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The Critic and His Critics: Hedges vs. the Black Bloc

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Posted on Apr 7, 2012
YouTube/ebecker2000

Truthdig’s Chris Hedges and Kevin Zeese of Occupy DC spoke in Washington in early April to call on Occupiers everywhere to grow the movement through the use of nonviolent tactics.

Hedges enraged members of Occupy’s so-called black bloc contingent in February when he branded protesters willing to commit acts of vandalism and other violence as “cancerous.”

Such protesters make regular appearances at Hedges’ talks. A typical exchange between the author and his detractors appears below. —ARK

ebecker2000:

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By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

Naw, Rich. the people who get stopped are stopped not for their race but for their
likelihood to be armed with illegal weapons….....I understand the point being
raised but it ain’t zackly valid, despite the tendencies.

the NYPD is not anything that is particularly racist. I remember back to when it
really was, and it just isn’t anything like that now.

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 20, 2012 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=NYPD+racial+profiling

Are you going to ask me next for proof that the wars
in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yeman and elsewhere
are a top down imperialist agenda because you don’t
that’s a top down policy either?  I bet you think it
was just a few bad soldiers that invaded and occupied
those countries illegally?  lol.

Btw, I was in the NYC Subway yesterday (some of you
may of read this on y facebook/twitter).  There was a
random TSA/NYPD subway bag search going on as well as
Joint Terrorist Task Force guys (with the helmets and
automatic machine guns) in the subway.  So as always
when I see them, I refuse the search and also take
their picture.  This time JTTF officers approached
me.  Started asking me “who I worked for”, “where I
worked”, “what my job was”, “did I carry a firearm”,
etc..  I refused to answer any personal questions. 
It then turned into a political conversation where I
asked the officers why they were in the subway with
loaded weapons terrorizing working class people.

One officer replied: “What you don’t understand is
that the Muslim population is expanding”.  When I
tried to explain that men flew planes into buildings
on 9/11 due as a response to U.S. Imperialism in the
region his partner responded “no we we’re attacked
because Muslims are fanatics”. 

These officers did not develop these ideas on their
own. They are due to a culture of racist policies in
which they are indoctrinated to carry out.


Have a good weekend heterochromatic.

Thanks Caleb for your very good article.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

Richie—- thanks for a load of bullshit that adds nothing to Caleb’s claim..


should you care to actually say something that offers some evidence that NYPD is
a racist from the top down, I would be further amused. please attempt it.

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 20, 2012 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

Obviously I meant their job is to keep the 1% in power
and not the 99 ...but was typing so fast because I
could NOT believe that you posted there was no pattern
of brutality!

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 20, 2012 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

Well said Caleb!

Hertochromatic, NYPD is a racist organization with
racist policies instituted from the top down. 
Officers DO NOT act as individuals in their
operations.  They act according to the policies they
are commanded to follow.  Regardless if it’s stopping
and frisking 1900 people a day (mostly Black and
Latino), violating constitutional rights and/or
brutalizing and pepper spraying young white women,
when ordered to do so they will. When they put on
that uniform they are no longer individuals but part
of a collective who’s agenda is to oppress and
brutalize people of color.  That means supporting the
imperialist agenda or putting a bullet in a young
black man’s back. When they take the uniform off the
atrocities they have committed do not go away.

The Police are NOT part of the 99%. They job is to
keep the 99% in power.  They are a criminal terrorist
organization funded by the ruling class in this
country.  Period.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

——Before a single window was broken or trash can turned over, the NYPD was
brutalizing OWS activists.——


document that assertion with some dozen examples of policemen acting brutally
and without any cause.
I’ll spot you Officer Bologna….show us the pattern of brutality.

Report this

By Caleb Maupin, April 20, 2012 at 12:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

http://www.workers.org/2012/us/chris_hedges_0405/

Chris Hedges, a writer for The Nation and former New York Times reporter, spoke at the Left Forum’s closing plenary on March 18 in New York City.

As someone who was among the thousands of youth on Sept. 17 when the occupation of Zuccotti Park began; as someone who attended some of the early General Assemblies prior to that historic day; as someone who was arrested as part of the OWS Martin Luther King Day actions; as someone who is currently involved in the continuing occupation of Union Square in preparation for the May 1st General Strike, I must say loudly and clearly that you, Chris Hedges, do not speak for me.

The speech you gave at the Left Forum this year, in which you presented yourself as someone with authority and wisdom needed by OWS, said things that are the opposite of how I and many other OWSers feel.

First of all, the police brutality rained down on OWS by police departments around the country, coordinated by the Department of Homeland Security, is not the fault of the Black Bloc anarchists or any other elements inside OWS. Before a single window was broken or trash can turned over, the NYPD was brutalizing OWS activists. The blood of OWS activists has been spilled by the NYPD without pause or remorse since the beginning of these demonstrations.

By engaging in particular tactics of resistance, correct or incorrect, the Black Bloc is not responsible for the NYPD’s behavior. The NYPD has killed Ramarley Graham, Sean Bell and countless other African Americans without any provocation. They need no excuse for their viciousness. Don’t blame the victims.

In Oakland, Calif., and all across the U.S., many OWS activists are facing serious criminal charges. Why would you divide the movement by trying to label one section as “violent” and “dangerous”? Why would you aid the state in isolating some sections? Aren’t the Wall Street bankers the real criminals?

Secondly, the remarks you made about the events of 1989-1991 in Eastern Europe were way off.

When the USSR collapsed and the socialist governments of Eastern Europe were overthrown, this was a huge victory for the 1% against the 99%.

Things like the right to health care, education and employment were abolished. Life expectancy in the Eastern European countries went down by big numbers. Right now, the women of Eastern Europe, who once had paid maternity leave, guaranteed employment, and birth control and abortion on demand, are sex trafficked at higher rates than ever.

The events you described in your speech as being so glorious were simply the 1% taking control of Eastern Europe for themselves. Things for the working class have gotten worse since Wall Street recolonized a big chunk of the globe, with your confessed assistance.

I don’t want to model our movement on the events that led to economic catastrophe and mass suffering in Eastern Europe.

READ MORE AT LINK ABOVE

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By mjm, April 17, 2012 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

I,I,I,Me,Me,Me..yes, I can appreciate the experiences that render the power of some of Chris Hedges articles and books. It is diminished by the some of the condescending speech he uses to define other peoples actions. Is it really necessary to focus all this energy on a group of people that clearly are not the problem. Also if this movement is to be successful I would think you would not want to alienate people with an intellectual snobbery. If the idea is that one shouldn’t behave badly to invite more violence from the corporate state then why is it acceptable castigate people in the movement. 
  Most people haven’t had the privilege of Mr. Hedges education or his life style. Where are those people on this panel? And for that matter where are the women on this panel? People are confused and scared. The alternative to this mess is not clear. Yes most Americans seem to see the problems but have no outlet for their dissatisfaction. Less is more, less personal more universal.

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By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

Why are only lunatics posting here?

Apparently they are running the asylum now?

Or are they just running loose….?

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 17, 2012 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

Hey troy, I agree, that’s all I’ve been trying to do! I agree 100%. 

It might be worth to take this discussion to the next step. What’s the end game?  Everyone one has ideas on how to get “there from here” and we know where “here” is but what is “there”.  We advocate for a “democracy” of sorts but democratic systems suffer from relativism.  For example, what happens if the majority of people vote for racist type policies?  How is that dealt with in a democracy?  You can’t then rule by majority vote in that case.  So you need some “moral” core to decide but that commie stuff scares people right?.  Well, lets not talk about democracy, communism, etc..  Lets talk more “mechanical”.... Well what is morality?  Well, it’s what one believes is right and wrong, correct?  Well, what one believes it not always as the other believes.  So then is what is moral is then based on the aggregate sum of societies believes? (eg, voting?) But then that suffers from relativism as described above., etc..  So I would all the none mechanical types to describe how they would structure society to be moral. Are you talking representative democracy? So the “representative nodes” average out votes below them.  Perhaps a feedback loop to keep those nodes in check? What happens when the control processes break down?

I’m asking for a description of how it would work not “how we get there”, etc.. 

I’m interested in hearing everyones views here.

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By Troy Davis, April 17, 2012 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

@hetero and Richie:

What started out as a potentially worthwhile discussion has now deteriorated into a childish, “Yeah, well so is your father” back and forth of very little substance and no value whatsoever.

Put your egos on the shelf and discuss issues responsibly. It is sad when people resort to such childishness because it interferes with genuine communication and enlightenment.

As kindly as I am able to do so, I am urging you to GROW UP!

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 17, 2012 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic,

ahhh i see, then you’re a capitalist of sorts are
ya?, and a crabby one at that, must be your tightly
packed DNA (funny—haha). You believe in the “free
market” do you? Believe “it will all work out” if
left alone.  Or perhaps believe social regulations
can make a less evil capitalism? That’s like saying
evolution will just work itself out and could never
create flesh eating giant lizards. Oh wait—it did. 
Or we can control insect populations by importing
more frogs to eat them.  Wait the frogs got out of
control…lets import some snakes to eat them.  Wait
the snakes got out of control ...lets import some
squirrels to eat them…wait squirrels got out of
control…lets import some monkeys to eat them…now
the monkeys are out of control—but that’s ok come
winter they will all freeze to death and die.

Oh, heterochromatic you amuse me.  Talk about
adolescent ruminations.  In any event, my good
looking self must get back to work wink

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

I’m not a Marxist and Marx is entirely the type of wrong-headed social theorist
that your adolescent ruminations remind me of.

you may look in the glass and think yourself good-looking, but you haven’t any
real idea of where you should look.

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 17, 2012 at 3:51 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic,

I’m not sure why you keep digressing to “violent” out
bursts of name calling (heheheh—I just can’t get
enough of that one).

I’m not quite sure what you referring with regard to
syllogism since these views have been accepted and
developed since the Theory of Relativity came on the
scene. Yes, for all you anarcho-capitalists out there
IT IS A ZERO SUM GAME!  There have been multiple
papers published in the Journal of Theoretical
Politics (some of which I pasted in previous posts—
but there are more if you use “the google” you shall
find them”) as well as numerous papers written from a
Physics point of view as well.  There are a “whole-
lotta books” books as well by some very famous folks
such as John Henry Holland.  Given your name I would
assume you have some sort of medical training so I
wouldn’t think these things concepts are so shocking
to you.  Also, now that I think about it I think I
have a pretty good idea of who you are—lol, which
makes this all the more humorous.

Furthermore, unless your a Capitalist of some sort
then you probably subscribe to a “Marxist like” model
of what capitalism is and I got news for you
...that’s a mechanical view in terms of the social
relations.

I’m also not quite sure what your referring to with
the “kid” reference. Don’t let my young good looks
fool you—I’m a lot older then I look but I do get
that lot because I do look much much younger then I
am.  So—Thanks for the compliment!

Peace, Love & REVOLUTION (the real kind!)

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 16, 2012 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

Richie——you flatter yourself even as your words brand you a braying ass.


your description is defective, resting on a single premise and claiming to be a
completed syllogism.


go back to school kid, graduate and get into a college. come back in a couple of
years.

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 16, 2012 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

heterochromatic,

hehehehe—wow, that’s exactly what the Catholic
Church said about Nicolaus Copernicus!  Everyone
thought the “earth”, or in your case “humanity”, was
at the center of the “universe”, or in this case “the
system”.  Then Copernicus, me, comes along with his
“evil math and science” and describes the “system” by
“mechcanical” means.  Then he’s branded a “hertic”.

In any event,  Actually I find trying explain human
interaction in anything but physical terms is to reek
of religion, ideology and arrogance—but hey, since
we all think differently your entitled to your
religious point of views.  However, I hope you dare
not try to build a skyscraper based on religion as a
crumbling building knows not of humanity for those it
tumbles down upon.  Nor does the tidal wave
distinguish between humanity or the rocky mountains
they wash away.

I do find it rather depressing that 469 years )to be
exact) have passed and humans still seem to think
they are at the center of it all. Wow, talk about
arrogance.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 16, 2012 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

attempting to discuss and to explain human interaction strictly in mechanical
terms is simple-minded and yields little of value.

Report this

By Richie-NY, April 16, 2012 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Troy Davis,

Within the realm of system dynamics “force” is defined as “something” which can change the “state of motion”.  Where the “motion” consists of “direction”, “velocity” and “acceleration”.  As you can see there is NO concept of “violence” it it’s definition.  “Violence” is an social construct defined by ideological views.  It should NOT be included nor applied as a qualifier with regard to force.

So just to be clear “force” is anything that can change the current “trajectory” (eg, direction, acceleration) of “the system” (has no concept of violence).

So obviously “voting” is NOT a “force” (hehehe..sorry had to throw that in there).

Now, lets examine why “movement building” is also NOT a force. By “movement building” I mean: engaging in acts of organized civil-disobedience for the sake of making others want to get involved or feel bad for you, building a third party to try and influence the two party system (this includes trying to rally the OWS movement behind self-proclaimed leaders such as Zeese and/or any other particular group, dems, and various other leftist parties etc…) 

First, we here hopefully all believe in Evolution (I hope).  Evolution is a complexity based system.  Life is formed via the process of “Emergence”.  Consciousness for example is an emergent process.  Surely we are all Conscious (for the most part—some of us more than others—hehehehe).  However, all of our brains are inter-connected DIFFERENTLY yet we all have basically the same functions.  Those functions have arisen through the process of emergence. Yet the range of conclusions we all may come to given the same set of input data can be very different (eg, ideology I am left and there are those who are right).

Now if these processes where just bi-polar (which they are not) there would be two types of brains in the world “left” ones and “right” ones.  But there is not, there are million shades of grey in between.

So, “movement building” can only really achieve some localized effect (eg, in the best case you’d only get 50% of the population to subscribe to your views if brains where bi-polar but in reality you can only get a very tiny fraction).

“Movement building” is based on social constructs which change relative to the state of the system (eg, dems in power country shifts right, republicans in power country shifts left, etc..).  Thereby, destructing any localized regional cluster that may have been built up.  Adding a third party operating within the same system merely makes it even harder to try to effect change in the system.

The “cog” cannot jam up the “machine” if it is still connected to the machine.  Only, when it disengages it self from the machine can it become a problem.

So the OWS concept of “occupation” which acts outside the system and acts if the the system doesn’t exist could become a “force” that operates against the system.  This is why it’s met with night sticks and pepper spray even when people just want to sit in a park. 

So if the police ask you to move and you say no is that “violence”? If they hit you with a stick and you hit them back is that “violence”?  What about if a random mugger hit you with a stick and you hit him back to save your life is that “violence”?  What’s the difference between those physical encounters?  Nothing, unless you include social-constructs like the “police are good”, “movement building”, “muggers are bad”, etc..  The dynamics all those cases are the same and they all involve force.

Any the point is, if we want change, we need to engage the dynamics of the system with force (which has no concept of violence) and it can not be done with “movement building” or operating within the system.

Report this

By Troy Davis, April 16, 2012 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

@richie:

It seems to me you ae facetiously trying to attribute science and math to ideology and I do not see where YOUR math or science is applicable.

I also do not agree that non-violence requires “force” as you have defined it in your posts.

I think YOU need to rethink what you mean by “force” and explain yoursef more fully.  Perhaps the problem is your inability to cogently explain yourself with your posts.

Defining terms might be helpful. I think I comprehend what YOU mean by “force” but I do not agree that your interpretation of “force” applied ans non-violent passive or even active civil disobedience if valid.

You need to expound more fully upon your meaning of “force” and how it applies to human nature within the context of resistance.

Explain “resistance” and how such resistance demonstrates “force” under your definition and understanding of “force”.

What is violence if not a specific application of “force” as you define it?

What is non-violence if not a specific withholding of “force” as you define “force”.

You need to do much, much more to elucidate your point and convince me or anyone else that you are not inappropriately trying to apply scientific terms to a very nonscientific entity known as ideology.

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By Richie-NY, April 16, 2012 at 6:17 am Link to this comment

damedog,

Once again ideological views come out.  What I said was there IS NO NEED TO CLASSIFY engagements as violent or non-violent. What I said didn’t work is “movement building”.  Civil Disobedience does work but there is no reason to classify it as non-violent or violent.  We (the royal we) don’t do civil disobedience.  We “get permission” by negotiating with the police.  So people line up in front of the white house to “get arrested”—THIS IS NOT CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.  We don’t march or rally instead we get permits and have parades and festivals.  This DOES NOT ENGAGE THE DYNAMICS OF THE SYSTEM.  In fact, all it does it fold our actions into the system so they are consumed and pacified by the system.  The black-bloc recognizes this and operates outside of that structure thereby directly engaging the system.  That is the point. These parades and festivals do nothing except classify anyone who acts outside of the “peace industrial complex” as violent—thereby giving re-enforcing and giving validity to the system itself.  It’s actually very damaging to the left in this country as well as abroad.

An object in motion stays in motion until a force acts upon it.  There is no such thing as a non-violent force or a violent force.  There is just force. Yes, there are different strengths of force but there is no classification of a violent force.

To say we can change the system without force is like saying you can stop a ball rolling without imposing a force upon it. It’s just not reality.  To say we can have a non-violent force is meaningless because if you don’t get your permits and you don’t cooperate with the police they will swing their sticks as they did do OWS they will cage you in and pepper spray you regardless of how sweet and orderly you look. Regardless if you consider them part of the 99% or not.

As soon as you operate outside the system the system gets violent.  So the argument you all are giving here about non-violence is really “lets not really act outside the system” and that is the issue as lining up in front of the white house to “Get arrested” and working with the police is NOT operating outside of the system. 

As for the math—yes, math works, otherwise we would never be able to build anything and if you want to build change you need math period….

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=journal therotical policities self orgranized criticality&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.133.7547&rep=rep1&type=pdf&ei=jRqMT-reKKXX0QHQ8_iACg&usg=AFQjCNHn1T8s4IJgdZ9DytWbG0kMAExxLQ&cad=rja

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Organized-Criticality-Emergent-Biological-Cambridge/dp/0521483719

http://www.amazon.com/how-nature-works-self-organized-criticality/dp/038798738X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/186-3357795-2009833

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=self-organiziing criticality complicated complex&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http://cbpfindex.cbpf.br/publication_pdfs/RamosSassiPiqueira2010.2010_07_05_11_50_10.pdf&ei=KhSMT-iNB6nl0QHuzdTtCQ&usg=AFQjCNFADimQW89vSD6wkO7bRtyruGIFKw&cad=rja

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By RanDomino, April 14, 2012 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When you aim for a “mass movement” you’re not building a movement… you’re building a fad.  Occupy will die and we, the Anarchists, will win; because only we are trying to build a new world, rather than lazily appealing to your fucking middle-class sensibilities.

Report this

By damedog, April 14, 2012 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Richie- I did read your post, and your reply, but i’m still seeing zero science. Where is your evidence that black bloc tactics will work? You say it engages the dynamics of a complexity based system, but you don’t define how it does so effectively and why random destruction would impede it in the first place, nor why non-violence wouldn’t work in opposing it. I don’t think non-violence is meant to make the corporate state feel bad for them but to delegitimize them when they expose their heavy hand.

You also said in a reply to someone else that they didn’t understand your “terms, theories, and concepts”. How do you define these terms, theories, and concepts and what scientific validity do they actually have outside of your own opinion? You can’t claim the scientific truth without producing any science.

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moonraven's avatar

By moonraven, April 14, 2012 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

Origina of the word “gringo” are subject to dispute, but the most common myth operating here in Latin America is that it is a corruption of the word in Spanish griego, which means a person of Greek origin.

Its origin is really not part of the communicative process—which, after all, is the purpose of language.

Its USAGE is the following: 

1.  The term gringo in Mexico and Central America is a neutral term (common usage in newspaper and magazine articles, for example) which carries with it NO perjorative aspect (unlike the gringo usage of greaser, spic, beaner and wetback—all of which are perjorative terms) and refers to white people from the USA.  In the plural, in political terms, it refers to the policies of the white-dominated US government.

2.  In South America, however, the term gringo frequently MAY refer to any white foreigner (even Europeans), and is a neutral term.

Only gringos try to take offense at this usage, as they are projecting from their own colorful terms for people of color—almost all of which are highly perjorative.

Please be advised that I do not use the term gringo to label canadians of other white foreigners here in Mexico—only whites with an obvious USA accent.

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By Troy Davis, April 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

@richie:

While I find your comments interesting, I always deem them to be specious.

A “scientific and mathematically” approach might seem valid to you, but I hardly agree that given the perameters of your comments any such approach in dealing with human nature are applicable.

Furthermore, you should elaborate upon what you mean by “cooperation” and expand your understanding of cooperation within the context of human nature.

I think an examination of Native American idigenous tribal customs and practices would be a good place to start with your examination of the concept of human “cooperation”.

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

maybe my failure to grasp concepts and theories isn’t really the problem, Richie…..
perhaps Logic 101 or even first-term Physics would be of some help.


all you’ve done is is posit that zero force doesn’t deliver.


where have you shown that applying force will work and where have you shown
the point(s) at which the application of force will produce movement in the
desired direction?


have yourself a lovely week-end and re-apply later.

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By Richie-NY, April 13, 2012 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

heterochromatic, I have established such.  The problem is you don’t understand the terms, theories and concepts.  Which is a whole other problem in it’s own. Have a great weekend.

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

and again Richie,,,,,you can posit that peaceful tactics aren’t efficacious, but that
doesn’t establish that the violent tactics of the blackblockheads are the correct
ones. you can’t establish anything beyond that they’ll not necessarily not work.

you ignore the obvious observation that absurdly inappropriate and picayune
violence isn’t of a damn bit of use to anybody and is likely to enlist the majority of
the population to supporting the application of violence to the blockheads.

Report this

By Troy Davis, April 13, 2012 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

@moonraven:

Since you repeatedly use the term “gringo” to describe white people, perhaps you could enlighten all of us and explain the origins of the word “gringo”.

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By Richie, April 13, 2012 at 8:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Damedog,

You must of not read my post.  I specifically say that engaging the dynamics of the system are the correct tactics for dealing with a non-linear complexity based system.  By doing so the slightest engagement could radiate throughout the system (eg, OWS—simple model—big effects—so much so required federal government intervention). Black-bloc employees a similar tactic of direct engagement although a somewhat a different implementation. The point is the concepts of “humanity” are non-sense.  The system knows no humanity.  To assume the system will “feel bad for you” (eg, King, Ghandi) when then system murders in cold blood for it’s own comfort is laughable.  Systems do not have feelings.  The argument that “The system” is made up people and they have feelings is also irrelevant.  In a complexity based system while the parts contribute to the system the parts itself do not define the dynamics of the system.  The system as a whole define it’s dynamics.  The concepts of non-violence in terms of “making your enemy feel bad for you” have no bearing on the system.  There must be direct engagement of the systems dynamics. The classification of those engagements of “violent” or “non-violent” are irrelevant to the math.  Therefore, such terminology should not even be used by the left in this country. In fact, using such terminology helps the system promote it’s imperialist agenda and give validity to it’s false claims of terrorism. It’s actually very damaging to the movement in this country put more so very damaging to the people of the world who defend against the aggressive imperialistic beast that evolves from capitalism.

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By damedog, April 13, 2012 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

Richie- You criticize Hedges for not having a scientific basis for the tactics he wants to see in the movement, and yet you don’t provide any at all for your endorsement of black bloc tactics. Seems like hypocrisy to me.

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By Richie, April 12, 2012 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oakland Steve and Heterochronic,

First let me apologize to the list for the duplicate
post.  I first tried to post and didn’t see it appear
so thought something had gone wrong and tried again. 
Now it seems my post appeared twice.

In any event, you can twist words all you like but
what I’m advocating for is for the left in this
country to break with religion and ideology and take
a more mathematical and scientific approach. As you
can not build anything unless you can measure and
repeat the process with those same measurements.
Social “science” has been traditionally approached
from a “humanities” standpoint which is not
scientific at all as it has a very narrow scope and
puts “humans” at the center if it’s theory (much like
the “earth” was once at the center of the universe).

It’s nice to talk about a world without “force” but
no such physical reality exists—we cannot live
outside the laws of physics.  Lets take John Adams
analysis about capitalism.  He speaks about a force
called competition but that analysis is incomplete as
for every force there must exist and opposite and
opposing force.  That opposing force to competition
in the capitalist system is cooperation.  This
cooperative force is actually what’s responsible for
classes.  If you take the sand pile model, it’s much
nicer to stay at the top of the pile, therefore sand
grains at the top will form bonds with other grains
at the top to defend themselves from the swipe of the
invisible hand.  This in turn keeps other grains at
the bottom while they maintain a dominance at the top
of the pile.  In order for the top of the pile to get
higher we must either make the base narrow but this
leads to instability or we must add more grains which
is what imperialism is. 

In any event, a “peaceful transformation” in which we
“build a movement” by some linear process can not
work.  It would be akin to trying to line up all the
“like minded” sand grains in a certain section of the
sand pile while all these avalanches are occurring
hoping to build a big enough pile of like minded
grains while waves crash upon them. It’s just not
possible.  This is a very ideological view rooted in
religion. 

The only way to disrupt a non-linear system is by
engaging it’s dynamics.  Weather the engagement is
via the butterfly effect or something larger depends
on the current state of the system and where it’s
driving toward. 

To say because such an engagement of the system at
the wrong place and time could cause a police state
makes such tactics invalid is not true.  It’s akin to
saying there are terrorists who are Muslim therefore
all Muslims are terrorists.  Your statement, gives
validity to an unscientific falsehood. Therefore,
giving validity to the lies of “the system”. 

This “system” is responsible for the murder and
destruction of millions of people.  To stay, “we
shouldn’t do that or we’d face the police state” is
immoral.  As millions of others suffer the effects of
it’s “police state” via it’s imperialist wars and it
means your willing to let others suffer but you don’t
want to and one of the core reasons why mean flew
planes into buildings on 9/11.

Anyway, we are getting off track here.  My point is,
even capitalists will agree, it is a non-linear
system.  Linear approaches cannot work period. 

If you disagree then prove to me you can drive a non-
linear system in a certain direction to a given state
with linear equations and as you will find out—
you can’t.

To think that we as humans can some how live outside
the laws of physics and forces is just not reality
and is a big problem within the left in this country.

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By moonraven, April 12, 2012 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

Steve has a period.

He’s on the rag.

That’s why he is making a fool of himself in internet.

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By OzarkMichael, April 12, 2012 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

Hey folks, if you are a racist I am going to identify you as one.  Period

And moonie, you are racist. Period.

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By oakland steve, April 12, 2012 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

Richie

I applaud your courage and forthrightness in advocating the violent tactics of the Black Bloc as the way to affect meaningful change in our government and social order.  I find heroic that you’re willing to let others suffer loss of liberty (jail after conviction or in lieu of prosecution), life (murdered by police/national guard response to such tactics) and the accompanying loss of employment, family distress, and financial crises (including medical costs and legal fees).

Your admission that, “Sure, you could engage the dynamics of the system at the wrong spot and time thus driving the system into a state of mass oppression of the masses but this analysis of when and where to engage
the system is the work that needs to be done…” suggests a casualness to the potential for mass arrests (now legal if a connection to “terrorism” can be found, however tenuously), and blood in the streets if the timing of action proves faulty.

We’re heading toward a police state; an endorsement of violence hastens it.  It may be impossible to stop, but why enable it by creating the exploitable crisis that would bring it to fruition?

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By heterochromatic, April 12, 2012 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

Richie—- sounded very nice….....except that you’re totally bullshitting at the
heart of it

—- The tactics of the black-
bloc are indeed correct for dealing with a complexity
based system.——


you might try showing how that isn’t totally specious.

just because one method won’t achieve a desired result doesn’t mean a damn
thing in showing that some different approach will.

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By moonraven, April 11, 2012 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

oakland:

So long as non-whites commit genocide (egged on and financed by their white masters of course but let’s just turn a blind eye to their complicity because it’s not convenient to tell the truth)

that makes it just fine for you whites to redouble your efforts at exterminating all non-whites on the planet, right?

Gotcha.

Makes perfect gringo sense to me.

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By Richie, April 11, 2012 at 6:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The problem is Hedges and Zeese are ideologically
driven—much like the Christian right wingers are.
It’s a big problem ingrained within the left in this
country.  There is no scientific methodology applied
to their arguments.  If you look at what capitalism
is, even dating back to John Adams analysis, it’s
based on complexity theory and self-organized
criticality.  Thus allowing for the evolution of the
violent capitalist-imperialist state.  complexity
theory is a non-linear system. Whereas, the concept
of “movement building” is a linear and algebraic
process therefore is useless when trying to combat a
complexity based system.  It’s essentially like
trying to build a sandcastle on the beach right where
the waves crash onto the beach.  It’s useless.  The
only way to combat a complexity based system is to
analyze the waves and then engage the dynamics of the
system at the appropriate place at the appropriate
time which could cause massive effects to radiate
through out the system.  If you find the right
frequency you can shatter the system much like sound
can shatter a wine glass.  The tactics of the black-
bloc are indeed correct for dealing with a complexity
based system.  Sure, you could engage the dynamics of
the system at the wrong spot and time thus driving
the system into a state of mass oppression of the
masses but this analysis of when and where to engage
the system is the work that needs to be done by the
left. The linear process “movement building” is a
complete waste of time within a non-linear system and
is fruitless. Stating such frameworks as Hedges and
Zeese do shows a complete lack of understanding of
what capitalism is and frankly of how nature as a
whole works.  Their views just aren’t scientific at
all and are very ideologically driven by a religious
type framework—which is quite apparent and
acknowledged by Hedges himself in his speaking.

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By oakland steve, April 11, 2012 at 4:06 am Link to this comment

vector56, et.al.,

Why are you railing about racism in regard to this controversy about Hedges and the so-called Black Bloc?

You do understand that Black Bloc designation has nothing, zero, zilch, nil, nada to do with race, don’t you?  This nickname was given, supposedly, by the German media in 1980, to street demonstrators dressed in ski masks, hoods or other such dress (often in the color black). 

I realize that the “conversation” has sunk abysmally with name calling and great drama, but Chris Hedges’s take on the utility of violence was absolutely right on.  It solves nothing; it provides cover for the power elite to stomp the life out of the masses.

By the way, vector, your belief that white racism is somehow different from that of ...“Blacks, Hispanics and Asians [who] could impose their brand of racism on humanity they would, but in this reality it is the “White Man’s burden” to rule humanity,” let me suggest that you check out the Hutus & Tutsis (black genocide), the Indonesians and East Timor, and what the Japanese did to the Koreans and the Chinese (especially Nanking), among countless other examples, contemporary and historical, before you assume that genocide and racial hatred are the exclusive sins of the children of the European tribes.

People are capable of horrible things…and such horror has found sponsors in every race, religion, political structure and era.

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By vector56, April 11, 2012 at 3:34 am Link to this comment

“Governments, including the US, can kill us faster than we can change them by violence.  If you’re suicidal, advocate violence…you’ll ultimately succeed.”

I could not agree more with oakland steve’s statement above; what he over looked is that this “Government” he spoke of doing the killing of us are our fellow citizens: Cops, FBI, CIA, NSA, Military…

Bottom line is “We are all Racist!” The difference is that White people have the will and the fire power to impose their racism on the rest of humanity. One might assume if Blacks, Hispanics and Asians could impose their brand of racism on humanity they would, but in this reality it is the “White Man’s burden” to rule humanity. Some numbers for you Gandhi groupies; when the British Empire finally pulled out of India 30 million little Brown people were dead!

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By oakland steve, April 10, 2012 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

When you cited, on April 8 at 8:15 pm, your “Closing remark:  Next to Hedges’ broad and multi-faceted experience and his directness and clear rhetoric, these comments look pretty stupid by comparison.  Doesn’t anybody else notice that?  Doesn’t anybody care?” you said a mouthful. 

And it was just about the last sensible thing written thereafter. 

For those who can see no historical examples of successful nonviolent movements, I suggest South Africa, India, civil rights in the US, and almost all the former colonies of European powers in the 1950s and 1960s.  There was violence in spots—French Indochina, Algeria, Congo and others; but the vast majority were able to remove themselves from the hollow aegis of Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands and others, by peaceful means.

What little chance citizens have to affect their government is through a nonviolent approach. Governments, including the US, can kill us faster than we can change them by violence.  If you’re suicidal, advocate violence…you’ll ultimately succeed.

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By Richie, April 10, 2012 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hedges and Zeese are completely missing the point. 
You cannot “build numbers” in a self-organized
critical-complex system.  You can not use linear
mathematics within a non-linear system. They
obviously don’t understand complexity theory or the
capitalist system for that matter.  Hedges and Zeese
suffer from an ideological left instead of a scientific
analytical approach.  In any event, what the black-
bloc brings is direct engagements of the system
dynamics which is key within complexity theory.  (eg,
butterfly effect, etc…) Sure, there is the change
of a tornado of state violence but there is also the
change for a peoples revolution which is not possible
via linear “movement building” within a complexity
based system. The REAL WORK of the left should be
analyzing the system dynamics to know when and where
to strike in order to cause a ripple that results in
a revolution instead of preaching the ideological
non-sense that comes out of the mouths of people like
Zeese and Hedges.

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By moonraven, April 10, 2012 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Abusive racist pieceworker troll IGNORED.

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By heterochromatic, April 10, 2012 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

I don’t know a damn thing about any of you but you’re
all racists and I can prove it. I’m a crazy old goat-
boy and if I decide that you’re a racist that’s all the
proof in the world.

now my imaginary nephew will slow-cook a big bunch of
fried potatoes and I’ll then have a nap.

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By moonraven, April 10, 2012 at 10:32 am Link to this comment

Hey folks, if you are a racist I am going to identify you as one.  Period.

Your silly shell gamne of liberals and conservatives is absolutely meaningless—nobody in the US is a liberal.

Keep chasing your tail, though.  That’s what your masters want you to do.

Damedog:  I just returned to Mexico from Arizona, where I visted friends on one of the reservations.  Two more people had died at less than 50 from complications of diabetes.  This was a reservation in the Tucson area—if I had gone up to Navajoland, I would have been visiting friends in hogans off the power grid.

At least when the grid goes down, they won’t miss electricity.  Same goes for friends of mine in the native villages in mexico’s Isthmus of Tehuatepec—same conditions prevail there as when a French priest wrote a book of his travels through the area in 1850—except for the ubiquitous presence of pepsi cola and plastic white bread.

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By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2012 at 5:54 am Link to this comment

It seems that Truthdiggers have used the accusation of “racism” so often and successfully against conservatives that they cant refrain from using it on each other.

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By Psychobabbler, April 9, 2012 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

Bingo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMRo5XCKddQ

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By damedog, April 9, 2012 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

Psychobabbler- I don’t mean this in a rude way, but I read your post multiple times, read through the comments to see if you were replying to something, and re-read your post again, and I still don’t have the faintest idea of what you’re talking about.

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By Psychobabbler, April 9, 2012 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

I am curious as to how Americans (AKA Gringos) have more or less value according to our superiors. I was in Ensenada recently and all of these somewhat ridiculous grievances were absent for obvious reasons.

I would applaud you as a representative of such a sweet country if I felt that you really represented the people there (in my view).

If you have an ‘axe to grind’ then get on with it.

would you like a casino sweat heart?

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By heterochromatic, April 9, 2012 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

damedog——thanks for the clarification….. dame did
lead me to think you female and sorry for the error.


will say that I wasn’t seriously holding the notion
that you were a blogdog parent.

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By damedog, April 9, 2012 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

moonraven- You’re certainly right about the major injustices to Native Americans still taking place in the U.S- i’m half Native and my grandparents live on a reservation, there’s no urban ghetto in the U.S that compares to the poverty and despair. The third world doesn’t look much worse, and that’s not an exaggeration. However, I think you’re wrong in your comments about Chris Hedges. He does not want to tinker with the status quo or rely on his god to save him- he’s said quite clearly that movements are the correctives to our democracy and that trying to fix things through the establishment won’t work.


heterochromatic- I’m not blogdog’s mother, Damedog is a name I use everywhere. And i’m not a lady either, lol. “Dame” is short for my first name Damian.

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By IMax, April 9, 2012 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

“I’m off this infantile site.”  shock 
Moonragin berrinche - March 29

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

Since there is a perverse urge here to post in Spanish, what I can say to those folks whose denial of the truth is so thick that that the Twin Towers could be rebuilt with it and withstand any level of demolition:

No se puede tapar al sol con el dedo.

(Translation:  You can’t cover up the sun with a finger.)

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By heterochromatic, April 9, 2012 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

Davis——-Racism is a pernicious evil. You reap what you sow and white American
has sown the seeds of racism so deeply, and then cultivated and nurtured that
racism so tenderly, that no white person has any right to complain if those who
suffer from that racism, speaks truth to them about their racism.——


if you’re silly enough to offer shit such as that, you belong in a world where no
one may ever complain about a damned thing…....you’re talking tripe.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 5:27 pm Link to this comment

gerard:

I told you to go away.  Move on to some other victim to vent your deliberate denial of the genocide being waged against non-whites in the US at THIS VERY MOMENT as well as against non-whites around the planet.  Nobody is talking here about The Past except you, in your desperate attempt to cover up the present ugly reality.

If you truly believe that you have done all that you can do, WE are done here,
as I simply cannot converse with someone
that deluded and/or duplicitous.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment

imax is a one-off on this site—despite being a sockpuppet of heteronym:  He or she is illiterate in two languages, English and Spanish.

He or she was unable to read my posts in English, and now has the foolish temerity to try posting in Spanish—apparently using one of those bogus online translators, because what he or she posted made absolutely no sense in Spanish!

This is about the 4th time he or she has posted something that he believes to be an insult in Spanish which makes no sense.

The word “que” requires subjunctive verb forms.

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By gerard, April 9, 2012 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

Troy Davis and MoonRaven:  So what about moving beyond the past?  Do we just accept those trenches between us, dug by people who came before us and maintained by political and economic interests that we both loathe but which we can’t yet control and which they can’t control themselves?  Do we just perpetuate (and thereby deepen) those trenches? Tell me. What is the answer to that?  And if not, why not, and when? And precisely how?  Are we all doomed by the rearview mirror?
  Frankly, I think the entire world is looking forward toward unities that will open a far more just future for all of us. And I also think that to admit wrongs inflicted and ask for forgiveness comes first, but the other half is to be forgiven.  Otherwise, the future is impossible.
  Let’s work together!  What else is there?  Why do I insist on this?  Because I don’t see any other way, and will probably never stop trying—even understanding (as fully as I can) all the terrifying difficulties.
  During my long life I have seen so many divisions—and still that ongoing attempt to unify, and sometimes successes. Too few, I admit.  And yet, ... what else is as urgent?  As life-supporting?  As good for the human being as human?
  I insist that you and I are more alike than different. Does that belief somehow take something special away from you? Or set me apart as something worse than you?  Am I nothing more than my past history?  And you .. are you nothing more than a victim of my race’s stupid and selfish prejudices? And a victim of me because I have not been able to rid them of their prejudices even though I have tried?  Should I have waged war against them and helped to kill their children as they have been killing yours?  What are the answers to such questions?  Do you know them?  I don’t? All I can do I have done. I regret that I couldn’t do more, wishing to the contrary.  “Sufficient unto the day ...”

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

gerard:

You were challenged to do something to redeem yourself from deliberate ignorance of the ongoing genocide in the US—what’s happening NOW.

Deliberate ignorance is denial.

According to the UN Convention on Genocide, denial of same is also a form of genocide.  So your hands are very dirty.

And your increasingly hostile posts to me are a dead giveaway about just how thick your empathic wall is.

You came after me with your racist baiting.  You took some truth in the shorts that you refuse to deal with and continued to lash out at the messenger of that truth.

Go away, you are not up to the game.

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By IMax, April 9, 2012 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

Troy Davis,

There is nothing inherently racist in “White people”.  It’s you.

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By IMax, April 9, 2012 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

moonraging,

Gerard offered you a legitimate opportunity to air your mind and grievances.  You simply spat on her and told her how much you hate white people.

Drop the hate.  Enfermos que se le hace.

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By Troy Davis, April 9, 2012 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

@ Gerard:

Racism is a pernicious evil. You reap what you sow and white American has sown the seeds of racism so deeply, and then cultivated and nurtured that racism so tenderly, that no white person has any right to complain if those who suffer from that racism, speaks truth to them about their racism.

There is so much benefit “white affirmative action” that accrues to a person born white in America that even if the person does to ascribe to the systemic and inherent racism embodied within the American White Power structure, they benefit from the racism in an admittedly perverse and destructive way that it is too easy to lament the “past” racism that so many in denial claim no longer exists.

Racism is a pernicious evil,and when it becomes engrained within the system and becoming institutionalized in every aspect of life, it is a particularly virulent virus that is virtually impossible to eradicate.

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By gerard, April 9, 2012 at 3:58 pm Link to this comment

MoonRaven:  I am not going into a defensive itemization of what I stand for and don’t stand for, and what I have done or have failed to do. Since I have given you some hints, you have becomme even more insulting. Have you concluded that you have trapped one more white liberal “wimp” who deserves to suffer that more subtle form of torture,verbal abuse where scars are invisible?”
  Using the cruelties and insanities of the past to beat somebody over the head in the present accomplishes nothing except re-inflincting pain and spreading the contagion. Peace is probably to be found in more friendly territory.  Yours with sincere regrets, Gerard

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By Nadine Lumley, April 9, 2012 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Writing letters hasn’t worked.  Signing petitions hasn’t worked.  Protesting hasn’t worked.  What does Canada have left?  Look what the suffragettes had to go through in order to get the vote.  You think they got the vote by standing around being polite?  No.  They protested violently and were beaten and jailed before things changed.

The 1910 women’s window smashing campaign protest:

A hundred years ago (on Friday 18th November 1910) a suffragette deputation to the House of Commons met with a six hour onslaught of police brutality resulting in the Suffragettes beginning a huge window smashing campaign in protest.

http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/articles/75-our-history/7697-the-suffragettes-black-friday-and-the-two-types-of-window-smashing

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/archives-highlights/archives-the-suffragettes/


The Suffragettes refused to bow to violence.  They burned down churches as the Church of England was against what they wanted;  they vandalized Oxford Street, apparently breaking all the windows in this famous street; they chained themselves to Buckingham Palace as the Royal Family were seen to be against women having the right to vote; they hired out boats, sailed up the Thames and shouted abuse through loud hailers at Parliament as it sat; others refused to pay their tax.  Politicians were attacked as they went to work.  Their homes were fire bombed.  Golf courses were vandalized.  The first decade of Britain in the C20th was proving to be violent in the extreme.

Suffragettes were quite happy to go to prison.  Here they refused to eat and went on a hunger strike.  The government was very concerned that they might die in prison thus giving the movement martyrs.  Prison governors were ordered to force feed Suffragettes but this caused a public outcry as forced feeding was traditionally used to feed lunatics as opposed to what were mostly educated women.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/archives-highlights/archives-the-suffragettes/

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

We cannot talk together
and we will not get together in spirit because
you continue to support the settler
apartheid
colonial
rogue nation
that calls itself the U.S.

Genocide is not in the past.

It is NOW.

You are part of it.

If you don’t believe me, check out the poorest counties in what you call the U.S.

Then go visit one of them—Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

Then come back and tell me that it’s all in the past.

I challenge you.

It’s not in the past for any non-white person in the U.S.—not for folks shot for being black, nor for folks picked up and put into daglo fuschia for being brown, nor for folks whose life expectancy is less than 50 years because they are red and live on one of those bantustans called Indian reservations.

To me and other non-whites, there is only one thing worse than a committed redneck racist, and that’s a hypocritical racist like you.

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By gerard, April 9, 2012 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

MoonRaven:  I’m sorry we can’t talk together and get together in spirit. What happened in the past is no fault of either of us and whether we want to or not, we have to move beyond it to get to a better world somehow.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

gerard:

1.  You insulted me back, anyway. 

2.  I did not base my post about Hedge’s weakness on some fantasy of indigenous paradise, but on US history—the history of country whose founders stole indigenous folks’ land, were slaveholders and committed genocide.  Those are facts.

3.  None of the above happened to you or yours, so you came here glibly and made racist slurs against me, claiming that I am hung up on indigenous fantasies (which, precisely?) and by implication that I should learn to play nice with whites if I don’t want to be insulted on this site.

4.  I don’t accept your racist digs.

5.  You also apparently did not bother to read all of my post, as I very clearly mentioned the model of the non-violent revolution in Venezuela that began in 1994 and continues to date.  Or is that a non-no because Hugo Chavez is not white and is an “enemy” and therefore a target of YOUR government because Venezuela has the largest petroleum reserves on this planet?

6.  I gave as an example the model of the Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela, because it WORKS.  Since 1999 the Gini coefficient of Venezuela has gone from just over 5.0—where the U.S. and Mexico are now—to down there with the Scandinavian countries at just below 4.0.  And that happened in 13 years.  Poverty has been more than cut in half, while poverty in the U.S. increases every day.  Venezuela has already met most of its Millenium Goals, and it’s still 3 years until 2015—whereas the U.S. has not met any, nor will it given that the indicators are increasing in all categories.

7.  On the other hand, YOUR OWS and other “movements” have done absolutely nothing to stem the tide of poverty, inequality and bellicosity in and of the U.S.

8.  I am not angry at myself at all.  I left the U. S. 20 years ago and I will not return so long as wimps and weaklings and cynical folks pimp for patriotism, promote genocide against all non-whites on the planet to grab their resources, and contniue to pledge allegiance to a perverse syatem by voting.

9.  Find out FOR SURE?  Haven’t you seen enough evidence of the direction that your OWN white rights are going in—which is to extinction?

10. Just as a final comment, several years ago I indicated on this site and a few others that claimed to be progressive but actually pimped for patriotism and the status quo that if one or two million folks got in their cars and drove to Washington DC they could bring the whole perverse circus to a halt—but that you’d better have an agenda in mind to replace that circus once you got there.  I was ridiculed, I received absurd death threats in internet (????for WTF), I was told that you folks couldn’t afford the gas (now gas prices are consziderably higher—duh!) and that some of you might get killed (and that would be MY fault, I suppose?) when the government took repressive measures and therefore it was a bad idea.

Well, it seems to me that you have been trying to do a water-ed down version of that bad idea when you’ve occupied wall street and other venues—but without the critical mass of folks necessary to bring the perverse circus to a halt.  So what you’ve done is foolish and counterproductive—and guess what, SOME FOLKS HAVE BEEN KILLED WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CRACKED DOWN.

What you folks have done has been very insufficent, highly inappropriate to revolutionary thinking, as well as downright silly and dangerous.  You have showed weakness and cowardice.  And your government knows that you are not serious.

So why should I take the hot air you folks use to whine and pule on this site seriously?

You have done nothing. Diddly squat.

And you won’t do anything, either.  You are still too comfortable, and too lazy.

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By gerard, April 9, 2012 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

MoonRaven:  Don’t give me that “troll” bit. I am not going to insult you back.
  As to Hedges and “weakness”—My contronting you on it is based on the fact that almost universally “nonviolence” is equated with “weakness.”
(Why? Well for one reason, to discourage people from considering it seriously as an alternative to force, which by default leads to murder sooner or later.)
  Chris is taking considerable risks to support it and tries to explain and exemplify non-violence himself. “He espouses weakness,” you say,‘legality’ and the privileges of white nostalgia.”
  Well, I understand your being “hung up on” “the privileges of white nostalgia.”  At the same time, are you not “hung up on” the mixed history of indigenous nostalgia?  Which is okay by me. Everybody makes of his/her own history what they choose, and much of it they have no control over.
  Like a lot of us, you are also angry at yourself because you see the need for fundamental changes and yet apparently have no specific insights into the specifics of how to bring it about.  “Revolution” you call it (as opposed to “tinkering with the present system” (or whatever).  The word “revolution” most frequently calls to mind force that leads to more counter-force that leads to ... ? Blood, step by step.
  So please lay out in specifics some recommendations for revolution without blood that fit the need better than “nonviolent resistance” or Alternatives to Violence Programs, etc. Isn’t this precisely what Chris and others are trying to do also? If there is something else, the entire world is evidencing a huge need for it.
  Perhaps there is something else. I wish there were, especially since I myself am always trying to get out of the either/or trap by finding something creative that is beyond only two alternatives,—third or a fourth.  But ... what?  OWS is searching for it, I think, but most people haven’t got the faintest of what they are reaching for. Nonviolence seems to be the best choice we have.  And challenging
bad law in the courts is one possibility—if it still is a possibility.  Time will tell, but we need to find out for sure, don’t we?

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 11:29 am Link to this comment

heteronym/imax:

1.  Your cell has been hacked.

2.  It was not hacked by me, so it will not be necessary to thank me.

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By heterochromatic, April 9, 2012 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

moonraven===you’re a bitter, paranoid racist piece of crap and it’s not a personal
attack to say so by your standards, just an informed observation offered by way of
aiding others from swallowing your droppings.


have a nice day and kiss the kids.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

Now heteronym, who denies being a sockpuppet with Imax, answers posts directed to Imax.

If you folks believe this crapola being posted by a bunch of clones paid to post here against anyone who doesn’t kiss the ass of the US government goons is the real deal, you are even more deliberately stupid than I have thought you to be.

That, by the way, is not a personal attack:  It is a diagnosis of the disease you have.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

Gulam posted:

“America has become a monster as murderous and more
massive than the great, secular, killer empires of the
20th century. It would seem silly to assert now that good
German democrats could have headed off Hitler, once he
was in motion, with a campaign of non-violent be-ins.
Those who drive the reigning empire probably adore people
like Chris Hedges, because this kind of flightless wing flapping keeps
discontents busy and out of serious trouble.”

SPOT ON!

Someone posting here besides me who does not have his/her head in that very dark place filled with excrement.

I have even considered that Hedges is SALARIED as a US government agent, as he does his best to impede any REAL attempts to overthrow the system.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 10:42 am Link to this comment

Imax: 

Then, of course, you won’t mind if I hack your cell phone.

In the UK the journalistic idols that you apparently worship are having to pay up to the celebrities such as Hugh Grant—and others—whose phones they hacked.

And some of those journalistic hacks and hackers are in jail.

It’s silly comments like yours that make me 100 percent sure that Gringolandia is doomed and that it’s high time that my people and I started dancing to celebrate.

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By moonraven, April 9, 2012 at 10:31 am Link to this comment

gerard:

You posted: 
“moonraven:  How can I understand why, in criticizing Hedges as “weak” (or words to that effect) you seem to be advocating the continued use of the very tactics of violence, cruelty, deceit and extermination which abused, harmed and killed your own people?”

Have you turned troll for Easter, or what?

How is my criticizing Hedges as weak advocating violence?

But let me explain why I hold that Hedges is weak (and he is not the only one):

1.  Hedges, in my opinion, is weak in that he shills for nostalgia for a country that never existsed—a country that he claims to have been practically next to godliness in the writings and actions of its founding fathers.  Those founding fathers that he places on such a divine pedestal were precisely the same folks who were slaveholders, stole indigenous land and tried their worst to exterminate my people!

2.  Hedges is weak because he doesn’t advocate overthrowing a perverse political and social system, but instead advocates tinkering with the status quo and frivoloous lawsuits against the US government.  Please be advised that I use the term frivolous since the US government must give its permission to be sued—and therefore any suit brought against it with its permission is bound by definition to be frivolous and unproductive in the sense that it has no chance of prevailing!

3.  Hedges is weak because he ultimately places his faith not in the efforts of citizens to make a revolution (and not all revolutions are bloody and violent—witness one that has been ongoing in Venezuela since 1994 and which has brought power to the people and eliminated the obscene inequality of wealth distribution that is the case in Gringolandia), but on the deus ex machina that is his christian god to bail out a bunch of folks who, in my opinion, frankly do not deserve divine intervention.

If you want to emulate Hedges, or place your faith in folks like him, that’s your choice.  But one of the biggest complaints that I have against truthdig editors and many of the folks who post here is that they prefer to dupe themselves by espousing the Way of the Wimps—in the totally misguided notion that any sort of revolution is by definition wrong.  For my money, that’s foolish, and foolishness should not be rewarded with salvation.

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By Redteddy, April 9, 2012 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

@Moonraven

I just love it when people use the word revolution.  Have you ever checked its
etymology?  It means to revolve and originally applied to the motion of the
planets which indicated repetitiveness and regularity.  No wonder revolutions
come and go only to come and go again usually replacing one elite for another. 
Its the reason why the French removed an aristocracy only to install a dictator
(Napoleon).  The idea that you can have a revolution that will somehow lead to
the ‘better society’, ‘direct democracy’ the Bolsheviks so hoped for without it
descending into another class oriented, power dominated society is plain silly
idealism.  If you are an anarchist following the work of Graeber then you know
that the kind of society he idealizes are all based on homogenized, primitive
societies with low populations, not modern industrialized, highly complex
technologically advanced societies with a world wide webbed economic system. 
The kind of revolution you are speaking of can only replace one master with
another, one elite with another and in time working class people wondering
what the hell went wrong and the poor still wondering why they are hungry or
even hungrier than before.  Why?  Because it would only be a
‘revolution/revolve/repeat’.

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By Rosalie, April 9, 2012 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

I don’t think that Orwell   would have written the Occupy Wall St non violence philosophy is the weakest form of protest.  Stasi controlling tactics were used as models in all sorts of unjust ways in all sorts of experimental societies .  Moderate anarchists were needed indeed to stop them .
Beneath Mr Hedges’ adolescent
phobic posturing is a very likeable good natured man who is also a brilliantly thoughful activist and journalist . 
Historical patterns and trends   are important to learn from. Guerilla theater was advertised as fun during the anti war Vietnam days but it scared away the more conservative middle class from sensing that what the moderate liberals and conservatives were doing would make any difference .  Black blocs are needed only to verbalize the angst everyone feels for this emotional and psychological obscenity that the banks have constructed .  Imposing insensitive bad law to maintain security is creating a police state that the leftist radicals from a generation ago warned us about. We don’t need intrusive street theatrics to vent our resentments ,  we need to show the cops that good natured adults are in charge . Chaotic overcontrol by the leagues of policemen whose benevolence is questionable is not necessary to reimpose sanity to this wonderful idea .

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By spiritual_gunfighter, April 9, 2012 at 5:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris is correct. The corporate elite only knows the language of violence, oppression and subjugation. We will not beat them using the tools they have perfected over generations. The reason the cops cracked down so hard on non violent protests, is because they want us to get violent. That is the language they understand. They also know that there are 3 24 cable news outlets who want to destroy this movement as well. Every time an Occupier vandalizes a bank, that is what they will broadcast endlessly on a loop and the average disengaged American seeing that will say “yeah those anarchists had it coming”. We need numbers, what Chris said is true, we are a mainstream movement. There is no need to alienate our potential allies, with this nonsense.

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By IMax, April 9, 2012 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

I’ve recently learned that SkyNews (subsidiary of FOXNews) has defended the practice of hacking cell phones as a legitimate journalistic tool to be used when it’s in the best interest of the public.

Obviously this is illegal, however, SkyNews makes a solid, valid, point.  If it’s in the interest of the public at large hacking individual cell communications can and should be considered legitimate and, the content can and should be made public.

FOX is right.

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By afs, April 9, 2012 at 2:58 am Link to this comment

Black Bloc only wants to take violent actions when they are surrounded by hundreds/thousands of activists that want no part of their violent acts.

What Black Bloc needs to to do is schedule their own protest events for people who wish to act violently on different days. Stop showing up at protest events created by non-violent political action groups.

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By Calm, April 8, 2012 at 11:30 pm Link to this comment

I have studied this “violence” conversation quite a bit and I think Chris Hedges is incorrect.
http://www.dotandcalm.com/calm-archive/US-Justice-Archive-Violence-Non-Violence-Part01-February15-2012.html

I don’t know of any instance in history where the Ruling Class ever gave anything to the Lower Class without the threat of violence.

There must be a “Good Cop” and “Bad Cop” routine.

And where Hedges can state “If you won’t deal with our non-violent movement, then you can deal with the Black Bloc.”

That is how MLK played it. That is how Gandhi played it too. While they both spoke about non-violence, there was violence taking place everywhere.

When it comes to negotiations, it will be Chris Hedges which the government will negotiate with, and that is why he is playing his cards the way he is.

In addition; Chris Hedges can’t encourage violence just as MLK could not. They would be arrested in the morning and held responsible for any violence which takes place.

I think the best non-violent means to change the status quo is to occupy the freight rail services across North America. 80 percent of all goods moves by railway.
http://www.dotandcalm.com/calm-archive/EconomicNotes.html

Calm

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By gerard, April 8, 2012 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

Closing remark:  Next to Hedges’ broad and multi-faceted experience and his directness and clear rhetoric, these comments look pretty stupid by comparison.  Doesn’t anybody else notice that?  Doesn’t anybody care?

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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

aerosol-inducing saliva spraying asininity.

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By Troy Davis, April 8, 2012 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment

Are some of you, [you know who you are], as fucking assisine and stupid and your posts indicate.

Is the sole purpose of your posts to be as petty-minded, and mean-spirited as possible to prove your pretentiousness,perversity and petulance putting yourselves in position to prevent positive interaction with your pathetic posts. [NOW, THAT is alliteration].

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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

no vec, it’s not a pat on her own back.


really vec, there are SEVERAL people who have SEVERAL different POVs…...

there ARE more things on truthdig and earth than are dreamt of

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By gerard, April 8, 2012 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

When one runs sout of constructive or helpful things to say, he/she can always resort to personal insult.
Not that it does anybody any good ...

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By Miko, April 8, 2012 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There’s a difference from saying that a tactic is not
the most effective one available and saying that those
who employ that tactic are a cancer that needs to be
expelled.  Hedges is quite likely correct regarding the
former claim (at the present moment, at least), but I
wish that someone capable of understanding the truth of
the former would instantly realize that it implies the
falseness of the latter.

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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

damedog——- if you’re blogdog’s mother, you have
things to answer for, lady.

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By damedog, April 8, 2012 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

Chris Hedges is absolutely right. Nonviolence is the best weapon Occupy has to expose the dead hand for the corporate state. Those who use violence in this battle work against the movement’s interests.

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By vector56, April 8, 2012 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

To buy into “non-violence” totally is to give up ones “natural” right of self defense.

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By vector56, April 8, 2012 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

“You probably think the jihadis have good reason to continue the massacre. “

And you “OzarkMichae” (Ozark as in Hillbilly)probably “your” think the Black Christian President has good reason to murder Muslims without trial as if he were conducting normal business?

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By OzarkMichael, April 8, 2012 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

Gulam said:

It would be interesting indeed to see what the fabled 1% looks like. What percent of them are atheists, Mormons, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and Jews.

Especially Jews, eh Gulam? You are a prejuidiced Leftist.

The real heart of darkness in our world, the epicentre of wars, is in Israel/Palestine…

Oh I see. I suppose all those Christians masssacred by the Jihadis of North Africa dont count for much with you, do they? You probably think the jihadis have good reason to continue the massacre.

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By vector56, April 8, 2012 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

““Vec, maybe put a little liberalism in your leftishness.”  Touche!

Thanks, hetero!!

IMax,

isn’t that kinda like patting yourself on the back?

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By Gulam, April 8, 2012 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

America has become a monster as murderous and more
massive than the great, secular, killer empires of the
20th century. It would seem silly to assert now that good
German democrats could have headed off Hitler, once he
was in motion, with a campaign of non-violent be-ins.
Those who drive the reigning empire probably adore people
like Chris Hedges, because this kind of flightless wing flapping keeps
discontents busy and out of serious trouble.

The real heart of darkness in our world, the epicentre of wars, is in
Israel/Palestine, and on that issue, which one would expect the clergy to
provide historical background, they have betrayed their people. From America’s
clergy there has been far too much support and far to little oppostion to the
ludicrous myth that atheists fleeing Central Europe had, by virtue of supposed
Jewish ancestry, a God-give right to colonize Palestine and to drive off a
Christian and Muslim population that had been there far longer than the
populations of Northern Europe and America have been literate. If the clergy
would zero in on dealing with that one myth that lends itself so readily to
demolition by anyone familiar with the Torah or the Bible, they might actually
contribute to the situation.

It would be interesting indeed to see what the fabled 1% looks like. What
percent of them are atheists, Mormons, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and
Jews. This would seem to be basic information to have on hand before talking
about religion, poverty, and privilege in America, but I have not seen these
numbers, have you? We know who the poor are, but who are these super-rich
and what is their religious affiliation, if any?

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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

a duel in Weehawken would be preferable.

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By gerard, April 8, 2012 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment

moonraven:  How can I understand why, in criticizing Hedges as “weak” (or words to that effect) you seem to be advocating the continued use of the very tactics of violence, cruelty, deceit and extermination which abused, harmed and killed your own people?

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By jimmmmmy, April 8, 2012 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

What has this bickering to do with mr. Hedges’s article? Hetro and Moon should go on facebook and arrange a duel.I say this as some one whos been personnally attacked by both of them.

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By AG1, April 8, 2012 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

I’d agree with Hedges.

It seems those who advocate physical damage in the Occupy Wall Street movement have some type of glass window fetish. Glass can always be swept up and replaced.

Believe me, corporations have more glass and paint than do Black Block.

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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

moonie—- it’s just you again being full of shit and not having a single rational
reason for the personal attack in calling me a paid agent.

ya ain’t fooling anybody. stick to getting befriended by the goats.

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By moonraven, April 8, 2012 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

I am putting you on ignore.

You will not be able to invoice your US government agency for any more iinterchanges with me today.

I’m off to see Bunzilla.

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By moonraven, April 8, 2012 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

I do not make personal attacks.

I provide facts and information regarding geopoltics, as I am well-educated, well-travelled and fairly well-connected globally—and I alert other posters when folks like you are violating the rules of the site and are paid by the post by the US government to disrupt debate and dialog on supposedly leftist sites.

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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

as long as you continue with your own bullshit personal attacks…expect nothing
else.

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By moonraven, April 8, 2012 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

Another infantile personal attack against me by herteronym.

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