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Response to Reader Comments and Criticsm

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Posted on Jan 26, 2006

By Sam Harris

While ”An Atheist Manifesto” received considerable support from readers of Truthdig, a variety of criticisms surfaced in the reader commentary.  I summarize and respond to some of these below:

1. Just because you haven’t seen God doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist.  Atheism, therefore, is as much an act of faith as theism is.

Bertrand Russell demolished this fallacy nearly a century ago with his famous teapot argument.  As his response appears to me to be perfect, I simply offer it here:

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

If a valid retort to Russell has ever seen the light of day, I’m not aware of it.  As I tried to make clear in my essay, the atheist is not in the business of making claims on insufficient evidence, he merely resists such claims whenever they appear on the lips of the faithful.  I don’t think it can be pointed out too often that the faithful do this as well. Every Christian knows what it is like to find the claims of Muslims—that the Holy Koran is the perfect word of God, that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, etc.—to be utterly incredible.  Everyone who is not a Mormon knows at a glance that Mormonism is bogus. And everyone of every religious denomination knows what it is like not to believe in Zeus. Everyone has rejected an infinite number of spurious claims about God.  The atheist rejects infinity plus one.

2. You will never get rid of religion, so criticizing it is just a waste of time.

I would be the first to admit that the prospects for eradicating religious dogmatism in our world do not seem good. Still, the same could have been said about efforts to abolish slavery at the beginning of the 19th century. Anyone who spoke about eradicating slavery in the United States around 1810 surely appeared to be wasting his time, and wasting it dangerously.  The analogy is not perfect, but it is suggestive.  If we ever do transcend our religious bewilderment, we will look back upon this period in human history with absolute astonishment.  How could it have been possible for people to believe such things in the 21st century? How could it be that they allowed their world to become so dangerously fragmented by empty notions about God and Paradise? The answers to these questions are as embarrassing as those that sent the last slave ship sailing to America as late as 1859 (the same year that Darwin published “The Origin of Species").

3. Religion is our only source of morality. Without it, we would be plunged into a secular moral chaos.

This concern is so widespread that I have responded to it at some length.  A version of this response will soon be published in the magazine Free Inquiry (www.secularhumanism.org) as “The Myth of Secular Moral Chaos.”

One cannot criticize religious dogmatism for long without encountering the following claim, advanced as though it were a self-evident fact of nature: there is no secular basis for morality. Raping and killing children can only be really wrong, the thinking goes, if there is a God who says it is.  Otherwise, right and wrong would be mere matters of social construction, and any society will be at liberty to decide that raping and killing children is actually a wholesome form of family fun. In the absence of God, John Wayne Gacy would be a better person than Albert Schweitzer, if only more people agreed with him.

It is simply amazing how widespread this fear of secular moral chaos is, given how many misconceptions about morality and human nature are required to set it whirling in a person’s brain. There is undoubtedly much to be said against the spurious linkage between faith and morality, but the following three points should suffice.

If a book like the bible were the only reliable blueprint for human decency that we have, it would be impossible (both practically and logically) to criticize it in moral terms. But it is extraordinarily easy to criticize the morality one finds in bible, as most of it is simply odious and incompatible with a civil society.

The notion that the bible is a perfect guide to morality is really quite amazing, given the contents of the book. Human sacrifice, genocide, slaveholding, and misogyny are consistently celebrated.  Of course, God’s counsel to parents is refreshingly straightforward: whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod (Proverbs 13: 24, 20:30, and 23:13-14). If they are shameless enough to talk back to us, we should kill them (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark.7:9-13 and Matthew 15:4-7).  We must also stone people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, worshipping graven images, practicing sorcery, and for a wide variety of other imaginary crimes.  Most Christians imagine that Jesus did away with all this barbarism and delivered a doctrine of pure love and toleration.  He didn’t (Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 20-21, John 7:19). Anyone who believes that Jesus only taught the Golden Rule and love of one’s neighbor should go back and read the New Testament. And pay particular attention to the morality that will be on display if he ever returns to Earth trailing clouds of glory (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2:8; Hebrews 10:28-29; 2 Peter 3:7; and all of Revelation). It is not an accident that St. Thomas Aquinas thought heretics should be killed and that St. Augustine thought they should be tortured.  (Ask yourself, what are the chances that these good doctors of the Church hadn’t read the New Testament closely enough to discover the error of their ways?) As a source of objective morality, the bible is one of the worst books we have. It might have been the very worst, in fact, if we didn’t also happen to have the Koran.

It is important to point out that we decide what is good in the Good Book. We read the Golden and Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses; we read that a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death, and we (if we are civilized) decide that this is the most vile lunacy imaginable. Our own ethical intuitions are, therefore, primary.  So the choice before us is simple: we can either have a 21st century conversation about ethics—availing ourselves of all the arguments and scientific insights that have accumulated in the last 2,000 years of human discourse—or we can confine ourselves to a first century conversation as it is preserved in the bible.

If religion were necessary for morality, there should some evidence that atheists are less moral than believers. But evidence for this is in short supply, and there is much evidence to the contrary.

People of faith regularly allege that atheism is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes of the 20th century. Are atheists really less moral than believers? While it is true that the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were irreligious to varying degrees, they were not especially rational. In fact, their public pronouncements were little more than litanies of delusion--delusions about race, economics, national identity, the march of history or the moral dangers of intellectualism. In many respects, religion was directly culpable even here. Consider the Holocaust: the anti-Semitism that built the Nazi crematoria brick by brick was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity. For centuries, Christian Europeans had viewed the Jews as the worst species of heretics and attributed every societal ill to their continued presence among the faithful. While the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominately secular way, its roots were undoubtedly religious—and the explicitly religious demonization of the Jews of Europe continued throughout the period. (The Vatican itself perpetuated the blood libel in its newspapers as late as 1914.) Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields are not examples of what happens when people become too critical of unjustified beliefs; to the contrary, these horrors testify to the dangers of not thinking critically enough about specific secular ideologies. Needless to say, a rational argument against religious faith is not an argument for the blind embrace of atheism as a dogma. The problem that the atheist exposes is none other than the problem of dogma itself--of which every religion has more than its fair share. I know of no society in recorded history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

According the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies--countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom—are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest by the U.N. in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality—belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction; societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God; each factor may enable the other; or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief.  Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health.

If religion really provided the only conceivable, objective basis for morality, it should be impossible to posit a non-theistic, objective basis for morality.  But it is not impossible; it is rather easy.

Clearly, we can think of objective sources of moral order that do not require the existence of a law-giving God.  In “The End of Faith,” I argued that questions of morality are really questions about happiness and suffering.  If there are objectively better and worse ways to live so as to maximize happiness in this world, these would be objective moral truths worth knowing.  Whether we will ever be in a position to discover these truths and agree about them cannot be known in advance (and this is the case for all questions of scientific fact). But if there are psychophysical laws that underwrite human well-being—and why wouldn’t there be?—then these laws are potentially discoverable.  Knowledge of these laws would provide an enduring basis for an objective morality. In the meantime, everything about human experience suggests that love is better than hate for the purposes of living happily in this world.  This is an objective claim about the human mind, the dynamics of social relations, and the moral order of our world. While we do not have anything like a final, scientific approach to maximizing human happiness, it seems safe to say that raping and killing children will not be one of its primary constituents.

One of the greatest challenges facing civilization in the 21st century is for human beings to learn to speak about their deepest personal concerns--about ethics, spiritual experience and the inevitability of human suffering--in ways that are not flagrantly irrational. Nothing stands in the way of this project more than the respect we accord religious faith. Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities, and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict.  The idea that there is a necessary link between religious faith and morality is one of the principal myths keeping religion in good standing among otherwise reasonable men and women.  And yet, it is a myth that is easily dispelled.

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  • #156670 by SHOWU on 5/15 at 1:57 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Thank you for the excellent article.
    http://www.internationalremovals-ltd.com/en/logistics- company.html

    Report this comment

  • #127556 by Sandy Taylor on 1/19 at 2:54 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    trying to reach Jenny Zock Babines.  Have lost touch.  My email address is sstaylor1 at cox dot net, please email me.  Love, Sandy

    Report this comment

  • #121131 by Rmelcher on 12/18 at 7:07 pm
    (1 comments total)

    Although I do not believe in a particular God or gods as existing in some external or ruling dimension, I’m still not personally comfortable applying the term atheism to myself.

    It’s rather easy to see the evil effects of religion. History, like the newspapers, tends to record mostly the disruptions of human life. The terrible effects of belief systems in the modern world are also easy to see.

    My question to the atheist is whether one can consider the development of human society, human knowledge and human personality without considering the ongoing dialogue human’s have been having with aspects of reality that are greater than the ‘self.’ One can call these ‘God’ or ‘gods’ or ‘angels’ or ‘archetypes,’ or ‘spirits,’ and one would be talking about similar things.

    Perhaps we are in a time when humanity is ready to abandon its dialogue with these inner or outer projections and to embrace a reality totally based on reason. Harris and others contend that if we do not we are threatened with either extinction or a wholesale return to the dark ages. I can see that this is a rational deduction given present data. It may be the only deduction possible when one has no belief in anything outside of reason. The very data quoted by Harris to indicate our dire straights leads only to one rational conclusion - civilization is screwed. Otherwise one would have to believe that somehow the majority of humanity, which until this moment has depended on religion as one of the primary organizing principles of society will suddenly throw all of that off and embrace wholesale the spirit of pure rationality. This requires a leap of ‘faith’ that is, in my opinion, as irrational as the belief that all things come from nothing - that is, it is a faith based on very little evidence.

    As much as religion is the engine behind some of the most destructive forces in the world, I believe it’s also the one of the forces standing between ourselves, including the rationalists among us, and total mayhem. As much evidence as there is of the destructive effects of religion there is also evidence that religion has played a part in preserving a more or less balanced relationship between the pursuit of reason and the tides of collective hysteria. I believe that, if it weren’t for the so-called ‘religious moderates’ for whom Harris has such contempt, most of the scientists of the world would probably long ago have been hung on meat hooks. To use a religious metaphor, you don’t defeat the devil by meeting him face to face. His forces are too powerful and subtle and have too many convinced that he’s on their side. Likewise, you don’t disarm a dangerous psychopath by asking him for his weapon. Instead you must be patient and subtle, even able to enter his reality, while you gradually talk him down.

    Of course the task of remaining patient in the face of all of the dire complexity facing our world is almost impossible for a person without some sort of faith. As Harris himself puts it in his book, “Faith enables many of us to endure life’s difficulties with an equanimity that would be scarcely conceivable in a world lit only by reason.” If, however, you can manage the task, more power to ya’.

    For me the best counsel is in the words of another atheist, Richard Adams, in his “Hitchiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”.  “Don’t Panic.”

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  • #119956 by CoForSeparationOfBoardAndBedroom on 12/13 at 7:40 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I share the belief of the agnostic poster that we do not know one way or the other. I disagree with the article’s suggestion that poverty and injustice are not the root of human suffering and that simple removal of faith in deity will solve humanity’s woes. Wish it were that simple. I’d be among the first to celebrate if that were the case but it isn’t. While I concur with the writer’s areligious view overall I respectfully submit that refusal to address humanity’s material woes is part of the problem rather than the solution. Targeting religion alone is definitely not going to solve it. Tyrants have been both non-religious and religious while saintly players on the political stage have been on both sides of the spectrum as well. It is time to get to the roots of the problem. I suggest that calling for immediate switch to atheism and pointing out religion as the bogeyman of an unhumane world is putting the cart before the horse. Solve the underlying problems that lead to suffering first, then await a more realistic and gradual change to rational worldview among human beings.

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  • #107114 by kaka on 10/14 at 9:27 pm
    (1 comments total)

    Buy viagra

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  • #106993 by Ralph Clark on 10/14 at 8:33 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    To: Comment #3267 by Jenny Zock Babines on 2/08 at 9:21 am

    > I would like to see a Unified Theory of Spirituality
    > that uses the rigors of Science as a litmus test for
    > divine consicousness.

    Science still cannot deal with consciousness, not on your terms. Consciousness as an experiential phenomenon is still a complete mystery to science. i.e. “how do you get from spatiotemporal synapse firing patterns, to the experience of the blueness of the colour blue”? Of course much work has been done to explain human behaviour in terms of neurological structure and this has been outstandingly successful, but no Scientist can yet explain why we really feel things instead of just acting as if we do.

    This is not a shortcoming of Science by the way, it’s a shortcoming of the question - not all questions make sense, and questions that don’t make sense cannot be answered by Science.

    Anyway if Science cannot explain even human consciousness then it can hardly explain a divine one.

    > I am currently writing a book called THE QUANTUM PRESENCE
    > that uses the recent theories of quantum mechanics to point
    > the way to a universal consciousness we can consider divine
    > if we wish to.

    This has been done to death already, in print and on the net. Have you never encountered Jack Sarfatti? I understand what you are reaching for here, Jenny. But in the end any attempt to label immaterial aspects of the universe - however teleological some theories of spacetime may seem - is nothing more than undiluted anthropomorphism, and in that respect you are no different than your remotest gourd-waving, tattooed and bone-decorated cave-dwelling ancestors who invented gods to personify the land and the sky. It can only *seem* to make sense at all (if you squint really hard) because consciousness, in the sense you mean it, is such an ill-defined concept that you can get away with attributing it to anything. After all if I tell you that stone over there is conscious, how are you going to disprove it? And if you are attributing consciousness to something that cannot even be pointed to, then so much the better.

    I will admit that I have suspicions that the universe is evolving in a teleological way (this is almost entirely Frank Tipler’s fault). But even if the universe were reaching toward some sort of purpose - if the driver of history were “final cause” rather than “efficient cause” - there is no good reason to attribute consciousness to it. Ball rolls downhill, flatworms find food and the world turns, all without any need for the explanatory power of conscious intent.

    > Except for minor aberrations mankind is basicly good
    > without the dogma of organized man-made religions.

    Sort of. Good and Evil are only human concepts. In a universe that contained no intelligent species, neither would have any meaning. Mankind is “basically good” because the default behavioural mode of human society is how we *define* good in the first place. If our species had to eat babies forever in order to survive, once we had become used to it as a society we would still say mankind was “basically good”. Because our yardstick for “good” would be in a different place from where it is here and now. Moral “Good” is what is best for the majority in the long term. I advise you to read Steven Pinker, then you will know something about human nature at least.

    > Reading and studying the sciences can hasten our own
    > spiritual evolution and understanding of what we are

    I will certainly agree with you on that.

    > and how we are all connected to the Universal Consciousness
    > I call THE QUANTUM PRESENCE.

    Oh not not another mad preacher.

    > P.S. I’m looking for a publisher!

    The market for such books yet exists, but as people hasten their evolution and understanding through science, fortunately it grows less.

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  • #104243 by Panic on 10/02 at 9:38 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Jackie,

    Atheism represents an active disbelief in any form of deity or god. Agnosticism, in distinction, holds that it is not possible to know one way or the other.

    /Panic

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  • #93631 by Vazool on 8/10 at 1:35 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Jackie, your definition of atheist is not right.  I am an atheist, but I don’t believe in any higher power whatsoever.  I’m not sure whether belief in some form of higher power is actually excluded by the definition of atheism, but it is certainly NOT required by it.  Lexicologically speaking, all that is clear is that the belief that the higher power is a god is prohibited.

    Any support for the attempt to build a belief system around the personification or magicalisation of natural processes, however mysterious, should fall outside of the definition of atheism.

    As regards the idea of mysteriousl forces as an alternative to a god, well that depends on whether or not the ‘believer’ concedes that these mysterious forces are just currently inexplicable and are at least potentially open to scientific enquiry.  If so, I suppose they would be a rationalist AND an atheist; if not (i.e. the believer regards these forces as truly magical and forever beyond the wit of mortal man), then he/she is just plain superstitious.

    As far as my own personal definition of atheism goes, an atheist doesn’t need to believe that someone (or something...) is pulling the strings just to make sense of things.  To take a poker analogy, an atheist plays the hand and does not deify the dealer; nor does THIS rational atheist (i.e. me) confuse the rules of the game, however complex and beyond my understanding, with magical energy or a mystical lifeforce.

    Although that might explain my bad luck.

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  • #93548 by archeon of thrace on 8/09 at 4:36 pm
    (563 comments total)

    Dan, I have had to rely on nothing more than my personal convictions and ethno-moral value system to sustain my through great life tests.

    Examples:

    I have faced death.
    I have had to face others who would do me harm with a gun.
    I have lost loved ones to violenc and to disease.
    I have worke hard all my life at physical labour.

    Through all these I have never turned to god, or hoped that some supernatural magical beign would alleviate my suffering.

    In short I have been tested by life, and still god seemed like a petulant asshole, and his book seemed like nothing more than trivial garbage.

    Report this comment

  • #93427 by Jackie on 8/09 at 8:25 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    The atheist doesn’t believe in a religion, but he believes that there’s a greater “force” or something above us that rules the universe. What you’re referring to is an agnostic person, who believes there’s nothing above us, nothing rules the universe, there’s no fate or destiny or anything written. Although, there’s the other definition that says that agnostics have no knowledge about religion and greater forces. Do you have more details on this subject? If this is incorrect, then how is a person who doesn’t believe in anything defined?

    Report this comment

  • #74434 by archeon of thrace on 5/31 at 8:38 pm
    (563 comments total)

    It is 72 PERPETUAL virgins.

    The implications are quite interesting:

    1- they never have sex with you - then what is the point of them being virgins, or women even?

    2- you get fuck them, and miraculously they are transformed into virgins by morning - this begs the question of what a virgin is.  It is clear however that logically; once fucked a woman can never be a “real” virgin again.

    So it is clear that this is a paradise designed for simpltons, morons, and the ignorant.

    My favorite part is the one about sitting on brocade cushions eating pomegranites.  It is so clear that the koran is rooted in arabic culture of the 4th century.  Just like it is clear that judaism is rooted in the 50th century BC, and christianity is rooted in the first century.

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  • #72609 by mike 18 on 5/25 at 2:57 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    If religion were necessary for morality, there should some evidence that atheists are less moral than believers. But evidence for this is in short supply, and there is much evidence to the contrary.

    Report this comment

  • #70654 by Arch Leer on 5/17 at 3:15 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Dan,

    If you’ll forgive me for saying so, that doesn’t make any sense.

    My own will and moral principles may or may not be sufficient for whatever tests I might face but of one thing I can be sure: I will do the best I can and I will strive to be true to myself and my principles - and yet not, I hope, so far that I become blind to everything else.

    But whether this will be enough or not, I don’t see anything in the Bible (and yes I have read most of it, several times in fact) that would lighten my load.

    The antics of the ancient Hebrew warmongers, pedophiles, rapists and infanticides that populate the books of the Old Testament have no useful lesson for me except to remind me that some of the worst crimes in history have been promoted and lauded by that very Holy book.

    As for the New Testament, the philosophy preached in the Gospels does contain positive humanist aspects that have been adopted by our modern culture and are today practiced by good Christians and atheists alike - being kind and considerate to one’s fellow man etc.

    As for faith itself, which you decry the lack of, there are two aspects to this.

    On the one hand there is “believing in something” which you seem to find indispensable, presumably for spiritual fulfillment. Well with regard to that, please try to understand this: I can still believe in a philosophy, and I can still HOPE for plenty of things that *may* be without deluding myself about what *is*. Faith is merely a deliberate act of self-delusion usually prompted by fear of the more realistic alternative. Hope is actually harder than faith because it demands that you be honest with yourself that there are no guarantees of any kind about the future (and especially no ridiculous cartoon afterlife as envisioned by bronze-age camel herders). But in HOPE you can still find some satisfaction, if you hope for the right things and if you have the strength of spirit to let that hope guide your actions.

    As for the other aspect of faith - belief in the veracity of some unsupported statement of fact, such as the aforesaid cartoon afterlife - I hardly need to apologize for not being a credulous fool.

    Moreover I don’t need to apologize for continuing to lead a morally correct life despite my lack of belief in an eternal system of punishment or reward. The fact that many religious conservatives seem to believe man would behave like an animal without this heavenly incentive (when evidence to the contrary is all around them in the form of atheists behaving in a civilized and often charitable way), this surely tells us a great deal about the type of men these religious conservatives are. I certainly wouldn’t want to be left alone with one of them while they thought God was looking the other way.

    So, Dan, we atheists and agnostics are not bad people. We can show you hope and charity in abundance. We think faith is just foolishness though. We admit it can seem harder to live without it; it’s a bit like leaving the parental home for the first time and standing on your own two feet. Without the moral crutch of the Bible and excuses such as “I am as God made me” or “Satan led me astray”, we are forced to bear full responsibility for our own moral choices. We don’t judge people by their allegiance to an ancient Middle Eastern cult, we judge people according to how they behave and how they treat others.

    We don’t live as the abject subjects of a tyrant Old Testament god nor as the half-hearted, self-hating acolytes of a tortured New Testament god whose requirements were so strict that almost *none* of his followers are any better at following them than anybody else (choosing to go to a special club every weekend and sing songs about it instead).

    Instead we live as free men.

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  • #70620 by Dan on 5/17 at 12:31 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I would really like to see one of the ones that believe the Holy Bible is a book of misguidance and deceit for the eyes of men, I’d like to see them confronting a situation where a little bit more than some own moral principles and a strong will are necessary. You people wouldn’t even try to believe in something even if someone had a gun pointed at your head. I mean, you’re the losers here..

    Report this comment

  • #70285 by mike18 on 5/16 at 6:35 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    super site! other here

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  • #59316 by Gamble Online on 3/19 at 3:28 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Gamble Online

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  • #57872 by Ralph Clark on 3/10 at 6:54 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    To: Comment #17166 by Bennett S. Bartlett

    You asked:

    “What is it the makes people need to invent an entire story of what happens after death in their religion, and why does anyone subscribe to such obvious clap trap?”

    The religious complexities you referred to are usually described as “mysticism”. All *organized* religions include astounding quantities of mystic mumbo jumbo, and in that statement lies the clue to the answer, which is simple and well understood by sociologists.

    Mystic complexity will always appear in a religious belief system with some rapidity immediately after the appearance of a priesthood elite. In that respect priests are no different than any other professional class: they are only acquiring a jargon.

    In the case of physicians, engineers and scientits there is a least some demonstrable point to the jargon in that it is needed to describe concrete things and necessary ideas, whereas in the case of priests (and some would argue, lawyers) there is no real need for it but they invent a jargon anyway as a means of obfuscating what they are talking about and making it seem more complex and impenetrable than it really is.

    You must realize that the mystical stuff about the afterlife and even the trinary nature of God wasn’t clear in early Christian writings, if it was even mentioned at all. It didn’t appear until the first council of Nicea in 325, when the various local Christian organizations assembled themselves into the Holy Church.

    For the Christian priesthood of the dark and middle ages this was absolutely vital in order for them to interpose themselves between man and God and make themselves absolutely indispensable with regard to any commerce between the two, so that they could gain power and control. By making Christianity hard for the common man to understand, not only did it become impossible for the common man to approach God without the help of a priest, it even became impossible to avoid heresy. i.e. if you didn’t have a degree-level understanding of the current mumbo jumbo taught by the Church then any hostile questioning would quickly reveal you to be a heretic. And we all know what would have happened next.

    This monopoly on salvation was the source of their massive wealth and political power so you can see why they would struggle to protect it.

    The same desire to protect their “trade secrets” and hence their power in society was also what motivated the Church for over a thousand years the to avoid allowing the Bible and the Mass to be translated from Latin into English etc. This didn’t change until Martin Luther & the reformation which engendered the Protestant Church, however the Roman church continued with everything in Latin.

    Of course I am making some dramatic oversimplifications here but I am sure you get the point.

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  • #45895 by Goldy on 1/06 at 1:29 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Why 72 virgins?  Wouldn’t you want at least one of them to be able to give good ...?

    Report this comment

  • #43771 by remarklj@earthlink.net on 12/26 at 9:59 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I think your defense of secular morality misses the point that you have to till the garden you have. That cacti can survive in the desert “proves” that shade and frequent rainfall are not essential to plant life, but it does not prove that you can create a place worth living in without them. 

    Some atheists are moral; indeed, I would argue that most atheists - i.e., people who have thought about the problem and concluded that there is no god - can be moral and are moral.  But the view that a world of atheists would be a better place than a world of deists is actually an elitist, politically correct bit of wishful thinking.  Not enough people can dope out the morality that atheism demands.

    If religious terrorism teaches us anything, it is how few bad actors it takes to disrupt a society.  The prerequisite for social equilibrium - respect for each others life and property - comes not from there being a few people who can behave well but from their being a very small number who do not behave well.  The social utility of deism in general and organized religion specifically must be tested not against the ability of a college-educated man with an IQ of 120 to worry out the categorical imperative; it depends on the ability of the working stiff with the IQ of 95 to find a basis for doing the right thing. 

    Just as we have evolved opposable thumbs, we have evolved the ability to believe in a deity.  We have evolved that ability because, without it, we perish, not because it is impossible for atheists to behave morally, but because, absent a divine law-giver, too many of us behave badly.  In the end, the problem is thus not a philosophical one or even a theological one.  It is a practical one.  However much damage religion has done, it is to morality what democracy is to government - the worst one possible, except for all the others.

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  • #42244 by George on 12/14 at 5:46 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Which is more irrational; that the universe began with the big bang or it has always existed?  If it began with the Big Bang what caused the Big Bang?  If it has always existed, does this not beg for proof that cannot be provided?  The reality is that no one knows for sure. No math formula can prove an eternal existance of the universe without using imaginary numbers, neither can science. In fact, based on what we know of the universe it is at the very least aguable that the Big Bang happened. What must of caused this? Nothing? So all of us humans are bound to a faith be it religious or atheistic. Truth will only be revealed upon our death.

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  • #41318 by John Crook on 12/08 at 2:10 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It is quite possible to argue against Bertrand Russell’s teapot analogy.  However, rather than argue against it directly, I will give a counter analogy:

    Who would use French grammar as a means for calculating the orbit of Saturn (or a teapot)?

    In other words religious belief is necessarily beyond the scope of rational debate.  It is impossible to disprove a person’s BELIEF in the extra-terrestrial teapot.  If you think that is missing the point, take some time to reconsider.  It’s worth it, I promise.

    As for Mr Russell, himself… Consider the following extract from one of his works:

    In extreme cases there can be little doubt of the superiority of one race to another.... It seems on the whole fair to regard negroes as on the average inferior to white men, although for work in the tropics they are indispensable, so that their extermination (apart from questions of humanity) would be highly undesirable.

    —Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals (1929)

    Or to paraphrase: there can be little doubt of the existence of the orbiting teapot… It seems on the whole fair to posit the existence of an extra-terrestial teapot, despite one or two niggling concerns relating to the ability of porcelain to withstand the extreme temperature differential, so that denial of its presence (apart from questions of expediency) would be highly undesirable.

    OK - its a dodgey paraphrase, but talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

    I also happen to believe that any Philosophy undergraduate could pen a retort to Bertrand Russell’s teapot analogy.  Unless, of course she had better things to do.

    A fellow atheist.

    As for Mr Russell, himself… Consider the following extract from one of his works:

    In extreme cases there can be little doubt of the superiority of one race to another.... It seems on the whole fair to regard negroes as on the average inferior to white men, although for work in the tropics they are indispensable, so that their extermination (apart from questions of humanity) would be highly undesirable.

    —Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals (1929)

    Or to paraphrase: there can be little doubt of the existence of the orbiting teapot… It seems on the whole fair to posit the existence of an extra-terrestial teapot, despite one or two niggling concerns relating to the ability of porcelain to withstand the extreme temperature differetial, so that denail of its

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  • #23198 by Bruce LeFebvre on 9/13 at 2:19 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Whoever is helping Sam with his blog needs to remove the spam--it’s cluttering us up and cooling off new bloggers.  Is it possible to remove the SPAM so that we can get back to the subject?
    Thanks
    WBL

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  • #18305 by Stephen Lord on 8/15 at 2:34 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    God works in mysterious ways? No...........

    Well put:D however the lack of rationality has never stopped any dogmatist from beleiving what they wasnt to beleive. 
    As per the original manifesto, those who survive usually end up beleiving this was due to god’s mercy.

    I recently saw a post on a health site I use about how a guy delivering a repaired defibulator was miraculously saved by the same machine. 

    One has to only ask what about the guy who died when it broke?  How about those who died while it was being repaired?  but before you can do this you must first dismiss the reason.

    The holy teapot is out there somewhere? 
    Of course people are indoctrinated while the idea of a interspatial teapot is no less ridiculous than santa or easter bunnies. 

    This is the fundamental of the virus propogation, invade the host while the host is at its most vulnerable and the defenses are low. 

    Flying people:  Is it not obvious why they want to believe this.  Is it any less ridiculous than a virgin birth or scientology? 

    Once the defense system is weakened by indoctrination in believing without reason it is easily compromised by further viral ideas. 

    An atheist isn’t going to beleive because the atheist has already asserted reason but a dogmatist has already suspended reason.  All that needs to be overcome is a more attractive empty offer. Wanna see more suicide bombers, just offer more virgins.  Find purgatory a bit harsh, well just invent a new concept of directly ascending to hell.  The bible is so full of contradictions that almost any theory can be supported somewhere so long as it requires no proof. 

    Nowhere can this be seen better in contempory works than the Da Vinci code where one set of belief without questioning is merely replaced to another. I must admit when reading the quote from the vatican about the dangers of peope believing the book at face value the Da Vinci code wasn’t the book that came to MY mind.

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  • #17199 by Bennett on 8/07 at 12:24 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Bruce:

    Religion has certainly provided more than its share of connon fodder throughout histroy, I hardily agree.  But I see something more insidious in the fact that religions seem to encourage believers to believe a set story, evidence be damned.

    I read an intersting post (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/)
    in which the blogger worries that journalism is suffering, not from censorship, but from too much undifferentiated information.  Governments no longer need to censor information, he argues, because they can put the truth out there along side all the lies, distortions (e.g. reports by astroturf organizations, or this: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2273111&page=1),
    and relentless attacks on media bias, and the truth is ignored or overlooked, especially, it seems to me, by people accustomed to believeing in stories they want to believe in that have no basis in evidence.

    Once a person believes that heaven has seven levels as a “fact,” and that other religious explanations are silly, it is a small step to believe that Iraq had active WMD stock piles (a la Rick Santorum), and all other news reports are silly.

    Scarry stuff to me.

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  • #17172 by Bruce LeFebvre on 8/07 at 8:23 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Bennett:
    I guess I can understand the desire to make an afterlife some sort of magical ‘perfect’ existence and it’s because of the fact that life, itself, is quite imperfect.  None of us, rich, poor, beautiful or ugly, makes it through life unscathed by the reality of existence.  For the believer, since they’re indulging in a bit of fantasy anyway, can choreograph an afterlife however he or she wants it to be.

    It has to be admitted, religion is the cleverest and most successful industry ever invented:  It doesn’t have to produce a product and it doesn’t have to pay taxes!  And for governments it relieves the anxiety of dying, so it provides lots of cannon fodder whenever it seems convenient to have a little war or two.

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  • #17166 by Bennett S. Bartlett on 8/07 at 7:32 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    TO: Comment #16341 by Bruce LeFebvre,

    Bruce: 

    I went back and finished reading the treatise (14881) that I had recommended to you.  The first time through I didn’t get very much past the “God is consciousness” argument, which I found interesting enough to ignore the claim that the universe works flawlessly.  I can only assume that the writer was defining “flaw” in the narrowest of terms.  An earthquake devastating a city would not be a flaw, because it would be the universe operating within some sort of consistent framwork, where as if you woke up one day and say, Colorado had just blinked out of existence--out of consciousness I suppose I should say--then there is a flaw in the counsciousness field (hell, let’s just call it “the force” shall we?).

    Anyway, now that I finished the article, it has the feel of a PR piece for Maharishi University of Management, which used to be called Maharishi International University, or MIU we used to call it (I attended a small Iowa college only 30 miles or so from MIU).  Those MIU folks claimed that they could levitate back then, too (although I never understood the theory until I re-read that post, which I take to say: “when we reach the state of transcendence, the force is with us.").

    After college, I rented an apartment in town and there was a MIU graduate living in the apartment above me.  On night a fellow MIU grad came to visit my upstairs neighbor for dinner.  After dinner sometime I heard this banging sound above, it made my ceiling shake.  It went on for some time, but I’m an easy going fellow, so I ignored it.

    The next morning, she came to apologize for the noise.  I asked, in a facetious tone, “were you trying to fly,” intending to jokingly suggest that if they were, they did not do a very good job of staying air borne.  She looked at me astounded and in all seriousness, said, “Yes, how did you know.”

    So, this is a long winded way to bring this back to chosing the myth you like (sort of).  They idea that I am simply consciousness within the greater field of consciousness, and that once I master some technique of finding my place in the field I can fly around like Nemo in the Matrix is a nice myth.  And MIU (or whatever it is called now) does have these two big domes you see as you drive by.  I once saw a “secret” film of what goes on in the domes. 

    These people sit with their legs pretzel style on a mattress covered floor, and after meditating for a while manage to flex their leg muscles in a way that makes them spring into the air an inch or two.  Then they bounce around on the mattress for a while, and call it flying.  And they really think they are flying. 

    I’m sorry that I have not made a coherent point here.  MIU people are not, I assume, indoctinated in childhood, but they sure seem to grab hold of the myths once they enroll in the school.  What makes them love their myth over others, I can’t say.

    But, I want to add something that I find curious.  The author of 14881 described seven states of consciousness--and the last four seem made up out of whole cloth.  Mormons (I dated one once) describe seven levels of after life--again, just made up stuff.  Only in the last year did Catholicism dump the concept of purgatory (or was it limbo, I get confused), another completely made up explanation for what happens after death that no one could know to be true.  No different, it seems, than Mount Olympus, Valhalla, 72 virgins, etc.

    So I end on this note:  What is it the makes people need to invent an entire story of what happens after death in their religion, and why does anyone subscribe to such obvious clap trap?

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  • #16341 by Bruce LeFebvre on 8/02 at 4:57 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I guess I’m turning into a “Bloggie” with this discussion but I hope everyone else is having as much of a ball as I am.

    Beatrice & Bennett:  Thanks for being there and your bright light of intellectuality.  Bennett I did read the 14881 treatise.  It sounds a bit like a religious adherent trying to tie the so-called “creative intelligence” to the current physics rage of “String Theory” or the “The Theory of Everything”.

    Interesting, if not justifiable, and more proof of your theory of ‘indoctrinology’.

    Where does the idea of ‘perfection’ enter the picture?  Surely he isn’t implying the Universe has some destination in mind!  And, I hope he is aware of how many times this one little planet has essentially started the whole process of life all over again.  One would think that a unified ‘consciousness’ would do a little advance planning.

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  • #16328 by Beatrice Cader on 8/02 at 3:56 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I have a question for the pious… Do we value human life anymore???

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  • #16277 by Beck Out West on 8/02 at 11:17 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Mr Harris,

    Your arguments constitute a strong assault against religion. I would only add the idea of memes to your arsenal. Memetics uses viral behavior as a model to illustrate how information patterns and notions enter and spread throughout society. Many religions exhibit viral behavior, infecting their hosts and immediately seeking replication. Some religions have even developed defense mechanisms that punish those who attempt a cure. Muslims, for example, call for the death of apostates. Looking at religions as biological entities with highly evolved survival strategies is an enlightening exercise. Regarding religious people as having a contagious infection is just good mental hygiene.

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  • #15031 by Beatrice Cader on 7/24 at 9:14 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Good question and well said Bruce!

    As a peace loving person, I really appreciate your comment!

    Thank you!

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  • #15022 by Bennett S. Bartlett on 7/24 at 7:19 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Bruce:

    Seeing that no one has taken you up on your offer, I thought I’d return the favor (you commented on my earlier post).

    I do not believe in omniscience so perhaps I’m not the right person to comment.

    (Although for a really . . . lets say, unique view of omniscience, check out this post by someone claiming that God is consciousness:

    http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_man ifesto/#14881).

    Anyway, as a starting point, it seems to me (based only on observation) that indoctrination is a powerful force.  People who are steeped in a religious tradition rarely seem to reject it later, however illogical it may later turn out to be. 

    So one reason to accept one set of myths over another is indoctrination.  But assuming that can be overcome, as some people seem to do, the next factor must have something to do with the need for personal affirmation.  That is a need that seems to be intrinsic to humans, although were it comes from I don’t know.

    I’m just flying by the seat of my pants here, but bear with me.  Greek/Roman gods were like humans.  Their human-like characterists were probably attractive because Greeks and Romans could identify with the human foibles in those they worshiped.  But I do not get the impression that Greeks and Romans had the sort of personal, internal dialoge that people seem to have with Jesus. 

    It is nice to see your frailties reflected in the gods, but much nicer to have a perfect, forgiving being in your head--constantly telling you that its OK that you screw up because I, the embodiment of perfection--not to mention your father-figure--love you despite your screw ups, and furthermore, all you have to do is follow my simply formula and I’ll forgive you for your screw ups.

    In other words, “hey, you’re OK,” trumps the less personal, “hey, people are OK.”

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  • #14954 by Brent Kearney on 7/23 at 11:19 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I think that part of the problem of religion is that most people just don’t have the capacity for logic.  I know that sounds pretentious, but consider it, and you’ll find that it explains a lot. 

    Those who live in the intellectual bubble of academia lose touch with the common man on the street and in the fields.  They don’t comprehend modus ponens, or even grasp the notion of “follows from”.  Many people go through life as simple partisans: they’re Republican or Democrat, Catholic or Protestant, and you are with them or against them.  The idea that reasons could stand on their own is foreign and incomprehensible.  An argument for the common person is always an argument from a particular person’s lips, and never something that could stand on its own as an object of deliberation. 

    I am not claiming that these people are stupid.  Rather, I believe that the capacity for critical thought must be learned and developed, and most people are just never exposed to the basics, let alone the honing of these skills that comes from the study of secular philosophy.

    If my assessment is at all accurate, the project of intellectual enlightenment is still in its early infancy.

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  • #14819 by Bruce LeFebvre on 7/22 at 11:48 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    If anyone (especially those who still cling to their belief in some sort of omniscience) would like to respond, I’d like to ask why one would believe in any one myth rather than another.  For instance, why wouldn’t you believe in the Greek pantheon or the Roman one or the Hindu one or the Egyptian one?  What is so convincing or attractive to believe the stories in the Koran, Bible or Torah as opposed to the others?
    Bruce LeFebvre

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  • #14760 by Christensen in Kansas City on 7/21 at 8:18 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Fundamentalist atheists are as spooky as fundamentalists anything else.

    The are, in their own way fanatics.

    I don’t want them in control any more than I do the fundies.

    Sure, Falwell, Robertson and Dobson have their own issues...many of which go beyond Christianity, per se; but so did Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.

    Who needs it.

    Thank GOD for a secular (note, not atheist, secular) state.

    Its a very New Testament idea..."Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s”.

    So, you’ll pardon me if I resist your efforts.

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  • #14715 by Bruce LeFebvre on 7/21 at 3:34 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Bennett:
    Interesting comment on the somewhat spontaneity of morality and compassion.  But morality probably stems from a social/civilized realization that if we are not kind to one another we can probably expect unkindness in one form or another ourselves.  From that point of view it’s simple but also complex because it becomes a factor for survival and altruistic as it seems has self-involved aspects.

    Probably the clue to civilization in general is that we are, by nature, a social animal and have to work out methods that will work for living in close proximity to one another.

    Morality then becomes a survival technique.  If the Meercats on the African veldt can work out social interaction without resorting to violence, you would think that homosapiens with their larger brains could do so.  As it works out, there must have been some quality that didn’t make it to the 21st century in the human brain.
    Bruce

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  • #14690 by Indigobusiness on 7/21 at 11:38 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Religion as a tool is one thing...Religion as a weapon is another.

    http://godisnotanasshole.blogspot.com/

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  • #14674 by Bennett S. Bartlett on 7/21 at 9:44 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Sam:

    I want your insight on this “problem,” for lack of a better word.

    Years ago, while trying to address a friend’s argument that morality is dependent upon religion (before I read your commendable book), the following analogy occurred to me:

    If I pick up a baby--any race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, it does not matter--and cuddle the baby warmly, I’ll get one response.  If I poke the baby with a pin, I’ll get another response. 

    I (as Everyman) can give pleasure or inflict pain--here the pain is physical, but emotional paid counts as well.  That seems to me to be the two basic ingredients of morality--no religion needed. 

    But what is also needed is compassion, or perhaps I mean empathy: the cognitive ability to equate the baby’s pleasure/pain with my own.  And that ability, given that it seems to be shared by many mammals, would seem to have an anthropological explanation rather than a religious one. So again, these three ingredients--pain, pleasure, empathy--form the bases of a perfectly acceptable, workable morality, no religion needed.

    So, am I missing something?  Or am I, perhaps, only describing a physio/psychological (a term I may have just coined) bases for the golden rule?

    Hope this does not seem to elementary, but before I present this argument to others I’d like to see how it holds up.

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  • #13499 by Beatrice Cader on 7/11 at 2:20 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Hello Sam!

    Are we reading too much into so called spiritualism?

    May be a good idea to learn the basics of happy, spiritual living from our animal friends.  They do not kill for faith based reasons or waste any time arguing about faith… They only fulfill their survival needs and enjoy the moments they have on this planet earth while sharing and living harmoniously among each other (just watch your steps when they are hungry).

    Why spend so much energy and time arguing on concepts?  Instead, please serve mankind with love and kindness…

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  • #13365 by Kande Trefil on 7/10 at 6:13 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    “Believers go on believing forever without any confirmation because it gives them a feeling of security and also to keep antisocial impulses at bay...”

    I appreciate what you wrote, John; my only disagreement lies in the above.  In my experience, monotheistic believers use religion in an antisocial way, their basic message being “As a believer, I am better and more privileged than others, and included in that privilege is the right to violence towards those who disagree with me.”

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  • #13334 by Indigobusiness on 7/09 at 1:26 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Mike #2 said:

    Hmmm… You speak with an assumed authority and CERTAINTY regarding an athesists take on religion, yet tell us that deeper truth lies in paradox and UNCERTAINTY.
    Your analogy about religious truth being like quantum mechanics is similar gibberish.  How do you “know” this to be true?  Just because?  That doesn’t cut it.  I do not assume that anyone who claims to have first-hand “knowledge” of God is crazy or dishonest.  But I don’t accept as an objective fact, either.  If that person could provide sufficient evidence, I would change my opinion.  So far, no one has provided me with such evidence.  I agree that there may be phenomena beyond the perception of most or maybe all human beings.  But without any perception of them, there is no way to “know” them - IF they do exist.  All we can rely on is what we can perceive.  Everything else is just idle chatter.  The scientific method is still the best method currently available for examining the universe and seeking truth.
    ---
    You seem to forget that the scientific method is a discipline for understanding our existence, much like religious thought, even though many things arrived at via the scientific method, and accepted, are later disproved.

    There are very similar parallels here, and it is a joke to focus on weaknesses while ignoring strengths, and missing the significant point entirely.

    http://godisnotanasshole.blogspot.com/

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  • #13322 by Gary Buell on 7/09 at 8:15 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I read The End of Faith recently and I thought it was a very provocative work. This would perhaps be a better world with more atheists and fewer believers. I myself am more a seeker than a believer but do believe in GOD most days. (I am an atheist on Sundays, however, as I do not believe in the Christian God.) Being is a great mystery and raises great questions,and I think that the answers must be beyond our comprehension, as is God, according to the theologians. God, as a concept, may be too small to contain the mystery, but I have not so far been impressed by attempts by atheists to do so. For may years I was an agnostic.

    Someone once said that simple, literal theism is false, and nonliteral theism is unintelligible. I may have proven that point. I do believe that there is one thing about which we can be certain: that the ultimate truth about this existence is not only more fantastic than we imagine (theists and atheists alike) but more fantastic than we can imagine.

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  • #12810 by John Coelho on 7/01 at 8:42 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Dear sam:

    You’re writing really valuable stuff but you don’t get that most secular people who have a good moral compass are people who are of a higher evolution than many other people who need a Daddy in the sky with a stick. I’ve seen people pull themselves away from alcoholism with primitive religious belief systems, precisely because that’s the only kind of belief system that works for them, because they are primitive people. You would get exactly nowhere with them with a secular ethical system and forget about getting them to do vipassana meditation which would increase their sensitivity and improve their behaviour from a basis of sensitivity.

    The real distinction is between truth seekers and believers. To the degree that you’re the former you’re not the latter and to the degree that you’re the latter you’re not the former. Truth seekers take beliefs and test them. If they prove themselves out they keep them. If not they discard them. Believers go on believing forever without any confirmation because it gives them a feeling of security and also to keep antisocial impulses at bay and give them a feeling of balance with others which is the primary genuine socially useful benefit of belief for those who, unlike you can’t develope their sensitivity through meditation.

    Although you present yourself as an atheist you don’t
    have the mechanistic world view of most atheists.Many people could read your writings and not understand that you’re a mystic because you do vipassana.
    In a healthy situation exoteric religion is controlled by esotericists who lie at the heart of a religion and don’t allow exoteric religion to get out of control. At its best it’s like the Santa Claus myth. It promotes good behaviour. When it promotes bad behaviour it has to go.

    An inductive approach to life in which a belief is validated or or if it isn’t is rejected applies to a number of phenomena that you haven’t, apparently had any contact with. For example, I have tested the idea that making offerings to Kali Ma, Shiva and other god/goddeses brings a feeling of joy. Most atheists would write this off as autosuggestion. I think you should investigate the fact that many Buddhistteachers don’t write off the validity of Buddhist deities from personal experience..

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  • #11093 by work2live biz on 6/03 at 9:19 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Between the end of April and the end of 1910, many American magazines published their own appraisals, recollections and tributes to MT. <a href= “http://www.allnetspace.com/directory/index.php?q=Dia monds+&search;-btn.x=56&search;-btn.y=21” >allnetspace com</a>These pieces are longer, and intended to be more thoughtful and definitive, than the newspaper notices. Many were written by MT’s friends and acquaintances. Twelve such essays, from eleven magazines, are available at present here.  <a href= “http://work2live.biz/pages/links2.php” >work2live biz </a> http://work2live.biz/pages/links2.php

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  • #10899 by Erwin Franzen on 6/01 at 1:35 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Your arguments in The Atheist Manifesto are solid and well-founded - excellent. It is high time we got rid of religion - all kinds of religion. Sometimes it looks to me like the USA itself has become a kind of religion to many people. This is very dangerous and goes very much against the views of one of its greatest founders, the much misunderstood and almost forgotten Tom Paine.
    Religion belongs to the past of humankind, definitely not its future, because there is no future for humankind with religion…

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  • #10616 by home mortgage calc on 5/29 at 4:41 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    In Seattle you may not carry a concealed weapon that is over six feet in length <a href= “http://www.mortgage--calc.com/” >home mortgage calc </a> http://www.mortgage--calc.com/

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  • #9105 by mANUEL aLTOBANO on 5/11 at 2:38 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Surprise me that you sold lots, considering all your wrote about are garbages of humanity.  You must love living in hell.

    How about the good stuffs that were accomplished, because of God.  America in God we trust. The country that born the devil like you.  The Roman Empire, Great Buildings.

    You are right there is no one God, there is only the human god, ever growing, ever changing.  I hope you join the human god(J.C., ALLAH,BUHDA, ETC.), and donate your money, energy, and time.  Please donate to me.
    I could used some your devilish money for the human god.

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  • #8626 by Alan Martinez on 5/04 at 1:25 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    There is also another pernicious effect of religion that has become apparent to me lately. This is an effect shared by Hegel and Marx as well. It is the sense given by religion that history has a shape and purpose, and that “everything will turn out all right in the end”. This sense that if we do nothing as individuals and as communities, and that “everything will turn out ok”, is an extremely dangerous attitude considering the challenges that human kind faces today. If we, as individuals or groups do not take responsiblity for our situation, things will NOT “turn out ok”. Belief in a “good” deity keeps people from taking responsiblity for their lives and their communities and is thus really harmful to society.

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  • #8070 by Ga on 4/27 at 9:24 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Oh yeah, prayer does not even work. Well, as someone who does believe in the idea that “it is the thought that counts,” praying can help the person praying in many positive ways.

    However, praying as a way to effect outcomes, or to cause things to happen, is not only without logic, it simply makes no sense.

    Of course, a religionist will say, after praying for someone’s health who recovers, “My prayers have been answered.” As was he or she would say, after praying for someone’s health who DOES NOT recover, “God had something else in mind for him/her I prayed for.”

    God works in mysterious ways? No.

    God “works” as a way for people to cope with disaster, dying and death. Religion has aphorisms and pithy sayings for each and every occurrance no matter the outcome or your prayers.

    “God” and “His” teachings are the creations of Man to try to understand the mysteries of the physical world without having understanding of his physical world. Things like lightning and cowpox are very frightening thing when your do not understand them.

    The Bible’s roots are interesting, in that Man eating from the Tree of Knowledge is a way to explain Man’s transformation from brutish pre-history into civilization and the beginnings of understanding. Of course, evolution explains the same thing, just in tens of thousands more words.

    Yet on into the history of Mankind religions and their doctrines are more of a way to control the general populous than anything else.

    Those how believe have been told to believe what they believe. A child growing up in a Muslim family is told to believe as a Muslim. A child growing up in a Christian family is told to believe as a Christian. Swap the two children and birth and you do not swap a Muslim and a Christian. You swap two children.

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  • #7821 by Ga on 4/25 at 9:48 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    The offering of a prayer to those whose faults lie in the want of logic is, of course, illogical. But then, no one ever said that deist religions are logical.

    That one would want to dispell logic as some form of black magic that dissuades the good from paths toward God, well, that is what religion does.

    Fear of logic means fear that one’s religon may be shown to be illogical.

    The point that has been lost by so many is that people are taught their religon. Who here, telling us of their faith in their religon, came to the faith through deep thought and contemplation? They all have been taught to believe what they believe as children.

    And human beings as they are, they dislike feelings of shame and embarassment, and will reject all outside arguments against their beliefs, rejecting even their own willingness for deep thought and contemplation.

    You have been taught to believe in the belief in a god my prayerful friend. You have been taught that the “Good Book” is the one and only true avenue toward morality. And as has been exposed so many time, that book is nothing but good. One may, of course, find some good in it. But then, the good --the only good--to be found their is Secular Humanist in nature.

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  • #7557 by Chip Thornton on 4/20 at 11:56 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Sam,

    If I thought for one moment that I had an obligation to explain to those who believe only in things discovered the logic behind my faith, I’d consider myself shortsighted indeed. I owe you nothing but a prayer, my friend.

    CT

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  • #7276 by Mike #2 on 4/16 at 12:17 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Indigobusiness wrote:  “Deeper truth lies in paradox and uncertainty, not rationalizations.  The bedrock of religion is not the shifting sand of foolish misapplications.

    An atheist’s take on religion is like a colorblinds’ version of the spectrum.  Get over your ideas of perception and beyond the dogma.  There you might, at least, find fertile ground for an argument.

    Religious truth is akin to quantum mechanics: it is a sticky wicket, but just because it isn’t easily grasped doesn’t discount it.”

    Hmmm… You speak with an assumed authority and CERTAINTY regarding an athesists take on religion, yet tell us that deeper truth lies in paradox and UNCERTAINTY. 
    Your analogy about religious truth being like quantum mechanics is similar gibberish.  How do you “know” this to be true?  Just because?  That doesn’t cut it.  I do not assume that anyone who claims to have first-hand “knowledge” of God is crazy or dishonest.  But I don’t accept as an objective fact, either.  If that person could provide sufficient evidence, I would change my opinion.  So far, no one has provided me with such evidence.  I agree that there may be phenomena beyond the perception of most or maybe all human beings.  But without any perception of them, there is no way to “know” them - IF they do exist.  All we can rely on is what we can perceive.  Everything else is just idle chatter.  The scientific method is still the best method currently available for examining the universe and seeking truth.

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  • #6878 by Indigobusiness on 4/11 at 3:42 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Deeper truth lies in paradox and uncertainty, not rationalizations.  The bedrock of religion is not the shifting sand of foolish misapplications.

    An atheist’s take on religion is like a colorblinds’ version of the spectrum.  Get over your ideas of perception and beyond the dogma.  There you might, at least, find fertile ground for an argument.

    Religious truth is akin to quantum mechanics: it is a sticky wicket, but just because it isn’t easily grasped doesn’t discount it.

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  • #6405 by Publicus on 4/04 at 10:49 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Morality, in my view, is characterized by empathy and benevolence toward others. Religious “morality” is mere obedience to authority.

    I also wonder about people who say that religion (i.e. “authority") is the basis for morality. What kind of person would say, kill, unless told by God not to?

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  • #4555 by Eddy1701 on 3/03 at 11:13 am
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Very good stuff, but there are a few problems if you ask me. For one, I myself don’t believe in an objective morality because I don’t see any way to prove an “ought” from an “is”. So far, all the ethical systems I’ve seen have failed to bridge that gap.

    It is indeed theoretically possible to discover ways to increase happiness, but how does that prove that happiness must be increased? The notion that happiness is better than pain and suffering is a subjective belief, not an objective fact. Afterall, a masochist might want to suffer and regard the denial of suffering as bad.

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  • #4383 by Soos on 2/28 at 5:14 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I love your articles.  You put into words a lot of the things I’d been thinking in vaguer terms. 

    “Were it not for religion, there might not have been a central organizing principle around which the Western world was formed...”
    What about the Code of the Hammurabi?  Matter of fact, that seems to be the central organizing principle around which Western religious morality was formed.

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  • #3889 by shirley ann newman on 2/15 at 6:43 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Yesterday I finished reading; The End of Faith. For the most part it’s in accord with my own perspectives. However, I don’t consider that the Soviet Union was--or that China and Cuba are--communist nations as defined by Karl Marx in das Kapital. The nations to which I just referred are ongoing dictatorships. In his book, Marx held the expectation that a communist nation woud evolve when the “dictorship of the proletariat” withered away, and became displaced by a democratically controlled nation in which the nation’s production is fairly and equitably distributed. Alas, his idealism did not foresee that power is a corrupting influence and that once a dictaorship has been established it remains stubbornly in place--until a violent revolution succeeds in overturning it.

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  • #3768 by Don on 2/14 at 9:23 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Here’s a thought.  It is not presented as a defense of religion as a source of morality.  It is just presented for consideration about the mechanics of establishing/maintaining morality in society.  (Reference here is to Christianity and the United States, but it applies more widely.)

    Religion, and it’s moral teachings, as we experience it in church, has two aspects:  first, the moral code one ascribes to the bible, and second, the fact that people gather, weekly, is significant numbers at church to hear about that code.  Relegating religion to the status of perposterous myths may have the beneficial effect of freeing our culture of irrational and falacious beliefs, but eliminating churches also has the effect or removing a significant platform from which morality is espoused.

    It’s true that the morality widely preached is, thankfully, an edited verions of the full teachings of the Bible, but its dissemination is currently accomplished is some great measure by the church.  If religions go the way of the dodo, then so do churches, and so does one of the significant venues in which morality is taught in our culture.  While it may well be true that there are better sources of morality than religious texts, are there better, more widely attended venues for teaching such morality?  What are they?  It would seem that without churches there is a paucity of institution getting the job done with at least some semblance of coherence.

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  • #3614 by Tyler Frusciante on 2/13 at 1:10 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Sam. 

    Josef Stalin was not as bad as everyone makes him out to be. Stalin was profoundly couragous. It was only because of the conflict between capitalism and communisim that he was forced to make such sacrifices. if the british and americans would have done there part and participated in world war two in the beginning,to fight hitler instead of allowing hitler to attack vulnerable russia and do their dirty work for them while americans waited back on the sidelines, Stalin would not have resorted to such drastic measures to save his country.  why is it that when the opposite side defends itself they are evil?  on the other hand george bush can kill innocent people in irag and exploit the poor in america and he is a hero ??

    my point being.  you do so well to see through all the religious dogma, I hope you will look through all the political dogma and lies as well

    Long Live Socialism !!!

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  • #3535 by Kande Trefil on 2/11 at 1:25 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Some feel religion is useless. 

    I beg to differ!  Without religion, some of the best satire ever written would have no basis.

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  • #3490 by Beatrice Cader on 2/10 at 4:00 pm
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Hello Sam!