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‘Left, Right & Center’: After Arizona

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Posted on Jan 14, 2011
Left, Right & Center
kcrw.com

With last week’s shocking shooting in Tucson as the backdrop for this week’s edition of “Left, Right & Center,” show regulars Robert Scheer, Tony Blankley, Arianna Huffington and Matt Miller discuss gun control, the plight of the social outcast, whether Sarah Palin made it all about her, and if Obama brought healing words to a reeling nation with Wednesday’s eulogy.  —KA

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By Murray Brill, January 19, 2011 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

Rewriting the 2nd Amendment on Guns

  Have given this topic a rest for a long time but now once again due to the latest horrible event I will once more try to propose a rewriting of the Second Amendment and again send it to my Congressors and the President. I don’t have the slightest doubt that once again this effort will be fruitless, but fool that I am I will do it anyway.
  REASONS for REWRITING OR REPLACING THE SECOND AMENDMENT

  1. To make clear what is not clear in the present amendment, that the right of individuals to bear arms is protected whether as an individual or as part of a well regulated militia.
  2. The purpose of a private citizen having the right to bear arms is a) To deter against the takeover of our democracy by any totalitarian movement whereby many millions of citizens having firearms would by guerrilla action make it difficult or impossible for a totalitarian group, even an army, to take control of the country by force against the will of the populace; b) To permit private citizens to engage in hunting and target practice if desired; c) To permit private citizens to protect themselves, their families and their property in certain circumstances where police protection is not feasible, or where the non-lethal protective devices such as mace sprays, stun guns, tranquilizer dart guns, etc. are not feasible.
  3. To clarify that for the purposes stated above, only a rifle or a shotgun shall be permitted and no working handguns, automatic weapons of any kind or any other firearm or weapon normally used by the armed forces or police or licensed security personnel shall be in the possession of a private citizen. In certain cases a working handgun may be carried by special permit authorized under specific circumstances. Handguns and automatic weapons are not needed for the purposes stated above, whereas they might be misused as a concealed weapon to kill or harm or intimidate others. Collectors of handguns may engage in their hobby provided that every handgun must be disabled to prevent firing.
  4.  No permitted weapon, i.e. rifle or shotgun, shall be allowed to be carried, exposed or hidden, in any public place apart from hunting grounds or target practice areas or the home or private property of the owner.
  5. Restrictions on the possession of a rifle/shotgun by a private citizen shall be as follows:
      a) 21 years of age minimum b) not a convicted felon or terrorist c) not mentally unbalanced or having serious psychological problems or having a history of confinement or restriction for maladjusted behavior. Anyone proposing to possess or purchase a permitted rifle/shotgun must be checked for background and qualifications by an established authority and given a license for the weapon as a prerequisite to possession.
  Any arms dealer or gunseller who allows anyone to purchase or take possession of a permitted weapon without confirming the eligibility by such license shall be guilty of a felony and his business confiscated.
  6. No private citizen who is eligible to possess a permitted weapon shall be unduly denied a license and right to possess such weapon. Only citizens of the USA shall be permitted to possess a weapon.

  As a native American Citizen, I call upon my Senators, Representative and my President of the USA to prepare and introduce the rewriting of the Second Amendment to our Constitution or to replace it with a new Amendment to put into effect the foregoing provisions.

  Respectfully submitted,
        Murray I Brill   currently retired in Greece Dorian Inn 17 Pireos St Athens 10552 Greece
                    US address and voting district: 1860 Maltman Los Angeles California 90026-1126
                    Tel:  +30(210)645-1849   email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)




 

 

 


Angeles California 90026-1126
                    Tel:  +30(210)645-1849   email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

 


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By skimohawk, January 17, 2011 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

Mike, I have no children, fortunately, by conscious choice.

No, Solomon was correct: There is nothing new under the sun. ( see: Hapsburg Empire )

Same shit, different bucket.
Only the names are changed to protect the innocent.

Don’t confuse dismissiveness with cynicism.

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By RayLan, January 17, 2011 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

skimohawk
“Makes me wish I was part of a big group hug right now. “
LOL

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment

simohawck

You are dismissive at the risk of your children’s future.

What IS “new under the sun” is the powerfully disruptive GLOBALIZATION PROCESS and the ever-shrinking elite that is driving it.  You fail to recognize this at the peril of your children’s freedom.

The same set of technologies that is being used by Olegarchs to drive the Globalization Process can easily be used to suppress popular dissent and then enslave the people… as the PRC Chinese have demonstrated (the internet CAN be controlled).

Why do you think that Western Oligarchs have thrown the masses into uncontrolled competition of the Slave with the Free? Do you actually believe that what is happening now… the binding of the planet into a tiny, resource depleted ball, is JUST THE USUAL HISTORY?

Try and work on your political awareness. I sense that you have potential, but this is not your time.  Hopefully I am wrong about the oncoming risks, but I am not willing to take that chance… permanent NIGHT in the freedom of the people.

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By skimohawk, January 17, 2011 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment

Perhaps if we all flap our arms together, we can fly.

Mike, I don’t know every detail of every issue. If I did, I’d change my name to Jesus, or Buddha, or something like that.
I do know that our government has used misinformation to sway the masses for some time. ( see: USS Maine, Havana Harbor )
There is nothing new under the sun.

I love the warm and fuzzy “Persuade, Change, Influence” motto.
Makes me wish I was part of a big group hug right now.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

skimohawk.

Just take your time with this system.  What I am telling you is well known Process Knowledge among PsyOp professionals… but they would NEVER come online to tell you.

When you say that, ‘the “unbalanced extremists” don’t make up a broad enough support base’, you are indicating that you have not yet digested the entire PsyOp that is underway. Political PsyOp experts have expertise that is as differentiated from yours as is Mike Ditka’s from a high school coach.

THEY NEVER HAD AN INTEREST IN EXTREMESTS.  THEY MADE A SERIOUS ERROR IN THE RISK ANALYSIS that said these extremists are at LOW RISK for Activation, i.e. there would be NO murders.

Please go back and reread my post.  You should get aggressive with me if you find weakness in my post. Currently your own understanding of this complex set of systems is incomplete, but you seem to be close, IMHO.

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By skimohawk, January 17, 2011 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

Mike, I’m not sure where to start.
I never heard of the Flores murder until I read it last night.
Did you ever hear of the shooting of John T. Williams before yesterday?
Many of these events receive only local coverage, as local news editors seem to take a rather myopic view of what the public needs to know.
To wit: If you live in Seattle, the only news you heard this last week was “weather” and “Seahawks”, as though the rest of the universe had ceased to exist.

But then, we really don’t even have “news” in this country anymore. Chet Huntley and David Brinkley are gone. We have entertainment, brought to you nightly by the same corporate machine that builds jet engines for fighter jets.
( Gotta love that latest “Good ol’ boy” line-dancing commercial of all those factory workers, telling us what wonderful folks they are at GE. )

The difference is: I am in disagreement with those who are drawing lines between A and B: between Sarah Palin and Jared Loughner; between Shawna Forde and “Tea Party”.
I am in full agreement with you that the rhetoric used ( by both sides ) serves no purpose other than to agitate and confuse the masses; to obfuscate the facts; to polarize the general population; to keep us all constantly distracted from the real story: which is that we are being sold out.

re:
“Much Tea Party rhetoric is designed to stir the emotions of Populist Conservatives. However this same rhetoric is TOTALLY INCENDIARY TO UNBALANCED EXTREMISTS.”

Anyone with any grasp of history should have already found that to be clearly evident. ( See: Goebbels )
But the “unbalanced extremists” don’t make up a broad enough support base.
So we get hard-hatted line dancers to soft-sell the masses who actually believed they had some “choice” when they voted last time around.
Then we get the insidious demagoguery about how Trade Unions are bankrupting various States ( see http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_cuts_are_coming_20110116/ ), and how illegal immigrants are the reason there’s no employment ( see Craigslist “Rants and Raves” for Seattle, Portland, or Los Angeles. )

Divide and conquer.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

Maani, ok, as you say, “I would go further”.


You seem to be politically sophisticated, so you should look into the REALITY of political communication in the United States. 

At the pinnacle of this Political Communication is Psychological Operations, and it is as invidious as it sounds.  The weapons of Poly PsyOps were developed during the cold war, and were long-ago turned on the American people by the most sophisticated PsyOp professionals in the world. (British experts first developed rudimentary PsyOps in dividing and manipulating demographically differentiated populations during the development of their Empire, and they perfected basic techniques during WWII while training Americans)

Do a search on Frank Luntz’s company theworddoctors.com to get a quick look at the profile of a moderately TOP LEVEL player in this field.  Luntz is useful to Right Wing PsyOps users because his personality is videogenic.  Yet he IS NOT a fully top of the line supplier. Such consultants run in stealth mode but are not impossible to locate.  Luntz gives the FACE of American PsyOps a friendly veneer… it is ACCEPTABLE.

Note: The American Right Wing includes substantial numbers of PsyOp professionals because of its deep bond with the US military and Intelligence communities. Very substantial sums are spent training and experiencing PsyOp experts inside the DIA and CIA. These two agencies are the primary breeding ground for Domain Experts who operate a level or two above Luntz.  The American Left is far behind.

The REALITY is that these latest murders in Tuscon are simple blow back from PsyOps run by the American Right targeting Conservative Populists.  The destabilized murderer is as much a victim as are the corpses that he left behind.

Corporate Power is not particularly interested in the details of Right Wing PsyOps, as LONG AS THEY DO NOT INTERFERE WITH ITS PROFIT HARVEST IN THE UNITED STATES.

See typical DOD PsyOp (non-stealth) here:

http://www.usacapoc.army.mil/facts-psyop.html

I can tell you more, but you have to indicate that you are listening.

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By RayLan, January 17, 2011 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment

SuperMike
“Your post is a fair try at “haughty dismissiveness”; however it is too myopic to be persuasive.  “
On the contrary I am not allowing the broader cultural problems/reasons to be denied by focusing on this one event. It is just an instance and symptom of something broader and deeper than some partisan conspiracy. America has at once been duped and sold out to the culture-raping corporate consumption ethic. Both parties are literally owned by the overarching power that dominates American society - and this is the capitalist machine which cares nothing for the welfare of citizens.
The fact that Obama’s advisors are drawn from the same corporate spawn from which the Bush advisors were drawn should alert us that partisan witch-hunting is exactly what it wants. That is its main cover. The violence has been ingested as culture, not just inflicted by a few wackos.
To deny this is ignore the real problem which is systemic not just local.

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By Maani, January 17, 2011 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

SuperMike:

“You need to slow down.  You need to think more carefully. THERE WAS NO “MASS APATHY” BECAUSE THE CORPORATE MEDIA SYSTEMATICALLY CENSORED THE STORY. Even in Arizona, this story is heavily suppressed.”

I would go further.  One poster here at TD posted a list of very interesting questions that lead to potentially disturbing answers.

For example, here was a sitting Congresswoman doing a public event - and there was not ONE law enforcement officer actually on site?

Also, given the ubiquity of cellphones, how is it that not ONE SINGLE PHOTO (or video…) of the event AS IT HAPPENED has been posted to the Internet?  Even if we accept that, in the immediate shooting, people were ducking for cover, there are not even any photos or vidoes of the moments afterward.  This question ALONE begs some serious consideration.

There were others, but these two already speak volumes.

Peace.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

RayLan


Your post is a fair try at “haughty dismissiveness”; however it is too myopic to be persuasive. 

These murders are ongoing. As Right Wing Propagandists refuse to BACK AWAY from the Narrative Lines that produced substantial political gains in November, so will the murders continue.

On the other hand, the Corporate Media, as the Communication Arm of the Oligarchs, will try to tamp down the fires, so that the Sheep Shearing can continue a pace.

Ex: There are more than a few pristinely white robed Saudi Princelings who DO NOT WISH to see their American Property devalued.

BTW, did you EVER notice that Right Wing propagandists continually talk about “White Shoe” liberals BUT NEVER mention “White Robed” Princes? Will now you don’t need my explanation of this… do you?

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By RayLan, January 17, 2011 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

High profile crimes especially against statesmen always bring a backlash of pundit and media drama. What else is new? It will be forgotten under the next media-produced virtual crisis. The entertainment value of violence has been profitably proven over and over again. ‘Cops’ is still running and was on prime time for years. Americans pay good money to watch violent sports events. Even the music is violent. Reality tv with all of its nasty low down vituperation thrives.
I am often amused by the mock moral tone of the media pundits who are the ring leaders of the carnaval culture called America. But then these clowns and actors are bought and paid for by the Oligarchy that has big vested interests in conducting continual wars. Goodness Palin’s stupid gun talk pales in comparison.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

skimohawk

Finally let me focus on the most disturbing part of your post where you say, “Murder people with darker skin: mass apathy and denial”. 

You need to slow down.  You need to think more carefully. THERE WAS NO “MASS APATHY” BECAUSE THE CORPORATE MEDIA SYSTEMATICALLY CENSORED THE STORY.

Even in Arizona, this story is heavily suppressed.

You MUST wake up to the barren landscape of American Corporate Media, and you must SEEK AGGRESSIVELY for knowledge that will set you free.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

skimohawk


ok, I will assist you, but you have to open your ears:

Much Tea Party rhetoric is designed to stir the emotions of Populist Conservatives. However this same rhetoric is TOTALLY INCENDIARY TO UNBALANCED EXTREMISTS.  Disinformation experts KNOW that such “blow back” is A REGULAR feature of high intensity campaigns… (this is standard CIA stuff).

Can the Tea Party find a “line” that does not produce these kinds of peripheral causities?

Real counter-spies that I know are aghast at the ludicrous efforts of the Tea Party to pull itself out of this mess. They are digging in. There will be more murder.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

skimohawk

NO! Not a “drug deal gone bad”.  That is just another idea in the endless, Apologetics of Fudging Right Wing Murder.  There were no drugs found at the site!

Until Right Wing propagandists acknowledge what they are doing, I PREDICT MORE MURDERS.

The most recent fudge was so disgusting that I actually saw a man vomit after reading the Interview in the Guardian:  Tuscon Tea Party honcho, Trent Humphries, questioned why Congressperson Gifford did not have SECURITY at Safeway. implication: GIFFORD CAUSED THE MURDERS OF THE BABY AND THE OTHERS.

The Tea Party is emotionally driven, and it is UNALTERABLY DEPENDENT on (addicted to) “killer rhetoric”.  This points to more death in the future. Let them beware an awful judgment that will fall upon them.

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By skimohawk, January 17, 2011 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

Come on, Mike… it’s obvious from your other posts you can do better than “whatever”.

We’re not in disagreement that inflammatory rhetoric over the airwaves has an effect on people’s actions.
( Kristallnacht, anyone? )

In the Flores case, I think it’s really a stretch to say a 14-member splinter group, “directed” by a former prostitute who was booted out of a much larger anti-immigration group for being “unstable” was “right wing”. “Over the Edge” might be a more suitable label.

Again, it remains to be seen: the case has not gone to trial, and only then might we really know the true motivations of Forde et al.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 7:25 am Link to this comment

skimohawk

Well.

Whatever. 

In my next Right Wing Murder List V1.2, I COULD say, “Right-Wing Drug Dealers MURDER 9 Year-Old Child”.

You would like this better?

In any case, the list of murder done by the distraught Right is GROWING.

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By RayLan, January 17, 2011 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

The panel immediately betray their political colors. Let’s make no mistake - politics are the main issue here - regardless of the lives that have been impacted. The level of ‘sympathy’ and ‘tragedy’ attended to are entirely political. The memorial itself was a highly political event and I disagree that Obama brought it to a new level. It culminated as all such American collective gatherings around a common cause usually do - in a celebration of self - a narcissistic rally around the specialness and goodness of the American people. Predictably, the right see no relevance to gun control and social services for the mentally ill. The left want to impune the economic state of the nation for fomenting violence.
The political lens having exposed the reality of the subsequent fallout to the Tuscon massacre,many words will be spoken and attempts made to make political capital- but nothing will change - no gun laws - no increased services for the mentally ill.
If violence were supposed to change things they would have a long time ago. Violence is endemic to American culture- it inspires the media and the entertainment values of film and television.
The American Dream over the past decades has received some lethal blows from reality and is gradually being taken down. The consumer-capitalist utopia that Americans always thought was their right has been shown to be built on cloudy delusions. It works only for a small percentage of citizens - the rich. This is not a country for anybody but the rich. The rest of us are hear as support staff for their life style.

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By skimohawk, January 17, 2011 at 7:13 am Link to this comment

Mike, after reading up on the Flores murder, it looks to me more like a drug deal gone bad than an attack by “the right wing”. ( According to Gonzalez ( mother of Flores ), Gaxiola ( one of the shooters ) and Flores ( father of Brisenia ) had an on-going dispute that had originated in 2008 over marijuana belonging to Gaxiola that had been stored at Flores’s residence. ) ( taken from “Wikipedia”, although I don’t consider “Wikipedia” to necessarily always be an accurate source of information. )

Shawna Forde was the “National Director” of a 14-member splinter group. Fourteen people makes not even an entire feather on that “wing”.
Speculation aside ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sally-kohn/the-bloody-truth-behind-a_b_216488.html ), it remains to be seen ( in the forthcoming judicial proceedings ) exactly what were the motivations of Forde and her accomplices.

That said, the story nonetheless underscores the point both Mr. Scheer made, and I myself reiterated in my previous post:
Murder white women: mass hysteria.
Murder people with darker skin: mass apathy and denial.

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By SuperMike1661, January 17, 2011 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

Oh, What about THAT OTHER 9 Year-old murdered by Right Wing discontent in Arizona

Christina Taylor Green was not the first 9 year-old recently murdered in Arizona.  The fact the you do not know this points directly to ongoing and sophisticated censorship by American Corporate Media.  The Managers of Corporate Media feel that they must “protect” the stability of the American polity; so they have erected their own Great Wall of China around your mind.

On 30 May 2009, Brisenia Flores, 9, and her father Raul, 29, of Arivaca, Arizona, were murdered by a Right Wing hit team of the splinter group, Minutemen American Defense.  Jury selection begins this week in the capital murder trial of the Minutemen, including a national director of the group.  Nine year old Brisenia, pleaded for her life, but was shot to death anyway.  Brisenia’s mother was able to fend off her attackers.

The SuperMike1661 Right Wing Murder List is about to be re-posted.  Version 1.2 will contain this profoundly disturbing hit.

Send your candidates for the murder list to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
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By skimohawk, January 17, 2011 at 5:43 am Link to this comment

Of the four, Mr. Scheer was the only one whose comments were worth listening to, which is a great disappointment to me, knowing that Ms. Huffington is a brilliant and articulate woman.
Mr. Blankley remains true to form with his usual bombastic non-answers and ludicrous fantasies of Joe Six-Pack fabricating his own magazines for semi-automatic pistols.

What does become clear from the conversation is that Rachel Maddow was correct last week when she stated that is not possible to have any rational discussion on “gun control” in this country- as evidence of this I submit the irrational comments from both Huffington and Blankley, both of whom are firmly anchored in a vast ocean of delusion.

I was disappointed in Mr. Scheer’s response to the question about Sarah Palin, who instead of using to full advantage an opportunity to go for the jugular vainly attempted to offer what might be interpretated as a diplomatic response.

The most salient points of the conversation were those brought up by Mr. Scheer early in the first segment, wherein he noted the dichotomy between the outrage and arm-flapping over a Congresswoman being shot, and the apathy and indifference to the killings that occur daily nationwide.
Where’s the outrage, the angst, the mourning, the Presidential addresses for John T. Williams, shot dead by Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk?

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause.
And rain puddles in heaven.
But not for drunk Indians or young black men.

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By SteveL, January 16, 2011 at 12:58 am Link to this comment

If you concede the streets and public meeting places to the NRA and their
interpretation of the 2nd amendment then meet and great events like those in
Tucson cannot take place.  This second amendment garbage has lessoned and
superseded all the other rights in the constitution.

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By Peter Knopfler, January 15, 2011 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment

It is called the collective consciousness, when you
can not get a job, when your home is at risk, more
visible homeless, and then you media, Movies are
violent, games violent, TV also violent. 22 year old
soldiers shaved head, smoking hash or heroin, running
through Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, 22 year
old killers in uniform.The american culture of
violence , first the American Indian, the Black
slaves, Irish Immigrants, w.w.1. abusing populations
is what America is all about. Soldier addicts in viet
Nam , thousands and same now. At 22 years old you
probably knew how to use a remote control before
talking or walking. Violent Play games great profit
in these where violence videos games TV all violent
to shape the human brain-mind. The human brain unlike
other mammals, is shaped by environment not genetics,
the collective consciousness builds up, focus on
murder and the laws of attraction give you murder. If
we are all one then when we kill over seas, we set up
murder at home, every breath I breath you so also I
exhale fear, you sense fear, I exhale anger, you
sense anger, add medication, killer on the loose.
Where are our social scientists,? Listen GUN CONTROL
DOES NOT WORK; MEXICO NO GUNS VERY STRICT GUN LAWS
HIGHEST MURDER RATE IN THE WORLD, people can not
defend their homes, Switzerland is a good example of
gun safety.Never Let A disaster go to waste, so Obama
after killing children and mothers by Drone, Drone
killings are part of our violent mind set, stuck on
stupid if you do not learn from MEXICO. None here
have hit the nail on the hammer all 22 year olds kill
6, wound 18 look exactly like Jared Lee, killing is
not normal and all American kids are killing over
seas, look just like Jared killing drives you crazy
stain on you spirit a hole in your soul. Collective
conscious like pissing in the wind, stepping in your
own poop, WHAT YOU DO TO OTHERS YOU DO TO YOURSELF,
what goes around comes around, Yet NONE of these
Media folks say this American nightmare , Wake Up.
this talk is Kool=aid anyone.

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By ShowMeTheEvidence, January 15, 2011 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here’s how you get gun control on the agenda FAST by BOTH parties. Just start talking about bankers with the same vitriol that is leveled at politicians and the government and then start using the same language that Glen Beck has directed at Michael Moore (“I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore…”). Then just sit back and wait for the inevitable. If what happened to Cong. Giffords happened to a few bankers or hedge fund managers you would get gun control passed in the blink of an eye.

Just to make it clear. I’m certainly not advocating this. Just like Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle certainly weren’t advocating it. I’m just saying…

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By omop, January 15, 2011 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment

Its now definite. With the hoopla about the “Green Hornet” Americans can now do
all sorts of actions and pontificate words that define their charicatures.

Why not a young man of the same religion as his intended victim and whose
mother belongs to the same religious congregation as the Congresswoman and
who was rejected/ignored by a woman going bananas?

Talk amongst yourselves.

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By zzonerr, January 15, 2011 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

I listened to LRC on the car radio today driving down the coast.  Arianna puts way to much Palin on HP and she won’t publish my commments advising people to boycott those links. I hold the main stream media responsible for creating the Palin monster just as much as anything or anyone else.  Jimmy Dorr had a funny show on KCRW on Thursday (available on podcast) about the laziness of the media.

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By Maani, January 15, 2011 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

Yipes.  What a bunch of hooey.  I’m shocked - shocked! - that none of them had much spine (though Bob came out best).

Re Blankley, his response to the question about gun control was about as convoluted and evasive as anything I have heard of late.

Re Arianna, she is a hypocrite.  She talked about how strongly she supports the First Amendment right to free speech - and then refuses to publish any blog or article that dares to argue the issue of violent rhetoric!

Re Bob, his defense of Palin - and particularly her outrageous and insensitive use of the phrase “blood libel” - bordered on kow-towing.

All in all, a decidedly weak conversation.  And while I am all for civility, the type these three engaged in was spineless and saccharine.

Peace.

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