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DIG DIRECTOR

The Rev. Madison Shockley
The Rev. Madison Shockley is a minister of the United Church of Christ in Carlsbad, Calif. and a regular commentator on religion, race, politics and popular culture....










 

Jesus: The Man, the Myth

What is the truth about Jesus? What is the truth about the Christ? Are they the same truth? Are they the same person? Most people (religious and nonreligious) think of one person to whom they commonly refer as Jesus Christ as though Christ were this person’s surname. Christ is not Jesus’ last name but instead is an honorific title. It comes from the Greek word christos. The Greek christos is a translation of the Hebrew word messiah, meaning anointed one. This was the title of leadership given to Israelite kings and priests because they were doused or anointed with oil as a sign of their office. As it pertains to Jesus, he was called Christ as an expression of faith that he had been anointed by God as king and priest. The followers of this Jesus eventually gathered themselves into congregations of the Christ and ultimately into the Christian Church.

The truth about Jesus is that he was a human being who lived and died as every person born ever has. Jesus was most likely born in Nazareth of the Galilee and certainly was raised there. He was a Jewish wisdom teacher and exorcist/healer who lived in the Galilee province of the Roman Empire between 4 BCE (before the Common Era) and 30 CE. His mother was known as Mary. His father was likely Joseph.

The truth about Jesus is that he never intended to start a church or a new religion. He did not understand himself to be the divine Son of God; rather, he saw himself as the “Son of [hu]Man[ity]” or an “average Joe.” Not only did he not start a church, he joined the reform movement of John the Baptizer (aka John the Baptist), who was a popular and charismatic Jewish prophet.

So who is Jesus Christ? The Jesus Christ of most traditional theology is a distortion of both the Jesus of history and the Christ of the Christian faith—an attempt to take the metaphor of Christ and invest it totally in the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth. It is a distortion because it makes a very Jewish Jesus into the first Christian and not the faithful Jew that he was. The truth about “Jesus Christ” is that when we look only at this hybrid concept we lose clear sight of both the human being and the mythological icon. What we hope to do in this dig is excavate separately the man (Jesus) and the myth (Christ) and unearth a new meaning for the statement “Jesus [is] Christ.”

Evidence and Methodology

The first problem in disentangling the man from the myth is that we have no direct contemporary historical evidence of Jesus’ existence, let alone enough information to give us a true image of the man we seek. We only have faith documents, written decades after Jesus’ death, which by the admission of one “... are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name” (Gospel of John 20:31). The pursuit of this “de-mythologized” Jesus is known in academic circles as the “quest for the historical Jesus.”

The quest for the historical Jesus was born out of Enlightenment sensibilities and freedoms that liberated the Bible from the Church and made it available to nonreligious bodies for interpretation and study. Scientific inquiry knew no limits, and quickly the miraculous and mythical elements of the Christian texts came under strict scrutiny. This was not done lightly. One of the early “questers” published his work posthumously lest he come to an untimely demise. None other than Sir Albert Schweitzer conducted the most famous quest. We generally know him as the kindly physician, environmentalist and animal activist who lived out his life treating Africans deep in the jungle. But he became a physician only after a career as a professor of theology. His book “The Quest for the Historical Jesus” (1906) proclaimed that Jesus was an apocalyptic Jewish mystic who preached the imminent end of the world. Schweitzer says of Jesus, “When this did not happen, and the great wheel of history refused to turn, he threw himself upon it, [and] was crushed in the process….” Thus ended Schweitzer’s theological career.

The current quest began in the 1970s. The ethos of the early “questers” has now permeated most mainstream seminary curricula. Several generations of ministers have been trained in the historical-critical method that interprets the Christian texts from a literary and historical perspective and ignores the doctrines of the Church. This methodology constitutes the basic tools for those excavating Jesus from under the layers of faith, fantasy and fact that have covered him over the years. These historically trained ministers have carried on the traditional faith in their pulpits despite their new perspective, producing a phenomenon that Jack Good describes in his book “The Dishonest Church.” In academic gatherings they pursue the truth with passion, but in the local church they teach Sunday school lessons from generations past.

Therefore while much of this truth has been known in the academy, it has only trickled into the pews of the churches. The scholarship of the Jesus Seminar of the Westar Institute, a gathering of more than 200 professionally trained specialists, is at the forefront of this current quest for the historical Jesus. Their central contribution has been the publication of “The Five Gospels.” Not only does this work expand the Gospel canon from four to five (they hold the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas as having equal historical value to the traditional Matthew, Mark, Luke and John), but in a twist on previous “red-letter” editions of the New Testament, in which all the words attributed to Jesus are colored red, the scholars of the Jesus Seminar apply four different shadings to the words attributed to Jesus. Black for words strictly the product of the early church with no connection to the historical Jesus. Gray for words likely the product of the early church but consistent with the core message of Jesus. Pink for words consistent with the core message of Jesus but as likely to be the product of his earliest followers. Red for words that are consistent with the core message of Jesus and likely to have been spoken by him in similar form. Their conclusion: Only 20% of the words traditionally attributed to Jesus deserve a red or pink rating.

A major presupposition of the project was that Matthew and Luke used a common written document as a source of their sayings of Jesus. Such a document has never been found, but by isolating the ideas and sayings of Jesus that did not appear in Mark, the Jesus Seminar identified a body of sayings it called “Q” (the first letter of the German word quelle, which means source).  The scholars believe this document was the earliest written account of Jesus’ teaching and is therefore more relevant to understanding who the historical Jesus really was than any of the canonical Gospels.

Once the historical words of Jesus are separated from the speculative rhetoric of the early Christian church, a very different image of this man emerges. The next phase of the quest was to identify, by a kind of historical-literary triangulation, what this man Jesus actually did. Taking first what Jesus said and mapping the progression of what others said about him, the Jesus Seminar proceeded to develop an outline of his ministry and then his mission. By tracking the response to and interpretation of the words and works of Jesus by these writers they were able to discover how the image of Jesus grew. These findings are contained in another book from the Jesus Seminar, “The Acts of Jesus.

They conjecture that originally Jesus was received and perceived as a Jewish sage, a wisdom teacher with a message of unconventional wisdom who did some healings and exorcisms on the side. He preached a vision of the “Empire of God,” which was an alternative to the brutal Roman Empire, and available to anyone who followed the precepts of his unconventional wisdom. “Blessed are the poor” was certainly not a rational view of the world in which Jesus lived, yet it was the very foundation of his philosophy and theology.

Continued: The Death of Jesus
Dig last updated on Dec. 20, 2005


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Dig Director's Blog

Apr. 12, 2006

Hallelujah! Easter is almost here. Aren’t you glad? What’s that low sigh I hear? Ohhhhh that’s right, you’re one of those progressive Christians. Easter is probably the most conflicted time of the year among progressive churches, even more so than Christmas. Even a progressive Christian can reasonably assert that Jesus was really born, even as the debate goes on among others about how he was born. But this is not so with Easter. Either he was resurrected or he was not. And when we say he was not, then someone somewhere will quote I Corinthians 15:12 to us, “Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?”

- - -
Dec. 22, 2005

Shockley addresses reader comments regarding the historical Jesus and representations of “the Christ.”

- - -
Dec. 21, 2005

The culture wars have clearly gotten out of hand when the front line is Christmas.

- - -
 
 
 

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Annie Reitano's avatar

By Annie Reitano, July 26, 2007 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

And I lived as a missionary in Jinan, China for awhile.  Seems we have something in common.  We lived what we speak.

As far as Saudi, well, IMO, it just shows what religious zealotry does to a person.  And Islam is today where Christianity was 500 years ago…killing, and pillaging, torturing, etc.  They’re just behind is all.

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By tgambill, July 26, 2007 at 6:48 am Link to this comment

“How did you come to believe such stuff?
Who told you about it? “

Well, we are here.  You might as well get used to it.  However, take heart.  There will be coming a time very soon that Christians won’t be here, but what will be left for 7 years will be the most despotic world government that will make Hitler look pale in comparison.

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By tgambill, July 26, 2007 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

I lived in Saudi for four 3.75 years.

delete the “four”.....forgot.

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By tgambill, July 26, 2007 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

I lived in Saudi for four 3.75 years.  I was dealing with Physical Security by setting up protection for our advisors to the SANG.  You could practice Bible study’s however, they had to be conducted in secret.  If you were caught distributing Bibles et al, it was the death penalty as it is now.  This happened to two foreign nationals in 1995 and only with intervention of their country were they saved from death.  The same goes for any others caught.  I was there from 1996 to 1999.  They might allow you to bring one Bible in your luggage, but no more. 

they also censure every single western magazine that enters the country.  Censured by cutting out pages with reference to any religion other than Islam and any reference to alcohol or revealing sexual photo’s…..I know because I lived there…........

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By Annie Reitano, July 25, 2007 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment

“** This is not true.  You can’t have any free thoughts or you will die.  What if the person didn’t want to shed their Christianity?  If in china you would be imprisoned or executed.  As in the middle east…....Saudi is a good example.  Can’t compare loving your fellow man with a heron addict.”

It is absolutely true!  If you live in China or Saudi Arabia and really want to practice Christianity, who’s going to stop you?  You can’t block out what’s in someone’s mind unless they want to do it for themselves.  And let’s face it, if you lived in Saudi Arabia, chances are your biggest challenge would be detoxifying yourself off of Allah. smile

Please provide verse and book that states that God tested Adam and Eve because they didn’t have minds of their own.

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

Is there any place in the bible that states that God supposedly gave Adam and Eve a choice of which tree to eat from because they were robots with no minds?


yes, he gave us free will when he made us in his image. 

The brainwashing has actually been the Anti-Christ viewpoints. The exception is the hard corp “Christian” Catholic method of control, granted. 


“Because we are humans with the herd mentality, if you were in China or another country that doesn’t adhere to Christianity, you would be able to shed the fantasy easier.”

** This is not true.  You can’t have any free thoughts or you will die.  What if the person didn’t want to shed their Christianity?  If in china you would be imprisoned or executed.  As in the middle east…....Saudi is a good example.  Can’t compare loving your fellow man with a heron addict.  smile  Oppps

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

lolol….wow. you would do good for the KKK, as stupid as they are, they would pay you big money to become a spokesman for them.  smile

Your worse fears will soon come to fruition.  Just be patient.  oh my. 

You see, this gives me more motivation to start speaking publically and writing in ABSOLUTE opposition.  I would love to have a cup of coffee or tea with you on a Sunday afternoon, I’m sure it would be enjoyable…and quiet….lolol….smile

Yahoooooooo, mountain dew….....

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By Annie Reitano, July 25, 2007 at 7:31 pm Link to this comment

#89496 by willis on 7/25 at 2:19 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“If GOD were to give us all the good things in life and control our thoughts and wants then what would be the point of our existence. We might as well be robots.”

Hi again, Willis!

It is good to “see” you again!  wink  Regarding the above statement, is there any place in the bible that states that God supposedly gave Adam and Eve a choice of which tree to eat from because they were robots with no minds? 

You knew that I’d disagree with you, didn’t you?  My guess is that when you questioned God and decided things made more sense to you, it was because it is difficult to escape a deep brainwashing.  I am sure it’s worse than the assault on the body of going cold turkey off of heroine.  It’s embedded so deeply.  Because we are humans with the herd mentality, if you were in China or another country that doesn’t adhere to Christianity,  you would be able to shed the fantasy easier.  If a heroine addict keeps hanging around his drug provider and past friends who are using, his chances of leaving the drug behind is not good.  It’s the same scenario…very similar.

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By Jim H., July 25, 2007 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rev: tgambill Dr.of Div. Et al.

How did you come to believe such stuff?
Who told you about it?
Someone infected your brain with that infectious plague-like disease!
And you have been delusional like a cocaine addict, ever since!
Riding on a cloud, avoiding harsh reality, with a Myth for companionship!
Why do you, and, why should anyone else, believe, in your fairytale “God”?
Why do you believe something never proved?
If you only believe it because other fools do, and it comes from a “book” just like like “Little Orphan Annie”
Why don’t you insist “Little Orphan Annie” is also real? Aren’t they both unproven makebelieve fairytale characters, like your farcical “Jesus”? 

You ‘talk’ about an IMPOSSIBLE “BEGINNING”?  That never happened! 
You cite a filthy, slimy cesspool of sick pornography called “The “Bible” !
And ‘name’ a MAKEBELIEVE FAIRYTALE CREATOR! You call “God”?
Why?  There is not one iota of truth, or proof, to support that lie!
Can’t you admit you have been a patsy sap, brainwashed by other fools?
Wake up and “REPENT”?
If you have the minutest bit of ETHICAL, OR MORAL DECENCY left,
beneath the cancerous religion-delusion abscesses of your brain,
and would sincerely want to benefit mankind, you will ‘go’ “cold turkey”
get that ugly felonious monkey off your back, and do everything you
can to atone for all the minds you have destroyed and wasted with the
lies you have perpetrated, and promoted in behalf of those felonious
criminal charlatans who enslave, rape and rob children, and make
them into manipulated mindless robots like you, that your progeny will suffer from.
Those rotten rats will soon dominate the entire World with their “Theocracy”!
 
“God” is a conjecture, the “Universe” is fact!
Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!
If you postulate “God” always was? 
This trabslates to:
“The Universe always was!”
Because: “God” is conjecture!
The Universe is fact!

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

“they have no agenda and use a system of peer review.”

I would wager that many of them do.  Faith has everything to do with Science, as Faith and Science are not foes but friends. 

“Science and Religion are friends, not foes, in the common quest for knowledge.  Some people may find this surprising, for there’s a feeling throughout our society that religious belief is outmoded, or downright impossible, in a scientific age.  I don’t agree.  In fact, I’d go so far as to say that if people in this so called “scientific age” knew a bit more about science than many of them actually do, they’s find it easier to share my view.”

Physicist and theologian John Polkinghorne….

(John Polkinghorne, “Quarks, Chaos and Christianity”; (New York: Cross-road, 1994), xii.

“My road to atheism was paved by science…..but, ironically, so was my later journey to God”  Lee Srobel

It has everything to do with faith.  The Bible is what it is…the actual word of God.  People can take any book and distort it by taking one section or another and throwing a spin.  Those that do not know the Bible would not know any better. 

The only truth is the Bible, all others, including “re-written” Bibles are “fixed”...and inaccurate. 

Faith in the Living God that he will fulfill all his promises.  We are different from other living things, as they cannot commune with God in his image, free will and soul to soul.  We return to death as a result of sin.  Christ sets us free by beliving in him by faith even though we have not seen him or his miracles.  “Blessed are those that have not seen, yet they believe.”

http://mysite.verizon.net/cenpres1/Sermon_042306.htm

Christ was not symbolic…he lived just as it has been told of a virgin birth and was the living son of God. 

Do this in memory of me means to remember the promises he made before assending to his heavenly Father. 

We are not Gods or representations of Jesus.  We are under his care and he is our savior.  Each and every person has their own cross to bear and will be judged accordingly from Charles Manson to the Pope to Falwell….all will be judged as to their lives on Earth and faithfulness to the Father. 

The Case for a Creator, Lee Strobel

The Conspiracy to Silence the Son of God, Tal Brooke

The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel

Kingdom Come, by Allen Mitsuo Wakabayashi

Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics ask about the Christian Faith, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart

More than a Carpenter, Josh McDowell

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

“I take this parable to mean that if you actually have a loving heart and are controlled by good deeds then you will be saved even if you say you do not believe in GOD and Jesus for if you have a good heart and do good deeds then you are following the teaching of the Lord even if you do not believe.”
——————————————————————————-

Thank you.  I don’t mind being corrected, and I wouldn’t hesitate to change my mind should it prove to be inaccurate or wrong.  No expert here….smile 

What you say is mostly true.  However I must point out that having a good heart isn’t all that is required and certainly doing good works only won’t get one into Heaven.  If it did then God and Jesus were liars or lunatics.  Not being said in a disrepectful manner. Or, Jesus died for nothing on the cross.  One of the Rockefellers gave millions to the church falsely thinking that after all the evil that they have perpetrated this would also win him a seat in heaven.  This is a false thought and would not even give him a nod. 

http://www.creationists.org/goodworks.html#1

“What must I do to be saved?” Scripture gives this answer: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31) Christ invites sinners: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)

Our good works cannot qualify us for salvation. We cannot make amends for our evildoing by trying to balance it with good deeds. Our moral debt cannot be paid by doing good works, by penances or by performing religious rituals. Scripture teaches that the wages of sin is death, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. ((Romans 6:23; Hebrews 9:22)

Besides, Scripture states that the children of God are saved by His grace and not by their own good deeds. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8)
Many people entertain wrong ideas about the grace of God. They think that they merit grace by something they do.

We cannot change Gods plan or laws just because it is not what we want to believe.  He sets the rules as spelled out in the Bible, and it is clear.  As you said, other men use the Bible in every way they can to justify evil.  Satan knows the Bible better than any human on Earth. 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4610/whowillbesaved.html

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By Deborah Conner, July 25, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

tgambill on 7/24 writes:
To Deborah (re post #89160 by Deborah Conner on 7/24 at 12:28 pm):
These look like they represent a lot of reading material, and references etc….what is the issue and point? 
———————

These are books by ancient historians, academics who use original resources: archaeological remains, texts and fragments read in their original language; an informed perspective evaluating all available evidence in placing things in their original context. Unlike theologians, they have no agenda and use a system of peer review.

What has this to do with faith? Why bring it up here? Because I see people making the Bible a magic book, one useful for mind control, political agenda, meandering prophecy. The truth does set you free, at least from those shackles.

But faith? Meaning? The mysteries remain. We come out of death. We return to death. As do all living things. The Christ was symbolic of the unity—the sacred marriage, unus mundus, a thousand names—of spirit and matter. To look in each other’s eyes and see that in each other: incarnation. “Do this in memory of me.”

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By willis, July 25, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If GOD were to give us all the good things in life and control our thoughts and wants then what would be the point of our existence. We might as well be robots. He might as well make us like rocks: no thoughts and no free will to do anything. God loved us so much that he gave us a gift greater than anything on earth. He gave a mind to use and to think for ourself. But we are the ones who can not be trusted with this precious gift he gave us. Since the begining of time we have disobeyed him. Adam and Eve “had it made” in the garden of Eden. All they had to do is obey GOD. But did they obey? No they did not. They let Satan persude them to go against GOD. This is the same thing today. You have evil people (religous and nonreligous people) influencing others to do bad deeds. But we must use are free will to help people, not to hurt them. This is our test, GOD is not under test he is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory.

I believe the pupose of free will is so that those with good hearts and deeds will prove that they are worthy to come to GOD no matter what religion. For the true religion is the religion of love and all that is consistent with that. Those of us who have a bad heart and do evil things will fail the test and not be worthy of coming to GOD.

Adam and Eve spoiled it for the rest of us by not following what is good and Jesus came to save us from this sinful world by following his goodness. For if you have a good heart and do good works you are following Jesus even though you do not beleive in him. It is just like the story in the bible that talks about which son obeyed his father when the father asked the sons to plow the field. The Son that said to his father no I wont plow the field, but actually plowed the field was the one who obey his father. The one who said he would plow the field but did not plow it was the one who disobeyed his father (like the false prophets & priest do). I take this parable to mean that if you actually have a loving heart and are controlled by good deeds then you will be saved even if you say you do not believe in GOD and Jesus for if you have a good heart and do good deeds then you are following the teaching of the Lord even if you do not believe.

Willis

Hi Annie. Nice to Chat with you again. You have some tough questions and I too was a believer and then I started to question my beliefs like you and now I am at the point where things makes more sense to me and I see how man is the real problem not Religion or GOD. Man uses religion for his own selfish desires. But What GOD wants from us is just simplily for us to love one another. If we do that then we are loving him also. I understand you questioning why GOD has mad things like they are but that is like your 5 year old son questioning you on hy he can drive your car. There are somethings we aren’t smart enough to know about GOD but the importants things that GOD wants us to know “Like Loving one another”
we are smart enough to know that important aspect of life and this is what we will be judged on.


tgambill

I enjoy reading your comments. I agree with a lot of the things you say.

Willis

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

“The “Faith Based” religious fanatics! enslavers and child molesters, that George W. Bush is supporting, and paying for their legal protection!”

Yes, you are absolutly correct.  They have the most sinister plan ever devised put into place that would stagger the imagination.  However, this has virtually nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus Christ.  They are distorting the word, they are using the Bible in evil ways, and they will pay for this with their soul. 

Wow, guess what, I agree with this last post. You are correct.  For EXAMPLE…......

http://www.remnantofgod.org/ustashe.htm

and not stone unturned…....go figure…....this is not good nor is justified. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHEmWgW4qwg

The Vatican was a large part of Jasenovac’s death camp.  The book (if you can find one), Witness to Jasenovac’s Hell is a story of a death camp in WWII, Yugoslavia.  It is a hidden history, unknown to Western readers.  It was a place of torture and death for hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies.  Americans have no clue about his.  The Vatican is implicated….....

Again, this has nothing to do with Jesus, nor the Bible.  This is man using the truth and making it a lie.

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By Annie Reitano, July 25, 2007 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment

You: “This is why those in the days of the OT and NT lived the lives as told in the Bible so that we today would have an inside look into his character and commandments by eyewitness testimony.”

If the treatment of the Amelekites or the Egyptians is a look into God’s character, that god has all the character of Hitler.

You:“Our God given, dynamic nature is to change but love God and keep his commandments as we change.  Otherwise let your own kids run wild, use drugs, steal….or should they obey your rules and do the right thing from Love?”

It depends.  Do they have free will or not?  Are we forever “kids” or do we really have free will?  Saying we have free will then punishing us when we actually use it is disingenuous.

You:” We have solid information we just choose not to live by it….The Bible from the word of jesus.  Satan is the one toying with us……..not God.”

SOLID information?  You have to be kidding.  All we have is FAITH.  Faith is at the other end of the spectrum from solid.  Sure, we have the Bible.  We have also the Qu’ran, the Gita, and countless other words claiming to be from God, and because we rely on faith, NO REASON BESIDES FAITH to accept the Bible over another.  There’s nothing solid about it.

You: ” This particular Gospel whatever it is, is wrong.  Satan has been working overtime to defy God.  This Gospel did not belong to the word of God because it contradicts the word of God, as directed by Satanic influence.”

Allowing our eternal destiny to be influenced by some bad guy you could have stopped is not an act of love.  Any child can understand this.

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By Annie Reitano, July 25, 2007 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

Re: 89302 tgmanbill,

Hello there.  Sorry it’s taken me awhile to get back with that post.  Just logging on…can’t wait for the weekend when I can lazy around and just surf at will.  wink
You said: “God has always been here, as he said, “I am that I am” the universe was not here first.  Humans in God’s image does not mean appearances, but it means free will, love, kindness in the same way a father or mother would love their own child.”

Of course.  Any loving mother would talk to her child through other people.  Any loving father would provide only uncertainty regarding his very existence.  Any loving parent would allow mean uncles to provide bad advice that could kill the child.  Any loving father would advise his child to hate his earthly family. smile wink

Would you hide from your only child in a locked room for years and years, giving only scraps of knowledge about your existence, yet expecting them to worship and pray to and obey your fifth-hand, often bizarre mandates from afar? Of course not: because you’re an infinitely better parent than God. A good parent, or deity, does not conceal himself and vitally important knowledge from his children in order to play a game with them and arbitrarily “test their faith”; he simply and straightforwardly teaches.

It is reasonable and understandable to not force your child to obey you in all things; it is twisted, pointless, and absurd to expect your child to “seek” you for much of his life before he can even figure out what the rules are, or if they, or you, even exist. Come on, now….

You also stated: “Ones parents in a normal family, feels loved when their child makes the right decision to respect them from love not fear.”

By threatening a child with torture for making the “wrong” decision?  No fear there.  It’s like saying, “Here, take this delicious cookie.  By the way, if you don’t, I’m going to stick your face in the fan.  But it’s your decision and I’m giving you free will to choose having your face in a fan out of love.  So what if it’s a bizarre choice to impose in the first place?”  Hey, wouldn’t the choice to respect and love God have THAT MUCH MORE MEANING if the alternative were not unpleasant?

You said also: “He does require us to make a decision or reject his salvation while on Earth, and then this decision at the time of the Rapture will determine our destiny for life forever.  Many will not want this……..and will not get it.”

So he requires us to make a decision with such drastic consequences on faith (euphemism for uncertainty)?  Allowing conflicting information?  This is love?  This is respect for free will?  No, this is a mockery of free will.  Either God respects free will, in which case he must provide detailed and reliable information of his existence to all people in order to allow them to make the informed decision of whether or not to obey him and his commands, or he cares nothing at all for free will and just wants people to blindly accept his existence on faith and personal conviction alone (either because it amuses him to toy with people, or because he considers blind authoritarian power-worship a virtue). Either way, it is not possible for there to be a good, omniscient, omnipotent God (unless one considers genuine free will an evil thing and blind obedience to authority a good thing).

A choice made on faith alone is not a choice at all; it is a coinflip.

You: “
We have no excuse for being ignorant of his character, the story and his commandments”

Of course we have an excuse.  It’s called faith, which is a fancy term for uncertainty.  We don’t know which commandments are God’s or even whether God gave us commands at all.  Some guy said God told him to tell us some commands.  Some other guy said the same thing, but those are different.  We have no rational reason to accept one set of alleged commands over another, all because we are limited to uncertainty.


cont’d above

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By Jim H., July 25, 2007 at 8:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lock up all the ministers& priests!

They are:
The “Faith Based” religious fanatics! enslavers and child molesters, that George W. Bush is supporting, and paying for their legal protection! 
‘Religion’ is an evil that warps the mind and creates the type of ‘robot’ that can be directed or manipulated to perform or commit antisocial, or atrocious acts like voting for a criminal to be President, or committing a terrorist suicide slaughter! 
And, the charlatans who despoil the ‘pristine’ minds of innocents, and rob them of the mental acuity they were born with, are the lowest type of criminals, even lower than other types of child molesters!
And, as I have said: ‘They’ who do this children, are either “devious liars” indoctrinated “idiotic”
religious” “fanatics”.  How else to describe them?
What sensible, intelligent person does “not” DESPISE those who ‘brand’ and indoctrinate innocent children with mind altering lies for the purpose of maintaining some sort of control over them? Like sexually assaulting them?
They are clearly criminals?, and belong in jail!
THE WORST FORM OF CHILD ABUSE IS THE PLUNDERING OF THEIR MIND!
 
Time is evaporating the opportunity to awaken
the masses from their fairyland nightmare

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

I would give you a reading list as well, however, I suppose it would be left there….smile)

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By tgambill, July 25, 2007 at 12:28 am Link to this comment

God has always been here, as he said, “I am that I am” the universe was not here first.  Humans in God’s image does not mean appearances, but it means free will, love, kindness in the same way a father or mother would love their own child.  Ones parents in a normal family, feels loved when their child makes the right decision to respect them from love not fear.  There is also some fear that a child has of his father but also love and respect.  The child obeys the father from love by obeying the rules without the father forcing the issue.  You can “what if” or “trouble shoot” this to death, however this is the main point.  He does require us to make a decision or reject his salvation while on Earth, and then this decision at the time of the Rapture will determine our destiny for life forever.  Many will not want this……..and will not get it. 

Yes, we told to trust God as if he programmed us to love him, or did fantastic miracles to get obedience this would defeat the whole idea of unconditional love.  We have no excuse for being ignorant of his character, the story and his commandments.  This is why those in the days of the OT and NT lived the lives as told in the Bible so that we today would have an inside look into his character and commandments by eyewitness testimony. 

Its not cruel to hold us forever to our Earthly decisions without setting the example himself.  The sole purpose of sending his son to Earth and enduring all that we have, and more…plus, taking upon himself our sins and dying a horrible death instead of us.  All we have to do is believe this and take him as our savior.  This is because the OT days were as harsh as they were, man had no savior and defied God’s commandments all the way to the birth of Jesus.  Our God given, dynamic nature is to change but love God and keep his commandments as we change.  Otherwise let your own kids run wild, use drugs, steal….or should they obey your rules and do the right thing from Love?  We have solid information we just choose not to live by it….The Bible from the word of jesus.  Satan is the one toying with us……..not God. 

This particular Gospel whatever it is, is wrong.  Satan has been working overtime to defy God.  This Gospel did not belong to the word of God because it contradicts the word of God, as directed by Satanic influence.

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By Annie Reitano, July 24, 2007 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Thank you for the sentiment, tgmabill.  I appreciate it, I really do as I know where it comes from.  It wasn’t SOO long ago that I, too, had a great deal of compassion for the people who didn’t have the “truth” the way I did.  Looking back I feel like a complete and utter idiot, though.

As far as free will…bad subject with me. Many believe God wants us to make a decision to accept or reject a “salvation plan” during our life on Earth and then bases our eternal destiny on that decision.

Unless I’m misunderstanding this position, we are forced to rely on faith (= lack of knowledge) to make a decision, and then held eternally and irrevocably to that decision we had to make in relative ignorance during the tiny portion of our existence spent on Earth.

Since our God-given, dynamic nature thrives on change, how is it anything other than absurd and cruel to hold us forever to our Earthly decisions – when that was so small a part of our eternal existence and, if that weren’t enough, we had only faith as a basis?  Seems doubly sinister.  It’s obvious that having more solid information leads to a better choice.  Denying certainty while also attaching horrendous consequences would be akin to toying with us, more human foible than divine benevolence.

I think it’s the Gospel of Thomas or maybe Barnabus (well, somebody less famous):) that says we will get a chance to revisit that decision when we have better information.  Of course, this was tossed out by the Catholics who got to decide what’s in the Bible, so it must be false. 

Free will combined with conflicting information and potentially disastrous consequences add up to more of a trap than benevolent choice.  That’s why this can’t be the way a loving God who designed our nature would work.

Jim H.  Good choice in reading materials.  I learned a lot from the Gaylor’s FFRF.

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By Jim H., July 24, 2007 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
—Blaise Pascal,  (1623-1662)

THE “BIBLE”?
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition; and, therefore, without credibility, a salmagundi pornograpghy manual for torturers and, killers, and a tool for child molesters.

                                      FREE THOUGHT BOOK LIST

Rhymes for the Irreverent
by Yip Harburg
The great American lyricist who wrote “Over the Rainbow,”
“Paper Moon,” and Finian’s Rainbow delights
with freethinking, iconoclastic poetry. 

Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist
by Dan Barker
.
The Bible Tells Me So: The Bible, Female Sexuality and the Law
by Annie Laurie Gaylor

Women Without Superstition: “No Gods - No Masters”
Edited by Annie Laurie Gaylor

One Woman’s Fight
by Vashti McCollum
 
Lead Us Not Into Penn Station: 
by Anne Nicol Gaylor
 
American Infidel: Robert G. Ingersoll
by Orvin Larsen

Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children
by Dan Barker—

World Famous Food for Freethought. 
edited by Anne Nicol Gaylor

New And Selected Poems
Appleman, Philip
Freethought poetry. 

Darwin
Appleman, Philip, selected and edited by

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide For Young Skeptics
Barker, Dan

Founding Sisters and the Nineteenth Amendment
Clift, Eleanor

The God Delusion
Dawkins, Richard
 
The End of Faith
Harris, Sam.

Letter to a Christian Nation
Harris, Sam.

2000 Years of Disbelief
Haught, James A.
 
Freethinker: A History of American Secularism
Jacoby, Susan

Demon Lover: The Roots of Terrorism
Morgan, Robin
 
Fighting Words: A Toolkit for Combating The Religious Right
Morgan, Robin
.
Saturday’s Child
Morgan, Robin

The Age Of Reason
Paine, Thomas
 
Virginity or Death! And Other Social and Political Issues of Our Time
Pollitt, Katha.
 
First, You Cry
Rollin, Betty
 
Last Wish
Rollin, Betty

Why I Am Not A Christian
Russell, Bertrand
 
Uncle Tungsten: Memories of a Chemical Boyhood
Sacks, Oliver
 
The President of Good and Evil
Singer, Peter.
  -
Blind Faith
Sloan, Richard
 
Atheism: The Case Against God
Smith, George H.
 
Why Atheism?
Smith, George H

Eighty Years and More: Reminiscences, 1815-1897
Stanton, Elizabeth Cady
 
The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents (Washington To FDR)
Steiner, Franklin
 
A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom
White, Andrew D.
 
Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

I have shown you, is clearly a barbaric ass.  He has no love for anyone in particular and is most definitely a “respecter of persons” in particular, the Jews.

Annie, you have lost your faith and it’s understandable yet tragic that you have this feeling.  The Bible has never been proven wrong by science or Archeology or history.  On the contrary those that set out to disprove the Bible have all failed unless they started making up issues or mixing the scritures up taking them piecemeal to suit the purpose.  Satan is a deceiver and has anticipated or created additional religions, lies, and did it before the Bible was even written. 

The Bible is ahead of its time for those days and actually up to date scientifically for current days.  This is the miracle of the Bible.  In the KJV, nothing has been left out that was supposed to be there in the first place. 

Anyway, as you and I both know, I could provide you with tons of proof, not justifications but actual scientific and historical proof, however; due to your decision and free will it wouldn’t matter and would not accomplish the task of changing anything.  This is the beauty and also tragedy of having Free Will…..........

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By Annie Reitano, July 24, 2007 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

#89197 by tgambill on 7/24 at 3:15 pm
(47 comments total)

I disagree of course.  smile  The only clues we even have regarding ANYONE in the Bible are the Dead Sea Scrolls.  From these we know that a man named David existed and praised a God of the Jews.  But their are more praises in the Dead Sea Scrolls than Psalms has relayed to us and we’re not sure what his god’s name is.  There is one problem there.  Obviously, someone tampered with the Dead Sea Scrolls so as to use them for a growing religion.  More than likely, they used them to create more about the story.  Abraham had more stories in the Dead Sea Scrolls than what is written about him in the bible as well.  However, there is nowhere in history or otherwise to prove that the bible is accurate.  If it is, then you may as well say good night when you die because that god, as I have shown you, is clearly a barbaric ass.  He has no love for anyone in particular and is most definitely a “respecter of persons” in particular, the Jews.

If there were any proof of a god, you wouldn’t need the Bible and it would contradict itself all the more since it’s a book that demands your faith and NOT your knowledge.  You need faith in second, third and fourth hand hearsay about gods, monsters, demons, angels that are nice, angels of death, seven headed dragons, talking snakes and dancing satyrs *half man, half goat*.  I don’t have that kind of faith. 

I think men will always ask the question of how we got here.  They always have.  But instead of using science, they used what they had…stories that they embellished upon to keep people in line.  Man was primitive but has come a long way.

I am sure everyone would love to know for SURE how we got here.  I know I would love to believe in a powerful god who hears me, loves me and truly answers based on my faith.  But that has never happened and I had great faith.

And maybe Thomas Paine was right.  Maybe there is a god, but for sure, he’s not YHWH, Allah or Jesus.  These characters are not only copies of earlier gods, but they are full of flaws.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment

The reality of what is going on today…......it is not what people want to hear but it is the reality of our world. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/pike.htm


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-266501991043459541&q=planned

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

http://www.visquar.com/?gclid=CK2DuYOgwY0CFSMSEgodrh1ESw

You would think that out of all these published history help aids there would be some inaccuracies that could be proven.  However there is not one.  The Bible has never been proven inaccurate or incorrect.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

“Every word can be proven, unlike the Bible.  History bears it out…his words are true.”

Well, we will have to agree to disagree with this as biblical history in every case has been proven to be accurate. The aspects that the author takes is an opinion and complete misunderstanding of the character of God and his plan for the world, long story short.  The analsis could go round and round for hours, days and weeks with no agreement due to our different views and understandings.  I’m not one to judge, however, God is and will. 

One has to ask themselves, Is there a God or not?  If not, how did we get here?  Was it by the universe that has always been here and created all this by itself?  Did life start due to some soup created by a freak accident and combining of non-organic materials magically creating themselves and evolving?  This notion is blasted by scientific principles specifically the 2nd law of therodynmatics for starters.  Even Einstein came to the revelation or personal epiphany that there was a superior reasoning force or power.  He just couldn’t accept the Bibical account.  He basically proved the existance of this “force” by his Big Bang notion for formation of the Universe.  Anyway, it’s been interesting.  smile

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By Annie Reitano, July 24, 2007 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

No, he did not believe in the Devil, rather he is showing the ridiculousness of “devils” created all down through history to explain the bad things that go on in the world.  He sums it up at the end of the very page you gave: “In nature there are opposing forces. Some of the forces work for what man calls good; some for what he calls evil. Back of these forces our ancestors put will, intelligence and design. They could not believe that the good and evil came from the same being. So back of the good they put God; back of the evil, the Devil.”

It wouldn’t matter to me if Dr Spock wrote the previous post, though.  It was beautiful and true.  Every word can be proven, unlike the Bible.  History bears it out…his words are true.

I agree with you that people will find small parts of something and use it to sum up…but isn’t that exactly what people do with the Bible?  It is.  If it weren’t then they would be forced to admit that God created evil.  Isaiah 45:7, and that he put guile in the mouths of men.  He placed scabs on the haughty woman’s head and lay bare her vaginal parts for all to see, “Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover [lay bare-ASV] their secret parts.” (Isaiah 3:16-17)
—This is sexual harassment and molestation. “Secret parts” is poth, which means “hinged opening” (vagina). This is just one of many biblical instances in which women are debased, immorally or cavalierly treated as male property, subject to purchase, sale, abduction, and even sexual assault.

But there’s more.  Consider what David paid Saul for his wife?  200 Philistine foreskins. Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king’s son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.” (I Samuel 18:27)
Meanwhile, all is well with Solomon who bragged of over 1000 women. “But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites . . . And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.” (I Kings 11:1-3)

Notice that this lifestyle is never denounced by God, Jesus, or the biblical writers. Solomon, supposedly an ancestor of Jesus, was praised by Jesus: “all his glory” (Matthew 6:29), “wisdom of Solomon” (Matthew 12:42). Jesus compared himself (not so humbly) to Solomon’s greatness: “a greater than Solomon is here.” (Luke 11:31)

Let’s talk about the children that Jim H mentions.  What was their penalty for calling the prophet Elijah “baldy?” “And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.” (II Kings 2:23-24)


The god of the OT was written in barabaric fashion, could not possibly be a deity, much less a loving one.  He is masgonystic, infantacidal and genocidal.  He is written by men who re-create him with each age.  If he weren’t, you’d all be doing “gods” bidding and laying your wives vaginas bare for all to see—just for being haughty.  But by all means, help yourselves to as many women as you wish.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

This is the problem, we tend to find small parts that sum up and justify our points, but ignore the rest and not question it further. 

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

You might find this an interesting read and somewhat contrary to his beliefs or supporting material.  Apparently he believes in the Devil.  So, are we saying that there is a Devil and no God?  Why can some believe in Satan (Devil) and then think that there is no God or Jesus? 

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/devil.html

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll

This fellow had issues.  His first description of the Bible accruately describes Satan’s influence and works to discredit the Bible.  Most all wars especially those we have been involved with has been formented not by the Bible, but by those following a Luciferian theology.  Certainly in the OT God was pretty harsh.  God hates sin and at that time the wages of sin was death.  After Jesus came into the world, he stated that the only commandment was that we love one another.  Should man follow God’s direction when Jesus came into the world it would have been just like the second description of the Bible which is what it supports. 

People blame God for all their misfortunes and not the ones who are actually responsible.  The two that are responsible for these events are humans and their free will and Satans influence.  Bad things do happen to good people.  Satan works evil, we have choices of which side our souls favor.  To take away the “bad’ things this takes away the final judgment of the perpetrator and free will.  The “good” person has already formed a relationship with Jesus and therefore will be going to a much better place anyway…....this is only scratching the surface but we’re limited on the length.

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By Annie Reitano, July 24, 2007 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Thank you, Deborah.

This sums up my thoughts and even adds to them in a more articulate and reasonable fashion.  It’s long but worth the read.
by Robert G. Ingersoll
ON THE BIBLE:
This book is the enemy of freedom, the support of slavery. This book sowed the seeds of hatred in families and nations, fed the flames of war, and impoverished the world. This book is the breastwork of kings and tyrants—the enslaver of women and children. This book has corrupted parliaments and courts. This book has made colleges and universities the teachers of error and the haters of science. This book has filled Christendom with hateful, cruel, ignorant and warring sects. This book taught men to kill their fellows for religion’s sake. This book funded the Inquisition, invented the instruments of torture, built the dungeons in which the good and loving languished, forged the chains that rusted in their flesh, erected the scaffolds whereon they died. This book piled fagots about the feet of the just. This book drove reason from the minds of millions and filled the asylums with the insane.
This book has caused fathers and mothers to shed the blood of their babes. This book was the auction block on which the slave- mother stood when she was sold from her child. This book filled the sails of the slave-trader and made merchandise of human flesh. This book lighted the fires that burned “witches” and “wizards.” This book filled the darkness with ghouls and ghosts, and the bodies of men and women with devils. This book polluted the souls of men with the infamous dogma of eternal pain. This book made credulity the greatest of virtues, and investigation the greatest of crimes. This book filled nations with hermits, monks and nuns—with the pious and the useless. This book placed the ignorant and unclean saint above the philosopher and philanthropist. This book taught man to despise the joys of this life, that he might be happy in another—to waste this world for the sake of the next.
I attack this book because it is the enemy of human liberty—the greatest obstruction across the highway of human progress.
Let me ask the ministers one question: How can you be wicked enough to defend this book?
XII
THE REAL BIBLE.
For thousands of years men have been writing the real Bible, and it is being written from day to day, and it will never be finished while man has life. All the facts that we know, all the truly recorded events, all the discoveries and inventions, all the wonderful machines whose wheels and levers seem to think, all the poems, crystals from the brain, flowers from the heart, all the songs of love and joy, of smiles and tears, the great dramas of Imagination’s world, the wondrous paintings, miracles of form and color, of light and shade, the marvelous marbles that seem to live and breathe, the secrets told by rock and star, by dust and flower, by rain and snow, by frost and flame, by winding stream and desert sand, by mountain range and billowed sea.
All the wisdom that lengthens and ennobles life, all that avoids or cures disease, or conquers pain—all just and perfect laws and rules that guide and shape our lives, all thoughts that feed the flames of love the music that transfigures, enraptures and enthralls the victories of heart and brain, the miracles that hands have wrought, the deft and cunning hands of those who worked for wife and child, the histories of noble deeds, of brave and useful men, of faithful loving wives, of quenchless mother-love, of conflicts for the right, of sufferings for the truth, of all the best that all the men and women of the world have said, and thought and done through all the years.
These treasures of the heart and brain—these are the Sacred Scriptures of the human race.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

To Deborah,

These look like they represent a lot of reading material, and references etc….what is the issue and point?  There are as many countering and making attempts to discredit the Bible and the existence of Jesus, but to no avail.  These are just people that can judge the world only through a fourth dimensional capability.  Many are biased, others are sincere but, can’t see past our human frailities.  Many are prideful and determined to make sense of a universe that has 9+ dimensions and a who different set of principles and realities that we cannot even conceive of in our present human existence. 

It is coming to a head and will be revealed soon.

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By Deborah Conner, July 24, 2007 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“In the last analysis, the sacred and profane modes of being depend upon the different positions that man has conquered in the cosmos; hence they are of concern to both the philosopher and to anyone seeking to discover the possible dimensions of human existence.” ~Mircea Eliade

Seeking to discover.

Some seeking:

Athanassiadi, P. and M. Frede, eds.  Pagan Monotheism in Late Antiquity.  Oxford: 

Clarendon Press, 1999.

Bayliss, Richard.  Provincial Cilicia and the Archaeology of Temple Conversion.  BAR

International Series, no. 1281.  Oxford:  Archaeopress, 2004.

Bregman, Jay.  Synesius of Cyrene:  philosopher-bishop.  Berkeley:  University of

California Press, 1982.

Boyarin, Daniel.  Dying for God:  martyrdom and the making of Christianity and

Judaism.  Stanford, Calif.:  Stanford University Press, 1999.

Brown, Peter.  The Making of Late Antiquity.  Carl Newell Jackson Lectures.  Cambridge:   

Harvard UP, 1978.

__________.  “The rise and function of the holy man in late antiquity.” JRS 61 (1971),

80-101. 

__________.  The Cult of the Saints:  its rise and function in Latin Christianity. 

Chicago:  Chicago University Press, 1981.

__________.  Poverty and Leadership in the later Roman Empire.  Hanover, NH: 

University Press of New England, 2002.

Burkert, Walter.  Homo Necans:  The Anthropology of Ancient Greek Sacrificial Ritual

and Myth.  Berkeley:  University of California Press, 1983. 

____________.  Greek Religion. 

Chuvin, Pierre.  The Last of the Pagans.  Revealing antiquity 4.  Cambridge:  Harvard UP, 1990

Cohen, S.  From the Maccabees to the Mishnah.  Philadelphia:  Westminster Press, 1987.


Collins, John.  Between Athens and Jerusalem:  Jewish Identity in the Hellenistic Diaspora.  Grand Rapids, MI:  William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2000.


Lim, Richard.  “Christian Triumph and Controversy.”  Late Antiquity.  Bowersock, Brown, and Grabar, eds.  196-212.

MacMullen, R.  Christianizing the Roman Empire.  New Haven:  Yale University Press, 1984. 

___________.  Paganism in the Roman Empire.  New Haven:  Yale University Press, 1981. 

Meeks, W.  The First Urban Christians:  the social world of the Apostle Paul.  New Haven:  Yale University Press, 1983.

Momigliano, A.D. ed.  The Conflict between Paganism and Christianity in the fourth century;  essays.  Oxford-Warburg studies.  Oxford:  Clarendon Press, 1963.

  Price, S.R.F.  Rituals and power:  the Roman Imperial cult in Asia Minor.  Cambridge and New York:  Cambridge University Press, 1984.

__________.  Religions of the ancient Greeks.  Key themes in ancient history series. Cambridge and New York:  Cambridge University Press, 1999.

Rogers, G.M.  The Sacred Identity of Ephesos.  London, 1991.


Schaefer, Peter.  Judeophobia:  Attitudes Toward the Jews in the Ancient World. Cambridge:  Harvard UP, 1997.

Schwartz, Seth.  Imperialism and Jewish Society:  200 B.C.E. to 640 C.E.  Princeton: Princeton UP, 2001.

White, L. Michael.  Building God’s house in the Roman world:  architectural adaptation among pagans, Jews, and Christians.  The ASOR library of biblical and Near Eastern archaeology.  Baltimore, Md.:  Johns Hopkins University Press, 1990. 

Wilken, Robert L.  The Christians as the Romans Saw Them.  New Haven: Yale UP, 1984.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

prosyletizers????  Naw, wait a little ole minute here.  I wuz uh-thinking that this here prosyletizer was one of dem thar machines that a medicine man used to shrank a prostrate that had gotten too big….

lolol….smile)  naw you are uh-saying that I are one of them dar machines…..or sumptin else entirely.  smile))) 

This is too much fun, but, it is a serious subject. talking about your soul.  So, I’ll get serious.  Just had to have a little bit of fun anyway, since you are so serious about this.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

“In these days of the ‘Computer Age’ there is absolutely no excuse for not availing yourselves of the truth of my assertions herein contained! You are abettors of child molesters! You are supporting those who enslave! You are spreading the vicious ‘plague’’!  And it is time for you to renounce those charlatans, for their evil concoctions, and manipulations; and ‘get with’ REALITY!”

Oh, BTW, you and the “charlatans” have a lot in common and will actually be together.  They are doing it with deceit and you are doing it with words of fire for manipulations, two different approaches with the same goal in mind.  To lead those that seek truth, astray.  The Reality will absolutely slap you up side the head when the Trumphet sounds….

http://music.aol.com/video/goin-by-the-book/johnny-cash/1450227

smile)  Buckle up…....

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment

lolol…:)) You are like a little munchkin….You are on a train going through beautiful scenary, lakes, mountains, etc….and wearing a blindfold.  The only time that you take off the blindfold is when the train enters a tunnel in the side of the mountain.  smile)

The ones we are in agreement with, about the lying alleged church leaders (to sum it up), yes are using the Bible, however, this does not negate the very accurate and true word of God in any way.  It is how they are using it to deceive people. 

Now, go back to sleep.

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

Well the Pope alleges to have this wee whittle room where only he and God can converse and I guess have tea and cookies together.  Religion is being used to control just as Jim H. said.  This I can agree with him on.  The other, well you probably read my responses…..

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By Jim H., July 24, 2007 at 7:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 89027,89021

Rev. tgambill

You Quote: “The “Bible” is the ‘BOOK’ that all those perverted “Priests”—- use to ‘con’ innocents out of their virginity! “

Then you say: “With this, we are in agreement”. (!)

Then , you say: “You are completely off track—-.”(!)

Which I say, Is a mere example of the pschyotic delusion that warps the lying minds of “Godists”!

To all you ‘delusional’ liars; infected, condoners, and prosyletizers: when will you cease lyingand despoiling innocen children and wake from that indoctrinated insanity?

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
—Blaise Pascal,  (1623-1662)

THE “BIBLE”?
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: “A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition” - and therefore, a book with no credibility! 

RELIGION IS THE PUTRID PUKE OF DISTORTED MINDS!
There is no excuse for intelligent people to be so ignorant of facts about the charlatan fantasies and make-believe pretenses of religion, that works to undermine the true Democratic principles and unifying influences of our Democratic Society. To promote, propagate, profligate or publish the same pretentious and pompous falsehoods that are the evil tools used by Fallwell, Baker, Haggard, the Pope, and their ilk to brainwash, indoctrinate, brand, and subjugate innocent children and fools for the purpose of using them to gain ever more money, power, and divisive influence, is tantamount to supporting pimping, and prostitution.
And because those charlatans use their evil schemes and lies to control, and enslave those misled
‘bovid-like’ droves by rendering them ‘virtual’ robots that do their bidding; they are criminals, and
you; by supporting them, are a criminal cohort, equally guilty of the crimes they commit against
humanity, those fools, and the children they sexually molest!
THE WORST FORM OF CHILD ABUSE IS WARPING OF THE MIND!
To all you liars; or infected, condoners, and prosyletizers: when will you cease lying? or, wake from that mesmerized state?
In these days of the ‘Computer Age’ there is absolutely no excuse for not availing yourselves of the truth of my assertions herein contained! You are abettors of child molesters! You are supporting those who enslave!
You are spreading the vicious ‘plague’‘!  And it is time for you to renounce those charlatans, for their evil concoctions, and manipulations; and ‘get with’ REALITY!


Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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By Annie Reitano, July 24, 2007 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

Hi tgaBill.

Well, no, my position is solid on that one.  According to the American Heritage Dictionary, faith is defined as

“Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.”

But I agree with you about the Talmud.  I think I had misunderstood you in the other post.  Yes, it’s hellatious garbage.  Part ii I think it is, says that if you’re not a Jew you will be boiled in hot excrement for all eternity.  I have a copy of that and the Koran somewhere.  I just moved here three weeks ago.  smile  I will find them and my Bibles.. so we can discuss better.  It’s hard to get a copy of the Tanakh..I am not even sure a person can.  Anyway, the flame alphabet that is read in the synogogues is believed to be the very words of god written to Jews in fire.  That’s why it can’t be touched by anyone but???  You guessed it, a Rabbi!  Oh some people are just more righteous !!!

I am back to work today but I will check in from time to time.  Have a good one!  smile

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By tgambill, July 24, 2007 at 1:04 am Link to this comment

The Talmund is worse than the Koran.  The Koran is bad enough.  It has everything to do with the Bible and Christians. 


http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

The Jewish Scribes claim the Talmud is partly a collection of traditions Moses gave them in oral form. These had not yet been written down in Jesus’ time. Christ condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible.
————————————————————————-

Second and third hand hearsay from a personal God? 

From eyewitnesses and from God himself.  That’s just about as personal as one can get.  smile


It is man that has distorted Gods’ word.  This is why he inspired the Bible.  Man is thick headed and prideful. The Bible specifically warns us about being Prideful.  I see that you have lost your faith, and it may not return.  I on the other hand, will retain my faith, even if means death.  I am sure of this. 

God made us in his Image.  We keep on trying to fit him into our “comfort box”, or Comfort Zone so to speak.  We’ll just have to agree to disagree and move on…...Given the signs of the times it doesn’t seem far off. 

Faith does not necessarily mean a lack of knowledge for us.  It means that we believe not because we see, or because we see fantastic miracles, or supernatural happenings we believe because of love and trust in Gods word.  There is a difference.  The Bible is the instruction booklet…...

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By Annie Reitano, July 24, 2007 at 12:44 am Link to this comment

“It’s not that people are waking up, it’s that they are being deceived as to the truth nature of God and his plans for our future as foretold in Revelation.  It will be obvious in the near future, according to the already fulfilled propheses but no one knows exactly.  There is a reason for this. 

Islam is growing and is an enemy to democracy and Christainity as the Talmund is an enemy to both.”

I am not sure I understand the above comment as the Talmud is the writings of Jewish Rabbis in the first century and has nothing to do with Christianity. 

As far as Revelation, again, you have to take it on faith (which equals a lack of knowledge) that a God who wants to have a personal relationship with you, revealed through a man you never knew (John on Patmos) all of the future that was to come.  And he wrapped it all up so impersonally and added mythological creatures, allegories and other vague symbols to make it that much harder to descern.  I can’t think of anything more vague or impersonal that that.  But he loves you and doesn’t want you to burn in hell.  Something doesn’t add up with that.  Second and third hand hearsay from a personal God? 

I am not making light.  I was once very devout.  I talked to my imaginary friend in the car, walking the dog,—-“he” was my best friend.  Or so I thought. It took me a year to stop crying over the fact that I was as duped as we think Islam is.  I missed my “friend”.  Now, I have come to terms with that feeling that I had always questioned but pushed to the back of my mind.  We are here and we die.  This is it.  But it’s beautiful when you think of it because it has made me want to do more with every minute of my life instead of inserting the magic Jesus into the blanks.

I believe that saying “Satan has blinded so and so” is a cop out.  When we can’t see what’s coming next, suddenly we’re all prophets.  But if you still go by the Bible, everyone is blind.  Everyone works and plays on the Sabbath Day that was changed without any authority figure from the Bible saying to do this.  Everyone sees what they want to see.  If they didn’t, there wouldn’t be more than 20 thousand denominations based on the confusing words of one book.  What I am getting at is that we have always made god in our image and not the other way around.  If we could put that part of our pride aside and just admit that we don’t know…we just plain don’t know,. there wouldn’t be nearly as much heartache, medical science could work it’s magic as could forensic science and all the other sciences, and there would be less wars.  I am a dreamer.  Man is too thick headed and too greedy.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment

The “Bible” is the ‘BOOK’ that all those perverted “Priests” and others swear on, thrive upon; and use to ‘con’ innocents out of their virginity! It is used to perpetuate the lies that brainwash children and fools into believing they are born “evil sinners” with “original sin” and must rely on the good graces of the charlatans to make them holy and restore them to a “state of grace”!  (via sex acts?) “

With this, we are in agreement.  This is not the Bible it is the evil souls using the Bible but claiming to be men of God.  Their souls will be judged and judged very very harshly.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

“Richard Dawkins won the very prestigious Reader’s Digest award this year for his sales and writing abilities about the book “The God Delusion”. “

I understand where you are coming from and certainly can’t judge.  However, I must respond from my point of view.  It’s not that people are waking up, it’s that they are being deceived as to the truth nature of God and his plans for our future as foretold in Revelation.  It will be obvious in the near future, according to the already fulfilled propheses but no one knows exactly.  There is a reason for this. 

Islam is growing and is an enemy to democracy and Christainity as the Talmund is an enemy to both.  The propoents of the New World Order are supported by a Luciferian theology that is called the New Age Religion.  Teihard de Chardin, is the Father of Spiritual Globalism.  It is moving fast.  There will be a one World Government, one world religion, and a despotic government that will make Hitler and any named dictator in history pale in comparison. 

Nelson Glueck, a specialist in ancient literature, did an exhaustive study of archeology and concluded: “It can be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. 

Bible scholar Donald J. Wiseman also concluded, “The geography of Bible lands and visible remains of antiquity were gradually recorded until today more than 25,000 sites within this region and dating to Old Testament times in their broadest sense, have been located”. 

Bible scholar William F. Albright, concluded after a comprehensive study, said, “Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details and has brought increased recognition of the Bible as a source of history.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

“But that doesn’t stop the Fundamentalists from making a guess and then claiming it as truth.”

Absolutely, and they are wrong to be doing this.  They are doing it for scare tactics, money, power, pride, and deceit….

Neither the Holy Spirit nor the risen Lord knows when God will command the Rapture and become known. In the meantime, Fundamentalist are reading it wrong and bringing discredit to the truth.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment

Jimmy H. there is no discussing with you.  You are completely off track and for some reason are emotional and deceitful.  You’ve done much research but the research was done prudently, it was done to find any little way to twist and turn words to come to a completely false “declaration” not conclusion.  I can only imagine why?  Maybe Annie was right, you were “abused” by some clergyman, You lost a loved one to death and blame God, therefore on personal mission to discredit God for revenge, or, you could be one of the Luciferian paid by the Carnegie or Rockefeller foundation to spread more of their lies…..and deceit.  Don’t know, but, I’m not wasting my time with your attitude or trival nonsense.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 9:16 pm Link to this comment

#88982 by tgambill on 7/23 at 6:49 pm
(30 comments total)

I am sorry, I didn’t notice you had made two posts until it popped into my email.

Two students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, carried out a shooting rampage, killing 12 students and a teacher, as well as wounding 24 others, before committing suicide>  The religious right has made a meal out of the story about the girl who was asked if she believed in “GOD” not Jesus, as for the other 11 we don’t know.  However, one who was wounded and left a quadriplegic is an atheist.  But you miraculously don’t hear much about him.

I wish it were as simple as you say it is. But the fact is, as an immensely important work for Muslims and anyone interested in studying world religions, The Koran, the holy scripture of Islam, is the record of Muhammad’s teaching. Like the Bible, the influence of the Koran on the world is incalculable.However, the RELIGIOUS best seller list for this year goes like this:
1. NIV Holy Bible
2. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and Origin of Sacred Texts
3. God Is Not Great
4. 90 Minutes in Heaven
5. The Crusades
6. Your Best Life Now
7. The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth
8. The Purpose-Driven Life
9. The Holy Bible (King James Version)
10. Jesus of Nazareth
11. The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Understanding Catholicism
12. New Revised Standard Version of the Holy Bible
13. Tao Te Ching
14. My Descent Into Death
15. Devotions to Leave You Smiling

And these only come AFTER the mass market for the Koran in paperback.  You can get the Koran on CD as well for about 7 bucks, I believe.  I think it’s obvious that curiosity over our perceived enemies (Islam) is growing as well as the awakening of people who are really curious to find out if the bible they’ve always studied is true or not.

Richard Dawkins won the very prestigious Reader’s Digest award this year for his sales and writing abilities about the book “The God Delusion”.  People are starting to wake up.  I believe John Lennon was right when he stated that Christianity will die out just as other religions and messiahs have before him.  However, I also believe that it’s in the nature of people to create a new one.  It is my sincere hope that the next “viewpoint on the future” will be based peacefully off of scienitific fact instead of unprovable gods and monsters.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

And Islam agrees with that. Only for them it’s the 12th Imam. 

“THE END IS NEAR - CHRIST IS COMING BACK SOON—It’s a scare tactic designed to push people into a choice they don’t want or need to make. Even those who believe the Bible can recognise that the Bible does not say when the end of the world will be. But that doesn’t stop the Fundamentalists from making a guess and then claiming it as truth. When Jerusalem was destroyed in 73 AD, Fundamentalists said it was the end of the world. When the clock struck midnight in the year 1000 AD they said it was the end of the world. When World War I broke out they said it was the end of the world. When World War II broke out they said it again. Now, coming up because it’s the new Millenium with “new religious wars” they are saying it even louder.  It is the same with Islam and the Fundamentalist Shi’ite sect.  They want their land, they want ultimate control so they are scaring people with the whole “12th Imam” story—yet again!

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By Jim H., July 23, 2007 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 88982  
Rev: tgambill
You say: “The Bible is—-”. (GARBAGE)

Re: 88953
Annie Reitano
You say: ” ...THE BIBLE IS—-”. (GARBAGE) 

                THE “BIBLE”?
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: “A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition” - and therefore, a book with no credibility! 
                  Yet,
Some people swear by the “Bible”!  Brains are not prerequisite to idiotic assuptions!  Ask yourself: How do BILLIONS of people survive minus the teachings of that ‘book’?  “How did people survive, and build great “Civilizations"and “Wonders” that we can’t duplicate, prior to the accumulation of the ‘tales’ and writings, or ‘so called’ “teachings” of the “Bible”? The “Bible” is the ‘BOOK’ that all those perverted “Priests” and others swear on, thrive upon; and use to
‘con’ innocents out of their virginity! It is used to perpetuate the lies that brainwash children and fools into believing they are born “evil sinners” with “original sin” and must rely on the good graces of the charlatans to make them holy and restore them to a “state of grace”!  (via sex acts?)
These teachings and the indoctrination’s go back thousands of years, so don’t be surprised about some who have been brainwashed, proselytizing; as the alternative is to acknowledge that they have been fools!
Apparently, for the sake of ones ego and sanity it is easier to live the great big lie than to face the reality that acknowledges idiocy!  This is one of the means by which this criminality survives! And “Religions” prosper!

IT’S LIKE A COCAINE INJECTION! 
The vast majority of “religious” people were: forced into their ‘belief’! They had no say in the matter, they were imposed upon, brainwashed, and indoctrinated when innocent and defenseless! They were not old enough, wise enough, or informed enough to make a decision, or to determine the value of the information passed to them by elders who, they were taught to obey and were not able to question or contradict! And, generation, upon generation the same methods have been perpetually used and promoted by a big gang of thieves as their victimizing schemes to rob people of their pristine mental facilities and their ability to determine fact from fiction! 
Apparently, for the sake of ones ego, and sanity, it is easier to live the great big lie, than to face the reality that acknowledges idiocy!  This is one of the means by which this criminality survives!
And “Religions” prosper!

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

It is estimated that by the year 2025 Islam will be the major relgion in all of Europe.

I wouldn’t take any bets that it will be around by then….the end days are coming close.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment

well, it’s pretty simple.  The Bible is best seller in virtually every country.  The disciples died for their faith, as did the young girl in Columbine.  She was asked if she believed in Jesus and she said, yes, then was shot for that. The others were spared. 

We could go round and round, me spouting off the verses, and supporting my “side” and you countering with the known retorts that most all of us has wondered at one time or other before conversion.  It simply comes down to a personal decision until the
Rapture happens and that will set off a chain of events that will shake the world.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

#88966 by tgambill on 7/23 at 6:16 pm
(28 comments total)

There’s nothing clear cut that says which woman Jesus saw first and if she were alone, etc.  If she weren’t alone, who’s to say who saw him first?

As far as apologists believing the Bible must be right because it’s a best seller, think about the Qur’an and what a seller it is today in the M.E.  It is estimated that by the year 2025 Islam will be the major relgion in all of Europe.  The rate it’s growing at is alarming, to say the least. 

Also, you said: “Secondly, it is recorded that practically all of the disciples died ugly deaths.”

Recorded by who(m)?  I haven’t seen any record of it that is objective at all.
Ever hear the phrase, “You can dish it out, but you can’t take it”? ( not you persoanlly, but Christians in general).  That’s what’s happening when Chrisitans use the statement of persecution. They have been on the attack for years now, trying to deny rights to homosexuals, trying to outlaw abortions, trying to keep women from obtaining equal rights, and trying to impose their own morals - many of them non-biblical - on the rest of society. Non-Fundamentalists are finally fighting back by speaking out against their campaigns, their media onslaughts, and their mistaken notions of truth, and the Christians don’t like it very much. They can dish it out, but they can’t take it. So when people of good conscience stand up for their rights, Christians cry “foul!” - they claim they are being persecuted.

christians see this “persecution” as biblical proof of being on God’s side. It’s not. Their so-called persecution is merely the rest of society defending itself from their attacks. Their so-called persecution is merely being called to the carpet for their actions. Their so-called persecution comes in the form of editorials that don’t paint them in a glowing light or legislation that goes against their made-truths. If they can’t get their schools to allow them to pray to their God during class time, they claim they are being attacked. What would happen if Buddhists and Muslims tried to get the same special rights? Christians would be beside themselves in anger.

This is not the persecution mentioned in the Bible. The leaders of the Christian Coalition are not being hung on crosses (Philippians 2:8). The leaders of the Family Research Council are not being stoned to death (Acts 7:59). The leaders of Focus on the Family are not being thrown to the lions (Daniel 6:16). And yet these people have the gall to claim they are being persecuted in God’s name. They are not. All they have to worry about is someone calling them bad names and denying them their request for favouritism.

The only place you see hear of real persecution is the Bible, and that is a subjective study at BEST.  At worst, of course, it’s an evil book of war.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

which woman do you think saw Jesus first?  It’s confusing, isn’t it?

He saw Mary first, of course.  Not confusing at all.  It will eventually come down to us agreeing to disagree.  I know it’s not a myth. If it were a myth, it would not be a best seller even as of today. 

Secondly, it is recorded that practically all of the disciples died ugly deaths.  These folks would not have died for a myth.  Also, the beauty of it is, that it’s free will and each person has an opportunity to make their decision. 


http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AD/knowingjesuschrist.htm

http://www.behindthebadge.net/articles/a121.html

http://www.uniquebiblestudy.com/topic92.htm

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

#88950 by tgambill on 7/23 at 5:33 pm
(27 comments total)

“The background of King James does not effect the translations.”

I don’t agree.  I think that the background is very imperative if someone is going to be the authority of re-translating a supposed “holy book”.  KJ left out verses from the original Vulgate just as those who wrote the NIV left out phrases here and there. Martin Luther rid the book of seven other books and attempted at ridding the Bible of the book of James because of the part regarding “faith without works being dead”.  That wasn’t in keeping with his new agenda with the reformation nor how he wanted people to view Jesus.  He wanted them to see Jesus as all gracious and the one way ticket to heaven.  But he negated to look further IMO.  There are other things that indicate that Jesus is not the only way to heaven.

Of course, now we’re getting into the politics behind the Bible and it’s historicity and the games played that people are finally catching up with.  Once studied, it is very clear that the Bible has been tampered with, mulled over, re-written and politicized by many people.  It cannot possibly be the inerrant word of a diety.

For all of the Koran’s flaws, and there are MANY, the main theme has kept it’s integrity.  However, you could always argue that no one would dare tamper with the Koran as they would be killed.  smile

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

Ok here’s a start…THE BIBLE IS ERROR FREE

Perfect. Infallible. Undeniable. All of these are used to defend the so-called source of the Fundamentalist’s made-truth - the Bible. It might be, if you can accept the convoluted reasoning of its Fundamentalist defenders. But short of accepting it on blind faith, the Bible has lots of problems to overcome. Still, it’s up to each person to decide for himself or herself. But even if it is error free, it doesn’t support Fundamentalists. In fact, if the Bible is absolutely infallible, it only serves to prove them wrong. They say God is opposed to abortion, but the Bible isn’t. They say God is opposed to drinking alcohol, but the Bible isn’t. They say the God is opposed to sex before marriage, but the Bible isn’t. They say God is opposed to smoking, but the Bible isn’t. And, they say God is opposed to slavery (and most of us would agree), and yet in Leviticus 25:44 we see that indeed the Bible supports it.

To be perfect is something man can’t understand and that’s why there are so many problems with the Bible.  We do know that perfection cannot be when there are two different versions of a story nor if one thing is said at one time and another at a different time.  I don’t know how you can get away from the following two verses.

“God is not like men, who lie; He is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; He speaks and it is done.” - Numbers 23:19

“So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened.” - Exodus 32:14

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

Hi again!

LOL Right off the bat I see a major problem with these apologists brushing the obvious under the carpet, so to speak. For example they say: :For example, one witness in a court case might testify that he saw two people at a crime scene, Jake and Sam, while another witness may only testify to seeing Sam. These statements are not contradictory. In fact, in a court of law, these statements could be considered complementary. This is the nature of many of the alleged contradictions in the Bible. For instance, in Matthew, we read that Jesus met two blind men. In Mark and Luke, we only read about one blind man meeting Jesus. In Matthew and Mark, we read that Jesus went to pray alone three times in the Garden of Gethsemane, whereas, in Luke, we read that Jesus went alone to pray on one occasion. Under legal rules of evidence and the Law of Non-contraction, these aren’t contradictory scriptures, and yet they make all of the infamous lists.:

But they’re going on the reference that men wrote the Bible (which is true) but they seem to be forgetting that the very source for Christian belief is that God wrote the Bible THROUGH them.  It may stand in a court of law for men to make such vague statements of supposed truth, but for it to be considered “inerrant” in a court of Law or otherwise is a big NO.  If God can’t collaberate perfectly through men, he isn’t a diety.  He is imperfect and confusing the issues at hand.  According to the Bible, God is not the author of confusion….you could have fooled me.  wink  These four different versions of Jesus are extremely confusing when taken at face value.  Also, Matthew whose real name was Levi, wrote the LAST gospel around 68 A.D., yet someone put his testament in the Bible first…hmmm I think MEN are at it again…..

Oh yea, which woman do you think saw Jesus first?  It’s confusing, isn’t it?

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

The background of King James does not effect the translations.  I agree with you on all the versions past the KJV, they have surely convoluted the
Word very cleverly.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

#88940 by tgambill on 7/23 at 5:15 pm
(26 comments total)

“A5: First, I don’t think that the “return” in v17 is talking about the Ascension, but something much sooner. If it is the Ascension, then clearly the bible is in contradiction. Though this may be a reasonable inference, it is not a necessary inference.”

Do you know Hebrew, or have a Strong’s concordance?  If you do, then therein lies your contradiction because in fact, Jesus was talking about the ascension being “some time away as of yet” and that she needn’t hold onto him because he would be seeing her again.

The main problem I have with the NIV bible is that it has taken out whole sentences and phrases from the KJV which was translated, of course, by King James himself, a reported homosexual.  I don’t get into all of that past stuff though, as like the bible, it’s hearsay.  Still most Christians cling to the KJV as the authority Bible and yet it is very different than the first translated Vulgate Bible from the early RCC.

Okay, I am going to take time to look at all these MILLIONS of links..wink  and respond to them as best as I can.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

Okay, sure he showed himself first to some woman…BUT when she went to touch him he said “touch me not, for have not yet ascended unto the Father” Right?  But then he had no problems telling doubting Thomas to thrust his hand into his side and fell his nail marks…“see Thomas that it is me.”..

It is not only you, it is me as well.  I’ve been there.  There are different reports or testimony. 

MT 28:8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

LK 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. [38] He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? [39] Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

JN 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ “

A5: First, I don’t think that the “return” in v17 is talking about the Ascension, but something much sooner. If it is the Ascension, then clearly the bible is in contradiction. Though this may be a reasonable inference, it is not a necessary inference.

There are two possible solutions to this problem. First, though the NIV doesn’t say “touch” but “hold on to,” Jesus prohibition may have been to keep her from hanging onto him preventing him from other duties he knew he had to attend. His words may mean that his next destination was to “return” to God the Father. The second possible solution is a favorite speculation of mine. John 20:17 describes the earliest appearance of Jesus Christ after his resurrection. His resurrection body may have had physical characteristics (i.e. radiation, electrical charge) as a result of being resurrected that had not yet dissipated at this point in time. This would make “touch” imprudent at this moment, but quite safe a little later. Perhaps this was what Jesus meant when he said he was returning to God the Father.  He had visited Hell to proclaim that he had risen from the grave.  The difference between being resurrected from the grave and raised from the dead can be discerned when you read the story about Lazarus how they had to “unwrap” him, unlike Jesus leaving the burial clothing behind. 

In the meantime….

http://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/contradictions.htm
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-contradictions.htm

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

#88897 by tgambill on 7/23 at 1:46 pm
(25 comments total)

Oh wow!  I should have put this all into one post.  Anyway, regarding this post, yes, I used to be a missionary for those in prison and on Death Row.  But the contradictions and inaccuracies of translations became to valid and obvious for me to brush it aside “because God knows best” anymore.  I started to realise that the atheists, although I couldn’t stand them, were really making more points that were TRUE.  Since I always prodded myself to seek the truth no matter what, I eventually began to let go of it all as just mythology.  Talking serpents, dancing satyrs, and seven headed dragons are all mythological creatures.  All the miracles supposedly done and prayers answered because of faith have never been seen today.
So, yes, I know my Bible VERY well.  Too well for my liking, to be honest.  I would much rather have been raised atheist but since I was spoon-fed this stuff that is meant to terrorize and hold mankind enslaved to myth, I may as well use it.

You mentioned that God was different in the OT because there was no way to redeem mankind as of yet.  I take it, you don’t believe God is all-knowing?  Most Christians do and that’s where the argument falls apart.  If he is all knowing then he would have known that he created faulty creatures who he then blames for his own mistakes, he drowns them, then feels remorse for having done it, then he gets so fed up he decides to come down and let his OT enemies beat him, spit on him and kill him in a most babaric way so that he can save the world.  The two problems I see right off regarding that story is that, one: he didn’t die.  He went “to sleep” for three days.  Two: he won’t save the world.  Right now the score is not being settled at all so he is losing again.  All of that, just to lose again. 

It’s defnitiely myth.  People use scare tactics to try and make you think that “this is happening, so it must be fulfillment of the scriptures…!”, but Islam does the same as well and with just as much validity.  For example,
Christ’s return has often been used, In fact, the first prophecy of the earth’s demise was proven false within a hundred years of its utterance. In Luke 21:25-32 Christ tells his followers about the end of the world and his pending return from heaven and then tells them that their generation would not pass away before these things happened. That was 2002 years ago.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

Oh!  And I forgot to mention the mysoginistic part…lol I need to wake up here.

Okay, sure he showed himself first to some woman…BUT when she went to touch him he said “touch me not, for have not yet ascended unto the Father”  Right?  But then he had no problems telling doubting Thomas to thrust his hand into his side and fell his nail marks…“see Thomas that it is me.”..

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

#88904 by tgambill on 7/23 at 2:03 pm
(25 comments total)

‘When Christ died and rose, the first person who saw him was a woman.  Women back then and even now in the Middle East in some places are second class citizens.  They would not have given the “honor” of seeing Jesus after his return to a woman but to one of the disciples…...’

Hi again, I had to take a sabbatical and go and take a nap…lol I may have to leave for L.A. tomorrow and I get exhausted from traveling.

Anyway, which woman saw Jesus first? Each gospel has a different account.  Mary Magdalene?  Mary and Clopas’ wife Mary, the cousin of Jesus?  Or Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James?  Mary Magdalen, the “other Mary” and Salome? 

More inaccuracies in a book that is supposed to corroborate with it’s writers, but more importantly, it’s supposed to be inerrent and the very Word of God.  How could a diety mess it up so badly?  Looks again, like men’s finger prints are all over this.  Also, notice in each gospel how the time of day is different.  One says at dusk, the other says at early dawn, etc.  More contradicitons.  I think apologists say “well these are four people’s different viewpoints, etc.”..  And I think that’s true, they were people, and people make mistakes and see thing differently that other people.  But a GOD actually making these same inconsistencies through people is by the very nature of the gesture, fallible.
Or more likely, it was just a book written for men.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment

When Christ died and rose, the first person who saw him was a woman.  Women back then and even now in the Middle East in some places are second class citizens.  They would not have given the “honor” of seeing Jesus after his return to a woman but to one of the disciples…...

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm unequivocally the fact that the jews were faithful in their transcription of biblical manuscripts. 

http://www.centuryone.com/0063-2.html

http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/sp2001/deadsp01.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/library.html

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

I will attempt to answer your concerns and you certainly bring to the table very good points.  For my own education and study I will try to answer them. 

I see however, that you have read the Bible regardless of your beliefs or distrust of the Bible.  I find that curious.  However, I would venture a guess that this is not unusual for your since you are a curious and fair person that you would read it to hear the Bible’s point of view.  You have some that read strictly to find points of contention and no intention to be neutral.  Many of the contradictions rise from just not knowing the whole story and the Character of God as revealed in the Bible.  The parables are all explained and are given to make a point.  Those that are not in the spirit will not understand the parables, those that are in the spirit do. 

There is a significant difference in the God of the OT due to the fact that God hated sin, and there was no way for man to be redeemed yet.  The birth of Christ changed everything as it was intended.  The OT was very harsh for this reason.  God can do what his will is for a bigger reason.  The books don’t disagree they show different aspects of the same events.  If they were constructed they would have agreed…..more proof that they were inspired by God but written by the hand of man.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

#88885 by tgambill on 7/23 at 1:03 pm
(23 comments total)

Hi again!  I strenuously disagree that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself.  *but then you knew I would*. smile

The first five books were written by Jews who absolutely DO NOT nor have they ever agreed with the writings of the New Testament.  Also, the only scripts we have that any of the Bible existed at all are the Dead Sea Scrolls which don’t corroborate the stories regarding David nor Abraham…and those are the original scripts from that day. 

The Bible has been translated and re-translated with every generation so that if fits the times of that generation’s beliefs.  But I can give you some contradictions if you like.  We can start in Exodus if you like.  One of the ten commandments given by “god” was “thou shalt not kill”...yet, in the very next chapter, (21) god demands killing for different reasons.  The Law for killing went on and on in the OT.  I.e. “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whoseoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.” (Exodus 35:2) For the chilling application of this law, see Numbers 15:32-36, where a man who picked up sticks on the sabbath was stoned, “and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”

That’s a huge contradiction right there.  Jesus said to turn the other cheek and God said:
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.—Exodus 12:29


The sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.—Jeremiah 12:12

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.—Deuteronomy 13:15
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.—Mark 9:47-48
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father—Genesis 19:32
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.—2 John 7

And I will corrupt thy seed and spread dung upon thy face.  Malachi 2:3

The two hardly correlate with one another.  There are a thousand more.  They’re on almost every page and show how much MAN’S hands were at work here.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

the Bible is different than most other books. This is why it got my attention many many years ago.  It was composed by man, but, its unity reveals the hand of the Almighty God.  Sure enough.  It was written over a period of 1500 years by more than 40 different human authors.  They came from many different backgrounds; professions and gender.  They wrote in different places and in three different languages.  (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek).  It deals with controversial subjects, and still there are no contradictions.  The so called contradications as I’ve read them here, are made up and shows they don’t know the story or they are purposely constructing the confusions.  All 40 authors are linked and the original writings were only translated not constructed.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

#88867 by tgambill on 7/23 at 11:35 am
(22 comments total)

Yea, I have a thinking mind and I doubt it.  wink  It sounds like a lot of scare tactics to me.  A lot of people like to see themselves talk.  Nostradamus was the same….prophets who speak some truth but are unclear in other parts.  My dad always told me that a half truth was still a whole lie.

Atheists are the pariah…they are the minority in the world.  Even among the religious, the come behind those dreaded homosexuals in the polls taken on “who would you rather have for a political candidate?”.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

#88868 by tgambill on 7/23 at 11:37 am
(22 comments total)

“interesting point….. Take into account; Ants were not made in the image of God, nor did Jesus die so that ants could live.  Ants do not have free will to love God or hate God.  Big big difference…..”

Who said that any god died for men?  Men said that.  I don’t always believe them, especially when politics and religion are in the picture. The two are not so different…:)

And, if you liken our ability to understand any god to that of an ant’s ability to understand humans, then it still makes sense that we don’t try to understand “god” at all.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment

interesting point…..smile  Take into account; Ants were not made in the image of God, nor did Jesus die so that ants could live.  Ants do not have free will to love God or hate God.  Big big difference…..

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

August 15, 1871 - Now, can any thinking person doubt that the intrigue now going on in the near Middle and far East is designed to accomplish that satanic objective? Albert Pike himself foretold all this in a statement he made to Mazzini. Pike stated that after World War III is ended; those who will aspire to undisputed world domination will provoke the greatest social cataclysm the world has ever known. Quoting his own words taken from the letter he wrote to Mazzini and which letter is now catalogued in the British Museum in London, England; he said:
 
“We shall unleash the nihilists and the atheists and we shall provoke a great social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to all nations the effect of absolute atheism; the origins of savagery and of most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the people will be forced to defend themselves against the world minority of the world revolutionaries and will exterminate those destroyers of civilization and the multitudes disillusioned with Christianity whose spirits will be from that moment without direction and leadership and anxious for an ideal, but without knowledge where to send its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer brought finally out into public view. A manifestation which will result from a general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and Atheism; both ! conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

“they, are all doomed to the servitude of criminal charlatan imberciles who shall soon control the entire earth! “

The ones who are preparing to “rule the earth” as you say are not going to be Christians…...take the actual quotes for a hint…..

1760 - Satanic plot was launched when it first came into existence under the name “Illuminati.” This Illuminati was organized by one Adam Weishaupt, born a Jew, who was converted to Catholicism and became a Catholic priest, and then, at the behest of the then newly organized House of Rothschild, defected and organized the Illuminati.  Naturally, the Rothschilds financed that operation and every war since then, beginning with the French Revolution, has been promoted by the Illuminati operating under various names and guises.

1770 -  Professional money lenders, and recently organized House of Rothschild, retained Weishaupt, to revise and modernize the age-old Protocols of Zionism, which from the outset, was designed to give the Synagogue of Satan, so named by Jesus Christ, ultimate world domination so they could impose the Luciferian ideology upon what would remain of the human race after the final social cataclysm by use of satanic despotism.

1 May 1776 - Illuminati, allegedly - (Adam Weishaupt-Founder, Jesuit Priest and Freemason)  Illuminati name translated to “bearers of the light” - Lumen
derived from Lucifer, ancient “angel of light”.  Adam Weishaupt was a Jesuit-trained professor of canon law, teaching in Engelstock University, when he defected from Christianity to embrace the luciferian conspiracy. 

Weishaupt completed his task May 1, 1776.

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

#88860 by tgambill on 7/23 at 11:08 am
(19 comments total)

“Our understanding of our world, is similar to how an ant sees if from his perspective.  We think that we understand this and that….but, when you take into account the different dimensions and the vastness of God’s creation we are like the ants while on Earth.”

If our understanding of Gods is as minimal as the ant’s understanding of us, then doesn’t it seem more logical to not consider them at all?  I would bet that ants don’t consider us humans and certainly don’t deify us.  smile

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

jimmyboy….you should take a chair and keep up those meds.  Lol…Mensa are smart people, but they put their bloomers on the same way we do.  They are limited to their four dimensional understanding of the universe.  God has 9-11 different dimensions in our same universe.  This is why one should take any scientists theories with a grain of salt.  Their IQ is not signifcant in the overall picture.  No human has ever created a universe and never will.  Evolution not only contradicts the Bible but it also contradicts some basic laws of science.  The second law of thermodynamics implies that left to itself, everything tends to become less ordered not more ordered or complex.  Things grow old, run down and eventually die or decay.  However, it comes down to choice about what people want to believe.  I agree with you about the Charlatans…..they distort religion and use it to control and deceive.  For example this article for one.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

God takes care of both trival and big events when it’s in his will.  Also those who are praying may not have a close relationship with God, or, it’s just not his will that the request be granted in the way that they want.  Our understanding of our world, is similar to how an ant sees if from his perspective.  We think that we understand this and that….but, when you take into account the different dimensions and the vastness of God’s creation we are like the ants while on Earth.  God sets the rules and we can’t establish criteria that we want.  God sets the criteria and the rules.  You are right about so few will make it to heaven.  This is not a failure, as Jesus has clearly said this very thing…...that few will cross over.  it’s not a loss, as it will happen anyway, but fewer humans will make that journey.  The NWO crowd in fact has a different plan that I’ve followed for a long time.  Their plan is to Depopulate the Earth using various methods….do a google

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/population.htm


http://nwo-warning.tripod.com/haarp2.htm

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

People who believe that God would do trivial things while seemingly ignoring terrible suffering make God look bad, so to counteract that, you have to invent these “higher purposes” to make suffering noble.

Early humans used to explain storms as the wrath of God (intelligent destruction? ), but now we understand the mechanics of weather and understand that these are just part of nature with no will.  Perhaps suffering is the same, and what we thought God was intervening on (like storms or blessing your steamed beets) He isn’t. wink

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

Your use of the word “right” was suspect….smile  The pain is part of the process.

http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/sufferng.htm#12

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

#88847 by tgambill on 7/23 at 9:54 am
(16 comments total) RE:
“God performs miracles, but; they are performed or not performed according to his will and other factors as well.  The Amputees will in time be healed, however, their lives as amputees may be used for other purposes until that healing day comes when Jesus returns.”


Well, first of all I have an ethical issue with ‘selective intervention’.  Second, do you think an omnipotent God could find a way to accomplish those “other purposes” without requiring such pain?  I bet I could, and I’m not even a deity.  You could, too. Just think about it and you will find that you can come up with much better ideas for easing the deep suffering of ALL people by most any means.  The above assumes that God is limited in his abilities OR that’s just your interpretation.  Not sure. 

I am going to have to take some time to read all of that link.

I am actually from Detroit but now live in a small town on the outskirts.  smile  So, I am a northerner.

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 11:01 am Link to this comment

The movie I’m still watching. I’ve gotten tied up this weekend.  Reference to H. well, you have a very good point.  Just this past week a Priest was caught messing around with a “MALE Stripper” and it wasn’t in the confessional box….or whatever they call it.  The last I heard 30% were pedofiles…..as the vatican, if I’m not mistaken recently paid out a hugh settlement to victims.  The deceitful lives of Preachers, Priests, politicians who claim to be “born Again” hint hint….reflects on God and Jesus who are not part of these deceivers lives.  Satan is a very clever Entity.

  http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archivebohemiangrove.html

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

I will make a wager that you are from the south.  smile  I am from N.C. but live in the North right now.  In any case, I reviewed the link and found it interesting.  I like to read what is written for or against the Christian religion.  I didn’t get my name Thomas for nothing.  lol..  It seems that the site appearing to be “neutral” is discrediting the notion of Jesus and God in subtle ways.  The notion about God healing Amputees is a good example. 

“remember what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane where Peter hacked off the ear of a Roman soldier. Jesus not only healed the ear, but he also commanded Peter to put down his sword.”
———————————————————————
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29 - NIV)

God performs miracles, but; they are performed or not performed according to his will and other factors as well.  The Amputees will in time be healed, however, their lives as amputees may be used for other purposes until that healing day comes when Jesus returns.

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By Jimh., July 23, 2007 at 9:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 88789, 88790

Rev: tgambill  

You say: “He has a mission to specifically downplay—- Jesus christ.”(?)

I say: Idiot! perhaps this below, may change your deluded deduction!
(Now don’t spatter spittle all over your Alb!)
———————————————————————————————————-
In response to my recent query about Mensa’s interest or actions relating to ‘Religion’, 
Mensa replied:
“Mensa, as an organisation has no official position on religion, politics or any other subject” (?)
============================
I sent back this comment:
In view of Mensa’s stated aims included in “Mensa’s Goals”
“—-to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity;(?)  (Subject?)
(and) “to encourage research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of intelligence;”(?) (Subject?)
ERGO:
How can Mensa ‘reasonably’ ignore the destructive influences to “human intelligence”
caused by the World wide propagation of such horrendous lies and absurdly false assertions
that perpetuate the delusional mental imbalance of the religiously indoctrinated which is effected
  by criminal charlatans Fallwell, Baker, Haggard, the Pope, and their ilk, who enslave the masses
in their ceasless efforts to replace Democracy with the Theocratic domination of the entire World!

Certainly denial, or aloofness to this, the most serious threat to “human intelligence” on the face
of the earth, is an outright contradiction of your, “Mensa’s goals” wherein they say:
“—-to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity;(?)
(and) “to encourage research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of intelligence;”(?)

How does Mensa, the epitome of intelligensia of the world, live with the knowledge they,
by there ignorance, or ignoring this, the most destructive force to the “intelligence” of
“humanity”, are, thereby living a lie of cold hearted, unconcerned negation!

If the intellectual, or intelligent elites of the world, will not make any effort to prevent the destruction
of humanity’s intelligence, by their: “research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of (false) intelligence”, we, and they, are all doomed to the servitude of criminal charlatan imberciles who
shall soon control the entire earth!

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By Annie Reitano, July 23, 2007 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

#88790 by tgambill on 7/23 at 1:04 am
(14 comments total)

Hi tgambill,

You sure seem like a right “nice fellow”.  smile  Jim H and I have had “words” before because he can’t seem to control his ad hominem attacks, and his caps lock.  wink  He also has a vendetta against priests and pederasts (who doesn’t) but it just may be that he was abused. I have seen a tremendous amount of derision from him regarding priests and pedophiles in the past.  And while I really wouldn’t want to pour salt in that wound, I also don’t want to continue being the butt end of his anger.  So, maybe you and I can continue in a human fashion…lol

Check out this link (this one is actually my favourite..) and let me know your thoughts on it or any comments—just when you get the time.  I appreciate it.  smile http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com

I realise the title is trite, but it’s NOT going to be offensive to you in anyway.  It’s actually a serious page that explores a lot of the sayings of Jesus that people use today.

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By Jim H., July 23, 2007 at 9:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 88733

Rev. Reitano

You say: “Who says the “onus” is on me to prove—-existence?

I say: anyone who asserts ‘something’ is true, is responsible for supporting the ASSERTION! by demonstrating PROOF! 

Ergo: The onus (stigma) of validity or “proof” is on the presenter of a theory, or imagined object! 

Everyone who has finished Grammer School (Did you?) knows this to be a BASIC FACT!

You are making absurd WILD assertions that some conjectured fairytale character was NOT A MAKEBELIEVE FAIRYTALE figment of someone’s imagination, but, was a ‘real’ ‘entity’!  And, there is no ‘logical’ reasoning, nor evidence to support your stupid stance or argument that you are ever able to provide!

I say: PROVE IT!

It is ridiculous, and absurd to ask someone to convince ‘you’ (“PROVE”) why ‘you’ ‘should ‘not’ believe in the unbelievable!  I therefore implied, if, you don’t require someone to “prove” Santa Claus, or Mickey Mouse, or Porky Pig, or a “Creator God” never existed, why should you, and, do you, ask for “proof” that some other NEVER PROVEN ‘entity’ never existed? What explains your irrational inconsistancy?

About the rest? Is that what you call what you “Clergy” do to those innocent children?

You say: “Where is that carved into stone?” (?)  You can’t be that old!  We now writeon paper!

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 2:04 am Link to this comment

talking to you is not worth my effort.  you are the one afraid to die, and certainly afraid of the truth.  You are also sent here to mislead the posters here.  I have to smile at your extreme spoken words that really can’t be countered simply because they lack any substance.  hmmmmm, bery bery clever…lolol….

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By tgambill, July 23, 2007 at 2:00 am Link to this comment

Annie,

The H fellow, is paid to discredit and mislead any notion of jesus Christ.  Whether you or I believe it or not is not the issue.  He/She has a mission to specifically downplay not Budda, hindu, or any other religion, but only Jesus christ.  This mission is in itself a suspect to the importance of the life of jesus.  jim H. is afraid, scared, and very much like a child afraid of the dark.  You are, in my opinion, the only one that is neutal.  I am a hard corp Christian, and no longer open minded as I was before.

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By Annie Reitano, July 22, 2007 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

#88705 by Jim H. on 7/22 at 2:51 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

88569

‘Annie Reitano
The onus (stigma) of validity or “proof” is on the presenter of a theory, or imagined object!

If you weren’t delusionally psychotic you would think rationallly! 

‘YOU’ MUST PROVE ‘HE’ EXISTED!”

Who says the “onus” is on me to prove his existence?  Where is that carved into stone? 

You need to learn to read, anyway.  If you go back and proof read, you will see that I stated that there’s no proof whether he existed or NOT.  So, your ranting really does indicate that you were rump ranged by a priest and that’s not my fault. 

Pay attention and think with your head and not your emotions.

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By Jim H., July 22, 2007 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

88569


Annie Reitano
The onus (stigma) of validity or “proof” is on the presenter of a theory, or imagined object!

If you weren’t delusionally psychotic you would think rationallly! 

‘YOU’ MUST PROVE ‘HE’ EXISTED!

Do you always search for proof that conjectured entities are not fact?

What proof have you found thus far, that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Porky Pig, a “Creator God”, Little Orphan Annie and Sandy her dog never lived? Or, “The Old Lady Who Lived In A Shoe” never lived?

You say: “—-show me—-Jesus never lived”.    “There is no Merlin, either—-” 

So!  When you say “There is no Merlin, either—-”

Aren’t you admitting NEITHER ever existed, despite what some fools deduce from storybook fairytales?

Why do you accept that “Merlin” never existed, then refuse to admit your “Jesus” never existed?

I say: You have no proof that such a MAN ever existed, absolutely NONE! 

So,  until you can come up with more than your delusional imagination or opinion, about a make believe, fairytale farce that criminal charlatans use for proslytizing, I suggest you ought to stop making a fool of yourself by pretending a lie, is true.

You mention: “—the Bible—-”(?)

I am ashamed even to writethe title!  That disgraceful ‘tool’ of those charlatan rats, is used to brainwash, brand, mesmerize, hypnotize, and indoctrinate innocent, defenseless children and fools, then give them an inferiority complex by telling them they are defective, because they carry an “original sin”, whatever that means, which they were born with, and must kneel and plea for forgiveness and ‘grace’ which often is granted only after suffering an atrocious sex act by a pedophile priest or minister.

That filthy, slimy, cesspool ‘book’, a pornographic, how-to manual for religious fanatic bigot killers, describes the evil means to “torture”, “pillory” and “stone to death” progeny, “heretics” and nonbelievers! 
Only fools and criminals even acknowledge it’s existence!     

In Luigi Cascioli’s “The Fables of Christ” the author states: After the recent discovery of Essene documents at Kimberth Qumran (Palestine) it has been PROVEN that Jesus was (falsified) the result of falsifiers in the second century!

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
Is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

Ask your ‘confessor’ for “PROOF” that your fairytales “Jesus” once lived, and, is NOT A FAIRYTALE CHARACTER!

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By tgambill, July 22, 2007 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

Yes, the preachers, and many other “Christian” leaders are not leaders at all.  They pretend for control of people, money, politics and power over the masses.  They preach on Sunday, while “messing” around with a Deacon’s wife on Monday.  There is no question that man has distorted the truth, and this comes from another supernatural force that is Anti-christ and has been an influencing power for generations. 

Many Scientists believe in God, many don’t, and mainly for the reasons that I mentioned.  There has been a concerted effort orchestrated by the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderburg, et al to take our constitution out of the system and Jesus from the Schools…....

The older Religions existed however, it’s not the age of the Religion it is who has inspired the religion.  Satan is real and he is a deceiver.  There are more Dimensions than we can even conceive of in our four dimensional ability to understand our own existence.  This is why most of Science is changing, improving, restructuring mainly because they don’t have a clue.  smile)  I agree with you about the “miracle water”; “green prayer hankerchief’s’ lolol…:)  the healing TV programs are all crock…....the Rev, on this site is lying or deceiving folks and certainly fits the category of a False Prophet.  These types will feel the full wrath of God….they have no idea what awaits them and there is nothing they can do about it, except repent, which they won’t do.

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By Annie Reitano, July 21, 2007 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

#88592 by tgambill on 7/21 at 9:48 pm
(11 comments total)

Well, in Surah 4 of the Qur’an it does talk about Jesus having not died, but rather taken up to Allah. However, there’s no mention of anyone having really met him.  Afterall, the Qur’an was written 400 years after Christianity had taken root.  Clearly, it was another ploy of greed and the lust of territorial pride that caused Mohammed to embellish a sequel.

Anyway, regarding paid, lying scientists,—I find that to be an interesting statement in lieu of the paid, lying charlatan ministers that abound with something to gain—money.  Scientists have nothing to gain by lying, especially in light of the fact that almost half of all Scientists in America believe in God.

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By tgambill, July 21, 2007 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment

Relative to HAARP, the paid scientist will lie just like the current administration and Clinton’s administation lied about the Balkans…....Global Warming, UFO’s and other BS claims.  This is a long story as I have studied each and even though linked, are made up of half truths, lies and exaggerations.  I will answer about the Jesus issue later, as there are many historians in his day and even later that makes references to Jesus, including the Koran…...

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By Annie Reitano, July 21, 2007 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

We have got to get out of these conspiracy theories and into reality for today, tgmbill. People have been saying this kind of stuff for every generation that passes.  Someone will try and find reason for Jesus’ return on a cloud.  Ellen G White turned a pretty penny making a religion out of it and writing books that are still revered TODAY…even though she was wrong (of course) all FIVE TIMES!!  As you know, for every action, there’s an equal and opposing reaction.  On and on da da dum…:)

“In September 1995, a book entitled Angels Don’t Play This HAARP: Advances in Tesla Technology by Nick Begich, Jr., son of the late Congressman Nick Begich, claimed that the project in its present stage could be used for “geophysical warfare”. The HAARP has subsequently become a target for those who have suggested that it could be used to test the ability “to deliver very large amount of energy, comparable to a nuclear bomb, anywhere on earth”, “changing weather patterns”, “blocking all global communications”, “disrupting human mental processes” and mind control, and “x-raying the earth.” These claims are generally disregarded by scientists and those involved with the project as being completely baseless.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequenc...
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/gen.html

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By Annie Reitano, July 21, 2007 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

#88521 by Jim H. on 7/21 at 1:39 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Please show me proof that a man named Jesus never lived.  There is no Merlin, either, but you cannot deny that people writethese magicians into history.  Read a bible….you will see that a man named Jesus was not only written into history pages, but that he supposedly did these miracles.

You have no proof that such a MAN never existed…absolutely NONE.  However, how he was written, as a god/son diety is not true, I agree with that.  And the text itself is a very testamnent of that truth.

However, your physics is in need of fine tuning.  Sure mass, index, blah blah,.  First show me how you know that the man did not exist.

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By tgambill, July 21, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

part of the big game and the New World Order that is part of the what we are talking about. 

http://www.earthpulse.com/src/category.asp?catid=1

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By tgambill, July 21, 2007 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

smile)  you are in for a big surprise.  One that puts your very soul at stake.  One that you will unfortunately lose.  Yes, faith is a big part of it, however, the historical accounts are unmistakeable and I shall be getting back to you shortly.  I’ve a busy day today but this is one subject that I look forward to talking about.  Your fight is a lost cause in the end and there’s nothing you can do about it.

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By Jim H., July 21, 2007 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:88546

Rev. tgambill


You say: “Your—(words)—won’t change the truth—-”(?)

I say: What “truth”?  What “war”?  What “denial”? What “soul”? ‘What’ are you “frightened” of? Did you lose your “Teddy Bear”?      Are you related to Bush?

Are you a comedian, or, just an ordinary fool, slave to a charlatan’s criminal scheme to keep you under control and use you to shill for him, and help him find more victims for his debauchery?  Or, perhaps ‘you’ are the debaucher?

Your talk about a “Holy Spirit” places you right smack in the middle of that “Ponzi-racketeering, criminal “Godist” empire of criminal chilld molesters, at one level or another, so, you are either the indoctrinating ‘wolf’, or the brainless, brainwashed mesmerized, indoctrinated, flunky sheep, who has lost all his ‘marbles’ to a pschycotic delusion, and must now rely totally on the whims and fancies of your paedophile confessor for knowledge about the fairytale world he deigns you live in.

Little wonder you are frightened!  No wonder you need help!

But, without knowing the specifics of the “it” in your question: “—-frightening isn’t ‘it’......?”  It impossible to give an answer! 

But, maybe ‘this’ will help:

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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By tgambill, July 21, 2007 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

lolol….Jim H.  You do make my day.  Your rantings won’t change the truth, your denial of the truth and war that you have within your own soul is enlightening and testimony of the power of the Holy Spirit and you don’t even know it.  smile I’ll be getting back to you and share the truth as it does exist.  It’s kind of frightening isn’t it…...?

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By Jim H., July 21, 2007 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:88449

Annie Reitano

You say: “I realise the “Jesus never existed” part was really reaching.(?) 
We have no evidence whatsoever whether he existed or not.(?) 

I say: that statement is not true! 

Anyone who was supposed to have performed phenominal ‘Magic’ Tricks, ie.“MIRACLES”! would have been of enormous interest to everyone who ever recorded anything at all, of those times, so, ‘if’ there was a ‘person’ of that name, and reputation, ‘he’ MOST CERTAINLY would have BEEN RECORDED!
Reason, and common sense dictates a determination that “Jesus” is like “Santa Claus”, the “Tooth Fairy, Mickey Mouse, Little Orphan Annie, and her dog “Sandy”, ALL ‘makebelieve’ ‘fairytale’ ‘chacters’!
And, it is not “reaching” to ‘refuse’ to believe in something that is merely based on some ‘charlatan’s conjectured assertion!

After saying: “—-no evidence—-he existed—-? 

You then say: ” I personally ‘believe’ that Jesus was a revolutionary—-” (?)

I say: Your indoctrinating delusion is apparent!

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

Report this

By Jim H., July 21, 2007 at 8:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 88320

Rev: tgambill

You say: “—-you are—-off track”.

I say: you are right, I haven’t bet on the ‘ponies’ or been to track in twenty years! Did you miss me?

You say: “He—-protest’s too much”.(?)

I say: You, no doubt are one of those delusionally psychotic religious fanatically “Godist” enslaved robot accepters of the ponzi-racketeering criminal charlatan’s conception of the ‘scheme of things’!

Otherwise, you too, would be so alarmed at the overwhelming sneaky evil destructive force the “Godist” fanatics are guilty of employing to eviscerate our once great Democratic Nation, and bring it and the rest of Humanity under their THEOCRATIC control, that ‘you’ too would realize no words are strong enough to express the disgusting horror of such evil felonious criminal actions!

Our forefathers left foreign lands because of the same type of tyrannical Dictator-like Theocratic domination that we are now experiencing as a result of that War-time deserter Religious-fanatical Muslim now in the White House who rules this land like a Theocratic Tsar, with an iron fist! 

And his “Faith-Based” taxpayer-money aid, to those charlatans who don’t pay taxes on all the money they steal from little kids, is being used to proslytize, and spread their infectious plague-like disease “Godism” so they can enslave more innocents and fools and convert them to shills to help the propagation of their criminal enterprize with the primary purpose of eventually dominating Our Country, and the rest of Humanlty through a theocratically, Religiouslly, controlled World!

You mention: “—the Bible—-”(?)

I am ashamed even to writethe title!  That disgraceful ‘tool’ of those charlatan rats, is used to brainwash, brand, mesmerize, hypnotize, and indoctrinate innocent, defenseless children and fools, then give them an inferiority complex by telling them they are defective, because they carry an “original sin”, whatever that means, which they were born with, and must kneel and plea for forgiveness and ‘grace’ which often is granted only after suffering an atrocious sex act by a paedophile priest or minister.

That filthy, slimy, cesspool ‘book’, a pornographic, how-to manual for religious fanatic bigot killers, describes the evil means to “torture”, “pillory” and “stone to death” progeny, “heritics” and non-nbelievers! 
Only fools an criminals even acknowledge it’s existance!     

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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By Annie Reitano, July 21, 2007 at 1:35 am Link to this comment

#88445 by tgambill on 7/21 at 12:11 am
(7 comments total)

I appreciate you taking the time to watch it. Now when you get into the politics you will find some of it to be true and the rest kind of a conspiracy theory thing like I had mentioned before.  I would still like your feedback.

I realise the “Jesus never existed” part was really reaching.  We have no evidence whatsoever whether he existed or not.  And as far as the astrology goes, I don’t know but for me the most interesting part was about the other gods before Jesus who had all of the same stamps.  That part is accurate.  Jesus really was a copy of many copies.  Why these men rebelled and raised Jesus up to be a messiah isn’t clear in history because there’s no evidence that he even existed.  Jews believe it was politics to tick the hierarchy off—and it did.  I personally believe that Jesus was a revolutionary that was needed at the time.  But his sayings are riddled with the holes and could only be the work of men.  It’s confusing work at best.  But it has worked marvelously for holding people hostage to fear.  It’s likely that they needed Jesus to keep their own little following in line.

What a shame.  I fully believe that I will die one day and not face anything.  The one thing we KNOW about death is that no one ever comes back.  That’s pretty evident to me that there’s no “other side”.  Jesus himself supposedly spoke about a rich man who begged Lazarus to go and tell his loved ones about the torment he was in.  As if a drop of water would quench the flames that he was speaking of, but I digress.  My point is that if the rich man could send message to his loved ones, why hasn’t anyone done that since?  And why did Jesus allegedly say so many things that have never come to pass.  In essence, if he did exist and say these things, he lied.  More than likely, it was the writers who lied for their own agenda.

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By tgambill, July 21, 2007 at 1:11 am Link to this comment

Annie,

I briefly view the video.  I will watch the whole video soon.  From what I gleened, the beginning is very much off track about Jesus.  Its the same story, “give truth and gain confidence, then distort with lies that are now accepted as truth”.  The beginning about Jesus is very clever in deceiving non-believers into believing that Jesus was not who he said he was.  Secondly, the film transitioned into the New World Order which from what I watched is exactly correct and I can support most all it’s assertions with facts and news reports that go back to WWI and up to this past week. 

What I’m telling you is based on me being a skeptic most of my life and after experience and much questioning finding the truth.  The smoking gun at its best. 

I will writemore detail about the movie soon.

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By JimH., July 20, 2007 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 88320

Rev: tgambill

You say: “—-you are—-off track”.

I say: you are right, I haven’t bet on the ‘ponies’ or been to track in twenty years! Did you miss me?

You say: “He—-protest’s too much”.(?)

I say: You, no doubt are one of those delusionally psychotic religious fanatically “Godist” enslaved robot accepters of the ponzi-racketeering criminal charlatan’s conception of the ‘scheme of things’!

Otherwise, you too, would be so alarmed at the overwhelming sneaky evil destructive force the “Godist” fanatics are guilty of employing to eviscerate our once great Democratic Nation, and bring it and the rest of Humanity under their THEOCRATIC control, that ‘you’ too would realize no words are strong enough to express the disgusting horror of such evil felonious criminal actions!

Our forefathers left foreign lands because of the same type of tyrannical Dictator-like Theocratic domination that we are now experiencing as a result of that War-time deserter Religious-fanatical Muslim now in the White House who rules this land like a Theocratic Tsar, with an iron fist! 

And his “Faith-Based” taxpayer-money aid, to those charlatans who don’t pay taxes on all the money they steal from little kids, is being used to proslytize, and spread their infectious plague-like disease “Godism” so they can enslave more innocents and fools and convert them to shills to help the propagation of their criminal enterprize with the primary purpose of eventually dominating Our Country, and the rest of Humanlty through a theocratically, Religiouslly, controlled World!

You mention: “—the Bible—-”(?)

I am ashamed even to writethe title!  That disgraceful ‘tool’ of those charlatan rats, is used to brainwash, brand, mesmerize, hypnotize, and indoctrinate innocent, defenseless children and fools, then give them an inferiority complex by telling them they are defective, because they carry an “original sin”, whatever that means, which they were born with, and must kneel and plea for forgiveness and ‘grace’ which often is granted only after an atrocious sex act by a paedophile priest or minister.

That filthy, slimy, cesspool ‘book’, a pornographic, how-to manual for religious fanatic bigot killers describes the evil means to “torture”, “pillory” and “stone to death” “heritics” and non-nbelievers! 
Only fools an criminals even acknowledge it’s existance!     

Mass/energy never disappear
Ever were ever here!
J.H. 5/8/07
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
JH 8/29/06

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