My dear Magic Pudding.

Like Reit I am puzzled by your equivocations.

On January 1 you stated, in part, supporting your belief in a deity.“I’ve sufficient evidence.”
I challenged you to produce this evidence.
In your latest offering you state quite clearly you have NO proof beyond a vague feeling. Well that is something along the lines of most believers with a variation in the intensity of their imagined feelings.
This is hardly something that is likely to impress an atheist.

So what is it?  You do, or do not, have the claimed evidence. You do or do not have a reason to be a believer. Or do you just want to stir the pudding?

Mister Mange.

What for?  Why would we define something that would be most supreme to us that we “might call a deity?”  You were the one who brought a deity into the picture.  Why don’t you stop playing word games and just tell us your version.

I am not an agnostic and do not like the term, so I would thank you kindly not to define me personally as such.  I appreicate it.  I am an atheist.  As no negative can be proven, then god is a negative and therefore does NOT exist.

I was responding to those Atheists out there who have taken the tact of calling any kind of religious views and impulse as pathological and in need of therapy. Of course I have found the same among pathological right wingers over Liberalism too. [Michael “The Savage” Wiener.] It is a dangerous row to hoe. So I find myself as an uncredited diplomat to try to smooth things over when I can. It will be better for us all in these times of increasing violence and religious fundamentalism from many quarters from the USA to India to the Middle East.

Night-Gaunt

“I have no malice toward believers”

I agree. I grew up in a church that was harmless. I also grew up in a church that lied and today in homophobic.

I would imagine that any minister who graduated from a college like Yale must know that he/she is lying about something in the religion. It could be the Christmas story…or whatever. And then there’s the long history of religion in general…and Christianity specifically (as well as Islam) which as a whole has not been exactly wonderful to women and Jews etc.

I have no love at all for the RCC but know scores of Catholics and even married one…now excommunicated. (Okay they have good soup kitchens somewhere….but you know what I mean.)

I don’t think any of us here have attacked anyone maliciously. And very few believers come here spouting a “faith alone” argument.Nor are our arguments based on faith alone. That time doesn’t exist is a fact not a faith. That we have no reason to believe that a god could come into being with all knowledge of everything..is based on what we know..not based on what we don’t know. If you go down to my post of Dec 7 there’s a list of what a believer must have faith in….and I’d bet the average believer hasn’t a clue as to how long the list is…and trust me that list is not complete. I don’t see belief and disbelief equal at all. The comparison is more like believers believe in magic, in world where magic doesn’t exist and non believers in what we know not what we don’t know. (I’m sure others here can improve on that)

I’m sorry Night Gaunt Reit.

Blanc Mange is very wobbly and when exposed to heat melts away.

“To which, I replied that since the
professions add great honor to greater specialization
to the point of the professor who proceeded to know
more and more about less and less until he knew
everything about nothing at all.”-F.D.Mange

A nice solipsism but hardly real. But I agree that, “specialization is for insects,” as the great Robert A. Heinlein said. However I have no malice toward believers. In fact I admonish others who take such angry and sometimes unethical attacks on them. It is foolish and unnecessary and most of all counter productive. I agree with that famous deist and president, Thomas Jefferson about any one’s practice of religion is fine as long it,” doesn’t pick my pocket or break my leg.” Here, here! Do you agree with that?

As for proof, Stewart Price put it this way, “For those who believe no proof is enough, for those who don’t believe no proof is enough.”

Here is what the Bible says…
117. Man is justified by faith alone
        Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
      Man is not justified by faith alone
        James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13
(http://www.evilbible.com)
Pick your poison on that F.D.Mange.

...but we didn’t really expect that he would have any evidence for a god or deity did we?  I didn’t.  The faithful almost always have a story to tell, but it’s always based upon emotion rather than fact or evidence.  I have never ever heard of am evidential meeting with a deity. Never.  Just a lot of emotional stories…i.e. “I know there’s a god beause my friend was killed on his bike and the car that killed him missed me by only two inches, so god spared me because I am special.  To hell with my friend and his family”...  :D

Mseiu’ le Blanc Mange

Not my usual way. but a Blanc Mange is a pudding with little substance, no sustenance, and very little taste.

Which sums up nicely your non answer.  If this is the best you can do to give credence to “Belief” then we are assured in our lack of it. Not a single syllable of supportive evidence which you,originally, inferred you had. Sad.

Mange….cute answer but we didn’t ask you to answer in 15 minutes either.  You can make multiple posts if you wish.

I can tell you this. 99% of ideas/beliefs can be expressed in a sentence. E-MC2 might have taken Einstein months to calculate but the resulting idea can be expressed in a formula. I have a relative who believes that Jesus fixed him up with his new wife…giving no credit at all to the Christian dating service where he found her, and statistics which almost guaranteed that something would have happened. (He also failed to blame Jesus for screwing up his first marriage.) I also ran across a believer who believed because so many good things happened to him…not recognizing that he might be one of the “all the luck in the world” people who sit on the better side of the “good luck bad luck” bell curve. Another believer got better when Oral Roberts held him upside down…and so he believed…when his cure could have been spontaneous, psychosomatic, or just sheer luck. But to him it was god.

They now know that common RNA can be created with known compounds without the help of man. RNA leads to DNA and the digital code which ID claims needs a god. But no one can explain how a god comes into being with all knowledge of everything versus your prof who knows everything about nothing.  Perhaps you are just plain awed by it all…which is an answer…but not much of one.

So you have room here to share more than nothing.

Mr. Mange,

“OK. I am not one to believe that debts are
obligations of equality. If I did, I could never buy
anything at the price offered. Yet, I take the
admonition and say that what I saw is between me and
the deity.”

There is no debt, and no obligation.  But common courtesy is a nice thing.  You took the admonition and as well you should have because you were the one who mentioned you and said deity.  You brought it to us.  Again, common courtesy was in order and you did, indeed, follow it up with a very interesting post after your admonishment.

Academic usage of words is not terribly impressive if one doesn’t show with wisdom in their usage.  Seems more like trickery. Sometimes, not being deliberately vague is wiser.  And wisdom is something that I value more than academic intellect.

Night Gaunt, I felt the same way about the Serbian language.  I have a friend in Kraljevo who teaches English and she said that the Serbs have curse words that she cannot put into English because the English language does not have words “vile” enough to translate their nastier dialogue.  And as nasty as I can get when someone angers me, I can think of MANY words and they fly freely from my mouth, too.  But sometimes I run out of cuss words when I am angrey and start to repeat the same ones.  It made me think that they must be very lucky when they go into rages…they have MORE curse words to apply than I do.

I don’t curse too much in my daily language unless i get angry.  “Shit!” comes out pretty fluently and quite naturally really.  But I don’t see why “crap” is such an acceptable alternative.  I really think it’s hipocrisy and I don’t care for censorship unless it’s hate speech meant to harm and hurt. i.e. Fred Phelps.  I believe he should be jailed for his harassing of funerals and the death of soldiers, and gays.  He’s taken his refeedom of religion too far, and is now infringing on other’s rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Tom, Capito, marinaio.  Still, ginny doesn’t bother me.

For me all words are tools, there are no “bad words” only words describing bad or less pleasant things. Such as why is “shit” bad to say but not “rape” or “war” in any context? Even so I use them rarely and appropriately i.e. in a fit of peek as the Brits would say. Now I have read that the Swedes have no swear words, does anyone know if that is correct? How can this be? No curses, no speaking of bodily functions in a negative way, etc. I am an amateur philologist among other things. Nietzsche was a professional and he used it in his writings, very easy to misconstrue something of his. Especially if you are reading straight without nuance. A mistake used by enemies of his thinking and those who curse him for something he did not advocate—-at all.

The last word?

Riet you mentioned “Ginny”.. Have to be careful “Down under” with that one.  A Gin is a not very polite reference to an Aboriginal woman.  In actuality it originally referred to a man’s wife but has been so corrupted it has become a near accusation of “Anybody’s” black woman, and I do mean anybody’s.

Derogatory names are the first thing inculcated into the military mind to instill a feeling of superiority, with a sense of righteousness for acts that in another context would be totally unacceptable. In WW2 the Japanese were Nips and an inferior specie until they came over the Malayan peninsular with push bikes to capture the whole British Far Eastern army. The Americans were next and the inferior “Nips” were never stopped until the Australians in Borneo, for the first time, halted and reversed their advance.  Thereafter they never won another battle, but they were still “Nips” even though, in defeat, they often showed more personal bravery than many of their opposition in victory.

Night Gaunt Don’t be apologetic. Texas is a great State to be from…........... Far from.
Seriously I enjoyed my stays there in early 45.  Fantastic people. Heck I’ve still got a gap from a pulled tooth in Corpus Christi.  I still am glad I didn’t opt for domicile there.

O K Evacuating bladders and bowels in action it is fact.  I was involved in one action off the Welsh Coast when sailing in a tanker loaded with aviation fuel.  The American Liberty Ship ahead of us and a Norwegian black oil tanker astern were hit, our evasive action let the torpedo past to the Norwegian.
Our defense was usually with either Navy or Army gunners seconded, on account of advanced age. Our particular bloke was a 45 year old Army gunner, married with kids and no desire to be sitting on a loaded tanker. Turning to me, during the initial action he said. “Son take this gun (Oerlikon)”  I had no idea what to do with it, but he said .“If you see a periscope fire in that direction, you won’t hit it, I couldn’t, but the Navy will know where you are firing.” With which he disappeared.  Couple of the older hands told me that the poor beggar had been hammered once before, and as soon as action was on, the bladder also went into overdrive.  I’ll not condemn him, I was too young to know what fear was, in spite of being daily bombed before I went to sea.
Like the youngsters in cars we are impregnable.

I don’t (very often) use profanities, I feel it to be an insult to my linguistic abilities. Unnecessarily insulting adjectives can only bring about uncalled for violence, which never proves anything other than physical superiority.  Which is, on the broader scale, exactly what is happening in the Middle and Far East today. Capisce?

Mange is an infection of the skin of mammals including cats, dogs and maybe chupacabras too. It causes the fur to fall out in irregular patches leaving mottled skin rough and infected. Don’t scratch!

Also on a side note Abe is pronounced “ahbeh”  in Japanese not “Ayb” as we do in English. “To tucker out” means to wear out or tire of here in the great nation of Texas. I don’t like all of these racist euphemisms used to others by them. That includes such false speciation words as “(sand)nigger,” “slope,” and “kike” among many others. The most recent is used by occupation troops of the USA in Iraq & Afghanistan refer to the locals as “haji.”* These will be the only times I bring them up in conversation.

Words do mean things and if we are to keep the integrity of the language we need to keep them in the same meaning when we discuss topics.

So as the religionists can’t conceive the idea that there can be no religious patterned thought by any human being we can also must consider that believers aren’t all mentally ill as some Atheists contend. They are not simply because a very few have schizophrenia or any other mental illness which can strike anyone at 1% of the population. (It is on the same chromosome that mathematical abilities come from. Remember Dr. Nash?) Maybe Seneca‘s statement to the effect of the thin line between brilliance and madness was a true observation rooted in biological fact.

It is as logical as the zebra saying that the horse is genetically debased and only the zebra is normal even though there are more horses than zebras. Atheists are zebras in this case. It is a matter of evolution and the need to have variants out there in case of when the environment changes and the horses can’t then survive but suddenly the zebras are in their best environment. Rather like it took the extinction of the dinosaurs to allow for the already established mammals (since the Jurassic) to come into their own.

However if we are not careful we can all become extinct by our group folly. Not just wars over religion and resources but in not helping each other i.e. “Mutual Aid” (Kropotkin) which actually works better than competition.

*First heard that name on “Jonny Quest” the companion adoptedof brother Jonny from India.(1964) Later in the animae series “Blood +” (2002-2005) was a character of that name.

You see it all the time, SNED, people have to try to parlay theism in with atheism as if it’s a religion instead of a “non” belief.  It’s like telling someone
that they are not sure of their non-belief in fairies should a few pop up from the garden and talk to them.  it’s the “provea negative” thing again.

Mange, while you’re answering Tom, why don’t you expound on this satemtent: “I have to admit that atheism is not equal to theism
in any way except maybe in a capacity to reason from
evidence rather than intuition.”

That is, in what way does intuition play a part in reason?  Schizophrenics have intuitions about a lot of things, and most..if not all..enter the hospital gates with a Bible tucked under their arm.  If you believe in one thing..you may as well believe in something else that you “fear could be real”.  It is interesting that shiczophrenics are hyper-religious.  It kind of shows you the origins of fear and where insanity lies.  They are paranoid about the most unrealistic things..the least of these NOT being gods and monsters.

Tom… wondered why a grown man would call out to Mom…till you mentioned that your were 17 at the time.

I would imagine that are a limited number of call outs…most explitives. Jesus Christ! is certainly one, but not very prayerful, while Oh God is more of a gloom and doom statement than a prayer,as if to say “you’re letting this happen to me?

Faced with death in battle I was told that many men wet themselves or worse which is not a very religious act.

To FD Mange…“you are not sure of your atheism” is a silly statement. If the hand of god reached out from the sky and touched any of us…well, we’re not idiots either. All of us I’m sure would have to be conviced that that’s what it was and not the result of a drunken night out.

I think you owe Tom an answer to what you saw that made you believe.

Well, I have cetainly heard the term “limey bastard”..and hymie, though I think spelled “heimie”.  That was all interesting to me. You can’t calla Jewish person heimie in the states; I know it gotRev. Jesse Jackson in trouble. :D

What IS in a word?  Nothing to me.  I have been called Wop, dago, ginny, etc.  I don’t care.  None of them bother me in the least.  In fact, they’re kinda funny.  I am not one for censorship at all.

Terminology. Different countries different meaning.
Hymie =German.  My son’s oldest friend is an Australian adopted by a British woman and a German Swiss father.
I’ve never heard him referred to as anything but Hymie, his adoptive parent’s name is the Germanic Meier. I am the only one, outside of his family, to call him Peter.

Gringo/Spanish.  Well that is the south of the border’s derogatory reference to an Anglo.  Whilst the reverse is “Greaser”.

Dago is an even more obnoxious reference to Italians but can be extended to as far east as Malta and Greece.

Wog anybody further east still.

In Australia you will still hear two friends meet and say “Ow yer going you old bastard.” In this context it is a friendly greeting.

A young friend (female) took on a job as a bus tour guide with a load of teen aged U S tourists, one accidentally dropped her bag on Alison’s foot, resulting in the exclamation “Jesus bloody Christ.” this brought horrified protests and condemnation.  Alison just said “We are heading into the west into the real outback. If that offends you then I suggest you disembark right now because that is very mild to the every day speech you’ll hear out there.”

Dame, in the U K, is a woman of exalted station. Equivalent to a male Knight. Hooker in the U S has a different meaning to the Rugby player who hooks the ball in a scrum.

The British and the French derogatively refer to Germans as Boche or Hun. To the English the French are Frogs, Oh it goes on.  Vanilla custard to a French person is Creme Anglais to a Limey it is French Cream.

I can’t recall ever using derogatory terms to denote a person’s national identity.I have used locality identifying ones such as Scouse for a Liverpudlian or Paddy for an Irishman, Jock for a Scot,Geordie for a Tynesider. None are considered denigrating.

That last of yours is funny too “Spic”  Yes I know the American equivalent, but in France it is a very unacceptable word when referring to a Gendarme/Police Officer..About equivalent to the modern English reference to a law enforcement officer…“The Filth.” or “Pigs.”

So what’s in a word?

Hm.  My paternal grandmother was Siclian.  She said to me once that WOP never bothered her.  It was a stamp that meant “without papers.  But for some reason, and no rhyme that she could give me, the word dago was very bad and hateful.  I guess I am just thinking how Hymie and these other bad words can be conceived as equal to “wop” since my grandfather and mother did have to go through loops and what not to get papers. So, wop is like calling an american a gringo.  It’s nothing! But I think hymie would be more like dago, or spic..these things are derrogatory.

In WW2 on my first ship. I was the kid (17yrs) from the Big Smoke who dressed a little too sharp for the Northerners,  had side levers, and Italian style clothing and horror of horrors I didn’t hate Italians.  So I became the Wop. I could have been Hymie or Moses,or anything else as I didn’t then, and don’t now, hate anybody for their nationality. Not even Americans. Israelis? I’m a little bit pulled there. To consolidate it, when in Italy I rapidly picked up conversational Italian, just as rapidly lost it. but that was over sixty years ago.  I now live in an area that is heavily Italian. Well Sicillian and that’s close.  Most of them have grown out of it anyway.

Well, it was really just an observation..nothing you needed to defend.  I could be wrong. It may be that “old” ghosts haunt the thread. 

And if you address me in Italian, you can do it in the non-formal way of “ci vediamo in domani” o “ci vediamo presto, ciao”.  It’s off topic but why were you called “woppie?”  That is an odd nickname.

In Australia it is “Tucker” which is also totally irrelevant to the subject matter.

Maybe it is my age, or maybe upbringing, but I like to think I left juvenile playground sniggering name calling a long way behind me.  Not very amusing.

I have no intention of trying to be superior, intellectually or in any other way. I’m sorry if that is your perception but I cannot claim responsibility for your feelings. As for you being annoyed with my word delivery, I’m afraid there is nothing I can do about that, it is your problem not mine.  I do find it strange though seeing that, to my knowledge,  I have no piety of which you accuse me, and, theoretically, we are of the same theological disposition.

I have never claimed superiority related to age or not.  Age may, or may not, denote experience, some learn others don’t.  Lack of age doesn’t denote lack of intelligence, just a possible shortage of experience. I do not think age, of itself, demands respect or even consideration.  The present Pope is an example, along with some very aged members of Congress and the Senate who in their senile years oppose Freedom of Choice for women.

My reference to the name, if you go back, was to my thinking, possibly incorrectly, that the name was of French origin, and my next response addressed him as Monsieur.  It, initially, had nothing to do with your, to my mind, unkind reference.

Vi vedro domani. Addio. (Para Italiano molto pocita)
Although my nickname when young was “Woppie.”
.

Yes, well Tom, it’s mangiare in Italy but we are not in Italy or France.  We speak English on this page.  So before you get too “tut-tut” with your piety, notice that I reminded him that it was I who noticed that his name is, indeed, in English a cat disease.

You have this way about you that annoys me.  You write like you’re superior to everyone because you have age… but you’re not.  I just thought you might need reminding of that.

English: Mange is cat fur disease.  English speaking site:  you’re on one.

M Mange

No there is not the slightest deviation from my atheism, in my eighties it is unlikely to be so.
But I detected that you were theistic and you intimated you had proof for so believing, and challenged atheists by the nasal touching reference.

I have so often challenged believers to produce evidence, so far none have responded. For all that any skeptic would most certainly welcome proof that his/her particular attitudes were fallacious and would consider any definitive, reliable, proven, evidence to the contrary. It would be ridiculous not to do so.

As for the name I presumed it was a corruption of the French “Manger” (Monsjay)... to eat/food. I was not the one who said your name referred to a scruffy person or an animal’s adverse dermal.condition.

Sooooo….F.D..Maybe your parents could have re-thought that name a little later and changed it to have a “t” at the end of it.

Kind of like when I go and get clothes at Target.  I always tell people I got them at “Tar-jhay”...the French sounding version.  They’ll never know :D However you slice it, your last name is unfortunate and I extend my condolences once more.  However, it’s just a name so I won’t hold it against you that I laughed so hard I got a headache.

I should have said the atheist isn’t praying..he’s hoping.

Atheists in foxholes? Believers fared no better

Every word of the following is true, allowing for poetic license.  The action was off the coast of Florida January 1945.Part of my life.  It has been previously published.

            MY MOM IS MY GOD.

No atheists in foxholes will you ever find.
The Mission Padre intoned sententiously.

A more appropriate sentence he could have chosen
Addressing a crew of cynical Merchant Seamen.

Well, at sea, shovels are very hard to find,
Then digging watery holes is so unproductive.

The Padre saw our exchange of glances skeptic
And our supercilious smiles at his invective.

When next you’re in some dire sea storm danger
To HIM you’ll call to save you from the devil.

I then recalled, from years before, one big fright.
A war time tanker, dead calm sea, clear dark night.

On look out for any phosphorescent torpedo line
Whether missed or seen could still end your time.

Then off the starboard bow, I saw the deadly streak,
It was heading fast, and true, and straight at me.

No time to reach the phone nor ring the bell
To the bridge I turned, prepared a mighty yell.

But with legs like jelly and throat constricted
My voice had gone ‘twas just as well, as then

I saw two more killer trails,now with death to come.
I could only manage a squeaky. “Oh! Oh! Mom”

On came those fearsome wakes to strike home. and
Reaching our crashing bow wave foam, they turned

Without reducing speed, taking it in their stride
For Gratis, and very playfully, they surfed a ride.

Dolphins may be cute in aquatic shows
But not when imitating enemy torpedoes

Jesus, it is claimed, changed wine to water
My Mom’s clever trick was so much better.

For many years the only person I told this to was my mother, certainly not my shipmates.

Their is an Atheist group of survivors who were in fox holes and stayed that way!

Hope this year isn’t as baaad or worse than the last. Don’t place any bets though!

“For God so loved the world, that he gave no evidence of his existence”.  ~ inspired by the book of John as seen through the eyes of ...me.

Buon anno nuovo i mie amici fideli!! Keep the sanity!!

As I told my right winged relative who threw the “there are no atheists in fox holes” bromide….“If you see an atheist praying in a foxhole…he’s hoping that there’s a god, while the believers know there is one.

Tom E is right

and F.D. Mange could be FG, time will tell.

Messieur F D Mange.

It is not uncommon here to receive complex replies to simple questions.

Simply.  Atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of any Gods.

Reason. There has never been any verifiable, replicable, evidence to support the existence.

As for your further question regarding nose touching deities.  There isn’t a single atheist anywhere who wouldn’t immediately “Recant”, should ANY substantial, undeniable evidence that they were wrong be presented.  So far, not on any occasion, has there been even the slightest form of evidence proffered.

You could be the first?..........Over to you.

That’s the whole point F.D.Mange there is no god just much mental gymnastics to lay claim to phenomena as god’s. No proof, in fact orders that say you must accept it or else you fail! The whole point of “believing in me” is to do it without one whit of anything that could show such a all in nothing and everything is there. So all of you positions are lame and ignorant of the being you support. Why care if some of us are immune to this? How could you be so sure that that being was god and not some super powerful entity (from a million year old civilization) from the Dog Star leading primitives by the nose? You don’t.

Hello F.D.  I am not one to answer your question because I don’t know what you’re talking about.  Suppose this, suppose that..whatever.  I just wanted to give you my condolences on your last name.

My mother-in law….92 and on facebook with a come hither pose….I’ll get it to you. Once the old man died she became a new person….Hello Drew? she Looks like a late 70’s instead of a 92 soon to be 93. Plays golf.. can still do 18 holes (but usually 9) Me? Can’t hit a golf ball straight with or without lessons so I don’t play and never did (play a round of golf)

Yes the technology does wear one out..and I agree with Night Gaunt that the right wing will keep getting more fanatical. But hopefully the middle will become more moderate.

30 years ago I could not have thought that religion would still be ruling the world as it does today. Watched a show on a cult on NG last night. The leader was screwing all the wives…and they just adored the jerk. He’s in jail now…but it is bizare ....yet our believer friends are all related to a much lesser degree. zzzzzzzz.

Oh wow!  I loved that video.  I am posting it on MySpace.(insert laughing emoticon here).  I don’t get the concept behind it though, the idea that it’s making people stupid.  I think there’s a wealth of knowledge on the net, and that it has kept me much better informed than at any other time in my life. I feel more knowlegeable about current events and anything that I might just think up in my overly curious mind.  Before I would just have to blow it off..whatever it was that I couldn’t find out right then and now or in a library.  Now I can run to my computer and find all sort of answers.  I know who’s scammming me because I can do the reviews, etc. 

It is making for a faster more stress filled world, though.  Just trying to keep up is exhausting.  I have never even looked at an ipod and I am 46.  And yet there’s my mother on facebook making blogs, etc.  She’s 82!! She always did have more energy than I do, but still…she’s techno savvy.  It’s kind of frightening, but I think it’s a good thing overall.

Did I miss the point?

It will grow until the system either breaks down or the people do. We are heading for a time where there will be islands of technology amid squalor and decay because our present systems are attenuated and brittle and can collapse very easily. We see that more people are staying with some kind of religion and more are embracing more strict versions of their faiths and will be growing as the the world gets harder to live in. It has happened in the past and is happening now. We need to keep calm an not go down the easy road to theocracy whether here or any where else. Bad times promote inquisitions, militarism, censorship and war.

Thanx for the video on “Socialnomics” and its growing impact.

Reit1. Hi Veroninca…
Yes it seems that the younger folk are getting it. There was a story about a year ago about a southern high school that ejected and or punished a couple of kids for being gay and the straight kids straightened out the town and the school administration. I’m sure the internet has had a great deal to do with it as information is always a threat to radicals.

I listen to the catholic radio station (for the music)and the crap they spew out about only believers can be happy rational kind folk is just so much bullcrap. No wonder the church is dying all over.

RE Facebook…you can hide the comments made by friends…they never know it but you don’t see it.(and you can defriend them) I’m semi sorry I’m on there too…but then I’m not a young person.
Here’s something interesting to watch…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIFYPQjYhv8

Night Gaunt..we are on the same page. Where there is some leeway deals with the big bang as the start of it all. Many mnany years ago I realized that time did not exist (others here have heard this before) Time is a measurement and measurements don’t exist in the sense that I can’t hand you and inch or a minute. Without time all our words that utilize a time element are only meaningful to us, but not to the universe. So “beginning:” and “end” are meaningless. From that I draw the conclusion that whatever this universe is…it had no beginning and will have no end. And this all- knowing god has no place in the equation. I agree with you that it’s easier to believe that intelligence evolved from something that came first, and whatever it is or was…it wasn’t intelligent. A show on time on the Science channel recently spent an hour talking about time as if it existed (although relative)..but under the credits the moderator stated..“time is an illusion”...and we know what illusions are.

Sned,  I have been here and gone here and gone..for the holiday rush.  I just read the article.  It doesn’t surprise me, but it does delight me.  One by one people are becoming a little more calm about atheism and I think it’s because of this kind of moderate thinking. 

I joined facebook and looked up old friends and accidently got connected to some of them I didn’t want to see, and I noticed that their religious views are very benign whereas 20 years ago they were all quite ferocious in their beliefs. Now instead of Bible and sacrament thumping..their pages say stuff like “Love god, love everyone”..under “religious viewpoints”.  I was sorry that I joined facebook because there are people I just don’t want to see in my life from the past, but that part was interesting.

Even here; the truthdig called “Jesus: The Man The Myth”  was written by a reverend.  Although some really high riding xians do debate there. :D

Sorry The Sned I was giving a truncated explanation of what I remember about the “Big Bang” and our universe formation. The point is that if a god doesn’t need to be created then why not the universe? Though they do know from the microwave background radiation that it happened some 14.7 Billion years ago. It now fits better than Steady State did before and for the same reasons Biblically! “Let there be light!”

For me it is hard for the idea of intelligence to spring first without a universe to contain it. One can happen afterward but not before.  And then we can talk about the Multiple Worlds Model which makes even some religionists cringe as to having a god rule not just one universe but many. [That at every quantum junction all possibilities happen but only one per universe.] Or are there one god per universe? Science can cause such conundrums but for godists they can simply say it is nothing more than an idea on Man, not a fact. Very easy. [There was that photon test that had the missing photon suggesting that it appeared in a nearby dimension instead of our own. More later from them?]

I hope I cleared up some of my poor writing, I don’t always remember to put down all that I am thinking.

Tom…in a way I did ask that question, after all what’s not mythical about resurrection? He did thank me for the link to the book from Google, and I assume he’ll take a look. If we can remember…let’s ask him in a few weeks.

Sned.

This Baptist Minister is probably like a very prominent R C Priest here in Australia.  He resigned from the Church just ahead of a possible excommunication. He disagreed to too much of the official line.

Asked why he didn’t become an atheist or, at least, an agnostic his reply probably would transpose to the Baptist.  “You can take the boy out of the Church but not the Church out of the boy.”

A former Baptist minister on Xmas.

http://www.alternet.org/story/144510/christian_story_of_jesus’s_birth_is_a_myth_born_of_politics

Very short sweet to the point and surprising. Check out link on another article he wrote which is an eye op-ener if true.. but I think relates to the young Christians who aren’t as conservative and bigoted as their parents. Anyway I wrote to him and asked him why his interpretation of the of Xmas doesn’t apply across the board…resurrecttion etc. Sent him a link to “Bible myths and their parallels in other religions.” See if he responds after scanning that book.

Also Thanks Night-Gaunt for the links and thoughts

Night-Gaunt, all wars bother me. However, vigilantism does not.  Hope that answers the one question I understood.  You brought us some good links that are worth looking into and for this I appreciate your commenting.  However, when you addressed me, I didn’t understand a thing you said.  So, I am going to assume that you didn’t understand a thing I typed.

I just lost everything I had typed in by going over 8 characters and it wouldn’t let me remove any or even copy it to try again. A flaw TruthDig needs to fix. Such as why didn’t it stop when it ran out instead of going over and freezing?

“I just have a problem with the concept of one or more Gods coming into existence with all information all at once.”—The Sned

That is where I have problems too. I can see intelligence coming after to some kind of intelligent energy field but before? That horse doesn’t go before the cart—-ever! If a god doesn’t need to be created does our universe need be? Or the stuff of which is was produced—a discontinuity in quantum elements producing a cist intruding in our area of space then boom! Or so it goes now it could change in 10 years.

Drew Sappington check out http://www.evilbible.com for all the contradictions you can stand. Side by side and where they come from are listed for your edification or horror. Where did the original Dr. Steven J. Gould quote come from? From what essay? I don’t trust these theists to quote properly.

Slavery was ended, open type anyway, was done be people who were humanists and went beyond their religion to help others. Even if they didn’t consider them equal as people they thought of them as those who should not be shackled just as the Jews escaped slavery in Egypt. [To bad the secret slaver rings are still working using cheap labor to make those cheap products for USA consumption.]

Wayne248 the point should be to prove Michael Jackson lived to have a proper analogy you are looking for. Resurrection too if you must.

Parthenogenesis is when a natural clone is made without male sperm. She is female and exactly like the mother. But there are androgen receptor errors that produce men who are really women and women whose DNA would type for female. Though they look like the other gender.

I accept the proofs of evolution not any kind of belief that it is. Some mechanisms are still to be found but like with climate change and gravity—-it is a fact in the broadest sense.

For all of those who have heard the lies that the National Socialists of Germany were “atheists” look here to see just how many Christians supported it…http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm will show you visual proof.

“Religion is excellent for keeping the common Man quiet.”-Napoleon I

“The fever of religion is very effective in accomplishing the objectives of the state.”-Adolf Hitler

Reit1 right now it is the USA 78.2% Christian who is invading, occupying and killing mostly the followers of Islam right now not Iran or Saudi Arabia. Unlike jihad which can mean war or just a search for the truth, crusade means only war by the cross. Millions dead, enslaved or injured by our crusade in the Middle East starting in 1990. Does that bother you Reit1? It should.

Your views of “good always conquering evil” is the kind of cartoon Christianity we get pounded into our psyches since birth. White hat vs black hat, simplistic and destructive as we have seen at least since 1980 if not before. Applying absolutes to a relative world.

Your conception of being “souless” and therefor not a person anymore but an “animal” that is then okay to be killed disturbs me. It isn’t humanism but is definitely occultic and certainly Christian. It also promotes the kind of psychopathology we see in our country every day. Maybe they do run it and we are in the asylum for not being like them. Beware, it is a pernicious path you follow.

“You’re luck Death saved you fat man!”-Mandy (Grim Adventures Xmas movie to a vampire infected Saint Nick saved by Grim from her stake in his heart.)

“As a matter of fact the last argument I had with a RC relative started when he claimed to be “better” than I was because he gave money every Sunday to the church…with little knowledge of what I did with my money and my life.”

Well, ha!  That was his downfall! Let him be the idiot!!! :D

Yes, Tom, I think you’re spot on.  I have always viewed Mike as a lapsed Catholic.  Although there are other possibilites such as, Mike doesn’t believe in gods, but he is vicariously “taking care of mom” by sticking by his Catholic praises.  You know, in other wordes, he is praising mom and attributing it to the RCC for lack of a better way to see her goodness.  And hell!  Maybe her goodness does come from the RCC!  Because when piety disguised as humility makes a person look righteous on the outside, then we can surmise what must be going on on the inside.  Maybe some people DO need a reason to be good. or attempt to wash secret guilts away.  I know that there are sure a LOT of death row prisoners who love Jesus….but they didn’t before they needed a reason.

Tom Edgar…you are a great asset to this sight. Love to read your posts. And we do have some similarities. I too considered those 2 minutes of pleasure as not worth a lifetime of commitment and returning to college the year after I graduated I found out that one of my ex girlfriends had been impregnated by a professional boy scout. She and I had fun…but not in a way that produced kids. I did slip up before I got married…but it was with the person to whom I was engaged…and whom I married…and am still married to some 40+ years later.

And your instincts about Mike reflect mine and I think Annie’s.

Mike just doesn’t talk like any atheist I know.And I too observed that he might be here playing games. And your observation that we don’t claim moral superiority is right on. 

As a matter of fact the last argument I had with a RC relative started when he claimed to be “better” than I was because he gave money every Sunday to the church…with little knowledge of what I did with my money and my life. He sounded like a complete ass.

I HAD A REPLY IT EXCEEDED THE QUOTA, TRIED TO REDUCE , IT REFUSED TO COOPERATE. Here goes again.

Mike you actually reinforce both my, and Sned’s observations of doubtful authenticity of your claim to be an atheist.
“I had a soul once and my journey of education removed that soul from me.” I did say previously that no atheist I have ever known would recognise a “Soul” if he fell over one. Your acceptance of having had one but now you have lost it beggars belief.

You don’t read my letters properly.  I was 25 yrs, and my wife was 28 yrs at marriage. I forgive you it is natural to think the ages, as in most cases, would be reversed.  Catholicism had little to do with my wife’s chosen path of chastity.  She was from,  a “Bush” background and the local town of 400 pop had a visiting, (once every two weeks), Priest.
Neither of her divorced parents ever attended church, her brother a WW2 Australian veteran of the New Guinea jungle campaigns said, when dying. “No bloody Priests, if you insist, then get the “Salvation Army” they were the only ones with us in the jungle.”

Why was I more moralistic than you because I didn’t succumb to animalistic sexual urges? You, a claimed atheist, then add God bless you. My only advice from my father was.  “Treat all women as you would your sister and mother”.Then as they were seeing me off in WW2 to my first ship. he said “Don’t forget, two minutes of pleasure can lead to a lifetime of problems”. I think I was three hours into the train trip before I realised what he was talking about.
I, at seventeen years old, was the oldest of four first trippers.  Docked in N Y,  the others, one aged sixteen, and two of fifteen years left N Y City with a venereal infection, I didn’t. No quick cures then.
I had the peculiar idea of expecting to marry a virgin, and thought that any woman deserved the same.
I can’t give you any other reasons, because I don’t have any.

You do get mixed up. It was Sned who brought in “Taking the Helm.” not me.  I have been the preferred helmsman on most ships on which I sailed, in calm or in hurricanes the snags below are as invisible. But you should chart a different course for those remarks.

I admit I was educated in a C o E school. Al Saints.
The Principal often said.” Not the makings of a Saint amongst the lot of you.”  Not wrong, I think most of us were atheists before leaving. I well remember the services and the regular “Oldie” of “Stand up, stand up for Jesus, Children of the cross.” With the incensed Principal hearing, distinctly, the group at the back singing even louder. “Sit down, sit down for Christ’s sake the people at the back can’t see.” At twelve years we were already an irreverent mob.

Mike, Is that Michael,Patrick,Paul? Why do I get the feeling you are either a plant or even a Priest trying to white ant this atheist site with claims of atheism by slipping in Catholic oriented phrases?  Is it possible you are a lapsed Mick but really you don’t want to let go completely? I really can’t understand how anybody, especially an atheist, could claim to Catholicism the morality any of dozens of other religions abrogate to themselves.

Atheists unlike “Theists” never have claimed any righteousness nor especial physical or philosophical, superiority.  Heck it is even possible(marginally)that there are even atheists who vote “Republican.”

Always remember Atheism is not antagonistic to any particular religion or sect. Atheists just have no reason to believe in a God. Morality and personal behaviour choices are just that. PERSONAL. Bit like “Believers” in that respect.

Mike,
Thank you for attempting to answer my question regarding Hitler.  However, my question was not what would you have done in that time and in that country; rather my question was “if you knew before hand what he would do, would you have wanted him dead..maybe even attempted his death?”  There’s a difference in sitting on the side lines and praising a young and strong leader so long as you don’t have to see the concentration camps, nor watch as each person-including children-are gunned down and worse.  I think if you were there at the time and saw these things, you might actually not raise that beer mug quite so high.  But I do agree that I might have done the same thing out of pride and ignorance.  It would be arrogant of me to say otherwise.  But who knows?  What I do know, is that if I had known the outcome and just what he was really doing and for what stupid ideology..I would have wanted him dead.  Just as dead as he is now today.

Maybe you are an atheist.  If you don’t believe in god I guess that’s what you’re called.  Odd as that is to me..that we have to have a title because we are not buying into beliefs that we inherited.  But still, maybe you are one.  But I do agree with SNED…upholding the “goodness” of the RCC can never, never erase nor equal out the evil it has done.  I believe you still would have been just as good a peson as you are today without it’s influence.  Maybe even better…but at least just as good.

Mike..I just lost and note to you. But the nut of it is this. You don’t get it. Nor so you understand that quote.
And I won’t explain it. And you are right I have no respect for the RC religion. Not a spec. Read some books by Gary Wills. The mere fact that it is secret is cause enough to question what it does.

Tom,
When I mentioned that I was led down a soul-less journey, it meant that I had a soul once and my journey of education removed that soul from inside me. I never feared the fires of hell but rather felt that others were deserving of love and good deeds from me because they were my fellow children of God. It is good to hear that you lived a more moral life than many others and I who were brought up in the Catholic Church. I believe Native Americans lived a more moral life also. We brought our religion and also our sins for them. What is moral now with no religion to guide me? If a starving Indian tribe needed shelter and a food source and another nomadic tribe took up their prime winter retreat, is it unmoral to drive/kill them out of there. Maybe it is natural and the right thing for the family clan to do for their survival.

Why abstain from sex before marriage, Tom, when you were primed and naturally ready long before that old age of 28? I suspect there were other reasons for you waiting but nevertheless “god bless you” for you dedication (to who and what – don’t know).
I want to comment on ….“Anyone can take the helm in calm seas.” IN other words she agreed that it’s not who you are now, nor who you were….when things are good. It’s who you are when the seas are rough.” (sned’s wife)

The Catholic Church taught her to sail. It could have been anyone, Tom, but, the truth is that it was the Church family that did so. She seemed to have evolved as a sailor but she gained her initial skills and behavior in her growing years. She and you, Tom, are good sailors, taught different ways, but good sailors.  That Indian was a good sailor Tom. The pioneer family who arrived on a ship and with a promise of a free open land of opportunities were good sailors too. We all believe we are better sailors than the other sailors in this sea of life.

Annie, I am an atheist because I do not believe in God. I wish I knew who taught me and how I learned to be a “good” and at the same time a “bad” sailor. I could only assume it was through my upbringing and schooling. How does one take those guidelines, throw them out and start with a new set of guidelines? And, what are those new set of guidelines anyway?

It is difficult for me to post a somewhat intelligent message in a somewhat short span of time. I will do my best and please forgive me if I miss an “s” or a “pee”.

Annie I do not feel that I am an angry person. I feel that I am rather saddened. I witness daily, acts and conversation such as Sned’s description of “a gay man, two married couples and a widow…”
Sned and others find it easy to attribute that hate and prejudice to an affiliation to the Catholic Church. All members that I know though have never heard one sermon that referenced condemnation to same sex partners. Sure, the Church takes that stand and many Christian Churches openly preach against it. But for the weekly Catholic services, it’s the same repetition of the same old stuff – stand, sit, kneel, also with you, amen, be like Christ, forgive and love thy neighbor… Sned will key on the easy stuff like abortion and homosexuality. But, Sned will leave out that the same people will also get into conversations against blacks moving in the area, Asians buying up property etc… This is one of my problems with points such as Sneds. Catholics leaders have no proclamations of condemnations against blacks, Hispanics or Asians…so where does this hate originate. Why is just a bit (homosexuality bias) taken from these folks? Is it simply to back an easy argument against the Church?  I am surrounded with blacks, Asians and Hispanics. The same bias and hateful conversation toward others exist in them also.
Atheism is not believing in a “God”. Period. But, what I see is Atheism becoming a group of “believers” against another group of “believers”.  Sned’s posts in particular always show his “hate” toward the Catholic Church.  It truly does not offend me. I simply try to point out to you, Sned, that your comments are strikingly similar to those very people who you described. You just change the title of the hated and presto you join the “hater” groups. Maybe you say that I am in a “league of my own” because I am not buying into your bias against religious/Catholic people. I do not believe in the biblical bible stories, old and new testaments. I do not believe in this God that is written about there. When I accept the views that religion is the culprit of our “negative human behavior” while also accepting the fact that we humans have inherent primal behavior (“negative behavior”) that is/was necessary for our survival, I will have become one confused person.

Annie, if I was a German man with a wife and kids without much food and without basic necessities. If I lived through WWI and believed that the United States and surrounding European Countries forced a treaty upon us and they become the source of my hardships in life. If I witnessed starvation and death in my family and towns all while being told that the other nations (and certain people) were striving and living normally. I believe that I would have been in that beer hall cheering on a new rising leader, a young brave charismatic figure, fierce and electrifying.  Here would be an opportunity for change and hope but from someone who instilled fear and excitement to my very senses. I believe that he would have stimulated my inherent primal interior instincts for survival. I believe that my religious teachings of hate and love would have played a much, much lessor role in that decision.

Well, I guess that makes three of us because I always thought that Mike was a lapsed Catholic.  In other words, a Catholic with doubts.  I recall him trying to “take on” GreenSnake on scientific issues.

Where did he ever say he was an atheist?  I missed it.
***
” For one thing, when I do good for others (and I am an atheist), I get the feeling like it is stemming from all that “love thy neighbor, thy brother etc…”  stuff that was instilled and programmed into me. And, if it is not originating from all that false biblical brainwashing, I realize that it originates from passed genes of empathy like emotions, instincts, involuntary actions and behavior….If you smile Tom at someone while passing by, you expect a smile in return. You are actually smiling for that returned pleasure. I am not that book smart, Tom, but please try not to insult my intelligence with mumble jumble. You may not believe in a heaven but if an atheist does good for another, there is a reason for it. Why do good anyway?****]

It says he is an atheist, but it’s all about theism ir “brainwashing” as he put it.  Funny.  It reminds me of all the people I debate with on different blogs.  One of the first statements commonly used for the fundamentalist is “if there’s no god, why don’t you just do whatever you want?”  My answer is always the same.  I do what I want.  So long as it hurts no one else.  As The Rational Response Sqaud says in one of their songs: “it’s not like you need the Bible to tell you what’s wrong…like if you do not listen you’re going to knife your mom…you still love who you love”..etc. etc.  Doing good may come from an emotional need.,  But you don’t need a god to want your emotions salved.  Ever wath Animal Kingdom? It’s amazing that we come from such creatures of emotional attachments.

Mike, you’re clearly just a Catholic who has doubts.

I couldn’t agree more with Tom’s post below. If you are an atheist Mike, you are in a league of your own. Tom rightly points out that your comments are bromide anti atheist sentiments. It sounds like you’re simply trying to play with us.Wrong sandbox.

I have a long letter to post about my wife, but last night I mentioned your theory and my response concerning Germany. Here was her response..and I paraphrase….“Anyone can take the helm in calm seas.” IN other words she agreed that it’s not who you are now, nor who you were….when things are good. It’s who you are when the seas are rough.

I have a theory that the reason Europe is no longer religious (only 20% of Italians attend church) is that the war showed the futility of prayer, and the failure of faith to solve the problems brought on by man himself and religion itself. (Hatred of Jews, gays, and gypsies)and in terms of the RCC…women.

Mike W

It is hard to follow your arguments.  I really do not believe you are an atheist. Although you state you are.

You open with the gambit “Humans are nothing more than animals.”  Well actually Biologically we are. You later on say “Without believing that humans are God’s chosen species (Shouldn’t have an s on the end) Tom, as an atheist, has no reason to treat humans   any different than a catfish under my knife.” No atheist I know would have those sentiments.

“Atheists lead a soul less journey.” I’ve yet to find an atheist who would have the foggiest notion what the hell a soul was.

If I smile at someone it is because I have pleasure in seeing them, no ulterior motivation.

If an atheist does good for someone he has a reason for it? Why do good anyway? Well when I do a good turn it isn’t to gather “Brownie Points.” or save my ass from burning. I do it because the pleasure is in being able to help another. Your instincts may well tell you to do otherwise, personally I try not to harm my fellow man, or woman.

That most objectionable part was when you intimated atheists are devoid of empathy.  Reminds me of the prevalence of the anti atheists who now describe atheists the way they described, in earlier times, Blacks, Native Americans and Jews.  You can no longer describe as animals without human emotions, no civilisation, dirty, money grabbing, so atheists are fair game.

Now I can’t speak for Sned, he’s more than capable for his own defence.  My wife even as a Catholic didn’t believe in Virgin Birth, Bodily Assumption,
the Garden of Eden rubbish and that was long before I met her. At 28 when I married her, she had several years been an employee during WW2 of the U S N.  she was still a virgin.  According to you this had nothing to do with her actually desiring to be chaste but was down to her Catholic upbringing.

Bad news cometh.  I had spent seven years as a Merchant Mariner, both during, and after, WW2.
I have never been a drinker, drug user, smoker, gambler, Oh and when I married at the age of 25 years, I was still a virgin too. AND a lifelong atheist. Which is more than most Christians can, HONESTLY,  say. Do I include you too?

You don’t speak or act like any atheist I know.  You repeatedly emphasise that only a good Catholic upbringing can impart good morals.  Well mine are better than the Catholic Pope Leo V111 who dropped dead whilst committing adultery. Or the countless pedophile Priests and Pastors, along with sadistic Nuns & Christian Brothers abusing little children.

Neither Religious affiliation nor being an atheist makes one moral.  A decent upbringing helps, be it from home or elsewhere. In the final analysis it is a personal thing.

The Congressional Medal of Honor has just recently been bestowed on a U S N Seal who sacrificed his life by throwing himself on a grenade saving his mates. Now I have no way of knowing if he was a Protestant, Jew, Catholic or atheist.  I doubt that any of those thoughts went through his mind when he
unselfishly gave his life to save others.

I know that during WW2 I had on several occasions been in similar situations where I could, and did, help others, never once did it cross my mind I was amassing salvation points.  If I’d stopped to think, I probably wouldn’t have done those acts. I was able so I did.

Mike : The short answer to our wonderful wives…is Germany. There must have been millions of sweet women raised quietly in Christian religions…who learned to stick their heads in the ground, and or hate…and become someone else. So it’s not what you were, but what you become under stress that counts. Anecdotes are useless…when a country of Christians demonstrated just how useless background became.  To this day my wife has great difficulty dealing with authority. Guess why? hreat of Hell? Threats of ecommunication? Threats dealing with masturbation…

The worst my wife and I have ever witnessed…ever…of hate, and I’ve mentioned it here before, was a discussion we had about gays with two married couples and a widow all of whom were raised catholic. There wasn’t one bit of humanity in anything they said. Their language spewed nothing but hate. Hate for the people. Hate for the act. Disgust and rage. There was not an ounce of understanding. Not one. My wife and I were appalled and shocked. And even today..in spite of admitting that they can’t cure homosexuality, the RCC still considers it aberrant and wrong..and therefore hateful and sinful. “The we love you anyway bullsh-t"is just that. The net is hate…and for some reason it works. You tell me why? It’s beyond me.

Mike W.  You are an angrier person.  I think that’s good.  People should get angry and at these injustices that you wrote of in your last post.  The answer, of course, is that we are always going to be a bit violent until our concepts evolve to a higher plane.  Man has evolved from primates, but our concepts for gaining territorial ground has not. We are still quite primal. 

As for this: “Reit1 challenged me with a question if I would have taken Hitler out.”. 

I will answer your questions to me as best as I can if you answer that question.

I brought up so many points and stories in the past that stress the fact that I feel I am more callous, cold, non-forgiving…. I look at other humans for what they truly are – nothing more then animals. We butcher other animals for our consumption. We will choose and smash a squirrel in the road instead of swerving which may cause damage for our precious cars. We will curse a deer for front-end damage. Atheism and related subject research led me down a soul-less journey away from human compassion. Atheists here have always stayed away from this point of mine. If something is mentioned, it is like Tom’s (“atheist…who happily helps others without counting up the points that will warrant salvation…”)
That is bullcrap, Tom.  For one thing, when I do good for others (and I am an atheist), I get the feeling like it is stemming from all that “love thy neighbor, thy brother etc…”  stuff that was instilled and programmed into me. And, if it is not originating from all that false biblical brainwashing, I realize that it originates from passed genes of empathy like emotions, instincts, involuntary actions and behavior….If you smile Tom at someone while passing by, you expect a smile in return. You are actually smiling for that returned pleasure. I am not that book smart, Tom, but please try not to insult my intelligence with mumble jumble. You may not believe in a heaven but if an atheist does good for another, there is a reason for it. Why do good anyway? Our instincts tell us otherwise – unless we actually get some satisfaction from it. Even if it simply feels good to do good for someone, there is selfishness that too. Without believing that humans are “God’s chosen species”, Tom as an atheist, has no reason to treat humans any different than that catfish under my fillet knife.

Tom / Sned,

You both pointed out that your two wives were Catholic but quickly tried to steer the attention to the fact that they left the Church because they disagreed and/or were better than it. You can not do that…ignore my main point that Sned (and Tom) found goodness in these Catholic women. You can not rule out their upbringing so easily. Your wives were good people at the time of marriage. Did the Church do them any good? You seem to bite the head that fed you. The Church and their (church going parents) raised them well. Did they not? See, Sned, I am not defending the Catholic Church, I am and have always just simply tried to have an honest discussion. I see the whole picture and try not to dismiss and omit details that exist. And for this, you label me as a confused person or simply not an atheist.  Sned, you label theists and religion as the reason that nations and people sat idling on the sidelines. You included America but then when we finally did step in, you say it was for another reason – fear. You can not have it both ways all the time. The other European nations had fear too but could do nothing. They were victims too. Americans were / are religion in our historical time when it is convenient for you to make points for atheism.  For all our bad, you blame our instilled religious intolerant selves. For any good, you attribute it to something else.
I am not promoting religion as the only source of good deeds but rather trying to be fair and honest.
You will never know what type of person that your wife would have been if she was an atheist in this country and at your present time. Why ? Because she was raised a Catholic Christian. Please do not forget this for she may not believe anymore, may not agree with their views, may be unsure what to believe, may be simply trying to appease you…whatever it may me. Your wife was raised a certain way and that is who she is. Her childhood and upbringing is and was a one time deal.  You can only be proud of one self – one time in life – and YOU are a very lucky man that she has given that up for you. She may have left “the bs” of what she no longer believes in, but she has also given up her “self” for you. She was taught well Sned and she reminds me of my mom. You should tell her you love her greatly.

Reit1 challenged me with a question if I would have taken Hitler out. Well, Reit1, hundreds of thousands of Afghans and Iraqis have and are dying. Would you have stopped it yourself if you and George were together at a college party and you found yourself alone with the “little guy”? If you could see the future, would you have put a plug in his oil machine? Let me ask you Annie. What is the difference between an oven or a deathly hot shower and a smart drone missile? Please do not simply put Bush and Hitler as one evil thing and that is that. No, my point is much deeper then that. Hitler was at war and became a legendary villain because of the ways he did things but also it was because he lost the war. Killing is killing – women, children in homes with an American missile or in a death camp under German rule – no difference to me. Our presidential leader today is honored with a noble peace prize as his decisions cause death to children, men and women around the world. Why is this – and Hitler is labeled a monster instead? I am not pro-Hitler, anti- Bush or anti-Obama. We are not at war today because of religion, 9/11, Hitler, Bush or Obama. One will see a good father or uncle and another will see an evil monster. One will see religion, one will see oil, one will see aggressive and another will see fear. One will see money making and another will see lives saved. How bout Barack, Annie? Could you have done that courageous deed back in an early fund raiser here in Chicago? Hand in Hand with his new wife?

I hope not, Reit1. Because one monstrous villian is another person’s role model.

I was not defensive.  Actually very objective and factual about Israel, or as it should be Palestine, a country that was, before 1946, relatively speaking, a lot more peaceful when it was peopled by very mixed races, diverse sects, and faiths living in one country.

Tom, I was just making a passing comment about NYC.  Boots or no boots.  I was just giving the opinion of a person from Tel-Aviv. But you certainly were defensive on that account.  Hmmm.

Gut, skull?  Neither are actually working muscles, Tom.  But it was a cute little attempt at another slap.

Hi Mike!  Might I just add: you’re so emotional.  Oh well.

“a call to arms”.  That must have been me.  The atheist who believes in this.  Yes!!  Let me ask you something..and please answer.  If you had known before the Holocaust what Hitler was about to do, would you have killed him and taken up arms against his followers?  You see, I love people, so I would have had to kill the son of a bitch.  But that’s just me…godless..allah-less atheist.  On the other hand, the sweet, happy-clappy religious people are the ones who were always incensed by Jews..and they still are.  They hate people and are intolerant.  I don’t care for the religious because I am better than they are.  Truth! However, should they come to see real truth (and I noticed you spoke greatly of it as if you’re the truth guru, all the while upholding the RCC) I would gladly forgive them.  I wonder how many Jews Hitler would have forgiven?  Or Islam..how many xians and Jews would they forgive without forcing them to become Muslim?

Yeaaaaa.  We know the answer.  that’s why I am better. Cheers!

I don’t think I have knowledge of this Mike.  Well as we say down under.“Seems to have a few Roos loose in the top paddock.”

The arrogance of these people in imagining for one moment that their screwed up lives with all the fears instilled into them is HAPPIER than an atheist’s who happily helps others without counting up the points that will warrant salvation. (From what?)

Now my late Quaker wife was, when I married her, a Catholic.  She became enlightened, without my aid may I add. Tried the Baptists but after several years, which included teaching Sunday School, decided that their unbridled hatred of Catholics, most of her friends were R C, was just not Christian.
The Quakers. Well if ever there was a born Quaker it was Eileen. They don’t ask of one to believe anything except Peace and Love with no violence.
She, nor they, ever tried to convert me. Then neither did my Fundamentalist Preacher nor Muslim Imam friends.

Excuse me Mike.. Hitler WAS a Catholic to the very end. read Mein Kampf, so was most of Germany with the northern part Lutheran.  Hitler justified his attitude with the, then, Roman Catholic official position on Jews.  They had killed Jesus so were all pariahs. They conveniently ignored Jesus, his father and mother were Jews.
The hatred of Jews wasn’t ignored by the moderate German populace. They enthusiastically embraced it, primarily I hasten to add, because of indoctrination and propaganda.

Reit1/Veronica

You were on the money regarding. “It goes with extreme groups who see the world differently to others.”

Just as the American public enthusiastically swallow the propaganda against Iraq, Iran, or any other perceived enemy.
There is a similar situation in America today as with the Third Reich. Belittling a nation for its ideology, be it religious or political, espousing, particularly in the military, racial, national,religious, and philosophical superiority.

I think you go off half cocked without reading fully my ponderings. I repeatedly asked you where have I ever said I accept “Lay down” to the lunatic fringe of Islam?  Never.

You think with your gut?  Most atheist I know calmly consider with the contents of their skull. Most atheists would evaluate the evidence presented, analyse,then give an opinion based on the proffered proof, not reject pontifically that which you find
unacceptable.  Therein lies a difference with Sned.

Even on New York, you jump in wearing boots instead of glasses, I did say it was 1944/5, probably before you were born. Thereafter New York actually went into a steep criminal decline, including many of N Y’s “Finest.”
Later on drastic measures were introduced which reversed the trend. There was a period when the N Y subway was practically a no go area. That it is not the same today is to be commended.  But it wasn’t always so.  Tel Aviv may be alive and civil.  Pity the sentiments don’t extend to the Palestinians, especially the ones who have had their homes and land, and nationality stolen from them.  It may be well to remember that the genesis of modern day terrorism could easily be attributed to David Ben Gurion and the Israeli Stern Gang.

Folk 91.

Peculiar little post. I presume English is not your native tongue.  FOREX. In Australia it is a very popular brand of beer. Well I think it is actually Fourex. Not being a drinker, it doesn’t make much impact.

Aleichem shalom. Tom E

Mike…let’s see it must be months since you posted…you must be waiting for me to bring you up. So let me respond to you as I always have…again you’re not sure who you are. Believer. None Believer. Chose one. What are you today?

If you correctly read my posts below a. I disagreed with Veronica (an atheist) and agreed with Tom Edgar.(An atheist) Where’s your comprehension?

b. We (USA) knew Jews were being slaughtered in 1939 and did nothing about it for years.The point is it was Christians who killed the Jews. It was Catholicism that had been preaching anti semetism for 2000 years. One couldn’t be a Jesuit with Jewish blood until well after WWII. How’s that for fear and hatred? I wasn’t talking about a war Mike but about a slaughter of innocents by Christians.
  We didn’t get into the war to stop the slaughter, we got into it to save our asses. Stop making a fool out of yourself.
  The anti gay…anti gay marriage movement is primarily from the half gay Roman Catholic hierarchy and now the right wing fundies. My wife was never anti semitic, or anti gay and is pro choice. She saw the lies. And she saw fit to marry someone who wouldn’t put up with all that crap. She turned her back on it Mike. You put your foot inside a Catholic Church and you and your dear sweet innocent Mom…like it or not..are witnesses for a religion that hates, and abuses. It’s a vote for. Nothing less. Your mother could be the kindest person on the planet,but if she ignores the RCC crap…she votes for it and so do you. Go read a book by Gary Wills (He’s a Catholic by the way)

We’re in Iraq with no reason whatsoever. How many times did you vote for the moron?  Go reread my posts below…and get a life. Oh yes…and thanks for reminding me who you are. Sorry your dad died. Sorry your mom’s a sweetheart but remains clueless…I have one in my family too..what are you gonna do? And stop thinking that ending WWII was an American religious crusade to save the Jews. Good lord man where have you been all your life? Oh yes RCC has soup kitchens and helps the poor…just remember Mother Theresa, who will be made a saint, no doubt died and atheist because she had too many prayers of hope for a dying child answered with a “no.” She learned about life the hard way. You and I have it easy. Maybe I have a better imagination? You just see the pretty paved streets. I know better. We now have a billion people malnourished…...How do you handle that one?

Sned,

You and I though will continue to live our lives in complete frustration. You and I will hold some sort of anger in our hearts toward others who religiously preach what they know not. You will continue this fight with these people till the day that you die. On that day, you will have no hope but rather a satisfaction that your struggle and difficulties of this life has finally come to an end. I suspect that you will die a very sad angry man. Maybe, your inner thoughts are angry that a person like my mom may die with a faint smile on her face instead.  But, anyway, that’s enough about my mom.
“Let’s get back to Hitler and Germany..” (sned). 

Sure, Sned lets get back to Hitler and Germany.

“One fact stands out that can’t be denied.
Germany was a Christian nation and that religion failed to stop the bloodshed,
failed to stop the discrimination and proved what cowards people can become
under pressure…”(sned)

You at the protestant time…along with the other majority of Christian American soldiers….put a stop to hitler/germany and japan. Connect the dots, sned. Read your above words then read mine. Then repeat the process again and again. I say this because you never never get any of my stories and points throughout our years together. Read then reread….

Such as with my example about your wife’s catholic personality…, you fail to connect your dots.
Your wife was raised a catholic. Back then, your wife must have had goodness in her for you to be attracted to her and for you to marry her later yet. Sure, easily omit your wife’s catholic upbringing and easily attach Hitler’s. Your eyes are not completely open, Sned, to all around you.  (read and reread)

You attack a religious poster with a false name as a lying hypocrite and embrace and support another atheist doing the same with no problem. You see an atheist with violence and hate in their hearts and with a call to arms and you passively and cowardly say nothing. See a theist with the same and you are the first to stand and fight against him. Connect the dots sned…and YOU will finally realize that what you believe in is not really what you believe in.
Read and reread – I will stop here for you to digest these few simple points.

And, sure thanks, my catholic mom is doing fine – still trying to cope with the hard loss of my dad. And, it is good to hear that your catholic wife is doing the same. I am sure she is doing fine and most likely trying to cope with your loss (of happiness in life).

I do wish you the best in life, sned. The truth is not the best for you. The Truth is also not the best for you. The Truth is the best for my mom. What is the best for you though, Sned?

“You accuse me, without foundation, of being somebody else, then won’t accept a plethora of evidence to the contrary. This impugns my integrity, something I hold dearly.”

Well, Tom, what can I tell you? I always go with my gut, and my gut tells me something is amiss.  It has never failed me but I have failed plenty..everytime I ignored it.

By all means let’s all roll over for Islam because only SOME are extremeists.  Well, only some of Germany was extreme, too..at first..so it goes with the extreme groups who see the world differently than others.  Their moderates are easily led to slaughter people for a cause.
As for NYC, my boss, a doctor from Israel, has a practice in NYC and where I live, and she swears that Tel-Aviv is much more alive and civil.  I wouldn’t know not having been to Tel-Aviv.  But I do know that they call NYC the “safest big city in the world.”

Sned.

I understand that N Y C has improved in recent years.
I was there in 1944/5.  Docking in Pier 90. International Berth. It was unusual for a little 12,000 ton ship but we were on a brand new British design that addressed the problems associated with the Liberty Ships and T 2 Tankers. i.e their tendency to break in half.We were visited by U S N top brass.

The overhead transit system, just outside the gates of the terminal, had precious little lighting beneath, it was an area where drunken, or careless sober seamen, and longshoremen were regularly mugged.
Walking from there up to Times Square was also an area in which care had be taken.  Being from London meant I had built in to me survival tactics.  e.g,. walk on the road, or at least the outer edge of the sidewalk, so that you weren’t exposed to any
denizen of the darkened doorways. As a seaman you rapidly learned to avoid danger areas.

My one desire is to recapture some of that magic, as a seventeen year old, I felt sailing up the Hudson on a freezing ice floe littered river, seeing Liberty.  It, and following American experiences, convinced me that I would never live in Britain again. I’ve always had, since then, a love of the American people, but a distaste for the American system. But then I didn’t like the British either.
Where is their a perfect way? I know it not. Or as the despicable Winston Churchill said.  “Democracy is a terrible system but it is the best so far.” or words to that effect.  Th unfortunate thing is nobody
seems to realise that no country has ever been truly Democratic. Having periodic, purportedly democratic, elections has only ever meant our next set of dictators are voted in instead of having them imposed.

I think Tom is genuine and that what he says makes some sense, although his comment about being unsafe in NYC is a bit odd as you have to go out of your way to get mugged in that town….I worked there for many years and still visit now and then.

What he’s saying isn’t much different than one of our off and on regulars who kept defending his Mom for going to church…and wasn’t too sure what he believed. Tom is a die hard atheist. Quakers are non violent…and his wife’s demeanor didn’t hurt him. MY wife is much the same. Raised Catholic and left the church to marry me but has never called herself an atheist and has no interest in reading the stuff I read…but she does hear me, and I think she’s more open minded than she was.

Tom’s been around for a long time, and I don’t believe he’s Frank Goodman..and if he is, he is playing a different game. Frank was awful.(Who is Tom Gardner anyway?)

I also believe that what Tom says is true. Most people just want to live with some dignity and die. Liberals in this country (and I’m one of them) aren’t nuts enough to act like the right wing nuts. That is why Kerry lost. He didn’t fight back. The loonies march and make noise in a heartbeat. We’re too wimpy.

It has been my theory for decades that Rome fell because it became too soft. That the mono minded barbarians had focus and purpose…which usually wins out over people who want to live a the good life.(At the expense of everyone else. It’s happening here! Right now Discover car went from maybe 10% to 25% interst overnight when they were an d are borrowing money at under 1%) Sad but true.

The alpha group wins. Hitler came very close to winning. The technologies the Germans developed were incredible.
We can’t ignore the extremists in any way shape or form. But not every Muslim can be labeled as such. For pete’sake they are blowing each other up for what? And we are directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of more Iraqi’s than Saddam caused. (Iraq-Iran war deaths not included) What did we gain? What did they gain? And our soldiers are handing out the NT? Egaaad. My take…Tom makes many valid points.

If Shia law was practiced in the US we’d be reading about it every day. I’ve only heard one one incident..a young Canadian woman murdered by her uncle..and shamefully never tried..but they had tons of evidence against him)

I give you no apology because YOU misunderstood me.  You’re as crazy as Islam.  haha

As for your address…it means nothing. You could be anyone in cyberworld.  But..um..thanks

You’re just tooo cushy about Islam to be believable Tom. Particularly at a time when they are so dangerous and thriving.

An apologist for xianity?  hahaaa!!  That one got a real guffaw out of me.  But, you’ve been through the Civil War, WW2, Vietnam and you even know Gandhi…so you must be right. :D

“The Third Reich’s Holocaust was motivated and carried out by, mainly, Catholics and Lutherans.Religiously motivated. Read Mein Kampf.
Remember in this period, and for many years after, the official R C attitude relating to Jews and Jesus.”

All in the past, Tom.  Xianity will never allow for that again.  No way.  I don’t need to be an apologist for such a ridiculous religion and I abhor what they did in the PAST.  But interestingly enough, you’ve missed the point completely.  Islam is doing TODAY what xianity did in the past.  So, now I have to ask you to try and not be an apologist for Islam.  Yourtrue colours are showing.

No I had no idea you were originally a Catholic but now I see that in the old saying a truism.  A Catholic Priest who defrocked himself just ahead of the Curia here in Australia,  when interviewed by a well known Australian atheist Radio Personality who asked “Why not come all the way and join the enlightened?”, answered.  “You can take the boy out of Catholicism but you can’t take Catholicism out of the boy.” So I was right, I did detect correctly, remnants of religiosity.  Fundamentalism? Well I have always viewed R C as being a fundamentalist religion.  I don’t know how much more primitive fundamentalist you can be than believing in the things they do.

Me into Politics?  Too late.  Many years ago I was asked to run for Federal Government by the Labor Party branch, where I was a member.  My late wife, at the time, was the Federal District President of the Party.  I told her of the Branch request.  Her reply.  “I thought your ambition was that you wanted to be respected and respectable.”  Ended a political career before it started, and probably saved a marriage. She was right once again.  Can only remember her one mistake, marrying me. She deserved better.

Either you or somebody else said before, that I am Frank Gardner reincarnate.  Now here is my e mail address .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) I gave this once before, it was checked by someone, the au denotes Australia.  Frank lives in Florida.  He is younger than I, (not much) he is better educated than I. (A lot) I live in the mountains in Queensland near the N S W border on a small property,(30 acres) semi isolated. Frank is religious, I am not
You can Google my place # 243 Limberlost Road )Queensland.(243 denotes 2.43km from highway intersection) Nearest town Stanthorpe.(pop 6,000)  It is on the northern side of the road, third property along with two homes, two sheds and a cabin way up the back.  I’m a widower, Frank is not. I’m handsome,. well I used to be. Not sure about Frank. He is an American and I’m a (thankfully) born again Australian. Enough to satisfy you? Please explain why you think I didn’t know his name, I checked,I used it in full, so I don’t accept the appellant “Lame” ....

Oh! and I am a long term member of The Australian Skeptics Inc.

I’ll accept your apology in advance .

I’m sorry If I am being a bore but I have to add a little more.

Reit1.

Your observation that Christians, unlike Muslims, have progressed and will not practice the atrocities of the latter deserves a response.

The Third Reich’s Holocaust was motivated and carried out by, mainly, Catholics and Lutherans.Religiously motivated. Read Mein Kampf.
Remember in this period, and for many years after, the official R C attitude relating to Jews and Jesus.

The abortion clinic murders, more recently, in the
U S A are overwhelmingly by Fundamentalist Christians. I repeat the Oklahoma bombing was Christian Fundie motivated.

Undoubtedly many will say these acts are ones committed by demented, and distorted minds, not consistent with the “Moderates” in Christianity.
I agree, but then, when were atrocities committed by sane people of any faith?

The Texas “Government” incineration was Christians against an unacceptable Christian sect.

Hutsi and Tutsis In Rwanda and Burundi where Christians and Muslims murdered millions in the name of religion.

Pol Pot the demented, murdering, Roman Catholic.

G W B the equally demented Fundamentalist who publicly avowed he was on a “Crusade” that was Biblically inspired, resulting in over a million deaths in Iraq. Mind you true to his nature, not personally involved. (Again)

I daresay I could dig up more but you get the picture. Stop being an apologist for Christianity.
Being an atheist doesn’t mean acceptance or denial of of any particular sect.  It is just being without a God.  The various religions are only peripheral.

An atheist views ALL religions as being superfluous
and surplus to requirements, some are of a lesser or greater problem. Atheists are not required to defend one against the other, nor to take sides in their disputations.  They are quite capable of doing to each other what we shouldn’t condone or assist.

Tom, I beg your pardon.  Either I struck a nerve with you, or I didn’t make myself plain enough.  First let me clear something up.  While I appreciate your back-handed slap regarding me being a politician, I never could be one.  Clearly I am not nearly as clever as you are.  Maybe you would like to step up to that podium.  There’s an idea!

As far as “the elements” of fundamentalism..you’re just splitting hairs for the sake of an argument.  As for everything else I stated and you then repeated, you took it entirely wrong than what I meant.  So, let me be more plain.  Good must always conquer evil.  If it cannot, then evil prevails and people suffer.  Full stop.  Here:  I will copy and paste exactly what I said for your reference: “Right must always win over what is obviously wrong.” 

Perhaps for you sake I should have qualified that statement by reminding you that atrocities happen if right does NOT win over evil. Native Americans are a PERFECT example of this..thank you.

I do not know who Frank Gardner is, but I suspect he is you.  I always have.  Pretending not to know his last name?  Lame.  I find it much more interesting that an atheist (like you say you are) is not highly concerned with the state of Islam and it’s plan to ‘take over the world” right now.

I was a Catholic.  I feel you knew that, though. :D Are we clear, “mate?”

Reit1

I didn’t expect you to agree that you were wrong and it is your right to refute my observations. I think politics should be your true vocation.
Address a debatable area but absolutely avoid at all costs non defendable points. I see no retraction of the ridiculous “Disarming and disbanding a religion.”

You say “The non religious ideology opposed to the religious crazy ideology.”  Hells bells where are the former? certainly not in the U S A. Sned had it right there in his latest.
The Irish analogy may not have been the best example of a common sense, and peaceful solution to a vexatious long term problem to you, I disagree,  even better is Ghandi and his eventual success against the British. Before you refute this, remember I spent time there during and after the “Raj”

Interesting you still think you are correct stating that the people who are right will always win over the obviously wrong in spite of my Vietnam and Native American observation. I invite a response.

I didn’t say you were a “Fundie” or came from that background. I said I seem to detect ELEMENTS giving an entirely different meaning. Yes you would make a wonderful Politician.  Ignore, when pointed out, any inconsistencies.Interpret differently what is said. Never once did I say I would accept any part of Islam, nor did I mention Sharia law or that I would lay back and take it. My WW2 record will show that Iam disinclined to “Take It” although,in retrospect, I think I was foolish, I was involved in my very early teens.
My Jewish ancestry doesn’t stop me from accommodating friendship with Germans so why should my atheism prevent me having an e mail friendship with Frank Gardner? Thanks for reminding me, I am long overdue in answering his last.

Once we had a German lady staying with us in Australia,(1970’s) my wife had visited her in Germany. In conversation about the atrocities committed on the aboriginal population by the early British, my wife said,unthinkingly. “Does Germany have anything in the past like that?” The response was a shocker.  “Well we killed a few million Jews but unfortunately didn’t finish the job.” I held my tongue, something for which I am not known.  Quite a bit later I let slip, deliberately, my Jewish ancestry,  It was nice to see the silent squirming.

What I do not understand is how somebody professing atheism can be so condemnatory of Islam, bearing in mind I am opposed to this ideology as much as I am to the others, but then become very defensive of Protestantism,  I do detect an antipathy to R.C.that is inconsistent with a true atheist.

The history of the U S A, and other countries,is replete with various denominations of every faith trying to inject their religious moires into the fabric of government.  It is imperative we resist this from EVERY religion. If I can twist the famous quotation. ” I disagree, but will defend to the death your right to say whatever you wish, but will defend to death my right to resist application of your ideologies upon me.” This isn’t applicable just to Islam but to all religions.

Once again you use terminology often used disparagingly by Christians of atheists.  i.e He is an admitted atheist.  Re Frank Gardner an admitted Muslim.  It is meant to convey affiliation with a less than desirable section of society, with the person to whom reference is being made is not ashamed to be known as one.  Now I know that Frank never attends a Mosque I would put him in the category of the average Limey C o E That is believe but not conform. I think Frank’s intellect stops him from becoming a religious zealot. His long life service in the American Military should earn some respect.I don’t agree with Frank any more than I disagree with you, I fail to see why it should be a bar to friendship. My Quaker wife is a case in point.

Sned.  Last post. Bloody good one mate.Wish I had written it.

A friend e mailed this to me…worth a look.
P.S. I agree with Veronica that the moderates ultimately fall prey to fanatics. Germany is the proof.

From and entry on the Raytheon board.
The Tea Bagger “Cult”.. .
  14-Dec-09 06:54 am  
“Believe it. A significant portion of fundamentalists today have become seduced by a form of symbol worship. “Idolatry” is defined as blind and excessive devotion to a person or thing. If an individual or group of individuals are caught up in a collective act of blindly venerating the same object or person, this common bond is defined as a “cult.”

Twenty-first century America is encumbered by a mass cult which is stripping away the nation’s constitutional rights, civil liberties, and potential greatness. Ironically, it is also threatening the very religious freedom for which they claim to cherish dearly.

Symbols mean more than substance today. Little flag pins arouse more adoration than real acts of valor. FOX’s America preferred to investigate (and lie about) John Kerry’s medals than George Bush’s AWOL, cocaine use, and draft-dodging. FOX’s America preferred to perpetrate the Obama birth certificate myth than investigate torture and treason. Barack without a tie in the Oval Office elicited more outrage than Blackwater’s murders. It is symbolism the right-wing is after, not reality. Surface outweighs substance..

Not only the flag, but the cross and Bible are erected as idols. And sadly, the national idolatry cult has racial overtones – like the original fascist movement 80 years before. Nazis venerated the flag, the swastika, Mein Kampf, and the eagle. The American right-wing venerates the flag, the cross, the Bible and the eagle. The parallels can’t be more apparent.”

SNED,

By all means do study Islam.  They are not going to evolve in their way of thinking the way that xianity has.  And at least (at LEAST) xianity has evolved in the sense that they are not thrilled by the cutting off of heads, and the stifling of sex.  In fact, I think they enjoy it the most. :D I meet xians everyday whose persuasions I would have never known if I hadn’t said I was an atheist.  They aren’t much different and are highly unlikely to DEvolve into what they were during the Reformation, burning of witches, etc.  No.  That’s over for xianity.  Now they’re thing is mercenary.  While I believe there should be laws against that in the name of god and religion, the truth is, there is nothing against the law about being a salesman, which these t.v. charlatans are! 

As for Islam…it’s another story.  She’s behind by 500 years.  Still primitive and backward…and very, very violent.  Do I really need to state this??  :D

Tom,

No, I was never a fundie in the sense that I believe you mean it.  But what can I tell you?  I disagree with absolutely everything you just posted.  And now I feel vindicated for my skepticsm of you and your love of Frank Goodman, an admitted Muslim.

The fact is, Tom, moderates, not obvious extremists, are the ones who will uphold the laws that will either make or break a society.  If Germany had disagreed with Hitler and his cohorts, they would have never killed 6 million Jews.  But that wasn’t the case.  Those on the fence listened in and bought his ideas hook line and sinker.  The same with Martin Luther.  If the moderates had not listened to him, the Reformation would have never taken place.  It couldn’t have.  One monk with big ideas couldn’t have done much against the very powerful RCC.

Lay there.  Take it until your antagonised.  Absolutely.  But by that time, when it’s too late because you’re absolutely overpowered by extremists and the moderates they’ve convinced, what are you going to do?  Nothing.  You will be just like a Jew in WW2.  And that is the danger of what you’re saying.

Disband and disarm does not always mean war.  But in this case…the non-religious ideology vs the religious crazy theology must win out at whatever cost..and it cannot be compared to N. Ireland.  Now, you made ME smile on that one.

Tom makes some good points. I have yet to study Islam as much as I’d like to, but I do recall that interest was not to be charged in making loans…which is the total reason we’re in the mess we’re in. It does seem that Christians and Jews have gone beyond the silly rules of the OT…which called for the murder under the must mundane conditions. But one problem with the Islam is that it has never gone through a reformation which took some of the craziness out of the Catholic religion. On the other hand I listen to a Catholic radio station frequently for it’s music…and it makes me cringe to hear the crap they still promote. And soon a relic from Christ’s cross will be on display in the USA..without the word “alleged.”

Listened to the works of Doctors without Borders…One of the surgeons interviewed sounded like he had lost his religion after seeing the suffering and brutality in Africa. Things the normal human beings in a civilized country doesn’t see…and like Mother Theresa…once you see tons of suffering and equal amount of unanswered prayer your life view changes as does your belief in god.

I am hardly able to believe that I wrote too many characters then when I tried to subtract some, it froze.
Started again, and had 3,000 characters this time only to have son wanting machine, he lost it for me, third go, with 80% completed we were hit by the heaviest storm, I’ve ever seen, panicky pulling of all power points, I lost the lot again. This is my fourth attempt and it is becoming more abridged at each effort.

Reit1. You are walking a fine line with such contempt for only Islam. The Koran upholds Jihad?
Undoubtedly, just as much as The Bible.
Do I detect the elements of a Fundie upbringing with a lack of ability to fully let go of religious prejudice?

The Bible is full of injunctions to kill in the name of God. Kill all who practice or follow other religions.Worship another God, Commit the crime of being found no longer a virgin at betrothal.
This is only a few of many.  References 2 Chronicles 15 v12/13 Deuteronomy 22 v 20/21 13 v7/12 17 v2/5.
Only recently a Californian Preacher wanted it to be a criminal act not to attend Church.  One Pacific Island State actually does have the law.
I point out the worst terrorism, apart from 9/11, in the USA was the U S Government’s Agents (Christian?) on David Koresh, and the Oklahoma City Bombing by
U S Christians. That is unless you think that the Incinerating of humans in Texas wasn’t Terrorism.  War IS terrorism.  If you don’t agree, then to war you’ve never been.  I have.

Your use of the terminology “Fringe Moderates” shows your bigotry. It should be “Fringe Extremists” I have been, repeatedly, to about a dozen Islamic nations, without exception I have felt safer than in many “Christian” nations, including New York. I found, regardless of religion or race, most people only wanted a better life, and weren’t interested in very much else. I will accede that this safety in Muslim countries has been drastically changed, and primarily occasioned by the interventionist activities of American/European, and dare I say, Christian nations into areas where they have little
understanding of, nor sympathy for Muslims

I can hardly believe anyone with a moderate education would say “Disarm and disband Islam.” This would be like saying at the end of WW2 we should disarm and disband Catholicism, Lutheranism Shintoism and Buddhism when we defeated Italy Germany, and Japan. I think your dear friends of America, the Saudis might object.
It seems you have no problem in swallowing the propaganda of your Government or its publicist Murdoch/Fox to take up arms and pursue the American way of settling arguments anywhere with force.

Ireland went four hundred years with sword, bullets and bombs until a Protestant and a Catholic woman came together, starting a dialogue that with the later aid of an atheist woman Member of Parliament has resulted in the most peaceful period yet.  Violence never solves an argument nor problem. For a minute fraction that America has spent financially ruining themselves, and the world, with armed conflict they could have solved the 3rd world nations problems, whilst actually improving their own country.

The Dutch and British are sowing the seed they planted in their colonies.  I well remember the club signage banning “Natives and dogs.” But as Salman Rushdie put it of troublesome immigrants, words to the effect “Why do they bring with them the baggage and problems from which they flee?”

When you said. Right must always win,over what is obviously wrong” I smiled, thinking. “The Vietnamese would agree with you there, but the Native American surely not.”

Yes. I think my reservations of you before are vindicated.  I am an atheist, and my antipathy to any religion isn’t variably selective, nor is my affection or otherwise towards the different religionists. If they don’t antagonise me no problem.If they do, different story.

Tom, you’re walking a dangerously fine line by disclosing such a lack of contempt for Islam.  The Qur’aan clearly upholds Jihad.  Full stop.  And whatever the moderate is doing today in your neighbourhood, it will be undone with bloodshed when Jihad is called for in their minds.  You spoke plainly of extreme actions against Islam only having a reciprocal outlook.  Does that mean that Dutch and British civilians should just sit back and take the abuse that is going on right now in their countries?  Is it fair and just to say that Islam has the right to be extremist as long as they have fringe moderates, while civilians are being killed..everyday by this mad camp of idiots?  Right must always win over what is obviously wrong.  And if it means taking up arms against the oppressors AND THEIR MODERATES…so be it.  Should any innocent wish to leave Islam, they should be allowed before we the people disarm and disband Islam.

Another Holocaust in the name of nonsense should never come about.  And anyone who lays down for it and who gets trampled because of their apathy…way it goes!  I feel the same way as I do those who didn’t care during the Holocaust..or were too afraid.  Maybe it’s easy for me to type this out…but I swear by whatever is sacred..I would not bow to these fuckers.  I would to see them killed first and I would also die first before I would live under Sharia Law or any other law of theirs.  The days of wine and rosey roses if over!!!  Why aren’t people waking up??!!?  Xianity is bullshit, too.  That’s true.  But they will not likely devolve.  Meanwhile, Islam has no intention of Evolving..and I doubt they will.  Way it goes.

Reit1/Veronica.
Maybe I have been influenced by my late, wife and her Quaker affiliates. I truly believe that there are many Muslims who abhor their extremist brother’s behaviour. Just as Quakers, or for that matter any other Christian sect’s adherents, who disavow any connection with the extremists claiming to be of that faith.

In my previous posting I mentioned my two dear departed friends, both of them leaders in their respective faiths, both of them having an ideology and a character so close to my late wife’s Quaker one of Love, Peace, and Non Violence. A Muslim, a Nazarene and a Quaker.

I must admit, that from the same Mosque, where my friend was the Imam, attends one of the most despicable families in my State of Queensland.
“Smiler” Deen was loved by all who knew him, this family is reviled. I can, but won’t, name many Christians who fit the the same description.

I have acquired a more peaceful and less aggressive
attitude to life.  Involvement in WW2, and other areas,46 years with a Quaker wife,influenced by those two Religious leaders,Old Age, have all helped,
along with many and varied experiences.

Unlike my late wife who.  “Saw that of God in every person.” I am a born Skeptic. Most people are genuine, having no intention of malicious intent towards another, regardless of religion, political or philosophical differences. Some, no matter the ethnicity or beliefs can never be trusted.

I don’t believe in turning the other cheek. If I am attacked or even have the belief I am about to be.
Protect your sensitive areas. I will in all probability revert to my upbringing in S.E.London. The first commandment there being “Do unto others what he intends doing to you, but be first.”

An argument or difference of opinion cannot be proven by violence, it only proves a physical superiority, a la America’s ongoing international
colonialist, expansionist, aggression. Never does it convince the opponent of the correctness of the contrary opinion. This doesn’t mean violence can be
accepted without a reaction but it certainly does mean that a quiet and gentle approach never gives cause for a violent response, whilst it, I must point out, isn’t always the outcome.

A friend of mine many years ago from the tough area of Glasgow. “The Gorbals.” in a bar was approached by a very large Swede who belligerently asked” What are you looking at/”  Jock never looked for a fight so answered.  “I’m not sure,  never was good at conundrums.”  Well as Jock told it, the punch was proceeded by a slow delivery letter.  Jock’s wasn’t.  He used to be a sparring partner to the then world cruiser weight champion.  Sometimes the choice of words can prevent a violent response or actually initiate one.

Aggression towards Islam or any other religion, or philosophical outlook can only lead to a reciprocal response from extremists, with a Martins and McCoys continuation, until, just like the fabled Ozarkians.  Nobody can remember what the hell started the disagreement.

Thank you for that Jim.  And you are also spot on and right as rain, etc.  I just hope that you can remain clear when Islam comes for your head.  And they will.  So be prepared to be good to your fellow man when he places your head on the chopping block.  As for me, I will not roll over for religious freaks, and I don’t feel a great need to be nice to people for the sake of political correctness. I will fight with all I have.  And I will do it to the death.  Some people think some things are worth fighting for.  I believe some things are worth dying for even though this should not be the case.  I also believe some things are worth killing for…like you said..for my fellow man who is innocent. 

Thank you.

Oh dear My last posting was truncated. I know not how.
I also had a little one correcting a typo where I missed the a in atheism, changed the meaning, somehow this didn’t even travel.  Well! like religion it isn’t important, well not to me.

Reit1 or is it Veronica? I know thee not, but thank you for your kind words.  Nice to have a friend or two, at my advanced age I’m afraid most of mine have become dead or demented.  I deny either had anything to do with me.

Strangely I have found more replacement friends since I started this computer malarkey two years ago
albeit they are thousands of miles away.  I’ve also accumulated a few enemies but as they are all religious ones (and also a far distance away) they are of no consequence.

Two of my friends were a Fundamentalist (Church of the Nazarene) Pastor a remarkable lovable person, sadly dead.  I still carry on a sporadic literary connection with his wife.  The other was a Muslim Imam of a Brisbane Mosque.  He too has stopped breathing. Both of these gentlemen were remarkably similar in character. Neither ever tried to convert me.  I will admit John the Nazarene sometimes broke cover but never seriously.

Why is it that American “Believers” have to be so aggressively evangelical?
I used to take my Quaker wife to her Meeting House(She didn’t drive). Later when we moved to our mountain retreat the Quakers held small meetings here. I would do much of the catering. Live and let love. Well Quakers are Love and Peace.

In spite of my repetitive remarks about atheism being just No GOD and is not necessarily anti any particular religion, we still see the proselytising pundits pushing prayers and parables, quoting from various passages in their favourite portion of biblical fiction,fact,fabrication, and fable.

Could those who wish to accent their positive, please eliminate the negative just straighten up and fly right. (Apologies to the Andrews Sisters).

Christians become indignant at atheists who speak out, they all forget that most newspapers carry pages with “Church” meetings advertised. Usually unpaid.  Buildings throughout cities, towns and villages are festooned with images or billboards advertising their particular brand of merchandise,
all from properties, on which usually they are not paying property or income taxes.

Yes I accede many are supplying services to the community which, to my mind, should be supplied by Government via the taxpayer. I also draw attention many of these services, that should be given freely without strings attached, are often only supplied to those who conform, or sometimes ungraciously to those who won’t.

None of this has anything to do with atheism. We, who consider ourselves the enlightened ones, just have no belief in a God. Any God.  Why?  Well I for one, after travelling the world & having been involved in wars between humans, all professing some religion or other.  Whilst at sea, being at war with the elements, and at other times in personal combat of my own choosing. I have never been shown evidence that such a being has ever existed. Nor have I ever heard of a sane person ever actually seeing a God.

Show me the proof, and I’ll admit I goofed.

Hello! As usual, SNED..you’re spot on.  So are you, Tom.  I am beginning to like you even though I am still skeptical.  What can I say?  You said it well when you stated that not too many atheists are superstitious.  In fact, most of us are skeptics au naturale. 

SNED, you can call me Veronica if you like. :D I have missed you, but I have been reading.

Drew, who are you trying to convince?  There are photographs of Hilter and the Pope dining out together!!  These are authentic, and the Pope (father of xianity to you), did NOTHING to stop the Holocaust.  Your page is as silly as you are.  You have made up a new myth using the same old song and dance.  Only this one has your twist on it.

You have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but? :D haha!!  That’s just goofy.  You remind me of those zealots on YouTube who cannot stand the voice of an atheist saying “this guy is a charlatan and you are all buying it!”  Praise Jesus.  I am not buying any of it.  I don’t know how anyone could anymore.  Here’s what we all know for sure.  MEN have been telling stories, and spinning new spins on old stories for 10’s of thousands of years.  That is what we DO know. 

Cheers!

“Once we can look at religion objectively and impartially, it becomes entirely obvious that religion has all the characteristics of a form of insanity. To one degree or another the religious mind must accept, and believe in, another world; a supernatural or unnatural world, a world filled with all sorts of imaginary beings called gods, devils, angels, saints, demons, etc. These imaginary creatures are talked to, asked for favors, guidance, “signs”, or miracles, and then blamed or thanked for natural events that follow. Except for the cloak of religion, such beliefs and actions would otherwise cause an individual to be judged insane, and committed to an institution for treatment.”

-Emmet F. Fields

Unlike Sned.. I did visit the Web Site.

Statistics, like witnesses, have as many interpretations as there are interpreters.

Apart from the Poll being conducted for a religious organisation there was no way of knowing how the questions were presented.

From what I saw people who didn’t go to Church were interpreted as atheists.  Now I know of one Muslim who never goes to the Mosque, by this method he is an atheist.  In the U.K. where an estimated 30% are atheist, very few people in the remainder ever attend a Church, except for baptism, burial and betrothal.  Most of these, if asked, would claim affiliation with either R C of CoE, but according to the Poll they are theists, peculiar analysis.

I repeat ad nauseum, atheism is not about anti Christianity, or certainly not solely.  Simply we have found no reason, nor evidence for a belief in a God, any God.  Show the evidence supporting belief and atheism is no more.
It is the scientific way to disprove a theory/hypothesis. Find evidence supporting and negating, with the latter of most importance.

So by my statistical analysis of the Poll I extrapolate that religious Non Church goers are more superstitious than many Church attenders. I would dispute that atheists fit the findings. I have
never met an atheist who had any superstitions.  I suppose it is possible, but as a long time

Thank you Drew….again…copy your credentials and paste them here..I have no
desire to visit your web site. Part of that reason is paranoia.

Let’s get back to Hitler and Germany. One fact stands out that can’t be denied.
Germany was a Christian nation and that religion failed to stop the bloodshed,
failed to stop the discrimination and proved what cowards people can become
under pressure. And that failure continued in France and Poland and all those
countries that helped and or watched the Germans load Jews onto trains. (The
Poles were the worst of the lot..the French still have their head in the sand).

Since you quote anecdotes as proof, the books you reference probably do the
same…and draw conclusions like you did over the word “many” when specific
scientists claimed that many of their friends were believers…and you projected
“many” into unchartered territory which was just not permitted.

If one is a true believer he will twist and turn the truth till it comes out his way.
When in fact it all boils down to faith. It always does. I watched a show on NG
the other night on the books that never made it into the bible. One of the
experts claimed that there were no book/manuscript burnings in the 300 years
following the alleged death of Jesus. That totally contradicted the facts in a
book I read about Constantine authored by a minister. Constantine was so
upset by the quarrels among religious sects that he ordered texts burned on a
few occasions.  The reason I read books by educated Christians is because they
can’t deny all of history. And if anything, the history of Christianity is NEVER
taught in our churches. The bible is read as if it were written in a marshmallow
world… void of influences, void of the errors and additions of the scribes etc
etc etc.

Peer reviewed documents don’t reveal truths if the peers are of the same mind
set. So whatever comes out of Wheaton University, for example, is slanted from
the start.

But at least we know that non believers are not as whacked out in following the
paranormal as they might seem.  But you did buy into it. Thanks for taking the
time to understand my position.

Dear Drew—just toset your record straight on Herr Hitler.

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html

Copied from the above web site.

You will find it in Mein Kampf: “Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as
the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s Work.”

Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: “Christ was the
greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The
work that Christ started but could not finish, I—Adolf Hitler—will conclude.”

In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his
crusade. “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. “I am now as before a
Catholic and will always remain so,” he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals,
in 1941.

There was really no reason for Hitler to doubt his good standing as a Catholic.
The Catholic press in Germany was eager to curry his favor, and the princes of
the Catholic Church never asked for his excommunication. Religions encourage
their followers to hold authority in unquestioning respect; this is what makes
devout religionists such wonderful dupes for dictators.

Thank you for the great laugh. I did look at the WallStreet Journal link (the top
link in Drew’s post below) that reports on two studies that include atheists.
The point of the article implies that Atheists are more superstitious than
Christians.

Here again is an example of the abuse of statistics and Drew’s inability to deal
with them. Reported: ” 31% of people who never worship believe in the occult
and paranormal. That liberal Protestants and the irreligious are less resistant to
suppression than evangelical Christians.

Point #1. People who never worship aren’t all atheists. Many people who
believe in god never go to church.
Point #2. For Drew’s sake let’s assume all people who never worship ARE
atheists.
PONT #3. What does it mean when the more liberal you are, or the more
atheistic the more you believe in ghosts, the paranormal etc.

Believers versus non believers 8% of believers believe in the occult and
paranormal vs 31%. Difference 23% 

Liberal Christian versus Evangelical 36% versus 14%.  Net Difference 22% again.

Point #4. One can state then that if the studies were comparable on the
definition occult etc that moderate Christians and atheists are about equal in
paranormal stuff.

But here’s where the laughter comes in.  If I can lump Catholicism and right
wing Christianity in one lump , then the atheists would say that these people
believe in the following occult, paranormal,  pseudo-science and unproven
beliefs.

1. The belief in god - all of them father son and holy ghost.
2. The belief in the devil
3. That the host turns into flesh.
4. That the wine turns into blood.
5. Belief in a Virgin birth.
6. Belief in The soul.
7. Belief in Resurrection.
8. Belief that a dead man will return (It’s getting late for that one)
9. Belief in Exorcism.
10. Belief in that man roamed the world with the dinosaurs.
11. Belief in that the planet is 6000-10,000 years old.
12. Belief in that Adam had writing utensils and wrote down the story of he and
Eve.
13. Belief in that god answers prayers.(Mother Theresa learned otherwise)
14. That babies don’t go to heaven (or unbaptized babies…never get that
straight)
15. Belief that divorced people go to hell.
16. Belief that you can buy your way out of purgatory.
17. Belief in angels and some with rank over others.
18. Belief in the holy Ghost!
19. Belief in Life after death
20. Belief in Heaven
21. Belief in the Trinity (whatever that is)
22. Belief that Jesus went to South America. (Mormons)
23. Belief in miracles.

Please add to the above.

In other words Drew….the more religious you are the more you believe in
things you can’t prove. In addition the average Christian   believes in far more
of these things than non belivers who might believe in a couple of paranormal
things. How come? Because your beliefs are all related so it’s more likely you’ll
believe in more of them.

And you refer to peer reviewed studies? My sides are splitting!

Your turn.

Drew..I’m not interested in your web site…you demonstrated your inability to use
logic right here….and you can’t even answer questions about yourself . This is not
a place to advertise your failings, but you’ve done a good job of it.

If you have failed with us here…your web sight will also fail.
Good bye.

Good point Tom…it relates somewhat to what I said before, that even Drew is an
atheist when it comes to believing in the gods of other religions. There’s only one
difference between Drew and us….we include his religion among the others we
don’t believe in.

(And we both see that Drew has some logic problems that have apparently gone
untested in his schooling)

Drew…if you’re reading this…give us some background. Where are you from, how
old are you..what is your education,  what do you read watch or listen to for news, 
in what religion and sect were you raised…and do you have children?