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‘Three Myths’ of Israeli History

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Posted on Jun 7, 2011

Miko Peled, peace activist and son of a well-known Israeli general, talks about his new book, “The General’s Son,” and what he calls the “three myths” of Israeli history.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, June 12, 2011 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Robert,

You are following racist and hate-filled garbage.

On this very day, according to the Palestinian Tourism Ministry, the Dome of the Rock, the Al Aqsa Mosque, Haram al-Sharif and the Western Wall are all open to the public from around the globe.

Now revisit what I wrote previously regarding Jewish Holy Sites under Jordanian occupation.

-

Believe when I write that I understand nothing I share here will have an effect on you.  You hold far too much hatred.

There remains another side to your narrative, however, and it must be told.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, June 12, 2011 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, June 12 at 6:31 am

“Russian Paul,

Feel free to check my facts here. Notice not a single link to a media site outlining any individual’s opinion(s).

When Israel controls Jerusalem all Holy Sites are open to the entire world.  Not so when these same Holy Sites were controlled by either Egypt or Jordan.

~~~~~~~~~

GRYM,...your so called research & boasting are headed toward a steep cliff!!! Your deceptive zionist propaganda/hasbara is NOT sticking & its going to be flushed down the commode by the TD posters….

~~~~~~


A moment of truth:
A word of faith, hope and love from the heart of Palestinian suffering


“1.1.5 Religious liberty is severely restricted; the freedom of access to the holy places is denied under the pretext of security. Jerusalem and its holy places are out of bounds for many Christians and Muslims from the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Even Jerusalemites face restrictions during the religious feasts. Some of our Arab clergy are regularly barred from entering Jerusalem .”


~~~~~~

BTW….NO RESTRICTIONS ON JEWS LIVING IN “FOR JEWS ONLY SETTLEMENTS” IN THE WEST-BANK/OCCUPIED TERRITORIES !!!

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/moment-truth.html

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By Go Right Young Man, June 12, 2011 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

size=5]Jordan[/size]

History

The land that became Jordan is part of the richly historical Fertile Crescent region. Its history began around 2000 B.C., when Semitic Amorites settled around the Jordan River in the area called Canaan. Subsequent invaders and settlers included Hittites, Egyptians, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arab Muslims, Christian Crusaders, Mameluks, Ottoman Turks, and, finally, the British.

At the end of World War I, the territory now comprising Israel, Jordan, the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem was awarded to the United Kingdom by the League of Nations as the mandate for Palestine and Transjordan. In 1922, the British divided the mandate by establishing the semiautonomous Emirate of Transjordan, ruled by the Hashemite Prince Abdullah, while continuing the administration of Palestine under a British High Commissioner. The mandate over Transjordan ended on May 22, 1946; on May 25, the country became the independent Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan. It continued to have a special defense treaty relationship with the United Kingdom until 1957, when the treaty was dissolved by mutual consent. The British mandate over Palestine ended on May 14, 1948, and the State of Israel was proclaimed. Neighboring Arab states, including Transjordan, moved to assist Palestinian nationalists opposed to this development, resulting in open warfare between the Arab states and the newly founded State of Israel. The armistice agreements of April 3, 1949, established armistice demarcation lines between Jordan and Israel, leaving Jordan in control of the West Bank. The agreements expressly provided that the armistice demarcation lines were without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines.

In 1950, the country was renamed the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to include those portions of Palestine annexed by King Abdullah. Jordan established three governorates on the West Bank: Nablus, al-Quds (Jerusalem), and al-Khalil. While recognizing Jordanian administration over the West Bank, the United States maintained the position that ultimate sovereignty was subject to future agreement.

Jordan signed a mutual defense pact in May 1967 with Egypt, and it participated in the June 1967 war between Israel and the Arab states of Syria, Egypt, and Iraq. After repelling the Arab attack, Israel extended its control to the Jordan River, including Jordanian-controlled eastern Jerusalem. In 1988, Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank but retained an administrative role pending a final settlement on the West Bank. The U.S. Government considers the West Bank to be territory occupied by Israel and believes that its final status should be determined through direct negotiations among the parties concerned on the basis of UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 12, 2011 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

Jordan

HISTORY

The 1967 war led to a dramatic increase in the number of Palestinians living in Jordan. Its Palestinian refugee population—700,000 in 1966—grew by another 300,000 from the West Bank. The period following the 1967 war saw an upsurge in the power and importance of Palestinian resistance elements (fedayeen) in Jordan. Differing with the Jordanian Government’s policies, the heavily armed fedayeen constituted a growing threat to the sovereignty and security of the Hashemite state. Tensions between the government and the fedayeen increased until open fighting erupted in June 1970.

Other Arab governments attempted to work out a peaceful solution, but by September, continuing fedayeen actions in Jordan—including the destruction of three international airliners hijacked and held in the desert east of Amman—prompted the government to take action to regain control over its territory and population. In the ensuing heavy fighting, a Syrian tank force (camouflaged as a Palestinian force) initially took up positions in northern Jordan to support the fedayeen. By September 22, Arab foreign ministers meeting at Cairo had arranged a cease-fire beginning the following day. Sporadic violence continued, however, until Jordanian forces won a decisive victory over the fedayeen in July 1971, expelling them from the country. Since then, the fedayeen have not presented a threat to the Jordanian Government.

No fighting occurred along the 1967 Jordan River cease-fire line during the October 1973 Arab-Israeli war, but Jordan sent a brigade to Syria to fight Israeli units on Syrian territory. Jordan did not participate in the Gulf war of 1990-91. Except for a period of border tension with Syria in 1980, it has been at de facto peace with all its neighbors. In 1991, Jordan agreed, along with Syria, Lebanon, and Palestinian representatives, to participate in direct peace negotiations with Israel sponsored by the U.S. and Russia.

source: U.S. State Department Background Notes 1995

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By Go Right Young Man, June 12, 2011 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Russian Paul,

Feel free to check my facts here. Notice not a single link to a media site outlining any individual’s opinion(s).

When Israel controls Jerusalem all Holy Sites are open to the entire world.  Not so when these same Holy Sites were controlled by either Egypt or Jordan.

-

U.N. General Assembly
A/RES/181(II)
29 November 1947

Chapter 1

Holy Places, religious buildings and sites

1. Existing rights in respect of Holy Places and religious buildings or sites shall not be denied or impaired.

2. In so far as Holy Places are concerned, the liberty of access, visit and transit shall be guaranteed, in conformity with existing rights, to all residents and citizens of the other State and of the City of Jerusalem, as well as to aliens, without distinction as to nationality, subject to requirements of national security, public order and decorum.

Similarly, freedom of worship shall be guaranteed in conformity with existing rights, subject to the maintenance of public order and decorum.

3. Holy Places and religious buildings or sites shall be preserved. No act shall be permitted which may in any way impair their sacred character. If at any time it appears to the Government that any particular Holy Place, religious building or site is in need of urgent repair, the Government may call upon the community or communities concerned to carry out such repair. The Government may carry it out itself at the expense of the community or communities concerned if no action is taken within a reasonable time.

4. No taxation shall be levied in respect of any Holy Place, religious building or site which was exempt from taxation on the date of the creation of the State.

5. The Governor of the City of Jerusalem shall have the right to determine whether the provisions of the Constitution of the State in relation to Holy Places, religious buildings and sites within the borders of the State and the religious rights appertaining thereto, are being properly applied and respected, and to make decisions on the basis of existing rights in cases of disputes which may arise between the different religious communities or the rites of a religious community with respect to such places, buildings and sites. He shall receive full co-operation and such privileges and immunities as are necessary for the exercise of his functions in the State.

-

Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan

A Special Committee was to be formed to make arrangements for safe movement of traffic between Jerusalem and Mount Scopus campus of Hebrew University, along the Latrun-Jerusalem Highway, free access to the Holy Places, and other matters. The committee was never formed, and access to the Holy Places was denied to Israelis throughout the Jordanian occupation.

The remainder of the area that had been designated as Arab under the partition plan was partly occupied by Egypt (the Gaza Strip), partly occupied and annexed by Israel (West Negev, West Galilee, Jaffa). The intended international enclave of Jerusalem was divided between Israel and Jordan, both eventually annexing their portions.

The Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of East Jerusalem. All but one of the 35 synagogues in the Old City were destroyed over the course of the next 19 years, either razed or used as stables and hen-houses. Many other historic and religiously significant buildings were replaced by modern structures.[7] The ancient Jewish cemetery on Mount of Olives was desecrated, and the tombstones there were used for construction, paving roads and lining latrines; the highway to the Intercontinental Hotel was built on top of the site.

-

You are being mislead, Paul. Mislead by racists.

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By Shingo, June 12, 2011 at 5:46 am Link to this comment

>>  I have been unable to locate a single factual premise in Robert’s posts. Apparently you have had the same experience.

Really?  So you are denying that Israel is the only “state in Mid-East” that “has massive & undeclared Nuclear Weapons, stockpiles of chemical weapons & other WMD….”?

We are look forward to your evidence that refutes this fact. But seeing as you’re allergic to links and Robert is not, we’ll just assume that you’re a pathrtic liar.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, June 12, 2011 at 5:28 am Link to this comment

Russian Paul, - “they put forward their
opinions and then back it up with facts.”

-

I have been unable to locate a single factual premise in Robert’s posts. Apparently you have had the same experience.

Interesting.  As long as one can provide dozens of links to similar opinions those opinions become factual.

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By Robert, June 11, 2011 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

Russian Paul...many thanks for your kind words. I try to do my best to post the facts/truth regarding the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

For too long the zionist controlled news media have had a monopoly on what to put out for the American public to hear, and to this day it still continues. Its been mostly a one way street…Pro-Israel/Zionism’s perspectives.

TD is an excellent place where information is posted on various topics and readers tend to read, research, verify links/information & they can be the judge at the end of that process.

I am happy/satisfied if one person reads what I post…clicks on the links that I provide & research further til the end of their route. My goal(s) is/are to post facts with links.

I can tell you that more & more Americans are reading from the internet/forums/links…etc…and they are getting their eyes open to information that they never had a chance to see & research. For Israel & its zionist propagandists…keep that shovel going by splashing deceptive lies, anti-semitism & use the holocaust.

——-

GRYM…the Palestinian problem is NOT the responsibility of the rich neighboring Arab states. They did NOT cause their refugee problem. Israel & its zionist terrorists who massacred thousands of Palestinian women, children, men and drove them out to the neighboring countries.

If a bunch of armed thugs came into your house and murdered most of your family members, then drove you out at gun point and forced you to get out of town for your safety…and as you were in a hurry leaving…you hear those thugs telling you… go to that rich Jewish neighborhood/city in another state…they should take care of you. They are rich…you have nothing here & you are not allowed to come back.

Would leave & forget what happened to your family, your home, your land…and to top it all, those thugs are denying all that happened to you & your family. They had nothing to do with it!!!

That is what happened to the Palestinians & its been a “nightmare/holocaust” for them on a daily basis.

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By Russian Paul, June 11, 2011 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

GRYM - you originally asked me “...would you be able to direct me toward one
link shared by Robert that was anything but another example of an opinion in
support of his own?”

it was a disingenuous question. of course any links posted by shingo, robert or
others support their opinion. that’s how adults debate. they put forward their
opinions and then back it up with facts. the question isn’t if Robert’s links
support his opinion, but whither or not they are factually accurate. i then asked
YOU, if you take issue with any of these links, to provide evidence of any factual
incorrectness.

Let me try asking another way. Which link lead you to a set of verifiable facts?

and now you’re trying to get me to do your work for you. you’re a big boy. if
you have any qualms about the verifiability of any of their “sources” it’s on YOU
to at least list which ones you believe to be inaccurate.

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brewerstroupe's avatar

By brewerstroupe, June 11, 2011 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

“walking the streets of Tehran and Damascus wearing a yarmulke?”
Its possible. But just as I wouldn’t walk through parts of East Jerusalem wearing a kaffyeh, it might not be polite.

“On many Saturday mornings, a visitor can find as many as a dozen people praying at the lone synagogue under the protection of police security. And when Amin Halwani, a 53-year-old tailor, left a recent service with his skullcap still atop his head, a police officer reminded him to take it off to avoid attracting attention on the streets. Thirty years ago, life was difficult. If the police walked by our house, we trembled. That’s why people left,” recalled 70-year-ol­d Rachel Cameo, Albert’s sister. “Now, they are here to protect us. Everything is easier.”

In a recent e-mail message, Imad Moustapha, Syrian ambassador to the United States, told The Chronicle that “all properties owned by Syrian Jews have been left untouched for when they choose to visit or return.”
http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-06-28/news/17209421_1_syrian-jews-jewish-syrians-wave-of-jewish-emigration

N.B. Israelis are forbidden by their Government to visit Syria.

Syrian President Bashar Assad has approved the renovation of 11 synagogues across the country.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4025681,00.html

“For us, of course, he (Asad Snr) was like the Messiah,” Hasbani said. Before him “you could not walk for four kilometers [without permission]. You could not buy and sell [property]. Walking in the street, you were afraid to say I am a Jew. There were [Jewish] schools. But there was someone from the government sitting on your head, and capable of doing whatever he wanted.”

Asad, Hasbani said, was different from past Syrian leaders in that he was the first president to truly pay attention to the concerns of Syria’s Jews.

http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/2005/10/jews-of-syria-by-robert-tuttle.htm

Syria invites Israeli rabbi to visit Damascus

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=218586&R=R3

As for Iran, there are 30,000 Jews who have refused financial incentives to emigrate to Israel.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

What a fitting image that was - Israel standing shoulder to shoulder with Saudi Arabia - the most vile dictatorhsip in the whole region – in support of anoehr vile and brutal disctator.

>> In any case, it is more than time that the American and British anti-semites focus on the genuine war crimes and human rights abuses begin perpetuated by their own countries, which are infinitely worse than anything that Israel has done
I call that the Charled Manson defense.  “Look your honor, there are mass murderers out there that killed more peopel than I did, so cut me some slack and let me go”.

>> Regardless, Israel has won the war, and is able to defend itself.

Much more than that, Israel is militarily superiori to any state in the region and has nukes. The problem for Israelis not the eternal therat but the internal friction that is bubbling to the surface, along with the fear of large scale unarmed demonstartions.

It pains me to say it, but Israel’s days are numbered.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

mike,

It’s not surprise that you agree with GRYM, seeing as you are every bit as deluded and ignorant as him.

Attacks on on Jews (as a colective)  are clearly anti-semitism, but attacks on Israel are not. What is astonishing is that you do not know the difference.  The fact is that anti Semitism is now insignificant and marginal - so much so in fact, that Yale University recently decided to terminate the Yale Institute for the Interdisciplinary Study of Anti-Semitism, due to lack of interest. Even the ever vigilant ADL concede reluctantly that anti Semitism is practially non existent.

>> The Arab war on Jews (again, disguised as war on Israel) did not begin in 1967, but decades before, and in fact predates by some decades the formal rebirth of Israel in 1948.

On the contrary.

The 1967 war had nothing to do with 1948, other than being the next installment of Israel’s agenda to seize more territory as Ben Gurion had stated in 1937.  There were no violent attacks against Jews in Palestine during the 19th century, aside from common criminal violence. 

You seem uanware of the fact that the Arab armies only invaded Palestine (not Israel) 5 months after Israel had expelled 300,000 Palestinians and destroyed hundreeds of villages, and even then, their attack was against israeli forces in Palestine (ie. based outside of Israel).  In a meeting between Ernest Bevine (the British foreign secretary), and Tafik Abdul-Huda (the Jordanian PM), Bevine asked Abdul-Huda, what he planned to do. Abdul-Huda, replied that the plan was to send the Arab Legion to protect and keep the Arab part of Palestine. Bevin said that seemed the sensible thing to do, but do not invade the Jewish part.

This is exactly what Jordan did, and the line at which they stopped is today’s West Bank border.

>> There simply is nothing to back up the claim that the Arab states would make peace with Israel provided they move back to the 1967 borders.

Apaprently you have never heard of the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, which offers to recognize Israel and normalize relations as per the 1967 borders. 

The offer was signed by 22 arab States and remains open, in spite of Israel’s repaeted rejection. The terms of the offer have remained intact,

>> The so-called ‘Final Solution’ which is clearly the real goal of the anti-semites.

There is absoltely no basis for your argument.

Israel started the 1967 war. We have the testimony of 2 former Israeli prime minsters to prove it.  The word does not know the facts, but is slowly being informed, which is why Israel is regarded throughout Europe as a greatr threat to internaitonal security than even Iran and enjoys popularity only just slightly better than North Korea.
Israel is more isolated than ever before.  Egypt is no longer at it’s beck and call and it burned ibridges with Turkey.  Israel has been reduced to sucking up to Greece, which is bankrupts and winking at India and China with the US on the ropes.

It’s hardly surprising that with the tide of world opinion tunuing so strongly against Isael, that Netenyahu has chosen to reclassify over a million documents from the ‘49 adn ‘67 war (rather than release them as was expected) on the grounds that they threaten Israel’s security.

>> Any doubts about the real characters of the Arab despots who perpetuate the war on Israel should have been eliminated at this point by their recent attacks on their own people

With the exception of Syria, these happen to be the Arab despots that the US and Israel call it’s allies and friends.  When Mubarak was being overthrown, the only 2 states in the world that stood in his defense were ISrael and Saudi Arabia. 

What a fitting image that was - Israel standing shoulder to shoulder with the most vile dictatorhsip in the whole region – in support of another vile and brutal dictator.

Continued…

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

Russian Paul, - “if you are contesting the truth in (Robert’s) sources then it is your responsibility as a rational adult in a debate to provide your own sources.”

-

I am absolutely contesting Robert’s narratives and have outlined precisely the reasons I find fault in his perspective(s).  I feel no sense of responsibility to share links to others who believe just as I do.

You didn’t answer my first question.  Did you find a single one of Robert’s “sources” that turned out to be something other than another opinion on these subjects? Opinions, not surprisingly, which mimicked his own.

Let me try asking another way. Which link lead you to a set of verifiable facts?

-

I write that Palestinians living in these contested areas are living in horrific poverty while surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on the planet. All of them Arab.  These facts are easily verified in under 10 minutes.  No links needed.

I then opine that nothing, absolutely nothing, could have prevented 22 Arab nations from lifting these people out of their poverty several decades ago.  If you or Robert disagree, well then, I suppose it’s up to the two of you to prove me wrong.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

PHenry, - “Israel is #27 - #32 of per capita depending upon whose list you use.”

-

What’s that got to do with a handful of Arab countries being some of the wealthiest per capita nations on the globe?


How was your trip to Mecca?  Did you get close to the Holy land?  Or were you briskly turned away?  Also, were you able to get a photograph of yourself walking the streets of Tehran and Damascus wearing a yarmulke?  I’d like to see that.

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By Russian Paul, June 11, 2011 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Let me ask you three questions.  a. Would you be able to direct me toward
one link shared by Robert that was anything but another example of an opinion
in support of his own?

—————————
the question isn’t if Robert’s links support his opinion, but whither or not they
are factually sound. if you can provide evidence that some of his sources are
questionable, then feel free to share this information.

b. What good is any link if all he’s doing is adding yet another opinion to this
richly opinionated forum? - What a colossal waste of time.

————————————————————-
what would you expect one to do in a debate? he is backing up his opinion with
factual sources. none of this is a waste of time as Shingo and Robert are doing a
fantastic job of unraveling your very weak propaganda. you are getting
frustrated because the truth is on their side.

c Did any of his links show you something you had not already seen
numerous times before?

———————————
actually i found the links posted by both Robert and Shingo rather informative.
some of this information i was already aware of, some of it i was not. again, the
question here is whither or not these sources are factually accurate. if you are
contesting the truth in these sources then it is your responsibility as a rational
adult in a debate to provide your own sources.

If any person wishes to check my facts they are always free to do so.  If the
best anyone can do, which makes up 99% of all rebuttals here, is to offer an
opposing opinion, I’m simply not interested. I have wasted my time.

———————————————————-
Shingo has already checked your facts and has gone down the list, point by
point, where you have been factually dishonest. the rebuttals aren’t just
offering an opposing opinion, they are offering verifiable facts. again, you have
not wasted your time, you are giving Shingo, Robert and others the perfect
opportunity to debunk your propaganda with pure facts.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

>> For me, not supplying links is absolute. I simply refuse.

You have no option, seeing as there are no links to support your incoherent and baselss rants.

Seriously GRYM, explain to us how you’ve managed to do any research if you have such an aversion to references, sources and facts?  Any resaerch submitted to an academic institution that refuses to cite sources and references, would not only be failed, but the student would likely face expulsion on the grounds of fraud or plagiarism.

>> a. Would you be able to direct me toward one link shared by Robert that was anything but another example of an opinion in support of his own?

Robert has already produced over a dozen links in his posts, which is what pormpted you to critize him for relying too much on links.

>> b. What good is any link if all he’s doing is adding yet another opinion to this richly opinionated forum?

That’s like asking what good is doing experiments if one already has a theory. Anyone can share an opinion, but unless that opinion is founded on evidence, then it is worthless.

>> c Did any of his links show you something you had not already seen numerous times before?

Yes, but more importantly, they showed that your claims are false. If the links provided are not news to you GRYM, then what grounds do you have for rejecting them and making contradictory claims?  What grounds do you have to be taken serously if you cannot/will not provide links that refute those sources?

If indeed these links provide are all already familiar, then why not share links that prove the opposite case?

>>  Not a soul here cares a damn if I supply links to opinions which support my point of view.

That’s nothing more than excuse to lie. But you cannot claim to be sharing your opinion and then claiming you are sharing facts. 

All you have demonstrated is that your opinion is a very poorly educated one based on ignorance and discredited propaganda.

>> If any person wishes to check my facts they are always free to do so.

That’s precisely what we’ve been doing GRYM, checking your ‘facts’ and them producing links to prove that your ‘facts’and not factual at all. Any sensibly minded person would take note of any contradictory information presented to them and either accept it as valid, or prove why that information is flawed.  You don’t do that, but simply ignore it and continue to repeat your claims.

>> If the best anyone can do, which makes up 99% of all rebuttals here

That’s blatanlty false GRYM.  The best one can do is inform others as to what can be proven. 

>> It’s never that I am unable to supply links.  I simply and unequivically refuse.

No, it’s that you can’t GRYM.

>> With all that said, I happily supply links to several people here on TruthDig using the Private Mssg.

We tried that once before GRYM, and the entire exchange came down to you trying to lecture to me about showing you respect.  I told you to put up or shut up and you chose to shut up.

You’re simply a very bad liar and one with questionable mental faculties at that.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Russian Paul,

For me, not supplying links is absolute. I simply refuse.

Let me ask you three questions.  a. Would you be able to direct me toward one link shared by Robert that was anything but another example of an opinion in support of his own?  b. What good is any link if all he’s doing is adding yet another opinion to this richly opinionated forum? - What a colossal waste of time. c Did any of his links show you something you had not already seen numerous times before?

I offer my opinions. Just as all here do.  Not a soul here cares a damn if I supply links to opinions which support my point of view.

If any person wishes to check my facts they are always free to do so.  If the best anyone can do, which makes up 99% of all rebuttals here, is to offer an opposing opinion, I’m simply not interested. I have wasted my time.

It’s never that I am unable to supply links.  I simply and unequivically refuse.

-

With all that said, I happily supply links to several people here on TruthDig using the Private Mssg. tool. But that’s reserved for civil conversations.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry,

>> Shingo, your knowledge of the the history of this decades old conflict is truely remarkable and it is a lesson for me.

You’re mucht too kind.  There’s a great deal to learn about this subject and for me it’s an ongoing process, but the ore I seem to learn, the uglier the pciture becomes.  Even for critics of Israel, so much of what we take to be conventional wisdom is simply riddled with lies.

The biggest irony about GRYM’s miserable attempts at playing the anti Semitism card is that fact that 65 years after the Holocuast, the most desirable destinatino for Jews fro Israel and Russia is Germany.  Hundreds of thousands of Israelis are applying for passports and in last year, the rate at which Russian jews were choosing Gemrnay over Israel created such anxiety in Israel that the Israeli government lobbied the German government to cut off welfare to Jewish immigrants to motivate them to move to Israel.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

>>The Palestinian people living in Samaria and Gaza, while surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on the planet

They are poor because Israel has destroyed their economy, destroyed their livelihood and stolen their personal wealth by stealing their land.

>>  That no Arab nation will allow immigration from these areas the people of Gaza and Samaria have been deliberately sealed into a prison camp

The biggest prison camp being Gaza, which Israel created and maintains under siege. In spite of Israel’s efforts to make life as miserable and unbearable as possible for them for 65 years they refuse to leave. They are not being denied immigration, they don’t wish to emigrate.

>> these people where they have been starved and denied medicine, fuel, industrial centers, university and civic organization.

All of which, Israel continues to confiscate.

>> It’s also about being given absolutely no other option by neighboring Arab nations.

Israel has seen to it that they have absolutely no other option.  Palestinians in East Jerusalem cannto leave to stufy abroad, Palestinians in Gaza are trappped because of Israel and Palestinians in the West Bank are trapped by the occupation and the apartheid wall.

>> No embargo or sanctions regime could have prevented some of the wealthiest nations on earth from lifting these people out of such horrific poverty.

That is precisely what the siege was intended to create.  International Israeli documents revealed that the purpose of the sirge was to impose economic warfare against the peope of Gaza.

The 22 arab states have been forbidden bny the US from dealing with the Palestinians.  The last time Saudi Arabia tried to provide aid to Gaza, Washington stepped in and killed the deal.

>> China’s attempts to keep Taiwan down, both strategically and economically, failed for one reason only.  Outside desire and will.

You seriously have to be one fo the most idiotic commenters this foreum has ever seen GRYM. 

Taiwan has never been occupied by China.
Taiwan has never been atatcked by China.
Taiwan has never been blockaded by China.
Tiawan emjoys full independence, soverrighnty, self determination, self governance and freefom from ann Chinese influence.
Last year, China and Waiwae signed a full trade agreement.

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By PatrickHenry, June 11, 2011 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

The Palestinian people living in Samaria and Gaza, while surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on the planet

Using that same old canard again? which countries are those?  Show me some reference material. Israel is #27 - #32 of per capita depending upon whose list you use and they’re the leaders in the region (thanks to the U.S. welfare} They withhold food and medical aid to the Palestinians by an illegal embargo.

Some moral country and good neighbor.

I see you are once again trying to turn the arguement against Israels social injustice into one that broad brushes the Jews, all Jews everywhere.  This is what apoligists for Israel do when faced with facts of that countries over the top racism and state sponsered terrorism.

Shingo, your knowledge of the the history of this decades old conflict is truely remarkable and it is a lesson for me.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

diamond,

The Palestinian people living in Samaria and Gaza, while surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on the planet, are among the poorest people in the world.  That no Arab nation will allow immigration from these areas the people of Gaza and Samaria have been deliberately sealed into a prison camp where they have been starved and denied medicine, fuel, industrial centers, university and civic organization.

Obviously the issue is not solely one of a right to return.  It’s also about being given absolutely no other option by neighboring Arab nations.

No embargo or sanctions regime could have prevented some of the wealthiest nations on earth from lifting these people out of such horrific poverty.  With the will and desire NOTHING could have prevented meaningful prosperity over the last six decades!

YES, yes and yes Israel has, rightly or wrongly, felt a strategic need to keep contested areas depressed. From becoming too strong.  That does not absolve 22 Arab nations of doing precisely the same thing for nearly the same reasons.

-

China’s attempts to keep Taiwan down, both strategically and economically, failed for one reason only.  Outside desire and will.

The Palestinian people are indeed in a prison.  By Israel on one side and Arab nations on the rest.

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By brewerstroupe, June 11, 2011 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Seven questions for which “Anti-Semitism” is not the answer:

1. Why do Palestinians resent being dispossessed of their homes and land.

2. Why do Palestinians resent being under a 40 year occupation.

3. Why do activists criticise the Israeli Government, the IDF and supporters of the separatist policies of the Jewish State?

4. Why do Historians publish documents that prove a deliberate expulsion of Palestinians during the months preceding the 1948 War and those that prove a “Jewish State” was the aim of only one party involved in the League of Nations Mandate ie. the Zionists?

5. Why is Zionism seen as a particularly vicious form of Colonialism by all who have made a comprehensive study and are not beneficiaries of it?

6. Why have 124 Israeli children been killed by Palestinians and 1,463 Palestinian children been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

7. Why do I and others strive for a just solution to this conflict?

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/occamraz.html

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By Russian Paul, June 11, 2011 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

shingo - it’s a pleasure reading your very well informed rebuttals to the
propagandist GRYM and others. robert too, thank you for your input. it’s rather
telling that GRYM derides you for using “links” when he cannot verify any of the
nonsense he himself is spewing. thanks to you both for your patience.

i think shingo put it best here, basically GRYM in a nutshell:

“...GRYM resrts to racism and xenophobia, as a strategy for attacking anti-
Semitism, oblivious to the fact that opposition to anti-Semitism must be rooted in
opposing racism, not defending Israel.”

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By Dale Headley, June 11, 2011 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

One more myth: God gave Palestine to the Jews.  What god?

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By mike, June 11, 2011 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Go Right Young Man is absolutely correct. This endless and vicious attacks on Jews (disguised as ‘criticism of Israel’) are clearly and indisputably anti-semitism, if not outright nazism. It is more than a little astonishing that anyone at this point would even think of denying something so blatant, so obvious.

“This is pure paranoia & absolute hogwash. Arab states would sign a permanent peace treaty with Israel tomorrow in its pre-June 1967 borders.”

Sorry, but this is the real hogwash. The Arab war on Jews (again, disguised as war on Israel) did not begin in 1967, but decades before, and in fact predates by some decades the formal rebirth of Israel in 1948. The 1948 Declaration of War
by the Arab states documents this very clearly, and proves this rather conclusively. By even that declaration was just a continuation of violent attacks that date to the 19th century, and which are themselves the continuation of
centuries of anti-semitism in both the mideast and Europe.

There simply is nothing to back up the claim that the Arab states would make peace with Israel provided they move back to the 1967 borders. All the evidence indicates, in fact, that they would just move the goalposts and begin demanding the withdrawal to the 1948 boundaries, and following that, for the elimination of Israel entirely, and following that the elimination of Jews worldwide. The so-called ‘Final Solution’ which is clearly the real goal of the anti-semites. The emphasis on 1967 is merely an attempt to rewrite the history of the conflict and
to make it appear that it was begun by Israel in 1967, not by the Arabs much earlier. Fortunately, the world knows the facts and won’t buy this nonsense. Any doubts about the real characters of the Arab despots who perpetuate the war on Israel should have been eliminated at this point by their recent attacks on their own people, and their categorical refusal to entertain any notions of democracy or human rights.

In any case, it is more than time that the American and British anti-semites focus on the genuine war crimes and human rights abuses begin perpetuated by their own countries, which are infinitely worse than anything that Israel has done, and which, unlike Israel, have not been justified by any genuine threats to
those countries. If they are concerned about refugees they might begin by assisting the 4 million or so refugees from the Iraq War, especially the over 2 million of them in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, who are suffering terribly. Instead of making absurd claims that Gaza is a ‘concentration camp’ they might focus on
the well over 2 million people, mostly people of color, imprisoned in the American Gulag, which is the largest in human history, and which is unspeakably vile.

Regardless, Israel has won the war, and is able to defend itself. I feel sorry for the anti-semites for they will come to regret their hatred and bigotry, and, at the very least, find it very, very difficult to find employment. Ask Gibson, Galliano and the others.

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By diamond, June 11, 2011 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

“Anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism in whichever way it may be disguised.”

Fascinating. And what do you call it when Israeli soldiers shoot nine year old boys in the back? Is there a name for that as convenient and misused as ‘anti-Semitism’? Obviously not.

When you claim that the criticism of Israel is more vicious and more focused than that of other nations you may be right but then how many other nations are as big a threat to world peace as Israel is? The others don’t have America to come running every time they’re in trouble, to use its veto to protect them in the United nations or to supply them with every weapon they ask for. And almost none of them have 200 nuclear bombs to bargain with, as Israel does.
The world is simply growing tired of Israel’s claim that it is the victim when it is a nuclear armed regional superpower that no country in the region could effectively attack, let alone destroy.

The Palestinians have no army, no navy and no air force. They are among the poorest people in the world and the people of Gaza have been deliberately sealed into a prison camp where they have been starved and denied medicine and fuel. And these dispossessed wretches are going to destroy Israel? How? Their attempts to defend themselves from Israeli aggression are the equivalent of using bows and arrows and stones and slings against a modern, nuclear armed superpower. Which is why Israel has taken 70% of the land that was Palestine. The Palestinians have no effective means of defending themselves at all. They never had a military and they still don’t so Israel’s cruelty towards them is all the more astonishing, or would be if it was genuinely about self-defense. But it isn’t, it’s about taking all the rest of the land, and especially having access to the sea which is why it wants Gaza.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Robert,

My hope is that you one day you open your eyes and mind to what’s before your very face. 

Because the memory of the Nazi Holocaust still lingers after all these years, contemporary anti-Semitism is disguised as the socially more acceptable “anti-Zionism.” It is pursued and propagated by the radical left. Every leftist demonstration — be it about the war in Iraq, against globalization, for or against whatever else — does inevitably include appeals against “Israeli subjugation of the Palestinians,” the “occupation of Palestinian lands by Israel,” or simply asks for the elimination of Israel. Sadly, quite a few Jews, having been saturated with leftism from their early years, participate in such demonstrations.

While the propagation of the new anti-Semitism by prestige universities started in Europe (mostly in England), it has found fertile ground in the universities of the United States. The active participation in the new anti-Semitism by the American clergy (beginning with the mainline Presbyterians) is a scandalous reality.

Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism. But the viciousness, volume and consistency of this criticism against Israel is such that it cannot be considered as anything but anti-Semitism — the new anti-Semitism, disguised as anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism. The foolish professors and the hypocritical preachers are besotted by their leftism and by their hatred against Israel and America. Overt vilification of America has to remain muted — it’s somewhat dangerous to be too outspoken about it — but Israel, perceived as the satrap and the handmaiden of the United States in the Middle East, is an easy target. Nobody should be fooled. Anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism in whichever way it may be disguised.

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By omop, June 11, 2011 at 11:12 am Link to this comment

It is the same old story…....

The Jewish sense of alienation from, and abiding distrust of, non-Jews
is also manifest in a remarkable essay published in 2002 in the
Forward, the prominent Jewish community weekly. Entitled “We’re Right,
the Whole World’s Wrong,” it is written by Rabbi Dov Fischer, an
attorney and a member of the Jewish Community Relations Committee
of the Jewish Federation of Los Angeles.

Rabbi Fischer is also
national vice president of the Zionist Organization of America. He is
thus not an obscure or semi-literate scribbler, but rather an influential
Jewish community figure. And this piece did not appear in some
marginal periodical, but rather in what is perhaps the most literate and
thoughtful Jewish weekly in America, and certainly one of the most
influential.

In his essay, Rabbi Fischer tells readers: “If we Jews are anything, we are
a people of history … Our history provides the strength to know that
we can be right and the whole world wrong.” He goes on:

“We were right, and the whole world was wrong. The Crusades. The
blood libels and the Talmud burnings in England and France, leading
those nations to expel Jews for centuries. The Spanish and Portuguese
Inquisition.

“Today, once again, we alone are right and the whole world is wrong.

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By Robert, June 11, 2011 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, June 11 at 8:40 am


“The new anti-Semites do not publicly proclaim their desire to bring about a second Holocaust or to subject the Jews to mass murder or annihilation. The hatred is aimed against the state of Israel”

~~~~~~~~~

GRYM…This is pure paranoia & absolute hogwash. Arab states would sign a permanent peace treaty with Israel tomorrow in its pre-June 1967 borders.

Israel does NOT want to give up the post-June 1967 Occupied Territories & their resources. It has poured billions of American taxpayers $$$ money. If peace is achieved, then there would no need for the $3-5 billion annually from the American taxpayer’s money going to Israel.

All this fear drama & propaganda by Israel/zionism’s mega-phones is to keep that American aid & diplomatic support coming to them….non-stop…and of course to keep their brutal Occupation of the Palestinian people…in place indefinitely.

Which state in Mid-East has massive & undeclared Nuclear Weapons, stockpiles of chemical weapons & other WMD….

Its NOT Iraq; Its NOT Iran...Its Israel!!!

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

Robert,

>> THE JEWS OF IRAQ

Another fine example of how wonderful Zionism has been for Jews and how wonderfully Zionists treat Jews.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 8:40 am Link to this comment

Robert, - “I have been posting on TD for several years & just like I told you previously, many of my posts are authored by Jews who are on the side of justice, human rights, truth, international law, fairness, humanity and NOT on the side of the evils of zionism….”

-

The new anti-Semites do not publicly proclaim their desire to bring about a second Holocaust or to subject the Jews to mass murder or annihilation. The hatred is aimed against the state of Israel, which, according to the latest incarnation of anti-Semites, represents all that is evil in the world and which is the main violator of human rights and guilty of virtually every other abuse that can be conceived. This acrid poison is now so widespread that a poll taken in Europe not too long ago found Israel to be the greatest menace to the peace of the world — far ahead of such murderous regimes as those of Iran or of North Korea.

The leaders and instigators of this new anti-Semitism are concentrated on the political left, its most active and vocal spokesmen being found in our prestige universities. Such is the anti-Zionist (anti-Semitic) focus of the left that, almost incomprehensibly, it includes a fair number of Jewish professors and other “intellectuals,” not just here in the United States, but even in Israel itself.

Those on the extreme left call for the abolition of the State of Israel outright, although they do not tell us what they propose to do with the five million Israeli Jews. They would presumably be left to the tender mercies of the Arabs, who would, of course, have no greater joy than to emulate or perhaps even to “improve” on the Nazi model and to give “final solution(!) to the Jewish problem” once and for all.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Robert,

I take my hat off to you for the patience you have in dealing with GRYM.  His aversion to links, sources, facts and historical records, and his inability to stick to the topic is a text book example of how Zionism has become anti intellectualism.

The poor guy simply comes of sounding tone deaf and senile, reminding me of a homeless person suffering psychotic episodes as he walks in public, having violent arguments with unseen people and the voices in his head.

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By Robert, June 11, 2011 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

THE JEWS OF IRAQ

By Naim Giladi

“On January 14, 1951, at 7 p.m., a grenade was thrown
at a group of Jews outside the Masouda Shem-Tov
Synagogue. The explosive struck a high-voltage cable,
electrocuting three Jews, one a young boy, Itzhak
Elmacher, and wounding over 30 others. Following the
attack, the exodus of Jews jumped to between 600-700
per day.

Zionist propagandists still maintain that the bombs
in Iraq were set off by anti-Jewish Iraqis who wanted
Jews out of their country.
The terrible truth is that the
grenades that killed and maimed Iraqi Jews and
damaged their property were thrown by Zionist Jews.

Among the most important documents in my book, I
believe, are copies of two leaflets published by the
Zionist underground calling on Jews to leave Iraq. One
is dated March 16, 1950, the other April 8, 1950.

The judge concluded they were duplicated on the same stenciling machine as the leaflets
distributed by the Zionist movement just before the April
8th bombing.

Tests also showed that the type of explosive used in
the Beit-Lawi attack matched traces of explosives found
in the suitcase of an Iraqi Jew by the name of Yosef Basri.
Basri, a lawyer, together with Shalom Salih, a shoemaker,
would be put on trial for the attacks in December 1951
and executed the following month. Both men were
members of Hashura, the military arm of the Zionist
underground. Salih ultimately confessed that he, Basri
and a third man, Yosef Habaza, carried out the attacks.
By the time of the executions in January 1952, all but
6,000 of an estimated 125,000 Iraqi Jews had fled to Israel.”


{Leaflets distributed by the Zionist underground in Iraq were
few in number, sometimes issued months apart. The leaflet of
April 8, 1950, was unusual in that it carried the time of day—4
o’clock p.m.—not just the date. Five hours later, during
Passover celebrations in Baghdad, a cafe frequented by Jews
was the target of a bomb. Was the hour mentioned because
the underground itself was behind the bombing, which it
hoped would violently punctuate its 4 p.m. advisory? There
is strong evidence to support that conclusion.}

~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest of the details:

http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf

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By Robert, June 11, 2011 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, June 11 at 4:58 am

“Robert, it obviously aggravates you when others share contrary views.  It angers you even further to witness how others fail to share your same hatred toward Jews. - Both hatred and anger blinds the mind.”


GRYM…You need to practice what you are attempting to preach. You need to clean your house before you start to talk about the neighbor’s homes.

And there you go with your frail trick of anti-semitism/hating Jews. Its worn out…it does not work on me…I have been posting on TD for several years & just like I told you previously, many of my posts are authored by Jews who are on the side of justice, human rights, truth, international law, fairness, humanity and NOT on the side of the evils of zionism=racism, Apartheid, hatred, brutal occupation ...regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And BTW…I don’t get aggravated because you have a different view…the readers on TD need to see your zionist’s tactics & deceptive methods. They need to see your “research…LOA” with no links.

****

“Jews under Islam were treated as second-class citizens and worse.”

There are over 25,000 Jews who are living in Iran & the have been there for centuries. Israel has tried to lure them to move to Israel, but they refused because they are enjoying their lives, religion’s freedom & their culture…etc…They have no reason to move & to be used by zionism as political pawns.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

GRYM,
>> Jews in Arab Countries Bofore Being Forced to Leave Their Lives and Homes. 
   
Correction.  The numbers you provided are of those that migrated to Israel of their own accord.  The argument that there are few and no Jews in those states now is not proof that they were forced to leave.

Another Israeli academic with Iraqi roots, Yehouda Shenhav had a lot of things to say about the bogus Zionist claim that 800,000 Jews were expelled.

Of course SOME were definitely expelled like from Egypt, but not all of them. Some Jews were insulted at having being branded “refugees” by the Zionists because it negated their having made aliyah. A small piece from his essay that appeared in Haaretz in 2003:

“… Any reasonable person, Zionist or non-Zionist, must acknowledge that the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews is unfounded. Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine. Many Palestinian communities were destroyed in 1948, and some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled, or fled, from the borders of historic Palestine. Those who left did not do so of their own volition.

In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations. Some came of their own free will; others arrived against their will. Some lived comfortably and securely in Arab lands; others suffered from fear and oppression.”

More from Yehouda Shenhav:

“… The WOJAC (The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries) figure who came up with the idea of “Jewish refugees” was Yaakov Meron, head of the Justice Ministry’s Arab legal affairs department. Meron propounded the most radical thesis ever devised concerning the history of Jews in Arab lands. He claimed Jews were expelled from Arab countries under policies enacted in concert with Palestinian leaders – and he termed these policies “ethnic cleansing.” Vehemently opposing the dramatic Zionist narrative, Meron claimed that Zionism had relied on romantic, borrowed phrases (“Magic Carpet,” “Operation Ezra and Nehemiah”) in the description of Mizrahi immigration waves to conceal the “fact” that Jewish migration was the result of “Arab expulsion policy.” In a bid to complete the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews, WOJAC publicists claimed that the Mizrahi immigrants lived in refugee camps in Israel during the 1950s (i.e., ma’abarot or transit camps), just like the Palestinian refugees.

The organization’s claims infuriated many Mizrahi Israelis who defined themselves as Zionists. As early as 1975, at the time of WOJAC’s formation, Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu declared: “We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations.”

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: “I don’t regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”

In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: “I have this to say: I am not a refugee.” He added: “I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee.”

The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC’s political department, asked the organization’s secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg’s Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of “Sephardi Jews as refugees” ever come up again. Such remonstration precisely predicted the failure of the current organization, Justice for Jews from Arab Countries to inspire enthusiasm for its efforts.”

That should put and end to this pathetic Hasbara. Not even Israel’s leadership bothers making this phony claim.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 6:26 am Link to this comment

Jews in Arab Countries Bofore Being Forced to Leave Their Lives and Homes.   
     
     
     
                    1948           Now  
 
     
     
     
    Algeria       140,000       0    
     
         
    Egypt       75,000       100    
     
         
    Iraq           135,000       100    
     
         
    Lebanon       5,000       100    
     
     
    Libya           38,000       0    
     
         
    Morocco         265,000       5,700    
     
         
    Sryia             30,000       100    
     
         
    Tusnia           105,000       1,500    
     
         
    Yemen           55,000       200

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 5:55 am Link to this comment

The real tragedy is that the Palestinians are the descendents of the Jews and Israel knows it, yet treats them as sub human.  Early Zionist leaders David Ben-Gurion and Yitzchak Ben-Tzvi wrote in a book 100 years ago: “If we investigate the origins of the Felahim, there is no doubt that much Jewish blood runs in their veins.” The authors implied that these Jews loved the Land so much that they were willing to give up their religion. The reference is probably to an edict in the year 1012 by Caliph el-Hakim, who ordered the non-Muslims to either convert or leave the Land of Israel. It is estimated that 90 percent of the Jews chose the former, though many continued to practice Judaism in secret. The decree was revoked 32 years later - apparently too late for about 75 percent of the converts.

>>  Most left following the strident invocations of their leaders, who urged them to leave, so as to make room for the invading Arab armies.

False.  Benny Moriris debuked this lie a long time ago. He writes that:

“Whatever the reasoning and attitude of the Arab states’ leaders, I have found no contemporary evidence to show that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti [Hajj Amin al-Husseini] ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus during April [1948]. It may be worth noting that for decades the policy of the Palestinian Arab leaders had been to hold fast to the soil of Palestine and to resist the eviction and displacement of Arab communities”.

>> After victory was to be achieved, they could return to reclaim their property and that of the Jews, all of whom would have been killed or would have fled.

Flase again. 

Ben Gurion wrote in his diary that Israel explicitly rejected the return of the Palestrinian refugees after the war.  In fact, the were so adament that this would not be allowed to happen that the Stern Gang assassinated Count Bernadotte after he said in his report to the UN in 1948, that “It would be an offence against the principals of elementary justice if these innocent victims were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants from into Palestine and indeed offer the threat of permanent replacement of the Arab refugees who have been rooted in the land for centuries”.

>> These “refugees,” whose number has by now miraculously increased from their original 650,000 to 5 million, are seething with hatred toward Israel and provide the cadres of terrorists and suicide bombers.

There is nothing miraculous about the fact that the population of the refugees has increased 9 fold in 60 years.

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

Again, another New York Times story from May 2nd, 1948 titled “Dispair is Voiced by Arab Refugees: Evacuees from Palestine say Jews Crash Through Weak Resistance by Volunteers”:

“A stream of Arab refugees is moving eastward across the Jordan river. Many of the refugees passing Jericho en route to Trans-Jordan, a few miles away, are from Jerusalem and Jaffa. They say they fear that Jewish offensives are crashing through weakened Arab volunteer resistance. Haifa was described as almost a ghost town, with its population having dwindled to less than 20,000 from a normal figure at least five times that.”

Another article appearing in the New York Times titled “Palestine Strife Creates DP Issue” is dated May 3rd, 1948 stating “200,000 Arabs are now listed as homeless”:

“It is believed that possibly 50,000 Arabs left Jaffa, thousands of them by sea. Other thousands have fled inland, large numbers of them to become cave dwellers in the historic caves of Beit Jibrin, northwest of Hebron…at least 40,000 Arabs left Haifa when the combined Haganah and Irgun Zvai Leumi force stormed the Arab market place and conquered all of the city except the British-held waterfront. From Jerusalem wealthy Arabs have fled to near-by countries, the poorer ones into the hills and villages.”
Another New York Times story, this one from April 18th, 1948, tells of horror among refugees and massacres in the Galilee:

“According to reports telephoned from Nablus, that town and Jenin are crowded with refugees, among whom the rumor is circulating that the Jews are driving on Jenin. The Haganah said it had killed 130 Druse [sic] tribesmen yesterday when it seized Usha, a village east of Haifa.”

The only place where Jews experienced violence was in Badghada, when Israel set off bobs at Jewish centres to trick the Jews in Iraq into beliveing they were being persecuted by Arabs and force them to migrate to Israel.
Yes I know, it is shocking and outregeous indeed to imagine that so soon after the horrors of the Holocasut, Jews were murdering Jews in terrorist attacks for polictical aims. Zionism is the last of the 19th century isms (other than capitalism) to survive. How did it last so long ? Probably because it was protected by religion. But that religion itself has become sabotaged.
The vast majority of those Jews migrated to Israel were tricked into doing so by the Israeli government and later expoited for cheap labor.  A great many regreted migrating, as their lives were better in their Arab homes.
The 900,000 figure was inveted arbitrarily to equate and usurp the real numbers of Arab se expelled from Israel to make a half hearted argument that there was a population transfer.
850,000 Jews were driven from Arab countries, most of them in 1948, at the birth of Israel.
These Jews from Arab countries were forced by Zionist agencies and their actions to leave homelands, to leave their own villas and move to Israel where they were treated with racist patronizing condescensions, where they were forced to ‘assimilate’ by forgetting their language, their culture, and their own names as many were Hebrewized. And let us not forget the alienation they felt when they were sprayed with de-licers upon arrival in Israel as they were considered to be ‘unclean’, or the squalid conditions in which they were housed in Ma’barot to serve as the labor force for the ‘civilized’ racist Zionist Europeans.

It is generally accepted that most Jews left the Land of Israel after the failed Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE. Yet many remained, and of these, many are still here, after having been forced to convert to Islam. “It turns out that a large part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel are actually descendants of forced converts to Islam over the years,” says Rabbi Dov Stein of the nascent Sanhedrin rabbinical council. “There are some studies that say that 85 percent of the Arabs in Israel are descended from Jews; others say there are fewer.”

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By Shingo, June 11, 2011 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

GRYM,

Contrarian views are not the issue, what is the issue is your issitence that facts and evidence can be ignored and are secdary to your own unspported diatribes.

It’s much like the debate you and I had when you insted that rockets had been fired at Israel throughout 2008, yet when I provided you with data from the Israeli government that proved otherwise, you refused to accept it, insisting that that the only way to obtain the truth would be to speak to the residents of the West Bank (i.e Jews only).

I suspect you knpow how pathetic, shallow and uncovnincing your arguments are, hence your need to cling pul the anti Semitic card at every turn in the vain hope of convincing yourself that you are still in the race.

Mulisms under Zionism are treated as second-class citizens and worse. The relationship is governed by a system of discrimination, intended to reduce the Muslism in Israel to conditions of humiliation, segregation and violence.  In the occupied territtories it is far, far worse.  Israel kills Palestinians at a rate fo one every two days.

Palestinians are excluded from society, from effective roles in government, and from most professions. They are barely tolerated and often, under the slightest pretext or no pretext at all, are victimized by vicious violence.  Their homes are demilished and then they are denied permits to rebuild.

Five months before Israel declared its statehood in 1948, pogroms wer carried out by Zionist militias thoughtout Palestine, thousands died in this violence and 750,000 were expelled.  Evidence shows that there were no such pogroms anywhere in the Arab world. Whereas Zionist militias destroyed no less than 420 villages and towns (half before Israel declared independence) no such evidence evists of any such events in Arab states against Jews.

It’s irinic that your fellow traveller, Walterbard insists on referrign to the NYTimes from that period.  Here is what the NYT had to say in 1947.

Masses of Palestinian refugees were created before one Arab soldier ‘attacked’ the new state of Israel. In one story from March, 20th, 1947, the New York Times actually addressed the pre-1948 situation as one of colonization and describes it rather appropriately. Imagining such characterization in the NY Times today is fantasy. I urge you to read the whole article, titled “Palestine Jews Minimize Arabs: Sure of Superiority, Settlers Feel They Can Win Natives By Reason or Force,” but here’s an excerpt:

“Whatever the degree of their superiority complex, however, the Jews are certainly confident of their ability to bring the Arabs to terms - by persuasion if possible, by might if necessary. The program of the largest terrorist group, the Irgun Zvai Leumi, is to evacuate the British forces from Palestine and declare a Zionist state west of the Jordan, and “we will take care of the Arabs.”

Despite this, the New York Times today repeats the ridiculous assertion commonplace in the Zionist narrative that the creation of the state was an innocent act that drew unprovoked and barbaric reaction from the Goliath Arab states. Here is another article, this one from April 16, 1948 and titled “Jews Press Arabs in Pitched Battle in North Palestine”:

“[Villages] taken yesterday were Dabiat er Ruha, Rihania and Kuteinat. Previously they had occupied Kufrin, Abu Sureik, Abu Shusha, Zerain, Naamieh, Ghubyat at Tahta and Ghubyat al Fauqha. Several bridges blown up by Haganah squads between Jenin and Lajjun are hampering Arabs [sic] communication.”

But today’s New York Times wants you to believe that the refugees created during the Nakba period, which is actually from 1947-1949, started only after Arab states attacked the newborn and sinless Israel. In reality, Zionist operations against Palestinian villages began well before the Arab armies crossed any borders. Half the total refugees created during the Nakba were created BEFORE May 15th, 1948.

Continued…

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By Go Right Young Man, June 11, 2011 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

Robert, it obviously aggravates you when others share contrary views.  It angers you even further to witness how others fail to share your same hatred toward Jews. - Both hatred and anger blinds the mind.

-

Jews under Islam were treated as second-class citizens and worse. The relationship was governed by a system of discrimination, intended to reduce the Jews in those Arab countries to conditions of humiliation, segregation and violence. They were excluded from society, from government, and from most professions. They were barely tolerated and often, under the slightest pretext or no pretext at all, were victimized by vicious violence.

When Israel declared its statehood in 1948, pogroms broke out across the entire Arab/Muslim world. Thousands died in this violence. Their homes and businesses were destroyed, their women violated. The vast majority of those Jews fled from where they had lived for centuries. They had to leave everything behind. Most of those who were able to escape found their way to the just-created state of Israel.

Over 850,000 Jews were driven from Arab countries, most of them in 1948, at the birth of Israel. Most of the remainder were chased out during or immediately following the Six-Day War in 1967, when, in fury about the disastrous defeat, the “Arab street” erupted and subjected its Jewish population to bloody pogroms. Israel received every one of those Jewish refugees from Arab countries with brotherly open arms; it housed, fed, and quickly integrated them into Israeli society. They and their descendants now make up more than one-half of the country’s population.

It is instructive to compare the history of those Jewish refugees with that of the Arabs who fled from Israel during its War of Independence. There were about 650,000 of them. Most left following the strident invocations of their leaders, who urged them to leave, so as to make room for the invading Arab armies. After victory was to be achieved, they could return to reclaim their property and that of the Jews, all of whom would have been killed or would have fled.

In contrast to the Jewish refugees, who were quickly integrated into Israel, the Arab countries resolutely refused to accept the Arab refugees into their societies. They confined them into so-called refugee camps. Those camps are essentially extended slum cities, where their descendants – now the fourth generation – have been living ever since. The reason for the Arabs’ refusal to accept them was and still is the desire to keep them as a festering sore and to make solution of the Arab/Israel conflict impossible. These “refugees,” whose number has by now miraculously increased from their original 650,000 to 5 million, are seething with hatred toward Israel and provide the cadres of terrorists and suicide bombers.

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By Robert, June 10, 2011 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

GRYM…Just the GRIM facts your way !!!


ARAB PARENTS MUST STOP TEACHING HATE TO THEIR CHILDREN!

yom yeru 2011

06.01.2011 | YouTube


Click on link for the details:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/arab-parents-must-stop-teaching-hate-to-their-children/

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By Robert, June 10, 2011 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, June 10 at 6:55 pm


“Wheras GRYM simply veers off on his own off topic, irrelevant, incoherent tangents and tries desperately to cloack himself with the anti Semitism defense.”

~~~~~~

Shingo...GRYM’s deceptive ways/tactics are so transparent. His lame tactic of anti-semitic branding/labeling & desperate attempts to sidetrack, change the topic, distract, divert,  the TRUTH about Apartheid Israel/Zionism=Racism on these threads…has not done him nor his propaganda/hasbara much good.

walterbard…is a racist zionist pip-squeak. His rotten hasbara has not amounted to anything…except to expose his degree of “skull infection”. These guys have been brainwashed since childhood & can’t see the facts/truth about the lies that zionism has been teaching them. Miko Peled talks/writes about the 3 Myths regarding Israel. 


Here are some the most common tactics used by zionists…those “hasbara meisters” & they seem to think of themselves as “CLEVER”:


If a non-Jew exposes Zionism, he/she is called “anti-semitic” & if a Jew does it, they call him a self-hating Jew. BTW, its just a smokescreen to conceal the Zionists deceptive actions.


- First, zionists ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution.

- If the information starts reaching too many people, zionists ridicule the information and the persons giving the information.

- If that doesn’t work, their next step is character assassination.


- But, they almost NEVER try to prove the information wrong.


Take a look at what Shulamit Aloni, a former Israeli minister, had to say to Amy Goodman on DemocracyNow regarding “anti-semitism”.


ITS A TRICK, WE ALWAYS USE IT…CALLING PEOPLE ANTI-SEMITIC” ...We use it in this country (USA). In Europe we bring up the Holocaust.

Here is the video/interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUGVPBO9_cA&feature=fvw

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

>> It looks like that whimpering walterbard has slithered back into his dark zionist hole..

Wheras GRYM simply veers off on his own off topic, irrelevant, incoherent tangents and tries desperately to cloack himself with the anti Semitism defense.

Interestingly, GRYM resrts to racism and xenophobia, as a strategy for attacking anti-Semitism, oblivious to the fact that opposition to anti-Semitism must be rooted in opposing racism, not defending Israel.

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

As for your lame bullet points:

>> All Israeli television and newspapers are censored by the Likud party.

Israel banned all foreign media from entering Gaza during Cast Lead and confiscated all cameras and video equpment from the passengers of the Mavi Marmara – and never returned it.

>> Preteen Israeli children are apprehended with bombs under their shirts on their way to the West Bank to murder Palestinian families.

Whereas Israeli children are taught to write love letters on bombs about to be dropped on children in Arab states.

>> Israeli crowds rush into the street to dip their hands into the blood of their dead and march en masse chanting mass murder to the Palestinians.

They are already doing that. Thousands of lovely white shirts in Jerusalem last week:
chanting “Muhammad is Dead!”
Spitting at a Palestinian compound
chanting “butcher the Arabs… death to Arabs… May your village burn…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Qsapnz_n4&feature=player_embedded

>> Rabbis give public sermons in which they characterize Palestinians as the children of pigs and monkeys.

Already doing that.

Israel’s Orthodox Rabbis: ‘Palestinians to the Ovens!’
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/israel’s-orthodox-rabbis-‘palestinians-to-the-ovens’-«-tikun-olam-????-????-make-the-world-a-better-place/

>> Mainstream Israeli politicians, without public rebuke, call for the destruction of Palestinians on the West Bank and the end to Arab society there.

Liberman, a mainstream Israeli politician, called for Palestiniasn to be drowned in the Galilee.

>> Likud party members routinely lynch and execute their opponents without trial.

The settlers, all of whom are Likud voters, do that all the time.

>> Israeli mobs with impunity tear apart Palestinian policemen held in detention.

The IDF massacred 250 polieman on the first day of Cast Lead.

>> Israeli television broadcasts—to the tune of patriotic music—the last taped messages of Jewish suicide bombers who have slaughtered dozens of Arabs.

Israe has honored terorrist leaders who killed thousands of Arabs.  It elected terorrist leaders to the highest office in the land, has created riboons for the IDF named after the Irfun and Stern gangs and this year, the Meachen Begin Centree honored the Irgun on it’s 80th anniversary.

>> Jewish marchers parade in the streets with their children dressed up as suicide bombers, replete with plastic suicide-bombing vests.

No such parades have ever taken place.

>> New Yorkers post $25,000 bounties for every Palestinian blown up by Israeli murderers.

New Yorkers give tens of millions to Israel to blow up Palestinians.  The IDF holds frequent fund raising activities in NY.

>> Israeli militants murder a Jew by accident and then apologize on grounds that they though he was an Arab—to the silence of Israeli society.

>> Israeli public figures routinely threaten the United States with terror attacks.

No Palestinians have routinely threaten the United States with terror attacks, thogh Israel has carried them out.

>> Bin Laden is a folk hero in Tel Aviv.

Ronald reagan praised Bin Laden for exemplifying the same values as Ameirca’s founding fathers
.
>> Jewish assassins murder American diplomats and are given de facto sanctuary by Israeli society.
No Palestinian assassins have murder American diplomats.

>> Israeli citizens celebrate on news that 3,000 Americans have been murdered.

Israeli citizens celebrated and danved in fron tof the Twin Towers.  The Isralei prime Minister is the only world leader to hacve described the attacks as “very good”.

>> Israeli citizens express support for Ayman Zawahiri’s supporters in Pakistan in their efforts to kill Americans.

Israelis priased the IDF for killing Americans. Modhe Dayan, who ordered the attack on the USS Liberty, is revered as a national hero.

The last time the Palestinians held open elections, Israel massacred Palestinians

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

>> I’m inching closer to your hate-filled racist ways.

You beat him to it GRYM,

In spite fo your desperate efforts to revive hysteria about anti Semtism, the eraluity is that anti Semtism is on the wane, not on the rise. Yale’s recent decision to terminate the Yale Institute for the Interdisciplinary Study of Anti-Semitism is slowly drawing more attention to the fact that there is little interest in the topic.

Zionism has always has been the mirror image of anti-semitism. It arose at the same time as racialist anti-semitism, with which it agreed whole-heartedly on the failure, or mere undesirability, of the liberal ideals of Jewish integration and assimilation; that Jews had no place in the “German nation”; there were no “Germans of the Mosaic persuasion”, or French, or English, only, eternally, essentially, “Jews”, forever alien and apart.
“[W]e are at an important crossroads when it comes to ideas about anti-Semitism… If … opposition to anti-Semitism is based on a sense of justice, then it is simply inconsistent to perpetuate injustice in Palestine on the basis of opposition to anti-Semitism. The two positions – opposition to anti-Semitism and active support for justice, freedom, and equality for the Palestinians – must, instead, accommodate and reinforce one another.”
This is true on its face. However, anti-semitism (while abhorent)  is utterly insignificant and marginal, as the professional anti-anti-semites like the ADL concede reluctantly. We will be “at an important crossroads when it comes to ideas about anti-Semitism” when we replace critique and study of anti-semitism with critique and study of Zionism, which threatens to precipitate horrors which may make the Judeocide look like collateral damage.

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

Walterbard
You forget to mention that the “The Protocols of Zion"are read as much in Israel as it is in Arab countries.

>> Sadly Mein Kampf doesn’t sell as well in Israel as it does in Turkey since the islamic fundamentalist took over. Among Palestinians it
has always been a best seller.

>>  The first hand storiesI heard about what happened in Baghdad in 1941 would make your skin crawl.

Did they tell you about the Zionist terror bombings of 1950 – 51, that tergetted Jewish targets in order to instill fear into the Jewish community and incite them to escape to Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950–1951_Baghdad_bombings

Then there was the Zioniost bombing of the SS Patria in Haifa Harbor by the Haganah, which killed 180.  Apparently these brother’s keepers didn’t like the British plan to send European Jewish refugees to camps in Mauritius for the duration of the war. 180 were killed so the terrorists could make the point that Jewish victims of the Holocaust were better off dead in Eretz Israel, than alive in Mauritius.
 
If the Zionists and kill Jews by the hundreds and blow up each other’s buildings can you imagine what they do to the Muslims?

>> Also one should look up the mass murder of Jews that occured in Hebron in April 1929.

I already mentioned the Hebron massacre a day earlier.  As it turned out, many Jewrs were protected by the Palestinian population in Hebron.

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

>> I fear you have become dependent on “Links”.  To me you appear either lazy or unaccomplished in research.

There you have it Robert,

GRYM has this problem with facts and evidence getting in the way of “research”,  as though to sugegst the two are mutually exclusive.

>> I am not here to supply you with links to all those who happen to agree with me.

Why not GRYM? Wouldn’t links at least prove to us that you are not simply making things up or evenying?

If you’ve done any research, as you imply, then surely you can produce a large volume if supporting evidence.

If you are familiar with scholarship and scholarly papers, you’d be aware that footnotes, citations and references are mandatory. I’ve yet to hear of a thesis have never been regarded as lazy on the part of the author for relying on references.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 10, 2011 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment

Robert,

You are absolutely right. The things I personally share on this Web space will have little to no effect on many. Then again, it’s always good to have different points of view present.

I fear you have become dependent on “Links”.  To me you appear either lazy or unaccomplished in research. I am not here to supply you with links to all those who happen to agree with me. Do you even realize that that is all you ever post? I’ve never seen information from you I haven’t already seen or heard.

Obviously we are different. Validation by way of locating similar views is not what I’m looking for here.

It’s not possible for me to care any less who agrees with you.

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By Robert, June 10, 2011 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, June 10 at 10:26 am

Robert,

I’m inching closer to your hate-filled racist ways.  After much deliberation I’ve come to the conclusion that we should no longer support Israel, when…

~~~~~~~~~

GRYM...Just a sample of a few from your so called list of “conclusions = delusions” & BTW, I provided a link/source to back up my posts.

Your sidetracking attempts are not working for you & they are not getting much sympathy for Apartheid/Racist Israel:

@@@@@


“Israeli crowds rush into the street to dip their hands into the blood of their dead and march en masse chanting mass murder to the Palestinians.”


6/1/2011

“No doubt may of you will have seen the footage already from the “Jerusalem Day” march by rightwing Israeli Zionists in Israel. The footage shoot by the Sheik Jarrah Movement, show the marchers chanting racist chants against Palestinians such as “let your village burn”, “butcher the Arabs”, “death to Mohammad”, “I hate all Arabs” as well as “death to all leftist”. You can see the video here”:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Qsapnz_n4&feature=player_embedded


*****


“Jewish assassins murder American diplomats and are given de facto sanctuary by Israeli society.”


“When Israeli-American Jonathan Pollard was arrested for spying in 1986, Tel Aviv assured us that he was not an Israeli agent but part of a “rogue” operation. That was a lie.

Only 12 years later did Tel Aviv concede that he was an Israeli spy the entire time he was stealing U.S. military secrets. That espionage—by a purported ally—damaged our national security more than any operation in U.S. history.

Many American CIA operatives lost their lives due to Pollard’s releasing documents to the Russians.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25976.htm


Israel has long worked to create enmity between Egypt and the U.S. In the early 1950s the Israeli secret service, the Mossad, hatched a plan to firebomb areas in Egypt where Americans gathered—and to make these attacks appear to be the work of Muslim extremists. The plot was discovered and caused a scandal in Israel known as the “Lavon Affair,” but few Americans have ever heard of it. Some analysts suspect that other such plots succeeded and that the little-known Israeli attack on the U.S. Navy ship USS Liberty may have been a similar false-flag operation. (Certainly, there is little doubt that the U.S. would have attacked Egypt if Liberty crew members had not succeeded, against all odds, in getting a distress signal out before Israel succeeded in sinking the ship with all men aboard. In the end, 34 sailors were killed in the assault and about 170 were wounded. The ship limped back to port in Malta.)”

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir02042011.html

******


“Israeli citizens celebrate on news that 3,000 Americans have been murdered.”

THE FIVE DANCING ISRAELIS ARRESTED ON 9/11 - High Fives/Celebrating

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVDCzymSTw8

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By Go Right Young Man, June 10, 2011 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

walterbard,

In fact Mein Kampf is the best selling book in Kuwait, Turkey, Muslim Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon.  Al-Shurouq, a Ramallah based book distributor, lends the book for free. Aside from the Koran, Mein Kampf is the most read book in Samaria and Judea in contemporary times.

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By walterbard, June 10, 2011 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

To Go right.
You forget to mention that the “The Protocols of Zion"are read as much in Israel as it is in Arab countries.
Sadly Mein Kampf doesn’t sell as well in Israel
as it does in Turkey since the islamic fundamentalist took over. Among Palestinians it
has always been a best seller.


I mentioned Ocean Parkway because I used to live there. Though I’m not a shephardic Jew I was friendlywitn many and dated a few. The first hand storiesI heard about what happened in Baghdad in 1941 would make your skin crawl. Also one should look up the mass murder of Jews that occured in Hebron in April 1929.

If the sunni moslems and shi’ite moslems kill
each other by the thousands and blow up each other’s mosues can you imagine what they do to the Jews and Christians. Correction just read the papers, there’s nothing left to the imagination

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By surfnow, June 10, 2011 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Every gentile who criticizes anything Israel does is automatically labelled an Anti-Semite. If you’re a Jew and you do, you’re a ” self-hating Jew.” It reminds me of the polarization created by the OJ trial. Blacks had to support OJ no matter how much evidence there was against him. It’s time to tell the truth and stand up for what is right, regardless of who you are - the truth is the truth.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 10, 2011 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

Robert,

I’m inching closer to your hate-filled racist ways.  After much deliberation I’ve come to the conclusion that we should no longer support Israel, when…

Netanyahu suspends all elections and plans a decade of unquestioned rule.

Netanyahu suspends all investigation about fiscal impropriety as his family members spend millions of Israeli aid money in Paris.

All Israeli television and newspapers are censored by the Likud party.

Preteen Israeli children are apprehended with bombs under their shirts on their way to the West Bank to murder Palestinian families.

Israeli crowds rush into the street to dip their hands into the blood of their dead and march en masse chanting mass murder to the Palestinians.

Rabbis give public sermons in which they characterize Palestinians as the children of pigs and monkeys.

Israeli school textbooks state that Arabs engage in blood sacrifice and ritual murders.

Mainstream Israeli politicians, without public rebuke, call for the destruction of Palestinians on the West Bank and the end to Arab society there.

Likud party members routinely lynch and execute their opponents without trial.

Jewish fundamentalists execute with impunity women found guilty of adultery on grounds that they are impugning the “honor” of the family.

Israeli mobs with impunity tear apart Palestinian policemen held in detention.

Israeli television broadcasts—to the tune of patriotic music—the last taped messages of Jewish suicide bombers who have slaughtered dozens of Arabs.

Jewish marchers parade in the streets with their children dressed up as suicide bombers, replete with plastic suicide-bombing vests.

New Yorkers post $25,000 bounties for every Palestinian blown up by Israeli murderers.

Israeli militants murder a Jew by accident and then apologize on grounds that they though he was an Arab—to the silence of Israeli society.

Israeli public figures routinely threaten the United States with terror attacks.

Bin Laden is a folk hero in Tel Aviv.

Jewish assassins murder American diplomats and are given de facto sanctuary by Israeli society.

Israeli citizens celebrate on news that 3,000 Americans have been murdered.

Israeli citizens express support for Ayman Zawahiri’s supporters in Pakistan in their efforts to kill Americans.

* * *

So until then, I think most Americans can see the moral differences in the present struggle.

If the Palestinians wish to hold periodic and open elections, establish an independent judiciary, create a free press, arrest murderers, subject their treasury to public scrutiny, eschew suicide murdering, censure religious leaders who call for mass murder, embrace non-violent dissidents, extend equal rights to women, end honor killings, raise funds in the Arab world earmarked only to build water, sewer, transportation, and education infrastructure, and pledge that any Jews who choose to live in the West Bank will enjoy the same rights as Arabs in Israel, then they might find Americans equally divided over questions of land and peace.

But all that is a lot of ifs. And so for the present, Palestinian leaders shouldn’t be too surprised that Americans increasingly find very little in their society that has much appeal to either our values or sympathy. If they continually assure us publicly that they are furious at Americans, then they should at least pause, reflect, and ask themselves why an overwhelming number of Americans—not Jewish, not residents of New York, not influenced by the media—are growing far more furious with them.

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By Robert, June 10, 2011 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

It looks like that whimpering walterbard has slithered back into his dark zionist hole…increasingly distraught, licking his blisters & wounds, from the TRUTH thread posters…his zionist hasbara greatly diminished & shredded right before everyone’s eyes.

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By Rudolfo, June 10, 2011 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

>> Go Right:  Hating Jews, on racial as well as religious grounds, is as old as the Roman destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

This is from a review of I. Shahak’s book “Jewish History, Jewish Religion” ...

“When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the peoples of the world in their intense hatred and contempt for all peoples but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews’ religious writings or from a study of the Jews’ behavior toward non-Jews.”

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By Robert, June 10, 2011 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

Israel currently has 236 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ on Palestinian Land


Israel currently has 124 Jewish-only settlements, 100 ‘outposts,’ and 12 ‘neighborhoods’ annexed to Jerusalem – all built on confiscated Palestinian land.

Palestinians do not have any
settlements on Israeli land.

 

“The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

-Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949

~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the details/chart…these settlements/outposts are FOR JEWS ONLY…and ROADS FOR JEWS ONLY all financed by our broke American taxpayers $$$:


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html#source

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

As I explained to Walterbard, Israel is a fascist, apartheid, parish state that is sadly heading over a cliff.

IN spite of your delusions about Israeli success, the state still requires massive US aid to function.  Beyond the 3 billion it receives annually, it also receives huge loan guarantees 9loans it does not repay) and other supplemental funding.  On top of that, the trade agreement it has with the US is so absurdly distorted in Israel’s favour that declassified US government documents describe the arrangement as little more than a US$10 billion annual grant to Israel.

The colonies have been financed by a 50-60 billion dollars laundered from the US.  There are dozens of documents from the DOJ and Treasury documenting this racket.

In spite of all this, poverty is rampant in Jerusalem and many parts of Israel, especially among the 2nd and 3rd class Mizrahi and Serphardic Jews.
In terms of corruption, Israel ranks as among the most corrupt in the Western World.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-ranks-among-western-world-s-most-corrupt-countries-1.321251

In terms of the Global Peace Index (GPI) American and Israeli rankings are miserable and Israel’s popularity recently came in around the same as North Korea’s

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/11/15/israeli-and-american-rankings-on-violence-and-corruption/

Israeli has never made any concessions BTW.
There will be no peace in the general Middle East until Israel gives up its expansionist land grabs, accepts a two state solution and as Meir Dagan suggested, accept the Arab Peace Initiative, which has been sitting on Israel’s desk since 2002.

Time is running out for Israel.  As Clinton said, the status quo is unsustainable.

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

Walterbard,

What you can’t come to terms with is the reality that someone else knows their facts betterthan you do and your time worm Hasbara doesn’t cut it anymore. 

>> Just go to ocean parkway in Brooklyn Ny and ask some of the shephardic Jews what happened to their grandparents in Arab countries.


The whole stpory about the mass expulsion of Jews after 1948 was debunked in Haaretz in an articel antitle “Hitching a ride on the magic carpet”

It tells the story about how Yaakov Meron from teh World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) came up with the idea of “Jewish refugees” and how these calism fo Jewish refugees from arab countries infuriated many Mizrahi Israelis who defined themselves as Zionists.

As early as 1975, at the time of WOJAC’s formation, Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu declared: “We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations.”

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: “I don’t regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=329736

>> Most of them have relatives in Israel.

So why don’t they live in Israel?

I have been to Israel and met with Sperpahrdic Jews who told me stpories fo their exploitatino first hand, havign been lured to Israel under promises of a better life.  Many of them regretted the move.
 
>> But there’s no slavery.

Israel is one of the word’s hubs of sexual slavery.

>>  They can buy property from Jews.

No they can’t because the can’t affod them and they are not allowed to build on more than 3% of land.

>> But in Arab occupied Judea and Samaria anyone who sells to a jew is killed. That’s a fact.

Rubbish. No one has ever been killed for selling land to jews.

>>  There is a 20% arab population in Israel.

The 20% remain out dumb luck and detemination not to be driven from their land, unlike the 750,000 Palestinians that Isael expelled.

The ethnic cleasing of Israel is fact and has bee documented by many Israeli historians. There are moutains of documents detailign the ethnic cleansing of Lydda & Ramla etc. On July 24, 1948 the Mapai Center held a full-scale debate regarding the Palestinian Arab question against the background of the ethnic cleansing of Ramla and Lydda. The majority apparently backed Ben-Gurion’s policies of population transfer or ethnic cleansing.

Shlomo Lavi, one of the influential leaders of the Mapai party, said that:

“the ... transfer of the [Palestinian] Arabs out of the country in my eyes is one of the most just, moral, and correct that can be done. I have thought of this for many years.”

When the First Truce ended, Operation Dani headquarters (near Ramle and Lydda) informed the Israeli General Staff on July 10 1948:

“a general and considerable [civilian] flight from Ramle. There is great value in continuing the bombing.” During the afternoon, the headquarters asked the General Staff for renewed bombing, and informed one of the brigades: “Flight from the town of Ramle of women, the old, and children is to be facilitated. The [military age] males are to be detained.” (Benny Morris, p. 204)

Yitzhak Rabbin, the commander of Operation Dani in Ramle area, communicated the following explicit orders at 1:30 PM on July 12, 1948 to Yiftah Brigade (see above quote):

“1. The inhabitants of Lydda must be expelled quickly without attention to age. They should be directed towards Beit Nabala. Yiftah [Brigade headquarters] must determine the method and inform [Operation] Dani HQ and the 8th Brigade.
2. Implement immediately.” The order was signed “Yitzhak R[abin].” A similar order, concerning Ramle, was apparently communicated to Kiryati Brigade headquarters at the same time. (Benny Morris, p. 207)

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By walterbard, June 10, 2011 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

It’s hard not to ramble when faced with such a wide range of lies and half truths. I’m not wasting my time with a point by point rebutal from a antiIsraelfanatic like you. Hopefully, readers of this section will do their own research and see who is closestto the truth.

Some last remarks You said,
“False.  I already debunked this lie.  There were no mas expulsion of Jews.  Mizarahi and Seprahirdic Jews made Aliyah to Israel and became the new slave labor force”

No sir, you are a phony and a liar. What slave labor? Just go to ocean parkway in Brooklyn Ny and ask some of the shephardic Jews what happened to their grandparents in Arab countries.
Most of them have relatives in Israel.
There is no slave labor. 

In fact go to Israel and see for yourself.I did
Is it a paradise? Far, far from it.

But there’s no slavery. Is their discrimination against Arabs. Yes, against those who call for destruction of Israel. But they’re not killed.
They’re still protected by Israeli law. They
can buy property from Jews. But in Arab occupied
Judea and Samaria anyone who sells to a jew is killed.
That’s a fact.

One thing you said is the truth. There is a 20% arab population in Israel. That’s because they were not forced out in 1948 unlike the jews in arab countries who were forced out and now have very few remaining.
So much for the ethnic cleansing lie. It was the
Arabs who wanted to push the Jews into the sea.
Again, read the newspaper quotes from that era.
The NY Times quoted Arab diplomats of that time
accurately and what was said on Arab radios.
Some more “rambling.” as you call it.  It was the Arabs who rejected the 1947 UN partition not the Jews
Incidently, how is it that journalists critical
of Israel such as Hedges and Friedman can travel freely in Israel but in Gaza must be accompanied by a a Hamas official. What are they hiding.
Mass murder and oppression of their fellow
Jordanian Arabs who call themselves Palestinians?

Anyway Shalom

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By Go Right Young Man, June 10, 2011 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

For about the last half-century, globalization has passed most of the recalcitrant Middle East by — economically, socially and politically. The result is that there are now few inventions and little science emanating from the Islamic world — but a great deal of poverty, tyranny and violence. And rather than make the necessary structural changes that might end cultural impediments to progress and modernity — such as tribalism, patriarchy, gender apartheid, polygamy, autocracy, statism and fundamentalism — too many Middle Easterners have preferred to embrace the reactionary past and the cult of victimization.

At one time or another, they have welcomed all the bankrupt ideologies that traditionally blame others for prior self-induced failure: fascism, communism, Baathism, Pan-Arabism and, most recently, Islamic fundamentalism.

When there is high unemployment, corruption, zero economic growth, endemic illiteracy and no freedom, mullahs, dictators and jihadists of the Middle East always seem to fault the ancient colonial power — Britain, France or Italy (though rarely Islamic Turkey) — that supposedly set them back over a century ago. Or they try blaming the omnipotent United States whose oilmen developed the riches of the Gulf and whose military has saved Muslims from Kosovo to Kuwait .

But above all, for decades leaders like Gamal Nasser, Ayatollah Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, Yasser Arafat and Osama bin Laden have scapegoated tiny Israel .

It is the closest Western bogeyman, and its Holocaust survivors transformed a part of desert into a technologically sophisticated Western state. Israel ‘s astounding success is a constant irritant to many nearby Muslims, representing the infidel’s ability to fashion a prosperous Middle Eastern society without oil revenues under democratic auspices.

Victimization turns out to be the real creed of the Middle East , uniting disparate Shiites, Sunnis, dictators, theocrats and terrorists. “They did it to us” offers an easy explanation of why Islamic states are now weak and offer little hope to millions of their poor, who, ironically, emigrate to the much pilloried West by the millions.

American cash aid, Israeli concessions, windfall petrol profits and, most of all, appeasement of radical Islamists can do nothing to alleviate these perceived grievances.

Instead, there will be no peace in the general Middle East until Iranians and Arabs have true constitutional government, free institutions, open markets and the rule of law. Without these reforms, they will continue to fail, seeking easy refuge in the shreds of mythical ancestral honor — and this pathetic neurosis of blaming nearby Israel for the loss of it.

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

>> Hating Jews, on racial as well as religious grounds, is as old as the Roman destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

Nit learly as old as racism and xenophobia, which is eating away at Israeli society like a cancer.

>> Those who randomly shoot Jews for being Jews — whether at a Jewish center in Seattle or at synagogues in Istanbul — are for the large part Muslim zealots.

What about settlers who set fire to Mosques and murder Palestinians?  Those settlers are trespapsser after all, living in illgela settlements.

>>  Yet privately they know that we do not see violent Jews shooting Muslims in the United States or Europe.

Nor do you see violent Mulisms shooting Jews in the United States or Europe, but Israelis kill Palestinians at a rate of one every 2 days.

>> Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promises to wipe Israel “off the map.”

He has never said anything about wiping Israel off the map.  Even Ehud Barak said that if Iran were to acquire nukes, they would not fire them at Israel because they are not crazy.

Furthermore, as Sy Hersh reported last week, the latest NIE confirms that Iran is not even tryign to acquire nukes.

>> The state-run, and thus government-authorized, newspapers of the Middle East, slander Jews in barbaric fashion.

Meanwhile in Israel, rabbis call for Arabs to be anihiltaed.

>> Yes, finding and inventing reasons for hating Jews is an ancient practice.

Not as acnient as racism, which Israeli society and leaders have perfected.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 10, 2011 at 5:24 am Link to this comment

Hating Jews, on racial as well as religious grounds, is as old as the Roman destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. Later in Europe, pogroms and the Holocaust were the natural devolution of that elemental venom.

Anti-Semitism, after World War II, often avoided the burning crosses and Nazi ranting. It often appeared as a more subtle animosity, fueled by envy of successful Jews in the West. “The good people, the nice people” often were the culprits, according to a character in the 1947 film “Gentleman’s Agreement,” which dealt with the American aristocracy’s social shunning of Jews.

A recent third type of anti-Jewish odium is something different. It is a strange mixture of violent hatred by radical Islamists and the more or less indifference to it by Westerners.

Those who randomly shoot Jews for being Jews — whether at a Jewish center in Seattle or at synagogues in Istanbul — are for the large part Muslim zealots. Most in the West explain away the violence. They chalk it up to anger over the endless tit-for-tat in the Middle East. Yet privately they know that we do not see violent Jews shooting Muslims in the United States or Europe.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promises to wipe Israel “off the map.” He seems eager for the requisite nuclear weapons to finish off what an Iranian mullah has called a “one-bomb state” — meaning Israel’s destruction would only require one nuclear weapon. Iran’s theocracy intends to turn the idea of a Jewish state on its head. Instead of Israel being a safe haven for Jews in their historical birthplace, the Iranians apparently find that concentration only too convenient for their own final nuclear solution.

The state-run, and thus government-authorized, newspapers of the Middle East, slander Jews in barbaric fashion. “Mein Kampf” (translated, of course, as “Jihadi”) sells briskly in the region. Hamas and Hezbollah militias on parade emulate the style of brownshirts. In response, much of the Western public snoozes. They are far more worried over whether a Danish cartoonist has caricatured Islam, or if the pope has been rude to Muslims when quoting an obscure 600-year-old Byzantine dialogue.

Yes, finding and inventing reasons for hating Jews is an ancient practice.

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By Shingo, June 10, 2011 at 5:24 am Link to this comment

You;re losing it Walterbard,
Now,  you’re simply rambling.
>> When Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria Jews were denied access to the Kotel.

False.  Israelis were denied access, but Jews from anywhere but Israel were allowed.  I knew Jews who travelled to Old Jerusalem in the 60’s.

>> Both Abbas and Arafat said they would not accept Jews living in “Palestine” areas.

False.  Abbas said that Jews would be allowed to live there provided they agreed to citizenship of that state.

>> Arafat said that on the Barbara Walters show.

Arafat is dead.

>> Zionist is an Arab euphemism for Jew.

Zionism has hijacked Judaism, especailly ith Netenyahu making the demand that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state.

>> That charter has never been repealed and calls for the destruction of the Jewish State and the eviction of Jews.

The Zionists already destroyed Palestinian society along with 500 villages and towns.

>> Palestinian schools teach the destruction of the Jewish state not living in peace with it one day.

Student’s answer on civics test: Death to Arabs
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4015645,00.html

>> Israel is a Jewish state not a Moslem one.

Isral has 20% Muslim population, therefore it cannot be Jewish.

Zuabi has made no statement or suported any policy calling for teh destruction of Israel.

>> So arabs are free right now. And if they ever became a majority how free will the Jews be.

As free as they were when they were last a minority, when Arabs and Jews co-existed pacefully.

>>  Let’s see, campaigns of murderous terror in every Arab country forced close to a million Jews to leave.

False.  I already debunked this lie.  There were no mas expulsion of Jews.  Mizarahi and Seprahirdic Jews made Aliyah to Israel and became the new slave labor force.

Husseini was indeed the founder of “Palestinian Nationalism, but he had no spiritual authority.  Husseini was exiled from Palestine in 1937 and never returned.

>>  How many Palestinians have starved to death in occupied Judea and Samaria.

Tens f thousands ohave been murdered by Israel.  The comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto is an obvious and unavoidable one. 

>> In fact the standard of living in occupied Judea and Samaria has never been higher than it is today.
False. 

Poverty in the West Bank is worse that Gaza. The WB economy has been decimated by Israel and erlies entirely on foreign aid.

>>  Israel also left Gaza and abandoned the settlements only to have rockets fired at civilians living in Israel.

False.  Israel fired 7,700 shells into Gaza betwen September of 2005 and May 2006. Then as Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar documented in their book, “Lords of the Land”:
“the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future.”

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By Go Right Young Man, June 10, 2011 at 5:01 am Link to this comment

walterbard, - “When any Arab living in East Jerusalem can travel to Mecca and back we can all then look more closely at other apartheid examples.”

-

Ask a Jew hater to stand in the lobby of the Corinthian, Tripoli’s only Western hotel, and speak of “separateness” of cultures.  After he or she has done that, ask that same racist Jew hater to walk the streets of Tehran and Damascus wearing a yarmulke.  Or try, just once, traveling thru Mecca.

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By walterbard, June 10, 2011 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

“When any Arab living in East Jerusalem can travel to Mecca and back we can all then look more closely at other apartheid examples.”
When Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria Jews were denied access to the Kotel. Moslems do have access to the Dome.Both Abbas and Arafat said they would not accept Jews living in “Palestine” areas. Arafat said that on the Barbara Walters show. Jewish was deliberately mistranslated
into Zionist.  Zionist is an Arab euphemism for Jew.  The Palestinian their National charter of 1968. That charter has never been repealed and calls for the destruction of the Jewish State and the eviction of Jews. Palestinian schools teach the destruction of the Jewish state not living in peace with it one day.
“Zuabi is not anti Israel.” Nonesense. While enjoying democratic rights in Israel to vote and hold office she works to undermine it. Israel is a Jewish state not a Moslem one. She wants
to destroy the foundation on which Israel was founded, the Israel which allows her to run for the Knesset Moslems are free to worship in Israel unlike minority religions in arab countries.
“Only free while Arabs are a minority” So arabs are free right now. And if they ever became a majority how free will the Jews be. Let’s see, campaigns of murderous terror in every Arab country forced close to a million Jews to leave. Slaves don’t vote, your claim that Palestinians are slaves is rubbish.
Yassir Arafat called Amin Huysani (the Grand Mufti from 1922 to 1936) the spiritual and political founder of “Palestinian Nationalism. Husyani spent WW2 in Nazi Germany and was a personal friend of Heinrich Himmler. In 1943 on Himmler’s request the founder of Palestinian nationalism formed the Hanser battalion of the Waffen SS, a group of Moslem misfits and they killed hundreds of thousands of Jews Serbs and antiNazi moslems in the Balkans. How many Palestinians have starved to death in occupied Judea and Samaria. Your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto is vicious nonsense. In fact the standard of living in occupied Judea and Samaria has never been higher than it is today. Israel built about ten settlements in all of the Sinai. It abandoned them and even forced some
settlers to leave when the peace treaty was signed.  Israel also left Gaza and abandoned
the settlements only to have rockets fired at civilians living in Israel.

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By diamond, June 10, 2011 at 1:07 am Link to this comment

“It’s interesting that an Arab man from Samaria can marry a Jewish woman and immigrate into Israel.  But that same man cannot marry an Egyptian or Jordanian and immigrate to Egypt and Jordan.”

But a Palestinian man cannot marry a Jewish woman and live in Israel, especially if he has papers proving that he owns land in what is now Israel and a Palestinian woman cannot marry a Jewish man and live in Israel. And needless to say a Jewish Man and a Palestinian man can also not marry and live in Israel. Your attempt to prove that Israel is the fount of all justice and tolerance is ludicrous and quite sickening to anyone who knows how unjust and segregated Israeli society really is. It’s the same old story: you expect me to believe you and not an Israeli peace activist who is the son of an IDF general - and why would I? Knowing how you’ve twisted every fact you’ve ever put on a computer screen and having myself read widely from many different sources including Israeli ones.

“‘Racist’ marriage law upheld by Israel”
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem 2006

“Israel’s High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses.  The judges voted by six to five not to cancel a four-year-old amendment to the Citizenship Law which outlaws “family unification” in Israel between Palestinians and Arab citizens of Israel. It was passed as a one-year emergency measure in 2002 on the ground that it was needed to protect Israeli security. But the amendment, described yesterday by the Knesset member Ran Cohen, of the left-wing Meretz party, as “rooted in racism”, has been renewed every year since then.

Mohammed Barakeh, a prominent Arab Knesset member on Sunday said the ruling “gives racism a shady alibi.” He added: “The fact that the ruling was opposed by several of the judges is a ray of light that does not illuminate the darkness of the court’s decision and the Knesset’s legislation.”

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 9:33 pm Link to this comment

>> You can’t even come with a link that will support your damn posts!!!

Of course he can’t Robert.  These guys have become fat and lazy over the last 4 decades, becasue until recently, their BS has never been challenged.  Now that they have to work for their Hasbara, theynot coping.

Thanks for the kind words BTW.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

>> They never had a country, to begin with.


Neither did Zionists until 1948.

>> Any occupied land is NOT occupied land when it is the result of a war started from that territory. International law.

False. Under no circumstances is land aacruired by violence legitimate, which explains why the IDF is there now occupying it.

>>  And even though its not a question of Israel resigned to 2 states, pal’s do not want a state for Israel.  Imagine !

In your imagination yes.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

>> “Apartheid,” the Dutch-Africaans term for separation, was the social order of the
former South Africa. It meant exactly that.

It means segregation, nothing more, and segregation is indeed the reality in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/segregation-of-jews-and-arabs-in-2010-
israel-is-almost-absolute-1.321728

 Of course, if you want to insist that apartheid specifically refers to “the social order of
the former South Africa”, the you can’t apply it to any Arab society either.

>> The Black majority of the nation and the so-called Colored were kept strictly apart in
all aspects of life. 

As is the Arab majority in Palestine.

>>White domination over the native population was mandatory.

As is the case in Palestine.

>> For instance: Non-Whites had to carry a “passbook.” Passbook infringement could
lead to deportation to one of the Bantu “homelands.”

Arabs and Jews carry ID papers identifying them as Jews or Muslims. Heavy penalties
apply for non compliance.

Arabs in the West Bank are threatened with deportation to Gaza.

>> Blacks and Coloreds were being kept from a wide array of jobs. 

Same in Israel, where Arabs are kept from high paying jobs and fired for speaking Arabic
at work.


>>Black-White sex was a serious jail-time criminal offense. 

Israel imprisoned an Arab man for rape because he Sid not disclose to his partner that
he was an Arab.

>> Whites enjoyed free education until graduation. Not so for Blacks, whose education
was strictly limited by the oppressive “Bantu Education Act.”

Israel writes the curriculum for Arab schools which erases Arab history of the region.
Arabs in East Jerusalem are not allowed to leave to study abroad.

>>By law, no mixed sports were allowed.

By default, mixed sports are discouraged on Israel.

 And that is only a partial and small list of the many abusive impediments that non Jews
suffer under the Israeli apartheid.

To deny is woefully ignorant.  When any Arab living in East Jerusalem can travel to
Mecca and back we can all then look more closely at other apartheid examples.

>> No blockade or regime of sanctions could have prevented the building of hospitals,
schools, job creating industrial centers, trade centers, civic institutions or institutions of
self-governance.  

That is precisely what the blockage of Gaza is doing. How do you build  
anything without cement, and what good are they when they are bombed?

>> Arabs, including wealthy notables such as Yassir Arafat, have, for decades,
intentionally kept these people horrendously poor.

What keeps people poor is when their livelihood is destroyed, which Israel has done.
 
>>At the same time not a single Arab state has allowed immigration out of Judea or
Samaria. In fact it is strictly forbidden.

According to whom?

>>. Arabs have kept Palestinians incarcerated in abject poverty as symbols of a cause.
For 60 years!

I didn’t know the IDF was an Arab force or that Arabs were building settlements or
blockading Gaza, or demolishing homes, or evicting Palestinians, let alone murdering
them by the thousands. 

I mean, a society would have to be dysfunctional not to flourish under such favorable
conditions right?

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

 
>>. Almost all Christians in Judea and Samaria have had to leave because of Moslem
prejudice

Rubbish. They left because of Israel’s murderous military occupation. Remember that
many of the  were ethnically cleansed too.

>>And the treatment of Coptic christians in Arab countries?

You mean at the hands of Mubarak’s thugs?

>> You turn truth on its head.

And what’s with Haredim Jews spitting on Christians in Jerusalem? 

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

>> The Rogers plan was rejected by Israel because Egyptrefused to formally recognize
Israel. 

Your argument doesn’t hold water. Israel didn’t take the Sinai to gain recognition,
because like the West Bank, they began building settlements.

The recognition argument was a stonewalling tactic.

The only reason Camp David came about was because Israel knew Egypt could thwart it
- remember that Israel escaped defeat in 1073 because of Nixon.
 
Syrian was never going to invade Northern Israel.

They were regrouping and massing their tanks because they knew Israel has their sights
set on the Golan.

Egypt never tried to invade Israel.

>>  Just read newspaper accounts of the fighting.

Like I keep reminding you,newspapers reports are no proof of anything.

>> Your attempts to prove Israel an apartheid state is a classic example of cherry
picking.

Yes, cherry picking the abidance of evidence if you will.

>> Egypt at first was reluctant to beyond the range of their SAM missles 

That was after Israel attacked, and no, they never tried to invade Israel. They wanted
the Sinai back.

>> Your attempts to prove Israel an apartheid state is a classic example of cherry
picking.

Picking cherries is easy they are in abundance.

 Zuabi not anti Israel. Israel is her home.

>> Free elections where Arabs can form political parties and run for office.

Only free while Arabs are a minority.

>> How many Palestinians living in occupied Judea and Samaria could express an even
mildly sympathetic view of Israel and remain alive. 

How many Jews on the Warsaw Ghetto expressed a sympathetic view of Nazi
Germany?

>> Abbas has already said there would be no Jews living in Palestinian (Judea and
Samaria) . 

False. Abbas said he would accept no Jews as part of a multinational peace keeping
force in Palestine.

He said Jews would be welcome as citizens of Palestine.

BTW. Judea and Samaria no longer exist.

>> Israel actively flew Ethiopian Jews into Israel by the hundreds 

And those Ethiopians claim they are treated horrifically in Israel.

>> Almost a million Jews were forced out of all Arab countries,

False. That trope was a publicity stunt to support the false claim that an equitable
population transfer took place. The vast majority were lured to Israel or made Aliyah. No
Mizrahi or Serphardic Jew considers themselves a refugee.

Ben Gurion wrote in his diaries that he considered them uneducated, promote, unclean
and ignorant of Jewish culture, prayer and non conversant in Hebrew; however, they
would be useful to inflate Israel’s immigration numbers and provide cheap labor.

Slave labor from day 1. Talk about apartheid!

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By Go Right Young Man, June 9, 2011 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

“Apartheid,” the Dutch-Africaans term for separation, was the social order of the former South Africa. It meant exactly that. The Black majority of the nation and the so-called Colored were kept strictly apart in all aspects of life. White domination over the native population was mandatory. For instance: Non-Whites had to carry a “passbook.” Passbook infringement could lead to deportation to one of the Bantu “homelands.” Blacks and Coloreds were being kept from a wide array of jobs. Black-White sex was a serious jail-time criminal offense. Hospitals and ambulances were strictly separated. Whites enjoyed free education until graduation. Not so for Blacks, whose education was strictly limited by the oppressive “Bantu Education Act.”

By law, no mixed sports were allowed. Park benches, swimming pools, libraries, and movies were strictly separated. Blacks were not allowed to purchase or imbibe alcoholic drinks – etc, etc, etc. And that is only a partial and small list of the many abusive impediments that non-Whites suffered under the South African apartheid regime.

To tar Israel with that kind of brush is either utterly malicious or woefully ignorant.  When any citizen of world can travel to Mecca we can all then look more closely at Israeli, or Japanese, or Serbian “separateness”.

-

Palestinians have been surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita (Arab) nations on the planet for decades. No blockade or regime of sanctions could have prevented the building of hospitals, schools, job creating industrial centers, trade centers, civic institutions or institutions of self-governance.  Nothing could have prevented these things but a profound absence of will and desire.

Arabs, including wealthy notables such as Yassir Arafat, have, for decades, intentionally kept these people horrendously poor. At the same time not a single Arab state has allowed immigration out of Judea or Samaria. In fact it is strictly forbidden.

We can all disagree on the steps to making peace. But we should agree to call things what they are. Arabs have kept Palestinians incarcerated in abject poverty as symbols of a cause. For 60 years!

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By Robert, June 9, 2011 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment

walterbard...that zionism’s harness is too tight around your infected skull…loosen it up a bit, it might help your blurred vision.

Your posts are a total joke & lies! That is about all. You & Howard are in same category.

You can’t even come with a link that will support your damn posts!!!

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By walterbard, June 9, 2011 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

A few more points. Almost all Christians in Judea and
Samaria have had to leave because of Moslem prejudice even though many of them were anti Israel. And the treatment of Coptic christians in Arab countries?
Even after the so called democratic spring there
have riots against Coptics.
You turn truth on its head.

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By walterbard, June 9, 2011 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

No Shingo your facts are cherry picked.

The Rogers plan was rejected by Israel because Egyptrefused to formally recognize Israel. When Egyptdid agree subsequently at Camp David Israel
withdrew from the Sinai. Yes, invading Northern Israel was the goal of Syria in 1973.
They were regrouping and massing their tanks but never were able to break through.
Egypt at first was reluctant to beyond the range of their SAM missles but they
eventually tried and were crushed. Just read newspaper accounts of the fighting.
Your attempts to prove Israel an apartheid state is a classic example of cherry picking.

The virulently anti Israel Arab woman Haneen Zuabi was elected into the Knesset.Tthat fact alone rebuts most of your assertions. Free elections where Arabs can form political parties
and run for office.
How many Palestinians living in occupied Judea and Samaria could express an even mildly sympathetic view of Israel and remain alive. Abbas has already said there would be no Jews living in Palestinian (Judea and Samaria) . But I
suppose that’s not apartheid by your standards. Israel actively flew Ethopian Jews into Israel by the hundreds and you desperately try to find fault. Almost a million Jews were forced out of all Arab countries, 600,000 settled in Israel, they were not confined for years in refugee camps as werethe so called Palestinians in Lebanon and Jordan.
Talk about apartheid

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

These are strange times GRYMan,

And you are one strange individual.

>> Perennially beleaguered Israel, for instance, was hit the entire summer of 2006 with rockets from Lebanon and Gaza, as the world watched and kept score in an absurd new game of proportionality

I already debunked this lie a while back GRYM, when you were reduced to incoherent rants about the topic, but you seem intent on revisiting it.

In the case of Lebanon, Israel started a war with Lebanon and the rockets from Lebanon only started after Israel began bombing southern Lebanon.

In the case of Gaza, there was a 5 month ceasefire in place until Israel violated the ceasefire on November 4th (the day of the US elections), killing 6 Palestinians.  A recent Wikileaks document revealed that Israel had planned the attack long in advance, not because of any rockets, but because the Israeli leadership as concerned that Hamas were benefiting politically from the ceasefire and the calm.  They opted for a military option to cut off Hamas at the knees, so broke the ceasefire to start the conflict.

Israel was to be blamed because it broke the ceasefire, ignored calls for a return to a ceasefire and started a war that it had planned well in advance.

In the case of Hezbollah, Israel responded to a cross border skirmish by starting a war.  This was the conclusion of the Winograd Commission Report.

The 2006 confict had nothing to do with the ran conference on the Holocaust.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has NEVER called for the destruction of Israel.  That lie was debunked long ago and the only side making threats has been Iran -  as they did last week.

While Israe’s success is to be admired, none of the Arabs states are concerned about that. After all, Israel’s success is largely born of the biggest aid program in the world thanks to the US.

Sheikh is absolutely right that the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts in the ME.  While he is mistaken for believing that Israel alone stands in the way of democracy in the ME, he has a point.  When Mubarak was overthrown, the 2 states that stood shoulder to should in support of him was Saudi Arabia and Israel.

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By Robert, June 9, 2011 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

By Maani, June 9 at 2:22 pm

Robert:

“I have rarely seen a more textbook case of confirmation bias in my entire life.  I could (but will not, because someone else did on a different thread) provide just as many posts supporting the claims that (i) Egypt DID attack first in 1967, and (ii) the Liberty was providing information to the Arabs on Israeli troop strength, positions, etc. - i.e., playing both sides against each other.  Israel found out that the intelligence beinf gathered by the Liberty was being used against them, and attacked the ship (knowing full well it was an American vessel) because by providing info to the Arabs, it became a “hostile” presence.

~~~~~~~~~

Maani…you are entitled to your opinion, but I totally disagree with your above post. I must say that your boot prints are transparent on this matter & I can see from which camp they came from & which one they are headed to.

I believe our American Navy personnel/Sailors who were on the USS Liberty.

BTW, go ahead and post your “unbiased confirmation” regarding your two above claims. You seem to think that they are credible…!!!

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By Go Right Young Man, June 9, 2011 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment

These are strange times.

Perennially beleaguered Israel, for instance, was hit the entire summer of 2006 with rockets from Lebanon and Gaza, as the world watched and kept score in an absurd new game of proportionality: Israel was to be blamed because its hundreds of air strikes against combatants were lethal, while Hezbollah was to be excused for shooting off thousands of rockets aimed at civilians because of its relative incompetence.

Why do I choose 2006 to write of today? That was the summer Iran hosted an international conference on Holocaust denial. The gathering was as bizarre as a bar out of Star Wars, a collection of every crackpot anti-Semite the world over, all there for a scripted, tightly controlled hatefest advertised as a “free” exchange of ideas unknown in Europe.

-

The surprise is no longer that the cretin Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calls for the destruction of Israel, but only that his serial threats have still not become banal. In any language, there can be only so many synonyms and idioms for “wipe-out” and “vanish,” yet Ahmadinejad always finds some fresh way to express his fundamental desire.

The real problem is that Israeli success, and the resulting sense of failure in the surrounding Arab world, fuels much of the rabid hatred. Many of us have been writing exactly that for years and have been dubbed novices — and worse — who don’t understand the complex undercurrents of the Middle East.

I offer an excerpt from the recent statements of the Palestinian-born Al-Jazeera editor-in-chief, Ahmed Sheikh, who granted an interview this month with Pierre Heumann, the Middle East correspondent of the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche. He is not a mere propagandist, but a keen and influential observer of the current Arab temperament.

  Sheikh: In many Arab states, the middle class is disappearing. The rich get richer and the poor get still poorer. Look at the schools in Jordan, Egypt or Morocco: You have up to 70 youngsters crammed together in a single classroom. How can a teacher do his job in such circumstances? The public hospitals are also in a hopeless condition. These are just examples. They show how hopeless the situation is for us in the Middle East.

  Heumann: Who is responsible for the situation?

  Sheikh: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

  Heumann: Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

  Sheikh: I think so.

  Heumann: Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

  Sheikh: The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

  Heumann: In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

  Sheikh: Exactly. It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.

How strange that Mr. Sheikh, if for the wrong reasons, has inadvertently echoed the “Neo-Con” thesis that only with fundamental reform will come Arab prosperity — a progress that in turn will bolster the “collective ego” enough for Arabs to forget an Israel that seems to “gnaw” at the Middle East.

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By Bill, June 9, 2011 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Miko,
Your father was a man to be proud of. You are not a General, but you are perhaps more courageous than he was. I can’t go home. That is the defining tragedy of my life. But, I have built a reasonably good alternative. For this reason, my heart compels me to say, “It is better to side with the Angels.” You have sided with the Angels. Thank you for your humanity.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

Apartheid in Israel

Ethiopian asylum seekers are routinely attacked and turned away from hospitals when seeking medial aid.

Ask the Ethiopians, ask Israeli Arabs, including Bedouin and Druze who serve in the Israel Defense Forces, and then decide whether we’re talking about pure, unadulterated racism, and not anything else.

Heading toward an Israeli apartheid state
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/heading-toward-an-israeli-apartheid-state-1.353942

Settlers to Ethiopian troops: Niggers don’t expel Jews
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3633163,00.html

Israel is insulting its Ethiopian Jewish community
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-is-insulting-its-ethiopian-jewish-community-1.324689

Israeli Education Ministry Approves New ‘whites-only’ Settlement School
http://www.imemc.org/article/59331

Darfur aid dollars funding West Bank settlements
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5708.shtml

Health officials in Israel are subjecting many female Ethiopian immigrants to a controversial long-term birth control drug in what Israeli women’s groups allege is a racist policy to reduce the number of black babies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrOMDZt2xeo&feature=player_embedded

Ethnic Apartheid against the Israeli Arabs
1.       93% of the land is held in trust by the Jewish National Fund for the use of Jews wherever they may be in the world.  That means the Palestinians (20% of the population) are only entitled to use  3% of the land.  No provision to accommodate natural growth.
2.       ID papers coded to differentiate Jews from Muslims
3.       Intense airport security, where all items are removed from the cases of Arabs
4.       Demotion of Arab homes
5.       Refusal of permits to rebuild them
6.       Prohibitions on Arab land purchases and the resulting overcrowding in Arab towns
7.       Re architecting roads and bridges so that only Jews can travel on them
8.       Gross neglect of infrastructure and services such a water, electricity, clinics and schools, especially in the Negev.
9.       Exclusion of Arab workers from wealth generating sectors of the economy
10.   Firing workers who speak Arab rather than Hebrew
11.   Diverting or manipulating water supplies
12.   Erasure of Arab presence and history by building parks and forests over Arab villages
13.   Desecrating a Palestinian cemetery to build a Museum of tolerance
14.   Removing former Arab place names from maps and roads.
15.   Arab school  curriculums are rewritten to remove Arab history and replace it with the Zionist history.

Ethnic Apartheid against Palestinian Arabs.
As Desmond Tutu said, the apartheid against Palestinians in the occupied territories is worse than it was in apartheid South Africa.

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By PatrickHenry, June 9, 2011 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment


GRYM,


On this day the sun came up in the East once again.  Damn those pigs, those dogs, those monkeys. - Those Jews.

Overplaying the anti-semite card which has little to do with social injustices being perpetrated upon them daily by the Israelis.

The Bill of Rights was written for everyone, not just Americans and was to be the moral compass which this nation usually fails to abide by.  Israel and Palestine are a key example.  Our foreign policy is on the wrong side morally and makes us hypocrites and the world hates us for it. 

Not our freedom, our doublestandard.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

>> ANTI-SEMITISM is an ancient derangement.

If anti-Semitism is an ancient derangement, then how would you describe the hatred of the goyim? 

Or how about these thousands of lovely white shirts in Jerusalem last week:

chanting “Muhammad is Dead!”
Spitting at a Palestinian compound
chanting “butcher the Arabs… death to Arabs… May your village burn…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Qsapnz_n4&feature=player_embedded

There is an older hatred that anti Semitism, and it’s racism, which is alive and well in Israel - and growing.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

>> I believe Jordan is 70% Palestinian ruled by an often brutal Hashemite minority.

yes, anotehr US puppet dictatorshp who is friends with Israel.

Everyone in Jordan is a Jordanian citizen.  Many Palestinians ended up in Jordan aftr they were expelled from Palestrine.

>> No Palestinian from the “contested areas”, Judea or Samaria, are permitted to immigrate to Jordan.  They are forced, like prisoners, to live in abject poverty and misery.

The areas are not contested, they acre militarily occupied, as the Israeli High Court established.  They have no reason to immigrate to Jordan seeing as they are loving in their homeland.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

>> It’s interesting that an Arab man from Samaria can marry a Jewish woman and immigrate into Israel.  But that same man cannot marry an Egyptian or Jordanian and immigrate to Egypt and Jordan.

According to what laws?

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

walterbard,

>> The only reason why the Syrian tanks didn’t descend from Golan Heights into Israel proper was because they were stopped in three tank battles.
False. 

During the 1973 Yom Kippur/Ram­adan War,  neither Egypt nor Syria attempted to “annihilat­e Israel.” No Egyptian or Syrian ground troops or aircraft entered Israel. Their military actions were confined entirely to their lands invaded and occupied by Israel during the war it launched on 5 June 1967.

The Egyptians never tried to invade Israel.

Furthremore, Moshe Dayan admitted that Israel started 80% of the battles between Israel and Syria.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

walterbard,

>> I never said Israel didn’t launch a premptive attack against Egypt after Egypt violated every agreement,  began sending troops into the Sinai, took control of the Jordian army, blockaded Tiran and announced over Cairo radio it was at war with Israel.

Israel was in breach of UNSC Chapter VI resolutions. Egypt, as a Regional Power had a right to embargo via a closure of the straits to an enemy state failing the observance of Chapt VI resolutions. BTW, there is no UNSC resolution citing the closure as a just cause for war.

3 days before Israel attacked Egypt, the head of Israeli intelligence (Meir Amit,) met with the Johnson Administration in Washington, where the US laid out their intelligence that Nasser was not going to attack and even if he tried, Israel would easily defeat him.
Meir Amit said that Israel agreed with that assessment, so whatever announcements were made over Cairo radio fooled no one.

>> The tragedy was it didn’t launch a premptive attack in
1973 when the “peace loving” Arabs launched the Yom Kippur war.

1973 was a case of Egypt giving Israel a taste of it’s own medicine and it did so after many efforts to reach an agreement.  Nearly all Arab states voiced their willingness to reach peace with Israel. Even the former President of Egypt, Gamal Abdul Nasser, swallowed his pride and accepted the Roger plan, named after former U.S. Secretary of State William Roger.

The plan called for ending the conflict in return for Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967.  As always, Israel rejected the plan, insisting on retaining some of the spoils of the war, which even Israel’s non-hostile enemies, e.g. the late King Hussein of Jordan, couldn’t accept.

Ever since the Roger plan 1969-70, numerous peace plans and initiatives have been proposed, only to be rejected, even defiantly, by an arrogant and bellicose Israel.

>> How come the so called Palestinians didn’t agitate for a state when Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria from 1949 to 1967?

1.because the Jordanians remains at the behest of the Palestinians to protect them from Israel
2.Probably because there was no ethnic clearing home demolitions or settlement building by Jordan

>> The refugee camps that the Palestinians were forced to live in were in Arab countries not in Israel.

The refugees were crated by Israel and are Israel’s responsibility

>> The moslems living in Israel were given full citizenship rights.

False.  Israeli Arabs live in apartheid as second class citizens, under racist and discriminatory laws.

Stop spouting Zionist terrorists lies.

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By Shingo, June 9, 2011 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

Walterbard,

I have go my facts straight.

The killings at at Gush Etzion were of Hangaha members, four days after the Haganah participated in the Deir Yassin massacre, where a lot more bodies were mutilated.

The Haganah were the IDF, with the Hanaganh the official militia and the Irgun, Lehi forming the commando units under Haganah command.  It was Chaim Wierzmann’s idea that they join to form a unit.

They all answered to the same command structure and they were all commanded to ethically cleanse the Palestinians.

There were no Syrian and Iraqi troops in Deir Yassin.  The victims were predominantly women and children (as is always the case with Israel).

You cannot claim that Lehi acted in retaliation for massacres they were the first top perpetrate, though it’s most revealing that you rationalise the actions of Lehi as retaliation, while condemning the killing at Gush Etzion -  which took place AFTER Deir Yassin.

Furthermore, it wasn’t just Lehi who killed unarmed civilians.  Israeli Historian, Theodor Katz revealed, that when expelling Palestinians from their villages, Israeli militias would take 10 of the youngsters in the middle of the the village and shot them to instil fear in the rest of the village.

That happened on many occasions.

>> didn’t you write that Mount Scopus occurred after Deir Yassin implying that that was revenge for the alleged Yassin massacre.  So the few civilians killed at Yassin were also killed in revenge.

So what massacre did the Palestinian carry out prior to Deir Yassin – and don’t bother with Hebron 1929, because the Zionist militias would not have waited 19 years to exact revenge.

My accounts of the events before June 1967 are part of the historical record.

News reports are proof of nothing.  It’s ironic that you should cite the NY Times.  Scan NY Times reports from 2002 and 2003 and tell us how that provides any facts as to Iraq’s WMDs?

>> The pact was signed in May, before June 4 when the war broke out. Get your facts straight.

Exactly, so that treaty was perfectly legitimate.  Do you even know what you’re trying to say?

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By Go Right Young Man, June 9, 2011 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment

diamond,

Why not try standing as an adult when making your point? Anger and petulance assures you will lose. Every time.

-

I happen to like King Hussein a great deal. Of course my personal feelings have nothing to do with the decades long prohibition of immigration from Samaria or Judea into Jordan, or Syria, or Iraq, or Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

It’s interesting that an Arab man from Samaria can marry a Jewish woman and immigrate into Israel.  But that same man cannot marry an Egyptian or Jordanian and immigrate to Egypt and Jordan.

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By diamond, June 9, 2011 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment

“No Palestinian from the “contested areas”, Judea or Samaria, are permitted to immigrate to Jordan.  They are forced, like prisoners, to live in abject poverty and misery.”

Oh, so now it’s Jordan’s fault? As I recall the King of Jordan was on pretty good terms with Israel. Even after Benjamin Netanyahu tried to have a Hamas leader poisoned in Jordan and made his majesty apoplectic with rage. Bill Clinton told Netanyahu exactly what he thought of all this and very soon an Israeli doctor was dispatched to Jordan to administer the antidote. Now, that’s power. And was the blockade of Gaza also Jordan’s idea? Who are you going to blame next for what Israel has done? The Easter Bunny? Paris Hilton? Until Israel stops spinning triumphalist myths about its history and faces that it has wronged the Palestinians and lets them have their own state there can be no peace. The first requirement for peace is recognition of past wrongs then the return of the land taken in ‘67 and a state for the Palestinians. All this waffle about Jordan is neither accurate nor helpful.

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By diamond, June 9, 2011 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

“Israel found out that the intelligence beinf gathered by the Liberty was being used against them, and attacked the ship (knowing full well it was an American vessel) because by providing info to the Arabs, it became a “hostile” presence.”

This is complete and utter bullshit. Robert McNamara and Lyndon Johnson wanted to enter the ‘67 war to support Israel but they needed a false flag operation to provide a fig leaf of cover for that support. The ‘Liberty’ was attacked by Israelis flying unmarked planes and using unmarked boats and it was done with the full knowledge and consent of McNamara and Johnson. The Liberty sent out SOS after SOS, making phone contact with another US ship in the vicinity which was soon sailing to its defense. But then the captain of that ship received explicit orders from Washington to turn back. He did so but then received further desperate calls for help from the Liberty. Again he turned his ship to sail to the aid of the Liberty but to the captain’s amazement, Robert McNamara himself then came on the phone and told him in no uncertain terms not to go anywhere near the Liberty.

The Israeli attack continued with the results that are a matter of historical fact. The ship did not, however, sink and far too many eyewitnesses survived the attack which put Johnson and McNamara in a terrible fix and meant they could not officially or militarily support Israel in the war. Now, I realize that a one eyed supporter of Israel such as yourself will not see what went on that day as being unusual but the crew of both US ships involved do not share your view. They have spoken out for years and refused to be silenced. So tell me, who do I believe: you or the sailors who were actually there that day and lived to tell the tale? And you need to give me a really good reason not to believe them because as US sailors they certainly had no reason whatsoever to make any of it up. Johnson and McNamara’s record of duplicity and recklessness in military matters and foreign policy is also a matter of historical fact.

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By walterbard, June 9, 2011 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

To Robert
Egypt and Syria didn’t attack Israel in 1973????
What garbage. The only reason why the Syrian tanks
didn’t descend from Golan Heights into Israel proper was because they were stopped in three tank battles.
But that was their plan. When the Egyptians tried to
invade Israel they went beyond the range of SAM missles which was mannned mostly by Soviet advisors. When they went beyond that line they were destroyed.

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By Maani, June 9, 2011 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

Robert:

I have rarely seen a more textbook case of confirmation bias in my entire life.  I could (but will not, because someone else did on a different thread) provide just as many posts supporting the claims that (i) Egypt DID attack first in 1967, and (ii) the Liberty was providing information to the Arabs on Israeli troop strength, positions, etc. - i.e., playing both sides against each other.  Israel found out that the intelligence beinf gathered by the Liberty was being used against them, and attacked the ship (knowing full well it was an American vessel) because by providing info to the Arabs, it became a “hostile” presence.


Peace.  (in our time…)

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By Go Right Young Man, June 9, 2011 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

Howard,

I believe Jordan is 70% Palestinian ruled by an often brutal Hashemite minority.

No Palestinian from the “contested areas”, Judea or Samaria, are permitted to immigrate to Jordan.  They are forced, like prisoners, to live in abject poverty and misery.

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By Go Right Young Man, June 9, 2011 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

On this day the sun came up in the East once again.  Damn those pigs, those dogs, those monkeys. - Those Jews.

ANTI-SEMITISM is an ancient derangement. The misnomer “anti-Semitism” — a term coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr, who wanted a scientific-sounding euphemism for Judenhass, or Jew-hatred — is particularly inane, since hostility to Jews has never had anything to do with Semites or being Semitic.

Perhaps there is no good name for a virus as mutable as anti-Semitism. “The Jews have been objects of hatred in pagan, religious, and secular societies,” write Joseph Telushkin and Dennis Prager in “Why the Jews?,” their classic study of anti-Semitism. “Fascists have accused them of being Communists, and Communists have branded them capitalists. Jews who live in non-Jewish societies have been accused of having dual loyalties, while Jews who live in the Jewish state have been condemned as ‘racists.’ Poor Jews are bullied, and rich Jews are resented. Jews have been branded as both rootless cosmopolitans and ethnic chauvinists. Jews who assimilate have been called a ‘fifth column,’ while those who stay together spark hatred for remaining separate.”

There was Jew-hatred before there was Christianity or Islam, before Nazism or Communism, before Zionism or the Middle East conflict. In March Jews celebrate the festival of Purim, gathering in synagogues to read the biblical book of Esther. Set in ancient Persia, it tells of Haman, a powerful royal adviser who is insulted when the Jewish sage Mordechai refuses to bow down to him. Haman resolves to wipe out the empire’s Jews and makes the case for genocide in an appeal to the king:

“There is a certain people scattered and dispersed among…all the provinces of your kingdom, and their laws are different from those of other peoples, and the king’s laws they do not keep, so it is of no benefit for the king to tolerate them. If it please the king, let it be written that they be destroyed.”

When the king agrees, Haman makes plans “to annihilate, to kill and destroy all the Jews, the young and the elderly, children and women, in one day . . . and to take their property for plunder.”

What drives such bloodlust? The paranoid frenzy that is anti-Semitism is not explained by what Jews do, but by what they are. They are the object of anti-Semitism, not its cause. That is why the haters’ rationales can be so wildly inconsistent and their agendas so contradictory. What do those who vilify Jews as greedy bankers have in common with those who revile them as fiendish Bolsheviks? Nothing, save an irrational obsession with Jews.

At one point, Haman lets the mask slip. He boasts to his friends and family of “the glory of his riches, and the great number of his sons, and everything in which the king had promoted him and elevated him.” Still, he seethes with rage and frustration: “Yet all this is worthless to me so long as I see Mordechai the Jew sitting at the king’s gate.” That is the unforgivable offense: “Mordechai the Jew” refuses to blend in, to be just like everyone else. He goes on sitting there - undigested, unassimilated, and therefore unbearable.

Of course Haman had his ostensible reasons for targeting Jews. So did Hitler and Arafat, so does Ahmadinejad. Sometimes the anti-Semite focuses on the Jew’s religion, sometimes on his laws and lifestyle, sometimes on his professional achievements. Under it all, however, it is the Jew’s Jewishness that the anti-Semite cannot abide.

The world’s oldest hatred endures, as obsessive and indestructible — and deadly — as ever.

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By Howard, June 9, 2011 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

4 cheers for Israel.  And right on about when Jordan held the west bank for 19 years, where was the clamor to give it to the pal’s.  They never had a country, to begin with. Any occupied land is NOT occupied land when it is the result of a war started from that territory. International law.
  Let Jordan continue to continue to take and absorb them. Jordan is 80% palestinian anyway.
  And even though its not a question of Israel resigned to 2 states, pal’s do not want a state for Israel.  Imagine !

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By Robert, June 9, 2011 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

walterbard...Where are the links/sources to your previous posts regarding your zionist rot on the USS Liberty ship? What’s the matter…can’t you post them to support your garbage!!!


Regarding who attacked first in the 1967 war…one can see below quote from my previous post. I did not say that you said Egypt attacked first.


“5 June 1967, 7:45 (all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first.”


Israel was NOT attacked during the 1973 war. The Egyptian & Syrian military attacked the Israeli army on occupied land. The sole purpose of the 1973 war was to liberate their land from Israeli occupation. No Israeli city or town was attacked.

The Palestinian refugees, no matter where they live, their root cause was zionism’s terror/massacres which resulted in about 800,000 fleeing for their safety to the neighboring Arab states.

Your zionist’s books/sources most likely leave out the facts/details. They say that there were no people living in Palestine. It was empty & the zionists turned it to a green landscape.

See below…you may recognize these peace loving zionists…and btw some of them became Israeli prime miniters:

~~~~~~~~~~~

Wanted Poster of the Palestine Police offering rewards for the capture of the Stern Gang terrorists: Menahem Begin, Yisthak Shamir & more:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/IsraeliJewishTerroristsWanted.html

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By walterbard, June 9, 2011 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

to robert

I never said Israel didn’t launch a premptive attack
against Egypt after Egypt violated every agreement,
began sendign troops into the Sinai, took control
of the Jordian army, blockaded Tiran and announced
over Cairo radio it was at war with Israel.
The tragedy was it didn’t launch a premptive attack in
1973 when the “peace loving” Arabs launched the Yom Kippur war.
How come the so called Palestinians didn’t
agitate for a state when Jordan occupied Judea
and Samaria from 1949 to 1967? The refugee camps
that the Palestinians were forced to live in
were in Arab countries not in Israel. The moslems
living in Israel were given full citizenship rights.
Stop spouting terrorists lies.

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By Robert, June 9, 2011 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

USS Liberty

The USS Liberty Timeline

Americans for Middle East Understanding


June 8, 1967, Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty. They kill 34 American servicemen, wounding 171 others. It will be the highest casualty rate ever inflicted on a U.S. naval vessel, with 7 out of every 10 crew members killed or injured.
It will also be the only peacetime attack on a U.S. naval vessel that, to this day, the Congress of the United States of America formally refuses to investigate.The facts, as known, are as follow:


5 June 1967, 7:45 (all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first. Captain McGonagle asks Vice Admiral William Martin at Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer as an armed escort and auxiliary communication center, noting that Liberty’s “self defense capability limited to four .50 caliber machine guns and small arms.” “


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-ameu.html


~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey shingo...Its good to see you back on TD. Where have you been? I haven’t seen your posts in several months. Keep up the good work & the truth coming.

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By Robert, June 9, 2011 at 6:30 am Link to this comment

Hey walterbard...Where are your links/sources to your zionist propaganda rot regarding the USS liberty ship from your previous posts? Once again…can you post a link(s) regarding your zionist lies/drivel?

Are you posting just attempting to show your allegiance to your beloved Israel and its IDF crimes?

BTW, Israel attacked Egypt first in 1967. Your beloved Israel claimed that Egypt attacked first…which was a lie…a total fabrication!!!

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