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Truthdig Radio: Dennis Kucinich Battles Libya Bombing

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Posted on Mar 24, 2011
Photo illustration from an image by Colin Grey

On this week’s episode, Rep. Dennis Kucinich explains why he’s trying to defund military action in Libya, Ryan Quinn talks about his new novel, Howie Stier reports from the anti-war movement and Robert Scheer remembers Elizabeth Taylor.

Click to listen to the show, or continue reading the full transcript below.


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Full Transcript:

Peter Scheer: This is Truthdig Radio, a new weekly show featuring the best in news, interviews and commentary from Truthdig and KPFK. I’m Peter Scheer. On the show today, Ryan Quinn, an all-American athlete who came out in the not-so-gay-friendly state of Utah and was inspired by his experience to write a novel. Howie Stier reports from the front lines of the anti-war movement, and Robert Scheer remembers Elizabeth Taylor. But first, we spoke just moments ago with Congressman Dennis Kucinich, who is working to defund America’s military action in Libya, which he says is unconstitutional.

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Robert Scheer: Dennis, you got three Scheers here. ... [Laughter] You got Josh, Peter and me, so…

Dennis Kucinich: Oh, my God.

Robert Scheer:… so full court, full court press, you know. So Josh, you’re the one that set this up. What’s your big question?

Josh Scheer: My big question is, what’s going on with your bill to defund Libya?

Dennis Kucinich: I’m actively seeking support. There are so many members out of town and out of their districts, and around the country and around the world, that we can’t … it’s tough to get ahold of people right now. But after we first announced it I had Ron Paul, Walter Jones and Pete Stark all sign on quickly. And I suspect that we’ll have many co-sponsors before we begin work of the House when we come back in a week.

Robert Scheer: Do you have the wording right there, Dennis? Could you read it for us?

Dennis Kucinich: It’s simply this. It says that the … that none of the funds expended under this act shall be used for the … for intervening … for military intervention in Libya.

Robert Scheer: That’s great! And how come you got Ron Paul, you were able to get Ron Paul to sign off on that?

Dennis Kucinich: Ron and I work together.

Robert Scheer: Really.

Dennis Kucinich: As do Walter Jones and I, and Pete Stark supported our effort to limit …

Robert Scheer: Pete Stark’s a California congressman.

Dennis Kucinich: … to end the war in Afghanistan as well. So, you know, I would think that we should be able to get many of the people who voted to get out of Afghanistan a week ago on this bill to stop funding.

Josh Scheer: Is the fear that there’s no exit strategy and no …

Dennis Kucinich: There isn’t any exit strategy. There was only an entrance strategy. That’s a concern in Congress, and apparently it’s a concern of some people in the Department of Defense as well.

Josh Scheer: And I was going to ask about … because I mean, this is also that there’s a kind of unfair balance, because we already are obviously stuck in Afghanistan and Iraq, and then we haven’t gone after other regional countries that have far worse leaders, like Saudi Arabia or Yemen.

Dennis Kucinich: Well, when we … if we start to create a new engine for intervention, we’ll destroy our country. Because we don’t have the ability to finance endless wars. Our military is already stretched thin. Our domestic agenda is being shredded. The penchant for military intervention is very dangerous. And the moment that we’re in right now in Libya is a chaotic strategy, intervening in a chaotic place, and the only thing that’s going to come out of it is more chaos.

Robert Scheer: You know, Dennis, it occurs to me … this is Bob … it occurs to me that there’s something really cynical at work here. You know, you’re not going to commit troops; you’re not going to occupy a place. You’re going to use your high technology … and this is something the military-industrial complex has always wanted, because if you have to put in troops, you have casualties, you have the consequence. If you can just bomb from up high, if you can just send in drone missiles, if you can have a no-fly zone in which, then, you are the only ones who can rain death down on people, you have kind of this comic book or video war that the American public might go … buy off on, might accept. And at the same time it uses up ordinance and it provides a justification for building new high-tech weapons.

Dennis Kucinich: Well, you’re right about the fact that the more ordinance we use, the more high-tech weapons we’ll end up buying. The cost of this war, according to an analysis that just came in that I saw this morning, said that by the time we’re out of it, if it is, quote, limited, unquote, it could still cost about a billion dollars. Specifically, to replace the more than 100 Tomahawk missiles, replace the 2,000-pound bombs that have been used, the cost of fuel, the cost of keeping planes in the air. So … there’s another aspect to this, though. It’s really the height of irresponsibility to wage these remote wars, where you actually don’t have to even look at people anymore. It actually … actually, war, the character of wars have changed so dramatically with changes in technology, that you could bomb someone thousands of miles away without ever having to look them in the eye, without ever having to know anything about them. You can bomb their neighbor and call it collateral damage. We have to understand that as the world’s gone faster and technology’s speeded up and given us these capabilities, it’s actually enabled a derationalization and a dehumanization of those who are doing the attacking.

Peter Scheer: Congressman, this is Peter. Would you have opposed this funding if the president had come to Congress and kept a price cap on the spending?

Dennis Kucinich: I would oppose any intervention in Libya whatsoever.

Peter Scheer: So what do you … how do you react to the humanitarian claims of the people supporting this intervention?

Dennis Kucinich: I think Noam Chomsky, in his book about humanitarian war, really captured the essence of it. We actually go into these situations with … there are Western colonial interests that have been longstanding. There’s the opposition who we really don’t know how to characterize in Libya; there’s this, looming in the background, this concern about the primacy of Libya’s oil. You know, when you look at all these things, it paints a picture which is quite murky for interventionism. And if you want to dress it up in humanitarian purposes, once you open up the intervention and you get into it deeply, it may not look very humanitarian at all. You may actually end up killing more people than Gadhafi himself is capable of.

Josh Scheer: I was going to say, Bush also got approval from Congress for Iraq with lies and half-truths; I mean, you can get approval, I think, right … your point would be that we don’t want to get into another quagmire.

Dennis Kucinich: Right.

Peter Scheer: But you specifically objected to the president not coming to Congress on this action. Isn’t that true?

Dennis Kucinich: Well, that’s absolutely right. And I have for my … I have additional support for that view, including a quote that is, quote, the president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation, unquote. And that was then-Sen. Barack Obama in an interview with the Boston Globe on December 20th, 2007. I opposed the president taking action without consulting with Congress. Had he consulted with Congress, I would have voted against it. That’s not to say the resolution could not have passed. But the fact that he didn’t consult with Congress is, I think, a breach of his constitutional obligations.

Josh Scheer: I was going to say that we’re going to put that on Truthdig, the interview with the Boston Globe—we found it today. And then another question is, though, I know that was one of his promises, and he’s broken a lot of his promises. But he does promise to hand over control; he says that Libyans have to decide their own fate; you know, he’s said all the right things. That this will be … you know, this is not just the U.S., this is an international coalition. But do you think those are just political promises, or do you think …

Dennis Kucinich: Well, I … look.  Let’s go to … just a few days ago. The Arab League was in partnership. Well, there appears to be some changes there, because they’re backing away, saying that they didn’t know, that they didn’t want civilians to be hurt. And there seems to have been some settling on NATO taking control, but who’s NATO? I mean, who drives NATO? The U.S.

Peter Scheer: Also, France and Germany have indicated that they don’t, they might vote against a leadership position.

Dennis Kucinich: Well taken. And so there’s still disagreement, and the element of chaos, which war embodies, is touching all those who are promoting it.

Robert Scheer: Let me ask you, Dennis. It seems to me that this idea that you and Ron Paul and the others you mentioned could agree on a resolution is very promising for American politics. That it cuts through the left-right division; it shows a certain consistency on the part of at least the libertarian conservatives about challenging imperial adventures. Aren’t you impressed that this could happen?

Dennis Kucinich: Well, you have to remember that Ron Paul and I have been standing side by side, really unnoticed, for years in opposing the interventions and wars in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and in Libya, and opposing any strike at Iran. So for Ron Paul and I, this is not new. Walter Jones has been a passionate defender of the Constitution, but also has been very courageous in his pointing out what the wars have done to our military. And he took it upon himself to write letters of condolence to every family who lost a son or a daughter in the war in Iraq, because he was so struck with grief over that, over the war, and over his vote. There are people who love this country and who are ready to take a stand without regard to the politics of the moment, whether there’s a Democrat or Republican occupying the White House.

Robert Scheer: You know, Dennis, the thing that bothers me about this whole thing is the sort of faux-humanitarian thing on the part of some neoliberals. And they used this argument for justifying getting into Iraq; they’re using it once again. And it’s hypocritical. First of all, they don’t apply it to Saudi Arabia; they don’t apply it to, you know, the Saudis sending troops into Bahrain; they don’t apply it to what’s happening in Yemen. So it’s a totally inconsistent view of picking targets. I mean, Gadhafi is reprehensible; he is hardly the worst in the region … and also we’ve learned that some of these people, like Joseph Nye from Harvard, and the guy who’s head of the London School of Economics, are actually taking money from Libya and cooperating with Gadhafi, as was George W. Bush, as was Tony Blair. So are you going to call attention to that kind of hypocrisy?

Dennis Kucinich: Absolutely. I mean, anytime you see a war, you’re bound to find inconsistencies, hypocrisies, and people making money off of their positions. The thing that hasn’t really been pointed out, I don’t think, effectively, is that The Washington Post on the day of—or within about 24 hours after we intervened—The Washington Post wrote a story about how the war was pretty much already over. And that the regime had won. And so there’s a question about, did we intervene after the tide had turned towards Tripoli, which means that this is really about regime change. And when you’re looking at regime change, it’s never about quote, democratic ideals, unquote.

 


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Angel Gabriel's avatar

By Angel Gabriel, March 28, 2011 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

Gulam

I have been watching this “death Rattle” for decades and every time I think that
it is finally starting to collapse from the inside out it miraculously revives itself,
but in saying that it has hinged around new War’s that the US has gotten itself
involved in, or have created to serve the purpose of an excuse to name and
blame a new enemy of the American people that has worked to unite those flag
waving loyalists in a common purpose - Kill the oppostion to American
Dominance then pick the spot most ripe to plunder where the resources or
business opportunity for the IMF/Wall Street elitist brigade can “regime change”
their way into the economic drivers seat.  This entire new wave of
Corporatocracy started in earnest with the signing of PNAC.
The Corporatocracy has been very slick in the manner that they have
conscripted the US and Israeli Military’s to fight these Corporate Battles! the
slickest part of it has been that through Mainstream media assistance, they rally
the US Tax Payer dollar to pay for these assaults on unfriendly regimes to US
and Israeli Interests, then quietly play out their strategies to break the Civilian
Populations in those country’s “will” to resist.
I do agree with you as to the most effective method to use to bring on their
demise is by patience and persistence. Alone i can do nothing more than
scream at a website, but united with like minds around the world we can,
though our united resolve, back away from them and let them destroy
themselves from within, as they are doing quite nicely on their own currently.
Not much word coming out of Israel at the moment when topics like double
standards are brought into focus… One might think there could be a good
business opportunity in Israel as a Laundry Service, though it would be a
disgusting job cleaning all the undershorts as they fill up with the events
happening all around them that are moving their enemies closer to tossing out
the old Zionist friendly despots put into power to serve US and Israeli interests
and replacing them with Representatives of the People’s will rather than the old
guards!
I’m with you and we will continue our vigilance in peace. Watch and wait - the
time will come quickly when it does come!

Report this
Gulam's avatar

By Gulam, March 28, 2011 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Angel Gabriel you are almost there. I agree completely and appreciate your turn
of phrase: “I’m finished with any support for Kucinich, or anyone else who
poses distractions without actions….” Yes, you do see how guys like Kucinich
and Bernie Sanders are paid well to play the role of loyal opposition. Most of the
time everybody is convinced that there really is a viable opposition, however,
every time it counts the “loyal” part rears its head. How did anyone ever take
the Democratic Party seriously after Lyndon and Hubert and all that they did?

Going all the way involves realizing that the whole democratic premise is
downright silly. Believing this Enlightenment faith means believing that Moses
should have come down off the mountain and taken a vote on what kind of
morals the community should follow. What a little play-acting stunt this whole
democracy sideshow has become, what a distraction it is now, while a very
small upper class takes even more advantage of the great herd than ever did an
official aristocracy.  When you finally get the picture, then you will join the rest
who have stepped back to watch the fall, for what can you do to better help the
poor of this earth and the environment, what more can you do to stop
militarism, the arms race, and nuclear madness than to step aside and watch
the USA crash.

According to classical Chinese thought, at a time when The Way is not being
followed by the state, the superior man hides himself so that nobody notices
him. Evil falls by itself; under most circumstances it is better to wait an
opportunity to serve the good. After the Vietnam War, the people from the
anti-war movement, whose case had been thoroughly vindicated, were not
praised and welcomed back into the fold. Those of that huge baby-boom
generation who cared about the society as a whole and not their own careers,
those who saw the truth and spoke out, they were systematically kept out of
the main corridors of power in America, and they kept themselves out of the
CIA and the military? Ask yourself what kind of person would have worked for
the CIA after the Vietnam era, after all pretence of being “one of the good guys”
was long gone?

The task now is for a new generation to drop-out from the public trough, the
money making society, to work alone out of the way in small ways to find and
preserve and continue what has been achieved out of the limelight by the
previous generation. At this point public life is poisoned, nobody with any
dignity would willingly become a public figure in America, arts and letters of the
official post-modern empire of the media are a cruel joke to anyone with any
taste and vision.  Though home life has also been badly weakened, home and
community are places where energy can be well used while we wait for this
self-enlightened secular Empire to continue its death rattle.

You said that you were tired of distractions without actions. At this point in
time almost any action that an American politician can take would be little but a
distraction. When there has been far too much doing, not-doing likely to be a
more positive move than more doing.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, March 28, 2011 at 5:20 am Link to this comment

“MI6 Created the Muslim Brotherhood - e.g.”

Israel created Hamas.

CIA created Al Qaeda.

Pattern here?

Report this
fearnotruth's avatar

By fearnotruth, March 28, 2011 at 12:52 am Link to this comment

RE: ...God created the islamic brotherhood. (sic)

MI6 Created the Muslim Brotherhood - e.g.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=muslim_brotherhood

Muslim Brotherhood was a participant or observer in the following events:
1954-1970: CIA and the Muslim Brotherhood Ally to Oppose Egyptian President Nasser

In 1954, Egyptian President Gamal Abddul Nasser’s nationalist policies in Egypt come to
be viewed as completely unacceptable by Britain and the US. MI6 and the CIA jointly hatch
plans for his assassination. According to Miles Copeland, a CIA operative based in Egypt,
the opposition to Nasser is driven by the commercial community—the oil companies and
the banks.

At the same time, the Muslim Brotherhood’s resentment of Nasser’s secular government
also comes to a head. In one incident, Islamist militants attack pro-Nasser students at
Cairo University. Following an attempt on his own life by the Brotherhood, Nasser
responds immediately by outlawing the group, which he denounces as a tool of Britain.
The following years see a long and complex struggle pitting Nasser against the Muslim
Brotherhood, the US, and Britain.

The CIA funnels support to the Muslim Brotherhood because of “the Brotherhood’s
commendable capability to overthrow Nasser.” [BAER, 2003, PP. 99; DREYFUSS, 2005, PP.
101-108] The Islamist regime in Saudi Arabia becomes an ally of the United States in the
conflict with Nasser. They offer financial backing and sanctuary to Muslim Brotherhood
militants during Nasser’s crackdown. Nasser dies of natural causes in 1970.

[DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 90-91, 126-131, 150]
Entity Tags: UK Secret Intelligence Service (MI6), Saudi Arabia, Central Intelligence Agency,
Gamal Abddul Nasser, Muslim Brotherhood
Timeline Tags: Alleged Use of False Flag Attacks

Report this
Angel Gabriel's avatar

By Angel Gabriel, March 27, 2011 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

All this while Israel continues the ethnic cleansing right under the apathetically compliant noses of the
American Tax payer!  All the while sending the tax dollars to Israel and the War suppliers to
continue this abominable policy of arming Zionist aggressors for the protection of US interests!.
I’m finished with any support for Kucinich, or anyone else who poses distractions
without actions to stop the Carnage in the Country’s the US moves to prop-up in it’s
supposed “interest”  while it goes after the ones that don’t play along with the game!
You know, the game which by now obviously means the pillaging of resources,
selling off State assets to IMF/Wall Street Elitist investors and then selling them new
infrastructure to replace the infrastructure destroyed in their
attempts to overthrow un-friendly regimes in their game of Global Monopoly.
I suppose it’s going to take Hotels & MacDonalds on every intersection flying
American and Israeli flags on every square on the Game Board before the world
can once again descend into peace… The price you pay for NWO Corporatist Capitalism eh???
Piss off Dennis and the rest of the distraction artists you work with - Your era is rapidly coming to an end and you will not be able to stop it with your liberal and Conservative accomplices!

Report this
RichZubaty's avatar

By RichZubaty, March 26, 2011 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

“wait till the IMF, World Bank and attendant Carpet Bagger financiers get their shops set up for wholesale asset stripping”

My my such an optimist. Mabye that’s why God created the islamic brotherhood.

Report this
fearnotruth's avatar

By fearnotruth, March 26, 2011 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

RE:THIS is the kind of image America needs around the world. Not propping up
dictators. Tilling the soil for Democracy. It may not work this time. But it sure is
worth trying. Nothing else we do works.

looks good on paper… wait till the IMF, World Bank and attendant Carpet Bagger
financiers get their shops set up for wholesale asset stripping

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, March 26, 2011 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Dennis Kucinich

I used to respect him. He no longer has any credibility.

After his “airplane ride” and change of “heart” on health care.

Not to mention that he just stated that

“While Obama has done Impeachable actions, he should not be Impeached.”

Dennis’s job is to keep the “left” in line with words.

While his actions show otherwise.

Report this
RichZubaty's avatar

By RichZubaty, March 26, 2011 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Dennis efforts to capture the FED into the Treasury Department are amazing. Bravo! Yes, our government can print its own money and issue it for worthy projects like rebuilding infrastructure without have to borrow it, with interest, from the FED. Simple common sense.

Report this
RichZubaty's avatar

By RichZubaty, March 26, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

Dennis Kucinich is my hero. I volunteered for his presidential bids. But he is wrong and Obama was right to intervene in Libya. This situation is so new – real coalition partners lined up against a real murderous tyrant – that the Left doesn’t know what to make of it. To do nothing was to approve murder and approve war. To intervene was to stop murder and stop war. To do nothing was to let a murderous tyrant who sells us oil go about with business as usual. To intervene means to till the soil to allow a garden for democracy to grow, and possibly risk electing some guys who don’t like us. But already opposition leader Dr. Abdulmonem Hresha of the Islamic Brotherhood, supposedly our enemy, has said he will never forget what France, England and the USA did to free his country. THIS is the kind of image America needs around the world. Not propping up dictators. Tilling the soil for Democracy. It may not work this time. But it sure is worth trying. Nothing else we do works.

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fearnotruth's avatar

By fearnotruth, March 26, 2011 at 2:36 am Link to this comment

RE: I’m glad there is still someone in Washington with the lights on.

let’s pray no plan advances to put out those lights - Wellstoned, as it were -
nothing is off the table around which convenes the Global Finance Oligarchy

Report this

By chip, March 26, 2011 at 1:18 am Link to this comment

Hey Dennis
Don’t you remember? The Libyans were the people that shot “Doc” in “Back To The Future”.

Seriously though, How about a Kucinich/Paul or Paul/Kucinich ticket in 2012? 

If not, Kansas City would welcome you.
Dennis Moore’s wife lost over in Johnson Co, Ks.
And Emanuel Cleaver is a good guy but some mild drain bamage is apparent.

I voted for Ron Paul in the primary 2008 after the democrats shut you out of the debate.
I believe I would have stuck with him in Nov.

Thank You Dennis, I still wonder what Obama did to you on “air force one”? But I’m very glad to see the old Kucinich is back.   

Oh yeah we also got a contaminated Nuke Bomb plant here run by “Honeywell”. Our city council just voted to build them a new plant with 700 million in city bonds, six miles to the south, in a soybean field that they deemed “A Blighted Area”.
Of coarse this happened with very little media coverage.

I think we are the only city to own a Nuclear Bomb Plant.

Anyone who wants to buy a used, contaminated, nuke bomb plant can Google “Kansas City Plant” or “Bannister Federal Complex”.

Report this

By Jack, March 25, 2011 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think it will be a great benefit to the world when the American economy finally bottoms out and we can finally end the blood for oil wars. Kucinich is right and once you attack a country because the side you chose is losing the war it becomes regime change regardless of how you try and dress it up with the word humanitarian.

Report this
Gulam's avatar

By Gulam, March 25, 2011 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

The great thing about just letting economics take its course, watching the dollar go
down rapidly and even egging it along, is that it can gut that obscenely overgrown
military machine without blasting it out through war. Absolute power always has
the same effect, and the Americans are not uniquely to blame. In some ways their
rule was beneficent, like that of Duryodhana in the Mahabharata. That great Hindu
epic has a lot to say about the present situation in the world. Would it not be a
very great blessing indeed if this exaggerated gathering of weaponry and power
could be deactivated by economic collapse without putting the world through yet
another series of destructive epic battles and vast civilian death?

Report this
Gulam's avatar

By Gulam, March 25, 2011 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

While I admire Dennis Kucinich,  at the same time I see him as the problem. While
he is doing his damnedest to save America from itself, and making a more gallant
effort than most, would it not be the best thing for the poor of this world and for
the environment of all of the creatures of this earth if the US crashed totally right
now? What other steps than collapsing their government can Americans possibly
do that would so rapidly cut down on environmental damage, halve the production
of weapons on the planet, slow the nuclear and bioengineering madness, and stop
the constant bombing of poor people? Crashing the US economy and ultimately
strangling their military machine is the big one. Nothing else human beings on
this planet can do right now will have anything like the profound, positive impact
of simply trashing the dollar and the Zionists that control it.

Report this

By NYCartist, March 25, 2011 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

Transcript is much appreciated.  Thank you.  I am pleased to read that Kucinich is quoting Chomsky on empire and “humanitarian” wars.  I gave up on Kucinich when he said he would support “my President” last year on an issue I no longer remember.  He lost credibility with me.

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By SteveL, March 24, 2011 at 11:22 pm Link to this comment

House Speaker John A. Boehner (R - OH) has repeatedly said the U.S. is broke.  Some how we have plenty of money to start yet another war.  Despite North Korea doing all the things we only accuse the Arab nations of doing we never seem to want to invade North Korea.  Oh well no oil, no ore, no war.

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By Flapdoodle, March 24, 2011 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey ML, peddle your snakeoil elsewhere. 

War is war, bombing is bombing.  There is no compelling case that the US bombing the Libyans will do sufficent good to merit murdering people and wasting US resources, and shiploads of reasons to be skeptical of anything military adventure the US proposes. 

You want to help the freedom fighters?  Go there and join up.  Otherwise, zip it.

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, March 24, 2011 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

I’m glad there is still someone in Washington with the lights on.

Report this

By M L, March 24, 2011 at 9:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Freedom fighters are a ragtag group of guys fighting with heart and courage but not sufficent weapons/resources. My heart went out to the freedom fighter carrying a plastic gun. Our US military should step up and help these men. In the past two wars ( Iraq & Afganistan) our U.S military took lives and now is the time to start saving lives. Instead of being feared for our military prowess, we should be respected for our dedication to human rights and human life. These middle eastern countries now have an opportunity to establish a new government and write a constitution. We must remember that only a few men (our founding fathers)established the United States of America,  wrote our Constitution ( laws of the land), the Declaration of independence (from the oppression of Great Britain)  and Bill of Rights (limiting government) Egypt, with so many young intelligent people can set an example and lead the way for the other countries fighting for freedom and democracy.

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