#67897 by Douglas Chalmers on 5/03 at 12:03 am
(238 comments total)

#67774 by 127001 on 5/02 at 2:00 pm: “...Reference:

“#67645 by JNagarya - You have a bee up your butt; fly it out your mouth out of my awareness please….”

“There are a couple of posters on TruthDig who seem to be paid to continually broadcast their comments as often and as widely as possible.

“It wouldn’t matter except that they also have their own bigoted personal agenda which they tend to want to ram down others’ throats as much as uselessly taking up space.

“It actually works to this blog’s disadvantage and keeps genuine commenters from venturing to put anything in writing lest they be shouted down or otherwise harassed.”

Whatsamattuh, Dougie?  Forget the name of the person you are personally attacking?

Don’t like the fact that not everyone here is about preaching to the choir when the preachings are false?

Don’t like the fact that whose who insist others must be truthful and law-abiding might be expected to be an examplle of that, rather than self-exempted from that standard?

Should I—knowing you cannot—demand you actually substantiate your smears, instead of merely slinging them?

#67774 by 127001 on 5/02 at 2:00 pm: “...Reference:

#67645 by JNagarya - You have a bee up your butt; fly it out your mouth out of my awareness please….”

There are a couple of posters on TruthDig who seem to be paid to continually broadcast their comments as often and as widely as possible.

It wouldn’t matter except that they also have their own bigoted personal agenda which they tend to want to ram down others’ throats as much as uselessly taking up space.

It actually works to this blog’s disadvantage and keeps genuine commenters from venturing to put anything in writing lest they be shouted down or otherwise harassed.

#67774 by 127001 on 5/02 at 8:30 pm
(37 comments total)

Reference:

“#67645 by JNagarya

“You have a bee up your butt; fly it out your mouth out of my awareness please.”

To the contrary: I don’t deal in personalities—and personal attack.  I deal, instead, in objective fact, and cite to the sources thereof so you—yes, even you—can verify, or not, for yourself, whether I accurately present those facts.

It’s called “intellectual honesty”.  It’s open-handed and generous.  Feel free to act responsibly on the citations to sources—going to the sources themselves—I provide.

Or provide alternative substantiation which you believe counters mine.  That would be _debate_—which you do not do; and which—_debate_—you would have suppressed for the unmolested comfort of your assertion of who-cares-whether-it’s-true—it is believed.

In the alternative, be lazy and irresponsible in effort to avoid that responsible effort by calling me names.  Avoid all critical evaluation of True Beliefs by simply not reading my posts.  Others here—more than the one you are—appreciate them.  You’re outnumbered in honesty, responsibility, and concern with truth over favorite personal prejudices.

Get it through your avoidance, as I make obvious: I challenge and critique my views as much as I do yours, and others.  It’s called “intellectual honesty”.  If you can’t stand the heat of intellectual honesty, then get out of the “debating” kitchen.  Eye-to-eye, toe-to-toe, dude.  Or play in the lesser leagues, and endeavor to reduce everything to that preferred mediocrity.

Reference:

#67645 by JNagarya

You have a bee up your butt; fly it out your mouth out of my awareness please.

127001

#67640 by basho on 5/01 at 9:55 pm
(58 comments total)

#67543 by JNagarya on 5/01 at 1:05 pm

re: American scripture

thanx, now maybe we can put this out of the way.

Perhaps, instead, you can inform yourself, instead of dealing only with the superficial.

I don’t deal simply with the generalization that is history.  I deal specifically with the legal history—the actual law, not the non-law context of and commentary about same.  As example, the British acted to disarm the Colonists.  And, the colonists disarmed the Brits/Tories, as result of which there was no counter-“revolution”.

As example, the colonists—not the Brits—prohibited criticism of the propaganda piece “Declaration of Independence”—even in private—the doing of which was defined in the anti-Brit “revolutionary” laws as just short of treason.

Fantasy, and unexamined presumption, are not a substitute for the actual history.  And unlike the generalization that is history, the legal history is the non-abstract or generalized of that which the Founders and Framers were actually, concretely, about.

Anti-Bushitters who fake such knowledge are no different than the Bushitters who do exactly the same.

#67543 by JNagarya on 5/01 at 1:05 pm

re: American scripture

thanx, now maybe we can put this out of the way.

#67534 by basho on 5/01 at 6:54 pm
(56 comments total)

#67371 by JNagarya on 4/30 at 7:12 pm

‘Thought precedes action—if one respects (but doesn’t claim for oneself)
wisdom. “Conventional wisdom” is a contradiction in terms: wisdom is by nature
unconventional.  Tha’s why it’s wisdom.’

thought precedes action.
...and because it does this ‘action’ is a re-acting of thought.
the act re-acted is a product of thought.
thought is memory.
memory is the past.
what else could it be?
we meet the present with the past.
we re-act.

conventional wisdom is, as you say, a contradiction of terms - it is re-action.
wisdom is action.

what do you think? 

Action is the implementation of thought.  One can, by contrast, be a reactionary without engaging in action (other than digging in one’s heels).

#67430 by basho on 5/01 at 3:53 am
(56 comments total)

To:
#67278 by 127001 on 4/30 at 10:10 am
(35 comments total)

“basho…

“The “American Scriptures” term was coined by Leonard Schroeter regarding citizen’s rights in the courts. See Civil Gideon … Citizen Rights!. And I still think its an excellent term for the American Constitution and Bill of Rights.

“Schroeter quote (Presented at: Washington State Access to Justice Annual Conference Jurisprudence Workshop Wenatchee, Washington June 27, 1999)

“‘In my view, then and now, our historic heritage of English constitutionalism, and the Common Law, through Magna Carta, and other charters of freedom, were adopted and incorporated into American jurisprudence.”

First, note he uses the term “historic”—not legal.  Second, it is not true that the “English common law” or English constitutional documents, Magna Carta included, were the foundation or sources for our Contitution and Bill of Rights.

The first stable English colonies on this continent were establish 1620—New-Plimoth—and 1629/30—Massachusetts-Bay.  From those years, until 1691/2, when New-Plimoth was absorbed into MA-Bay, the “Enlgish common law” evolved into something else, based in part on exigencies which existed in the colonies, but not in England.  In addition, MA-Bay was in constant conflict for enacting laws “repugnant to” its charter.  Some of those granted greater freedom than the charter allowed; others less.

That conflict came to a head in 1684, when England revoked MA-Bay’s charter for having continued to act “too independently” of England/English law.  And that eventuated in MA-Bay overthrowing royal governor Andros, and shipping his butt back to England.

Thus, when it came to the so-called “American Revolution,” “independence” in the law was already well-established on this continent, in all the colonies, in their laws.

“These were enhanced and modified by the great American Scriptures: The Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address, and by the essential commonality of our more than 50 constitutions and declarations of rights, including, of course, the U.S.”

False.  The themes which eventuated in the propaganda piece “Declaration,” and the constitution and Bill of Rights had been long in the evolving in the colonies on this continent, independent of, and in some instances uniquely, English law.
Constitution and Bill of Rights.

“So, i guess ‘English constitutionalism, and the Common Law, through Magna Carta, and other charters of freedom’ could be called the Old Testament”.

The “Old Testament” would be the long history of law evolved on this continent in the colonies.  And as concerns the current worshipping of the founding document—Constitution/Bill of Rights—and “Declaration,” see _American Scripture_, by Paulene Maier.  The lazy, feel-good words are one thing, the reality quite another.

#67371 by JNagarya on 4/30 at 7:12 pm

‘Thought precedes action—if one respects (but doesn’t claim for oneself)
wisdom. “Conventional wisdom” is a contradiction in terms: wisdom is by nature
unconventional.  Tha’s why it’s wisdom.’

thought precedes action.
...and because it does this ‘action’ is a re-acting of thought.
the act re-acted is a product of thought.
thought is memory.
memory is the past.
what else could it be?
we meet the present with the past.
we re-act.

conventional wisdom is, as you say, a contradiction of terms - it is re-action.
wisdom is action.

what do you think?

#67371 by JNagarya on 4/30 at 7:12 pm

“Changing how we think IS within the law, last time I checked.”

Someone said otherwise?”

not so fast, my friend

>The ACLU has claimed that “Many [people] are unaware that their library habits could become the target of government surveillance. In a free society, such monitoring is odious and unnecessary. . . The secrecy that surrounds section 215
leads us to a society where the ‘thought police’ can target us for what we choose to read or what Websites we visit.” (ACLU, July 22, 2003)

To:
#67278 by 127001 on 4/30 at 10:10 am
(35 comments total)

basho…

The “American Scriptures” term was coined by Leonard Schroeter regarding citizen’s rights in the courts. See Civil Gideon … Citizen Rights!. And I still think its an excellent term for the American Constitution and Bill of Rights.
.................
Schroeter quote (Presented at: Washington State Access to Justice Annual Conference Jurisprudence Workshop Wenatchee, Washington June 27, 1999)

‘In my view, then and now, our historic heritage of English constitutionalism, and the Common Law, through Magna Carta, and other charters of freedom, were adopted and incorporated into American jurisprudence.  These were enhanced and
modified by the great American Scriptures: The Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address, and by the essential commonality of our more than 50 constitutions and declarations of rights, including, of course, the U.S.
Constitution and Bill of Rights. ‘

So, i guess ‘English constitutionalism, and the Common Law, through Magna Carta, and other charters of freedom’ could be called the Old Testament and ‘the great American Scriptures’ the New Testament. Well, why not, the ‘other scriptures
seem to be bankrupt.

‘Coined’ is an interesting word, don’t you think?

2. To make or fabricate; to invent; to originate; as, to coin
    a word.

        Some tale, some new pretense, he daily coined, To
        soothe his sister and delude her mind.—Dryden.
http://dict.die.net/coined/

..................

‘‘American Scripture, (the book)’’ by effectively arguing that our Declaration was never intended to be scripture and seriously misleads the nation when it is treated as a sacred text, offers Americans a fresh perspective on their most
treasured national relic. But if this book is the strongest statement of the Declaration as the embodiment of the American mind, it is not the definitive history. The very originality of Maier’s work demonstrates that neither
‘‘American Scripture’’ nor Carl Becker’s classic book ‘‘The Declaration of Independence: A Study in the History of Political Ideas’’ (1922) can claim this distinction. America’s brief Declaration has too many dimensions—its origins (historical and philosophical), its making (in Philadelphia and in myriad localities) and its legacy (both domestic and international)—to be captured by any one approach.

AMERICAN SCRIPTURE
Making the Declaration
of Independence.
By Pauline Maier.
304 pp. New York:
Alfred A. Knopf. $27.50.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/07/06/reviews/970706.06ryersot.html

#67269 by Ernest Canning on 4/30 at 9:10 am
(97 comments total)

re comment #67095 by Basho.  The public did not “cede” or abdicate control of
elections..
..........

well, i’m not hung up on the words. what words would you use to describe the following statistics?

2006
VAP 226,357,772
VEP 206,963,852
VAP Rate 37%
VEP Rate 40.5%
VEP Total Turnout rate 41.19%

vap= voting age pop.
vep= voting eligible pop.
http://elections.gmu.edu/Voter_Turnout_2006.htm
..............
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/votestats.html
..............
http://www.fairvote.org/turnout/preturn.htm

‘To use the words “cede” and “abdicate” is to suggest that the current malaise is the product of a conscious decision on the part of the American public.’

i wouldn’t use the word ‘conscious’ here. maybe…lethargic?

‘The corporate media takes pains to see that the public does not come to realize the enormous scope of the betrayal.’

see Goebbel’s Principles of Propaganda
http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html

#67325 by American Slave on 4/30 at 9:23 pm
(22 comments total)

#67305 by JNagarya on 4/30 at 1:03 pm
+(
There are saner solutions—within the law—such as working at the grassroots to impeach Bush, et al., and bringing that pressure to Congress.  Congress will do it if it is made clear that it isn’t based in partisanship.
)+

“Changing how we think IS within the law, last time I checked.”

Someone said otherwise?

“The Bolshevik Revolution, the anti-Marcos revolution, the ‘sixties revolution, and the anti-communist revolutions of the 1980s were all non-violent.  Violence usually comes afterward, in the counter-revolution phase, when the Establishment uses bombs and bullets to crush ideas.  If the ideas are sound, then the violence fails: The Establishment loses so much credibility that it loses all legitimacy.”

Thought precedes action—if one respects (but doesn’t claim for oneself) wisdom.  “Conventional wisdom” is a contradiction in terms: wisdom is by nature unconventional.  Tha’s why it’s wisdom.

“‘We the people’ have more power than we realize.

According to the underlying view of the founders and Framers constitutions, the power of gov’t is derived from We the people.  Ours is a representative democray.  The gov’t is We the people, with the “check” against We the people being the “editorial” process of gov’t, intermediatating between We the people, and We the people.

To paraphrase James Madison: gov’t is the mechanism, process, by means of which the community regulates itself.

“As long as we play by the enemy’s rules, dividing ourselves neatly into “Left” and “Right”, we are conquered before we start.  But if we sit down and minimize our cooperation with the fascists, then the enemy is forced to squander more and more resources on making us obey, till finally everyone sees the charade for what it is.”

The positive appraoch is to emphasize sameness, commonalities, and cooperation over competition.  The latter, taken to _laise faire_ extreme, is the ultimate individualism—and divide-and-conquer_ed_. 

I wasn’t listening cloasely, but there was an interview with Murtha on NPR.  Whether he brought it up, or was asked by the interviewer about it, I don’t know; but he used the word “impeachment,” and said that he recieves lots of phone calls and emails every day calling for impeachment.  I think the cat’s out of the bag: I noted somewhere online an assertion that impeachment may be used as threat to force Bushit to sign the bill instead of vetoing it.  If so, the Congress is aiming at unequivocality—crushing the organized crime that is Bush, et al.  Without thorough and aboveboard investigation, but without wasting time.

Those who bash Congress don’t recall, and probably didn’t see, the Watergate hearings.  Meticulous, careful, aboveboard, and unequivocal in their drive for the facts and truth, without prejudging where they would lead.

#67278 by 127001 on 4/30 at 10:10 am: “...I agree with you about the Chinese history in the U.S. Great reading for anyone who cares to really look it up and study it….”

Actually, I was referring to Chinese history in China - the same as you were referring to Native American history in America before. But yes, China has 1,000’s of years of recorded history - it puts European and US history to shame.

As far as their history of assimilating various ethnic groups is concerned, they have 55 languages (there are only 2 or 3 we know about in the West). Europeans would understand that but Anglo-Americans (and other Anglo-colonized countries like Australia and Canada) are unable to comprehend.

The “warring states” period in China a couple of thousand years ago has made for many fascinating action movie dramas (check http://global.yesasia.com/en/index.aspx ) based on traditional stories many of real-life characters. As the Americas would have been colonized by China 700 years ago instead of Europe if things had worked out differently with their own domestic politics (search “admiral Cheng Ho”), it is worthwhile to get to know them better.

One might as well given the state of the US budget and current account deficits as regards overseas debt. China and Japan virtually own the USA now as far as agreeing to continue to finance domestic spending is concerned. And, if you look at the labels on goods in the stores, you find that so much everywhere comes from China these days (sane in other countries too).

As you say, 127001, “unfortunately, some read history, some live it” but we all make our own personal lives in the end. We should always be brave enough to live our own inner beliefs and to embrace Truth as it really is. Rejecting the liars and their manipulative schemings is a start. As far as this topic is concerned, that means only voting for politicians who tell the TRUTH!

#67305 by JNagarya on 4/30 at 1:03 pm
+(
There are saner solutions—within the law—such as working at the grassroots to impeach Bush, et al., and bringing that pressure to Congress.  Congress will do it if it is made clear that it isn’t based in partisanship.
)+

Changing how we think IS within the law, last time I checked.  The Bolshevik Revolution, the anti-Marcos revolution, the ‘sixties revolution, and the anti-communist revolutions of the 1980s were all non-violent.  Violence usually comes afterward, in the counter-revolution phase, when the Establishment uses bombs and bullets to crush ideas.  If the ideas are sound, then the violence fails: The Establishment loses so much credibility that it loses all legitimacy. 

“We the people” have more power than we realize.  As long as we play by the enemy’s rules, dividing ourselves neatly into “Left” and “Right”, we are conquered before we start.  But if we sit down and minimize our cooperation with the fascists, then the enemy is forced to squander more and more resources on making us obey, till finally everyone sees the charade for what it is. 

No matter how much force the Establishment applies, it is not enough to push a string—it is not enough to MAKE us love Big Brother. 

How long would the CNN propaganda shows last, if everyone simply turned off their tvs?  Turning to “American Idol” would be just as effective: Either way, the CNN ratings would go down. 

CNN is now trying to ban Mike Gravel from the next debate.  We should respond by banning CNN: The other D-wing contenders should tell CNN to get lost.  Banning CNN would create a sensation and would thus draw MORE attention to the debate, not less. 

Excluded candidates should join Sam Waterston’s new “Unity 08” party.

http://www.unity08.com/

- -

There’s a thousand things we could do, if we WANTED to be free.  But first, we need to IDENTIFY the enemy and stop collaborating with it. 

We must come to realize that the War System has NO redeeming value!  It is the ENEMY of mankind.  It is CANCER.  It will destroy us ALL.  There is NO good reason for granting legitimacy to this genocidal depraved system.  Nor should we grant legitimacy to the establishment that serves this monstrous evil.

“It’s time.  It has BEEN time for the last hundred years or so.”

US Con., Art. I., Sec. 8., The Congress shall have Power . . . . Cl. 15. To provide for calling forth the Militia to . . . suppress Insurrection . . . .”

“As Emerson wrote in “History”, revolution is first a thought in one man’s mind.  And, indeed, the revolution is fought on the battlefield of the mind.  To join the revolution, just change your way of thinking: Let your every thought and action be inspired by the hope of freedom someday.  Reject the divisions the empire imposes on us—the artificial nonsensical divide between “Left” and “Right”, for example.  Refuse to be confined to this tiny one-dimensional “spectrum”.  Turn off the TV, or, even better, learn to laugh at Wolf Blitzer and the other clowns.  Learn to see through the wall of illusions.”

There was a great deal more talk of “revolution” during the ‘60s (I was there, and I remember), yet it didn’t happen.  And it was suggested that “revolution is fought on the battlefield of the mind”—yet it still didn’t happen.

There are saner solutions—within the law—such as working at the grassroots to impeach Bush, et al., and bringing that pressure to Congress.  Congress will do it if it is made clear that it isn’t based in partisanship.

#67245 by Spinoza on 4/30 at 7:21 am
+(
The so called mainstream media is the enemy of democracy and the enemy of the American people.

Is it not time to talk about revolution?
)+

It’s time.  It has BEEN time for the last hundred years or so.

As Emerson wrote in “History”, revolution is first a thought in one man’s mind.  And, indeed, the revolution is fought on the battlefield of the mind.  To join the revolution, just change your way of thinking: Let your every thought and action be inspired by the hope of freedom someday.  Reject the divisions the empire imposes on us—the artificial nonsensical divide between “Left” and “Right”, for example.  Refuse to be confined to this tiny one-dimensional “spectrum”.  Turn off the TV, or, even better, learn to laugh at Wolf Blitzer and the other clowns.  Learn to see through the wall of illusions.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/mr_bush_tear_down_these_walls/#67090—from slavery to freedom

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/bill_moyers_interviews_john_stewart/#67270—satan laughs

http://www.freeforum101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11194&mforum=times#11194—
+(
Tyrants are but the spawn of Ignorance,
Begotten by the slaves they trample on.
)+
—James Russel Lowell, “Prometheus”, 1843

http://www.welfarestate.com/unite/—Left and Right Must Unite!

http://www.welfarestate.com/nwo/—Escape from the HIVE

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?postid=1893825#post1893825—geometry hides extremism of the “center”

basho…

The “American Scriptures” term was coined by Leonard Schroeter regarding citizen’s rights in the courts. See Civil Gideon … Citizen Rights!. And I still think its an excellent term for the American Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Someone made a comment about how it isn’t “sacred” ... Try believing that when you get pulled over by a cop, he decides you are guilty and shoots you. It’s happening in the U.S. Try reading the news reports online ... “Bad Cop News” or “The Agitator” ... Then tell me what a great country this is ... until it happens to you and no one gives a damn.

Douglas Chalmers….

Thanks for the comments. “Rewriting history” seems a real American thing these days, but it has been happening for a while too, and its really sad. I agree with you about the Chinese history in the U.S. Great reading for anyone who cares to really look it up and study it.

Unfortunately, some read history, some live it. I wish I had the opportunity to create that much distance. I’ve seen others here at Truthdig post comments that reflect they are living history today as well as being products of it.

Unfortunately, we don’t have a government that is doing the same.

re comment #67095 by Basho.  The public did not “cede” or abdicate control of elections to the corporate media.  The public was first betrayed when Reagan repealed the “Fairness Doctrine,” and again when the Clinton administration joined forces with the fascists in ramming through the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which has provided the grounds for the massive consolidation of control over the monopoly licenses to broadcast over the “public” airwaves.

To use the words “cede” and “abdicate” is to suggest that the current malaise is the product of a conscious decision on the part of the American public.  Not true!  Most of what has occurred took place behind closed doors, carefully shielded behind the the same type of meaningless platitutes and carefully constructed “images” that are used by the corporatist candidates (e.g., Clinton/Obama/Edwards).  The corporate media takes pains to see that the public does not come to realize the enormous scope of the betrayal.  The reason that it is scrambling to find ways to exclude the likes of Kucinich and Gravel is that those candidates threaten to expose the scam—an exposure that will arouse an uninformed public.

The so called mainstream media is the enemy of democracy and the enemy of the American people.

Is it not time to talk about revolution?

Gravel and Kucinich would make a good ticket.  I want them to join together and fight the establishment.  I hope that those of you who care, even if you don’t support them, insist upon the media to include these two in the next debates.
I can’t believe that only Kucinich has the guts to put Cheney up for impeachment.  I guess the rest of them are in on it.

#67067 by 127001 on 4/28 at 8:15 pm
(34 comments total)

Reference: #67054 by JNagarya on 4/28 at 6:50 pm

“The American Constitution is as sacred as ANY religious text. It is the basis of this country.”

It isn’t “sacred”—it is secular. 

“A “scripture” is a “sacred text” and if the American Constitution is not, then tell me why the f**K not?! Same with the Bill of Rights. Because I am SICK AND TIRED of being told the friggin bible is the only damn scripture!”

Ever hear of separation of church and state? 

Ever hear the false claims by the Fundamentalists that the Constitution is based on Christianity, the “bible”?  Why play into their hands?  Why capitulate to them by applying their emotionalized anti-intellectual anti-Americanism to the Constitution?

“Go learn some history, and then some philosophy, and then learn some math. Figure out a little bit about culture.”

First, I wasn’t born circa noon yesterday.  Second, I am a legal professional with an actual education in actual law.  Third, my special focus is the legal history which, generally, eventuated in US Constitution and Bill of Rights.  In so doing, I spend much time researching and studying the law as it evolved from first foundings of (English) colonies on this continent.  For a few of the results of that research and stuy, see my comments in the threads to “Politics Aside, Guns STill Kill,” and “It’s the Guns, Stupid”.

That should take care of the history—and philosophy—part of it.  But I’ll ask anyway: which “philosophy” do you recoomend”?  “Divine right”/“Natural law”?

As for the “math” part of it: you’ll have to explain what that has to do with any of this.

“I’ll meet you toe to toe and eye to eye and believe me, you will be the first to back down.”

When argument fails resort to bullying and threats—just like Bush, et al.

“I believe in the America of 1776!”

This is excerpt from a statute enacted by MA-Bay’s “revolutionary” legislature which reflects a reality from “America of 1776”—

“An Act for the executing in the Colony . . . one Resolve of the American Congress, dated March, 14, 1776”—

“. . . .  That every Male Person above sixteen Years of Age, resident in any Town or Place in this Colony, who shall neglect or refuse to subscribe a printed or written Declaration of the Form and Tenor herein after prescribed, upon being required thereto by the Committee of Correspondence, Inspection and Safety for the Town or Place in which he dwells, or any one of them, shall be disarmed, and have taken from him in Manner hereafter directed, all such Arms, Ammunition, and Warlike Implements, as by the strictest Search can be found in his Possession or belonging to him; . . . .”

Perhaps you should read some history—at least as concerns the actual realities of “America in 1776”.

#66946 by 127001 on 4/28 at 7:33 am
(34 comments total)

‘If Gravel is banned, it’s not an “open debate” is it?

So, why would the others stand up for that? Next, maybe we should find reasons to ban one (or more) of them.’

...maybe you should start by ‘trashing’ the corporate media.
stop buying the products they are selling. they understand $$.

#66965 by M Currey on 4/28 at 9:10 am

‘... and I think that some are scared to death that a women can do the same job as a man, and she may even do a better job.’

not his woman

#66928 by 127001 on 4/28 at 2:12 am
(34 comments total)

‘American Scriptures’

you must be joking.

#66928 by 127001 on 4/28 at 2:12 am
(34 comments total)

‘America became strong because of the Constitution. It will die when it is abandoned.’

then you are already dead. read Patriot Act I & II

#67092 by 127001 on 4/28 at 9:58 pm: “.....I spent just this Saturday morning talking at length with my Cherokee neighbor (my own grandmother Lakota background) about the stories where mass graves had been found in Colorado and Utah.

What is the Queen apologizing for. My grandmother was in her late teens (and the month after she was married) before she stopped stepping into the street when the white man walked toward her. She stopped because her German born husband said she didn’t have to any more.

She grew up being called a “breed” and told me years ago about the signs that said “No dogs and no Indians allowed.” She said, “dogs always came first.”......”
________________________________________

Interesting about your family background, 127001. Thanks for your sharing. I agree with all you say.

If you search the history of Shanghai, you will also find the term “No dogs or Chinese allowed” - but, for Chinese, that was in their own country! So much for the colonialists - including the white Americans…....

#67042 by Ernest Canning on 4/28 at 4:50 pm
‘What right does anyone in the corporate media have to decide who should be on the debate panel?’

when the public abdicated their right to decide.

‘When did We the People cede control on who we vote for to the corporate media pundits?’

when the public ceded their right to vote.

#67092 by 127001 on 4/28 at 9:58 pm: “...I’m not sure what you are trying to say. You comment that the Queen is being asked to apologize for the treatment of Native Americans? (and African Americans, but I’m not addressing that)......”

Duh! That was quoted from the article about pre-1776 “history” - I am not commenting, they are.

#66766 by kevin99999 on 4/27 at 10:02 am

‘I consider————to be an establishment candidate. Within that context, I think she did a very good job and came across as a capable individual.’

replace the blanks with; j.stalin, a.hitler, a.pinochet ad nauseum.

lol

Reference: #67074 by Douglas Chalmers on 4/28 at 8:41 pm

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. You comment that the Queen is being asked to apologize for the treatment of Native Americans? (and African Americans, but I’m not addressing that).

What about the U.S. Congress, who had on the books for about 9 months in either late 1800s or early 1900s, a law ordering genocide of Native Americans in the U.S.?

I spent just this Saturday morning talking at length with my Cherokee neighbor (my own grandmother Lakota background) about the stories where mass graves had been found in Colorado and Utah.

What is the Queen apologizing for. My grandmother was in her late teens (and the month after she was married) before she stopped stepping into the street when the white man walked toward her. She stopped because her German born husband said she didn’t have to any more.

She grew up being called a “breed” and told me years ago about the signs that said “No dogs and no Indians allowed.” She said, “dogs always came first.”

Catholic priests came to this country and burned the holy men of tribes if they didn’t convert to Christianity. More often than not, they burned them alive.

Is that history enough?

European “Christianity” is a reason many came here. Millions of women and children were tortured and murdered until the mid-1700s because they were accused of not being “christian” (generally a witch or some such thing). To make it worse, they were forced to pay for their torture and execution as well. The Catholic church coffers are lined with the estates of those individuals.

The treatment of Native Americans in the U.S. and Canada have been worse than the detainees in Gitmo. And the English taught the Native Americans working for them to take scalps.

Perhaps taking scalps should be revitalized ... of a few politicians and members of the legal system in this country.

American government has a “hidden” history of being as brutal during its existence as any regime any other country that classifies certain individuals as better than others.

The Constitution was specifically designed so that we could grow into a better society, not worse. WASPs are not the only “citizens” contrary to what Christian fundamentalists would have people believe.

#66795 by Eileen Newell on 4/27 at 11:47 am

‘I applaud Senator Gravel’s brave, honest comments on the war in Iraq. After a steady diet of lies and cover ups I was thrilled to see someone stand up and tell it like it is. He asked the audience what was worse, all the young men and women who have died in vain in Iraq or MORE men and women dying in vain in Iraq? Bravo!’

...but i’m going to vote for h.c. anyway.

lol

#67067 by 127001 on 4/28 at 8:15 pm: “...Go learn some history, and then some philosophy, and then learn some math. Figure out a little bit about culture….”

“THE Queen is being urged to apologise for the slaughter of American Indians and the introduction of slavery when she visits Virginia this week as guest of honour to mark the 400th anniversary of the first English settlement in the New World at Jamestown.

She will be landing in the middle of a row over political correctness after officials in Virginia banned the use of the word “celebration” for the anniversary. It is being called a “commemoration” out of respect for the suffering of native Americans, who were attacked after the colonists arrived in 1607.

Africans begin to appear in the English settlement’s records as indentured servants in 1619 and were later codified in Virginia’s statutes as slaves. Virginia passed a resolution earlier this year expressing “profound regret” for the enslavement of millions of Africans….”  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720014.ece

Reference: #67054 by JNagarya on 4/28 at 6:50 pm

The American Constitution is as sacred as ANY religious text. It is the basis of this country.

A “scripture” is a “sacred text” and if the American Constitution is not, then tell me why the f**K not?! Same with the Bill of Rights. Because I am SICK AND TIRED of being told the friggin bible is the only damn scripture!

Go learn some history, and then some philosophy, and then learn some math. Figure out a little bit about culture.

I’ll meet you toe to toe and eye to eye and believe me, you will be the first to back down.

I believe in the America of 1776!

 
#67054 by JNagarya on 4/28 at 6:50 pm: “...Those are not “scriptures”—religious documents.  To characterize them as such is to put them on the wall for worship—but not for rules of contemporary behavior….”

Religious “scriptures” are only “rules of behavior” themselves - and should NEVER be worshipped! They were once given as inspiration through some enlightened person but that doesn’t mean that another genuinely enlightened person cannot make “contemporary” writing of fresh “scripture” in the present or in the future.

The same applies to “constitutions”. People sadly overlook that and thus their downfall is guaranteed. Someone will inevitably come along and manipulate them in their foolish blindness. Thus democracy become merely a knee-jerk reaction to one’s own “emotional” patriotism instead of allowing one’s own intuition and spirit to guide one.

#66928 by 127001 on 4/28 at 8:42 am
(32 comments total)

“Our American Scriptures: The Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights!”

Those are not “scriptures”—religious documents.  To characterize them as such is to put them on the wall for worship—but not for rules of contemporary behavior.

“Patriotism” is emotionalism.  Democracy is not.

Rude interviewers from MSNBC - in the debate, kept saying “time is expired” instead of a simple “thank you”. Then, in the last video, scornfully “where have you been for the last 30 years?” and then laughing. No genuine appreciation of those who would speak for freedom or honesty or respect for TRUTH.

Mike Gravel was laughed at during the ‘70s—when environmentalism was “fringe”.  He succeeded anyway.  He was one of only two Senators up-front against US involvement in Viet Nam.  He was laughed at for that.  He succeeded anyway.

It was he who put the “Pentagon Papers” into the Senate record. 

What’s sad is that the most honest are essentially unwelcome in politics—not only Congress: there’s always the chance that they’ll tell a “wrong” truth and upset the applecart.

There was at least as much arrogance in Williams as there was in everyone on that stage combined.

What right does anyone in the corporate media have to decide who should be on the debate panel?  When did We the People cede control on who we vote for to the corporate media pundits?

Kucinich/Gravel—now there’s a ticket!

Video 1 - Gravel: “Nukes are immoral and have been for (only) the last 50 years”. So, at some stage they were “moral” - when they were actually used in a war - 62 years ago??? Then, in the next war (we’re already in it!), the use of nuclear WMD’s will again be moral???

Video 3 - Gravel: “The military-industrial complex not only controls our government ‘lock, stock and barrel’ but it controls our culture.” So awfully true!!!

Video 4 - Kuchinich: “This country was take to war based on lies….... now, we have to stand for this constitution ...... There is at least one person .....who wants to re-connect America with its goodness .....its greatness ....its highest principles…..” .Sadly, no-one raised their hand to support the impeachment of Cheney.

Rude interviewers from MSNBC - in the debate, kept saying “time is expired” instead of a simple “thank you”. Then, in the last video, scornfully “where have you been for the last 30 years?” and then laughing. No genuine appreciation of those who would speak for freedom or honesty or respect for TRUTH.

Without the impeachment of Cheney and Bush starting soon we will be in war in Iran as we are at war in Somalia.  WE HAVE TO STOP THE BUSHITES

If Gravel is banned, it’s not an “open debate” is it?

So, why would the others stand up for that? Next, maybe we should find reasons to ban one (or more) of them.

Here’s an inspiring report on Gravel’s comments:

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/04/27/gravel-wont-be-buried/

It also gives favorable mention to Kucinich. 

CNN has already announced that Gravel will be BANNED from the next D-wing debate, and Fox has announced that Ron Paul will be BANNED from the R-wing debate (R and D being the two wings of the single American War Party).  The Establishment “media” are certainly doing their part to herd the American cattle into Israel’s middle-east slaughter-house.  “Keep those blinders on!” 

Gravel should treat his banning as a compliment.  And the banning may help us to shift the focus onto the War Party media—our “gate keepers”.  Our media ban or cover-UP more news than they cover.  Is that really the kind of media we Americans need or want?

Raimondo contrasts the cowardice of the Establishment (“mainstream”, corporate, lapdog) media with the courage and insight of the upstream media in his latest column:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin?articleid=10881—our captive media

The upstream media got the Iraq story right from the start.  Tirelessly, it warned against the invasion and debunked the lies.  The mainstream media, with a thousand times as many resources, swallowed the Bush lies and consistently misinformed.

I stand with Kucinich, although too many people ... politicians and Americans ... don’t get the real threat here.

Our American Scriptures: The Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights!

When Kucinich talks about the Constitution, it’s not just about the war in Iraq, or against terrorism. It is the guiding principles that we have grown up with. And it is the guiding principles that we have left behind in pursuit of financial and ego gain.

America became strong because of the Constitution. It will die when it is abandoned.

Rather than mourning those who died at VA Tech, we should be mourning the death of our rights as American citizens, and the death of hope throughout the world.

And I wonder why the current political candidates did not <u>immediately</u> raise their hands to speak up, defend, and state that they support the Constitution of the United States of America.

Because they don’t believe in it.

Whew doggies!!!!!

I can move my lips as that man speaks.

I don’t know who this guy is, but I liked what he says. Too bad we can’t get more of these twits to say what the American people want, and then to ...

“Make it so!”

I’m sick of “nice talk” ...

Just say it. Then do it.

Walk the talk.

Mike Gravel is a TRUE hero! http://www.gravel2008.us/

I almost stood up to applaud him last night! He made the rest of the cookie-cutter candidates squirm like the snakes that they are (with the exception of possibly Kucinich).

Already the main stream media is talking about banning him from future “debates”. How very, very sad. They can’t handle the truth! This country is doomed to just more of the same no matter who is elected.

Google video: 9/11 Press for Truth