Whether or not some of those 600,000 murders were done by Islamists or not does not mean Bush is not the one responsible.
Bush is the one who defeated and stripped the secular Baathists of power, and gave it to the Islamic fundamentalists.
So Bush is responsible for ALL the murders.

Comment #44472 by Eleanore Kjellberg on 12/30 at 8:57 am

“He’s got everybody everywhere in his hands,
He’s got the whole world in his hands.”

Thanks Elenore, you just made my coffee come back up through my nose. Who would have guessed the Apocalypse could offer up such pearls of humour?

Thanks again.

“God has said, ‘I pulled you out of the mud [a more contemporary translation would probably use “shit” here!]; now you come here and listen to me!’” We probably DID pull Iraqis out of the shit they were in (even if much of it was of our own making); but we cannot now expect them to all come and listen to us if we really do not have anything to say.”

Yeah, we’re now in very deep Shit in Iraq, and someone like Bush is capable of doing a lot of damage in the next two years.

BTW, Comment #45194 is right—both Democrats and Republicans are full of shit!  God might have pulled us out of the crap but, we fell right back in!

I rate the damage and the death rate for Bush policy in Iraq as being just as gruesome and barbaric as the Holocaust was for the Jews.
The Bush clan still advocate many of Hitler’s ways. The drive for complete power is there and the need to see human suffering and torture are there. What more endearments to Hitler could Bush wish for?

In the heat of all these dueling ideologies, I wonder if anyone has bothered to go beyond fundamentalist literalism and look at the Old Testament as one of the earliest philosophical reflections on governance.  Consider the content of the latter four Books of Moses (Exodus through Deuteronomy).  This begins as a story of slavery under a vicious and oppressive autocrat, but the story does not end with the act of liberation.  Instead, it leads to forty years of wandering in a wilderness remote from any known civilization.  There is a lot of internal strife and dissent over those forty years.  One might almost call it a chronicle of God’s chosen people trying to convince God that (s)he had made the wrong choice.  However, divine wisdom ultimately recognizes that the underlying problem is one of governance;  and, for better or worse, that governance is DICTATED, not just in the Ten Commandments but for most of the content of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.  Meanwhile, those forty years elapse;  and the laws of governance coincide with the end of Moses’ life on the threshold of the Promised Land.  However, Moses is not the only one who has passed by this time.  The prevailing argument is that most of the slave generation has passed with him, followed by a generation with no knowledge of life in Egypt and little guidance other than the laws that Moses has been “recording from dictation.”

Students of history know that no government ever emerges, fully-formed, from some declaration of independence, rights, or principles.  It is not an engineering project involving a “clean” implementation of a “design specification.”  It is far messier;  and the best we can ever do is learn from past messes, whether they are in the Old Testament or more “modern” revolutions, be they in America, France, or Russia.  Even Plato, who is probably the only “god” worshiped by the neoconservatives, understood how messy this all was.  To invoke the metaphor of one of my friends in Singapore, it is naive to assume that there is ever “an answer in the back of the book;”  but this is exactly what the neoconservatives expected to apply in Iraq.  We are now purging ourselves of that Kool-Aid;  but that will not suffice to purge Iraq of the mess left in its wake.

Perhaps there IS a role for religion in resolving the current situation.  People seem more receptive to “long view” stories from religious sources than they are to similar accounts in history books.  The philosophical side of Islam certainly recognizes this “long view,” which, in turn, teaches that messes are rarely “solved” but are simply “worked out” over the course of time.  If faith provides a way to endure that course of time when things are as horrific as they are presently, then it is hard to criticize it.  It may even acknowledge that the present horror is the price of delivery from a past horror, which may, in that “long view,” have been even greater.

As I recall, I was once taught that the Kabbalah has a comment on the First Commandment, presented in question-and-answer form.  The question is:  “Why does the First Commandment say ‘I am the Lord thy God who has brought thee out of the house of bondage?’  Why does is not say, ‘I am the Lord thy God who has created heaven and earth?’”  The answer is:  “Heaven and earth is far to much for a mere mortal mind to comprehend.  God has said, ‘I pulled you out of the mud [a more contemporary translation would probably use “shit” here!];  now you come here and listen to me!’”  We probably DID pull Iraqis out of the shit they were in (even if much of it was of our own making);  but we cannot now expect them to all come and listen to us if we really do not have anything to say.

A civil war is better then resitance against the occupation.

Sunnis/former baathists make up most of the resistance. You also have the badr brigades, Sadr’s crew, and misc. opportunists, gangs, and for-hire guns…not to mention about 75,000 American military contractors with no accountability to the US public.

Fundamentalist factions make up the death squads that drop bodies on the streets with drill holes in their heads as a warning to those who would fight with the resistance. They are loyal to the shia factions and they also have a majority.

Sunnis/Baathists, with support from Saudi Arabia, will not allow themselves to be slaughtered by these extremist groups. So they defend themselves, while simultaneously fighting US troops.

US troops don’t really know who they are fighting because there are so many factions vying for power in Iraq, along with outside influence.

Would “Islamists” have killed 600,000 if the conditions were not established to do so…who set those conditions in motion?

Saddam was convicted for the murder of 100+ people, not thousands, or hundreds of thousands. Why? Because this would reveal some dirty laundry that Americans would rather not acknowledge.

This is what happens when you get caught up playing policemen of the world, this neo-colonial imperial strategy of the 20th century is not sustainable and has already relegated the US to a hyperpower in decline.

There were distant voices in both parties that came forward, but with the massive PR(“perception management”) campaign against American public opinion, they were drowned out by the roar of the crowds.

Back to Iraq…stay and more will die, leave, and more will die. This is the roar of the crowd again, wich will lead into a collective conspiracy of silence about the interests of the American people as a whole and further extend the occupation(buying time) to secure the oil fields and complete the mega bases.

These mega-bases will be under constant threat, and as such, a reign of terror using temporary proxies such as the shia or sunni to fight each other is the order of death on the menu.

Spreading democracy is not as easy as putting butter on bread, so Americans can only hope a new Saddam rises, by pitting these factions against each other and praying for a victor who will rule with an iron fist and be sympathetic to US interests…much like Saddam.

The good news, at least for war profiteers, within a decade or two, Iraq will be ripe for another “freedom agenda”, that is, if the US taxpayer can afford it by that time.

Neoconservatives and Neoliberals are two sides of the same coin(just ask the Kristols), and both factions have hijacked the foreign policy of the political parties that have adopted them.

Just follow the money and you’ll know why the best interest of Americans will never be considered. More money will be spent causing inflation/hyperflation, civil liberties will continue to be eroded, and the US will transition from a part-time militaristic society/culture, to a full on banana republic dominated by a small clique of absolutists who will have no choice but to impose “the freedom agenda” that we are seeing in Iraq, right in the good ol’ USA.

There is no political “side” to choose from in America, there is the artificial aristocracy and the natural aristocracy, this has been the case since the “revolution of 1800”. Within this spectrum, one “side” fears and distrusts the people, the other side finds confidence and honesty in the people.

You can see and decide for yourself who “fears” or “identifies” with the people using common sense, no “kool-aid” is necessary.

Isn’t it better to have Iraqis fighting each other then turning all their guns on US troops?

Isn’t it better to have Americans debating each other then turning all their political activism against the artificial aristocracy?

Please continue shopping citizens.

“You actually think you are an independant thinker? Hilarious.”

Frank,
How did you become so arrogant; did you digest an A-Hole capsule, or did you get hit by a BS mobile?

You say this and you say that; but what are you really saying—it seems like you’re saying nothing.

Frank,
Your statement was Islamists killed 600,000+ in Iraq not Bush. This leads me to the conclusion that you are in deep denial and most likely trying to give Bush a pass. That statement on it’s face is false. Our troops, our bombs, our bad policy and lack of planning are major factors. These conditions did not exist before Bush decided to invade the country. Therefor many believe that he is primarily responsible for those deaths. He set the wheels in motion. You don’t share that view despite all of the evidence. When someone comes to a conclusion that is based on wishful thinking and not facts, and one is willing to make such a ridiculous statement using GOP termionlogy (Islamists) that would lead me to believe that you have indeed drunk the kool aid.
You are correct I am not a foreign policy expert. I am just a schmuck but I certainly don’t get my news from cable. Nor do I have much respect for what passes for news on the TV. I do my homework the old fashioned way. I read, objectively, rationally and sift through what is credible and not credible information to come to an informed conclusion. I don’t need to be a foreign policy expert. I can use the internet(s) to read the analysis of foreign policy experts. Many of which were Republican by the way, who predicted everything that’s gone wrong in Iraq. People like yourself can sit back all smug convinced you are smarter than the average bear. But all you do is display your ignorance with confidence. You are a cynic, I am a skeptic. There is a big difference. I pay attention to what’s going on daily, write my congressmen regularly and give them hell whether they are a D or an R. I have always been highly critical of Clinton and other DLC Democrats. However, I don’t need to prove anything to you. I just wish YOU guys, whatever you call yourself, would show a little humility and perhaps open your eyes to how duped you’ve been.

Although US forces didn’t kill most of those people, the US overthrew Saddam’s regime which created the power vacuum that killed most of them, and more have now died as a result of that power vacuum than under Saddam’s regime.

To blame a nation of people who knew nothing but centuries of despotic rule and sectarian divisions for not behaving as if they lived in a modern western society, when a majority of them already resent the US for going there in the first place, is just being painfully naive.

“There is no kool-aid from the left”.

You can’t possibly be that naive.  Bing, that you assume I am a conservative or a Bush supporter ( I am neither), for pointing out the misleading nature of these claims perfectly illustrates that you are indeed drinking the kool-aid and engaging in simplistic group-think from the left. Funny how you can toss an accusation like that at me but get all righteously offended when it is turned on you. Truth-Dig is one of many examples of the Kool-aid from the left and you sure are chugging it down.  Like many on this board you can’t seem to see the political landscape except in a simplistic us-or-them mentality. Someone is either a tow-the-line leftist who blames every death in Iraq on Bush or they must be a brainwashed Bush supporter.

I love how you are making all these claims of “we told you” as if you are some foreign-policy-educated expert who was on CNN before the war making statements. In all likelihood you were just an average schmuck with little real first-hand knowledge walking around parroting something you heard a liberal pundit say (kool-aid),  and now would like to claim it as your own informed wisdom because it seems to have merit now.

You actually think you are an independant thinker? Hilarious.

Oh my God.

I think the definition of insanity must have the words “American” and “Conservative” in it somewhere.

I particularly like the statement saying Bush did not kill the 600,000+ dead in Iraq. Oh, sure, like he did not pull the trigger, well duh! But one has to actually think to understand what that 600,000+ number really means. It means that there have been, an as accurate extrapolation of death statistics one can perhaps get (the accuracy not in dispute apparently), 600,000+ Iraqi deaths since the war that Bush started (as he has stated that he started it).

The actual question at hand is, of those 600,000+, how many were directly or indirectly caused by American military action? Think carefully. A bomb or bullet kills, but so does lack of food, water and medicine.

Surely, as one has implied, “Islamists” killed some of those 600,000+. But considering that Coalition Forces must have killed some of them, directly and indirectly, a bold and absolute statement that “Islamists” killed them, and by implication that “Bush” did not kill anyone them, is of course, absurd.

Even given the benefit of the doubt that the comment was hasty, and meant to say that some of the 600,000+ were Iraqi on Iraqi deaths, which is certainly true, one must still remember that if there had been no American invasion of Iraq those 600,000+ would not have been killed.

One could end this discussion of “how to be a moronic Bush apologist in an online forum,” but it gets better.

I really, really like the implication that America’s invasion and overthrowing of the Iraqi government was giving some sort of choice to the Iraqi people. Hmmm, our tanks and bombs and kicking down of doors and the CPA orders such as De-Baathification (something that in a morbid twist of irony the Nazis did to Jews in Germany) has all been part of our grand plan of giving the Iraqi people choice?

And, our good little patriotic poster says, “Look how they paid us for giving them choice! Civil war with their neighbors!”

To the Bush War supporters:

ARE YOU THAT INSANE?

HOW DARE YOU REMAIN UTTERLY CONVINCED THAT THE WAR WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

America has brought untold death and misery upon another nation and you what, declare now with full conviction that it was “their” fault?

Insane. That is what this is.

Kool aid from the left?!? Frank, please. There is no kool aid for the left. We aren’t that well organized nor are we as like minded as most consrvatives. Conservatives are followers and that is what you are doing. Abandoning rational and objective criticism or dialogue you stick with overly simplistic opinions and attitudes. I’m sure you think you have the left all figured out. I assure you, you do not. The left told you so. We don’t even want to rub it in, we want to fix the problem your guys created. Some suggest pulling out immediately like Kucinich one of the Democratic Party’s honest to God liberals. Others want phased withdrawals, etc. But we have to get your guys to stop before we can do anything! And you still want to hurl petty criticism and stand behind someone who has proven themselves unworthy of our trust. Wrong before 9/11, wrong after 9/11. We attacked a country and occupied it despite other more pressing threats. We didn’t have militant Islam in Iraq before we invaded. Saddam was once our ally remember? Despite his being a savage he kept the peace. Even Bill O’Reilly says so. Point being, Bush has been wrong about our national security, our standing in the world compromised consideerably. We are owned by the Chinese. And all these failures predicted by the left are now bearing the painful fruit. So much so that the apathetic electorate sprung to life to give your guys the boot because your guys have failed. Your guys vision of America; wrapped in capitalism and the myth of free markets; the Bush Doctrine, torture policies, civil liberties restrained etc. etc. etc. Face facts, your guys screwed up, wouldn’t listen, mocked us and called us traitors and have made one mistake after another. And you accuse me of drinking kool aid!?! I just pay attention to what’s happening. It’s my civic duty as it is yours so please start and stop blaming the messenger for saying what you don’t want to hear or accept.

to all of your “truthdigging” i say SO WHAT?

have you improved anything

And what pray tell have the billions of dollars and thousands of deaths in this misguided ego trip of Chimpy’s in Iraq done?  Has it improved anything? Nah.

Alas poor Yorick!  The president is an idiot.

“Liberals like Kucinich lament the deaths of 600,000 but like call for the immediate withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq. What do you think that will lead to?  All out civil war and deaths in the millions is what.  The democratically elected Iraqi government is not capable of maintaining peace and order on it’s own yet.  Invasion was a mistake but immediate withdrawal would be an even bigger mistake.”

Frank,
Every prediction made by conservatives about Iraq’s future turned out to be false—we should pull-out now, and not allow another man or woman to lose their lives refereeing a civil war.

3,000 dead troops were lost in a FANCIFUL scheme that was ill-conceived and incompactly administered.

Frank and Dave…guys.. I have a bridge for ya…wanna buy it?  NO?!  How about a used war..you want that?..with all its ‘glory’ (gag)!

Bing…Not only did many intelligent people oppose this fiasco from the beginning, but also the Shrubs ol’man also opposed it.  You might remember that he wrote a book in which he explained why he did not topple Saddam.  And all of those were reasons that have now come to pass, thanks to the idiot we have in office that does not ‘read’, or listen to good advise.
Lastly you might recall that Darth (Cheney) also said that given the chance we would do exactly the same thing over again!!!!!!!!!!!!  Einstein called this insanity…doing the same thing and expecting different results!

So…Frank, Dave…take off your Bush colored glasses and view Iraq policy for what it is, a life giving, err on the side of life, Christian family value…or a Fiasco, your choice.

Headless

Bing, I think you are still drinking the kool aid from the left, which is no better than the kool aid from the right.  Personally, I don’t drink any of it.  I prefer to think for myself.

Liberals like Kucinich lament the deaths of 600,000 but like call for the immediate withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq. What do you think that will lead to?  All out civil war and deaths in the millions is what.  The democratically elected Iraqi government is not capable of maintaining peace and order on it’s own yet.  Invasion was a mistake but immediate withdrawal would be an even bigger mistake.

Frank and Dave,
You are still drinking the kool aid. We were fools to “liberate” Iraq. You can’t admit that liberals were right to criticize Bush’s desire to do so. We told you it wouldn’t be a cake walk that violence would arise along sectarian lines, that democracy was not going to flourish and that we would not be safer. The 600,000+ dead Iraqis are a direct result of Bush’s failed policies. Incidentally our military has done a lot of the killing of innocent civilians not just the “Islamists.” We were right then, we are right now. I’m sorry you are still in denial.

“Many chose a better future, but too many chose to follow their murderous religious hatreds into a civil war with their neighbors”

Frank,
You can thank the US for that outcome—let’s hear it for democracy!

Pol Pot of Khmer Rouge just got a new buddy who is GWB.

Congratulations to both. They have to need much more Guillotines for their works done and more empty fields to make their “KILLING FIELDS”.

Pol Pot of Khmer Rouge just got a new buddy = GWB

Congratulations to both. They need more and more Guillotines for their works done !

A perfect summation. I trust you will do another when Bush celebrates the doubling of his skull pile.

He’s got everybody everywhere in his hands,
He’s got the whole world in his hands.

Just think, had he ratified United States participation in the International Criminal Court system, he would never have had this opportunity!

to all of your “truthdigging” i say SO WHAT?

have you improved anything?

Islamists killed 600,000+ in Iraq, not Bush.

Americas removal of Saddam from power gave the Iraqis people the power to determine their own future.  Many chose a better future, but too many chose to follow their murderous religious hatreds into a civil war with their neighbors.