Gerard:

Your response to OM is amazing.  What you are basically suggesting is that two wrongs DO make a right.  That it is okay for the Occupy movement to “demand” and “threaten” the occupation of someone’s or some group’s private property BECAUSE the “system” that caused the movement is broken and corrupt.  That argument is devoid of either logic or common sense.  Instead, it is an appeal to “doing the wrong thing” because “the wrong thing” is being done to you - by OTHER than the target of your wrong action.

Sorry, but I find that line of reasoning…unreasonable.

Peace.

Osark Michael:  “...what is so gentle and loving about DEMANDING someone let you Occupy their property? And what is loving in you threatening to just take it? In this matter and this method OWS is in the wrong.’
  What is so gentle and loving in “the system” demanding from millions of its citizens that, even though they have no way to earn money (no matter how talented or eager or honest) they can be forced out of their house for lack of payments, and made to go hungry whilc “the system” wastes billions of dollars on kiling people in foreign countries?
  What is so “loving” in “the system” putting you in jail if you protest?
  Is it not “double standards” to permit the rich to exploit the middle class and the “underprivileged” and yet deny the middle class and the “underprivileged” the right to protest which is guaranteed to them by the Constitution?

Chris is spot-on!  He is calling on the greater Mind, the Spirit Within us all.  Whom did Jesus address?  The same Mind and Spirit within all people.  It is God-like to help others.  It is worthy to give and give and give more.  This is Spiritual, like Jesus.  And he understood the physical realm.

I honor Chris for speaking out, for calling on the churches to do what they should be doing, for God’s sake!  Churches stand empty most of the time,  Empty! 

The churches have a shortened life-span left if they can’t rise to this occasion.  Religions are nearly passe.  They only make themselves relevant when they stand up for the common people and encourage the Spirit Within.  Religions and the churches have been guilty of controlling the people and maintaining power over the masses long enough, to keep them submissive.

It is time for the Assay of the Churches to begin.  That means the churches are being tested.  Will they pass or fail?  Are churches and religions a part of our lives or irrelevant?  Do they think they exist in an ivory tower, not to be tainted by the struggles of the people? 

“The World is Watching” all churches, all religions!  It would be wise to open their doors to OWS and gain new life.

There is something bothering me all week about Chris Hedges line of thinking. It is a bit subtle but I think important, so explaining it is worth a try.

Not quite 100 years ago the Leftist faction known as Bolsheviks took over in Russia with the help of a wide spectrum of people, including other communists, anarchists, socialists, atheists, Christians, Jews, and every other stratum of society. As a result of the turmoil of revolution and perhaps a bad harvest there was a famine. I think it was 1921.

Lenin saw a double advantage to the tragedy, where they could use the famine to weaken the Russian Orthodox Church. One can read Lenin’s letter to the other Communist leaders to verify this scheme.

At Lenins urging the Leftist state demanded that the church cough up all its gold and jewels for the sake of the famine. The Communists quoted the gospel, perhaps using some of the very verses that Leftists here are using, to pressure the church! Eventually the church agreed, but the archbishop insisted that he must ‘see the gold turned into food and go directly into mouths of the starving’. In other words the proceeds from the church valuables must be used for the famine and not merely to enrich the Communist state.

Lenin didnt like that idea! He wanted to break the power of the church and that compromise was unacceptable. Eventually Lenin got what he wanted: A show trial, in which the archbishop of the Russian Orthodox Church was placed on trial for not submitting to the government. Then the church valuables and much church property was confiscated at gunpoint. And best of all hundreds of thousands of Christians ended up in jail for resisting. (That was just the beginning of a story that Leftist Christians would rather not know about, so i stop for now. Suffice to say that most Leftist Christians learned the hard way that Leftist revolutions might get rid of an irksome government but inevitably replace it with a truly monstrous totalitarian government)

Now this OWS demand, which Chris Hedges and other here trumpet, is to me an faint echo of that 1921 incident. The church has to choose the radical Leftist side and has to do what Leftists want or they will use force to take it from the church.

You OWS supporters make me nervous. Imagine if OWS really succeeds beyond its wildist dreams. In that hypothetical situation, it is known that power doesnt make people kinder, it makes them meaner. OWS is weak now. It has a communist faction. Imagine if they were powerful… what would stop them from forcing much more?

As you Christians try to ingratiate yourselves with Communists and other radicals, remember what happened in Russia, when many Leftists like yourself supported the revolution and fought on the side of such Communist monsters as Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin.

OWS uses threats on Trinity Church to allow them to Occupy, and that threat is evident. “if you dont give permission, we will Occupy Trinity without permission.”

You have a responsibility to look at where today’s events could lead. Remember that when radical Leftists succeed, Christians end up losing many rights, often their lives. That is why you should NOT support the use of force against other Christians, even if you dont like them. It is very bad precedent.

And for those of you who say you are all about “love”, what is so gentle and loving about DEMANDING someone let you Occupy their property? And what is loving in you threatening to just take it? In this matter and this method OWS is in the wrong.

Maani said:

“Jesus was a Radical, and ever since He died, we have been trying to turn Him into a Conservative.”

This is the theological debate that OM and I have been engaged in.  In my opinion, Jesus was, indeed, a radical in many ways, not least with respect to economics, and particularly the poor.

I agree, so that isnt what we are debating about. At least thats how i see it.

Let me try my hand at framing the debate between us. Jesus is often described as a ‘revolutionary’. The term is not correct, because he is something else outside of politics. Let Him inform your life and the principles you vote by, but dont ask him to rubber stamp your political views. It doesnt sound any better to me when you do it than when conservatives do it.

In my opinion, yes Jesus was interested in radical generosity by individuals as a result of a radical reorientation of their hearts, and if combinations of indiviuals wish to combine and coordinate their generosity, that was done by the instrument known as the church. Check the New Testament to see if I am right.

In contrast, Christian Leftists hope to have the state forcefully extract radical generosity from working people. The argument between Maani and I is a disagreement is about whether Jesus is represented by an ever increasing state power over our lives.

Historically, the Leftist state needs to exercise tyrannical power to extract radical generosity from working people. That tyrannical power would be abused in other aspects of our lives, and would immediately do more harm than good. We would lose our freedom. Worse yet it would be difficult to change such a state. History has proven my point of view to be correct.

That is my view of our argument.

Gerard:

“Jesus was not much interested in ‘facilities’.”

Indeed.  His original statement that “Where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am,” has led to a broader - correct - belief that “A church is not a building, but the people who worship there.”

“‘Give all that thou hast ...’”  All.  Not some.  Not what is convenient.”

Bravo again.  It is worth quoting the passage:

“The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?”

“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

“But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

“Jesus was a Radical, and ever since He died, we have been trying to turn Him into a Conservative.”

This is the theological debate that OM and I have been engaged in.  In my opinion, Jesus was, indeed, a radical in many ways, not least with respect to economics, and particularly the poor.  And although I believe He would support the Occupy movement in spirit, He might have some problems with their “us vs. them” approach.

Peace.

If Geewiz were alive today he would be very old. That said I belive the great
one would support the OWS. Why you ask? Well simply put banks tend to
be a bit nasty toward fishermen in sandals. Not to mention window
shoppers, and all those who don’t worship their god “Paperman ” who hath
bestowed upon the rightous pickpocket all manner of goodness. Sinners
like the great one who preach outdoors shall be cast down with the
multitude of multipliers who smell kinda funny on warm days. Amen

to Peter Knopfler

How the Tora is calling Non-Jews?

Regardless of Trinity’s attempts to placate all involved parties at the same time, however, there will be an attempt to occupy the space without permission on the 17th of December if the church does not open the property to the movement by that date.

Apparently OWS feels its Occupation rights take precedence over the rights of everyone else, including a nearby church.

Chris Hedges reads Christians an either/or with, “Either you Christians support my social/political cause… or Christianity is dead and irrelevent.”

Its bad enough that he allows no room to conscientiously dissent from his opinion, he also wants to force his either/or upon us immediately by Occupying a church property. Christians must give in, Christians must all make that church yield its lot to OWS, or there is no Christianity in America.

Does anyone buy into that?

SORRY I LIKE CHRIS A LOT!  THE RABBI HAMMERED ON A
ROMAN PAGAN CROSS IS A LIE FRAUD RIGHT FROM CONSTANTINE
WHO POPULARIZED “THE CROSS OR SWORD: SHAME FOR CALLING
JEWS THE CHRIST KILLER; OR THE KORAN CALLING ME PIGS
AND MONKEYS RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM NOT MONEY!SO WHERE
WAS I WHEN THOUSANDS OF JEWS HAMMERED TO WOOD THE TREE
OF LIFE BECOME TREE OF DEATH THANKS TO ROMANS.
CONSTANTINE THE PAGAN STARTED CHRISTIANITY:
“BEWARE,BEWARE OF THE MAN OF ONE BOOK, FOR HE IS FILLED
WITH HALF TRUTHS; AND THERE IS NO GREATER LIE THAN HALF
TRUTH”=PLATO! I WAS STANDING IN TRUTH, WHERE WERE YOU!

@ gerard:  Your comment was perfect.  I was going to provide the link to Chris Hedge’s speech on my parish’s FB page.  The only priest in my neck of the woods that is willing to call it like is and speak out does not have a “dedicated” church.  He is the founder of Hope House Ministries.  I have heard virtually nothing regarding Occupy Wall Street in any sermon in the Catholic Church I attend.  In the Prayer of the Faithful the troops are prayed for in this phony war on terror, but not the innocent thousands that we have murdered overseas.  You hit the nail on the head, though.  These pastors and the priests that belong to these churches are trying to have their cake and eat it, too.  While there are a lot of clergy that are chaffing against what I will characterize as the silliness of the Catholic bishops—with the world falling down around us and people being crushed to death by Wall Street the big thing in the Catholic Church right now is the arrival of a new missal for the mass.  The Church is very “cautious,” just as this pastor is in the Trinity Church segment—what a stark contrast to Chris Hedges.  Timid, mealy-mouthed tripe!

To the degree that churches are businesses, they are not free, but instead turn part of their effort away from matters of spirit and place it in the realm of
financial profit-and-loss. The teachings of Jesus (as they have come down to us) are more “purist” than most churches can “afford” if they wish to maintain “facilities.”  Jesus was not much interested in “facilities” and in churches as “busineses.” In a very real sense, Trinity and all others, when it comes to serious questions like this, are trying (as do we all!) to have their cake and eat it, too. Through such struggles their failures become clear—but not necessarily justifiable.

“Give all that thou hast ...”  All.  Not some.  Not what is convenient. Jesus was a Radical, and ever since He died, we have been trying to turn Him into a Conservative.