in science it is true. You have those who use science, such as atoms to make energy and those who use atoms to make bombs to kill people. Then we turn around and blame GOD for all the bad things or for not stopping bad things for happenning. God gives us a brain and a heart to use. We humans are the intelligent beings and GOD gave use choices and free will, without that we would merely be robots, so what would be the point in testing us. But if we must blame someone then we must first look at ourselves for the wrong that we do as a person and as a community. Man has evil ways and desires and this is where the true blame lies. Even GOD’s chosen people did not follow the right path when GOD was amongst them. They turned away from GOD. We are the ones under test on this earth not GOD, it is us who will be judged not GOD. So my friend all I can say is that I have made a choice to have faith and to try to be a good neighbor and hope that when I die GOD will have mercy on my soul and permit me to go to heaven. No one will ever shake my faith in GOD, only my faith in man has been shaken and how man uses religion for the wrong purposes. For there is nothing wrong with religion, but the wrongness lies within man and this will be a problem until the end of time. For Jesus did mircles in front of people and they still did not believe that he was the messiah, so if what makes one belive that if the bible was more clear that people would listen. When God gave his chosen people the ten commandments they still broke the commandments. These commandments were very clear, but yet people still did not follow the right path, so you see the problem is not GOD or Religion but the problem is man.

willis

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By Yuz Asaf, March 29, 2007 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Willis, I think I was censored in my last reply. This time I’ll just start out by saying - no Jesus was not the son of god. The premise that he was is based on a prophecy when David was king. So you believe in the Bible over science. According to what i have read the Bible was compiled from four other texts some 2500 years ago and the two that make up the most of it including Genesis were written a couple hundred years before that and more than 700 years after Moses. So Moses didn’t write Genesis.  According to a Roman historian Moses took charge of the people who were thrown out of Egypt after a plague had killed and disfigured many. These people drifted east and killed and took over villages in what is now Israel. That sort of parallels the Exodus story doesn’t it? Why wouldn’t we have better records about this? Perhaps it is because the early Christians destroyed the libraries . When you read the Bible and when Noah is building the ark you get impression everyone is evil and that is why God kills them. In reality there were a bunch of peaceful civilizations such as the Egyptians, Greeks, Cretes, Indians, Chinese and Japanese and Persians. None of them noticed the flood. Bible error?  How can you possibly believe in Noah and the ark. What about Adam and Eve? According to the Bible they lived about 6000 years ago. The problem is that there were plenty of people all over the world which would mean the Bible is wrong about that too including how God created the Universe. These are the big bible stories that you learn about in Sunday school and they are all myth so what part of the Bible do you believe in? I know how about the huge volcano that occurred about 74000 years ago that almost killed all the humans, oh wait a minute that isn’t in the Bible. Science has figured out that one, oh that’s right you don’t believe in science because it’s always changing but do you know what all the science and physics you use at work is a couple hundred years old or more but it still works doesn’t it? As the song goes “Give me that old time science.”

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By Annie, March 28, 2007 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment
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When Christianity fades, and it will, there will be other gods to take it’s place.  It’s always been this way.  Mithra, Adonis, Zeus, etc…they were all gods born of virgin women (what an obsession primitives have with sexuality and virgin women..just look at Islam) and all of these gods were sacrificed by their own people, too.  And all three of them came before the story of Jesus.  It’s just he way it is.  I don’t have all the answers, but I have learned enough to firmly say that there is no god, neither of the Qur’an, Bible, Torah or Talmud or Tanakh.  We are just here—science is finding answers for that as fast as the three main religions are killing people in the name of the unknown, and one day we will all know and have a more definitive answer for our existence than we do now.  And when that day comes, much of the killing over these nonsensical beings will cease.  smile

Why do you think you will be judged at the end of your time?  Because some guy in the bible told you so.  And he said in Exodus chapter 20 that God told him to tell you “Thou shalt not kill”.  Then in chapter 21 he says “Kill your rebellious son”.  It’s right there in your Bible, Willis.  I don’t have to focus on the negative to know that whatever positive things are said in the Bible, it’s the bad things like killing that people are doing today because of it.  That’s the story and I don’t have to make it up…it’s right around you.  There is no good that can come from that book or any other claiming the Truth, when all of them are ultimate lies because they DO overtly contradict themselves. 

Nice chatting with you again.

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By Annie, March 28, 2007 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #60942 by willis on 3/28 at 8:36 am

Annie,

Hi agains Willis,

Why do you say that I blame God?  I don’t believe in any gods.  However, I DO blame the people who manifest gods through their religious zealotry caliming that “HE” made them or told them that Bush should be president all the while Osama’s God tells him to kill us infidels.  And it’s obvious they do take out the zealoutry because of gods.  I take it you have never read “Mein Kampf”?  Hitler, very much like Martin Luther, had a bad view of Jews and used the religion of Christianity to incense Germany against the Jews by reminding them that the Jews killed their “Christ”.  I can’t hardly blame Jesus for this, you’re right.  I really don’t believe he existed.  But even if he did exist as some Jewish rebel, he can’t be held accountable for what idiots have done because of his life. But I do, however, take issue with the very blood-thirsty Martin Luther who started the reformation that took the lives of women and children who had no say in his bloody cause.  And I take issue with the Hitlers of the word who use Jesus to cleanse out those he hates.  Think about it, Jesus is made in your image just as Allah is made in the image of the people who hate us “infidels”.  They see us that way, so of course Allah does.

You are right that there’s no proof of the Big Bang Theory—-but there’s way more evidence for it than there is for a “loving” bunch of gods who never show up and never stop people for doing the horrific things they do all for their sake.  And as far as apes evolving… —well, they didn’t evolve over night, Willis.  That’s not the theory or it would be called miracle and not evolution..lol.  So, for all you and I DO know, they ARE evolving right now.  In fact, my dad who is 80, showed me a picture of himself that was taken when he was a kid.  There is a squirrel in that picture that doesn’t look very much like the squirrels today 75 years later.  It’s obvious to me that animals have and are changing.  If you study paleantology at all, you will see it, too.  That’s why it’s not a BLIND faith the way that religion is.  It’s based on evidence and knowlege that we’re accumulating all the time.  You base your belief on 2000 year old men who said that god told them to tell you certain unseen stories by writing things down that contadict, on a piece of paper.  The Almighty God if Christianity was apparently not capable of associating with us himself—-and still doesn’t today.  As I stated before, there are over 20 thousand different denominations that all believe a bit differently but all claim to have the truth of the story that is the bible.  And there are more than 500 translations of that book.  Is it fair to assume that your god didn’t know what he was saying? Or is it more likely that men told the story as they were writing it and they continue to re-write it today.  Ask yourself which is the more realistic response. 
As far as the other “big bangs” that you mention, the universe is a vast place, Willis and a Big Bang may be going on right now.  And maybe all this is just the luck of the cosmos—or tough luck.  Depending on which way you look at it.  Schopenhauer said that “we’re here and it’s a mess but we do what we can because our existence is a fact whether gods are or not.” 

cont’d above

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By willis, March 28, 2007 at 9:36 am Link to this comment
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Annie,

There is no proof in the big bang or in evolution either. All these things come down to blind faith. Whether you believe in GOD or believe in something else, there is still no proof that either exist today. You don’t see apes turnning into humans today, so why would you belive that they once did before. What other big bangs are happenning today, have you ever saw a big bang or evolution happenning today? No you have not, you are using your blind faith to belive in one theory and to disbelieve another theory. Whether you believe in GOD or not, we all are basing are belief on what we have not seen and like you said this is blind faith.

I differ in your assement that GOD has caused all of this blood. GOD did not cause all of this blood, but humans who use GOD’s name in vain to falsely say they are doing things in the name of GOD but are actually doing bad things for power. Just as someone can falsely use GOD to kill they can also kill for other reasons. When 10 million slaves were killed when america gathered them from africa this was not in the name of religion, this was in the name of free labor (Money). When Hilter killed 6 million Jews he did not do it in the name of religion, he did it for power. Don’t blame GOD because of the evil things we humans do and how can you blame GOD when you yourself don’t believe in GOD. You take things from the bible and put them in a negative light and use this as truth, even though you don’t believe, but you take the positive things in the bible and say they must not be true because there is no proof. If you don’t belive the positive then why do you believe the negative? This is a contridiction.

GOD is not suppose to stop every bad thing that happens. He did not stop the bad things from happenning to his son Jesus, so why would he stop it from happenning to us who are lower than his son Jesus. If he allowed Jesus to suffer at the hands of evil men then why would you think we are more special than Jesus? I believe that we are here on earth going through a test. God can not just make everything and everybody full of love and no evil on earth, then there would be no point of us being here. Heaven is the place for everyone to be full of love and goodness. But we are here on earth to prove that we deserve to be in heaven so we have to be put to the test. How do we deal with evil people and good people. The character of a person is better challenged during hard times than during good times. Anyone can be good to someone who is good to them (even evil people are good to their other evil friends), but not everyone can be good to someone who is bad to them. God cannot tell you everything either or again there is no test.

If you have the belief that GOD’s power is beyond anything that you or I can imagine, then it is easy to belive that there is nothing that GOD can’t do. But he will do his will not yours or mine. So for GOD to make a peron out of dirt, water, stones, a bing bang, evolution or whatever he wants to is possible. So I belive that it is not the big bang, dirt or evolution that is the key but it is the power behind them and I call this power GOD.

GOD may interfer sometimes to save us from hell, but for the most part he lets us have free will to make our own choices, if God forces everyone to do things all of the time then what is the point, we might as well be robots. Some of us go from evil to good and from good to evil. We have to make that choice as a person, this is what we control and GOD allows us to control our goodness or evilness because we are the ones who are being put to the test. Because we control our goodness and evilness, this is why bad things happen to good people. We are humans and have been given a freedom of choice and along with this gift comes the responsibility to choose between good and evil, even under bad circumstances for we will be judged at the end of time.

Willis

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By Annie, March 28, 2007 at 4:54 am Link to this comment
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Hi agains Willis;

You stated: “I began to question why is it that Abraham had only one GOD and yet three different religions sprung from Abraham”....

You’re right.  But don’t forget that not only did three religions spring from Abraham’s ONE god but according to Christianity, there are three gods in one.  i.e. The Holy Trinity.

Also, “I define faith as believing in that which you have not seen.” 
Right again!  And things that you haven’t seen makes it blind faith.  Wouldn’t you rather have knowlege so that you don’t need to be confused about the three bloodiest religions that sprang up from Abrahm’s ONE god?  This “loving God” that has caused more death and destruction than any of the other 200 gods Hinduism boasts? Think holocaust, crusades, Iraqi war, Jihad, and Israel, Spanish Inquisition, reformation, etc.  At times like these, people are beheaded, impaled and otherwise tortured.  All for ONE “loving God”.  That is a contradiction.  If that god does indeed exist, he’s either helpless to stop all of this in His name, or he doesn’t care to.  OR he doesn’t exist.  It has to be one of the three. 

You speak of the big bang and say that you don’t want to believe that you came from nothing and that God is behind evolution.  Okay, but why do you want to believe you came from a lump of dirt?  And why do you think God said “let there be light”—and there was light yet needed dirt to make a man?

There’s more to the Big Bang theory then just *Bang* and here we are!  If you read about it, you’ll see that it makes more sense than a deity making eveything with a snap of the fingers except for man who he supposedly made from dust.

smile

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By willis, March 27, 2007 at 10:39 am Link to this comment
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Yuz Asaf,

I define faith as believing in that which you have not seen, but based on what you have been told, based on your own knowledge and experiences that you still chose to believe. My mother brought me to church and I also went to church with other family members. I was brought up as a baptist. Then as I got older I began to doubt religion although I still believed in GOD. I was brought up as a child to believe Jesus was a white man with blue eyes and blonde hair by seeing the pictures people showed of Jesus in church. But now as an adult I know that this can not be true because of the area he was borned & lived. After becoming more knowledgable about life and how people can misslead you, I then decided to seek wisdom for myself without just taking people for their words. This lead me to reading the bible myself, then I read the Tora and then I read the Koran. I began to see how Abraham is tied to all three of the major religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity). I began to question why is it that Abraham had only one GOD and yet three different religions sprung from Abraham, one following Moses, one following Mohammad and the other following Jesus. GOD has not changed so why is it that it is a need for three different religions that sprung from Abraham? They all are designed to bring you closer to GOD but I belive that love is higher than religion. Religion is just tool that used right brings about love and used wrong brings about division.

As an engineer I use my logic to know that the world is very complex and humans are very complex. So my logic and inner self can only believe that I came from something greater than I am, something my complex than I am, something wiser than I am, something my powerful than I am. Evolution does not explain how one animal turns into another animal but explains how the same animal gradually changes to adapt to the environment. I believe that GOD is the power behind evolution and without him there would be no evolution. The big bang theory says that there was a big bang and this is how the world was started, so if I believe this then I would be falsily believing that I came from nothing. I chose to have faith that I came from something and that something is more complicated than anything on earth and I call that GOD. I use the bible to help understand the way I should live my live and to gain understaning of life. I don’t have proof that the stories in the bible ever happened and they might have been written to serve as guides to people during that primitive time to help them understand what are the right things they should be doing.

I can not tell you how old the Universe is because science is not exact, we use to believe that the earth was flat. See it amazes me that people will believe everything an engineer or scientist writes in a book, but the book of the bible (which is older)is not believable to people. As an engineer myself, the one thing I know is that science is aways changing because there are more evidence to base the theories on. Then you have the promblem of the accuracy of the measuring equipment that the scientist and engineers use which has error involved with them.  Yet we belive in the data even though it might be wrong due to the error of measurement. They measure rocks in the earth to determine age of the earth but believe me I have more faith in GOD than I have in the accuracy of the measurement in the earth’s age. You will find that for every scientist or engineer that has one point of view based on scientific data there will be other scientist and engineer with differeing views. So once again it still comes down to faith.

Jesus said that all the commandments could be summed up into two commandments. Love your GOD with all of your mind body and soul and equally as important love your neighbor as you love yourself. This is what I believe in and this is what I have faith in, and this is what I strive to live by.

Willis

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By Annie, March 26, 2007 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment
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“Comment #60524 by annie on 3/26 at 11:56 am

Annie,

If you don’t mind expressing your view, I would like to know if you don’t believe in GOD, then what is your belief on how the earth, animals and humans were created?

And what proof do you have?

Willis”

How weird!  Are there two “Annies” here or is that you, Willis?  smile  Strangest thing.  Anyway, I have no proof of anything.  Not Gods nor monsters, angels, demons, etc…nor the Big Bang theory.  But I AM reading on it.  And I am finding that science—which has answered everything the “Gods” couldn’t, i.e. MEN healing other men, (medical science) and the scientific knowlege that the earth was round and not flat which the OT contradicts—and that the sun didn’t revolve around the earth but that it was the other way around which the OT also contradicts, has more answers.  For example, they now KNOW—even scientists who claim Christianity, that the earth is NOT 6k years old but at least 14 BILLION years old.  Of course, Christian scientists maintain that God didn’t create man until 6k years ago but they still cannot deny that the earth is much, much older than religions have always maintained.  Evidence is what it takes to convince a detective.  And I kind of consider myself a detective of religions winkIt’s as they say in the movies “something doesn’t add up with this ‘God’ story—I need a smoking gun”.  For one glaringly obvious fact, their are too many gods.  Taht’s like having too many suspects.
I am convinced that once superstitions are put aside, science will answer that “smoking gun” question.  But until then we are stymied as a people as far as gaining more knowlege.  Faith is a crutch that is no longer needed (assuming it ever was.  Yet people need this faith somehow and so the majority still embrace faith in one god or another.  Yet, science has answered everything else that the gods could not. 

Here’s a good link for you.  And I apologise if I gave it to you before.  But I think you will find it unoffensive yet clear in it’s evidence against the supernatural.  It even uses the Bible to back it up.  http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com 

I hope you enjoy it.  Let me know what you think.  smile

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By Yuz Asaf, March 26, 2007 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Willis, You just asked Annie to answer a question about evolution so I’ll give her a chance to do that if she wants. I have some questions for you though.  You believe in a god on the basis of faith. How do you define faith? Isn’t it true that someone told you there was a god when you were a child and you chose to believe that person? Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe that the Universe is less than 7000 years old as both the Catholic church and the Jewish religion once believed. Do you believe that Noah built an ark and the earth was totally flooded? I want to ask you these questions so I can understand your religious beliefs.

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By annie, March 26, 2007 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment
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Annie,

If you don’t mind expressing your view, I would like to know if you don’t believe in GOD, then what is your belief on how the earth, animals and humans were created?

And what proof do you have?

Willis

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By Annie, March 26, 2007 at 10:16 am Link to this comment
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RE: 60437 Willis

You’re right, Willis. I don’t have your faith.  I used to!  But not anymore.  Evidence of their existence is pointing the other way and for me, they are, by the very fact they stay hidden from their children,-unkind. The mean things said ARE in the bible Willis.  But I understand your faith to believe it’s okay for God to say what he did and for Jesus to do what he did.  I used to excuse it away as well.  *sigh*

You did say: “You judge GOD and Jesus according to man’s laws and feel that they should follow the same laws that we have.”

I don’t judge Jesus or God—I simply deny their existence.  I don’t believe in it.  But yes, if deities—-any deity, makes a Law for us as an example of righteousness, I DO expect them to follow that same law of righteousness.  smile

It really is good to talk to a level headed faithful who isn’t cruel.  Always a pleasure, Willis.  smile

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By willis, March 26, 2007 at 6:30 am Link to this comment
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Annie

I think you are right when you say we see good and evil differently. Just because my wisdom is not as great as GOD & Jesus and just because I don’t understand why some things in the bible occurred as they did, I still have faith in the reason GOD or Jesus did what they did. I have faith in them because they are the creators so they are the truth.

In order to save the chosen people of GOD, the sinners had to die. Back in those days it was about cultivating the chosen people and showing them and guiding them in the right dirrection for GOD purposes.

You judge GOD and Jesus according to man’s laws and feel that they should follow the same laws that we have. But why should they follow these laws when they are the law. Whatever they do they are justified in their actions. GOD is the kingom, the Power and the Glory. It is because you don’t believe in him is why you see his actions are wrong. Remeber GOD said his will will be done not our will.

When you raise you children and you tell them not to have sex, to drink alcohol, or not to stick their finger in a socket, or not to drive because they are not old enough and so on and so on. You can do things that your kids can not do. And out of love you discipline your children, just as GOD disciplines us (His children). This discipline help the children to understand and this discipline in love. GOD the father is the one with all of the wisdom and guides us. He has put love in our heart and we know wrong for right. Those who are evil and sinners will eventually suffer for their evil ways. Just because you see GOD or Jesus being angry, saying or doing mean things (as you say) to sinners, you say they are not turnning the other cheek. GOD and Jesus turns the other cheek to those who seek them and follow the rightous path. They did not say they will turn the other cheek to those of us who continue to dwell in evil doings. The same GOd that said turn the other cheek said an eye for an eye. The problem is understanding what is meant by both. Just as if I spank my child for sticking a fork in a socket, that child may not understand why his father spanked him, but it was to save the child’s life. Sometimes a child has to grow up to understand their father and this is the same with religion. You have people they read the stories of the bible and take word for word but yet may not understand it or the prime dirrective - which is love. If you take the bible and read it you must read it from the standpoint of GOd loves us and the acts in the bible were out of love for us. We may not agree with the acts or like that some of them occurred, but we still must have faith that it was out of love and protection of those who deserved protection. Not everyone deserves the protection of GOD. Not everyone will get the Love of GOD. Some of us will burn in hell- this is the eye for an eye part and why Jesus was angry (as you say) with the sinners in the temple who were selling items. Jesus knew they they were sinners and would not listen to him and therefore he will not be able to save them for this burnning fire in hell.  The turn the other cheek part comes from, if you are a sinner and you repent then although you were doing evil things, GOD and Jesus will forgive you and you can be saved. So sinners have an opportunity to be saved.

If you beleive that GOD created life and the world then you would say that he is justified in all that he does.

If you do not believe in GOD then you would not believe in his right to do his will.

So basically it all boils down to faith.
This is actually where we differ.

Nice chatting with you Annie. It is always a pleasure to discuss are differeing views.

Take care.

Willis

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By Annie, March 21, 2007 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment
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hi annie

Hi Willis!

In John 2:14 it says:

“In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. so he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he sid, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!”

Why didn’t the Son of God just say “be gone” and the animals would scatter?  I think the point is moot unless it’s about the whip and the way he surely must have “drove the animals out” by hitting them.  It’s most certainly clear that he was angry as all get out!  Also, if Christ came to set an example as Christian apologists say he did; what kind of example is it to be a “do as I say, not as I do” kind of God?  Where is the point in this story if it wasn’t to show that Jesus had a graven image, which is against the ten commandments, and that image was that of a temple?  Obviously it was or he wouldn’t have gotten so angry.  What do you make of this story?

And yes, poor Judas who was betrayed by Jesus long before he betrayed Jesus.  The prophecy was that one of the disciples would betray Jesus as God would allow Satan to enter him.  Judas was picked at random and the bible says that “Satan entered Judas and Judas went and betrayed Jesus”.  That begs the question of not only what kind of god was Jesus, but what kind of friend????  No wonder Judas went out and disemboweled himself.  All this God did to him after he had followed Jesus around for three years of his life after giving up his home for him. 

I don’t see god as good the way you do.  That’s where we differ.  I see statements like this one in the bible: “Moses was enraged with the commanders of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come back from this military expedition. He said, “Why have you spared the life of all the women? There were the very ones who, on Balaam’s advice, perverted the sons of Israel and made them renounce Yahweh in the affair at Peor: hence the plague which struck the community of Israel. So kill all the male children. Kill also all the women who have slept with a man. Spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves.” (From Numbers 31: 13-19, The Jerusalem Bible.)——and I want to puke for the thought that women or men today would still believe in a god that has absolutely nothing to say for today and none of his stories have an inkling to do with modern society.  It really is all primitive stuff meant for people of the desert 2000 years ago.

Good to see you, Willis.  smile

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By willis, March 20, 2007 at 8:46 am Link to this comment
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hi annie

In John 2:14 it says:

“In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. so he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he sid, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!” His disciples remebered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do this?”

In reading this passage I see know where that it states that Jesus hit any animal or person with a whip. It is more likely to believe that he drove them out by scaring them with the whip just like animal trainers do with lions.

But once again, you can not hold GOD or Jesus to the same standard and rules that they hold us to. They make the rules for us to follow so that we will be good enough for them to except us. GOD is already good and Jesus is a follower of GOD’s goodness. Just because Jesus said things to people who were obviously sinners and doing evil things does not make Jesus a bad person. Jesus and GOD do not have to turn the other cheek. Infact at the end of time those who remain evil will actually suffer in a burnning fire of hell, according to the bible. So you see Turnning the other check is for us humans becuase we are the sinners and the ones who must prove our worthiness to come to GOD. Jesus and GOD are already worthy and they will be the Judge and therefore there job is not to turn the other cheek but to give their approval of us humans who turned the other cheek. The bible is not words for Jesus and GOD to follow but words to help us get closer to them. GOD made rules for us to follow, not the other way around.

As far as Mel Gibson is concern, yes he did the movie for money, but that is not my point.
My point is Jesus was bretrayed by Judas with 30 silver coins. So Jesus was betrayed with money.
It was theis envy of the high preist and the power that he was losing to Jesus that made them murder Jesus. As far as the beating goes I am sure there were many slaves in the USA that got beat just as bad and survived. Anyone being nail to a cross like he was is definitely a lot of suffering whether you belive it was as bad in the Passion of Christ or not, there is no misbelieve that he suffered and died a criminal’s death although he did no wrong.

What evil things did Jesus do to deserve the Death that he got? Jesus knew the manner in which he would die. If you knew in advance what your killers were going to do to you and that there were many people who supported and agreed with killing you even if you do nothing wrong, wouldn’t you think it would be ok to talk bad about these evil people. Anyone who agrees with the death of an innocent man and seeks the death of that innocent man, deserves what they get. Remeber Jesus knew the heart of the evil man, so when he spoke about them it was becuase he knew their evil thoughts and the evil things they would do to him. I thin knowing this, Jesus is justified in his actions and words. After all he is supposed to be the judge and communicator of the truth from GOD. So he cannot be wrong, only we can be wrong.

As far as casting evil spirits away into hogs and hogs going over a cliff. If the evil spirit makes the hogs go over the cliff then the evil spirits are to blame for this act. Humans are more important than animals dont you think. What about all of the meat that we eat. We have to kill animals to get it. Is this wrong for us to do.
once again we can not set up man’s laws and place these same laws on GOD & Jesus. GOD & Jesus are beyond our manly laws of what is right and what is wrong. God & Jesus is the law so whatever they do cannot be wrong, because they are the law.

willis

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By Annie, March 19, 2007 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #59356 by willis on 3/19 at 9:18 am

“Whether you believe in Jesus or not, If you clearly read about his life in the bible you should come to the conclusion that he was a loving person. He healed the sick, Feed the hungry, brought people back from the dead, gave sight to the blind, cast away evil spirits…”

Well, he was written that way in a sense.  But if you read it without prejudice, he wasn’t that nice.  He did send evil spirits out of a man and sent them into innocent swine who then drove themselves into the ocean and drowned. Couldn’t the “Almighty” have spared innocent animals that he supposedly created and just do away with the evil spirits?  Jesus didn’t even have common courtesy for animals.  It was the animals that he beat outside of the temple just because men were selling stuff there.  If it was wrong and he didn’t like it, why didn’t he turn the other cheek? (so-to speak)  That’s what he preached that you should do.  Or at the very MOST why didn’t he just tell them and then whatever sass they had for him, he could just turn the other cheek.  But no, there was no warning—he just beat their livestock (again with no regard to living, innocent creatures) and he flipped their livelihood over spilling out the contents.  This smacks of human anger and not the righteous correction of any deity. 

Also, remember that there is money in blood.  Now, as a neo-traditional Catholic, Mel Gibson knows this all too well.  He just attempted another go at it with “Apocolypto” which also made him a coin or twelve.  But having put 30 million dollars into “The Passion of the Christ”, don’t you think he knew what he was doing?  He’s been in Hollyweird a LONG time.  And he did get back 140 million dollars to pocket—-that’s how much the public loves blood.  And to me that’s not the worst part.  The worst part was the over-exaggeration of what a man could take.  No man could take all of that without passing out.  Mel Gibson out-did himself.  He shows Christ being beaten to a pulp under circumstances that a skinny man like that would have been dead before he made it to the “cross”.  It was beautiful as far as costumes, music, etc.  But the rest—-think about it…it was bull!  He added his own version to the bible.  So, we have yet again, another version.  And why?  Because Mel Gibson LOVES money and is a drunk, a philander, adulterer and all around GUILTY man by his own admission.  Guilt can buy you money with that story. And I am sure as an ex-Catholic, he feels it bought him out of that sinful life and out of purgatory.

On and on it goes. 

Even the Jews will tell you that Jesus was made up to tick them off.

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By willis, March 19, 2007 at 10:18 am Link to this comment
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Annie Wrote:

Jesus took a cat-o-nine tails and whipped and beat the moneychangers, turning over their tables which were their lively-hood and all because they were in front of a religious building.  And in Luke (which historically was written before Matthew)- Jesus tells his disciples in chapter 6:26 to “Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you.  If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak also”...etc, But when Jesus’ enemies came to him, what did he do?  Matthew chapter 23 tells us that he called them hissing names:  “you brood of vipers full of dead men’s bones.  How will you escape the tortures of hell? 

HI Annie,

I just saw the passion of christ this weekend for the first time. I saw how Jesus was whipped and beaten and nailed to the cross. Jesus knew in advance that these same people would be responsible for his torture and death, so for Jesus to talk bad about them is exactly what they deserve. Not everone will be saved. GOD and Jesus will have the last say to who is forgiven and who will not be forgiven. It is GOD and Jesus that have the authority to erase ones sin. No one can hold GOD and Jesus (the maker) to the same standard as the one who is made (us). They know peoples heart and they know who is wick people. They know that their wicked heart wont change. You and I might not know but GOD and Jesus does know and this is why they can condem and say bad things about others and not forgive them because they are the ones with the Kingdom, Power, and Glory, not us. Just like my boss at work can do things that I can not do because he is the boss.
We belong to GOD and Jesus, it is not the other way around. They chose who they will except and who they won’t except. It is their Judgement not yours or mine. Who are you or I to Judge what is right. We can not make it rain or the sun come out. The standard and rules of the bible is not for GOD or Jesus, their wisdom and understand can not be contained in a book. The world is not big enough to contain GOD and his wisdom and we are not wise enough to understand what he understands.
This is why there are so many ways that the bible preaches love so that different people will have many opportunities to understand love in different ways. Different strokes for different folks.

There is no place where I read where Jesus striked the money changers. He turned over their tables and whipped their good they were selling but did not beat them. This is another example of how money is the root of all evil and further my point about GOD & Jesus hate for what money does to people. They were so eager to make money that they were disrespecting the temple.

Whether you believe in Jesus or not, If you clearly read about his life in the bible you should come to the conclusion that he was a loving person. He healed the sick, Feed the hungry, brought people back from the dead, gave sight to the blind, cast away evil spirits, healed leporus people, and taught us to love our neighbors. This sounds like a very loving person to me. If he said bad words to sinners, this is ok because his is the judge of the evil as well as the good people. So if he said bad things about evil people then they must have deserve it, because his judgement is from the most high and is therefore the truth and only the truth and as Just as Justice can be because he will be the Judge in the End.

willis

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By Annie, March 16, 2007 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment
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“Comment #58831 by willis on 3/15 at 1:43 pm

Comment #58415 by John Hanks on 3/13 at 4:17 pm

Basically, in many ways Jesus was a jerk.  He hated blockheads and phonies.  Since the whole human race is nothing but a bunch of blockheads and phonies, that puts everyone in a bind, especially when it comes to raptures.”

Hello again, Willis.  smile

I sure wish other Christians were more like you.  I know you won’t believe it, but you’re nicer than Christ was.  It’s true.  What you said to John Hanks—well, Jesus took a cat-o-nine tails and whipped and beat the moneychangers, turning over their tables which were their lively-hood and all because they were in front of a religious building.  And in Luke (which historically was written before Matthew)- Jesus tells his disciples in chapter 6:26 to “Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you.  If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak also”...etc,  But when Jesus’ enemies came to him, what did he do?  Matthew chapter 23 tells us that he called them hissing names:  “you brood of vipers full of dead men’s bones.  How will you escape the tortures of hell?  You clean the outside of the cup and dish but the inside is filled with greed and indulgences!”  And he was pissed off if you’re reading it in context.  So on one hand, you have him telling everyone to be nice and all but he, himself, was not in anyway nice to his enemies And the pharisees, who in acutuality were only asking questions that any Jewish leader SHOULD ask of a man who says he’s the Son of God, were not harming him.  But Jesus was clearly a hipocrit.  He also never prayed for his enemies.  Never does it tell us that he dropped to his knees to pray for these people who he thought were vipers.  In the garden of Gethsamane, he prayed for his FRIENDS and the people who would come to believe on him in the future.  And when he was done praying, the pharisees came with Judas into the garden to hand him over to the Sanhedrin.  What did Jesus say?  He said, “there’s my betrayer!”  As he pointed Judas out.  There was no forgiveness there and that was right after he prayed for God to “pass this cup from ME”.  He was a do as I say not as I do kind of deity. 

I know that in churches they teach the love of Jesus and he does appear to be the kinder face of the God of the OT.  But if you look closer, he was not a good enough guy to be a deity.  He was just a man written into the pages of time.

I wish it were as you say, Willis.  And I wish he were as kind as you’ve been.  But he wasn’t. It’s written on those pages.

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By willis, March 15, 2007 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #58415 by John Hanks on 3/13 at 4:17 pm

Basically, in many ways Jesus was a jerk.  He hated blockheads and phonies.  Since the whole human race is nothing but a bunch of blockheads and phonies, that puts everyone in a bind, especially when it comes to raptures.

Jesus’ sayings speak to the worst aspects of the lower middle class mind.  He offers false hope, murderous intolerance, and mindless sentimentality.”

John,

You never heard of Jesus hitting anyone, killing anyone, he forgave many people for their sins and healed people.

You have never read anything in the bible where Jesus preached hate. Jesus was loving and only preached that man turn away from there sins and follow God.

He called attention to the fake preachers of the time because they taught what people should do but did not follow the same advice. His power to understand people was greater than man and thus his wisdom was greater. so he knew what people had in their hearts and knew the wicked things they thought. In a lot of what you taught, he responded to what others were thinking bad thoughts about him.

Hi Annie,

I have been very busy so I have’nt commented in a while. hope you are doing well.

Heaven is expected to be better than all of the earth and should have all of the riches. But as Jesus said it would be harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Jesus came and lived amongst the poor, not the rich.
Rich people follow the GOD of Money.

God entices people with love and not with money. There will be no such thing as money in heaven. There will be goodness, Joy, Happiness and peace.
Understand that GOD allowed his only begotten son to come down to earth and suffer at the hands of man. Why would we think that GOD would prevent our suffering. It is about GOD’s Will and not ours. The earth has evil and good and it is up to us to chose.

My question is how could anyone not believe in GOD? I understand that people can have a problem with intepretion of religion because it is all about how you interpret things. If you take a negative approach you interpretion will be different than if you took a positive approach.

I choose to believe and have faith that I came from something that was way more intelligent than me. It is hard for me to believe that I came from nothing or a big bang of nothing. When you see a kid being born and coming out of the mother, I say that is GOD’s biggest mirricle that happens every day. How can another human come from another human, if this is not by Divine Nature (GOD). Where did the first human come from? GOD is the only explaination I can see that makes sense to me. He is more intelligent and I choose to believe that I came from something more intelligent than less intelligent.

willis

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By Annie, March 14, 2007 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment
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“Comment #58415 by John Hanks on 3/13 at 4:17 pm

Basically, in many ways Jesus was a jerk.  He hated blockheads and phonies.  Since the whole human race is nothing but a bunch of blockheads and phonies, that puts everyone in a bind, especially when it comes to raptures.

Jesus’ sayings speak to the worst aspects of the lower middle class mind.  He offers false hope, murderous intolerance, and mindless sentimentality.”

For the most part, John, and with very few exceptions; all you need to do is look around at Jesus’ so-called disciples today to see what he instilled into the minds of men—if he existed.  It very well could have been a political plot to over throw the Jews who were waiting for the Messiah since no one named Jesus has ever been heard in history (the Dead Sea Scrolls don’t say anything about this character)and there is NO RECORD of King Herod killing firstborn sons in Jerusalem 2000 years ago or otherwise. At any rate, Christians and the religious in general are very violent minded and speak with forked tongues.  wink

Good post!

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By Annie, March 13, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #58369 by willis on 3/13 at 11:48 am

Hi Willis!  I haven’t seen you for awhile.  smile

Psst…the bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.  This word love is a Hebrew and Greek word for “idolize”.  Otherwise, I would have to remind you that the God of the bible entices people into heaven using streets of gold and onyx and pealy gates, etc.  Rev. 21 is loaded with riches.  God seems to be the biggest fan of money and riches in all the bible!  smile

Nice to see you again.

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By John Hanks, March 13, 2007 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment
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Basically, in many ways Jesus was a jerk.  He hated blockheads and phonies.  Since the whole human race is nothing but a bunch of blockheads and phonies, that puts everyone in a bind, especially when it comes to raptures.

Jesus’ sayings speak to the worst aspects of the lower middle class mind.  He offers false hope, murderous intolerance, and mindless sentimentality.

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By willis, March 13, 2007 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment
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The bible preaches that the root of all evil is money. The older I get and the more I experience in life, the more I understand the meaning of this saying. If you look at the begining of time history shows that you have two groups. The “haves” and the “have nots”. The “haves” always have money and power. The “have nots” do not have money or power. Those with money and power will use their influence to make things go their way and those without money and power are controlled by those with money and power.
America and other industrialized nations were built on colonization of other countries. Since practice is no longer politically correct the new process is to controll other countries with money (economic sanctions) or through power (military force). Everyone hids behind some moral purpose of why they use force to control others but underneath this lie you will always find money & power. In the middle east you have one group of muslims fighting against each other. So the area is not important because power strugles in people remain the same no matter what religion you have or even if you do not have a religion. This is the selfishness of man and survivile of the fittest thought process. Even if Isreal gave the palestine people their land back you would still have fighting amongst them. Once you kill a person’s family and they kill yours you make an enemy for life. This is why there will always be a conflict.

Willis

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By Roy Oetting, March 12, 2007 at 6:36 am Link to this comment
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Richard, you are missing the point of this debate. We were invited to comment on Jesus the man or the myth. At least several of us have expressed the fact that he may not have even existed.  I may not mind some teenage girl praying to Jesus at a social event that is not a religious event. The truth is I’m insulted by the matter of fact attitude that Christians can display. However my biggest problem with religion that I have is the terrible loss of life that we have seen in history but most importantly the loss of life we are witnessing every day. What has to happen before the world sees how absurd this war in the middle east is? How many more people are going to have to die? That dumb butt Robertson has predicted the loss of many American lives this coming September. Some government official probably leaked a probability study and so Robertson is going to try to profit from it. During WWII we weren’t just fighting Japan but we were fighting Japan and their living god the emperor. During WWII we weren’t just fighting Germany we were fighting Germany and their Christian god. Today Israel has caused this terrible war because their god gave them that land and you know what? They aren’t going to be happy until they rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. The United States has wrongly helped Israel for over 40 years. The United States leaders have cast a blind eye on the middle east in hopes that Israel will succeed but thousands of Americans have paid the ultimate cost. When we put these gods in a box marked myth, man will, I am confident of it, take care of the human species as best he can.  I hope it isn’t to late.

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By Annie, March 11, 2007 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #57962 by Richard on 3/11 at 11:03 am

This never ending diatribe is comical at best. 

Richard, I feel it’s only fair for me to remind you to take a look at the dates here.  This “never ending diatribe” ended almost a month ago.  wink

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By Richard, March 11, 2007 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment
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This never ending diatribe is comical at best.  Most of you are exhibiting hatred of a person’s option to think, as inane as most of the thoughts are, rather than propagating the peaceful thoughts of “Jesus”, whomever that may be or have been.
Why can’t you just lead your life according to some principle and abandon the missionary work and the “gotcha” game. Whether or not you believe in the divinity of Jesus, or whether you think he even existed, there are some nominally helpful ideas contained in the words issued in his name.  All of your confrontational ideas fly in the face of the main objective:  that is to help us get through this miserable life on a more comfortable journey.

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By Annie, February 20, 2007 at 11:09 am Link to this comment
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Comment #54383 by Yuz Asaf on 2/19 at 12:27 pm

Yes and you also have your fundamentalist Christians who only think they know what they’re talking about but since they don’t even know their own bible [and this includes most in America] they call you names as their only rebuttal for the fact that YOU may know their bible and can debunk every page.  I have been a “whipping post” for their insults more than once.

Also, if you bring up what John says at the beginning of Revelation, people will always find an out.  I.e.  “He was speaking in an allegory because the Romans were after him to kill him..”  “He was given the revelation in symbolic form…etc.”—As if a true deity would give second hand revelation to someone to give to the rest of us who never even knew this crack pipe smoker 1900 years ago.

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By Yuz Asaf, February 19, 2007 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
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Wayne to go one step further, there isn’t any proof he existed at all.
  Christians - What kind of Christians are there in the US. You have the fundamentalists who believe every word of the Bible. You have your average Joe and Jane who don’t know anything about the Bible but given the chance they’ll tell you they are Christians and that “God is Love!”. You have your really smart Christians who really don’t believe but they are smart enough to know it is best not to rock the boat. You have your scary Christians who carry out what God tells them to do. You also have that Christian who insists that if we didn’t believe in a god then the world would be in chaos. Sixty six people died today because of religious differences. I read that an hour or so ago, the number is probably higher by now.
  I was just reminded that someone suggested that Revelation is some kind of symbolic mumbo jumbo when in the first two lines John, the writer, states that this is what he witnessed and not to call him a liar. He also says that it will happen soon. I don’t know what soon means to you, but to me soon means it’s going to happen in the next week or two. I wonder what kind of dope John was doing? John wrote that 1900 years ago.
  I would like to ask a Christian or Jew who believes that dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago and how you can believe in the Bible at the same time.

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By Annie, February 19, 2007 at 6:43 am Link to this comment
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Comment #54256 by Jennifer on 2/18 at 11:46 am

Annie:

“Do you consider being a lesbian an insult ?”

Were you trying to insult me, Jen?  That would tell just who has the phobia. smile

“Do I note some religious sexual phobia from you ?

No, But I denote some religious stupidity from you.

“I just made a logical observation”.

Saying that Missy and I are lesbians is logical???  You’re just not smart enough for me to continue with you.  Glad to see you’re going.


RE: #54187 Tony

Ok, Tony.  And I have considered that.  However, if there is a Creator who has not revealed himself through whatever means, why hasn’t he?  And what would be the point in me worshiping a deity who would allow men to get his “divine word” incorrectly translated?

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By Annie, February 19, 2007 at 6:22 am Link to this comment
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RE: #54271 George

No, George.  According to statistics, atheists are smarter and deeper thinkers than theists.  Of course, that’s only one measurement of intelligence and one could argue that…hell!  I would even argue that.  I know very intelligent theists.  The problem is that they’re WILLFULLY stupid in regard to myths that they think will save their souls, yet they cannot define what a soul even is.

George, if I may, you don’t bring anything new to the table as a theist.  And I disagree that we will “know when our time comes”.  I believe you will know nothing just as you knew nothing before you were born.  In fact, if you’re a bible believer, then just read it page for page and you will find that the bible says exactly THAT about the dead—-they have no memory nor thought for what was, etc.

Also, you are wrong about my having a “belief” in no god.  By the very nature of the statement it is a disbelief, is it not?

RE# 54308

Wayne, well put.  It’s like the old saying..“Jesus died and went to heaven after three days…big deal.  He had a really bad weekend for your sins.”  smile

Unless you are of the Islamic persuasion.  In that case, Jesus was swept away up into the heavens by Allah. 

I smell politics.  wink

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By Wayne, February 18, 2007 at 11:52 pm Link to this comment
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All we know about Jesus is that he lived and he died. All else is conjecture, hearsay and embellishment. This article does not even give the source for the “historical record” that supposedly proves Jesus was crucified by the Roman Empire. The huge appeal of Jesus as the Christ (as manufactured over the centuries) is that he offers eternal life for simply believing he is the Son of God. Jesus Christ is the King of the Used Car Salesmen. Eternal life for such a small investment is a deal that cannot be turned down. It is the best deal ever offered by any religious figure, and ignoramuses in the right wing want to ferret out and prosecute all disbelievers.

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By George, February 18, 2007 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment
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Missy & Annie:

Came over from the Atheist forum.
See you are very active there.
It seems to be the two of you feel a
need to preach your belief.
You will say “no it is not a belief”, but it is.
Belief is just something you think is true.
The religious believe in God and you don’t.
Look Annie, religious people are just as smart as Atheists.
This debate has gone on for thousands of years. You do not bring anything new to the table.
Bottom line, we will all find out the truth when our time comes.

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By Jennifer, February 18, 2007 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment
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Annie:

Do you consider being a lesbian an insult ?
Do I note some religious sexual phobia from you ?
I just made a logical observation.
You do not deny it and therefore I must be right.
It is OK if you are a lesbian. As long as you truly love one another.
You are a phony Annie.
See you around.

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By Tony, February 17, 2007 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment
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To Annie:

Your disbelief in a God center around how you believe a God should be and not what God may “actually” be. Since God does not meet your expectations you deny his/her existence.
You are actually the one “making God in your own image”.
I do agree that religions are a human invention, and as you do, “make God in their image”.
Annie, your perception of God is from a human finite point of view. That point of view may be flawed since you have limited knowledge of this existence.
So what you see as a cruel or uncaring God, may in achieving the “big picture”, turn out to be just the opposite.
It is ignorant to believe that all that exists has no purpose and that all we do,good or bad, makes no difference and has no meaning in the long run.
To believe that we are accidents of nature with no purpose is ridiculus. It is even more foolish to believe that all that is has no intelligent design.
There is a “cause” and “effect” to all things. Nothing in the material world “just is”.
The universe, or existence, cannot be eternal and must have a beginning and end. All things in “material” form must be created.
There is an opposite to everything in material existence,negative & positive, light & darkness, hot & cold, big & small, young & old, Sick & healthy, wet & dry, life & death, good & evil,etc.
Therefore there must also be existence and non-existence or matter and anti-matter.
Yes, there can indeed be a God or Creator that is not in the form you believe or acts as you think he/she should.
One scientific truth does exist, that “order” does not come from chaos without “cause”.
That cause can indeed be that force we call God.
I guess we will never know until we get there.

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By Jennifer, February 17, 2007 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment
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To Annie and your Partner:
But what I say about you is true and what you say about me is false.
So that is the story girls.
Your hate of religion comes from its restrictions on your life styles.
So do as you please while you still can.
In the end your folly will be made known to you.
There is a God no matter how much you deny it.

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By Missy, February 16, 2007 at 11:46 am Link to this comment
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Comment #53891 by Jennifer on 2/15 at 8:09 pm

Annie & Missy:

You sound like identical twins. Or maybe you are some lesbians who have nothing better to do but attack religion.

We sound like identical twins….now that’s an intelligent observation…based on…let me guess…irrational thinking?  Have you been watching too much Jerry Springer, Jennifer?
You know nothing about Annie or me and you assume we’re Lesbians?  No wonder you believe in God…you’r not rational and you seem to have a distorted thinking problem.

Since you insult me solely on the basis that I don’t share your religous beliefs, I’ll get down to your level and show you what it’s like.

Would it be fair to say that you are Lawrence’s niece but he’s also your father too?  Are you from a rural area and live in a travel trailor?  Just trying to think and insult like you insulted me, Jennifer.  It’s not very nice is it?  And certainly not very Christian like of you to do so. 
 
The two of you are a joke. Your feelings need to be hurt.


What would Jesus do,Jennifer?


You are both fools who need to be brought back to your senses.

What do you propose? A double baptizm?


I have read all your statements and see your arrogant and ignorant thinkings.


I’m sorry you think I’m arrogant and ignorant based on our difference in religion.  I’m sorry you don’t have tolerance for other peoples opinion.  But Jennifer….you’re going to have to get used to it.  We’re in the 21st century, and you have to learn tolerance of others, and learn about freedom of speech.  So grow up and get over it and try to control your defensiveness! 

People like you need to be shown the fools you are.

And how do you propose to do so?  As for you, this post of yours is proof of your foolish character and your ignorance for all the world to see.

This so you cannot corrupt others.

Corrupt others?  Your insane. Besides, we all know that has always been the Christian’s job…right? 

So bring it on you pathetic two ! Bring what on?  Are you challenging us to a debate? 

Annie….lol…I think she may want to get physical with us. lol…sigh…and she talks of pathetic?  Unreal…I think we’ve just gotten a a raw taste of the wrath of a delusional, intolerant Christian.

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By Missy, February 16, 2007 at 11:07 am Link to this comment
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Comment #53889 by Lawrence on 2/15 at 7:56 pm

Annie & Missy:

Got your blood boiling. Now you know how it feels to be on the defensive.

Defensive…hmmm…that would be you.  I’m more interested in you projecting YOUR anger onto me.  As I see it, Lawrence, YOU are the one who is defensive.  The reason? Because I’m a threat to your beliefs.  It creates anger and denial within you when someone threatens your percievd reward of an afterlife.  Are we a direct threat to you?  No.  Nevertheless, you insult us and you want to take your rage out on us by insulting remarks because you have no tolerance for others.  My guess is that you’re a fundalmental, evangelical, pious, close-minded Christian. There Lawrence.  Now you can say I’ve insulted you.  Close-minded, intolerant, and ingnorant.  Just adjectives.

What goes around comes around.

Childish ignorance….

Repent your arrogance before it is too late.
The two of you are hateful people who have lost their way and try to corrupt others.

Repent?  To whom?  Repent your ignorance you delusional nut job.

Misery loves company and I am sure you will enjoy each others company in your own self made eternal hell.

Another loving Christian doing god’s work by wishing us to burn in hell. Are you insane?  Did you sign a non-use affadavit in regard to utilizing your brain?  Think about what you’re saying to us…

Repent your evil hearts and God will show you salvation.

Repent your own evil heart to your imaginary friend you delusional fruit cake.  Get an education and quit worshipping the works of sheep herders.  Sorry, but there is no god.  Unfortunately for you your brain just hasn’t evolved and you’ve sat in the pew to long in a trance without asking questions.

Laugh now girls and cry later !

LOL…You may pity my imaginary soul, but I pity your cognition. 

Obviously it isn’t true.  Ignorance isn’t bliss, because you’re on miserable S*B!

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By Annie, February 16, 2007 at 10:15 am Link to this comment
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Missy—-here we go again…lol wink The god-fearing, Jesus loving Christians are here to tell us “like it realllllly is”...lol

Jennifer apparently knows us through the “holy spirit of cyberworld” and has dubbed us lesbians, fools, arrogant and ignorant as well as pathetic.

Good Jen [since the computer gods told me to go ahead and be friendly with you]. btw, did you know the word “lesbian” is not in the bible, koran OR the torah?  That’s kind of a big word for you. wink  What is it that you would like us to “bring on”?  Are you sure your mom and dad know you’re playing on the computer?

Lawrence has shown us lovingly and in typical Christian fashion that he can’t wait for us to burn in the hell that he created in his mind.

Lawrence, quit whining like a fundamentalist girl.

Missy, where have we ever heard THIS rhetoric and palaver before?  smile  Why, it’s all so brand new and original! *gasp* lol   wink

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By Annie, February 16, 2007 at 6:22 am Link to this comment
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Comment #53815 by Missy on 2/15 at 12:59 pm

Annie

Sit down, shut-up, listen, and don’t ask questions.  Do you think a few more years of that would have made you a mindless, irrational, follower too? (lol)

Belief without rationality leads to….


Christ on a bike, Missy!  You sound just like some of the nuns I remember…except for that last line. wink

“belief without rationality leads to retardation of the emotions.”  <-believe me.  wink [i.e. ‘santy claus is bringing me toys, and the easter bunny is brining me a basket and the tooth fairy is bringing me money and when I die I get to go to heaven—this beautiful place filled with god’s love….lol—-oh goody!]

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By Jennifer, February 15, 2007 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment
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Annie & Missy:

You sound like identical twins. Or maybe you are some lesbians who have nothing better to do but attack religion.
The two of you are a joke. Your feelings need to be hurt. You are both fools who need to be brought back to your senses.
I have read all your statements and see your arrogant and ignorant thinkings.
People like you need to be shown the fools you are.
This so you cannot corrupt others.
So bring it on you pathetic two !

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By Lawrence, February 15, 2007 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment
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Annie & Missy:

Got your blood boiling. Now you know how it feels to be on the defensive.
What goes around comes around.
Repent your arrogance before it is too late.
The two of you are hateful people who have lost their way and try to corrupt others.
Misery loves company and I am sure you will enjoy each others company in your own self made eternal hell.
Repent your evil hearts and God will show you salvation.
Laugh now girls and cry later !

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By Missy, February 15, 2007 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment
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Annie

Sit down, shut-up, listen, and don’t ask questions.  Do you think a few more years of that would have made you a mindless, irrational, follower too? (lol)


Belief without rationality leads to….

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By Missy, February 15, 2007 at 8:06 am Link to this comment
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Comment #53639 by Lawrence on 2/14 at 4:34 pm

To Willis:

Just ignore them, they are but a few and really have nothing much to say.


How childish is it of you to make this remark? (I can visualize an eight year old whispering this in another child’s ear.)  In other words you"re telling Willis to CLOSE his mind?

Annie & Missy are pathetic people. They have nothing better to do but put down people who don’t agree with them.

Calling us pathetic is not putting people down?  LOL I think you’re mistaken Mr. Lawrence…we doon’t put them down we have intelligent ADULT conversations…whether they agree with us or not.
They are both ignorant and contribute nothing to the spiritual part of being human.

Ignorant is sometimes the product of when one is close-minded and then try to spread ignorance by telling others to close their eyes and cover their ears. I’m sure others are intelligent enough to have tolerance for difference.

Their beings are as empty as their atheistic belief.

Well for a Christian, you do seem to be quite the bitter, empty person.  Perhaps we Athiest can cheer you up with our optimism and zest for living life to the fullest!  Don’t be so uptight, Lawrence, we care about you despite your Christian view of us!

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By Annie, February 14, 2007 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53639 by Lawrence on 2/14 at 4:34 pm

“To Willis:
I see the Atheists have migrated from their forum and have come to spread their belief here.
Just ignore them, they are but a few and really have nothing much to say.
Annie & Missy are pathetic people. They have nothing better to do but put down people who don’t agree with them.
They are both ignorant and contribute nothing to the spiritual part of being human.
Their beings are as empty as their atheistic belief”


I see you have made accusations against myself and Missy without knowing us.  And you also say that we’ve migrated here as if you own the place.  That, sir, is typically a religious ploy to think you “own” the world to such an extent as to try and take our speech freedoms from us.  I know your kind.  I used to be one—sooo pious, so UNsure of myself that in my fained “humility” and great “wisdom” I was pious all the more. 

So first, I would like you to show me ONE POST—-just ONE where I put anyone down, called them a name or elsewise.  Search and search to be right—you won’t find it.  It’s not my thing. So again, you’ve shown the colours of religion with false judgement.  And, ironically, it’s the very thing religion teaches against. 

Secondly, if you ask Willis, who I like very much, to just ignore us, then why don’t you?

Thirdly and lastly, we are atheists which is just a word for NON believers—-not people spreading our “belief”. Rather, the idea is to hopefully open eyes to the ancient mythologies that keep people bound in false guilt and steal their money.  It’s a nowhere game.

Now take your foot out of your mouth or state a more factual case.

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By Annie, February 14, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53552 by Missy on 2/14 at 9:45 am

Annie

Thanks so much for the E. Fields quote, as I never knew who actually said it, yet I’ve seen many paraphrased versions of the original.


Oh any time you need one, Missy—just let me know!  I collect them!  smile I have a ton of them that I use as sig lines.  I have ticked some people off but I think most are bewildered!  haha!

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By Annie, February 14, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
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RE #:353617

Hi Willis,

According to the bible, Adam and Eve KNEW what was right without God having to have people stoned to death for being rebellious or for the following:

At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.—Exodus 12:29


The sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.—Jeremiah 12:12

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.—Deuteronomy 13:15


Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father—Genesis 19:32


Willis, God himself said: “And I will corrupt thy seed and spread dung upon thy face”.  Malachi 2:3

You don’t find that more than just a little over the top and vulgar? If Jesus was God then he had a very odd way of showing people.  He would ask the multitudes to love one another and pray for those who persecute him but that’s not what he did at all.  I have shown you before that he cursed his enemies, the pharisees—just for asking him questions.  He heated up!  Not ONCE did he ever bow and pray for his enemies when they offended him.  In the garden of gethsameane he prayed for his friends and those who would believe in him—-NOT his enemies.


“The biggest problem with interpreting written Language from thousands of years ago vs today’s understanding of what language is saying and interpreting one culture vs another culture is that we lose the meaning of what is communicated in the translation.”

Okay, but why do you think a benevolent and perfect God would use careless and imperfect men to write and re-write his “divine Word” and then lose it’s meaning and hinge mankind’s eternal destiny on it??  If he was God—then people today like yourself, have no vision of him, no speeches to listen to and no miracles to see.  You have to rely on second-hand hearsay from men who got the book wrong?  That’s not what Christ said though.  He said in Mark chapter 13 v. 31 “Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words will never pass away.”

So, clearly he meant that he was going to corrupt your seed and throw shit in your face.

It’s primitive writings, Willis and not just primitive men.  And it has been used for power, profit and mind control over the masses and has worked for just over 2000 years approximately.

Slowly people are waking up and in the states we’re winning one state at a time.

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By Lawrence, February 14, 2007 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
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To Willis:
I see the Atheists have migrated from their forum and have come to spread their belief here.
Just ignore them, they are but a few and really have nothing much to say.
Annie & Missy are pathetic people. They have nothing better to do but put down people who don’t agree with them.
They are both ignorant and contribute nothing to the spiritual part of being human.
Their beings are as empty as their atheistic belief.

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By willis, February 14, 2007 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment
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The purpose of the Mosiac Law was to provide Israel with laws to make them aware of sin. In order to sin, you first must know what is right and wrong, then chose what is wrong. Other groups of people surrounding the Israelites were doing evil things that GOD was trying to prevent the Israelites from becoming like their evil neighbors, because GOD had made a convenant with Abraham to make his offspring numberous.
These times were pimitive and people were of a primitive language and understanding. As time went on GOD knew that his people could not live up to this law so he planned well in advance to give them a new covenant. He would right his laws in the people’s hearts and minds. This is why we all have that internal born knowlegde of what is right and wrong. We all know that we should not lie, we should not steal, we should not kill, we should honor our mother & father. These laws are based on being a highly moral person. I think we all agree that we all should follow the ten commandments and that if we did this the world would be a better place.

Jesus came to earth not to do away with the law but to forfill it. What law was Jesus really talking about. He was talking about GOD’s law not just the Mosaic law. He came to give us primitive people (at that time), a better understanding of the purpose of the law and the reasons behind the law. He came to show us that what really is important is loving your neighbor and doing good deeds. Jesus came as a servant to others and came as a person in a lowly status in life and even cleaned the feet of his desciples to show them that although they see him as their master, if he humbles himself to them and serve them, that this is the example for them to follow in being a worthy person of GOD, in helping others. Everything that Jesus did was done to help others (except certain evil people who he knew could not be helped). The reason Jesus said he came to make war, set parents against children, sibling against sibling is because he knew that other Jews would not belive he came from GOD and that as he gave them more meaning on what were the right things, according to the law, to do that the old religious rulers would try to convince others that Jesus was wrong and they should not follow his ways. By a parent following the old religious teachers and the child following Jesus causes a separation in beleif of what are the right things and wrong things to do. This causes conflict and separation. This is why you have the Judism and Christianity because of this conflict on beleif of who Jesus is. Prophet or son of GOD?
This is the reason behind the war (holy wars), parent against child, sibling against sibling. Jesus just meant that by him shedding light on what GOD wants and interpretation of the law that this would set people against other people (even in their own household). 

The biggest problem with interpreting written Language from thousands of years ago vs today’s understanding of what language is saying and interpreting one culture vs another culture is that we lose the meaning of what is communicated in the translation. Although the bible is a representation of what was said, it is not neccessarily perfect in it’s ability to help people of today understand what was meant by the words written a long time ago, although the prime directive of love is still present.

I don’t claim to be an expert, but when I use my heart to follow the purpose of GOD, I read the bible with love in my mind and heart, I then interpret what was written as a guide to love as the purpose.
Some written words are not for me to take literally and there are other words for me to take literally. Knowing the difference is where the problem is.

Whether you believe in Jesus or not, I would have to say that he is a better example of living the right way than anyone else.

Willis

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By Annie, February 14, 2007 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53441 by The Skeptical cynic on 2/13 at 5:21 pm

I heard her do a talk on it.  I envy you!  It must have been a great experience—especially for people like myself who were ‘victims’ of the blind guide that is religoion.

I have not read
“The God Delusion” yet, but I am looking forward to it. smile

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By Missy, February 14, 2007 at 10:45 am Link to this comment
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Annie

Thanks so much for the E. Fields quote, as I never knew who actually said it, yet I’ve seen many paraphrased versions of the original.

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By The Skeptical cynic, February 13, 2007 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment
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Annie:
I met Julia Sweeney in May of last year at the American Humanist Association convention in Tampa, FL where she she received the Humanist Pioneer award. She performed her “Letting Go of God” there. I took the time to occasionally observe the ‘conventioneers’ during Ms Sweeny’s performance and I could sense/see that many of them, as I, were reliving   many of the same experiences as she portrayed hers. It was wonderfully cathartic as well as touching funny.

Have you read Dawkins “The God Delusion”. Great book!

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By Annie, February 13, 2007 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53366 by The Skeptical Cynic on 2/13 at 11:46 am

lol Point taken but I think you’re not only a cynic but a pessimist!  See, I believe that no matter how angry one gets at the truth—pieces of it will stick with some.  I believe this because it happened to me and I am not special. I am just not willfully ignorant.  Neither were Dan Barker, Julia Sweeny and many others who saw the truth and left the “blind faith”. 

The glass is half full.  wink

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By The Skeptical Cynic, February 13, 2007 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment
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Annie:
With respect to your comment:
I have no choice but to believe that they are either deliberatley ignorant [which is unforgiveable] OR they simply parrot what’s been spoon-fed to them all their lives and really don’t know the bible and/or qur’an at all.

The ignorant or naive may be forgivable but to wilfully and purposefully remain so is not only unforgivable but is contemptible stupidity bordering on criminality. Debating these issues with such ilk is an exercise in futility. (Ever try blowing out a light bulb?)

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By Annie, February 13, 2007 at 9:00 am Link to this comment
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RE: #53306 Missy

Oh yes!  How could I not be a fundamentalist, bible thumping Christian?  *snicker*  The truth is, I have a problem wondering how anyone who truly knows the bible or Qur’an could not see it for the contradictions and trash it peddles as well as it’s masogynistic and primitive tendencies of written word.  I have no choice but to believe that they are either deliberatley ignorant [which is unforgiveable] OR they simply parrot what’s been spoon-fed to them all their lives and really don’t know the bible and/or qur’an at all.  lol Isn’t it irony that those of us who try to be cordial even in the face of attacks are the anti-Christ and those who praise ‘his holy name’ are the ones who show us our slut characters and arrogance?  Just what DOES that say about Christ?  Missy, to people who think for themselves as you and I are capable of—it’s a joke! But we’ll always be the butt-end of their insults.  All in the name of religion *snicker*

I know the quote you are speaking of, I believe. I started a big lot of hoopla by using it in my emails at one time. [must be truth to it] smile  It’s by Emmet F. Fields and it goes like this:

“Once we can look at religion objectively and impartially, it becomes entirely obvious that religion has all the characteristics of a form of insanity. To one degree or another the religious mind must accept, and believe in, another world; a supernatural or unnatural world, a world filled with all sorts of imaginary beings called gods, devils, angels, saints, demons, etc. These imaginary creatures are talked to, asked for favors, guidance, “signs”, or miracles, and then blamed or thanked for natural events that follow. Except for the cloak of religion, such beliefs and actions would otherwise cause an individual to be judged insane, and committed to an institution for treatment.”

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By Missy, February 13, 2007 at 7:54 am Link to this comment
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Annie

Yes I do agree with you that it is probably thought that you would be the likely conversion….lol…according to that mind-set.  All aside you do seem genuine….you listen….you have empathy…and good rapport skills.  The clincher is that you KNOW the Bible inside and out.  How could you NOT convert after reading, studying, and mastering such an immaculent masterpiece of “truth?”  You, my friend, have the traits to be “walking with the lord,” and you are too close to god at this point in your life for you not to hear his calling, Annie! (snicker)

P.S.  What was that quote?  One person hearing voices and believing in the supernatural is considered delusional by DSM standards.  But with a whole crowd/masses exhibiting the same symptoms, we call it “religion.”

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By Annie, February 10, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
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RE; 52706 Michael

Ohh good one Michael.  And in fact, Jesus said he came to FULFILL the Law.  smile  Not to mention that he said he came to make war, set parents against children, sibling against sibling, etc.  He was an all around good guy.  wink

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By michael, February 9, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment
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about the comment that mosiac law is no longer in effect because of jesus’s comment about he who is whithout sin may cast the first stone.  why did he also say I have not come to replace the LAWS or prophets that came before me ?

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By Annie, February 9, 2007 at 12:06 am Link to this comment
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Comment #52487 by hope2endure on 2/08 at 11:17 am

your response to me,

“Missy had a question about the bible and I answered her back from the bible. God’s Word is reasonable and He encourages truth seekers to use their power of reason in sacred service.
Ephesians 5:17, Philippians 4:5”

You missed my point.  Missy is an atheist and as such should be answered about the bible by using reasoning.  I believe that’s what she was looking for.  Thus, my response to you.

“Re:rebellious teens,

The Mosaic Law was not “barbaric” it was designed to prevent the Israelites from becoming like the depraved, barbaric and spiritually unclean peoples that surrounded them (Amorites, Cannanites ect.)The Law made sin manifest and no human could live up to it. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law,that is why Jesus said “let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. Jesus Christ was the only one who perfectly fulfilled the Law.”

So, your contention is then, that it was okay for them under Mosaic Law to beat their children and stone them to death but it’s not okay today because Jesus came?  And that makes it alright….why???  Bearing in mind that women who were not virgins on their wedding nights were also stoned to death and that men were encouraged to have concubines.  Solomon had at least a thousand.

you also said,

“Student’s of the bible know that Israelites who fell into poverty could “sell” themselves to a fellow Israelites and could also “buy” themselves out. Also, later Christians who were enslaved under the Roman empire were encouraged to obtain their freedom if possible under Roman law. 1st Corinthians 7:21-23, Leviticus 25:49, Colossians 4:1”

Sir, madam,  I AM a student of the bible.  And even if what you say is true, and it’s only one of over 20,000 translations of the bible, does that still make it okay to OWN another human being?  Answer with your heart and what you think and not the bible, please. 

“Obviously snakes cannot talk, the serpent referred to in Eden was described as “the most cautious of all the wild beast in the field” and was viewed as non-threatening which is why Satan cunningly chose to use it as a medium to approach Eve. That is why Satan is called “the original serpent”, “Devil”(slanderer)and “Satan”(resister) and chief adversary of Jehovah. Genesis 3:1-5, Revelation 20:2, John 8:44.”

Why do you supposed the garden was considered perfect UNTIL Adam and Eve sinned even though that evil beast was in the garden?  By definition, doesn’t that make eden evil BEFORE they sinned?  Yet all of mankind is doomed because the beguiling woman [vagina] allowed herself to be duped by the snake. [penis]

“The seven-headed dragon that you referred to in Revelation is symbolic. The very first verse in Revelation 1:1 clearly states that the information in Revelation is presented in signs. The dragon is another symbol for Satan, “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him” Revelation 12:7-9. The other information you cite has nothing to do with the bible.”

The first Christian churches, the Greek Orthodox and the RCC disagree with your analysis of Revelation.  They claim it’s an allegory written in code.  Which of you are right? They translated first.  And re-read what you just wrote and tell me it doesn’t smack of mythology.

Thank you.

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By Annie, February 8, 2007 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment
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RE:# 52524 Willis

I agree with you, Willis, that we primates like other animals are very greedy, and ornery and very hateful at times.  Irregardless of religion, belief of disbelief in the unknown.

But also, I can’t help but notice that we become our greatest when things are at their worst.  For example, people [whether religious or atheist and regardless of what relgion] will run into a burning building like the WTC to help people that are running out and are hurt.  Or people standing in line to selflessly give blood—etc.  I think it’s important to take note of the bravery and goodness that is in mankind as well.  And like I said, they do these wonderfully brave things with or without religion.  It’s in us as animals to be petty on a small scale but also to guard our own kind on a grander scale.

RE:#52504 Missy

You said: “Annie…don’t you find it absolutely amazing that nearly all religous people ALWAYS say that we are “trying” to get them to change or convert them or we are “preaching” to THEM. (Besides, aren’t they the one’s who lick their fingers,thumb threw the bible, and then furiously blog from the Bible to us?) lol… It’s like their brain short-circuits and the learned defense mechanism of spouting the same bible-babble is programmed to go off…they get soooo threatened…..damn…..it’s like the robot on the Jetsons cartoon that short-circuits and repeats itself over and over with glazed over uncomprehending eyes…surreal.. “

Yes and yes and yes.  And yet at the atheist manifesto site I notice that gwmodel claims that only one of the “A” group [undoubtedly me] has a possibility of CONVERSION.” < that was HIS word not mine!  People often do that.  They mistake niceness for weakness.  I am the LAST person that could ever be converted back into religous ways.  Because I have known them—I understand them and I am more positive than ever that something’s amiss and I could never just dismiss that.

*sigh*  It’s never-ending, Missy.  But I say what I can when I can.  It does get tiring repeating yourself though, doesn’t it?  wink

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By willis, February 8, 2007 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment
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When I look at the world around me and ask what would make this world a better place, I come to the conclusion that loving your neighbor as you love yourself is the simplist thing that would make it a better place. People helping those who are less fortunate then them is a wonderful thing.

Irrespective of religion, there has always been evil people in this world, who have done terrible things (whether they believed in GOD or not). In my opinion, the problems of the world are not due to religion, but due to man’s greed, Jealousy, selfishness, lust, and thirst for power, money, fame, and control over others.

There have always been battles and people killing each other to conquer or get what others have, from the begining of time. The only difference, from time to time, is the false reasons people use to justify using their power and influence to control or destroy others.

So when I look at religion or the belief in GOD, I look at the puriest purpose of religion and GOD. Although I believe religion is seperate from GOD, they both have the same pure purpose. The common pure purpose is for people to love each other. But this message gets twisted and confused and becomes hard for people to understand. I think in people heart they basically know what is right and wrong and just chose to do wrong. I also belive that that voice deep down in your heart telling you to do the right thing iss GOD.

The problem comes from people who are wolves in sheep clothing. These kind of people will preach goodness and get you to think that they are doing things out of kindness but actually they use people and misrespresent the facts to get what they want and to control others.

It is my belief that the problem is not GOD or Religion but the problem is evil people who come in the name of religion or come in their own name doing evil deeds (wolves in sheep clothing).
Just because you are religious or even if you are not, does not make you a good person.

What makes you a good person is having love for others in your heart and doing good deeds for those who are less fortunate.

I try to be good to people but at the same time I will defend myself if someone tries to be violent torwards me. But for the most part if someone does not like me or says bad things about me I turn the other check and try not to deal with those kind of people, because they will temp you to do bad things in response to their evil ways. In my heart I would never want to hurt anyone, but if someone forces your hand to protect yourself I think that it is ok to defend yourself. Just don’t go looking for trouble and try to stay away from bad people.

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By Missy, February 8, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
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To Annie:

Johnny’s comment:

If someone thinks there is a God and it makes them a better person, why try to get them to think as you do ?”

Hope2endure’s comment:

Annie why are you preaching your belief in atheism on this site? Is free speech infringing on your rights?

Annie…don’t you find it absolutely amazing that nearly all religous people ALWAYS say that we are “trying” to get them to change or convert them or we are “preaching” to THEM. (Besides, aren’t they the one’s who lick their fingers,thumb threw the bible, and then furiously blog from the Bible to us?) lol…  It’s like their brain short-circuits and the learned defense mechanism of spouting the same bible-babble is programmed to go off…they get soooo threatened…..damn…..it’s like the robot on the Jetsons cartoon that short-circuits and repeats itself over and over with glazed over uncomprehending eyes…surreal..

And the real clencher is when they claim you to be evil or condem you to hell with bible verses:

Hope2endure’s comment:“The wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search: All his ideas are “There is no God”. Psalms 10:4

I see a never endless pattern, Annie.  Perhaps a nice Calgon bath or a delusional rapture can “take us away” from this madness… (sigh)

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By hope2endure, February 8, 2007 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment
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Annie states,

“Missy’s questions regarding the killing of people under Mosaic and Levitical law was a very valid one and yet you answered her with the bible. Answer with your gift of reasoning.  If there is a creator, isn’t it true that [it] gave you your gift of reason and not of religion?”

Missy had a question about the bible and I answered her back from the bible. God’s Word is reasonable and He encourages truth seekers to use their power of reason in sacred service.
Ephesians 5:17, Philippians 4:5

Re:rebellious teens, Annie says

“So that makes it alright?  Why are we not stoning our children today? They act up all the time!  You know why just as I do.  It’s barbaric now and it was barbaric then.  But primitive men did amazingly primitive things.  Even in New Testament Law of so-called Grace, Paul said of slavery: Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22:
“Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily…”

The Mosaic Law was not “barbaric” it was designed to prevent the Israelites from becoming like the depraved, barbaric and spiritually unclean peoples that surrounded them (Amorites, Cannanites ect.)The Law made sin manifest and no human could live up to it. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law,that is why Jesus said “let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. Jesus Christ was the only one who perfectly fulfilled the Law.

Annie also says,

“Here God shows that he is in complete acceptance of a slave’s position, and encourages slaves to work hard. This sentiment is repeated in Titus, chapter 2 verse 9: “Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity”.  And all this under the law of “grace”.”

Student’s of the bible know that Israelites who fell into poverty could “sell” themselves to a fellow Israelites and could also “buy” themselves out. Also, later Christians who were enslaved under the Roman empire were encouraged to obtain their freedom if possible under Roman law. 1st Corinthians 7:21-23, Leviticus 25:49, Colossians 4:1

Annie says,

“Have you ever seen a talking snake?  Or a person turn into a pillar of salt?  Have you ever seen a seven headed dragon? [if not then you’re trusting in hearsay of a bronze-age tribesman named John who you don’t even know].  A revelation by definition is something that has been revealed personally.  Have you seen streets of gold or satyrs [half man-half goat] dancing?  No.  Why did all these mythological creatures exist in the bible days and not now?  Remember, I don’t believe the bible so please answer me with your reasoning. Anyone, including me, can quote the bible.”

Obviously snakes cannot talk, the serpent referred to in Eden was described as “the most cautious of all the wild beast in the field” and was viewed as non-threatening which is why Satan cunningly chose to use it as a medium to approach Eve. That is why Satan is called “the original serpent”, “Devil”(slanderer)and “Satan”(resister) and chief adversary of Jehovah. Genesis 3:1-5, Revelation 20:2, John 8:44.

The seven-headed dragon that you referred to in Revelation is symbolic. The very first verse in Revelation 1:1 clearly states that the information in Revelation is presented in signs. The dragon is another symbol for Satan, “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him” Revelation 12:7-9. The other information you cite has nothing to do with the bible.

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By Annie, February 8, 2007 at 6:41 am Link to this comment
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Comment #52329 by hope2endure on 2/07 at 3:20 pm

Annie said,

“If you want your god—don’t peddle him.  Make it truly a personal thing.  Otherwise, you’re preaching and infringing on others’ rights. It’s just hipocrisy.”

You’re talking about religion.  Johnny and I were talking about his god.  He is a Jew. But since you asked, yes, I feel it is right and good to speak of science for answers as opposed to religion as it has done nothing but take lives and destroy people.  The good that has been done in the name of religion is..well.. pretty much non-existent.

“Annie why are you preaching your belief in atheism on this site? Is free speech infringing on your rights?”

Atheism is just a name for “non-belief”.  I PREACH nothing. I only toss out ideas on the table.
  Free speech—-Yes!  It’s constant theocracy spinning it’s wheels on democracy.  Absolutely!  And I will wager that you’d feel the same way if Islam got it’s way and came here and attempted to force conversion onto you.  You’d be more than just apalled! 

Jesus commanded his followers to preach the good news of God’s Kingdom. He also stated that “Whenever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or city shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgement Day that for that city”. Matthew 10:14-15.

“The wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search: All his ideas are “There is no God”. Psalms 10:4

Blah blah.  Not to be rude but I know something of the bible…lol And you can’t win a debate by using it. i.e. Do people actually take you in?  Have you ever taken people in?  Would you now?  Did Jesus do everything he said for you to do?  Face it, he was a “do as I say, not as I do” kind of person.  Otherwise, all Christians are as doomed as this “Christ” said.  Why would he call the place a ‘city’?

Right right.  But you now what they say…It’s the fool who says in his heart “there is no God”—but it’s the wise man who says it out loud.

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By hope2endure, February 7, 2007 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment
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Annie said,

“If you want your god—don’t peddle him.  Make it truly a personal thing.  Otherwise, you’re preaching and infringing on others’ rights. It’s just hipocrisy.”

Annie why are you preaching your belief in atheism on this site? Is free speech infringing on your rights?

Jesus commanded his followers to preach the good news of God’s Kingdom. He also stated that “Whenever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or city shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgement Day that for that city”. Matthew 10:14-15.

“The wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search: All his ideas are “There is no God”. Psalms 10:4

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By Annie, February 7, 2007 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment
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RE: #52268 Johnny

You stated:

““I do agree with you that religious fundamentalist of any religion create hate and alienation for those who don’t believe as they do.
However, we are not talking about religion but the one to one personal relationship an individual has with God.”

Congratulations, Johnny.  You just lived out the above accusation regarding fundamentalists, and you did it in written form. You spewed much hate and venom my way by getting personal with me without knowing me personally. 

Your new and personal accusation against me: ” I see your new belief, Atheism, is not the way to go. It has only made you a hateful person and closed your mind to the possibilty of spiritual bliss and self actualization of the self.
Take care and have a good life. “

...and yet it is YOU who is being hateful with me.  Irony of all irony.  Atheism isn’t my new belief.  It is, however, where I find myself in disbelief.  God is not disproven to me but any form of a god IS UNproven to me.  And yes, just look at how you referred to me, yet you consider yourself a man of Godly beliefs and morals.  But you can’t show me one post where I called you a name, cast any aspersions against you or denied you your right to belief.  I am better than the religious—I repeat it again and thank you for proving the point.

I think it’s you who cannot be reasoned with…so again, we’re at an impasse.

*shrug*

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By Johnny, February 7, 2007 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment
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Annie:

I see I cannot reason with you.
Someone who thinks that they are more moral than anybody who believes in God is an arrogant and egotistical person.
I see your new belief, Atheism, is not the way to go. It has only made you a hateful person and closed your mind to the possibilty of spiritual bliss and self actualization of the self.
Take care and have a good life.

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By Annie, February 7, 2007 at 6:20 am Link to this comment
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Comment #52144 by Johnny on 2/06 at 9:18 pm

Annie:

“Denying Christ is not the same as denying God.
You are just unable to separate God from man made religions.”

There really isn’t a difference.  To have gods or a specific God is religion in and of itself—with or without a Christ.

That is why you are unable to understand this featured article by Reverend Shockley
You have been conditioned by years of religious dogma that religion is God or that Christ & God are one in the same.

No, no.  I think it’s you who doesn’t understand the power of Christianity in moderation as in this Reverend’s words.  Maybe you have to live it to understand. 
“Most people who believe in God are not even religious.”

I agree that many believe in god and are not religious—not MOST.
 
“We all wonder, when bad things happen, whether God really exists.
Most continue to believe. However, some like you, decide not to believe. That is your choice and you are free to do it. If it makes you happy, good for you.
However, I think it very self serving that you try to get others to think as you do regardless of whether it makes them feel good or better people.”

Johnny, when did I try to get you not to believe?  I told you twice at least that if it makes you better—fine!  I have many Deist friends.  So, that’s an erroneous statement.  I would, however, love to see religion abolished for the very reason you state next. 


“I do agree with you that religious fundamentalist of any religion create hate and alienation for those who don’t believe as they do.
However, we are not talking about religion but the one to one personal relationship an individual has with God.”

He’s talking about Christ and Christian belief is religion. 

If someone thinks there is a God and it makes them a better person, why try to get them to think as you do ?”

Again!  I don’t care as long as they’re not peddling the crap.  That should be very personal and not forced on ANYONE.  You KNOW this!

“Do you think yourself to be a better person then the believer who is a good person also ?”

Absolutely.  I am more moral by far than any religious person I know or have met.  Yes. 

Do you think that those who believe in God are less intelligent than you ?”

No, I find them willfully ignorant, though and that’s unforgiveable. 
“Are you the only one who has read scientific theories about the creation of the universe and life on Earth ? .......”
Peace & Love

The rest of this is all a means to insult and defy me because you know I am right.  It amuses me.  If you want your god—don’t peddle him.  Make it truly a personal thing.  Otherwise, you’re preaching and infringing on others’ rights. It’s just hipocrisy.
Also, Johnny…you don’t mean “Peace & Love” so why do you sign off like that?

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By Johnny, February 6, 2007 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment
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Annie:

Denying Christ is not the same as denying God.
You are just unable to separate God from man made religions.
That is why you are unable to understand this featured article by Reverend Shockley
You have been conditioned by years of religious dogma that religion is God or that Christ & God are one in the same.
God is not religion & Jesus is not God or the son of God. I have told you this before and you seem unable to understand this concept.
Most people who believe in God are not even religious.
We all wonder, when bad things happen, whether God really exists.
Most continue to believe. However, some like you, decide not to believe. That is your choice and you are free to do it. If it makes you happy, good for you.
However, I think it very self serving that you try to get others to think as you do regardless of whether it makes them feel good or better people.
I do agree with you that religious fundamentalist of any religion create hate and alienation for those who don’t believe as they do.
However, we are not talking about religion but the one to one personal relationship an individual has with God.
If someone thinks there is a God and it makes them a better person, why try to get them to think as you do ?
Do you think yourself to be a better person then the believer who is a good person also ?
Do you think that those who believe in God are less intelligent than you ?
Are you the only one who has read scientific theories about the creation of the universe and life on Earth ?
Do you think yourself to be a know it all ?
Who are you to tell Believers that you have found the way to salvation through science and Atheism and that they are slaves to a sadistic God ?
God is not the problem, people & religion are !
God is believed to be good, it is man who makes things bad through the misuse and abuse of religion and what they think God wants.
Your way to salvation, through science and Atheism, is no better than salvation through belief in God and the doing of good deeds.
I believe in God. I look to God as the father & mother of us all. Just as parents want the best for their children so does God. The road is often not easy but the hope is always there.
When you see God as imperfect, you base it on your view of perfection. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. What might be perfect in your eyes may not be perfect in the eyes of an expert.
If a perfect God is someone granting your every request or creating only good and not bad, that is your human conception.
Children also believe what they think to be right or wrong. However, they are usually too inexperienced and unlearned to make proper judgements and need guidance.
Do you think a person who lives 30 or 100 years, and has only finite knowledge of the world around them, can know the answer to everthing ? 
I could live 10,000 yrs. and never know everything.
I believe that the Universe and world took longer than six human Earth days to create and in the evolution of species to a certain degree. I however believe that humans are a distinct species and evolved from humanoid ancestors rather than monkeys. By the way, there is no scientific proof supporting this theory. The missing link is still missing.
Science is supposed to enlighten humans about the world around them and not to deny God.
Science makes hypotheses on observable events by determining the cause and effect of how they came to be.
Our present day science has still not finalized it theories on the cause & effect of existence.
The one thing that modern day scientific theory does proclaim is that “Order out of chaos without “Cause” is not possible. That “Cause” has yet to be determined.
I believe it to be God and you are free to believe as you wish.
Believe as you wish if it spiritually completes you as a person or makes you a better human being.
Peace & Love

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By Annie, February 6, 2007 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment
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RE: #52000 Missy

LOL “Annie: Again, I read all posts on this blog as well as “An Athiest Manifesto” daily.  I really do enjoy both.  I’ve decided to stay(busy with thesis) silent unless I have some free time.  Frankly, I don’t know how you find the time to respond as you do, but please keep it up, as I’m sure there are several people like me who enjoy reading your postings!

Btw Annie, I just have to mention that I find it hilarious when you make a dig/comment at a faithy and then snicker…lol! 

Peace and an anti-religous epiphany to all! lol…sigh “

Hilarious!  I was glad to see you had posted here when I first came and read about this.  I even said this following post on our behalf but it never posted. And of course, we wouldn’t be answered appropriately anyway.  I keep EVERYTHING until I see results…and maybe even keep it still.  smile  Old habits die hard. 
RE: 47572 Hope2endure

Missy’s questions regarding the killing of people under Mosaic and Levitical law was a very valid one and yet you answered her with the bible.

Answer with your gift of reasoning.  If there is a creator, isn’t it true that [it] gave you your gift of reason and not of religion? 

You stated to Missy: “Deuteronomy 21:18-21 God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers”

“When Israel was under the law covenant, it made provisions for unrepentant rebellious and disobedient ones. Notice it says “he is not listening to the voice of his father or his mother and they have corrected him but he will not listen to them” and “so you must clear away what is bad from your midst and all Israel will become afraid”. The son in this instance was and unrepentant drunkard and glutton which brought defilement into Israel”.

So that makes it alright?  Why are we not stoning our children today? They act up all the time!  You know why just as I do.  It’s barbaric now and it was barbaric then.  But primitive men did amazingly primitive things.  Even in New Testament Law of so-called Grace, Paul said of slavery: Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22:
“Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily…

Here God shows that he is in complete acceptance of a slave’s position, and encourages slaves to work hard. This sentiment is repeated in Titus, chapter 2 verse 9:
“Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity”.  And all this under the law of “grace”.

Have you ever seen a talking snake?  Or a person turn into a pillar of salt?  Have you ever seen a seven headed dragon? [if not then you’re trusting in hearsay of a bronze-age tribesman named John who you don’t even know].  A revelation by definition is something that has been revealed personally.  Have you seen streets of gold or satyrs [half man-half goat] dancing?  No.  Why did all these mythological creatures exist in the bible days and not now?  Remember, I don’t believe the bible so please answer me with your reasoning. Anyone, including me, can quote the bible.

Thanks very much in advance.


Missy, I don’t know why that never posted but there’s no going into it anyway—just as you said.  Also, just so you know, I work from my computer for 4-6 hours per day.  So I keep my outlook open and when I hear a “ding”—-often times it’s “Truthdig” and I respond if necessary.  And as you know, it’s almost ALWAYS necessary.  smile

“God” bless, Missy. *snicker* [haha]

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By Missy, February 6, 2007 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #51283 by Johnny on 2/02 at 10:51 am

Missy:

You need to read the featured article again yourself.
Nothing is mentioned about Atheism or a no God world…


Johnny…I never wrote that the article mentioned Athiesm or a no god world! Damn why does it seem that the religous are always making up crap like this?  Do you realize that saying that appears as rediculous as hell?  Sorry to be so rude but it’s frustrating.  I’d give a million to have an ongoing blog without such delusional interference.

Btw, I read your postings to me and WISH I had time to post a reply to your every paragraph…but the truth is, I don’t.  Nevertheless, we agree to disagree, but this line where you wrote:

It is time for God to end this nonsense and bring Judgement day upon man for his failure…

This is all I needed to read to know your mind set….there’s no need to “attempt” to have a rational blog with you.  It’s a waste of time as far as I’m concerned.

Annie: Again, I read all posts on this blog as well as “An Athiest Manifesto” daily.  I really do enjoy both.  I’ve decided to stay(busy with thesis) silent unless I have some free time.  Frankly, I don’t know how you find the time to respond as you do, but please keep it up, as I’m sure there are several people like me who enjoy reading your postings!

Btw Annie, I just have to mention that I find it hilarious when you make a dig/comment at a faithy and then snicker…lol! 

Peace and an anti-religous epiphany to all! lol…sigh

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By Annie, February 6, 2007 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: # 51825 Johnny

Johnny,

If you were to just write to the staff here at “Truthdig” you would find that the only reason this “reverend” was able to get an article published was because he denies the divinity of Christ.  That IS progress because I can tell you, 99 percent of Christians—maybe even MORE—would tell you that this man is not a Christian.  And yes, you’re right.  It’s that same “holier than thou” attitude that would lead them to this. But also a verse in the bible that they hold dear regarding anyone who denies the deity of Christ.  Paul the apostle admonishes the people to be on the look out for people who claim that Jesus is not that Christ because they are false prophets.

I still stand by this:  This site is not a Christian site by any means and I dare say, from the articles here that I have read, it’s means is to debunk religion.  That is very clear to me.

As far as Hebrew, there are no consonants in original Hebrew.  English translated YHWH to Yahweh, etc.  With all these translations and re-interpretations by men how can you think that they wouldn’t get the original meaning wrong?

Jews in the states and in the UK, etc may practice “love one another” and maybe they don’t.  One thing is for sure—Israel does NOT practice it.  She is as mean and fierce as her neighboring enemy.

Thank you for the civil post.  It’s rare and it’s appreciated.

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By Johnny, February 5, 2007 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie:

Your comment 51184 states “This is not a Christian site at all”.
This site talks about Progressive Christian thinkers who still believe in God.
They are still Christians and believe Jesus was a Jewish preacher and never wanted to create a new religion. I agree myself with this statement.
However, they do believe in his message to “Love One Another”. They believe in the continued practice of using those statements of Jesus and other Christians leaders which support the practice of loving your fellow person.
There is not one word or phrase that says that they believe no God exists.
This is a discussion within Christianity and its need to progress in its thinking.
You agree & I agree on the need for Christian dogma to change from the belief that only through Jesus can one achieve salvation and enter into the gates of Heaven.
What I disagree with is that you interprete this article as supporting your no God belief.
Here you are dead wrong.
I told you before that religion and God are two different subjects.
I know many people who are not religious but still believe in God.
Actually, most people do not practice most of the rituals of their religions but still believe there is a God.
It is the “holy than you” religious crowd that has changed the holy words of God into something hateful and alienating to many people.
The Hebrews were Abraham, Issac & Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons that became the 12 tribes of Israel. The kingdom of Solomon split from internal civil war and the 10 tribes were eventually exiled by the Assyrians. There was only the royal tribe of Judah that was left with the tribe of Levi. It was for this reason that the land became known as Judea which was what the foreign nations called it. When the Judeans had to flee from the Middle East and immigrate to Europe, the Europeans called them Jews.
The teachings of Abraham the Hebrew, Moses the Israelite and Jesus the Jew brought the sayings of “Do what is right & just, Love your fellow person as yourself” and “Love one another”, to the rest of the world.
This has always been the true teaching of the Jewish people who were descendant of the Hebrews and original tribes of Israel.
It was Christian teaching that made Jesus a god figure and alienated anyone who did not believe in Jesus as the only way to salvation.
Same goes for Islam who states that anyone who does not believe that Mohammod is the prophet of Allah and that his teachings are true is an infidel and worthy of death.
God is not a religion. There are many religions. However, there can be only One God.
It that controls all can only be “ONE”.
The most sacred Jewish prayer goes, ” Hear all of Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One”.
Lord is an English translation. The Hebrew word in English transliteration is pronounced “YAHOVA” and not Jehova as the Christians pronounce it.
The meaning of the Hebrew name is “LOVE”.
ELOHIM, which is the Hebrew word for the English name God, is the general term used by people to describe the all powerful creator. ELOHIM is translated into English and means the “Power above all the powers of creation. 
The real Hebrew meaning of that sacred prayer is ” Hear Israel,  The Power above all other powers is a God of love, that God of love is the One and only God”.
According to Judaism there are many powers in this existence that we humans worship and call God. But the only true God is the One that   Loves us and wants us to love one another.
If only man would truly apply this teaching. Humans would finally achieve Heaven on Earth !
Love and Peace

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By Annie, February 4, 2007 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #51554 by Sidney Hturt on 2/04 at 7:21 am

“Annie:
Progressive site does not mean Atheistic site.
Progressive Christians vs Traditional Christians is what is being discussed in the above featured article”.

I never said progressive meant atheist.  I know the difference in the two words.  However, religiosity is NOT progressive.  This man’s title has NO BEARING whatsoever on the fact that he has weighed out a new idea for people to consider—that’s PROGRESS.

“You cannot even admit that you are dead wrong and try to find some phrase that will support your position. I am too intelligent for that nonsense.”

Okay, you have made your statement that you are too intelligent for all this nonsense.  So what the hell are you doing here?

“You are no different than the very religious. They also try to distort truth by self serving statements from the bible.”

Show me where and show me how—if you can—and I will admit I am wrong. You have my word. But in truth, you won’t be able to because as a person I am entitled to an opinion whether YOU like it or not.

“Your past, as a Christian missionary, serves you well as a “now” missionary Atheist spreading the word. What will you be preaching tomorrow ?
One extreme to another is what you are all about.
You are a very arrogant and self centered person.
If you are what Atheism is about, you can keep it.”

With all due respect, sir.  You do not know me.  I am as complex an individual as you fancy yourself and maybe even more so.  You have made a random accusation that I am arrogant and self-centered, yet you haven’t bothered to chat with me here, get to know why it is that I feel the way I do; or why I lost faith in religions and gods and monsters, etc.  You are completely clueless as to why I feel strongly that atheism would serve the world better.  And in a nutshell, you haven’t walked a step in my shoes much less a mile.  Yet you’ve gotten personal with me.  Who’s being arrogant now?  YOU think about THAT!

And as far as what will happen with me tomorrow—who can say?  YOU?  No, you can’t tell me.  What will happen to you?  Will you remain stuck in that brown boxed in world that you lived in or will you CHANGE.  Without change there’s no growth and if you’re as intelligent as you say, then you know this.  However, if you want to stay stuck that says more than your written words ever could.  I am used to being insulted both when I was Christian and now.  But I know who I am and that’s more than what’s apparent regarding you.  You seem to THINK you know.  If I truly knew you as well as you think you know me, I might say you’re a dangerous man.  But I don’t know you, so I will weigh it out with my wisdom and draw from the well of my 20 years of experience and say that you’re just frustrated with atheists in general.  I refuse take you seriously.

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By Annie, February 4, 2007 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: # 51497 Johnny
And # 51507

Johnny, why do you promote “Love one another—it’s that simple” and then say people have to be killed to enforce that idea?  The two can’t be reconciled to one another.  And the Hebrew bible alienates gentiles from Jews and that’s not loving one another either. So I strongly disagree with your thought process on that.

However, I am beginning to think that you like placing people at complete odds with you since I agreed with you about Hussein and yet I come here today to find you preaching at me about him—as if I didn’t know or feel the same way as you do about it! 

We’re not so different with the exception in ANY belief in a god whatsoever—and certainly not one that wages war and favours Jews.  So, why don’t YOU come down of YOUR high horse and quit being so haughty with me?  I am not your enemy.  Nor do I see you as mine.  We’re just discussing so there’s no need for people here to get personal.  That’s the most ignorant thing about these chats.  People are passionate—and that’s fine.  But when it gets personal to another human being in cyberworld that you don’t know -yet have plenty of ideations about their personality, etc…that IS a problem and is definitely NOT in keeping with “love one another”.

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By Sidney Hturt, February 4, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie:
Progressive site does not mean Atheistic site.
Progressive Christians vs Traditional Christians is what is being discussed in the above featured article.
The person writing this article is a “Reverend Madison Shockley”. That sounds like a religious title to me.
You cannot even admit that you are dead wrong and try to find some phrase that will support your position. I am too intelligent for that nonsense.
You are no different than the very religious. They also try to distort truth by self serving statements from the bible.
Your past, as a Christian missionary, serves you well as a “now” missionary Atheist spreading the word. What will you be preaching tomorrow ?
One extreme to another is what you are all about.
You are a very arrogant and self centered person.
If you are what Atheism is about, you can keep it.

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