Of course he facilitated it. He gave Bushco the excuse. He gave them the weapon of fear to wield over the US public.

And in terms of hypocrisy, Bin Laden is a giant in the field.

Freddie and Marshall:

I had sincerely hoped that Monday morning would bring a fresh start, but we seem to be mired in the same Jurassic tar pit.

Just for the record, beginning any response with “You people” is pretty arrogant and self-serving. I’d be careful where I use that opener: it will get your nose flattened.“You people” implies that “you people” are better than “my people”. You wonder why we have stupid fights in this country? When we have better things to do? Try some ethno-sensitive proof-reading.

1. I think both you of have your hatbands pulled down too tight. It has something to do with bloodflow to the brain. 

2. You are both myopic xenophobes.And redactive and 19th century reactionary.

3. You are both confusing patriotism with guiltlessness. “Let he who is without”, and “cast the first stone” and all that? Do you own one of those Bible things? Have you never screwed up anything in your entire life? Or are you both pure as the driven snow?

4.I’m not “equating” the US with anybody. Where did you get that? Your self-righteousness is showing through, again.  Speak for yourself, not me or anybody else. See#8.

5. Your right-wing solution to “move away” or change countries is foolish, short-sighted and counter-productive. Better, I think, that we all should stay here and hash this out. Do you have the stomach for that? It takes patience and open-mindedness. Be careful what you ask for or your neighbor will soon be asking you to leave, as well. 

6.I have no idea why either of you are reading TruthDig.Did you not read the masthead? Are you lost? Or perhaps Truthdig has lost its footing. That would be sad. And talking about not paying taxes doesn’t exactly work within the framework of this discussion or the philosphy of this website. You need to remember that things get done best for everyone when we work within the system, and not work to break it up, willy-nilly.  You probably believe Dubya is the Decider, too?

7. Just because other countries have poor human rights and criminal war records doesn’t give the US a free pass to screw people. If we weren’t so smugly convinced we are so wonderful, we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in. Why can’t you seem to spell “humility”? See # 4.

8. You both keep putting your words in my mouth. This is the newly honed media art of “sound biting”. America is losing its ideological principals to eupemisms and philospohical statements no longer than a bumper sticker (see Bill Moyers). Trite, convenient logic reductions will make you feel comfortable, warm and fuzzy but won’t get you very far down the road of honest introspection. You may not have noticed, but every time you open your mouth, you just change feet. Your arguments are circular and more defensive than forward-looking.

You would both do well to go back and the read the timeless quote, “The unexamined life is not worth living”.

I’m outta here: I just remembered you can’t have a meaningful dialogue with a fencepost.

“We” are not terrorists.

You people are pretending you don’t understand Mr Fish’s rhetorical purpose for using the word terrorism as opposed to slavery or any other more accurate word he could have chosen.  And you too reveal your extremism.

Both you and Mr Fish are basically saying, “but but, we terrorized too…in a way…cuz like slavery and genocide are technically something that would “terrorise” individuals per the classical definition of the word.  Right?”  What purpose do you and Mr Fish have for rationalizing the use of that word in this context?

What level of hate do you think the US deserves?  Do you think the US “had it coming”?

You don’t know me.  I know all too well there are plenty of legitimate reasons why people hate America.  I argue it all the time and I’m an activist that stands on the left because I want that to change.

Let me spell it out:

By listing terrorism specifically as a reason to hate America, Mr Fish is doing what you are doing; he’s saying, “but but…we’re terrorists too”.  This is meant to justify the hate of certain people.  You know who.  The vast majority of the Muslim Arab world hates America for good reason and even though I don’t believe it’s healthy for anyone to harbor any level of hate, I certainly can’t blame them.  But there are a certain few that are simply evil and take that hate to a whole new extreme.  And THAT hate is unjustifiable - period.  Mr Fish should have left them out of his vindication.

One would be hard pressed to name a country with a clean record - a country that committed no crimes against humanity in centuries past.  How many countries deserve to be hated Mr.Hentschel?  Which ones deserve a punishment for their past or current transgressions?  Which transgressions have earned the level of hate that would drive one to kill droves of random civilian citizens of said country?  How would you justify such hate?

You can’t.

the spirit of hypocrisy in the USA succinctly illustrated in this cartoon. From Osama Bin Laden to the ubiquitous TV evangelists, organised religious movements have facilitated the degradation of American standards of fairness and decency, there’s no getting around that simple obvious fact.

OK, Freddie. Let’s just run this into the ground.

As far as Mr. Fish’s use of the “word” goes, it is, in this case, tantamount to a long overdue admission of guilt, on our part. If we were to finally appear at least a bit repentant about our past and present actions here and around the globe, the world might not hate us so much, and we would have fewer “terrorists” banging on our doors and blowing things up, both at home and around the world.

Besides the failure on your part to recognize the obvious and proclivity to nit-pick, I was unaware that there was any substantive difference between the senseless deaths of innocents from a terrorist suicide bombing (on any scale) and those of the brutal murders of defenseless native peoples (your genocide)at the hands of the US calvary or the BIA today, all of it just callous neglect and indfference.  Sorry, but being white and having might doesn’t make you right.  I think living and dying under those circumstances would qualify the victims as being “terrorized”.

Living in perpetual fear is what constitutes terror. We aren’t, right now, but we sure know how to cause it around the world. THAT is what Mr. Fish is talking about. You should stop splitting hairs, in order to make yourself feel better.

Similarly, if you, as an African American, were living in slavery, subjected daily to all manner of abuse, maiming, lynching and a continual denial of your basic human rights, that probably would qualify as living in a state of fear and terror,as well. Some penitance here wouldn’t hurt, either. Instead, I read daily about the threats on the life of Obama, just because he is black. How “terrible” is that? Some people sem to think that is SOP for life in America. Does that not constitute a form of terror?

And, heck, while we are at it, let’s consider the 24/7 state of the terrorized minds of the innocent Iraqi or Afghani families who are routinely bombed from above, almost daily,living without adequate food, water or shelter, and who may easily be unjustly and randomly shot by some jerk in a Blackwater helo. Most people, I think,  would call that form of existence “terrible”, as well.

I suggest that you buy a good dictionary, study up on your vocabulary and take a good, long look in the mirror. If you can get over being unduly offended, and sanctmoniously affronted, by what has happened and what is happening, every day,  you might find yourself staring back at the same terrorist reflection that we all do, every time we can be honest about it. 

It all stinks, but it’s all true.

So you too have forgotten what actual terrorism is in a mere 7 years, Ivan?  Using the word “terrorism” the way “Mr Fish” did is certainly loose-lipped.  Is it not?  It equates the US government to actual terrorists.  You cannot rationalize terrorism.

Terrorism is something specific.  So is genocide.  And so is slavery.  What the US did to the native Americans was genocide.  What the US did to African Americans was slavery.  Some of what the US is doing now is very wrong, but it is not genocide, it’s not slavery and it’s certainly not terrorism.  Do you understand?

“Mr Fish” knows what he’s doing.  He is sympathizing with those that hate America.  He’s basically saying “we brought this hate upon ourselves” - which is true and he makes a good point.  But he takes it way to far by throwing in the word “terrorism”.  By rationalizing terrorism specifically, in an attempt to equate US governments policies to it, Mr Fish is vindicating terrorists themselves; hence my comment that he is being a traitor.  Terrorists are our enemies.  Period.  They are different than us.  Unlike us they are purely evil.  And the US never did anything to deserve their attacks.

“Mr Fish” should not have used that word.

I get it Mr. Hentschel.  I get it loud and clear.

It seems really a shame, Freddie, that you don’t get it. Most of what the US has been doing to non-white, non-caucasian peoples in the last nearly three hundred years is pretty obscene. I doubt that any of the millions of displaced Iraqi civilians with dead family members would call us anything less than terrorists. And I suppose you think we have been kind to native Americans, disenfranchised African Americans and the countless porr of America without adequate housing or health care?

Wake up and look around. And stop throwing around loose-lipped, divisive words like “traitor”.

Mr. Fish is the unvarnished and necessarily realistic and truthful ugly and raw voice/face of America.

The reality would seem to be, that most people in the US really believe this canard to be the case. They really, honestly believe we love dogs and little children and care about the world. But the truth is that, “Hi. I’m here from the government, and I’m here to help you”, is a giant crock.

Yes, the dog should run like hell, but he should bite Sam repeatedly, first before he does so. Some bloodletting is in order.

If I were that dog, I’d run like hell!